Open mike 28/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 28th, 2020 - 124 comments
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124 comments on “Open mike 28/07/2020 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    Sam Stubbs makes a good case for nz buying tiwai smelter,

    I'd add if they can pick it up for a dollar they could sell a share of it to kiwis.

    • Andre 1.1

      Stubbs says the Manapouri electricity will go to waste if Tiwai Point isn't using it. Wrong now, and even wronger when grid upgrades that are already underway get completed.

      Stubbs buys into that low-carbon high-purity sales spin. Wrong. That Tiwai Point is sucking so much electricity from NZ electricity supply is keeping the coal going into Huntly. Close Tiwai Point, and the coal boilers at Huntly will very likely close very soon after. So in fairness, we should be attributing Huntly's coal-derived emissions to Tiwai Point.

      The smelting process also releases CO2 (and other nasties) as a result of the carbon anodes that are consumed in the smelting process. As I understand it, Tiwai Point's performance in this part of the process is middling. Rio Tinto are underway with commercialising an alternative process that doesn't have these carbon emissions, but using that process will require retrofitting the whole smelter. Which will reduce any residual value existing carbon-emitting "assets" may still have.

      The "dollar" price Stubbs tosses around would presumably have hidden in it the hundreds of millions of dollars in liabilities associated with environmental problems at the Tiwai Point site.

      • greywarshark 1.1.1

        'Sam Stubbs makes a good case for nz buying tiwai smelter, '

        The debate has moved on from this and the facts show that it is not an idea to fly. Forget this one, and think of what else could use the workforce of seasoned practical men, accompanied by abundant electricity.

        Rod Oram sizes up the situation well – thoroughly and coolly.

        • RedBaronCV

          Interesting article. The China production is huge- are they aiming for a monopoly hold on the market with all the strategic and destructive potential that implies? Rio may not want to shoot itself in the foot but by default will it be shooting a lot of other industries and national interests. Warplanes?

    • Goodgrief 1.2

      I am really getting sick of these opinion pieces on what is supposed to be a news website. But Stubbs is wrong about Tiwai on so many fronts its really a joke. Tiwai produces "high quality aluminium" because the smelting process is old and really inefficient. The world production of aluminium in 2018 was 60,000,000 metric tons. China has huge numbers of smelters and produces 33,000,000 metric tons while NZ's sole smelter produces 337,000 metric tons. ie NZ produces 0.5% of the world's production. NZ isn't even a pimple on the backside of this elephant. As well as that China has all of the manufacturing infrastructure underneath that to use the aluminium. The NZ smelter has been under threat for years and years for very basic reasons – it isn't making money and its output is minscule. The best thing NZ can do with the power from Manapouri is to eventually connect it to the Transpower grid but that is going to take a few years.

      • Andre 1.2.1

        It's already connected to the grid. It's just that the part of the grid between Invercargill and the Waitaki area wasn't really grunty enough to take the 600ishMW that will be freed up next year. But an upgrade was already underway before the closure announcement, and is no doubt being accelerated.

    • Tricledrown 1.3

      Where are you going to sell the Aluminium and buy the bauxite.

      No economic viability even for the biggest mining company in the World .

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    This happened yesterday:

    Now the thing to notice is that the reporter fails to inform the public what actually happened to cause the injury – or injuries. Even worse, the reporter is evidently too stupid to consider how other parents who leave their kids at that daycare centre are going to feel about the cover-up.

    At the very least the reporter and Stuff's editor ought to be considering the public interest in the situation. Is privacy law being used to perform the cover-up? Then say so! What part of morality do you dorks not get??

    Gems Educational Daycare general manager Gemma Smith said the centre was “deeply saddened” over the incident. “Our focus right now is supporting the child and their family, as well as our centre community.” Smith would not give details about the victim’s age or gender.

    Yes, yes, the ritualised issuance of politically-correct banalities has been rigorously adhered to, we get that.

    WorkSafe said it was investigating. Do you know more? Email [email protected]

    Who do they believe are going to inform them, if not those who were there, on the spot, supervising the kids? Pathetic. Disgusting.

    Smith said the centre would cooperate with WorkSafe and Ministry of Education investigations. “We do everything possible to provide a safe environment for the children we care for. If accidents occur, we have systems in place to offer immediate assistance,” Smith said.

