Was listening to Shearer on Morning Report. Just realised that my jaw has been sore as I have been clenching my teeth in trepidation that he might trip over his tongue. Whew. He hasn’t been THAT bad. Some good points made.
Especially the comments about vested interests in the real estate industry making a lot of money out of foreign sales.
Best form of defence is attack. Question the motivation of these opponents.
Just heard a bit of Him defending Labour’s latest move on housing, interestingly someone here was having a nit-pick about Dave (the incumbent),calling the policy ‘his’ the other day,and, that’s the only point where he stumbled having to self edit meant that this came out as ”my/our policy”,
Dave,(the incumbent),has come along in leaps and bounds in being able to deliver the message without the aaah ummm extended silence that punctuated His earlier efforts,
He still tho has one major problem in that those that didn’t get their Dave,(not the incumbent),into the top spot still wont accept Him as leader with a large full stop…
The closer we get to the election, the less indifference Cunliffe supporters will show, I reckon. Whatever their feelings about the leadership, I’m confidant the prospect of knocking off Key will be enough for most Labour supporters to put the party, and NZ, ahead of their antipathy toward Shearer.
There was no antipathy towards Shearer to begin with. Just a belief that Cunliffe was the better candidate. The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.
Knocking off Key has always been the number one priority. There’s no reason why Shearer can’t do it, and I know of no-one who won’t be cheering him on. If he has the nous to stop listening to Cunliffe’s detractors and places Cunliffe back on the front bench where he belongs then all the better…
And then it will be too late to get rid of him if he fucks it up. And then we have 3 more years of a bunch of sell it all megalomaniacs, better he stands down now, in deference to someone who can at least string a sentence together, without stumbling ad mumbling all over the place. And his preoccupation with the word ‘I’. Someone needs to tell him that there is NO ‘I’ in TEAM. And he NEEDS a team to win and at the moment that is the biggest missing link in the Labour Party at present. So no team no win!
But without a team he’s just another also ran. Who will lose his shirt, and us our assets, there is too much at stake to have a NON team player in charge!
+1. Absolutely. Someone seems to have told him he should say “I” to show he’s in charge, or something. It needs to be “we”. It’s a team that makes policy, not Shearer, it’ll be a team that gets elected and implements policy.
No need to compete with Key by saying “I”. It’s fine for National to continue to show they’re all told what to do in every area of policy by a dodgy money trader.
I know of no Labour Party member who used that term. Even so, it was ultra mild compared to what some were calling Cunliffe. You do have a very selective memory sometimes McFlock.
You missed me. And I have, until this time, voted labour for the last 40 years. But not this time. Why should I vote for someone who does not give a rats arse about us, who is only interested in being the leader, even if the fucking shooting box goes down the crapper. And that’s what Mumblefucks legacy will be! The man who sank democracy in NZ, for a pay packet, and a fucking title. Way to go Shearer!
So much for Anne’s “I know of no Labour Party member who used that term”.
So much for this bullshit about nice people versus intractable careerists who would bring labour down to keep their jobs for three more years. Maybe if you guys can get over yourselves, then you could help the Left get somewhere rather than feeding bullshit to jonolists.
Awwww CV, just because they’re tossers (if they even exist as a distinct group that is as entrenched as the acronym implies), you wanna be a tosser too?
Now what did you learn in kindy about that approach when you wanted to play with truckie and another kid wouldn’t let you?
Felix: not really. I’m pointing out she was wrong, that her perception was off. The cunliffe-crowd have given much more than they’ve got in dirty behaviour, if comments I’ve seen here are anything to go by. And if comments here aren’t anything to go by, then that speaks for itself.
Anne, I thought Shearer not sprinting to the front of the hall at the GCSB meeting to grab the mic, instead allowing Cunliffe to speak and applauding what he said was an indication that he trusts Cunliffe, so maybe the front bench isn’t out of the question.
Hear, hear, Anne. I ventured into David Cunliffe’s office today to pick up some flyers to be delivered re the Power N Z meeting this Saturday at Kelston and walked out feeling generally despondent. I keep hoping that DC will be back on the front bench very soon.
Hey, cut it. You silly pawn.
Stop, for goodness sake, framing it as “anti Shearer = pro Cunliffe”.
You are eating the lines of the TV3 news-creators and Robertson.
All Labour supporters want a fairer society and to urgently roll back the inequities driven by Key & Co.
How fucking dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that. My attitude towards the leadership is driven by that one cannon.
Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying … Let us not change anything.
That bullshit has us heading to an election defeat and three more years of Key and a very unfair society.
Yeah, because typos or incorrect spelling are really important right now.
“Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.”
But bad12 didn’t refer to the standard, so it’s reasonable to assume he meant all Cunliffe supporters and all Labour people who have criticised Shearer.
There are very good reasons why the dominant narrative here has been anti-Shearer. I think you are one of the few people who doesn’t get it.
Eeeek, how did i get into the conversation this far into the debate Dave V Dave, umm no my previous comment didn’t mention the Standard, but, the basis of my comment when it comes to the acceptance of the incumbent Dave is solely based around what i have read here at the Standard,
In the real world i don’t tend to have conversations with Labour supporters about who they support as leader, as i am not a Labour voter nor member such inquistions would possibly be seen rightly or wrongly as stirring…
But when B referred to “all Labour supporters”, it is reasonable to assume that those who comment here are a subset of that, no? Including B? Unless of course B is just another commentator overly concerned about the leadership of a party they don’t even vote for.
I get that there are good reasons to not be particularly impressed or awed by Shearer as leader, but no, I don’t get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
If you think that the leadership is not a pivotal issue and that Labour is still on course for victory, of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
Rhino referencing a woodchipper was extreme. The extreme end of behaviour here, but I still don’t get it (even in jest). I don’t get how people can call a simple internal equality policy political suicide, especially this far out from the election. Nor do I get why people complain that not mentioning state housing policy while announcing other policy is a sign of closeted neoliberalism.
Criticism, that I can understand. But jumping at ideological shadows like some sort of lame “ghost hunting” reality TV show? Nah, I don’t get it.
“I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.”
Pretty simple. Many see the problem within Labour (the ABCs and Shearer) as preventing any shift away from the neoliberal clusterfuck are are in. This time period will be remember as the second time in my generation that Labour betrayed the country. It’s not as obvious as the 80s, but we’re in a holding pattern now waiting for the ABCs to retire or die. We can’t afford that wait.
Bigger picture McFlock. It’s not about Shearer, it’s about why Shearer is leader at this point in time and why nothing is being done about it.
Putting aside the vexed question of just WHO should be sitting in the leaders chair for the moment can i ask you Weka if you firmly believe that, just to be topical, Labour would have a different housing policy than the one announced???,
Would David Cunliffe have a different ‘flagship policy’ and if so can you cite such a policy difference???
