Was listening to Shearer on Morning Report. Just realised that my jaw has been sore as I have been clenching my teeth in trepidation that he might trip over his tongue. Whew. He hasn’t been THAT bad. Some good points made.
Especially the comments about vested interests in the real estate industry making a lot of money out of foreign sales.
Best form of defence is attack. Question the motivation of these opponents.
Just heard a bit of Him defending Labour’s latest move on housing, interestingly someone here was having a nit-pick about Dave (the incumbent),calling the policy ‘his’ the other day,and, that’s the only point where he stumbled having to self edit meant that this came out as ”my/our policy”,
Dave,(the incumbent),has come along in leaps and bounds in being able to deliver the message without the aaah ummm extended silence that punctuated His earlier efforts,
He still tho has one major problem in that those that didn’t get their Dave,(not the incumbent),into the top spot still wont accept Him as leader with a large full stop…
The closer we get to the election, the less indifference Cunliffe supporters will show, I reckon. Whatever their feelings about the leadership, I’m confidant the prospect of knocking off Key will be enough for most Labour supporters to put the party, and NZ, ahead of their antipathy toward Shearer.
There was no antipathy towards Shearer to begin with. Just a belief that Cunliffe was the better candidate. The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.
Knocking off Key has always been the number one priority. There’s no reason why Shearer can’t do it, and I know of no-one who won’t be cheering him on. If he has the nous to stop listening to Cunliffe’s detractors and places Cunliffe back on the front bench where he belongs then all the better…
And then it will be too late to get rid of him if he fucks it up. And then we have 3 more years of a bunch of sell it all megalomaniacs, better he stands down now, in deference to someone who can at least string a sentence together, without stumbling ad mumbling all over the place. And his preoccupation with the word ‘I’. Someone needs to tell him that there is NO ‘I’ in TEAM. And he NEEDS a team to win and at the moment that is the biggest missing link in the Labour Party at present. So no team no win!
But without a team he’s just another also ran. Who will lose his shirt, and us our assets, there is too much at stake to have a NON team player in charge!
+1. Absolutely. Someone seems to have told him he should say “I” to show he’s in charge, or something. It needs to be “we”. It’s a team that makes policy, not Shearer, it’ll be a team that gets elected and implements policy.
No need to compete with Key by saying “I”. It’s fine for National to continue to show they’re all told what to do in every area of policy by a dodgy money trader.
I know of no Labour Party member who used that term. Even so, it was ultra mild compared to what some were calling Cunliffe. You do have a very selective memory sometimes McFlock.
You missed me. And I have, until this time, voted labour for the last 40 years. But not this time. Why should I vote for someone who does not give a rats arse about us, who is only interested in being the leader, even if the fucking shooting box goes down the crapper. And that’s what Mumblefucks legacy will be! The man who sank democracy in NZ, for a pay packet, and a fucking title. Way to go Shearer!
So much for Anne’s “I know of no Labour Party member who used that term”.
So much for this bullshit about nice people versus intractable careerists who would bring labour down to keep their jobs for three more years. Maybe if you guys can get over yourselves, then you could help the Left get somewhere rather than feeding bullshit to jonolists.
Awwww CV, just because they’re tossers (if they even exist as a distinct group that is as entrenched as the acronym implies), you wanna be a tosser too?
Now what did you learn in kindy about that approach when you wanted to play with truckie and another kid wouldn’t let you?
Felix: not really. I’m pointing out she was wrong, that her perception was off. The cunliffe-crowd have given much more than they’ve got in dirty behaviour, if comments I’ve seen here are anything to go by. And if comments here aren’t anything to go by, then that speaks for itself.
Anne, I thought Shearer not sprinting to the front of the hall at the GCSB meeting to grab the mic, instead allowing Cunliffe to speak and applauding what he said was an indication that he trusts Cunliffe, so maybe the front bench isn’t out of the question.
Hear, hear, Anne. I ventured into David Cunliffe’s office today to pick up some flyers to be delivered re the Power N Z meeting this Saturday at Kelston and walked out feeling generally despondent. I keep hoping that DC will be back on the front bench very soon.
Hey, cut it. You silly pawn.
Stop, for goodness sake, framing it as “anti Shearer = pro Cunliffe”.
You are eating the lines of the TV3 news-creators and Robertson.
All Labour supporters want a fairer society and to urgently roll back the inequities driven by Key & Co.
How fucking dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that. My attitude towards the leadership is driven by that one cannon.
Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying … Let us not change anything.
That bullshit has us heading to an election defeat and three more years of Key and a very unfair society.
Yeah, because typos or incorrect spelling are really important right now.
“Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.”
But bad12 didn’t refer to the standard, so it’s reasonable to assume he meant all Cunliffe supporters and all Labour people who have criticised Shearer.
There are very good reasons why the dominant narrative here has been anti-Shearer. I think you are one of the few people who doesn’t get it.
Eeeek, how did i get into the conversation this far into the debate Dave V Dave, umm no my previous comment didn’t mention the Standard, but, the basis of my comment when it comes to the acceptance of the incumbent Dave is solely based around what i have read here at the Standard,
In the real world i don’t tend to have conversations with Labour supporters about who they support as leader, as i am not a Labour voter nor member such inquistions would possibly be seen rightly or wrongly as stirring…
But when B referred to “all Labour supporters”, it is reasonable to assume that those who comment here are a subset of that, no? Including B? Unless of course B is just another commentator overly concerned about the leadership of a party they don’t even vote for.
I get that there are good reasons to not be particularly impressed or awed by Shearer as leader, but no, I don’t get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
If you think that the leadership is not a pivotal issue and that Labour is still on course for victory, of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
Rhino referencing a woodchipper was extreme. The extreme end of behaviour here, but I still don’t get it (even in jest). I don’t get how people can call a simple internal equality policy political suicide, especially this far out from the election. Nor do I get why people complain that not mentioning state housing policy while announcing other policy is a sign of closeted neoliberalism.
Criticism, that I can understand. But jumping at ideological shadows like some sort of lame “ghost hunting” reality TV show? Nah, I don’t get it.
“I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.”
Pretty simple. Many see the problem within Labour (the ABCs and Shearer) as preventing any shift away from the neoliberal clusterfuck are are in. This time period will be remember as the second time in my generation that Labour betrayed the country. It’s not as obvious as the 80s, but we’re in a holding pattern now waiting for the ABCs to retire or die. We can’t afford that wait.
Bigger picture McFlock. It’s not about Shearer, it’s about why Shearer is leader at this point in time and why nothing is being done about it.
Putting aside the vexed question of just WHO should be sitting in the leaders chair for the moment can i ask you Weka if you firmly believe that, just to be topical, Labour would have a different housing policy than the one announced???,
Would David Cunliffe have a different ‘flagship policy’ and if so can you cite such a policy difference???
The leadership of Labour where i am concerned is one of who can sell Labour to the electorate the best,
As a supporter of those way further left than Labour i have to realize that to make any gains which betters my level of society, my class if we want to be ugly but totally realistic, Labour will be the party of Government that such gains if they can be made must be chiseled off of,
Much of the denigration of the current Labour leader seems to me to be more propelled by those who want the party to be something that it just is not,
How different in issues of ‘bread and butter’ would Labour be if it swapped one Dave for the other Dave, i would suggest that there would be very little difference as the middle class have grown Labour have grown into being middle class with it and are thus intent on formulating policy that definitely benefits that middle class,
Labour as a % of the party vote are then quite naturally a party in the 30,s as far as % goes, the Green Party, Mana Party, and, Maori Party hold the 15% of further left than Labour support that MMP allows the freedom of choice…
I agree with much of that bad, and like you am fairly pragmatic in that I’m not expecting Labour to be moving radically left any time soon. So do I think that under Cunliffe Labour would be making different policy? Not particularly, but I guess there would be more room to move left (as opposed to the very thin space now). My point was more that it looks to me like the people in power in caucus would rather be in power in opposition than allow change to happen. That’s the betrayal. They’ll let NACT have another 3 years while they’re playing stupid factional power games internally. Don’t know how the membership can stand it.
Bigger picture, okay:
Labour policy is pretty good so far.
Ideal government will involve Labour + greens + mana.
Greens are likely to get 10â15% of the vote.
Therefore labour needs 35â40% of the vote, so anything mana gets above that is gravy.
Currently, 35% for labour in a campaign is easily doable. 40% would be a big stretch of probability, but not so much in a year’s time. Things change.
So, what’s the big deal? Why do people get so worked up, calling commenters “pawns” or tools of TPTB. I don’t get it.
Yeah, let’s just trundle along, tralalala, not to worry, she’ll be right.
I suppose the big deal is that as bad as things are now, another 3 years of NACT will do irrepairable damage to that country. Exponentially more than they have done now and than they did in the 90s.
Someone said a while back that it was ok for the left to limp over the finish line to become the next govt. What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to risk losing the next election, given what is at stake. You above post makes it sound like, oh it would be nice to win, but it’s not really that bad if we don’t. For me it’s much more critical than that.
But there is no move that would guarantee a lab/grn government. After a certain level, you just have to admit that some things are out of our control.
Would [insert here] be a better speaker than shearer during the campaign? Possibly/probably. Would that person also have some quality or problem that will be done to death by the jonolists? Yep. Would they make bad moves, as well as good? Yep. Will these be blown out of proportion by the supporters of failed candidates as well as jonolists? Probably. Would garner/gower still foment the “imminent ruction within caucus” line? Yep. [Insert here] might be able to improve the polls, but then again a new leader has new targets to hit.
So yeah, Shearer’s not perfect, but nor will his replacement be. It’s not a case of “she’ll be right”, it’s a case of recognising that point where “constructive criticism” becomes “cheap invented bullshit for jono, otherwise pointless”.
McFlock, of all the things you don’t understand, this is the biggie. It’s not that Shearer isn’t perfect. It’s that he is really bad at his job. See the difference? Even if you don’t think that he is, surely you can understand that people that do think this are really frustrated (given what is at stake) and might be more angry about the situation than you.
Good to see Phil Twyford posting in the Housing Policy thread. Liked this
Even if he were really bad at his job (which I don’t think he is), no, I don’t get how people can’t understand that they’re getting so worked up that (and I seriously believe this) they’re hampering any chance of a left wing government much more than they think Shearer’s performance is.
This isn’t a traffic accident or similar emergency, where we’re all trying to think through a massive adrenaline rush that hampers our perceptions and if we don’t act this second people die. We are all sitting in front of some manner of VDU with an input interface of some kind. I seriously don’t get how people fall into a state of hearing a competent performance on the radio and the main thrust of their comment is how they were waiting to be dismayed. That can’t be doing their blood pressure any good, and it’s not Shearer’s fault. It’s their own.
Some people really need to take some time off the political news and gossip, and just chillax for a while.
felix:
1 is down to your perception, and 2 is a baseless assertion that merely serves to justify your opinion. Basically, 2 means that in order to have someone in the top job next election, Labour need someone who is outstanding in all facets as leader. There is nobody in caucus like that, so you might as well just have a smoke, enjoy the view and put the blindfold on when the time comes.
“Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying ⊠Let us not change anything.”
Not so, Boadicea.
My preffered leader is Cunliffe, though I’m leaning toward Little. However, I have consistently said that policy is more important. And I have also consistently said that the leadership is a done deal. Shearer’s it for better or worse.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
“How dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that.”
Whether you remember or not, many commenters here have said things like ‘not voting Labour till they change the leader’. What I said is that I belieive that atitude will diminish as we get closer to the election. I hope I’m right.
I have never called David Shearer names, and my anxiety about Labour under his leadership has always been based on the fear that the party has been hijacked again and is in the process of being neutered. If that fear still persists by the time of the election I will neither vote Labour nor assist Labour – I will instead vote either Green or Mana. Politicians are there to represent us. They are not there to be proxy rulers on behalf of people who do not give a damn about us.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
As opposed to a concerted media effort by his colleagues to attack and discredit him using lines around a non-existant coup, even before Conference had finished?
I Have called Shearer names and I stand by what I said. Shearer is a ME, ME, Politician he uses I instead of WE ALL the time.
CunLiffe on the other Hand has the ability to explain the most complicated shit in layman’s terms so ALL voters can understand him. Key is shit scared of Cunliffe. And not only that He would wipe the floor with Key in a debate. God help us with Captain Stutterbum in the debates!
That’s a galling assumption to presume the loyalty of all us volunteers, no matter what. That’s precisely the attitude that has seen members walk away over the last decade – or haven’t you noticed?
Every Labour Party member has a duty to hold the leader to account. And to support them when they perform. Indeed according to our constitution we now have the right. And so we do, including here. We invest volunteer time and expect results. Leader: deliver.
Instead, the Labour Party by every single measure is failing. Funding. Profile. Coherence. Membership. Media management. Polling. You can offload blame for that to Cunliffe loyalists all you want.
But in fact yours is the attitude that needs to change: blind loyalty – and you expect come election just press the political-guilt button again. The Labour Party is a walking hollow corpse, and those electrodes don’t work any more. With your expressed attitude, the best chance for Labour to do better is for you and people like you including caucus to look in the mirror and tell the truth.
Hear Hear! to that Ad.
I regard my vote for Labour’s 3rd term to have been partly due to “blind loyalty” and a vote for the least worst option at the time.
Not again. There are actually other options.
Thus far, I’m BEGINNING to see some good initiatives coming from Labour, and a SLIGHT improvement in Shearer’s performance, but UNTIL a few of them at least start to realise they don’t have some divine right to my vote, acknowledge more openly that the neo-liberal agenda has not worked and that they will at least explore alternatives – they’ll not get my vote again.
More than that, they sure as hell won’t get my membership or financial support again until they’ve established a decent sort of record.
Thanks, Ad and Tim for offering those words, which actually seem to confirm my point about the antipathy toward Shearer. Ad, it gives me heart to know that there are folks like you out there who can be persuaded to support Labour if the circumstances are right. For me, that’s policy. For some people, it’s leadership. I really hope that come election time, we’ll have the best of both and a better than even chance of changing NZ for the good..
BTW, if you’d read my comments down the years, you’d know it’s not blind loyalty that drives me (or, I suspect, anyone else). It’s a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, giving the lack of a mass supported socialist alternative. The LP is not within cooee of the kind of party I’d like to be in, but I keep trying in my own small way to move it to the left.
“Itâs a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, …etc.”
TRP – we’re in agreement, except that my point is that there is now (almost) another alternative for that ‘mass’. What’s required is for Labour to step up: to demolish the little Hipkins hissy fits; to spark when required; to hold the bovver boys in check when it’s quite obviously counter-productive, and release them when its not; to publicly and vociferously denounce the Natz bullshit at each and every opportunity (without delay – given the 24hr spin cycle – and there have been plenty). I realise the opportunities are precious – given the state of the MSM and its predisposition – which makes that all the more important.
So far – in the scheme of things, there are better alternatives. I MIGHT (at a very very very small pinch – or should that be a large one) be persuaded to give Labour another chance. Given the record so far, and after almost a lifetime – it’s not likely in 2014.
99 to 1 – that could change – I.e. NOT Labour.
I don’t think I’m a masochist – or a martyr – right now, that’s what would be required to even consider it
Shearer has been unable to articulate the new housing policy clearing. For the last 18 months, his performances have been cringeworthy. There were those of us who were prepared to give him a chance, but with polling staying around 31%, there is no way that Shearer can lead Labour to victory.
A third term National Government simply cannot be an option.
Worth keeping an eye on this thread : http://johnquiggin.com/2013/07/28/oz-nz/ where Aussie economist John Quiggin is looking at the comparative performance of NZ/AUS performance post war.
Wellington getting rocked by a 5.x earthquakes and a cluster of 3.x.
Pete George using an evidence free approach to everything. Perhaps he should retrain as a jonolist? I posted that Jenny was wrong in saying Shearer said anything “angrily”. He didn’t. Having listened to the video Jenny referred to, she appears to have confused someone else intejecting with the words “not a review” with Shearer. And for the record, Pete, you really are a retarded fool if you think Jenny’s silly claims being repeated on TV3 wasn’t at the core of my post.
Jon getting spied on by the NZDF is disturbing. Particularly since it appears that the only reason for doing so is to prevent embarrassment. I have been known to have the odd beer with Jon. Offhand I cannot think of anyone less likely to want to cause soldiers harm. But he does seem tenacious about digging out dodgy shit. Definitely a journalist…
The NZDF revelations are extremely disturbing. It reveals a distinct lack of understanding of democratic principles in the upper hierarchy. You can’t save democracy by undermining democracy, fellas.
Now we now how John Armstrong gets off – a pap piece on Simon Bridges.
To think that our politics must be reported in terms of applauding Bridges’ entirely unremarkable and boringly prosaic “elder gentleman” jibe, as though it were Churchillian.
Armstrong seems to be engaged in a wilful dumbing down. Why else right this shit as major stuff ?