    You can imagine how thrilled the other parents will be to see this. If I was one of them I would yank my kids out of there pronto. I wonder how those parents will react to being frozen out by the manager/owner and media.

    • greywarshark 2.1

      The Worksafe shadow over all – is it more talked about than evidenced? Are they actually operating under their own aegis – making sure that any work they do results in safe outcomes – that match their contracts in a satisfactory and positive manner. Minister Andrew Little this morning sounded like a kindly uncle as I listened while I worked.

      The thing I am hearing regularly from agencies supposed to be arms of the government is that they decide what they will investigate on the test of – 'Can it be tested and won in Court' and so, be a plus mark in their activity success tickbox. If not, 'There is not enough evidence to pursue this matter'. They all need to be pursued by eager citizens, noses to the ground and teeth at the ready to nip them on their fat butts. (Or very thin ones because their personal drives go into the new middle-class memes of personal fitness and setting goals of running marathons, bicycle riding in lycra etc).

      • Tricledrown 2.1.1

        Worksafe has been defunded under National as well as reorganized so the enforcement side hasn't got the funds to investigate or prosecute let alone prevention.Pike River.

        • Gabby

          If the matter has already been prosecuted by the police, what would worksafe be adding?

    • weka 2.2

      Half of Queenstown will know by now what happened. Certainly the parents with kids in that daycare will. There's no public interest here that requires immediate media coverage of the details, and it works against the public interest to publish too quickly and then find out the details were wrong because the people the journo was talking to were still in shock and/or dealing with the event and didn't have their facts straight. We see this with rapid emergencies fairly often now, where MSM rush to publish before they've confirmed what happened. It takes time to get a reliable and truthful narrative.

      The incident happened Monday morning, the report was published late Monday afternoon. I'd expect more information in the next few days once the police, WorkSafe, and the Ministry have started on their processes.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    The (r)evolution pending:

    Yet over 60 per cent of respondents want the economy rejigged towards something better. “Let's use this time to reform the economic system” is what the question reads. A large majority said yes.

    Yet the question is a crucial one, because it really does go to the heart of each major party’s pitch for the election.

    Yet you can bet both major parties will duck the issue! Labour because it can now coast to victory on its poll ratings. National because it is the party of business as usual.

    And if you consider the trajectory of the tourist industry, the change to zero international tourists becomes clear. Visitor arrivals in New Zealand have roughly doubled every 10 or so years since the advent of the jet in the 1950s, and were 3.9 million in 2019. That has now stopped in its tracks.

    National will now start whining like the drug addict who needs their regular hit. How feeble their calls for re-opening the borders are will be amusing to see.

    Labour, for the first time since the fourth Labour Government of David Lange and Roger Douglas, could have the parliamentary numbers to ram through serious changes to the fabric of New Zealand’s economy.

    The prospect of Labour ramming anything anywhere is zilch. Think limp dishrag.

    Minister of Finance Grant Robertson has consistently said Labour, should it be re-elected to the Treasury benches, would look to make the economy better than it was before. Quite what that will mean in practical terms will have to wait until after the election.

    Got that right! Don't spook the horses, Grant! He's done well, to my surprise, presenting centrism as a benign economic model to the electorate, and it complements the PM's mastermind managerial style nicely. Expect them to rise above bland though, spicing it up with a few futuristic signals in the next few weeks – carefully designed not to provoke expectation of drastic change.

    • Sacha 3.1

      Unsurprising to see a libertarian journo like Malpass struggle to articulate any other approach to changing an economy than cutting taxes and protections. No imagination.

      • greywarshark 3.1.1

        An unfortunate name for that journo surely. I'm rereading The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy – it would be a name that might occur there. Fact stranger than fiction.

  4. Incognito 4

    Today, will we see National’s internal polling leaked to the media and endorsed by its Leader? If so, who will be the recipient of the info? What will the National tacticians decide? Will it be a shot across the bow or one in the foot? I’ve ordered extra popcorn.

    • Devo 4.1

      Judith was planning to release them yesterday, but her sharpie ran out of ink

      • Sacha 4.1.1

        To be expected when you borrow Gerry's.