The leadership of Labour where i am concerned is one of who can sell Labour to the electorate the best,
As a supporter of those way further left than Labour i have to realize that to make any gains which betters my level of society, my class if we want to be ugly but totally realistic, Labour will be the party of Government that such gains if they can be made must be chiseled off of,
Much of the denigration of the current Labour leader seems to me to be more propelled by those who want the party to be something that it just is not,
How different in issues of ‘bread and butter’ would Labour be if it swapped one Dave for the other Dave, i would suggest that there would be very little difference as the middle class have grown Labour have grown into being middle class with it and are thus intent on formulating policy that definitely benefits that middle class,
Labour as a % of the party vote are then quite naturally a party in the 30,s as far as % goes, the Green Party, Mana Party, and, Maori Party hold the 15% of further left than Labour support that MMP allows the freedom of choice…
I agree with much of that bad, and like you am fairly pragmatic in that I’m not expecting Labour to be moving radically left any time soon. So do I think that under Cunliffe Labour would be making different policy? Not particularly, but I guess there would be more room to move left (as opposed to the very thin space now). My point was more that it looks to me like the people in power in caucus would rather be in power in opposition than allow change to happen. That’s the betrayal. They’ll let NACT have another 3 years while they’re playing stupid factional power games internally. Don’t know how the membership can stand it.
Bigger picture, okay:
Labour policy is pretty good so far.
Ideal government will involve Labour + greens + mana.
Greens are likely to get 10â15% of the vote.
Therefore labour needs 35â40% of the vote, so anything mana gets above that is gravy.
Currently, 35% for labour in a campaign is easily doable. 40% would be a big stretch of probability, but not so much in a year’s time. Things change.
So, what’s the big deal? Why do people get so worked up, calling commenters “pawns” or tools of TPTB. I don’t get it.
Yeah, let’s just trundle along, tralalala, not to worry, she’ll be right.
I suppose the big deal is that as bad as things are now, another 3 years of NACT will do irrepairable damage to that country. Exponentially more than they have done now and than they did in the 90s.
Someone said a while back that it was ok for the left to limp over the finish line to become the next govt. What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to risk losing the next election, given what is at stake. You above post makes it sound like, oh it would be nice to win, but it’s not really that bad if we don’t. For me it’s much more critical than that.
But there is no move that would guarantee a lab/grn government. After a certain level, you just have to admit that some things are out of our control.
Would [insert here] be a better speaker than shearer during the campaign? Possibly/probably. Would that person also have some quality or problem that will be done to death by the jonolists? Yep. Would they make bad moves, as well as good? Yep. Will these be blown out of proportion by the supporters of failed candidates as well as jonolists? Probably. Would garner/gower still foment the “imminent ruction within caucus” line? Yep. [Insert here] might be able to improve the polls, but then again a new leader has new targets to hit.
So yeah, Shearer’s not perfect, but nor will his replacement be. It’s not a case of “she’ll be right”, it’s a case of recognising that point where “constructive criticism” becomes “cheap invented bullshit for jono, otherwise pointless”.
McFlock, of all the things you don’t understand, this is the biggie. It’s not that Shearer isn’t perfect. It’s that he is really bad at his job. See the difference? Even if you don’t think that he is, surely you can understand that people that do think this are really frustrated (given what is at stake) and might be more angry about the situation than you.
Good to see Phil Twyford posting in the Housing Policy thread. Liked this
Even if he were really bad at his job (which I don’t think he is), no, I don’t get how people can’t understand that they’re getting so worked up that (and I seriously believe this) they’re hampering any chance of a left wing government much more than they think Shearer’s performance is.
This isn’t a traffic accident or similar emergency, where we’re all trying to think through a massive adrenaline rush that hampers our perceptions and if we don’t act this second people die. We are all sitting in front of some manner of VDU with an input interface of some kind. I seriously don’t get how people fall into a state of hearing a competent performance on the radio and the main thrust of their comment is how they were waiting to be dismayed. That can’t be doing their blood pressure any good, and it’s not Shearer’s fault. It’s their own.
Some people really need to take some time off the political news and gossip, and just chillax for a while.
felix:
1 is down to your perception, and 2 is a baseless assertion that merely serves to justify your opinion. Basically, 2 means that in order to have someone in the top job next election, Labour need someone who is outstanding in all facets as leader. There is nobody in caucus like that, so you might as well just have a smoke, enjoy the view and put the blindfold on when the time comes.
“Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying ⌠Let us not change anything.”
Not so, Boadicea.
My preffered leader is Cunliffe, though I’m leaning toward Little. However, I have consistently said that policy is more important. And I have also consistently said that the leadership is a done deal. Shearer’s it for better or worse.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
“How dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that.”
Whether you remember or not, many commenters here have said things like ‘not voting Labour till they change the leader’. What I said is that I belieive that atitude will diminish as we get closer to the election. I hope I’m right.
I have never called David Shearer names, and my anxiety about Labour under his leadership has always been based on the fear that the party has been hijacked again and is in the process of being neutered. If that fear still persists by the time of the election I will neither vote Labour nor assist Labour – I will instead vote either Green or Mana. Politicians are there to represent us. They are not there to be proxy rulers on behalf of people who do not give a damn about us.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
As opposed to a concerted media effort by his colleagues to attack and discredit him using lines around a non-existant coup, even before Conference had finished?
I Have called Shearer names and I stand by what I said. Shearer is a ME, ME, Politician he uses I instead of WE ALL the time.
CunLiffe on the other Hand has the ability to explain the most complicated shit in layman’s terms so ALL voters can understand him. Key is shit scared of Cunliffe. And not only that He would wipe the floor with Key in a debate. God help us with Captain Stutterbum in the debates!
That’s a galling assumption to presume the loyalty of all us volunteers, no matter what. That’s precisely the attitude that has seen members walk away over the last decade – or haven’t you noticed?
Every Labour Party member has a duty to hold the leader to account. And to support them when they perform. Indeed according to our constitution we now have the right. And so we do, including here. We invest volunteer time and expect results. Leader: deliver.
Instead, the Labour Party by every single measure is failing. Funding. Profile. Coherence. Membership. Media management. Polling. You can offload blame for that to Cunliffe loyalists all you want.
But in fact yours is the attitude that needs to change: blind loyalty – and you expect come election just press the political-guilt button again. The Labour Party is a walking hollow corpse, and those electrodes don’t work any more. With your expressed attitude, the best chance for Labour to do better is for you and people like you including caucus to look in the mirror and tell the truth.
Hear Hear! to that Ad.
I regard my vote for Labour’s 3rd term to have been partly due to “blind loyalty” and a vote for the least worst option at the time.
Not again. There are actually other options.
Thus far, I’m BEGINNING to see some good initiatives coming from Labour, and a SLIGHT improvement in Shearer’s performance, but UNTIL a few of them at least start to realise they don’t have some divine right to my vote, acknowledge more openly that the neo-liberal agenda has not worked and that they will at least explore alternatives – they’ll not get my vote again.