It is becoming more apparent that between them the Heralds Fifth Column of commenters are producing pieces in that particular shoddy rag, working as a tag team in the vein of Labour must do this while pimping for support for the likes of National’s Bridges and the equally as awful Jamie Lee Ross, (who has something extremely ugly lurking just beyond His frontal lobe),
Sooner or later as the fashion dictates the Herald will hide it’s on-line edition behind a pay-wall which will be a joy as i wont be tempted to read their utter sh*t Fifth Column political jonolism anymore…
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future… As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZ’s sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasn’t already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
As part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa. Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out “bigot” chant, “racist” chant, “hater” chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
A few days ago, apparent support for something like this position was tumbled on within the late historian Michael King’s book A Short History of NZ, written a decade or so ago. In it King refers to Maori as New Zealand’s first indigenous people. What would King mean by that? It implies more than one, obviously. It implies that there are or will be other indigenous people subsequent to Maori. I read around and around the particular piece to try to glean some more to help paint the picture but couldn’t locate much to assist… (no longer have the book so can’t reference but it was in a post-WWII chapter around what the govt was doing with the dept of native affairs I think)
‘Indigenous’, from it’s literal meaning would tend to suggest that none of us are, indigenous that is, none of us occurred here naturally as we all came from other places,
Maori with the literal translation that i have, ‘Normal’, would seem a better descriptive, your debate of course is around what a Pakeha academic has chosen to label Maori as, i doubt many Maori have or do use the term indigenous…
Your plan to get rid of the Treaty won’t work – others far more bright, well read and intelligent have tried and are trying. Why not try the honest approach and just put up your agenda instead of lurking around it – it’s pretty obvious anyway but being honest would at least give a true reference point to begin actual discussions – may I suggest a list would help.
Have to agree. Vto, yet again your comment skirts around the issues making them vague enough that it’s hard to know what your actual point is. So I’m guessing that you are referring to the people that believe various theories around pre-Maori settlers, but who unfortunately (a) don’t have any background/experience that lends their views credibility and (b) are often connected to white supremacist groups in NZ or internationally. Then you wonder why the term racist comes up so often.
btw, I’ve had discussions with people and read articles re Pakeha indigeneity that never reference the racist arguments of people like Ansell or Doutre. These conversations ask questions like what does it mean to be indigenous? What are the cultural and spiritual aspects that are associated with bein indigenous? What is the relationship between indigenous and the land? These conversations happen without any need to take anything away from Maori, and for the most part they aren’t based in Pakeha insecurity. Why are you not taking part in these conversations?
You might want to re-consider the circles you are moving in, and the kinds of material you are reading. I also hear Maori who talk with ambivalence about who was here first. If you don’t understand the reasons why they do that, or why they’re not going to engage in the debate you want, then again, you are talking to the wrong people. Until I see some attempt by you to engage with Maori on their own terms, I can only assume you are like other Pakeha that are interested in the things that support their ethnocentric view instead of being open to wider, sometimes contradictory perspectives.
From what I remember King believes that non-Maori can become indigenous, so when he refers to ‘first’ indigenous he is stating his belief that Maori were here ‘first’.
But I would have to see an actual quote, and in context. Maybe it’s actually an editing mistake.
Pretty much the exact same as you weka. Nothing more and nothing less. It is another piece of a very large picture about maori and pakeha place in these islands, that is all.
The reason it was posted is that the idea in King’s statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.
let the placing of the 1,000,000 piece jigsaw puzzle continue ………
Anyway, I seem to remember the last time you started up on this, you referenced someone as supporting your argument, and that person turned out to be known racist and white supremacist John Ansell (and we only learned that because I searched for the audio, listened to it, and then reported back to the ts thread). So I don’t really trust you when you say you read something once. Your ability to misrepresent your argument is now well known. Am pretty sure that by the end of this round we will have demonstrated that Michael King didn’t say what you think he said, that you are misrepresenting his views, and that what you really believe is more along the lines of Doutre and co. I’m happy to be proved wrong, but you never say what you actually think, and then we find bits of the jigsaw hidden under the tablecloth or on the floor.
King as i point out above has mistakenly used the term ‘indigenous’, to be indigenous Maori or anyone else would have had to have been resident here when our little islands split off from where-ever they split off of,
So what is there to debate about King’s mistaken use of the English language…
Hi bad12, thanks for your comment there. I understand your point there but take this as being indigenous within the NZ context i.e. on the assumption that Maori are indigenous…….
Point taken VTO, but working off of an assumption that in its entirety is incorrect leaves you in danger of basing everything else upon that incorrect assumption thus reaching a wrong conclusion,
A far better description of Maori would be ‘first people’ which is entirely unambiguous, it is then easy to ‘see’ that such a first people had ‘property rights’ not just in the European sense but in far more ephemeral areas,
Obviously such property rights do not translate from the Maori into the English in their entirety which is why we still have Treaty issues,
Inherent in such issues is the Maori ”it is mine but it is not mine”, in English that term is totally ambiguous and a contradiction, for Maori hardly so…
“A far better description of Maori would be âfirst people'”
Only if you accept that Pakeha definitions trump Maori ones. If you deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous, then you exclude them from their relationship with other indigenous peoples in the world. And you make this about reductionist biological constructs instead of holitic ones. I don’t see how that helps matters.
Just as an aside – somewhere (and I’ll try and locate it from a uni history paper if I can), there is a U.N definition of the descriptor ‘Indigenous’ which not only suggests the concept of ‘first people’, but also those subjected to some sort of subsequent ‘oppression’ or adverse cultural influence (such as colonisation).
It might be a losing battle to locate however – the attic is knee deep in old notes and books and I no longer own the place.
Here’s indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region,
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
LOLZ, i have never heard any Maori, those in the family or from elsewhere, use the term indigenous, that does not preclude that some might of course,
A bigger LOLZ is your contention that if i deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous i deny them something, along with your lead into that concerning Pakeha definitions trumping those of Maori,
My contention that ‘first people’ is a far better description of Maori when measured against ‘indigenous’ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of ‘first people’ is akin to the American Indian self description of ‘first nations people’,
If you asked my nieces and nephews whether or not they are indigenous i can assure you the reply would be one large HAH???,
Therein lies the disconnect, ‘indigenous’ is an entirely Pakeha concept, ask my lot instead how they come to ‘belong here’ and you will get a recitation of ‘whakapapa’ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Indigenous then can come no closer in comparison than the divide between Maori and Pakeha that has always exsisted…
Well, yes. Indigenous is a European term. And originally I think it was just applied to country of birth. But it is a term adopted by indenous people – maybe more politcal than in everyday language.
As I understand it “First Nation” – also a useful term – is one coined in Canada and applied to indigenous people there.
he First People were believed to be a mysterious group of ancient humans, supposedly the first race of humans to evolve on the planet. The First People were the creators of the Machine and were thought to have been exterminated by a mysterious event. In fact, The First People were Walter Bishop, with possible aid from Astrid Farnsworth and Ella Blake.
First Peoples Worldwide was first developed in 1997 by Cherokee social entrepreneur Rebecca Adamson, as a program of her non-profit First Nations Development Institute. In 2005, Rebecca and her daughter, Neva, founded First Peoples Worldwide as a full-fledged organization in its own right. We focus on funding local development projects in Indigenous communities all over the world while creating bridges between our communities and corporations, governments, academics, NGOs and investors in their regions. We facilitate the use of traditional Indigenous knowledge in solving todayâs challenges, including climate change, food security, medicine, governance and sustainable development.
There is no rigid definition of what makes a group Indigenous, but the United Nations and the International Labour Organization have outlined a few characteristics that usually define an Indigenous group:
â We are descended from the pre-colonial/pre-invasion inhabitants of our region.
â We maintain a close tie to our land in both our cultural and economic practices.
â We suffer from economic and political marginalization as a minority group.
â A group is considered Indigenous if it defines itself that way.
bad12: ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Well, if someone asked where I belong, or where my place is, I’d go into the places my ancestors have been, and their cultural connections etc. Often it’s stuff I don’t find worth celebrating, but, it is what it is.
LOLZ, Karol, we have then come full circle in the debate from what i said in my first comment,
In Maori the closest i can come to the term ‘indigenous’ is in fact the word Maori for which i have a translation to mean ‘Normal’ and in terms of the definition of indigenous ”originating or occurring naturally in a country or region” would seem an adequate fit,
Scholars of the reo might of course be able to submit a far more definitive term of indigenous but Maori does it for me and ‘first people’ seems far more defining than indigenous for those who need some other form of descriptive other than Maori,
Lol, must be a slow day i don’t normally indulge in such wordly debates…
Hereâs indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
That definition comes from biology. A different definition, with regards to people, has been in use for a long time. Sorry if you and your whanau haven’t come across that before, but it’s been used by Maori for ages, including internationally.
My contention that âfirst peopleâ is a far better description of Maori when measured against âindigenousâ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of âfirst peopleâ is akin to the American Indian self description of âfirst nations peopleâ,
Except the racists use it to point out that Maori got here just a bit earlier than Pakeha and therefore don’t really have that much right to be treaty partners or call themselves tangata whenua or whatever.
Therein lies the disconnect, âindigenousâ is an entirely Pakeha concept,
Well by that argument, we can’t use the word ‘Maori’ to refer to people of Iwi decent.
ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Ae, a fairly acceptable definition of indigenous imo.
Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?
“Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?”
no such need
no such claim
Really Karol, that is entirely assumption and projection on your part. Why have you done that? Why don’t you just answer the actual question about King’s point?
We can’t answer the actual question abotu King’s point, because you haven’t posted King’s point. What you’ve done is presented a version of King’s point amongst a whole bunch of other points and it’s hard to know what the fuck you mean. I feel manipulated, by you. You are setting us up to garner support for your covert views, instead of just being honest about what you think. That’s why people now call bullshit on your posts about ethnicity straightaway.
ffs give it up. Everytime. Simple questions weka, simple questions. And now it has happened again – why do you obsess about the personal? Why is every question treated as some kind of pointer to some other agenda that I don’t have? You are like that other commenter above who never ever comments on the issue and only ever on the person who makes the comment.
I recall you saying a while ago that the ‘who’ of a comment is at least as important as the comment made. I would suggest that this feature of your thinking is bananas and is what is taking you down this path of paranoia. Try concentrating on the actual issues.
Correct – it is not important or relevant to creating a sense of place for pÄkehÄ, unless to create a sense of place, that means reducing MÄori which is what you are trying to do. Many have found their place here by accepting MÄori and accepting what happened here and accepting the way the world is now – but not you vto, you continue to try and create division and anger by pushing your views out there as if they were somehow objective and devoid of your own personal baggage – which they aren’t. Your views are aligned with ansell and 1law4all and you diminish yourself by trying to pretend otherwise. I have no problem saying that MÄori are indigenous in all the vagaries of that word, because they fulfill the definition set out by others of what indigenous means.
These type of debates, fomented by you, always follow the same trajectory yet you cannot stop yourself can you? Why? They bolster your twisted view of the world that’s why, they reinforce your preconceived ideas and strengthen your bigotry by providing evidence in your own mind of why and what you already believe. You don’t discuss or debate in good faith – you just use the good arguments of others to help you continue to see the world through a distorted lens.
There’s that paranoia and complication thing again. Try reading the first two sentences in the post.
And perhaps you could highlight which comments in my opening post were about any other race issue other than indigeneity origins rather than yelling swear words in my face.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⊠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
Right there, you start muddying the waters. Because you fail to grasp the significance of the way tangata whenua were colonised.
<IAs part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa.
Really? Citation needed? Because Africaner were major oppressors of the indigenous people of Africa.
And it still doesn’t answer the question why you want to claim “indigenous”‘ status, when it will largely work to blur historical memory about colonisation?
vto, if it’s not important to you, why do you keep raising issues around it?
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⊠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already.
All I can tell from that is this:
1. you post on things Maori-Pakeha from time to time
2. someone (we don’t know who) has suggested on ts that other-than-Maori will soon be designated indigenous (but we don’t know who, by who, or how).
What did you want to happen next?
Did you read the link I gave about Ani Mikaere’s view on Pakeha and being indigenous?
Meta issue (and manipulation set up):
Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out âbigotâ chant, âracistâ chant, âhaterâ chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
Fuck off vto. That’s a classic example of you making an assertion about something but leaving it to the mind readers amongst us to know what you are talking about.
edit: Actually, doubly fuck off, because even when I do respond to the actual main issue you raise, when I take the trouble to do so, you simply ignore that and go for the surrounding meta argument. I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have no genuine interest in the topic, you simply raise the issue here so you can indulge your confirmation bias that everyone who disagrees with you basic premises on race are paranoid hate mongers.
fuck off yourself weka. You see things that don’t exist (see comment just below where I have tried to simplify things).
The issue described was around previous comment on here that rubbished claims that it may be possible for pakeha to be seen as indigenous. Michael King provided some further ballast. But you seem to think that it is a Trojan horse for all sorts of other matters.
Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions – if that were actually true then so fucking what? Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they don’t even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.
“Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they donât even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.”
THAT IS YOU!
If you just accepted it then an actual discussion could be had because the true parameters would be set – meanwhile you continue to dance on the hotplate – aren’t your feet getting fucken hot by now – FFS be honest at least with yourself and the mirror – you are not fooling anyone else.
“Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions â if that were actually true then so fucking what? ”
Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions. Who is a bigot and why? If you can’t answer that then it’s all hot air and diversion.
eg you just said I’m seeing things that aren’t there. I don’t know what you are referring to, because my comment contained a number of points. You’ve had two comments to say what you are referring to, but you’ve chosen not to. It wouldn’t be that hard to be specific, so I can only assume you either have poor communication skills and don’t know what I mean, or you have another agenda. Each time this happens, you leave other people in the position of either guessing what you mean (and then you get all defensive), or just not responding (in which case you get to say shit without being called on it). It’s starting to look like quie a sophisticated means of tr0lling.
“Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions”
If you look closely weka you will see that both the original post of mine and the rehash were framed entirely by a question to posters about King’s intentions with those words. A question. In both. Not an assertion.
Probably most have had a guts-full of the topic by now, but for those who want to proceed on the basis of an actual quote to refer to, here is one to be going on with:
“In that same year (1946) New Zealand still possessed a Department of ‘Native’ Affairs, whose function it was to assist the country’s first indigenous people and, by organising the development, lease and sale of their land, contribute to what almost all New Zealanders believed were the ‘best race relations in the world’.” (p.413 Ch25 The Penguin History Of New Zealand 2003)
For what it’s worth I’m with B12 on this. It’s a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most “indigenous” people these days avoid this distraction by using the term “first peoples” ??
Thanks Clockie, looks like an editorial misjudgement rather than King making a statement about anything.
“For what itâs worth Iâm with B12 on this. Itâs a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most âindigenousâ people these days avoid this distraction by using the term âfirst peoplesâ ??”
On that basis Maori should be excluded from the UN’s Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Sorry, but we can’t just wipe out a whole bunch of things because some people think the word indigenous should only used in its biological sense (I assume that is the objection here).
I’d need to see the context, but the way it reads would suggest that either the Dept of Native Affairs or King believe that the indigenous people were first. Is that a term that the DNA would have used? If not and its King’s choice of words, it seems odd to use them when discussing something from the 1940s. If neither, it’s a redundancy and should have been edited.
Well I suspect they are King’s words and not the Dept of native Affairs from the 1940s. But bear in mind King was discussing this in the 1990s/2000s and not the 1940s, hence the use of his words “New Zealand’s first indigenous people”, when such terms were more widely understood.
And further, I know historians are very careful with their selection of words. It would be interesting to see if King has discussed this issue elsewhere.
No. it looks exactly like what you are doing – trying to erase the status of tangata whenua – the significance of that status is strongly linked to colonisation and its impact. So an attempt to claim indigeneity for Pakeha looks like an attempt to erase all that, or at least muddy the water.
If you are looking for something to name a Pakeha place of belonging, it is in the word “Pakeha”. It is in our forbears’ history. That history includes colonisation – for some of us serial colonisation – Ireland, etc.
Maybe, vto. But, it’s because you are putting a lot of stress on claiming the word “indigenous” for Pakeha NZers. Indigenous is a word in recent times that colonised people have claimed as part of their articulation of the legacy of colonisation.
Any attempt for people of European or other non-Maori lineage to claim indigenous status looks to me to be erasing the importance of the word “indigenous” to colonised people.
So, you may say it is “subjective”. To me it is a matter of logical deduction.
Why do you think it is so important to be able to claim indigenous status? Why not look for a word that is unique to Pakeha experience? Why not just stick with “Pakeha”?
Unfortunately this is what happens in these discussions with vto. Instead of addressing the issues you raise they will post something about what is wrong with you.
I have said before – it is part of a search of pakeha’s place here. Don’t know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that? It may well be that the current status of Maori is affected in that search. It may be completely unaffected. It may be that the term pakeha is enough, as you say. Other factors may arise in the future affecting the question.
One thing is sure – all such questions are met with heavy resistance. The current frame around this debate in NZ is stiff and unrelenting. It is like the frame has been built to not bend or allow for future flex. Such a frame will not bend of course – it will simply break, or be ignored….
The left should welcome these debates, as difficult as they are to conduct, because it is a defining issue for many people not of the left when it comes to voting patterns.
“One thing is sure â all such questions are met with heavy resistance.”
Complete and utter bullshit. Such questions from you are met with challenges to racism. If you can address those issues, then the topic itself will be discussed. Like I said, I’ve had this conversation with people and we never had to get bogged down in all this other shit.
A big hurdle for you now vto is to demonstrate that you are not aligning yourself with the likes of Doutre and Ansell, or if you are just be honest about it. It’s not hard to clarify and I really think these conversations would go better if you did. You’ve identified with Ansell’s views in the past, so it’s not unreasonable to think that that is where you are coming from (even if you aren’t as extreme as he is).
Get off the grass weka, I have never identified with Ansell or whoever the other prick is.
Let me try again from the start ………
“In the past I have suggested that indigenous people in NZ at some point may include pakeha. This has been dismissed out of hand by some commentators here, notably marty mars. In the weekend while reading Michael King’s recent history of NZ, it was noticed that he referred to Maori as NZ’s first indigenous people, implying that there are or may be in the future, further indigenous people. What say thee?”