        • peterh

          If the internal polls were good, they would have been released before now,.expect polling figures that did not come off a poll

  5. We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it.”

    Elon Musk has to be one of the most odious examples of malign oligarchy and the new global Mafia

    • PaddyOT 5.1

      Listening to recent interviews with Musk's mate Thiel, is mindbending . It is hard to grasp what he believes in as he makes ambiguous, confusing responses. The world consists of only three doors to choose from ?
      The power of money to have those in power then court you, yet the Mont Pelerin Society describe Thiel as a philanthropist.

      • francesca 5.1.1

        For Musk, the arrogant prat to make that tweet and pass it off as a joke reminds me of Collins and her similar attempt

        Things haven't gone well for the indigenous people of Bolivia since the coup

        • PaddyOT

          Under Evo's term of indigenous socialism has been "the majority population has, for the first time in their lives, lived above poverty.

          The achievements were more than economic. Bolivia made a great leap forward in indigenous rights."

          Evo’s crime.

          “My sin was being indigenous, leftist, and anti-imperialist,” Evo said after being coerced into resigning this week.

          His replacement, Jeanine Añez Chávez, agreed. “I dream of a Bolivia free of satanic indigenous rites,” the opposition senator tweeted in 2013, “the city is not for the Indians who should stay in the highlands or the Chaco!!!” After Evo’s departure, Chavez declared herself interim president while holding up a large bible, though she failed to get the required quorum in the senate to do so.

          Maybe Collins sees herself as a Chavez when she vowed to "crush the other lot", meaning just about all! Would she also burn the indigenous flag that was hung upside down behind Mueller while ripping the UN Agenda 30 to shreds. Could Collins stick to NZ alligning to the seventeen 2030 goals ? Can you hear her saying,
          "We resolve to build a better future for all people, including the millions who have been denied the chance to lead decent, dignified and rewarding lives……We can be the first generation to succeed in ending poverty; just as we may be the last to have a chance of saving the planet."

        • Sabine

          well he has spoken the truth, nothing more nothing left.

          but hey, green clean electric cars, no fossil fuel mining…..well, when one does not count lithium mining as 'fossil fuel'.

          So he is not joking, he is literally just saying the truth. We can coup anyone.

    • Andre 5.2

      Musk is trolling clueless idiots with a predisposition to think 'Tesla batteries use lots of lithium -hmm, Bolivia has lots of lithium and just had a coup = Tesla bad' who have zero understanding of lithium supply chains and technical details of battery chemistry.

  6. gingercrush 6

    Are you aware on mobile version some of these articles are not readable. I cant read either this one or Mickeys about Labour being better economic managers without switching to desktop version.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 6.1

      thanks. Have moved this to Open Mike so it's easier to keep track of. Lynn (sysop) is aware of the issue, I will let him know about today's one too.

    • lprent 6.2

      Try it again now. Between us, weka and I have both played with the tweet.

      My cell (Samsung S10 running Chrome on Android 10) requested that I whitelisted the page at the client side – probably because it was picking up the tweet. Try to reload the page and see what happens. Also tell me what kind of device you’re using.

  7. Pat 7

    Finally some true vision, reminiscent of old…world leading and full of common sense and undeterred by the fact it hasnt been done before…this is the type of thinking we need.

    • Poission 7.1

      The thinking has always been there,for pumped storage between two natural reservoirs called Tekapo and Pukeko.

      The fly in the ointment was the breaking up of generators,with little thought as to the future beyond shareholder entitlement.

      Sustainable Energy forum’s hydro expert, Alastair Barnett, estimates that the Onslow scheme could provide 5000 gigawatt-hours storage. But a simpler pumped storage system between Lake Tekapo and Lake Pukaki could provide over half Onslow’s dry-year storage with minimal construction cost – the two lakes were originally designed to do exactly that.

      That scheme was precluded by the separation of ownership within the Tekapo-Waitaki hydro scheme. Genesis owns and manages Tekapo, Meridian owns the power stations below Tekapo. Each gentailer manages their part of the resource to maximise profit and shareholder value, not to minimise financial or environmental cost.

      • Gabby 7.1.1

        Who was the bright spark who split them up?