More than that, they sure as hell won’t get my membership or financial support again until they’ve established a decent sort of record.
Thanks, Ad and Tim for offering those words, which actually seem to confirm my point about the antipathy toward Shearer. Ad, it gives me heart to know that there are folks like you out there who can be persuaded to support Labour if the circumstances are right. For me, that’s policy. For some people, it’s leadership. I really hope that come election time, we’ll have the best of both and a better than even chance of changing NZ for the good..
BTW, if you’d read my comments down the years, you’d know it’s not blind loyalty that drives me (or, I suspect, anyone else). It’s a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, giving the lack of a mass supported socialist alternative. The LP is not within cooee of the kind of party I’d like to be in, but I keep trying in my own small way to move it to the left.
“Itâs a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, …etc.”
TRP – we’re in agreement, except that my point is that there is now (almost) another alternative for that ‘mass’. What’s required is for Labour to step up: to demolish the little Hipkins hissy fits; to spark when required; to hold the bovver boys in check when it’s quite obviously counter-productive, and release them when its not; to publicly and vociferously denounce the Natz bullshit at each and every opportunity (without delay – given the 24hr spin cycle – and there have been plenty). I realise the opportunities are precious – given the state of the MSM and its predisposition – which makes that all the more important.
So far – in the scheme of things, there are better alternatives. I MIGHT (at a very very very small pinch – or should that be a large one) be persuaded to give Labour another chance. Given the record so far, and after almost a lifetime – it’s not likely in 2014.
99 to 1 – that could change – I.e. NOT Labour.
I don’t think I’m a masochist – or a martyr – right now, that’s what would be required to even consider it
Shearer has been unable to articulate the new housing policy clearing. For the last 18 months, his performances have been cringeworthy. There were those of us who were prepared to give him a chance, but with polling staying around 31%, there is no way that Shearer can lead Labour to victory.
A third term National Government simply cannot be an option.
Worth keeping an eye on this thread : http://johnquiggin.com/2013/07/28/oz-nz/ where Aussie economist John Quiggin is looking at the comparative performance of NZ/AUS performance post war.
Wellington getting rocked by a 5.x earthquakes and a cluster of 3.x.
Pete George using an evidence free approach to everything. Perhaps he should retrain as a jonolist? I posted that Jenny was wrong in saying Shearer said anything “angrily”. He didn’t. Having listened to the video Jenny referred to, she appears to have confused someone else intejecting with the words “not a review” with Shearer. And for the record, Pete, you really are a retarded fool if you think Jenny’s silly claims being repeated on TV3 wasn’t at the core of my post.
Jon getting spied on by the NZDF is disturbing. Particularly since it appears that the only reason for doing so is to prevent embarrassment. I have been known to have the odd beer with Jon. Offhand I cannot think of anyone less likely to want to cause soldiers harm. But he does seem tenacious about digging out dodgy shit. Definitely a journalist…
The NZDF revelations are extremely disturbing. It reveals a distinct lack of understanding of democratic principles in the upper hierarchy. You can’t save democracy by undermining democracy, fellas.
Now we now how John Armstrong gets off – a pap piece on Simon Bridges.
To think that our politics must be reported in terms of applauding Bridges’ entirely unremarkable and boringly prosaic “elder gentleman” jibe, as though it were Churchillian.
Armstrong seems to be engaged in a wilful dumbing down. Why else right this shit as major stuff ?
It is becoming more apparent that between them the Heralds Fifth Column of commenters are producing pieces in that particular shoddy rag, working as a tag team in the vein of Labour must do this while pimping for support for the likes of National’s Bridges and the equally as awful Jamie Lee Ross, (who has something extremely ugly lurking just beyond His frontal lobe),
Sooner or later as the fashion dictates the Herald will hide it’s on-line edition behind a pay-wall which will be a joy as i wont be tempted to read their utter sh*t Fifth Column political jonolism anymore…
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future… As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZ’s sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasn’t already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
As part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa. Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out “bigot” chant, “racist” chant, “hater” chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
A few days ago, apparent support for something like this position was tumbled on within the late historian Michael King’s book A Short History of NZ, written a decade or so ago. In it King refers to Maori as New Zealand’s first indigenous people. What would King mean by that? It implies more than one, obviously. It implies that there are or will be other indigenous people subsequent to Maori. I read around and around the particular piece to try to glean some more to help paint the picture but couldn’t locate much to assist… (no longer have the book so can’t reference but it was in a post-WWII chapter around what the govt was doing with the dept of native affairs I think)
‘Indigenous’, from it’s literal meaning would tend to suggest that none of us are, indigenous that is, none of us occurred here naturally as we all came from other places,
Maori with the literal translation that i have, ‘Normal’, would seem a better descriptive, your debate of course is around what a Pakeha academic has chosen to label Maori as, i doubt many Maori have or do use the term indigenous…
Your plan to get rid of the Treaty won’t work – others far more bright, well read and intelligent have tried and are trying. Why not try the honest approach and just put up your agenda instead of lurking around it – it’s pretty obvious anyway but being honest would at least give a true reference point to begin actual discussions – may I suggest a list would help.
Have to agree. Vto, yet again your comment skirts around the issues making them vague enough that it’s hard to know what your actual point is. So I’m guessing that you are referring to the people that believe various theories around pre-Maori settlers, but who unfortunately (a) don’t have any background/experience that lends their views credibility and (b) are often connected to white supremacist groups in NZ or internationally. Then you wonder why the term racist comes up so often.
btw, I’ve had discussions with people and read articles re Pakeha indigeneity that never reference the racist arguments of people like Ansell or Doutre. These conversations ask questions like what does it mean to be indigenous? What are the cultural and spiritual aspects that are associated with bein indigenous? What is the relationship between indigenous and the land? These conversations happen without any need to take anything away from Maori, and for the most part they aren’t based in Pakeha insecurity. Why are you not taking part in these conversations?
You might want to re-consider the circles you are moving in, and the kinds of material you are reading. I also hear Maori who talk with ambivalence about who was here first. If you don’t understand the reasons why they do that, or why they’re not going to engage in the debate you want, then again, you are talking to the wrong people. Until I see some attempt by you to engage with Maori on their own terms, I can only assume you are like other Pakeha that are interested in the things that support their ethnocentric view instead of being open to wider, sometimes contradictory perspectives.
From what I remember King believes that non-Maori can become indigenous, so when he refers to ‘first’ indigenous he is stating his belief that Maori were here ‘first’.
But I would have to see an actual quote, and in context. Maybe it’s actually an editing mistake.
Pretty much the exact same as you weka. Nothing more and nothing less. It is another piece of a very large picture about maori and pakeha place in these islands, that is all.