Now heaven forbid that you can find anything else in there other than what I am trying to say, but give it a crack…..
weka, if you’re around – did you see this rehash? I have tried to lay it out as clearly as I can with the least number of possible misunderstandings, double entendres, alternative meanings, lost or hidden agendas or anything else that might get in the way of understanding what I was trying to say.
I have said before â it is part of a search of pakehaâs place here. Donât know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that?
No nothing wrong with looking for a sense of place. I do that myself in researching and learning about history. But in doing that I see no need to claim “indigeneity”. A sense of place is as much as in where we (and our forebears) have been – its in the journey as much as in the destination.
As I have said before “indigenous” and indigeneity” is now most commonly used as a way of articulating the experience of, and responding to colonisation. And, for the most simple explanation of this, it’s in the wikip definitions, taken from the UN definitions.
There is no single, universally accepted definition of the term “indigenous peoples”; however, the four most often invoked elements are:[7]
a priority in time
the voluntary perpetuation of cultural distinctiveness an experience of subjugation, marginalisation and dispossession
and self-identification
My bold.
Now a search for a sense of place can be done in many ways.
Why do you need to bring in the word “indigenous” to explain Pakeha sense of place.
And to me “place” is as much about cultural and historical place, and places traveled to and from, the travelling as much of the destination.
Why do you think the word “indigenous” should be one applied to Pakeha? Because, the impact of naming Pakeha as indigenous, will negate the aspect of Maori history and legacy that is in bold above – as I have said. The result will be a denial of colonisation and a muddying of the waters.
Karol, I was not saying it needs to be, I am investigating whether it could be. And there is no need for such a position to negate anything historic or muddy any waters.
If the result is that pakeha are seen as indigenous (less the recent colonisation aspect) then there will need to be some honesty in facing up to it. If not then so be it, on we go, honestly and squarely facing the future.
The focus on “indigenous” here is because it is one of manyplaces to conduct that search for place. That is all. There is no ulterior motive.
This investigation you are doing – have you read or referenced any MÄori writers? And if so, can you put those references here – I’d love to read them. And if not, why not?
Just another small point, the colonisation aspect continues to this day albeit under different guises or perhaps disguises is the better word.
vto, if Pakeha are to eventually becomes indigenous, it’s not something that can just be decided and applied. It would be a long process that would evolve over generations. It’s not a policy to be implemented. When you talk about it, it sounds like you think it is just something that can happen now if we want it to.
Personally, I believe that what we currently call Pakeha could become indigenous. I don’t see it happening any time soon because I see one of the core tenets of being indigenous is the relationship of the collective with the land. Pakeha have a long way to go before they will let themselves be part of the land as a culture. Which is a shame because we still have our indigenous roots with us from the UK and Europe and it could merge very well with what is already here (I don’t know how this works for non-Caucasians).
Having said that I don’t generally support discussion of Pakeha becoming indigenous with people who don’t fully accept the treaty and are who aren’t working towards decolonisation. For a start, it’s extremely rude to expect Maori to listen to such conversations when the dominating culture can’t even afford them basic protections form racism, let alone address grievances. Then there is the matter of the very large ignorance about Te Ao Maori by Pakeha. How can we have this conversation when we don’t even understand how Maori are indigenous?
I also find that the conversations tend to go badly amongst people who are not settled in their own Pakeha identities. I feel very comfortable in mine most of the time, even when I feel challenged by issues raised by Maori, but I don’t see most Pakeha being like that. Many Pakeha get thrown by the issues raised by Maori and then seek to redefine themselves in relation to that. That is understandable, but it is something we need to get past.
I also agree with Karol, why do we even need to have this conversation at this time? I know who I am, I know about my place in the world, and my relationship to tangata whenua is always developing and doesn’t undermine my sense of self. So I don’t understand the need to talk about us becoming indigenous in the context of how that will redefine Maori. When you say that Maori may be redefined I smell a kiore.
I would also be interested to know who from Maoridom you have been reading. But who in general you are reading if you’ve never come across the name Martin Doutre. If you’re not reading the likes of him, it may help clear the air here for you to link to what you are reading (or talking with).
As an aside, here are the links to the last argy bargy, where you referenced something said by Ansell.
I’m willing to accept your word if you say that you don’t support Ansell’s premises, but I’d like to see you refuting them when they come up in these discussions.
weka, just seen this comment here. Thanks for the feedback.
I see this, as I say, as something that is about a search for place. It is not a need, it is a curiousity. Well in many ways it is a need – a need for a people recently displaced or tossed out or seeking escape from persecution or oppression to find their feet again. To feel comfortable that their home is their home. I think that is lacking in some ways today. Pakeha don’t feel fully accepted here at times I think. Pakeha still get told to ‘go home’ sometimes.
Our own whanau (the majority ‘wing’) arrived with a full blown culture in place. One fully indigenous to its own previous land. That culture and that community has since been added to by other peoples and subjected to the vagaries of a new raw nation at the end of the world already occupied by another full blown people. It has taken time for pakeha to find their feet again.
It is not something which is decided on by vote of course. It is most definitely something that develops over time. In my opinion that is happening though. It is also a question (pakeha’s place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is ‘our’ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.
…. Some hastily penned further thoughts requiring enhancement and sharpening …….
“It is also a question (pakehaâs place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is âourâ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.”
So nice you are allowing yourself all that vto, almost brings tears to my eyes. If you read some of the comments from some above you will see that it is actually easy to have a sense of place here, a sense of belonging and a sense of peace within your heart about who you are and the home you live in – but that can’t happen when you ignore MÄori and their place in and on this land. It is about working together not replacing – it is about respect and allowing, it is about acceptance and truth. No doubt your research and journey will continue, as it must, until you get one of the basics sorted – the answers are right in front of you if you choose to open your eyes.
I’m sorry this is hard for you vto. I appreciate your latest comment, there is a lot there, complexity, and I don’t feel I can do justice to a reply tonight (been a challenging day today). I think what you have written is worth exploring and is something I’d like to respond to at another time. When you write about things more personally like this it is easier to see what the issues actually are. Thanks.
I have also been curious about a sense of place. I’ve read a lot of research and analysis of it, usually in the realm of “new geography” – an approach to geography that developed in the late 20th century. Basically understanding place is more than just about where a section of society/community/ethnic group has lived.
And there’s ways of understanding one’s place in the world, without trying to ignore the history of racial difference – a human construct with material impacts on lives, where some are dominant and others marginalised.
Some new geographers deal with “race” and place, without erasing the history of racial oppression and marginalisation. It means understanding the historical legacy of Pakeha in colonising Aotearoa.
Some in other countries look at understanding whiteness. RRichard Dyer’s “White” is a classic – about the way whiteness is both dominant and ignored, or rendered invisible.
I have particularly liked the work of Nigel Thrift on place and geography, which also includes the various ways people’s sense of place is influenced by class and other social positions.
And agree with marty mars: thinking about one’s place in the world can’t be done without thinking about others and their place and the relationships between us all.
I do believe that Pakeha NZers are different from Europeans….one only needs to go overseas to realise this. …And I also believe that Pakeha who have been here for generations have very deep feelings for the land and do have the right to a special sort of standing in New Zealand…..From what I can remember Michael King wrote a lot of Maori history and then when Maori wanted to write their own history and told him to go away he was very hurt…..so Michael King went in search of his own Pakeha identity. “Being Pakeha Now” could have been the title of his book.
I personally know of NZers with absolutely no Maori blood who are imbued with Maori culture and understanding and live alongside Maori ….so much so you would almost think they were a Maori in a Pakeha skin ( maybe they have been reincarnated.. ha ha)…
Also I once met a Maori with long blond hair and blue eyes at university who had a Maori name and said he was Maori…when I thought he was joking he spoke to me in Maori and told me his Mother was Dutch and his Father a Maori….
And this is the case of many NZers. You would be hard pushed to find a “pure” genetic Maori .Also many Pakeha whose families have lived in NZ for generations (eg ancestry British whalers who married Maori women) have some Maori blood…..
I also know of Maori who look Maori but you would think they had the mind set of a European Capitalist ( ha ha)
To complicate this even further some new immigrants adopt everything in NZ culture -, Maori language , culture , tramping , mountaineering , fishing , rugby , sport and beer drinking with such an enthusiasm that they are almost more Maori or Pakeha than the indigenous NZers.!!!!…All to the good … I guess in the end what is important is respect.
We all bring subjectivity to any issue. I try toown mine, vto, partly in the language I use. It’s actually part of examining something objectively and rationally, by making the subjective an explicit object of scrutiny.
All I see in your comments is disavowal of your own subjectivity under claims of total objectivity.
I’ve spent a lot of my life learning about colonisation and its impacts – read widely on it (and written on it as part of courses). And I’ve also spent a lot of my time reading “sub texts” – underlying meanings. Part of such readings includes identifying what is not said – always an important indicator.
Yes well North, if you read closely you will notice that Karol’s statement there was her own assumption and nothing to do with my question around King’s reference.
But mustn’t let such realities interfere with our own biases and assumptions eh.
Go somewhere quiet and talk to the land …again and again…. it will give you the answers you seek…King did this at the end of his book “Being Pakeha Now” ….This same land has talked to farmers, gardeners, hunters, sailors, mountaineers , trampers, artists and poets…..in the end it is the land that tells you whether you belong and are indigenous. ….it requires silence and reverence.
Chooky, don’t you worry about that I do heaps of it. It is inferred at my comment above at 7.18. I spend more time alone and on in the land that probably 99% of people. Alone, remote, nothing but land sea sky….. It is possibly one of the reasons this subject is excessively raised by me.
@vto OK ….well and good….Well I don’t see the point in arguing about it…..
….The issue really is whether one lives in harmony with the land and cherishes it and derives spiritual sustenance from it….this is the acid test as to whether one is indigenous or not …
…..Or whether one is one of the ‘NEW VULGARIANS’….an exploiter and
de-sacrilizer of the land , an over- populater , a barbarian speculator , a dirty polluter…whose God is materialism and consumerism and profit….and to HELL with the natural environment.
I don’t like Mike Williams as a ‘Spokesperson For Labour’. This morning he put a size 20 foot in his mouth by commenting on policy on housing purchase dampening with negative comments because it will have an immediate increase effect before Labour can be elected in 2014.
Then on top of bad mouthing positive efforts to help this complex difficult problem, felt worldwide, he then increases the fault by referring to Chinese speculators. First that sounds anti-Asian, second he has not referred to the stats on this which show definite peaks for certain western countries, and third he continues his white-anting of the left. Get him out of the media, he can be assessed as 80/20 in his value to the left, with the 80 being against.
Further to my comment above already I have heard John Bank’s whiny little voice castigating the comment about Chinese as if it had been spoken by the Labour leader. Get Mike Williams off Radionz – deny his right to say anything for the left, publicly disagree with him, present him as a turncoat. And do it now. He is bad news for Labour.
And of course on political comment this a.m. Mike Williams hasn’t much to say about reporting on defence force activity and trying to claim everything as being ‘subversive’. He has said something against the surveillance state. Franks is frankly speaking just himself. You know what to expect from him.
Great. Mike Williams makes judgments on Labour’s housing policy based on his own experiences in his area of town – eg being gazumped by an overseas buyer when trying to buy a home, price of rents in his area, etc.
I tried a while ago RoseT. Unfortunately to no avail. It’s been “from the Right [substitute Mike W, Jose P, etc], and from the Right [substitute Mathew H, Steven F, etc]” for quite some time now.
Mike Williams is increasingly using the “I’m in agreement with you [Mathew, Steven]” kaka.
Maybe spending too much time with Paul Henry or fawning over his friendship with Holmes.
. “There’s an avenue for him [Mr Humayun] to go to the police if the guy refused to pay the fare. But in terms of racial abuse, the threshold is very high.”
Susan Devoy. The friend in court of the rednecks. He sounds determined to stop racial abusers getting convicted. Dies she have a clue what her job brief is?
The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1
The U$ was and is where the implementation of Neoliberalism started. It is the garbage ideology that Yankey continues to follow. What is the result? A once great Nation because of the New deal is now on the point of collapse economically and socially with an immense privatised prison gulag, a corrupt finacial class in bed with a corrupt government, a corporate fascist state in reality and yet our crazy politicos still buy into the American Nightmare, including NSA style spying on kiwis who have contrary political opinions and activists. Why is the U$ so influential? Mainly because it has a huge military presence which we gratefully hide behind to put off China becoming the regional leader in the Pacific and to help us if Asia’s huge numbers decide to invade us.
The American Nightmare Yankey is pushing us to with stripping minimal income rights from the poorest Kiwis and further privatisation:
“The United States of… Class War, Inequality, and Poverty
New survey data shows perilous state of US economy and suffering of a majority underclass”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/28-1
“It’s time that America comes to understand that many of the nation’s biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position.”
“There is no class war. The 99% is in complete and abject submission to the 1% through the phony (D) vs. (R) bullshit paradigm. The working class has been corralled for shearing by the Democratic Party, which is simply a flavor of the Plutocracy Party which runs the United States.
Obama and most of the Democrats are merely reflections of this reality. The fact that the Plutocracy could get Americans to overcome their racism in the election of an African American Plutocracy Candidate is a testament to the success of the (D) vs. (R) propaganda meme.
The working class cannot fight back until it is able to have a voice – and giving it a voice is the thing that the Plutocrats fear most: Hence, billions are spent maintaining the absurd Kabuki illusion that there are two parties in the United States.
It is time to wake up and reject the false D/R bullshit and cast off the self-fulfilling fear that only the Plutocracy Party’s candidates are “electable”.
There will be no change in the status quo until the Democratic Party – the primary tool of the Plutocracy to keep the working class in line – is dis-empowered and left bereft of its national power.”
Is the Wizard of Oz just a shyster in a cloud of green smoke – is he an Aussie is he, is he, Is he an Aussie is he eh? (Old comedy song) http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
Radio nz this a.m.
Oz- Kiwis falling through the cracks in Australia (â16âČâ39âłâ)
09:30 With Maree O’Halloran – the official spokesperson for the National Welfare
Rights Network (NWRN) and the Director of Sydney’s Welfare Rights Centre. Duncan Sandilands – Founder of the Fair Go 4 All campaign.
and
Concept of operationshttp://www.fairgo4all.com/concept/
Further http://www.fairgo4all.com/phil-goff-continues/
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888229
Auckland-born student Diana Drysdale became a military cadet at 13, and has only ever wanted to be in the airforce.
But the 15-year-old, who lives near Brisbane, will not be able to fulfil that dream in her adopted home of Australia because her family will never qualify as residents….
The Australian law change was designed to stop backdoor migration from the Pacific Islands and Hong Kong Chinese, who gained New Zealand residency to settle in Australia. Mrs Drysdale believed that the effect it had on military recruitment was unintentional and undesirable.
“The military recruitment people here say they can’t believe it either. They get applications every week from Kiwis wanting to join. It is crazy.”
Mr Sandilands, 53, served as a territorial soldier for seven years. His frustration with being excluded from the ADF was deepened by his family’s rich Australian history – his great-grandfather was Lord Mayor of Melbourne and his grandfather fought with Australian troops at Gallipoli.
(It is surprising that the strongest claim we have for having equal rights in Australia and being treated with the respect of an allied neighbouring country with diplomatic and economic treaties and as we extend most of the rights to Oz residents, is through wanting to serve in their armed forces. Life sure is queer.)
I’ve often wondered when a NZ gubbamint of whatever flavour is going to ask the Australians when they intend putting the NZ back in ANZAC. At the moment it’s only pulled out on ANZAC day mornings.
The last tune-ty, John Key was too busy sucking up to Joolya and looking for foto-ops so he can reflect on all those hoi pear people in his scrap book after he fucks off into the Hawaiian wilderness.
Tim
And it has been shown from journalists queries on Anzac Day that many young people don’t know that it stands for the combined forces of our two countries. It’s just a word that they don’t connect with NZ at all.
Prime Minister John Key, speaking to ONE News deputy political editor Jessica Mutch in South Korea, says heâs is prepared to compromise with NZ First leader Winston Peters to get further support for his GCSB Bill in Parliament.
âI wouldnât rule that out. What Iâve said is that thereâll be the SOP process, so a Supplementary Order Paper. So when the bill comes back to Parliament, itâll have its second reading. Then what happens from there is the committee stage. At the committee stage, we already know a list of things that Peter Dunne will introduce. Now, in a theoretical world, if NZ First or any other political party – letâs take NZ First – came along and said, âWe will support the legislation if you make these changes,â and they were acceptable to the government, there is always that window of opportunity to make that change,â Mr Key says.
Mr Key told the Q+A programme that his office had approached Mr Peters on numerous occasions, âoffering to sit down with me, the officials, in writing. Weâve put all of those sorts of requests there,â but when asked if the lack of response meant it was unlikely the two could work something out, Key says: ânever say neverâ.
i am pretty sure that i have seen Winston Peters on my TV directly saying that the Slippery little Shyster has not contacted NZFirst on any changes that party would want in exchange for supporting that legislation,
If that is the case, Slippery’s latest is simply Him using the media, and i should put an emphasis on the word ‘using’, to be the Slippery little Shyster we all know Him to be…
I wonder whether NatKey are courting Peters for opposite reasons than they are presenting: In order to discourage people to vote for NZF?