        • RedBaronCV

          Bill English so he could privatise them and grab a large dividend ( repalced by borrowing) for tax cuts for the high earning mates. The electricity industry in New Zealand could do with a ground zero reset and rstructure to eliminate all the market inefficencies of privatisation. 29 power company CEO's – really? We used to run the lot out of the 8 floors of Rutherford house in Wellington.

      • Pat 7.1.2

        Pumped hydro not new or ground breaking but the vision of the scheme incorporating wetlands and the scale are….the impact on the workings of the electricity market in NZ is also a great opportunity to revisit the profit motive, particularly in light of the recent finding on 'spillage' and wholesale pricing.

        There appears a difference of opinion between Barnett and Bardsley on the viability of Tekapo and Pukaki around suitable geology but I expect those differences can be evaluated.

        The cost appears to me to be overemphasised considering construction time is estimated to be 6-8 years…thats an annual outlay of approx half a billion per annum….weve just spent 16 billion on wage subsidies in less than 5 months.

        I heard Orams piece on RNZ where he questioned the ability of (any) gov to plan a multigenerational project however the decision and construction can occur inside a decade…potentially inside the term of one administration.

        In any event, we have wasted numerous years the decisions on long term infrastructure and energy provision and cannot be delayed any longer….and that system must be as close to zero carbon as possible.

  8. Muttonbird 8

    Barry Soper going full conspiracy theory:

    Covid will be omnipresent, the placement of polling booths will be sparse, in larger halls, but there'll be many more of them around the place to ensure, we're told, that you will be able to keep your social distance.

    This at the same time that we're assured there is no community spread, to the extent it's now okay to join the thousands of spectators packed in at rugby matches for hours. But it seems that when it comes to the few minutes you will spend in the polling booth, you will be reminded to keep your distance.

    That's what this is really all about, it's a reminder of who the Conqueror of Covid is and why we should all bear thanks and show our appreciation with a tick in the correct box.

    To be clear, Barry is insinuating the Labour Party has influenced the spacing of polling booths in order to win the election.


    • Incognito 8.1

      As long as there’s no red tape to send subliminal messages.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        Thank heavens incognito we've got you – you're onto it. Probably people will see some red arrows soon and it will show how pervasive the Labour propagamda is. It's all around you, like a red rag to a bull. Better put – /sarc.

    • PaddyOT 8.2

      Probably says alot more about the NZ Herald's quality of trite shite selected to pass off as news. The eyebrows!

    • observer 8.3

      He's been reporting on elections for decades, so I'm sure he knows who really makes these decisions.

      But his readers/listeners might not. So he feeds them BS he knows is false. That fails the most basic test of ethics, and he should be facing disciplinary action from NZME. Lying about our democratic process is unacceptable.

    • Gabby 8.4

      Soapy Baz still struggling with the old this is inside, this is outside thing. Come to the door Soapy, we'll run through it again.

    • Peter 8.5

      If Soper is insinuating the Labour Party has influenced the spacing of polling booths in order to win the election he is an idiot.

      • observer 8.5.1

        I've sent in a complaint. I hope others do as well.

        One sentence (not too rude!) is enough. Soper's piece is not "bad opinion", it is simply false.

    • McFlock 8.6

      The fool thinks that no covid now means no covid in 8 weeks. And yet if we had a new outbreak at election time and hadn't made these plans, Captain Hindsight will be cursing the government's foolishness. 🙄

      • AB 8.6.1

        Yep – that is clearly the thinking behind it. To allow for the possibility that there IS some community transmission in 8 weeks.

        If Soper really wanted to make mischief (which he does), rather than sound like a daft conspiracy theorist, he would argue that this forward planning shows how little confidence the government has that they can keep Covid out and that it's all 'shambolic'etc. etc. Missed opportunity there Bazza – I wonder whether next week's cheque might be going to a more competent propagandist?

  9. Robert Guyton 9

    "“When my eyebrow goes up, it’s a joke.”"

    Comedy (and political) gold!

    Every time those eyebrows rise, she's telling porkies joking.

      • Robert Guyton 9.1.1

        Have you watched the video interview, weka? You must, and especially focus on the end where she addresses "Henry".

        • weka

          I don't normally watch vid of her, but that one is kind of intense. She's trying to make a joke, but her eyes are seriously dark when she speaks to Henry and then she puts a smile on it. But those eyes just before the smile. She's like that earlier in the piece with someone else too (Tova I think).