The reason it was posted is that the idea in King’s statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.
let the placing of the 1,000,000 piece jigsaw puzzle continue ………
Anyway, I seem to remember the last time you started up on this, you referenced someone as supporting your argument, and that person turned out to be known racist and white supremacist John Ansell (and we only learned that because I searched for the audio, listened to it, and then reported back to the ts thread). So I don’t really trust you when you say you read something once. Your ability to misrepresent your argument is now well known. Am pretty sure that by the end of this round we will have demonstrated that Michael King didn’t say what you think he said, that you are misrepresenting his views, and that what you really believe is more along the lines of Doutre and co. I’m happy to be proved wrong, but you never say what you actually think, and then we find bits of the jigsaw hidden under the tablecloth or on the floor.
King as i point out above has mistakenly used the term ‘indigenous’, to be indigenous Maori or anyone else would have had to have been resident here when our little islands split off from where-ever they split off of,
So what is there to debate about King’s mistaken use of the English language…
Hi bad12, thanks for your comment there. I understand your point there but take this as being indigenous within the NZ context i.e. on the assumption that Maori are indigenous…….
Point taken VTO, but working off of an assumption that in its entirety is incorrect leaves you in danger of basing everything else upon that incorrect assumption thus reaching a wrong conclusion,
A far better description of Maori would be ‘first people’ which is entirely unambiguous, it is then easy to ‘see’ that such a first people had ‘property rights’ not just in the European sense but in far more ephemeral areas,
Obviously such property rights do not translate from the Maori into the English in their entirety which is why we still have Treaty issues,
Inherent in such issues is the Maori ”it is mine but it is not mine”, in English that term is totally ambiguous and a contradiction, for Maori hardly so…
“A far better description of Maori would be âfirst people'”
Only if you accept that Pakeha definitions trump Maori ones. If you deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous, then you exclude them from their relationship with other indigenous peoples in the world. And you make this about reductionist biological constructs instead of holitic ones. I don’t see how that helps matters.
Just as an aside – somewhere (and I’ll try and locate it from a uni history paper if I can), there is a U.N definition of the descriptor ‘Indigenous’ which not only suggests the concept of ‘first people’, but also those subjected to some sort of subsequent ‘oppression’ or adverse cultural influence (such as colonisation).
It might be a losing battle to locate however – the attic is knee deep in old notes and books and I no longer own the place.
Here’s indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region,
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
LOLZ, i have never heard any Maori, those in the family or from elsewhere, use the term indigenous, that does not preclude that some might of course,
A bigger LOLZ is your contention that if i deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous i deny them something, along with your lead into that concerning Pakeha definitions trumping those of Maori,
My contention that ‘first people’ is a far better description of Maori when measured against ‘indigenous’ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of ‘first people’ is akin to the American Indian self description of ‘first nations people’,
If you asked my nieces and nephews whether or not they are indigenous i can assure you the reply would be one large HAH???,
Therein lies the disconnect, ‘indigenous’ is an entirely Pakeha concept, ask my lot instead how they come to ‘belong here’ and you will get a recitation of ‘whakapapa’ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Indigenous then can come no closer in comparison than the divide between Maori and Pakeha that has always exsisted…
Well, yes. Indigenous is a European term. And originally I think it was just applied to country of birth. But it is a term adopted by indenous people – maybe more politcal than in everyday language.
As I understand it “First Nation” – also a useful term – is one coined in Canada and applied to indigenous people there.
he First People were believed to be a mysterious group of ancient humans, supposedly the first race of humans to evolve on the planet. The First People were the creators of the Machine and were thought to have been exterminated by a mysterious event. In fact, The First People were Walter Bishop, with possible aid from Astrid Farnsworth and Ella Blake.
First Peoples Worldwide was first developed in 1997 by Cherokee social entrepreneur Rebecca Adamson, as a program of her non-profit First Nations Development Institute. In 2005, Rebecca and her daughter, Neva, founded First Peoples Worldwide as a full-fledged organization in its own right. We focus on funding local development projects in Indigenous communities all over the world while creating bridges between our communities and corporations, governments, academics, NGOs and investors in their regions. We facilitate the use of traditional Indigenous knowledge in solving todayâs challenges, including climate change, food security, medicine, governance and sustainable development.
There is no rigid definition of what makes a group Indigenous, but the United Nations and the International Labour Organization have outlined a few characteristics that usually define an Indigenous group:
â We are descended from the pre-colonial/pre-invasion inhabitants of our region.
â We maintain a close tie to our land in both our cultural and economic practices.
â We suffer from economic and political marginalization as a minority group.
â A group is considered Indigenous if it defines itself that way.
bad12: ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Well, if someone asked where I belong, or where my place is, I’d go into the places my ancestors have been, and their cultural connections etc. Often it’s stuff I don’t find worth celebrating, but, it is what it is.
LOLZ, Karol, we have then come full circle in the debate from what i said in my first comment,
In Maori the closest i can come to the term ‘indigenous’ is in fact the word Maori for which i have a translation to mean ‘Normal’ and in terms of the definition of indigenous ”originating or occurring naturally in a country or region” would seem an adequate fit,
Scholars of the reo might of course be able to submit a far more definitive term of indigenous but Maori does it for me and ‘first people’ seems far more defining than indigenous for those who need some other form of descriptive other than Maori,
Lol, must be a slow day i don’t normally indulge in such wordly debates…
Hereâs indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
That definition comes from biology. A different definition, with regards to people, has been in use for a long time. Sorry if you and your whanau haven’t come across that before, but it’s been used by Maori for ages, including internationally.
My contention that âfirst peopleâ is a far better description of Maori when measured against âindigenousâ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of âfirst peopleâ is akin to the American Indian self description of âfirst nations peopleâ,
Except the racists use it to point out that Maori got here just a bit earlier than Pakeha and therefore don’t really have that much right to be treaty partners or call themselves tangata whenua or whatever.
Therein lies the disconnect, âindigenousâ is an entirely Pakeha concept,
Well by that argument, we can’t use the word ‘Maori’ to refer to people of Iwi decent.
ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Ae, a fairly acceptable definition of indigenous imo.
Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?
“Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?”
no such need
no such claim
Really Karol, that is entirely assumption and projection on your part. Why have you done that? Why don’t you just answer the actual question about King’s point?
We can’t answer the actual question abotu King’s point, because you haven’t posted King’s point. What you’ve done is presented a version of King’s point amongst a whole bunch of other points and it’s hard to know what the fuck you mean. I feel manipulated, by you. You are setting us up to garner support for your covert views, instead of just being honest about what you think. That’s why people now call bullshit on your posts about ethnicity straightaway.
ffs give it up. Everytime. Simple questions weka, simple questions. And now it has happened again – why do you obsess about the personal? Why is every question treated as some kind of pointer to some other agenda that I don’t have? You are like that other commenter above who never ever comments on the issue and only ever on the person who makes the comment.
I recall you saying a while ago that the ‘who’ of a comment is at least as important as the comment made. I would suggest that this feature of your thinking is bananas and is what is taking you down this path of paranoia. Try concentrating on the actual issues.