He might be an option against National; and therefore if people are making that choice against voting for NZF and find out there is a chance Peters would team up with National; then perhaps less support, under 5% returned and bingo! Kingmaker no more. Back to Act & co
Glad you ‘got’ what I was wondering, because I see I made an error in my comment, which makes it a little hard to understand! (The second time I wrote ‘NZF’, it should have read ‘National’).
They really are fucking around with the nation’s psyche, our values and our democracy. ~ Well said
Leopard, i will take the Slippery little Shysters new found ‘trust’ in Winston Peters and NZFirst on face value, that face value being that even with the ‘Hairdo’ and the ‘Crim’ one small % of vote loss on the 2011 election result and the Shyster will be Slipping right on out of here,
Add to that no Maori Party in the next Parliament,(all gone-burger), and where have the Rats got left to run,
The only possible way i can see that National and it’s head used car salesman can Govern after November 2014 is with the help of NZFirst,(if they can get 5% of the vote)…
In other words, I am advocating for a moral case for science and innovation funding. It is the same argument that is made for funding culture and the arts although a little weaker as there is little that is uniquely Australian about science and innovation (although the astronomers and marine biologists make great counter-cases).
Science and innovation are good for society and thus we should do it. Forget the financials, society is about more than just making a profit.
This is interesting.
Radionz on Windows on the World which started at 8.20 pm and I don’t know how long it goes has something to say to us. If you can’t hear it on Radionz and I think they don’t have audio rights then you can I think get it by going direct to BBC.
They are talking about Kenya where there is 40% unemployment. Yet there is a vital economy developing. As ours becomes more moribund and the government finds new ways of stripping the poor and poorish of tax while the fat cats put theirs on Cloud Nine or somewhere, this might help communities to avoid going bankrupt as in USA.
A firm in Kenya, and there are Kenyan, Chinese, Connecticut and Danish nationals interviewed also, has developed a way of making payments or accessing money through an ordinary mobile phone. It seems that you buy a credit at one of their offices which is like charging your cellphone. Then you have virtual money wherever you go and that cuts out theft. If you are caught short at a remote location I think they said that you can get a small loan immediately. They have found the system works well.
This may be necessary for this country if the banks are going to screw us. These fancy-pancy new aids to nil balances from these super sensitive money-fly cards are apparently being foisted on us. The Kenyan idea would be a good alternative to having to carry lots of cash if they are going to reform the eftpos and credit card systems against our best interests.
This type of vitality might indicate that areas like this are worth shifting to, as NZ appears to have reached the downward slope of the bell curve and is determined to keep going forward, in that downward direction. Australia is not attractive under their present divisive policies, Oz on one side and us on the other. Might be worth while learning Swahili!
…it has a restricted jurisdiction which must not be abused: it is not an inquisition  NOTE – this article was published before the High Court ruled that Karen Chhour does not have to appear before the Waitangi Tribunal Gary Judd writes – The High Court ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – One of reasons Oranga Tamariki exists is to prevent child neglect. But could the organisation itself be guilty of the same?Oranga Tamarikiâs statistics show a decrease in the number and age of children in care. âThere are less children ...
David Farrar writes: Graeme Edgeler wrote in 2017: In the first five years after three strikes came into effect 5248 offenders received a âfirst strikeâ (that is, a âstage-1 convictionâ under the three strikes sentencing regime), and 68 offenders received a âsecond strikeâ. In the five years prior to ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesnât normally happen in politics. Thatâs refreshing and will be extremely ...
TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the two days to 6:06am on Thursday, April 25:Politics: PM Christopher Luxon has set up a dual standard for ministerial competence by demoting two National Cabinet ministers while leaving also-struggling ...
Hi,Today I mainly want to share some of your thoughts about the recent piece I wrote about success and failure, and the forces that seemingly guide our lives. But first, a quick bit of housekeeping: I am doing a Webworm popup in Los Angeles on Saturday May 11 at 2pm. ...
It is hard to see what Melissa Lee might have done to âsaveâ the media. National went into the election with no public media policy and appears not to have developed one subsequently. Lee claimed that she had prepared a policy paper before the election but it had been decided ...
Open access notablesIce acceleration and rotation in the Greenland Ice Sheet interior in recent decades, Løkkegaard et al., Communications Earth & Environment:In the past two decades, mass loss from the Greenland ice sheet has accelerated, partly due to the speedup of glaciers. However, uncertainty in speed derived from satellite products ...
Buzz from the Beehive A statement from Children’s Minister Karen Chhour – yet to be posted on the Governmentâs official website – arrived in Point of Orderâs email in-tray last night. It welcomes the High Court ruling on whether the Waitangi Tribunal can demand she appear before it. It does ...
Mr Bombastic:Ironically, the media the academic experts wanted is, in many ways, the media they got. In place of the tyrannical editors of yesteryear, advancing without fear or favour the interests of the ruling class; the New Zealand news media of today boasts a troop of enlightened journalists dedicated to ...
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In 1974, the US Supreme Court issued its decision in United States v. Nixon, finding that the President was not a King, but was subject to the law and was required to turn over the evidence of his wrongdoing to the courts. It was a landmark decision for the rule ...
Every day now just seems to bring in more fresh meat for the grinder.In their relentlessly ideological drive to cut back on the “excessive bloat” (as they see it) of the previous Labour-led government, on the mountains of evidence accumulated in such a short period of time do not ...
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Buzz from the Beehive  Melissa Lee â as may be discerned from the screenshot above â has not been demoted for doing something seriously wrong as Minister of ...
Morning in London Mother hugs beloved daughter outside the converted shoe factory in which she is living.Afternoon in London Travelling writer takes himself and his wrist down to A&E, just to be sure. Read more ...
Mike Grimshaw writes – The recent announcement of the University Advisory Group, chaired by Sir Peter Gluckman, makes very clear where the Governmentâs focus and priorities lie. The remit of the Advisory Group is that Group members will consider challenges and opportunities for improvement in the university sector including: ...
Eric Crampton writes – The Reserve Bank of New Zealand desperately wants to find reasons to have workstreams in climate change. It makes little sense. They’ve run another stress test on the banks looking to see if they could find a prudential regulation case. They couldn’t. They ...
Rob MacCullough writes –Â Pundits from the left and the right are arguing that National’s Fast Track Bill that is designed to speed up infrastructure decisions could end up becoming mired in a cesspool of corruption. Political commentator ...
Looking at the headlines this morning it’s hard to feel anything other than pessimistic about the future of humanity.Note that I’m not speaking about the future of mankind, but the survival of our humanity. The values that we believe in seem to be ebbing away, by the day.Perhaps every generation ...
Swabbing mixed breed baby chicks to test for avian influenzaUh oh. Bird flu â often deadly to humans – is not only being transmitted from infected birds to dairy cows, but is now travelling between dairy cows. As of last Friday, Bloomberg News reports, there were 32 American dairy herds ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
What is it with the mining industry? Its not enough for them to pillage the earth - they apparently can't even be bothered getting resource consent to do so: The proponent behind a major mine near the Clutha River had already been undertaking activity in the area without a ...
Photo # 1 I am a huge fan of Singapore’s approach to housing, as described here two years ago by copying and pasting from The ConversationWhat Singapore has that Australia does not is a public housing developer, the Housing Development Board, which puts new dwellings on public and reclaimed land, ...
Buzz from the Beehive Reactions to news of the governmentâs readiness to make urgent changes to âthe resource management systemâ through a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) suggest a balanced approach is being taken. The Taxpayers’ Union says the proposed changes donât go far enough. Greenpeace says ...
I’m starting to wonder if Anna Burns-Francis might be the best political interviewer we’ve got. That might sound unlikely to you, it came as a bit of a surprise to me.Jack Tame can be excellent, but has some pretty average days. I like Rebecca Wright on Newshub, she asks good ...
Chris Trotter writes – Willie Jackson is said to be planning a âmedia summitâ to discuss âthe state of the media and how to protect Fourth Estate Journalismâ. Not only does the Editor of The Daily Blog, Martyn Bradbury, think this is a good idea, but he has also ...
Graeme Edgeler writes –Â This morning [April 21], the Wellington High Court is hearing a judicial review brought by Hon. Karen Chhour, the Minister for Children, against a decision of the Waitangi Tribunal. This is unusual, judicial reviews are much more likely to brought against ministers, rather than ...
Both of Parliament’s watchdogs have now ripped into the Government’s Fast-track Approvals Bill. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMy pick of the six newsey things to know from Aotearoa’s political economy and beyond on the morning of Tuesday, April 23 are:The Lead: The Auditor General,John Ryan, has joined the ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Sarah SpengemanPeople wait to board an electric bus in Pune, India. (Image credit: courtesy of ITDP) Public transportation riders in Pune, India, love the city’s new electric buses so much they will actually skip an older diesel bus that ...
The infrastructure industry yesterday issued a “hurry up” message to the Government, telling it to get cracking on developing a pipeline of infrastructure projects.The hiatus around the change of Government has seen some major projects cancelled and others delayed, and there is uncertainty about what will happen with the new ...
Hi,Over the weekend I revisited a podcast I really adore, Dead Eyes. It’s about a guy who got fired from Band of Brothers over two decades ago because Tom Hanks said he had “dead eyes”.If you don’t recall — 2001’s Band of Brothers was part of the emerging trend of ...
 Buzz from the Beehive The 180 or so recipients of letters from the Government telling them how to submit infrastructure projects for âfast trackâ consideration includes some whose project applications previously have been rejected by the courts. News media were quick to feature these in their reports after RMA Reform Minister Chris ...
It would not be a desirable way to start your holiday by breaking your back, your head, or your wrist, but on our first hour in Singapore I gave it a try.We were chatting, last week, before we started a meeting of Hazel’s Enviro Trust, about the things that can ...
Calling all journalists, academics, planners, lawyers, political activists, environmentalists, and other members of the public who believe that the relationships between vested interests and politicians need to be scrutinised. We need to work together to make sure that the new Fast-Track Approvals Bill â currently being pushed through by the ...
Feel worried. Shane Jones and a couple of his Cabinet colleagues are about to be granted the power to override any and all objections to projects like dams, mines, roads etc even if: said projects will harm biodiversity, increase global warming and cause other environmental harms, and even if ...
Bryce Edwards writes-Â The ability of the private sector to quickly establish major new projects making use of the urban and natural environment is to be supercharged by the new National-led Government. Yesterday it introduced to Parliament one of its most significant reforms, the Fast Track Approvals Bill. ...
Michael Bassett writes – If you think there is a move afoot by the radical Maori fringe of New Zealand society to create a parallel system of government to the one that we elect at our triennial elections, you arenât wrong. Over the last few days we have ...
Without a corresponding drop in interest rates, it’s doubtful any changes to the CCCFA will unleash a massive rush of home buyers. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The six things that stood out to me in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, poverty and climate on Monday, April 22 included:The Government making a ...
Sunday was a lazy day. I started watching Jack Tame on Q&A, the interviews are usually good for something to write about. Saying the things that the politicians won’t, but are quite possibly thinking. Things that are true and need to be extracted from between the lines.As you might know ...
In our Weekly Roundup last week we covered news from Auckland Transport that the WX1 Western Express is going to get an upgrade next year with double decker electric buses. As part of the announcement, AT also said âSince we introduced the WX1 Western Express last November we have seen ...
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to April 29 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. Stats NZ releases its statutory report on Census 2023 tomorrow.Finance Minister Nicola Willis delivers a pre-Budget speech at ...
A listing of 29 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 14, 2024 thru Sat, April 20, 2024. Story of the week Our story of the week hinges on these words from the abstract of a fresh academic ...
The ability of the private sector to quickly establish major new projects making use of the urban and natural environment is to be supercharged by the new National-led Government. Yesterday it introduced to Parliament one of its most significant reforms, the Fast Track Approvals Bill. The Government says this will ...
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Two-thirds of the country think that âNew Zealandâs economy is rigged to advantage the rich and powerfulâ. They also believe that âNew Zealand needs a strong leader to take the country back from the rich and powerfulâ. These are just two of a handful of stunning new survey results released ...
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Te PÄti MÄori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veteransâ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veteransâ affairs spokesperson Greg OâConnor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxonâs management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonightâs court decision to overturn the summons of the Childrenâs Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about MÄori without evidence, says Te PÄti MÄori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. âThe judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last yearâs severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labourâs environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our countryâs most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Governmentâs Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a âget out of jail freeâ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te PÄti MÄori Justice Spokesperson, TÄkuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, MÄori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealandâs good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National governmentâs lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te PÄti MÄori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. âThis act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.â Said Te PÄti MÄori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for TÄmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te PÄti MÄori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mĆ TÄmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with MÄori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Governmentâs democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Governmentâs proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change thatâs great for the planet and great for consumers after her memberâs bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the countryâs books after Teanau Tuionoâs membersâ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his memberâs bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Todayâs advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
Distinguished guests - Â It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Â Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Â Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. âOur Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealandâs hydrogen future, with the opening of the countryâs first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. âI want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealandâs own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealandâs energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. âThe report shows that New Zealandâs emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,â Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where heâll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Governmentâs work to restore law and order. âAttending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealandâs human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the worldâs largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. âThe reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealandâs wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin  NgÄ mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho  Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today.  I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. âOur Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealandâs overseas missions.  âOur diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealandâs interests around the world,â Mr Peters says.  âI am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. Â âOver 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. âIt is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. âOur coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
âChina remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,â Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says.  Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. âRecently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachersâ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul.  âThe Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. âScience, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During todayâs meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. âThe Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in TaupĆ as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the TaupĆ International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. âAnticipation for the ITM TaupĆ Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. âThe coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. âThis project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sectorâs productivity,â Mr Jones says. âThe project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Governmentâs plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. âBenefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Governmentâs commitment to doubling New Zealandâs renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealandâs latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. âOur Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. âNew Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Governmentâs intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. âThe introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Todayâs announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Governmentâs plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. âInflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sectorâs role in the export-led recovery of the economy. âI am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
I was initially resistant to the idea often suggested to me that the Government should deliver an arts strategy. The whole point of the arts and creativity is that people should do whatever the hell they want, unbound by the dictates of politicians in Wellington. Peter Jackson, Kiri Te Kanawa, Eleanor ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Governmentâs support for the revitalisation the sector.  "New Zealandâs wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
A poem from Robin Peaceâs new collection Detritus of Empire: feather / grass / rock. Cereal giving I see a womanâs hands, see her curious hands break a stalk as she walks through the tall prairie, the savannah, the steppe, wherever it was. See her idly bite the grass that ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Booksâ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingwayâs Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)A handsomely produced (debossed cover, lovely ...
The Commissioner's decision validates the longstanding efforts of the local community and ensures that Awataha Marae will be managed to serve the needs of the local community, particularly for hosting tangihanga. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tristan Salles, Associate professor, University of Sydney Examples of Australian landscapes.Unsplash Seventy thousand years ago, the sea level was much lower than today. Australia, along with New Guinea and Tasmania, formed a connected landmass known as Sahul. Around this time â ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Felicity Castagna, Lecturer, Creative Writing, Western Sydney University Day Day Market, ParramattaPhoto: Garry Trinh I live on the edge of Parramatta, Australiaâs fastest-growing city, on the kind of old-fashioned suburban street that has 1950s fibros constructed in the post-war housing boom, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Ryan, Teaching Fellow in Economics, University of Waikato GettyImagesfatido/Getty Images There is an ongoing global debate over whether the high inflation seen in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic can be lowered without a recession. New Zealand is not ...
The âWicked Gameâ heartthrob is in his late 60s now. That didnât stop him putting on a lively, goofy and very sparkly show. Apart from âWicked Gameâ, which graces a sultry playlist of mine simply called đ, my last sustained Chris Isaak listening session took place when I was about ...
Analysis - Two ministers were stripped of portfolios in a warning to Cabinet, drama broke out at the Waitangi Tribunal, and the gang patch ban bill ran into opposition. ...
Tara Ward makes an impassioned plea for some vital pop culture merch. In April 1999, I became obsessed with a new reality television show called Popstars. Every Tuesday night, five strangers transformed into music royalty before my very eyes as Joe, Keri, Carly, Erika and Megan were chosen to form ...
PNG Post-Courier In the early hours of ANZAC Day, aerial photographs captured an impressive gathering of Australians and Papua New Guineans at Isurava in the Northern (Oro) Province. The solemn dawn service yesterday was held at a site steeped in history, where some of the fiercest battles of World War ...
The PSA is shocked that Oranga Tamariki has used the cost cutting drive to downgrade its commitment to Te Ao MÄori and remove many specialist MÄori roles. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Kemish, Adjunct Professor, School of Historical and Philosophical Inquiry, The University of Queensland There can be no more powerful symbol of the relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea than the prime ministers of these neighbouring countries walking together on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sharon Robinson, Distinguished Professor and Deputy Director of ARC Securing Antarctica’s Environmental Future (SAEF), University of Wollongong, University of Wollongong Andrew Netherwood Over the last 25 years, the ozone hole which forming over Antarctica each spring has started to shrink. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Viktoria Kahui, Senior Lecturer in Environmental Economics, University of Otago Getty Images/Amy Toensing Biodiversity is declining at rates unprecedented in human history. This suggests the ways we currently use to manage our natural environment are failing. One emerging concept focuses on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Colin Bednall, Associate Professor in Management, Swinburne University of Technology marvent/Shutterstock Finding the best person to fill a position can be tough, from drafting a job ad to producing a shortlist of top interview candidates. Employers typically consider information from ...