          Is she always like that?

        • Incognito

          I think I tore an eyebrow muscle when watching that. Did she say Monthly Pie-a-ton? Getting hungry now and licking the salt from my empty popcorn bowl.

          • In Vino

            I noticed that early in the piece her eyebrows went right up as she was saying that she cared about the thousands of NZers about to lose their jobs…

            • In Vino

              In fact, I think we need to note every time in future when her eyebrow rises while she is trying to speak seriously and convincingly. She does it all the time..

              • greywarshark

                Has she got rogue eyebrows do you think? That if studied will give accurate indications of the truthfulness of her statements. Cripes, what a disadvantage for a politician. Some bird watchers in the UK who are more interested in showy stats than being informed experts are called 'twitchers'. I imagine Collins is more interested in numbers of voters rather than deep interest in us as people and citizens, so she is a sort of twitcher; which may explain her eyebrow movements. If it is a Pavlovian response (moving from birds to dogs) she may be unable to control it and so bird fanciers might have to keep their eyes on this twitcher, who could end up going to the dogs! Do hope you followed this. It's all a deep code you know.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                When my eyebrow goes up, it’s a joke.

                Eyebrow up or not, Collins was clearly joking when she said that, but has made a rod for her own eyebrow. Everything she says from now on will be parsed in an 'Are you joking now?' context.

                Under Collins’ ‘leadership‘, the National Party’s puddle of ‘truthfulness‘ has dried up – just can’t trust them. Mind you, ‘She’s a handsome Tory’ wink

      • solkta 9.1.2

        "I don't understand how that's funny, can you explain how it's funny?"

        That was so funny i had to watch it twice. I wonder if someone should explain to Collins why this is funny? I guess she has staff for that.

    • Muttonbird 9.2

      I was terrified she was going to turn to camera and look at me.

      • Robert Guyton 9.2.1

        The Medusa effect?

        • Muttonbird

          This was a sub headline in this story about 10 mins ago:

          Collins hisses at "stupid question"

          Unfortunately it's now been changed to this:

          Collins clashes with reporters over 'stupid question'

      • Robert Guyton 9.2.2

        "Interestingly", when Collins made the claim to her National Party faithful audience, her eyebrows didn't "go up".

        • solkta

          I thought her eyebrows were always up?

        • PaddyOT

          Judith statistics – 436000 and no eyebrows were raised ? Was that a plucked or tweeked guess?
          Maybe she has leaked info because it does not seem to correlate with Treasury's weekly data indicators.

          Prior, Treasury presented at the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) 2020. "We still expect to see a large contraction in growth in the June quarter, followed by a partial rebound in the September quarter, and a further economic recovery afterwards."

          However there was upward activity for June. Treasury responded to the need for the more immediate need of pertinent, economy indicator reports, as complementary to the less frequent quarterly GDP ; hence using the NZAC index ( The GDP not due for this quarter until September 17, 2020).

          "The NZAC does nonetheless point to some upside to those initial estimates. Our initial estimate for June quarter GDP was based on longer periods of time at higher alert levels. We’ve also made a quicker progression to Alert level 1 than what we assumed at BEFU, and therefore activity has been able to resume more quickly.

          High-frequency activity indicators continued to hold steady in July along with other upward expansion indicated on Treasury's dashboard.

          Current Stats NZ statistics suggests to Treasury that, " employment continued to hold up in June (Figure 2). For the week ended 21 June, the most accurate measure (which lags by 27 days) showed the total number of paid jobs up 4.5% on the same week in 2019. At the industry level, paid jobs in the primary industries were up 10.1% on last year, goods-producing jobs were up 2.5%, and services jobs were up 3.1% on 2019 after falling by around 80,000 between March and April 2020. "

          How did Judith calculate her prediction ?

          • greywarshark

            Is it my computer or is that the opposite to a black hole?

            • PaddyOT

              Please explain your comment or are you trying to be pernicious because ……?

              • greywarshark

                My computer shows a completely blank screen in the middle of your comment. When you look at the screen is there a big white space or is it filled with graphs and content you've put up? Please advise. It would be a help for me to know.