Correct – it is not important or relevant to creating a sense of place for pÄkehÄ, unless to create a sense of place, that means reducing MÄori which is what you are trying to do. Many have found their place here by accepting MÄori and accepting what happened here and accepting the way the world is now – but not you vto, you continue to try and create division and anger by pushing your views out there as if they were somehow objective and devoid of your own personal baggage – which they aren’t. Your views are aligned with ansell and 1law4all and you diminish yourself by trying to pretend otherwise. I have no problem saying that MÄori are indigenous in all the vagaries of that word, because they fulfill the definition set out by others of what indigenous means.
These type of debates, fomented by you, always follow the same trajectory yet you cannot stop yourself can you? Why? They bolster your twisted view of the world that’s why, they reinforce your preconceived ideas and strengthen your bigotry by providing evidence in your own mind of why and what you already believe. You don’t discuss or debate in good faith – you just use the good arguments of others to help you continue to see the world through a distorted lens.
There’s that paranoia and complication thing again. Try reading the first two sentences in the post.
And perhaps you could highlight which comments in my opening post were about any other race issue other than indigeneity origins rather than yelling swear words in my face.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⌠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
Right there, you start muddying the waters. Because you fail to grasp the significance of the way tangata whenua were colonised.
<IAs part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa.
Really? Citation needed? Because Africaner were major oppressors of the indigenous people of Africa.
And it still doesn’t answer the question why you want to claim “indigenous”‘ status, when it will largely work to blur historical memory about colonisation?
vto, if it’s not important to you, why do you keep raising issues around it?
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⌠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already.
All I can tell from that is this:
1. you post on things Maori-Pakeha from time to time
2. someone (we don’t know who) has suggested on ts that other-than-Maori will soon be designated indigenous (but we don’t know who, by who, or how).
What did you want to happen next?
Did you read the link I gave about Ani Mikaere’s view on Pakeha and being indigenous?
Meta issue (and manipulation set up):
Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out âbigotâ chant, âracistâ chant, âhaterâ chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
Fuck off vto. That’s a classic example of you making an assertion about something but leaving it to the mind readers amongst us to know what you are talking about.
edit: Actually, doubly fuck off, because even when I do respond to the actual main issue you raise, when I take the trouble to do so, you simply ignore that and go for the surrounding meta argument. I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have no genuine interest in the topic, you simply raise the issue here so you can indulge your confirmation bias that everyone who disagrees with you basic premises on race are paranoid hate mongers.
fuck off yourself weka. You see things that don’t exist (see comment just below where I have tried to simplify things).
The issue described was around previous comment on here that rubbished claims that it may be possible for pakeha to be seen as indigenous. Michael King provided some further ballast. But you seem to think that it is a Trojan horse for all sorts of other matters.
Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions – if that were actually true then so fucking what? Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they don’t even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.
“Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they donât even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.”
THAT IS YOU!
If you just accepted it then an actual discussion could be had because the true parameters would be set – meanwhile you continue to dance on the hotplate – aren’t your feet getting fucken hot by now – FFS be honest at least with yourself and the mirror – you are not fooling anyone else.
“Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions â if that were actually true then so fucking what? ”
Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions. Who is a bigot and why? If you can’t answer that then it’s all hot air and diversion.
eg you just said I’m seeing things that aren’t there. I don’t know what you are referring to, because my comment contained a number of points. You’ve had two comments to say what you are referring to, but you’ve chosen not to. It wouldn’t be that hard to be specific, so I can only assume you either have poor communication skills and don’t know what I mean, or you have another agenda. Each time this happens, you leave other people in the position of either guessing what you mean (and then you get all defensive), or just not responding (in which case you get to say shit without being called on it). It’s starting to look like quie a sophisticated means of tr0lling.
“Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions”
If you look closely weka you will see that both the original post of mine and the rehash were framed entirely by a question to posters about King’s intentions with those words. A question. In both. Not an assertion.
Probably most have had a guts-full of the topic by now, but for those who want to proceed on the basis of an actual quote to refer to, here is one to be going on with:
“In that same year (1946) New Zealand still possessed a Department of ‘Native’ Affairs, whose function it was to assist the country’s first indigenous people and, by organising the development, lease and sale of their land, contribute to what almost all New Zealanders believed were the ‘best race relations in the world’.” (p.413 Ch25 The Penguin History Of New Zealand 2003)
For what it’s worth I’m with B12 on this. It’s a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most “indigenous” people these days avoid this distraction by using the term “first peoples” ??
Thanks Clockie, looks like an editorial misjudgement rather than King making a statement about anything.
“For what itâs worth Iâm with B12 on this. Itâs a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most âindigenousâ people these days avoid this distraction by using the term âfirst peoplesâ ??”
On that basis Maori should be excluded from the UN’s Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Sorry, but we can’t just wipe out a whole bunch of things because some people think the word indigenous should only used in its biological sense (I assume that is the objection here).
I’d need to see the context, but the way it reads would suggest that either the Dept of Native Affairs or King believe that the indigenous people were first. Is that a term that the DNA would have used? If not and its King’s choice of words, it seems odd to use them when discussing something from the 1940s. If neither, it’s a redundancy and should have been edited.
Well I suspect they are King’s words and not the Dept of native Affairs from the 1940s. But bear in mind King was discussing this in the 1990s/2000s and not the 1940s, hence the use of his words “New Zealand’s first indigenous people”, when such terms were more widely understood.
And further, I know historians are very careful with their selection of words. It would be interesting to see if King has discussed this issue elsewhere.
No. it looks exactly like what you are doing – trying to erase the status of tangata whenua – the significance of that status is strongly linked to colonisation and its impact. So an attempt to claim indigeneity for Pakeha looks like an attempt to erase all that, or at least muddy the water.
If you are looking for something to name a Pakeha place of belonging, it is in the word “Pakeha”. It is in our forbears’ history. That history includes colonisation – for some of us serial colonisation – Ireland, etc.
Maybe, vto. But, it’s because you are putting a lot of stress on claiming the word “indigenous” for Pakeha NZers. Indigenous is a word in recent times that colonised people have claimed as part of their articulation of the legacy of colonisation.
Any attempt for people of European or other non-Maori lineage to claim indigenous status looks to me to be erasing the importance of the word “indigenous” to colonised people.
So, you may say it is “subjective”. To me it is a matter of logical deduction.
Why do you think it is so important to be able to claim indigenous status? Why not look for a word that is unique to Pakeha experience? Why not just stick with “Pakeha”?
Unfortunately this is what happens in these discussions with vto. Instead of addressing the issues you raise they will post something about what is wrong with you.
I have said before – it is part of a search of pakeha’s place here. Don’t know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that? It may well be that the current status of Maori is affected in that search. It may be completely unaffected. It may be that the term pakeha is enough, as you say. Other factors may arise in the future affecting the question.