Wondering where to host your next BYO? Whether its a small gathering or a massive party, weâve got some recommendations. I was first introduced to the concept of BYOs at Dunedinâs India Gardens, a legendary but sadly defunct establishment, which purveyed enormous quantities of mango chicken to Aotearoaâs drunkest future ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Cooper, Honorary Lecturer, Department of History and Archaeology, Macquarie University Julien Cooper The hyper-arid desert of Eastern Sudan, the Atbai Desert, seems like an unlikely place to find evidence of ancient cattle herders. But in this dry environment, my new ...
The sector says itâs hopeful her replacement Paul Goldsmith will be able to throw it a lifeline, after six months with a minister deemed missing in action, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoffâs morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign ...
The government can't just rely on axing public sector jobs and has to do more to cut spending, says the chief economist at a free market think tank. ...
Rock The Vote NZ, known for its advocacy for minor party unity and its role within the Freedoms NZ Coalition during the 2023 General Election, celebrates this merger as a strategic enhancement of its operational strength and outreach. ...
Nearly everyone has experienced the frustration of something you use breaking and being difficult or expensive to fix. Proposed legislation could change that. Itâs been raining on and off all Sunday afternoon but people are lining up outside a building in a corner of Gribblehirst Park in Sandringham, Auckland. In ...
What does a forever relationship look like when you donât believe in marriage? And how do you celebrate it? This essay is part of our Sunday Essay series, made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.Iâm going to do it, right now. Iâm going to say ...
You can’t have missed the Gallipoli story as the movies, documentaries, essays and books capture what it was like for New Zealand troops in their eight-month campaign on the Peninsula. But this Anzac Day the Auckland War Memorial Museum has published a book that sheds light on a little-known aspect of the ...
The Prime Minister has committed to resuming direct flights to Thailand. But it’s not a promise he will be able to deliver on anytime soon. The post Prime Minister jumps the gun in Thailand appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Itâs not that long ago Eliza McCartney was seriously wondering if the Paris Olympics would be her pole vaulting swansong. After years of being hounded by injury after injury, the Rio Olympics bronze medallist was still confident she would compete at her second Olympics in Paris in July, unless something ...
FICTION 1 Take Two by Danielle Hawkins (Allen & Unwin, $36.99) There’s commercial fiction, like this book, and then there’s quality fiction, quality writers, quality literature; the forthcoming Auckland Writers Festival is full of quality, and ReadingRoom has two tickets to give away to the following events: Paul Lynch (Dublin ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra In the free-for-all between the Australian government and Big Tech boss Elon Musk this week, the government had to be on a winner. Most people would have little sympathy with Muskâs vociferous opposition to ...
Asia Pacific Report Chief Mandla Mandela, a member of the National Assembly of South Africa and Nelson Mandelaâs grandson, has joined the Freedom Flotilla in istanbul as the ships prepare to sail for Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. Mandela is also the ambassador for the Global Campaign to Return to ...
Pacific Media Watch Journalists who report on environmental issues are encountering growing difficulties in many parts of the world, reports Reporters Without Borders. According to the tally kept by RSF, 200 journalists have been subjected to threats and physical violence, including murder, in the past 10 years because they were ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesnât normally happen in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australiaâs inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and itâs now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
ACT's Rural Communities and Veterans spokesman Mark Cameron responds to cancellations and protests of ANZAC Day commemorations in Wellington. He says, "These pitiful attempts to detract from ANZAC Day are not at all indicative of the feelings of mainstream ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Meighen McCrae, Associate Professor of Strategic & Defence Studies, Australian National University American and Australian stretcher bearers working together near the front line during the Battle of Hamel in 1918.Australian War Memorial While the AUKUS alliance is new, the Australian-American partnership ...
PĆneke based peace activists staged a silent protest at the ANZAC day service to highlight New Zealandâs complicity in war and genocide, and urge the government to take concrete steps to stop the genocide in Palestine. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Magdalena M.E. Bunbury, Postdoctoral Researcher, James Cook University Burial with a horse at the RĂĄkĂłczifalva site, Hungary (8th century AD).SĂĄndor HegedƱs, Hungarian National Museum, CC BY How do we understand past societies? For centuries, our main sources of information have been ...
Amanda Thompson doesnât really do Anzac Day. But what she does do is remember the people she knew who had a lifetime to remember stuff they didnât really want to, because of a war they didnât ask for. And she does make Anzac biscuits.First published in 2021.All my ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathryn Willis, Postdoctoral Researcher, CSIRO Xavier Boulenger/Shutterstock In the two decades to 2019, global plastic production doubled. By 2040, plastic manufacturing and processing could consume as much as 20% of global oil production and use up 15% of the annual carbon ...
With our collective remembrance, and steadfast belief in our common humanity, we strengthen our hope and resolve to do what we can to foster dialogue and understanding, and to heal divisions in our pursuit of peace. ...
Principal reasons for the opposition is the loss of the publicâs democratic right to have âa fair sayâ and the vital need for a government free from corruption, said Casey Cravens of Dunedin, president of the New Zealand Federation of Freshwater ...
Never mind the scoreboard â in the 2000 Bledisloe Cup decider, the real trans-Tasman battle was won before kickoff.First published in 2016. The dawn of the new millennium was a dark time for the All Blacks. Their final game pre-Y2K was a 22-18 loss to South Africa in the ...
Iâm on the wrong side of 40, I never pursued creative work and now my job is killing my soul. Help! Want Heraâs help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,May I start with the least original conversation opener youâre likely to hear around the motu at the moment, particularly in Wellington: ...
âNever again - No AUKUSâ was the message of the wreath laid at this morningâs national ANZAC Day commemorative service at Pukeahu National War Memorial Park this morning by the Stop AUKUS group. ...
Until this month, Auckland swimmer Hazel Ouwehand had never met a qualifying time in an Olympic event for a New Zealand team, even as a junior. Now sheâs very likely off to the Paris Olympics after swimming well under the qualifying standard in the 100m butterfly twice â both in ...
While Anzac Day has experienced a resurgence in recent years, our other day of remembrance has slowly faded from view.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand. Original illustrations by Hope McConnell.First published in 2022.The high schoolâs head girl and ...
Australian and New Zealand volunteers fought together in the Waikato War, yet still its place in the Anzac tradition is unacknowledged by our defence forces or Returned Services Association.First published in 2018.When I was a boy cub I attended Anzac Day services in the South Auckland suburb of ...
A poem by Wellington writer Tayi Tibble. Â Hoki Mai She kisses him goodbye with her eyes still wet and alight from their last swim in the Awatere river. At the train station celebration, she leads the Kapa Haka but her voice keeps breaking under and over itself like waves. ...
A poem from Bill Manhireâs 2017 book of verse Some Things to Place in a Coffin.  My World War I Poem  Inside each trench, the sound of prayer. Inside each prayer, the sound of digging.  Image courtesy of Auckland War Memorial Museum. ...
There are three books I have wolfed down in one sitting over the last two years. Colleen Maria Lenihanâs gorgeous and sad debut KĆhine, Noelle McCarthyâs memoir Grand about becoming her mother and then unbecoming her, and now Hine Toa, a staunch yet gentle self-portrait by living legend NgÄhuia te ...
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Asia Pacific Report Students and activist staff at Australiaâs University of Sydney (USyd) have set up a Gaza solidarity encampment in support of Palestinians and similar student-led protests in the United States. The camp was pitched as mass graves, crippled hospitals, thousands of civilian deaths and the near-total destruction of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James B. Dorey, Lecturer in Biological Sciences, University of Wollongong Australian teddy bear bees are cute and fluffy, but get a look at that massive (unbarbed) stinger! James Dorey Photography Most of us have been stung by a bee and we ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jen Roberts, Senior Lecturer, School of Humanities and Social Inquiry, University of Wollongong Aussie~mobs/FlickrVictor Farr, a private in the 1st Infantry Battalion, was among the first to land at Anzac Cove just before dawn on April 25 1915. Victor Farr ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gregory Moore, Senior Research Associate, School of Ecosystem and Forest Sciences, The University of Melbourne Gregory Moore I had the good fortune to care for the sugar gum at The University of Melbourneâs Burnley Gardens in Victoria where I worked for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australiaâs inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and itâs now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
Was listening to Shearer on Morning Report. Just realised that my jaw has been sore as I have been clenching my teeth in trepidation that he might trip over his tongue. Whew. He hasn’t been THAT bad. Some good points made.
Especially the comments about vested interests in the real estate industry making a lot of money out of foreign sales.
Best form of defence is attack. Question the motivation of these opponents.
Just heard a bit of Him defending Labour’s latest move on housing, interestingly someone here was having a nit-pick about Dave (the incumbent),calling the policy ‘his’ the other day,and, that’s the only point where he stumbled having to self edit meant that this came out as ”my/our policy”,
Dave,(the incumbent),has come along in leaps and bounds in being able to deliver the message without the aaah ummm extended silence that punctuated His earlier efforts,
He still tho has one major problem in that those that didn’t get their Dave,(not the incumbent),into the top spot still wont accept Him as leader with a large full stop…
The closer we get to the election, the less indifference Cunliffe supporters will show, I reckon. Whatever their feelings about the leadership, I’m confidant the prospect of knocking off Key will be enough for most Labour supporters to put the party, and NZ, ahead of their antipathy toward Shearer.
Let me correct you TRP.
There was no antipathy towards Shearer to begin with. Just a belief that Cunliffe was the better candidate. The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.
Knocking off Key has always been the number one priority. There’s no reason why Shearer can’t do it, and I know of no-one who won’t be cheering him on. If he has the nous to stop listening to Cunliffe’s detractors and places Cunliffe back on the front bench where he belongs then all the better…
“Captain Mumblefuck” was a term of endearment? Good to know.
TV debates my good sir, the bloody election will be lost on the 2%-3% swing around the TV debates. Better be no mumbling then.
And then it will be too late to get rid of him if he fucks it up. And then we have 3 more years of a bunch of sell it all megalomaniacs, better he stands down now, in deference to someone who can at least string a sentence together, without stumbling ad mumbling all over the place. And his preoccupation with the word ‘I’. Someone needs to tell him that there is NO ‘I’ in TEAM. And he NEEDS a team to win and at the moment that is the biggest missing link in the Labour Party at present. So no team no win!
But there are two “I”s in “politics”. And three in “Prime Minister” đ
But without a team he’s just another also ran. Who will lose his shirt, and us our assets, there is too much at stake to have a NON team player in charge!
+1. Absolutely. Someone seems to have told him he should say “I” to show he’s in charge, or something. It needs to be “we”. It’s a team that makes policy, not Shearer, it’ll be a team that gets elected and implements policy.
No need to compete with Key by saying “I”. It’s fine for National to continue to show they’re all told what to do in every area of policy by a dodgy money trader.
I know of no Labour Party member who used that term. Even so, it was ultra mild compared to what some were calling Cunliffe. You do have a very selective memory sometimes McFlock.
Well, here’s the list of folk who’ve used it here. Not all of them are tory concern trools.
Can’t tell from that list who are Labour Party members though. Might be better to search “mumblefuck” +colonial viper etc.
forgot that the search engine here can’t handle multiple words well.
and then there’s trying to remember the people who’ve [plausibly] claimed to be Labour members.
Quite happy to say that I have not (IIRC) and will not call Shearer by that nickname.
He should wear it as a badge of honour, reclaim the language, that sort of thing đ
Oh, I’ve used the term.
But only – and I really must stress this point – only because he’s a mumbling useless fuck.
gods darn it, you really kill me.
are you a labour member?
No, just someone who wants to vote for them. Silly dream, I know.
You missed me. And I have, until this time, voted labour for the last 40 years. But not this time. Why should I vote for someone who does not give a rats arse about us, who is only interested in being the leader, even if the fucking shooting box goes down the crapper. And that’s what Mumblefucks legacy will be! The man who sank democracy in NZ, for a pay packet, and a fucking title. Way to go Shearer!
Ah, thanks.
So much for Anne’s “I know of no Labour Party member who used that term”.
So much for this bullshit about nice people versus intractable careerists who would bring labour down to keep their jobs for three more years. Maybe if you guys can get over yourselves, then you could help the Left get somewhere rather than feeding bullshit to jonolists.
Just checking. Are you referring to the caucus ABCs as well?
To be fair, there’s a huge difference between Anne saying she didn’t know of something happening, and saying she knows something didn’t happen.
She claimed the former, you’re holding her to the latter.
Awwww CV, just because they’re tossers (if they even exist as a distinct group that is as entrenched as the acronym implies), you wanna be a tosser too?
Now what did you learn in kindy about that approach when you wanted to play with truckie and another kid wouldn’t let you?
Felix: not really. I’m pointing out she was wrong, that her perception was off. The cunliffe-crowd have given much more than they’ve got in dirty behaviour, if comments I’ve seen here are anything to go by. And if comments here aren’t anything to go by, then that speaks for itself.
Shearer is a dud =/= Cunliffe supporter. You’ve never really grasped that, McF.
So you were excepting the ABC’s from your own wise advice about moving the left ahead and not feeding the jonolists, McFlock?
idiot.
I didn’t coin it until he proved himself to be an incoherent, stumbling fool whenever asked difficult questions like “what is your policy?”
you’re not a labour member, by any chance?
Come on QoT, he’s only been in the job 18 months. Give him another six, eh.
Anne, I thought Shearer not sprinting to the front of the hall at the GCSB meeting to grab the mic, instead allowing Cunliffe to speak and applauding what he said was an indication that he trusts Cunliffe, so maybe the front bench isn’t out of the question.
You sure that the fact that he was boxed in and couldn’t reach the front of the room or the mike didn’t have something to do with it?
It does look good TRP. And I’m hoping it’s going to happen soon because we need Cunliffe there.
Btw, there’s no way he could sprint to the front of that hall. It was jam packed like sardines. No-one was going to sprint anywhere.
TRP I would’ve thought it was a good sign too if only Shearer didn’t look so nervous and frightened by it.
Hear, hear, Anne. I ventured into David Cunliffe’s office today to pick up some flyers to be delivered re the Power N Z meeting this Saturday at Kelston and walked out feeling generally despondent. I keep hoping that DC will be back on the front bench very soon.
“The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.”
Well, yeah. The clue is kinda in the acronym…
Hey, cut it. You silly pawn.
Stop, for goodness sake, framing it as “anti Shearer = pro Cunliffe”.
You are eating the lines of the TV3 news-creators and Robertson.
All Labour supporters want a fairer society and to urgently roll back the inequities driven by Key & Co.
How fucking dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that. My attitude towards the leadership is driven by that one cannon.
Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying … Let us not change anything.
That bullshit has us heading to an election defeat and three more years of Key and a very unfair society.
Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.
And I think you meant “canon”.
Yeah, because typos or incorrect spelling are really important right now.
“Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.”
But bad12 didn’t refer to the standard, so it’s reasonable to assume he meant all Cunliffe supporters and all Labour people who have criticised Shearer.
There are very good reasons why the dominant narrative here has been anti-Shearer. I think you are one of the few people who doesn’t get it.
Eeeek, how did i get into the conversation this far into the debate Dave V Dave, umm no my previous comment didn’t mention the Standard, but, the basis of my comment when it comes to the acceptance of the incumbent Dave is solely based around what i have read here at the Standard,
In the real world i don’t tend to have conversations with Labour supporters about who they support as leader, as i am not a Labour voter nor member such inquistions would possibly be seen rightly or wrongly as stirring…
But when B referred to “all Labour supporters”, it is reasonable to assume that those who comment here are a subset of that, no? Including B? Unless of course B is just another commentator overly concerned about the leadership of a party they don’t even vote for.
I get that there are good reasons to not be particularly impressed or awed by Shearer as leader, but no, I don’t get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
If you think that the leadership is not a pivotal issue and that Labour is still on course for victory, of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
Rhino referencing a woodchipper was extreme. The extreme end of behaviour here, but I still don’t get it (even in jest). I don’t get how people can call a simple internal equality policy political suicide, especially this far out from the election. Nor do I get why people complain that not mentioning state housing policy while announcing other policy is a sign of closeted neoliberalism.
Criticism, that I can understand. But jumping at ideological shadows like some sort of lame “ghost hunting” reality TV show? Nah, I don’t get it.
“I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.”
Pretty simple. Many see the problem within Labour (the ABCs and Shearer) as preventing any shift away from the neoliberal clusterfuck are are in. This time period will be remember as the second time in my generation that Labour betrayed the country. It’s not as obvious as the 80s, but we’re in a holding pattern now waiting for the ABCs to retire or die. We can’t afford that wait.
Bigger picture McFlock. It’s not about Shearer, it’s about why Shearer is leader at this point in time and why nothing is being done about it.
Putting aside the vexed question of just WHO should be sitting in the leaders chair for the moment can i ask you Weka if you firmly believe that, just to be topical, Labour would have a different housing policy than the one announced???,
Would David Cunliffe have a different ‘flagship policy’ and if so can you cite such a policy difference???
The leadership of Labour where i am concerned is one of who can sell Labour to the electorate the best,
As a supporter of those way further left than Labour i have to realize that to make any gains which betters my level of society, my class if we want to be ugly but totally realistic, Labour will be the party of Government that such gains if they can be made must be chiseled off of,
Much of the denigration of the current Labour leader seems to me to be more propelled by those who want the party to be something that it just is not,
How different in issues of ‘bread and butter’ would Labour be if it swapped one Dave for the other Dave, i would suggest that there would be very little difference as the middle class have grown Labour have grown into being middle class with it and are thus intent on formulating policy that definitely benefits that middle class,
Labour as a % of the party vote are then quite naturally a party in the 30,s as far as % goes, the Green Party, Mana Party, and, Maori Party hold the 15% of further left than Labour support that MMP allows the freedom of choice…
I agree with much of that bad, and like you am fairly pragmatic in that I’m not expecting Labour to be moving radically left any time soon. So do I think that under Cunliffe Labour would be making different policy? Not particularly, but I guess there would be more room to move left (as opposed to the very thin space now). My point was more that it looks to me like the people in power in caucus would rather be in power in opposition than allow change to happen. That’s the betrayal. They’ll let NACT have another 3 years while they’re playing stupid factional power games internally. Don’t know how the membership can stand it.