                • Incognito

                  I think that is because it is a link to a PDF.

                  Try this instead:

                  • solkta

                    I get this message:

                    Firefox Can’t Open This Page

                    To protect your security, will not allow Firefox to display the page if another site has embedded it. To see this page, you need to open it in a new window.

                    and then a box to click to go there.

                    • greywarshark

                      Thanks solkta I have Firefox but didn't get that message.

                      Thanks incognito I tried that link and got some really interesting artwork snaking over various backgrounds.

                      I'm having trouble with pdfs – can't get many of them. I have to ask my associate what to do and write down in a book so I can transfer the instructions to the particular part of my brain which is dedicated to keeping up with this wonderful technology that is so helpful in showing us how far we have dipped or risen every day, and that is not just referring to Covid-19. Anyway if I don't do it today, it might have changed by tomorrow, and then I have had an hour or so for some other activity that might be more useful. However I will try, so don't give up on me please.

                  • PaddyOT

                    For that link to the quick summary dashboard, the Treasury site only gives the one format link. It also then required giving Chrome app storage permission to download.

                    However, other articles such as the weekly updates, were not embedded with Chrome and have a choice of formats.

                    • Incognito

                      I never went to the website. I simply took your link and turned it into a URL that TS readers can see/read and click on (or not). I was trying to help.

    • I Feel Love 9.3

      Her "It doesn't give my opponents much time to run up to an election, does it?" moment I reckon. She's not very good is she?

      • Treetop 9.3.1

        Muldoon was drunk when he uttered those words. Words of a desperate man who knew it was all over for him.

    • Treetop 9.4

      A leader should not joke about an escape from corrections.

      Does she think it is a joke when someone leaves a psychiatric ward and harm occurs?

      • PaddyOT 9.4.1

        Agree Treetop. She was however in a similar position of trying to escape so needed to divert by flippancy.

        Trapped, she could have said, “I shouldn’t be in this predicament ! Everyone agrees with me. Seperate but equal is great policy ( for my eyebrows )".
        The reporters further questioned, “Everyone? You’re standing alone in here.” She gestures around, “Everyone, you know, the paintings on the corridor wall, tables and the clock all of them think I should be PM .”

  10. greywarshark 10

    I have heard The Telegraph soundly run down and yet have found much in it of value. Yet this latest on Harry and Meghan shows the vicious probing of a mosquito, and too many of such bites can maim its host.

    This from Angela Levin: Just before Prince Harry got engaged to Meghan Markle, he invited me to Kensington Palace for a chat as I was writing his biography. One of the things he was keen to get across was the importance of teamwork.

    If you want to be a success you have to be a team player,” he told me. “You get taught in the Army that you can’t get anywhere without the support of other people. I agree.”

    It seems as if he is trying to establish a reasonable rapport with the media as his mother tried. But is the media reasonable; can it be reasoned with? Or is lurking behind it the malign drive of unalloyed pleasure in malicious gossip, desire for power through knowledge, and overall, lovely moolah – profit?

    • Treetop 10.1

      Harry and Meghan did not include a Covid-19 senario in their plans. The timing was bad for them to make a clean break, more so for Harry than Meghan.

      Harry had issues with how the media treated his mother and a double up with negative media when Meghan became upset about media coverage about her which she did not like. Media coverage became personalised about Meghan and her father and this cannot be brushed off. The Royal family are reliant on the media for their charity work and on tourism to justify the expense of keeping them.

      What is the Royal position on the media "don't explain, don't complain." This could have been modernised and a human element to it. I would have liked Harry and Meghan to have delayed leaving the firm for 3 years.

      Look how the Queen's job has become redundant due to Covid-19. The Queen is 94 and I expect she is enjoying having a bit more rest.

  11. tony 11

    Where can we view the interview with Henry and Tova please?

  12. Byd0nz 13

    I see we have caved in to our Yankee Masters in regard to extradition to Hong Kong, so much for being independent. Better if we dump the spy game and opt out of 'five eyes'

    • Gabby 13.1

      It might have been less confrontational just to be unable to extradite individual cases.

    • francesca 13.2

      How does it work ?

      Say someone from here goes to Hong Kong and ends up murdering someone there, then rushes back to NZ , can't be extradited and we're stuck with a murderer?