One thing is sure – all such questions are met with heavy resistance. The current frame around this debate in NZ is stiff and unrelenting. It is like the frame has been built to not bend or allow for future flex. Such a frame will not bend of course – it will simply break, or be ignored….
The left should welcome these debates, as difficult as they are to conduct, because it is a defining issue for many people not of the left when it comes to voting patterns.
“One thing is sure â all such questions are met with heavy resistance.”
Complete and utter bullshit. Such questions from you are met with challenges to racism. If you can address those issues, then the topic itself will be discussed. Like I said, I’ve had this conversation with people and we never had to get bogged down in all this other shit.
A big hurdle for you now vto is to demonstrate that you are not aligning yourself with the likes of Doutre and Ansell, or if you are just be honest about it. It’s not hard to clarify and I really think these conversations would go better if you did. You’ve identified with Ansell’s views in the past, so it’s not unreasonable to think that that is where you are coming from (even if you aren’t as extreme as he is).
Get off the grass weka, I have never identified with Ansell or whoever the other prick is.
Let me try again from the start ………
“In the past I have suggested that indigenous people in NZ at some point may include pakeha. This has been dismissed out of hand by some commentators here, notably marty mars. In the weekend while reading Michael King’s recent history of NZ, it was noticed that he referred to Maori as NZ’s first indigenous people, implying that there are or may be in the future, further indigenous people. What say thee?”
Now heaven forbid that you can find anything else in there other than what I am trying to say, but give it a crack…..
weka, if you’re around – did you see this rehash? I have tried to lay it out as clearly as I can with the least number of possible misunderstandings, double entendres, alternative meanings, lost or hidden agendas or anything else that might get in the way of understanding what I was trying to say.
I have said before â it is part of a search of pakehaâs place here. Donât know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that?
No nothing wrong with looking for a sense of place. I do that myself in researching and learning about history. But in doing that I see no need to claim “indigeneity”. A sense of place is as much as in where we (and our forebears) have been – its in the journey as much as in the destination.
As I have said before “indigenous” and indigeneity” is now most commonly used as a way of articulating the experience of, and responding to colonisation. And, for the most simple explanation of this, it’s in the wikip definitions, taken from the UN definitions.
There is no single, universally accepted definition of the term “indigenous peoples”; however, the four most often invoked elements are:[7]
a priority in time
the voluntary perpetuation of cultural distinctiveness an experience of subjugation, marginalisation and dispossession
and self-identification
My bold.
Now a search for a sense of place can be done in many ways.
Why do you need to bring in the word “indigenous” to explain Pakeha sense of place.
And to me “place” is as much about cultural and historical place, and places traveled to and from, the travelling as much of the destination.
Why do you think the word “indigenous” should be one applied to Pakeha? Because, the impact of naming Pakeha as indigenous, will negate the aspect of Maori history and legacy that is in bold above – as I have said. The result will be a denial of colonisation and a muddying of the waters.
Karol, I was not saying it needs to be, I am investigating whether it could be. And there is no need for such a position to negate anything historic or muddy any waters.
If the result is that pakeha are seen as indigenous (less the recent colonisation aspect) then there will need to be some honesty in facing up to it. If not then so be it, on we go, honestly and squarely facing the future.
The focus on “indigenous” here is because it is one of manyplaces to conduct that search for place. That is all. There is no ulterior motive.
This investigation you are doing – have you read or referenced any MÄori writers? And if so, can you put those references here – I’d love to read them. And if not, why not?
Just another small point, the colonisation aspect continues to this day albeit under different guises or perhaps disguises is the better word.
vto, if Pakeha are to eventually becomes indigenous, it’s not something that can just be decided and applied. It would be a long process that would evolve over generations. It’s not a policy to be implemented. When you talk about it, it sounds like you think it is just something that can happen now if we want it to.
Personally, I believe that what we currently call Pakeha could become indigenous. I don’t see it happening any time soon because I see one of the core tenets of being indigenous is the relationship of the collective with the land. Pakeha have a long way to go before they will let themselves be part of the land as a culture. Which is a shame because we still have our indigenous roots with us from the UK and Europe and it could merge very well with what is already here (I don’t know how this works for non-Caucasians).
Having said that I don’t generally support discussion of Pakeha becoming indigenous with people who don’t fully accept the treaty and are who aren’t working towards decolonisation. For a start, it’s extremely rude to expect Maori to listen to such conversations when the dominating culture can’t even afford them basic protections form racism, let alone address grievances. Then there is the matter of the very large ignorance about Te Ao Maori by Pakeha. How can we have this conversation when we don’t even understand how Maori are indigenous?
I also find that the conversations tend to go badly amongst people who are not settled in their own Pakeha identities. I feel very comfortable in mine most of the time, even when I feel challenged by issues raised by Maori, but I don’t see most Pakeha being like that. Many Pakeha get thrown by the issues raised by Maori and then seek to redefine themselves in relation to that. That is understandable, but it is something we need to get past.
I also agree with Karol, why do we even need to have this conversation at this time? I know who I am, I know about my place in the world, and my relationship to tangata whenua is always developing and doesn’t undermine my sense of self. So I don’t understand the need to talk about us becoming indigenous in the context of how that will redefine Maori. When you say that Maori may be redefined I smell a kiore.
I would also be interested to know who from Maoridom you have been reading. But who in general you are reading if you’ve never come across the name Martin Doutre. If you’re not reading the likes of him, it may help clear the air here for you to link to what you are reading (or talking with).
As an aside, here are the links to the last argy bargy, where you referenced something said by Ansell.
I’m willing to accept your word if you say that you don’t support Ansell’s premises, but I’d like to see you refuting them when they come up in these discussions.
weka, just seen this comment here. Thanks for the feedback.
I see this, as I say, as something that is about a search for place. It is not a need, it is a curiousity. Well in many ways it is a need – a need for a people recently displaced or tossed out or seeking escape from persecution or oppression to find their feet again. To feel comfortable that their home is their home. I think that is lacking in some ways today. Pakeha don’t feel fully accepted here at times I think. Pakeha still get told to ‘go home’ sometimes.
Our own whanau (the majority ‘wing’) arrived with a full blown culture in place. One fully indigenous to its own previous land. That culture and that community has since been added to by other peoples and subjected to the vagaries of a new raw nation at the end of the world already occupied by another full blown people. It has taken time for pakeha to find their feet again.
It is not something which is decided on by vote of course. It is most definitely something that develops over time. In my opinion that is happening though. It is also a question (pakeha’s place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is ‘our’ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.
…. Some hastily penned further thoughts requiring enhancement and sharpening …….
“It is also a question (pakehaâs place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is âourâ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.”