Bigger picture, okay:
Labour policy is pretty good so far.
Ideal government will involve Labour + greens + mana.
Greens are likely to get 10â15% of the vote.
Therefore labour needs 35â40% of the vote, so anything mana gets above that is gravy.
Currently, 35% for labour in a campaign is easily doable. 40% would be a big stretch of probability, but not so much in a year’s time. Things change.
So, what’s the big deal? Why do people get so worked up, calling commenters “pawns” or tools of TPTB. I don’t get it.
10 + 35 = 45
Yeah, let’s just trundle along, tralalala, not to worry, she’ll be right.
I suppose the big deal is that as bad as things are now, another 3 years of NACT will do irrepairable damage to that country. Exponentially more than they have done now and than they did in the 90s.
Someone said a while back that it was ok for the left to limp over the finish line to become the next govt. What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to risk losing the next election, given what is at stake. You above post makes it sound like, oh it would be nice to win, but it’s not really that bad if we don’t. For me it’s much more critical than that.
But there is no move that would guarantee a lab/grn government. After a certain level, you just have to admit that some things are out of our control.
Would [insert here] be a better speaker than shearer during the campaign? Possibly/probably. Would that person also have some quality or problem that will be done to death by the jonolists? Yep. Would they make bad moves, as well as good? Yep. Will these be blown out of proportion by the supporters of failed candidates as well as jonolists? Probably. Would garner/gower still foment the “imminent ruction within caucus” line? Yep. [Insert here] might be able to improve the polls, but then again a new leader has new targets to hit.
So yeah, Shearer’s not perfect, but nor will his replacement be. It’s not a case of “she’ll be right”, it’s a case of recognising that point where “constructive criticism” becomes “cheap invented bullshit for jono, otherwise pointless”.
McFlock, of all the things you don’t understand, this is the biggie. It’s not that Shearer isn’t perfect. It’s that he is really bad at his job. See the difference? Even if you don’t think that he is, surely you can understand that people that do think this are really frustrated (given what is at stake) and might be more angry about the situation than you.
Good to see Phil Twyford posting in the Housing Policy thread. Liked this
http://thestandard.org.nz/labours-new-housing-policy-shearer-on-qa/#comment-670807
Even if he were really bad at his job (which I don’t think he is), no, I don’t get how people can’t understand that they’re getting so worked up that (and I seriously believe this) they’re hampering any chance of a left wing government much more than they think Shearer’s performance is.
This isn’t a traffic accident or similar emergency, where we’re all trying to think through a massive adrenaline rush that hampers our perceptions and if we don’t act this second people die. We are all sitting in front of some manner of VDU with an input interface of some kind. I seriously don’t get how people fall into a state of hearing a competent performance on the radio and the main thrust of their comment is how they were waiting to be dismayed. That can’t be doing their blood pressure any good, and it’s not Shearer’s fault. It’s their own.
Some people really need to take some time off the political news and gossip, and just chillax for a while.
The problems with that, McF, are
1. We don’t hear consistent competent performances from Shearer.
2. Even if we did, which we don’t, “competent” isn’t going to win an election.
“Competent” is for managing a Burger King franchise without totally fucking it up.
Ummmm. For the most part Burger King pays it’s shift managers just enough to get the level of competence their organisation truly deserves…
Detail: in NZ they aren’t franchises…
felix:
1 is down to your perception, and 2 is a baseless assertion that merely serves to justify your opinion. Basically, 2 means that in order to have someone in the top job next election, Labour need someone who is outstanding in all facets as leader. There is nobody in caucus like that, so you might as well just have a smoke, enjoy the view and put the blindfold on when the time comes.
Outstanding in just 3 or 4 out of 10 facets with mere competence in the others would be fine.
Yeah it’s also only a matter perception that the sky is blue and water is wet.
He sucks at the job, McF. That’s observable, predictable, and repeatable, and everyone seems to know it but you.
(I joke of course. I don’t believe for a moment that you don’t know it. I think I can I think I can)
“Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying ⊠Let us not change anything.”
Not so, Boadicea.
My preffered leader is Cunliffe, though I’m leaning toward Little. However, I have consistently said that policy is more important. And I have also consistently said that the leadership is a done deal. Shearer’s it for better or worse.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
“How dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that.”
Whether you remember or not, many commenters here have said things like ‘not voting Labour till they change the leader’. What I said is that I belieive that atitude will diminish as we get closer to the election. I hope I’m right.
I have never called David Shearer names, and my anxiety about Labour under his leadership has always been based on the fear that the party has been hijacked again and is in the process of being neutered. If that fear still persists by the time of the election I will neither vote Labour nor assist Labour – I will instead vote either Green or Mana. Politicians are there to represent us. They are not there to be proxy rulers on behalf of people who do not give a damn about us.
+1
As opposed to a concerted media effort by his colleagues to attack and discredit him using lines around a non-existant coup, even before Conference had finished?
Yep, that’s how naivete works, CV. The failure to understand the implications or to guess the unintended consequences is what scuppered DC’s chances.
+10
[lprent: Santi is now on a permanent ban for violating his ban. ]
Scuppered Labour’s chances, more like.
I Have called Shearer names and I stand by what I said. Shearer is a ME, ME, Politician he uses I instead of WE ALL the time.
CunLiffe on the other Hand has the ability to explain the most complicated shit in layman’s terms so ALL voters can understand him. Key is shit scared of Cunliffe. And not only that He would wipe the floor with Key in a debate. God help us with Captain Stutterbum in the debates!
+1
That’s a galling assumption to presume the loyalty of all us volunteers, no matter what. That’s precisely the attitude that has seen members walk away over the last decade – or haven’t you noticed?
Every Labour Party member has a duty to hold the leader to account. And to support them when they perform. Indeed according to our constitution we now have the right. And so we do, including here. We invest volunteer time and expect results. Leader: deliver.
Instead, the Labour Party by every single measure is failing. Funding. Profile. Coherence. Membership. Media management. Polling. You can offload blame for that to Cunliffe loyalists all you want.
But in fact yours is the attitude that needs to change: blind loyalty – and you expect come election just press the political-guilt button again. The Labour Party is a walking hollow corpse, and those electrodes don’t work any more. With your expressed attitude, the best chance for Labour to do better is for you and people like you including caucus to look in the mirror and tell the truth.
Hear Hear! to that Ad.
I regard my vote for Labour’s 3rd term to have been partly due to “blind loyalty” and a vote for the least worst option at the time.
Not again. There are actually other options.
Thus far, I’m BEGINNING to see some good initiatives coming from Labour, and a SLIGHT improvement in Shearer’s performance, but UNTIL a few of them at least start to realise they don’t have some divine right to my vote, acknowledge more openly that the neo-liberal agenda has not worked and that they will at least explore alternatives – they’ll not get my vote again.
More than that, they sure as hell won’t get my membership or financial support again until they’ve established a decent sort of record.
Thanks, Ad and Tim for offering those words, which actually seem to confirm my point about the antipathy toward Shearer. Ad, it gives me heart to know that there are folks like you out there who can be persuaded to support Labour if the circumstances are right. For me, that’s policy. For some people, it’s leadership. I really hope that come election time, we’ll have the best of both and a better than even chance of changing NZ for the good..
BTW, if you’d read my comments down the years, you’d know it’s not blind loyalty that drives me (or, I suspect, anyone else). It’s a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, giving the lack of a mass supported socialist alternative. The LP is not within cooee of the kind of party I’d like to be in, but I keep trying in my own small way to move it to the left.
“Itâs a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, …etc.”
TRP – we’re in agreement, except that my point is that there is now (almost) another alternative for that ‘mass’. What’s required is for Labour to step up: to demolish the little Hipkins hissy fits; to spark when required; to hold the bovver boys in check when it’s quite obviously counter-productive, and release them when its not; to publicly and vociferously denounce the Natz bullshit at each and every opportunity (without delay – given the 24hr spin cycle – and there have been plenty). I realise the opportunities are precious – given the state of the MSM and its predisposition – which makes that all the more important.
So far – in the scheme of things, there are better alternatives. I MIGHT (at a very very very small pinch – or should that be a large one) be persuaded to give Labour another chance. Given the record so far, and after almost a lifetime – it’s not likely in 2014.
99 to 1 – that could change – I.e. NOT Labour.
I don’t think I’m a masochist – or a martyr – right now, that’s what would be required to even consider it
I’ll accept Shearer as leader when he shows he can do the job. So far he hasn’t.
+1
Shearer has been unable to articulate the new housing policy clearing. For the last 18 months, his performances have been cringeworthy. There were those of us who were prepared to give him a chance, but with polling staying around 31%, there is no way that Shearer can lead Labour to victory.
A third term National Government simply cannot be an option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUArGWZ3A7w
The elephant in the room, the emperor’s new clothes.
Shearer Needs To Stand Down
Worth keeping an eye on this thread : http://johnquiggin.com/2013/07/28/oz-nz/ where Aussie economist John Quiggin is looking at the comparative performance of NZ/AUS performance post war.
http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/07/28/lenders-set-bank-of-cyprus-bail-in-at-475/
Only 47.5% this time around, phew, got away with that one didn’t they!
Got all those large pesky savers with over 100K on loan to the bank!
Would be interesting to see the stats on the accounts which were robbed!
Ah a standard morning.
Wellington getting rocked by a 5.x earthquakes and a cluster of 3.x.
Pete George using an evidence free approach to everything. Perhaps he should retrain as a jonolist? I posted that Jenny was wrong in saying Shearer said anything “angrily”. He didn’t. Having listened to the video Jenny referred to, she appears to have confused someone else intejecting with the words “not a review” with Shearer. And for the record, Pete, you really are a retarded fool if you think Jenny’s silly claims being repeated on TV3 wasn’t at the core of my post.
Jon getting spied on by the NZDF is disturbing. Particularly since it appears that the only reason for doing so is to prevent embarrassment. I have been known to have the odd beer with Jon. Offhand I cannot think of anyone less likely to want to cause soldiers harm. But he does seem tenacious about digging out dodgy shit. Definitely a journalist…
Time for coding..
The NZDF revelations are extremely disturbing. It reveals a distinct lack of understanding of democratic principles in the upper hierarchy. You can’t save democracy by undermining democracy, fellas.
Andrew Geddis covers it well.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/morale-was-deteriorating-and-it-was-all-yossarians-fault
Now we now how John Armstrong gets off – a pap piece on Simon Bridges.
To think that our politics must be reported in terms of applauding Bridges’ entirely unremarkable and boringly prosaic “elder gentleman” jibe, as though it were Churchillian.
Armstrong seems to be engaged in a wilful dumbing down. Why else right this shit as major stuff ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=10903899
It is becoming more apparent that between them the Heralds Fifth Column of commenters are producing pieces in that particular shoddy rag, working as a tag team in the vein of Labour must do this while pimping for support for the likes of National’s Bridges and the equally as awful Jamie Lee Ross, (who has something extremely ugly lurking just beyond His frontal lobe),
Sooner or later as the fashion dictates the Herald will hide it’s on-line edition behind a pay-wall which will be a joy as i wont be tempted to read their utter sh*t Fifth Column political jonolism anymore…
and then every now and then (well maybe 3 or four times a year) they premit Brian Gould to write a short piece, just so they can say….
balance
The Herald is rapidly becoming our very own Fox News.
They wont put up a pay wall, they couldn’t stand the loss of readers.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future… As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZ’s sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasn’t already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
As part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa. Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out “bigot” chant, “racist” chant, “hater” chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
A few days ago, apparent support for something like this position was tumbled on within the late historian Michael King’s book A Short History of NZ, written a decade or so ago. In it King refers to Maori as New Zealand’s first indigenous people. What would King mean by that? It implies more than one, obviously. It implies that there are or will be other indigenous people subsequent to Maori. I read around and around the particular piece to try to glean some more to help paint the picture but couldn’t locate much to assist… (no longer have the book so can’t reference but it was in a post-WWII chapter around what the govt was doing with the dept of native affairs I think)
Curiouser and curiouser….
‘Indigenous’, from it’s literal meaning would tend to suggest that none of us are, indigenous that is, none of us occurred here naturally as we all came from other places,
Maori with the literal translation that i have, ‘Normal’, would seem a better descriptive, your debate of course is around what a Pakeha academic has chosen to label Maori as, i doubt many Maori have or do use the term indigenous…
Your plan to get rid of the Treaty won’t work – others far more bright, well read and intelligent have tried and are trying. Why not try the honest approach and just put up your agenda instead of lurking around it – it’s pretty obvious anyway but being honest would at least give a true reference point to begin actual discussions – may I suggest a list would help.
Have to agree. Vto, yet again your comment skirts around the issues making them vague enough that it’s hard to know what your actual point is. So I’m guessing that you are referring to the people that believe various theories around pre-Maori settlers, but who unfortunately (a) don’t have any background/experience that lends their views credibility and (b) are often connected to white supremacist groups in NZ or internationally. Then you wonder why the term racist comes up so often.
btw, I’ve had discussions with people and read articles re Pakeha indigeneity that never reference the racist arguments of people like Ansell or Doutre. These conversations ask questions like what does it mean to be indigenous? What are the cultural and spiritual aspects that are associated with bein indigenous? What is the relationship between indigenous and the land? These conversations happen without any need to take anything away from Maori, and for the most part they aren’t based in Pakeha insecurity. Why are you not taking part in these conversations?
You might want to re-consider the circles you are moving in, and the kinds of material you are reading. I also hear Maori who talk with ambivalence about who was here first. If you don’t understand the reasons why they do that, or why they’re not going to engage in the debate you want, then again, you are talking to the wrong people. Until I see some attempt by you to engage with Maori on their own terms, I can only assume you are like other Pakeha that are interested in the things that support their ethnocentric view instead of being open to wider, sometimes contradictory perspectives.
Some background reading
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/11/dargavilles-media-should-honour-towns.html
http://books.scoop.co.nz/2008/11/18/no-to-nazi-pseudo-history-an-open-letter/ (connections between the pre-Maori settler theorists and white supremacists).
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/05/celtic-boulders-and-unbalanced.html
You are paranoid weka and see things that aren’t there. Why don’t you just answer the question put in the post instead?
What do you make of Michael King’s reference to maori being “the first indigenous people”? It is not a rocket science question.
From what I remember King believes that non-Maori can become indigenous, so when he refers to ‘first’ indigenous he is stating his belief that Maori were here ‘first’.
But I would have to see an actual quote, and in context. Maybe it’s actually an editing mistake.
What do you think he means?
Pretty much the exact same as you weka. Nothing more and nothing less. It is another piece of a very large picture about maori and pakeha place in these islands, that is all.
The reason it was posted is that the idea in King’s statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.
let the placing of the 1,000,000 piece jigsaw puzzle continue ………
“The reason it was posted is that the idea in Kingâs statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.”
[citation needed]
Anyway, I seem to remember the last time you started up on this, you referenced someone as supporting your argument, and that person turned out to be known racist and white supremacist John Ansell (and we only learned that because I searched for the audio, listened to it, and then reported back to the ts thread). So I don’t really trust you when you say you read something once. Your ability to misrepresent your argument is now well known. Am pretty sure that by the end of this round we will have demonstrated that Michael King didn’t say what you think he said, that you are misrepresenting his views, and that what you really believe is more along the lines of Doutre and co. I’m happy to be proved wrong, but you never say what you actually think, and then we find bits of the jigsaw hidden under the tablecloth or on the floor.
King as i point out above has mistakenly used the term ‘indigenous’, to be indigenous Maori or anyone else would have had to have been resident here when our little islands split off from where-ever they split off of,
So what is there to debate about King’s mistaken use of the English language…
Hi bad12, thanks for your comment there. I understand your point there but take this as being indigenous within the NZ context i.e. on the assumption that Maori are indigenous…….
Point taken VTO, but working off of an assumption that in its entirety is incorrect leaves you in danger of basing everything else upon that incorrect assumption thus reaching a wrong conclusion,
A far better description of Maori would be ‘first people’ which is entirely unambiguous, it is then easy to ‘see’ that such a first people had ‘property rights’ not just in the European sense but in far more ephemeral areas,
Obviously such property rights do not translate from the Maori into the English in their entirety which is why we still have Treaty issues,
Inherent in such issues is the Maori ”it is mine but it is not mine”, in English that term is totally ambiguous and a contradiction, for Maori hardly so…
“A far better description of Maori would be âfirst people'”
Only if you accept that Pakeha definitions trump Maori ones. If you deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous, then you exclude them from their relationship with other indigenous peoples in the world. And you make this about reductionist biological constructs instead of holitic ones. I don’t see how that helps matters.
Just as an aside – somewhere (and I’ll try and locate it from a uni history paper if I can), there is a U.N definition of the descriptor ‘Indigenous’ which not only suggests the concept of ‘first people’, but also those subjected to some sort of subsequent ‘oppression’ or adverse cultural influence (such as colonisation).
It might be a losing battle to locate however – the attic is knee deep in old notes and books and I no longer own the place.