      Surely there should be case by case considerations?

      • Byd0nz 13.2.1

        True, but would that be satisfactory to our Master, Uncle Sam.

      • Gabby 13.2.2

        If China executes murderers we wouldn't be extraditing anyway would we?

        • francesca

          Ok if China executes mainly for drug trafficking, and murder , we still end up potentially protecting rapists , fraudsters, criminals as well
          Either way we could end up with undesirables evading justice

    • observer 14.1

      I did plenty of stupid things when I was 14, and 18 (or 28 or 38 or … OK, never mind).

      I certainly won't condemn him for that. But he – and above all the National Party – need to accept that they made a silly decision to have a high school kid as a candidate, and they can't have it both ways: get a pass for being a teenager OR don't get a pass, because you're ready to be an MP. But pick one.

  13. Gabby 15

    He was only 14. Mind you, now he's only 18.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1

      Maybe William Wood (opposition National Party candidate for the Palmerston North electorate) shouldn't be punished politically for a 'mistake' made four years ago, but…

      "A candidate has been removed from the Labour's Party list following anti-Islamic tweets he made seven years ago."

      • Incognito 15.1.1

        Oh come on! It was a joke; he raised an eyebrow.

      • Anne 15.1.2

        Its more about selecting a rude, green (as in naivety) inexperienced teenager whose brain is still not fully developed.

        You can almost read their simplistic thought process:

        he'll bring in the votes of the 18-20 year olds.

        He'll do nothing of the sort. Half of them couldn't care less and won't vote. The other half will more than likely go with Labour because they are promising better training and employment opportunities for the young.

        • Treetop

          I just hope he has a good support system as he is on the young side. He has guts putting himself out there. A lot of seasoned MPs have been known to struggle. Politics can be dehumanising.

          • In Vino

            As a secondary school teacher, I have seen heaps of 16-yr-olds who possessed more understanding of experience and wisdom than many 30-yr-olds.

            Unfortunately, the minute William Wood opened his mouth, I excluded him from that category.

      • Chris T 15.1.3

        The Labour person made them at 29.

        • Muttonbird

          Perhaps you are hoping for another William Pitt the younger?

          • Chris T

            I'm not hoping for anything.

            Have no idea who he is.

            How old was Swarbrick when she ran for the mayoralty?


            • Drowsy M. Kram

              22ish – it's a well known truism that females mature earlier than males.

              "The Newcastle University study showed that girls’ brains mature faster than boys’ brains because their synaptic pruning process finishes between the ages of 10 and 15 years. In boys, however, the process doesn’t end until age 20 to 21."

              • Chris T

                Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25. Guest host Tony Cox discusses the research and its implications with Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist and co-author of the book Welcome to Your Child's Brain.


                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Swarbrick's brain developed early, whereas Wood is a late ‘bloomer‘?

                  COX: Is there a difference between males and females with regard to their brain development, particularly in this age category?

                  AAMODT: Females' brains develop about on average two years earlier than male brains, so you're more likely to have a late developing male brain than female.

                  • Chris T

                    So you have proof Swarbrick is below the average 26?

                    I’d guess no on the age restriction on her weed bill

                  • Chris T

                    "Swarbrick's brain developed early, whereas Wood is a late ‘bloomer‘?"

                    What is the proof of this

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      You're quoting a question, not an assertion, and you brought up Swarbrick @

                      I'm not following your question @10:31 pm.

                  • Chris T


                    So going by the scientists link then both Swarbricks and the Nat idiots brains would not have been fully developed, when entering politics.

                    So hey. Both the govt and the opposition pick under developed brains

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      If you're choosing Swarbrick and Wood as examples, then it's only political parties in opposition that pick under-developed brains.

                      Swarbrick's brain may have been "under-developed" when she became an MP at age 23 – if so then what I'd give for that level of under-development! She is, however, the youngest person to be elected to NZ's parliament since the opposition National party selected Marylin Waring to stand for the Raglan electorate in 1975.

                      Of course it might just be pure coincidence that the two youngest MPs in the modern history of NZ's parliament are women. You have to go all the way back to 1906 to find anyone younger than Waring, and people didn't live as long in them thar days.


                  • Chris T

                    That purely comes down to opinion of her ideas.