So nice you are allowing yourself all that vto, almost brings tears to my eyes. If you read some of the comments from some above you will see that it is actually easy to have a sense of place here, a sense of belonging and a sense of peace within your heart about who you are and the home you live in – but that can’t happen when you ignore MÄori and their place in and on this land. It is about working together not replacing – it is about respect and allowing, it is about acceptance and truth. No doubt your research and journey will continue, as it must, until you get one of the basics sorted – the answers are right in front of you if you choose to open your eyes.
I’m sorry this is hard for you vto. I appreciate your latest comment, there is a lot there, complexity, and I don’t feel I can do justice to a reply tonight (been a challenging day today). I think what you have written is worth exploring and is something I’d like to respond to at another time. When you write about things more personally like this it is easier to see what the issues actually are. Thanks.
I have also been curious about a sense of place. I’ve read a lot of research and analysis of it, usually in the realm of “new geography” – an approach to geography that developed in the late 20th century. Basically understanding place is more than just about where a section of society/community/ethnic group has lived.
And there’s ways of understanding one’s place in the world, without trying to ignore the history of racial difference – a human construct with material impacts on lives, where some are dominant and others marginalised.
Some new geographers deal with “race” and place, without erasing the history of racial oppression and marginalisation. It means understanding the historical legacy of Pakeha in colonising Aotearoa.
Some in other countries look at understanding whiteness. RRichard Dyer’s “White” is a classic – about the way whiteness is both dominant and ignored, or rendered invisible.
I have particularly liked the work of Nigel Thrift on place and geography, which also includes the various ways people’s sense of place is influenced by class and other social positions.
And agree with marty mars: thinking about one’s place in the world can’t be done without thinking about others and their place and the relationships between us all.
I do believe that Pakeha NZers are different from Europeans….one only needs to go overseas to realise this. …And I also believe that Pakeha who have been here for generations have very deep feelings for the land and do have the right to a special sort of standing in New Zealand…..From what I can remember Michael King wrote a lot of Maori history and then when Maori wanted to write their own history and told him to go away he was very hurt…..so Michael King went in search of his own Pakeha identity. “Being Pakeha Now” could have been the title of his book.
I personally know of NZers with absolutely no Maori blood who are imbued with Maori culture and understanding and live alongside Maori ….so much so you would almost think they were a Maori in a Pakeha skin ( maybe they have been reincarnated.. ha ha)…
Also I once met a Maori with long blond hair and blue eyes at university who had a Maori name and said he was Maori…when I thought he was joking he spoke to me in Maori and told me his Mother was Dutch and his Father a Maori….
And this is the case of many NZers. You would be hard pushed to find a “pure” genetic Maori .Also many Pakeha whose families have lived in NZ for generations (eg ancestry British whalers who married Maori women) have some Maori blood…..
I also know of Maori who look Maori but you would think they had the mind set of a European Capitalist ( ha ha)
To complicate this even further some new immigrants adopt everything in NZ culture -, Maori language , culture , tramping , mountaineering , fishing , rugby , sport and beer drinking with such an enthusiasm that they are almost more Maori or Pakeha than the indigenous NZers.!!!!…All to the good … I guess in the end what is important is respect.
We all bring subjectivity to any issue. I try toown mine, vto, partly in the language I use. It’s actually part of examining something objectively and rationally, by making the subjective an explicit object of scrutiny.
All I see in your comments is disavowal of your own subjectivity under claims of total objectivity.
I’ve spent a lot of my life learning about colonisation and its impacts – read widely on it (and written on it as part of courses). And I’ve also spent a lot of my time reading “sub texts” – underlying meanings. Part of such readings includes identifying what is not said – always an important indicator.
Yes well North, if you read closely you will notice that Karol’s statement there was her own assumption and nothing to do with my question around King’s reference.
But mustn’t let such realities interfere with our own biases and assumptions eh.
Go somewhere quiet and talk to the land …again and again…. it will give you the answers you seek…King did this at the end of his book “Being Pakeha Now” ….This same land has talked to farmers, gardeners, hunters, sailors, mountaineers , trampers, artists and poets…..in the end it is the land that tells you whether you belong and are indigenous. ….it requires silence and reverence.
Chooky, don’t you worry about that I do heaps of it. It is inferred at my comment above at 7.18. I spend more time alone and on in the land that probably 99% of people. Alone, remote, nothing but land sea sky….. It is possibly one of the reasons this subject is excessively raised by me.
@vto OK ….well and good….Well I don’t see the point in arguing about it…..
….The issue really is whether one lives in harmony with the land and cherishes it and derives spiritual sustenance from it….this is the acid test as to whether one is indigenous or not …
…..Or whether one is one of the ‘NEW VULGARIANS’….an exploiter and
de-sacrilizer of the land , an over- populater , a barbarian speculator , a dirty polluter…whose God is materialism and consumerism and profit….and to HELL with the natural environment.
I don’t like Mike Williams as a ‘Spokesperson For Labour’. This morning he put a size 20 foot in his mouth by commenting on policy on housing purchase dampening with negative comments because it will have an immediate increase effect before Labour can be elected in 2014.
Then on top of bad mouthing positive efforts to help this complex difficult problem, felt worldwide, he then increases the fault by referring to Chinese speculators. First that sounds anti-Asian, second he has not referred to the stats on this which show definite peaks for certain western countries, and third he continues his white-anting of the left. Get him out of the media, he can be assessed as 80/20 in his value to the left, with the 80 being against.
Further to my comment above already I have heard John Bank’s whiny little voice castigating the comment about Chinese as if it had been spoken by the Labour leader. Get Mike Williams off Radionz – deny his right to say anything for the left, publicly disagree with him, present him as a turncoat. And do it now. He is bad news for Labour.
And of course on political comment this a.m. Mike Williams hasn’t much to say about reporting on defence force activity and trying to claim everything as being ‘subversive’. He has said something against the surveillance state. Franks is frankly speaking just himself. You know what to expect from him.
Great. Mike Williams makes judgments on Labour’s housing policy based on his own experiences in his area of town – eg being gazumped by an overseas buyer when trying to buy a home, price of rents in his area, etc.
I tried a while ago RoseT. Unfortunately to no avail. It’s been “from the Right [substitute Mike W, Jose P, etc], and from the Right [substitute Mathew H, Steven F, etc]” for quite some time now.
Mike Williams is increasingly using the “I’m in agreement with you [Mathew, Steven]” kaka.
Maybe spending too much time with Paul Henry or fawning over his friendship with Holmes.
. “There’s an avenue for him [Mr Humayun] to go to the police if the guy refused to pay the fare. But in terms of racial abuse, the threshold is very high.”
Susan Devoy. The friend in court of the rednecks. He sounds determined to stop racial abusers getting convicted. Dies she have a clue what her job brief is?