…. ah! I note Karol’s comment below too
Here’s indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region,
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
LOLZ, i have never heard any Maori, those in the family or from elsewhere, use the term indigenous, that does not preclude that some might of course,
A bigger LOLZ is your contention that if i deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous i deny them something, along with your lead into that concerning Pakeha definitions trumping those of Maori,
My contention that ‘first people’ is a far better description of Maori when measured against ‘indigenous’ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of ‘first people’ is akin to the American Indian self description of ‘first nations people’,
If you asked my nieces and nephews whether or not they are indigenous i can assure you the reply would be one large HAH???,
Therein lies the disconnect, ‘indigenous’ is an entirely Pakeha concept, ask my lot instead how they come to ‘belong here’ and you will get a recitation of ‘whakapapa’ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Indigenous then can come no closer in comparison than the divide between Maori and Pakeha that has always exsisted…
Well, yes. Indigenous is a European term. And originally I think it was just applied to country of birth. But it is a term adopted by indenous people – maybe more politcal than in everyday language.
As I understand it “First Nation” – also a useful term – is one coined in Canada and applied to indigenous people there.
Googled “first people” – ah the confusion of language. It seems there’s a prior usage of the term,
But also it has been claimed by colonsied people, and on at least the website of the first Peoples World Wide, is linked with the term “indigenous”.
And they have a page defining indigenous people, thus:
bad12: ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Well, if someone asked where I belong, or where my place is, I’d go into the places my ancestors have been, and their cultural connections etc. Often it’s stuff I don’t find worth celebrating, but, it is what it is.
LOLZ, Karol, we have then come full circle in the debate from what i said in my first comment,
In Maori the closest i can come to the term ‘indigenous’ is in fact the word Maori for which i have a translation to mean ‘Normal’ and in terms of the definition of indigenous ”originating or occurring naturally in a country or region” would seem an adequate fit,
Scholars of the reo might of course be able to submit a far more definitive term of indigenous but Maori does it for me and ‘first people’ seems far more defining than indigenous for those who need some other form of descriptive other than Maori,
Lol, must be a slow day i don’t normally indulge in such wordly debates…
Hi bad,
Hereâs indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
That definition comes from biology. A different definition, with regards to people, has been in use for a long time. Sorry if you and your whanau haven’t come across that before, but it’s been used by Maori for ages, including internationally.
My contention that âfirst peopleâ is a far better description of Maori when measured against âindigenousâ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of âfirst peopleâ is akin to the American Indian self description of âfirst nations peopleâ,
Except the racists use it to point out that Maori got here just a bit earlier than Pakeha and therefore don’t really have that much right to be treaty partners or call themselves tangata whenua or whatever.
Therein lies the disconnect, âindigenousâ is an entirely Pakeha concept,
Well by that argument, we can’t use the word ‘Maori’ to refer to people of Iwi decent.
ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Ae, a fairly acceptable definition of indigenous imo.
Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?
You are playing with words.
“Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?”
no such need
no such claim
Really Karol, that is entirely assumption and projection on your part. Why have you done that? Why don’t you just answer the actual question about King’s point?
We can’t answer the actual question abotu King’s point, because you haven’t posted King’s point. What you’ve done is presented a version of King’s point amongst a whole bunch of other points and it’s hard to know what the fuck you mean. I feel manipulated, by you. You are setting us up to garner support for your covert views, instead of just being honest about what you think. That’s why people now call bullshit on your posts about ethnicity straightaway.
ffs give it up. Everytime. Simple questions weka, simple questions. And now it has happened again – why do you obsess about the personal? Why is every question treated as some kind of pointer to some other agenda that I don’t have? You are like that other commenter above who never ever comments on the issue and only ever on the person who makes the comment.
I recall you saying a while ago that the ‘who’ of a comment is at least as important as the comment made. I would suggest that this feature of your thinking is bananas and is what is taking you down this path of paranoia. Try concentrating on the actual issues.
Nice sidestep.
Ok, actual issue. Did Michael King say ‘first indigenous’? No idea.
Where do we go from here?
Still have no idea why you even bought this up. Are you really asking if it’s possible for Pakeha to become indigenous?
edit, and you know what? If you don’t want to discuss the meta issues around race then DON’T BRING THEM UP IN YOUR FUCKING OPENING COMMENT.
Exactly, weka.
Are you really asking if itâs possible for Pakeha to become indigenous?
Exactly, and why is this even important?
“why is this even important?”
it’s not is it
Correct – it is not important or relevant to creating a sense of place for pÄkehÄ, unless to create a sense of place, that means reducing MÄori which is what you are trying to do. Many have found their place here by accepting MÄori and accepting what happened here and accepting the way the world is now – but not you vto, you continue to try and create division and anger by pushing your views out there as if they were somehow objective and devoid of your own personal baggage – which they aren’t. Your views are aligned with ansell and 1law4all and you diminish yourself by trying to pretend otherwise. I have no problem saying that MÄori are indigenous in all the vagaries of that word, because they fulfill the definition set out by others of what indigenous means.
These type of debates, fomented by you, always follow the same trajectory yet you cannot stop yourself can you? Why? They bolster your twisted view of the world that’s why, they reinforce your preconceived ideas and strengthen your bigotry by providing evidence in your own mind of why and what you already believe. You don’t discuss or debate in good faith – you just use the good arguments of others to help you continue to see the world through a distorted lens.
“Still have no idea why you even bought this up.”
There’s that paranoia and complication thing again. Try reading the first two sentences in the post.
And perhaps you could highlight which comments in my opening post were about any other race issue other than indigeneity origins rather than yelling swear words in my face.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⊠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
Right there, you start muddying the waters. Because you fail to grasp the significance of the way tangata whenua were colonised.
<IAs part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa.
Really? Citation needed? Because Africaner were major oppressors of the indigenous people of Africa.
And it still doesn’t answer the question why you want to claim “indigenous”‘ status, when it will largely work to blur historical memory about colonisation?
vto, if it’s not important to you, why do you keep raising issues around it?
PS: and why don’t you mention anything about colonisation in your opening comment?
First two sentences:
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⊠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already.
All I can tell from that is this:
1. you post on things Maori-Pakeha from time to time
2. someone (we don’t know who) has suggested on ts that other-than-Maori will soon be designated indigenous (but we don’t know who, by who, or how).
What did you want to happen next?
Did you read the link I gave about Ani Mikaere’s view on Pakeha and being indigenous?
Meta issue (and manipulation set up):
Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out âbigotâ chant, âracistâ chant, âhaterâ chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
Perfect example weka. You see things that are not there.
Fuck off vto. That’s a classic example of you making an assertion about something but leaving it to the mind readers amongst us to know what you are talking about.
edit: Actually, doubly fuck off, because even when I do respond to the actual main issue you raise, when I take the trouble to do so, you simply ignore that and go for the surrounding meta argument. I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have no genuine interest in the topic, you simply raise the issue here so you can indulge your confirmation bias that everyone who disagrees with you basic premises on race are paranoid hate mongers.
fuck off yourself weka. You see things that don’t exist (see comment just below where I have tried to simplify things).
The issue described was around previous comment on here that rubbished claims that it may be possible for pakeha to be seen as indigenous. Michael King provided some further ballast. But you seem to think that it is a Trojan horse for all sorts of other matters.
Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions – if that were actually true then so fucking what? Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they don’t even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.
Freudian slip there vto
“Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they donât even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.”
THAT IS YOU!
If you just accepted it then an actual discussion could be had because the true parameters would be set – meanwhile you continue to dance on the hotplate – aren’t your feet getting fucken hot by now – FFS be honest at least with yourself and the mirror – you are not fooling anyone else.
“Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions â if that were actually true then so fucking what? ”
Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions. Who is a bigot and why? If you can’t answer that then it’s all hot air and diversion.
eg you just said I’m seeing things that aren’t there. I don’t know what you are referring to, because my comment contained a number of points. You’ve had two comments to say what you are referring to, but you’ve chosen not to. It wouldn’t be that hard to be specific, so I can only assume you either have poor communication skills and don’t know what I mean, or you have another agenda. Each time this happens, you leave other people in the position of either guessing what you mean (and then you get all defensive), or just not responding (in which case you get to say shit without being called on it). It’s starting to look like quie a sophisticated means of tr0lling.
“Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions”
If you look closely weka you will see that both the original post of mine and the rehash were framed entirely by a question to posters about King’s intentions with those words. A question. In both. Not an assertion.
Probably most have had a guts-full of the topic by now, but for those who want to proceed on the basis of an actual quote to refer to, here is one to be going on with:
“In that same year (1946) New Zealand still possessed a Department of ‘Native’ Affairs, whose function it was to assist the country’s first indigenous people and, by organising the development, lease and sale of their land, contribute to what almost all New Zealanders believed were the ‘best race relations in the world’.” (p.413 Ch25 The Penguin History Of New Zealand 2003)
For what it’s worth I’m with B12 on this. It’s a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most “indigenous” people these days avoid this distraction by using the term “first peoples” ??
Agree clockie, I think most have had a gutsful too. And thanks for the quote, that was the one.
Thanks Clockie, looks like an editorial misjudgement rather than King making a statement about anything.
“For what itâs worth Iâm with B12 on this. Itâs a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most âindigenousâ people these days avoid this distraction by using the term âfirst peoplesâ ??”
On that basis Maori should be excluded from the UN’s Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Sorry, but we can’t just wipe out a whole bunch of things because some people think the word indigenous should only used in its biological sense (I assume that is the objection here).
editorial misjudgement? how so?
I’d need to see the context, but the way it reads would suggest that either the Dept of Native Affairs or King believe that the indigenous people were first. Is that a term that the DNA would have used? If not and its King’s choice of words, it seems odd to use them when discussing something from the 1940s. If neither, it’s a redundancy and should have been edited.
Well I suspect they are King’s words and not the Dept of native Affairs from the 1940s. But bear in mind King was discussing this in the 1990s/2000s and not the 1940s, hence the use of his words “New Zealand’s first indigenous people”, when such terms were more widely understood.
And further, I know historians are very careful with their selection of words. It would be interesting to see if King has discussed this issue elsewhere.
+1 to everything weka has said, and props to weka for having the fortitude to illuminate vto’s flamebaiting bullshit for newcomers.
nothing more could be expected from you qob, queen of bigots.
No. it looks exactly like what you are doing – trying to erase the status of tangata whenua – the significance of that status is strongly linked to colonisation and its impact. So an attempt to claim indigeneity for Pakeha looks like an attempt to erase all that, or at least muddy the water.
If you are looking for something to name a Pakeha place of belonging, it is in the word “Pakeha”. It is in our forbears’ history. That history includes colonisation – for some of us serial colonisation – Ireland, etc.
You see Karol “looks like….” is intensely subjective isn’t it. That is your problem – too subjective.
Please point out where I tried to do those things you charged me with in the original post above. For your own credibility of course.
karol
Now you know – your problem is that you are too subjective? Sigh.
Maybe, vto. But, it’s because you are putting a lot of stress on claiming the word “indigenous” for Pakeha NZers. Indigenous is a word in recent times that colonised people have claimed as part of their articulation of the legacy of colonisation.
Any attempt for people of European or other non-Maori lineage to claim indigenous status looks to me to be erasing the importance of the word “indigenous” to colonised people.
So, you may say it is “subjective”. To me it is a matter of logical deduction.
Why do you think it is so important to be able to claim indigenous status? Why not look for a word that is unique to Pakeha experience? Why not just stick with “Pakeha”?
Unfortunately this is what happens in these discussions with vto. Instead of addressing the issues you raise they will post something about what is wrong with you.
I have said before – it is part of a search of pakeha’s place here. Don’t know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that? It may well be that the current status of Maori is affected in that search. It may be completely unaffected. It may be that the term pakeha is enough, as you say. Other factors may arise in the future affecting the question.
One thing is sure – all such questions are met with heavy resistance. The current frame around this debate in NZ is stiff and unrelenting. It is like the frame has been built to not bend or allow for future flex. Such a frame will not bend of course – it will simply break, or be ignored….
The left should welcome these debates, as difficult as they are to conduct, because it is a defining issue for many people not of the left when it comes to voting patterns.
Communication communication communication
“the current status of Maori”
In what possible ways?
“One thing is sure â all such questions are met with heavy resistance.”
Complete and utter bullshit. Such questions from you are met with challenges to racism. If you can address those issues, then the topic itself will be discussed. Like I said, I’ve had this conversation with people and we never had to get bogged down in all this other shit.
A big hurdle for you now vto is to demonstrate that you are not aligning yourself with the likes of Doutre and Ansell, or if you are just be honest about it. It’s not hard to clarify and I really think these conversations would go better if you did. You’ve identified with Ansell’s views in the past, so it’s not unreasonable to think that that is where you are coming from (even if you aren’t as extreme as he is).
Get off the grass weka, I have never identified with Ansell or whoever the other prick is.
Let me try again from the start ………
“In the past I have suggested that indigenous people in NZ at some point may include pakeha. This has been dismissed out of hand by some commentators here, notably marty mars. In the weekend while reading Michael King’s recent history of NZ, it was noticed that he referred to Maori as NZ’s first indigenous people, implying that there are or may be in the future, further indigenous people. What say thee?”
Now heaven forbid that you can find anything else in there other than what I am trying to say, but give it a crack…..
weka, if you’re around – did you see this rehash? I have tried to lay it out as clearly as I can with the least number of possible misunderstandings, double entendres, alternative meanings, lost or hidden agendas or anything else that might get in the way of understanding what I was trying to say.
I have said before â it is part of a search of pakehaâs place here. Donât know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that?
No nothing wrong with looking for a sense of place. I do that myself in researching and learning about history. But in doing that I see no need to claim “indigeneity”. A sense of place is as much as in where we (and our forebears) have been – its in the journey as much as in the destination.
As I have said before “indigenous” and indigeneity” is now most commonly used as a way of articulating the experience of, and responding to colonisation. And, for the most simple explanation of this, it’s in the wikip definitions, taken from the UN definitions.
My bold.
Now a search for a sense of place can be done in many ways.
Why do you need to bring in the word “indigenous” to explain Pakeha sense of place.
And to me “place” is as much about cultural and historical place, and places traveled to and from, the travelling as much of the destination.
Why do you think the word “indigenous” should be one applied to Pakeha? Because, the impact of naming Pakeha as indigenous, will negate the aspect of Maori history and legacy that is in bold above – as I have said. The result will be a denial of colonisation and a muddying of the waters.
Karol, I was not saying it needs to be, I am investigating whether it could be. And there is no need for such a position to negate anything historic or muddy any waters.
If the result is that pakeha are seen as indigenous (less the recent colonisation aspect) then there will need to be some honesty in facing up to it. If not then so be it, on we go, honestly and squarely facing the future.
The focus on “indigenous” here is because it is one of manyplaces to conduct that search for place. That is all. There is no ulterior motive.
This investigation you are doing – have you read or referenced any MÄori writers? And if so, can you put those references here – I’d love to read them. And if not, why not?
Just another small point, the colonisation aspect continues to this day albeit under different guises or perhaps disguises is the better word.
vto, if Pakeha are to eventually becomes indigenous, it’s not something that can just be decided and applied. It would be a long process that would evolve over generations. It’s not a policy to be implemented. When you talk about it, it sounds like you think it is just something that can happen now if we want it to.
Personally, I believe that what we currently call Pakeha could become indigenous. I don’t see it happening any time soon because I see one of the core tenets of being indigenous is the relationship of the collective with the land. Pakeha have a long way to go before they will let themselves be part of the land as a culture. Which is a shame because we still have our indigenous roots with us from the UK and Europe and it could merge very well with what is already here (I don’t know how this works for non-Caucasians).
Having said that I don’t generally support discussion of Pakeha becoming indigenous with people who don’t fully accept the treaty and are who aren’t working towards decolonisation. For a start, it’s extremely rude to expect Maori to listen to such conversations when the dominating culture can’t even afford them basic protections form racism, let alone address grievances. Then there is the matter of the very large ignorance about Te Ao Maori by Pakeha. How can we have this conversation when we don’t even understand how Maori are indigenous?
I also find that the conversations tend to go badly amongst people who are not settled in their own Pakeha identities. I feel very comfortable in mine most of the time, even when I feel challenged by issues raised by Maori, but I don’t see most Pakeha being like that. Many Pakeha get thrown by the issues raised by Maori and then seek to redefine themselves in relation to that. That is understandable, but it is something we need to get past.
I also agree with Karol, why do we even need to have this conversation at this time? I know who I am, I know about my place in the world, and my relationship to tangata whenua is always developing and doesn’t undermine my sense of self. So I don’t understand the need to talk about us becoming indigenous in the context of how that will redefine Maori. When you say that Maori may be redefined I smell a kiore.
I would also be interested to know who from Maoridom you have been reading. But who in general you are reading if you’ve never come across the name Martin Doutre. If you’re not reading the likes of him, it may help clear the air here for you to link to what you are reading (or talking with).
As an aside, here are the links to the last argy bargy, where you referenced something said by Ansell.
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633462
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17052013/#comment-634309
I’m willing to accept your word if you say that you don’t support Ansell’s premises, but I’d like to see you refuting them when they come up in these discussions.
weka, just seen this comment here. Thanks for the feedback.
I see this, as I say, as something that is about a search for place. It is not a need, it is a curiousity. Well in many ways it is a need – a need for a people recently displaced or tossed out or seeking escape from persecution or oppression to find their feet again. To feel comfortable that their home is their home. I think that is lacking in some ways today. Pakeha don’t feel fully accepted here at times I think. Pakeha still get told to ‘go home’ sometimes.