                    You obviously agree with them, so to you she wasn't under developed. Others don't.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      That purely comes down to opinion of her ideas.

                      You're jumping to conclusions (a common characteristic of the under-developed) – I'll vote 'support' in the End of Life Choice referendum (promoted by ACT's David Seymour), but I’m (still) genuinely undecided on the Cannabis Legalisation and Control referendum (supported by the Green party's Chlöe Swarbrick). And yes, I will Party Vote Green.

                      I couldn't persuade Swarbrick to partake in an MRI brain scan, so had to resort to other objective measurements of achievement to inform my conclusions about her level of development.


                  • Chris T

                    I am actually in the same scenario with the EoL and weed referendum

                    EoL yes, Weed still humming and harring over.

                  • Chris T

                    The difference is I doubt I would ever vote for the Greens


                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      I've voted Green for a looong time, but it wasn't always the case, so never say ‘never‘. As long as you vote, it's all good. smiley

                    • Rapunzel

                      I'm unlikely to vote for the Greens but that is no excuse IMO for this sort of mindset in someone so young – how usual is it for a then 17 to be that determined to push themselves into politics The choice of those politics leans to the right as does it appears the couple of incidents shows a determined certain mindset. Set beside the observation by Politik that certain National MPs in safe seats are reckless with their behaviours & lacking in personal responsibilities – the "twins" Barclay & Walker, Falloon, Muller's misplaced personal confidence. These people have had approval from the National Party none of it speaks of interest in serving wider NZ

  14. gingercrush 16

    Works now. Samsung Something

    • Muttonbird 16.1

      The details are pretty important in order for the admin to fix it. This site isn't sponsored, it consists of very few very dedicated people.

      It would be a great help if you didn’t trivialise and paid attention to your device, operating system, and browser so The Standard can make your experience better.


      • Treetop 16.1.1

        I have just been able to reinstall click to edit. I lost it a few days ago.

        People try to help me and it goes in one ear and out the other.

  15. greywarshark 17

    Prince Andrew embroiled in allegations of relations with under-age girls. Woman accused of organising young girls for sex.
    Jeffrey Epstein ex-girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell charged in US Jul.3/20

    All very modern. Yet concerned women and men were fighting to stop exactly the same thing in the 1800s.

    Part of an interview in 1885 between 'the campaigning editor of The Pall Mall Gazette, William Thomas Stead' and the head of London's Criminal Investigation Department, Howard Vincent.

    "But", I said in amazement, "then do you mean to tell me that in very truth actual rapes, in the legal sense of the word, are constantly being perpetrated in London on unwilling virgins, purveyed and procured to rich men at so much a head by keepers of brothels?" "Certainly", said he, "there is not a doubt of it." "Why", I exclaimed, "the very thought is enough to raise hell." "It is true", he said; "and although it ought to raise hell, it does not even raise the neighbours."

    Stead, to stir the public and prove that child slavery was being condoned, purchased a 13-year old girl from her mother for Five pounds, and took her out of Britain to France. For his effrontery in bringing this to public notice he was charged, taken before the Courts, and sentenced to three months imprisonment.

    Josephine Butler aided by her husband had been devoted for years to the cause of helping young girls and women from being discriminated against by the justice system in the cruellest way. A Bill was passed in 1885 that set standards as to higher age, and other protections. Then the fervent campaigners went further and began to attempt purist conditions going to higher levels in controlling sexuality, a moral outrage movement.

    The passing of the Criminal Law Amendment Act led to the formation of purity societies, such as the White Cross Army, whose aims were to force the closure of brothels through prosecution. The societies widened their remit to suppress what they considered indecent literature—including information on birth control—and the entertainment provided by the music halls.

    Butler warned against the purity societies because of their "fatuous belief that you can oblige human beings to be moral by force, and in so doing that you may in some way promote social purity".

    Her warnings went unheeded by other suffragists, and some, such as Millicent Fawcett—who was later Butler's biographer—continued to combine their activities in the feminist movement with the work for the purity societies.;_1850%E2%80%931864

    I think this example makes a point about now and not being extreme in PC speech bans, with moral crusaders becoming over zealous about words and behaviour being over-censored. If we could strike the right balance we could live more harmoniously.

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