Our own whanau (the majority ‘wing’) arrived with a full blown culture in place. One fully indigenous to its own previous land. That culture and that community has since been added to by other peoples and subjected to the vagaries of a new raw nation at the end of the world already occupied by another full blown people. It has taken time for pakeha to find their feet again.
It is not something which is decided on by vote of course. It is most definitely something that develops over time. In my opinion that is happening though. It is also a question (pakeha’s place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is ‘our’ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.
…. Some hastily penned further thoughts requiring enhancement and sharpening …….
“It is also a question (pakehaâs place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is âourâ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.”
So nice you are allowing yourself all that vto, almost brings tears to my eyes. If you read some of the comments from some above you will see that it is actually easy to have a sense of place here, a sense of belonging and a sense of peace within your heart about who you are and the home you live in – but that can’t happen when you ignore MÄori and their place in and on this land. It is about working together not replacing – it is about respect and allowing, it is about acceptance and truth. No doubt your research and journey will continue, as it must, until you get one of the basics sorted – the answers are right in front of you if you choose to open your eyes.
I’m sorry this is hard for you vto. I appreciate your latest comment, there is a lot there, complexity, and I don’t feel I can do justice to a reply tonight (been a challenging day today). I think what you have written is worth exploring and is something I’d like to respond to at another time. When you write about things more personally like this it is easier to see what the issues actually are. Thanks.
I have also been curious about a sense of place. I’ve read a lot of research and analysis of it, usually in the realm of “new geography” – an approach to geography that developed in the late 20th century. Basically understanding place is more than just about where a section of society/community/ethnic group has lived.
And there’s ways of understanding one’s place in the world, without trying to ignore the history of racial difference – a human construct with material impacts on lives, where some are dominant and others marginalised.
Some new geographers deal with “race” and place, without erasing the history of racial oppression and marginalisation. It means understanding the historical legacy of Pakeha in colonising Aotearoa.
Some in other countries look at understanding whiteness. RRichard Dyer’s “White” is a classic – about the way whiteness is both dominant and ignored, or rendered invisible.
I have particularly liked the work of Nigel Thrift on place and geography, which also includes the various ways people’s sense of place is influenced by class and other social positions.
And Doreen Massey on gender, culture, globalisation and place.
And agree with marty mars: thinking about one’s place in the world can’t be done without thinking about others and their place and the relationships between us all.
@ vto I agree this is an important topic
I do believe that Pakeha NZers are different from Europeans….one only needs to go overseas to realise this. …And I also believe that Pakeha who have been here for generations have very deep feelings for the land and do have the right to a special sort of standing in New Zealand…..From what I can remember Michael King wrote a lot of Maori history and then when Maori wanted to write their own history and told him to go away he was very hurt…..so Michael King went in search of his own Pakeha identity. “Being Pakeha Now” could have been the title of his book.
I personally know of NZers with absolutely no Maori blood who are imbued with Maori culture and understanding and live alongside Maori ….so much so you would almost think they were a Maori in a Pakeha skin ( maybe they have been reincarnated.. ha ha)…
Also I once met a Maori with long blond hair and blue eyes at university who had a Maori name and said he was Maori…when I thought he was joking he spoke to me in Maori and told me his Mother was Dutch and his Father a Maori….
And this is the case of many NZers. You would be hard pushed to find a “pure” genetic Maori .Also many Pakeha whose families have lived in NZ for generations (eg ancestry British whalers who married Maori women) have some Maori blood…..
I also know of Maori who look Maori but you would think they had the mind set of a European Capitalist ( ha ha)
To complicate this even further some new immigrants adopt everything in NZ culture -, Maori language , culture , tramping , mountaineering , fishing , rugby , sport and beer drinking with such an enthusiasm that they are almost more Maori or Pakeha than the indigenous NZers.!!!!…All to the good … I guess in the end what is important is respect.
PS: Credibility?
We all bring subjectivity to any issue. I try toown mine, vto, partly in the language I use. It’s actually part of examining something objectively and rationally, by making the subjective an explicit object of scrutiny.
All I see in your comments is disavowal of your own subjectivity under claims of total objectivity.
I’ve spent a lot of my life learning about colonisation and its impacts – read widely on it (and written on it as part of courses). And I’ve also spent a lot of my time reading “sub texts” – underlying meanings. Part of such readings includes identifying what is not said – always an important indicator.
Congrats Karol @ 6.3.1.2……….famously well said !
For my part the “specialness” of Maori is not to be unilaterally deprived of Maori, ever.
Yes well North, if you read closely you will notice that Karol’s statement there was her own assumption and nothing to do with my question around King’s reference.
But mustn’t let such realities interfere with our own biases and assumptions eh.
@ vto
Go somewhere quiet and talk to the land …again and again…. it will give you the answers you seek…King did this at the end of his book “Being Pakeha Now” ….This same land has talked to farmers, gardeners, hunters, sailors, mountaineers , trampers, artists and poets…..in the end it is the land that tells you whether you belong and are indigenous. ….it requires silence and reverence.
Chooky, don’t you worry about that I do heaps of it. It is inferred at my comment above at 7.18. I spend more time alone and on in the land that probably 99% of people. Alone, remote, nothing but land sea sky….. It is possibly one of the reasons this subject is excessively raised by me.
@vto OK ….well and good….Well I don’t see the point in arguing about it…..
….The issue really is whether one lives in harmony with the land and cherishes it and derives spiritual sustenance from it….this is the acid test as to whether one is indigenous or not …
…..Or whether one is one of the ‘NEW VULGARIANS’….an exploiter and
de-sacrilizer of the land , an over- populater , a barbarian speculator , a dirty polluter…whose God is materialism and consumerism and profit….and to HELL with the natural environment.
I don’t like Mike Williams as a ‘Spokesperson For Labour’. This morning he put a size 20 foot in his mouth by commenting on policy on housing purchase dampening with negative comments because it will have an immediate increase effect before Labour can be elected in 2014.
Then on top of bad mouthing positive efforts to help this complex difficult problem, felt worldwide, he then increases the fault by referring to Chinese speculators. First that sounds anti-Asian, second he has not referred to the stats on this which show definite peaks for certain western countries, and third he continues his white-anting of the left. Get him out of the media, he can be assessed as 80/20 in his value to the left, with the 80 being against.
Unfortunately Labour don’t appear to measure their value to the left, let alone care about it.
weka
Interesting way of putting it!
Further to my comment above already I have heard John Bank’s whiny little voice castigating the comment about Chinese as if it had been spoken by the Labour leader. Get Mike Williams off Radionz – deny his right to say anything for the left, publicly disagree with him, present him as a turncoat. And do it now. He is bad news for Labour.
And of course on political comment this a.m. Mike Williams hasn’t much to say about reporting on defence force activity and trying to claim everything as being ‘subversive’. He has said something against the surveillance state. Franks is frankly speaking just himself. You know what to expect from him.
Great. Mike Williams makes judgments on Labour’s housing policy based on his own experiences in his area of town – eg being gazumped by an overseas buyer when trying to buy a home, price of rents in his area, etc.
I tried a while ago RoseT. Unfortunately to no avail. It’s been “from the Right [substitute Mike W, Jose P, etc], and from the Right [substitute Mathew H, Steven F, etc]” for quite some time now.
Mike Williams is increasingly using the “I’m in agreement with you [Mathew, Steven]” kaka.
Maybe spending too much time with Paul Henry or fawning over his friendship with Holmes.
. “There’s an avenue for him [Mr Humayun] to go to the police if the guy refused to pay the fare. But in terms of racial abuse, the threshold is very high.”
Susan Devoy. The friend in court of the rednecks. He sounds determined to stop racial abusers getting convicted. Dies she have a clue what her job brief is?
I suggest that the punishment now being inflicted on the bigot is worse for him and better for improving race relations than a conviction would be.
Convicting people for what they think is a dangerous path to start going down.
you can think whatever you like, but you don’t have a right to say whatever you want, wherever you please.
there is large difference between thought and speech (for most anyway)
but you donât have a right to say whatever you want, wherever you please.
You sure?
100%. I suggest you go to your local airport and scuttle about making jokes about bombs.
do try it.
Oh. Did the guy do that?
Is that your comeback? Lame.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10904714
Next the apologist will be saying booze made him do it.
The U$ was and is where the implementation of Neoliberalism started. It is the garbage ideology that Yankey continues to follow. What is the result? A once great Nation because of the New deal is now on the point of collapse economically and socially with an immense privatised prison gulag, a corrupt finacial class in bed with a corrupt government, a corporate fascist state in reality and yet our crazy politicos still buy into the American Nightmare, including NSA style spying on kiwis who have contrary political opinions and activists. Why is the U$ so influential? Mainly because it has a huge military presence which we gratefully hide behind to put off China becoming the regional leader in the Pacific and to help us if Asia’s huge numbers decide to invade us.
The American Nightmare Yankey is pushing us to with stripping minimal income rights from the poorest Kiwis and further privatisation:
“The United States of… Class War, Inequality, and Poverty
New survey data shows perilous state of US economy and suffering of a majority underclass”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/28-1
“It’s time that America comes to understand that many of the nation’s biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position.”
“There is no class war. The 99% is in complete and abject submission to the 1% through the phony (D) vs. (R) bullshit paradigm. The working class has been corralled for shearing by the Democratic Party, which is simply a flavor of the Plutocracy Party which runs the United States.
Obama and most of the Democrats are merely reflections of this reality. The fact that the Plutocracy could get Americans to overcome their racism in the election of an African American Plutocracy Candidate is a testament to the success of the (D) vs. (R) propaganda meme.
The working class cannot fight back until it is able to have a voice – and giving it a voice is the thing that the Plutocrats fear most: Hence, billions are spent maintaining the absurd Kabuki illusion that there are two parties in the United States.
It is time to wake up and reject the false D/R bullshit and cast off the self-fulfilling fear that only the Plutocracy Party’s candidates are “electable”.
There will be no change in the status quo until the Democratic Party – the primary tool of the Plutocracy to keep the working class in line – is dis-empowered and left bereft of its national power.”
This.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/07/28/ap-poll-4-in-5-us-adults-struggle-with-poverty-joblessness/
And this
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/07/20130710_santelli.jpg
Is the Wizard of Oz just a shyster in a cloud of green smoke – is he an Aussie is he, is he, Is he an Aussie is he eh? (Old comedy song)
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
Radio nz this a.m.
Oz- Kiwis falling through the cracks in Australia (â16âČâ39âłâ)
09:30 With Maree O’Halloran – the official spokesperson for the National Welfare
Rights Network (NWRN) and the Director of Sydney’s Welfare Rights Centre. Duncan Sandilands – Founder of the Fair Go 4 All campaign.
and
Concept of operationshttp://www.fairgo4all.com/concept/
Further
http://www.fairgo4all.com/phil-goff-continues/
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/214673/campaign-for-fair-go-in-australia
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888229
Auckland-born student Diana Drysdale became a military cadet at 13, and has only ever wanted to be in the airforce.
But the 15-year-old, who lives near Brisbane, will not be able to fulfil that dream in her adopted home of Australia because her family will never qualify as residents….
The Australian law change was designed to stop backdoor migration from the Pacific Islands and Hong Kong Chinese, who gained New Zealand residency to settle in Australia. Mrs Drysdale believed that the effect it had on military recruitment was unintentional and undesirable.
“The military recruitment people here say they can’t believe it either. They get applications every week from Kiwis wanting to join. It is crazy.”
Mr Sandilands, 53, served as a territorial soldier for seven years. His frustration with being excluded from the ADF was deepened by his family’s rich Australian history – his great-grandfather was Lord Mayor of Melbourne and his grandfather fought with Australian troops at Gallipoli.
(It is surprising that the strongest claim we have for having equal rights in Australia and being treated with the respect of an allied neighbouring country with diplomatic and economic treaties and as we extend most of the rights to Oz residents, is through wanting to serve in their armed forces. Life sure is queer.)
I’ve often wondered when a NZ gubbamint of whatever flavour is going to ask the Australians when they intend putting the NZ back in ANZAC. At the moment it’s only pulled out on ANZAC day mornings.
The last tune-ty, John Key was too busy sucking up to Joolya and looking for foto-ops so he can reflect on all those hoi pear people in his scrap book after he fucks off into the Hawaiian wilderness.
Tim
And it has been shown from journalists queries on Anzac Day that many young people don’t know that it stands for the combined forces of our two countries. It’s just a word that they don’t connect with NZ at all.
The Key Government’s plan for us:
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/the-spirit-of-the-workhouse-is-alive-and-well-in-tory-britain/#comments
A brilliant insight into the reasons for current social policy towards beneficiaries.
@ Johnm
Great link
I question your use of the word ‘social’ policy though, ‘antisocial’ would be a more accurate term. đŻ
Anyone else see this?
Prime Minister John Key, speaking to ONE News deputy political editor Jessica Mutch in South Korea, says heâs is prepared to compromise with NZ First leader Winston Peters to get further support for his GCSB Bill in Parliament.
âI wouldnât rule that out. What Iâve said is that thereâll be the SOP process, so a Supplementary Order Paper. So when the bill comes back to Parliament, itâll have its second reading. Then what happens from there is the committee stage. At the committee stage, we already know a list of things that Peter Dunne will introduce. Now, in a theoretical world, if NZ First or any other political party – letâs take NZ First – came along and said, âWe will support the legislation if you make these changes,â and they were acceptable to the government, there is always that window of opportunity to make that change,â Mr Key says.
Mr Key told the Q+A programme that his office had approached Mr Peters on numerous occasions, âoffering to sit down with me, the officials, in writing. Weâve put all of those sorts of requests there,â but when asked if the lack of response meant it was unlikely the two could work something out, Key says: ânever say neverâ.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1307/S00346/prime-minister-not-ruling-out-further-changes-to-gcsb-bill.htm
So, Key is crawling to Peters now?
i am pretty sure that i have seen Winston Peters on my TV directly saying that the Slippery little Shyster has not contacted NZFirst on any changes that party would want in exchange for supporting that legislation,
If that is the case, Slippery’s latest is simply Him using the media, and i should put an emphasis on the word ‘using’, to be the Slippery little Shyster we all know Him to be…
I wonder whether NatKey are courting Peters for opposite reasons than they are presenting: In order to discourage people to vote for NZF?
He might be an option against National; and therefore if people are making that choice against voting for NZF and find out there is a chance Peters would team up with National; then perhaps less support, under 5% returned and bingo! Kingmaker no more. Back to Act & co
Leopard……..I see the picture……..scary as it “oligarchy” is.
No doubt Mine Potty@Gower and DungCan Gooner will have something rivetingly profound to offer the homogenous listener/viewer.
Part of me feels it’s all played as a shitty game. First and second paragraph. A game of self advancement
Not to overstate it they are fucking round with the nation’s psyche. Our values, our democracy.
@ North
Glad you ‘got’ what I was wondering, because I see I made an error in my comment, which makes it a little hard to understand! (The second time I wrote ‘NZF’, it should have read ‘National’).
They really are fucking around with the nation’s psyche, our values and our democracy. ~ Well said
Leopard, i will take the Slippery little Shysters new found ‘trust’ in Winston Peters and NZFirst on face value, that face value being that even with the ‘Hairdo’ and the ‘Crim’ one small % of vote loss on the 2011 election result and the Shyster will be Slipping right on out of here,
Add to that no Maori Party in the next Parliament,(all gone-burger), and where have the Rats got left to run,
The only possible way i can see that National and it’s head used car salesman can Govern after November 2014 is with the help of NZFirst,(if they can get 5% of the vote)…
The moral case for science and innovation policy
Science and innovation are good for society and thus we should do it. Forget the financials, society is about more than just making a profit.
This is interesting.
Radionz on Windows on the World which started at 8.20 pm and I don’t know how long it goes has something to say to us. If you can’t hear it on Radionz and I think they don’t have audio rights then you can I think get it by going direct to BBC.
They are talking about Kenya where there is 40% unemployment. Yet there is a vital economy developing. As ours becomes more moribund and the government finds new ways of stripping the poor and poorish of tax while the fat cats put theirs on Cloud Nine or somewhere, this might help communities to avoid going bankrupt as in USA.
A firm in Kenya, and there are Kenyan, Chinese, Connecticut and Danish nationals interviewed also, has developed a way of making payments or accessing money through an ordinary mobile phone. It seems that you buy a credit at one of their offices which is like charging your cellphone. Then you have virtual money wherever you go and that cuts out theft. If you are caught short at a remote location I think they said that you can get a small loan immediately. They have found the system works well.
This may be necessary for this country if the banks are going to screw us. These fancy-pancy new aids to nil balances from these super sensitive money-fly cards are apparently being foisted on us. The Kenyan idea would be a good alternative to having to carry lots of cash if they are going to reform the eftpos and credit card systems against our best interests.
This type of vitality might indicate that areas like this are worth shifting to, as NZ appears to have reached the downward slope of the bell curve and is determined to keep going forward, in that downward direction. Australia is not attractive under their present divisive policies, Oz on one side and us on the other. Might be worth while learning Swahili!
good reason for leaving the car at home as often as possible. An article says research shows NZ cities are as polluted as bigger cities overseas.
Become a special surveillance operative in Operation Goose. A unique protest against the GCSB Bill. Them spying on us, us spying one them.
Enlist here.
http://www.facebook.com/events/486194154796447/
Robbie Kaiviti.
New Zealand People’s Mandate Party.