The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1
The U$ was and is where the implementation of Neoliberalism started. It is the garbage ideology that Yankey continues to follow. What is the result? A once great Nation because of the New deal is now on the point of collapse economically and socially with an immense privatised prison gulag, a corrupt finacial class in bed with a corrupt government, a corporate fascist state in reality and yet our crazy politicos still buy into the American Nightmare, including NSA style spying on kiwis who have contrary political opinions and activists. Why is the U$ so influential? Mainly because it has a huge military presence which we gratefully hide behind to put off China becoming the regional leader in the Pacific and to help us if Asia’s huge numbers decide to invade us.
The American Nightmare Yankey is pushing us to with stripping minimal income rights from the poorest Kiwis and further privatisation:
“The United States of… Class War, Inequality, and Poverty
New survey data shows perilous state of US economy and suffering of a majority underclass”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/28-1
“It’s time that America comes to understand that many of the nation’s biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position.”
“There is no class war. The 99% is in complete and abject submission to the 1% through the phony (D) vs. (R) bullshit paradigm. The working class has been corralled for shearing by the Democratic Party, which is simply a flavor of the Plutocracy Party which runs the United States.
Obama and most of the Democrats are merely reflections of this reality. The fact that the Plutocracy could get Americans to overcome their racism in the election of an African American Plutocracy Candidate is a testament to the success of the (D) vs. (R) propaganda meme.
The working class cannot fight back until it is able to have a voice – and giving it a voice is the thing that the Plutocrats fear most: Hence, billions are spent maintaining the absurd Kabuki illusion that there are two parties in the United States.
It is time to wake up and reject the false D/R bullshit and cast off the self-fulfilling fear that only the Plutocracy Party’s candidates are “electable”.
There will be no change in the status quo until the Democratic Party – the primary tool of the Plutocracy to keep the working class in line – is dis-empowered and left bereft of its national power.”
Is the Wizard of Oz just a shyster in a cloud of green smoke – is he an Aussie is he, is he, Is he an Aussie is he eh? (Old comedy song) http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
Radio nz this a.m.
Oz- Kiwis falling through the cracks in Australia (â16â˛â39âłâ)
09:30 With Maree O’Halloran – the official spokesperson for the National Welfare
Rights Network (NWRN) and the Director of Sydney’s Welfare Rights Centre. Duncan Sandilands – Founder of the Fair Go 4 All campaign.
and
Concept of operationshttp://www.fairgo4all.com/concept/
Further http://www.fairgo4all.com/phil-goff-continues/
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888229
Auckland-born student Diana Drysdale became a military cadet at 13, and has only ever wanted to be in the airforce.
But the 15-year-old, who lives near Brisbane, will not be able to fulfil that dream in her adopted home of Australia because her family will never qualify as residents….
The Australian law change was designed to stop backdoor migration from the Pacific Islands and Hong Kong Chinese, who gained New Zealand residency to settle in Australia. Mrs Drysdale believed that the effect it had on military recruitment was unintentional and undesirable.
“The military recruitment people here say they can’t believe it either. They get applications every week from Kiwis wanting to join. It is crazy.”
Mr Sandilands, 53, served as a territorial soldier for seven years. His frustration with being excluded from the ADF was deepened by his family’s rich Australian history – his great-grandfather was Lord Mayor of Melbourne and his grandfather fought with Australian troops at Gallipoli.
(It is surprising that the strongest claim we have for having equal rights in Australia and being treated with the respect of an allied neighbouring country with diplomatic and economic treaties and as we extend most of the rights to Oz residents, is through wanting to serve in their armed forces. Life sure is queer.)
I’ve often wondered when a NZ gubbamint of whatever flavour is going to ask the Australians when they intend putting the NZ back in ANZAC. At the moment it’s only pulled out on ANZAC day mornings.
The last tune-ty, John Key was too busy sucking up to Joolya and looking for foto-ops so he can reflect on all those hoi pear people in his scrap book after he fucks off into the Hawaiian wilderness.
Tim
And it has been shown from journalists queries on Anzac Day that many young people don’t know that it stands for the combined forces of our two countries. It’s just a word that they don’t connect with NZ at all.
Prime Minister John Key, speaking to ONE News deputy political editor Jessica Mutch in South Korea, says heâs is prepared to compromise with NZ First leader Winston Peters to get further support for his GCSB Bill in Parliament.
âI wouldnât rule that out. What Iâve said is that thereâll be the SOP process, so a Supplementary Order Paper. So when the bill comes back to Parliament, itâll have its second reading. Then what happens from there is the committee stage. At the committee stage, we already know a list of things that Peter Dunne will introduce. Now, in a theoretical world, if NZ First or any other political party – letâs take NZ First – came along and said, âWe will support the legislation if you make these changes,â and they were acceptable to the government, there is always that window of opportunity to make that change,â Mr Key says.
Mr Key told the Q+A programme that his office had approached Mr Peters on numerous occasions, âoffering to sit down with me, the officials, in writing. Weâve put all of those sorts of requests there,â but when asked if the lack of response meant it was unlikely the two could work something out, Key says: ânever say neverâ.
i am pretty sure that i have seen Winston Peters on my TV directly saying that the Slippery little Shyster has not contacted NZFirst on any changes that party would want in exchange for supporting that legislation,
If that is the case, Slippery’s latest is simply Him using the media, and i should put an emphasis on the word ‘using’, to be the Slippery little Shyster we all know Him to be…
I wonder whether NatKey are courting Peters for opposite reasons than they are presenting: In order to discourage people to vote for NZF?
He might be an option against National; and therefore if people are making that choice against voting for NZF and find out there is a chance Peters would team up with National; then perhaps less support, under 5% returned and bingo! Kingmaker no more. Back to Act & co
Glad you ‘got’ what I was wondering, because I see I made an error in my comment, which makes it a little hard to understand! (The second time I wrote ‘NZF’, it should have read ‘National’).
They really are fucking around with the nation’s psyche, our values and our democracy. ~ Well said
Leopard, i will take the Slippery little Shysters new found ‘trust’ in Winston Peters and NZFirst on face value, that face value being that even with the ‘Hairdo’ and the ‘Crim’ one small % of vote loss on the 2011 election result and the Shyster will be Slipping right on out of here,
Add to that no Maori Party in the next Parliament,(all gone-burger), and where have the Rats got left to run,
The only possible way i can see that National and it’s head used car salesman can Govern after November 2014 is with the help of NZFirst,(if they can get 5% of the vote)…
In other words, I am advocating for a moral case for science and innovation funding. It is the same argument that is made for funding culture and the arts although a little weaker as there is little that is uniquely Australian about science and innovation (although the astronomers and marine biologists make great counter-cases).
Science and innovation are good for society and thus we should do it. Forget the financials, society is about more than just making a profit.
This is interesting.
Radionz on Windows on the World which started at 8.20 pm and I don’t know how long it goes has something to say to us. If you can’t hear it on Radionz and I think they don’t have audio rights then you can I think get it by going direct to BBC.
They are talking about Kenya where there is 40% unemployment. Yet there is a vital economy developing. As ours becomes more moribund and the government finds new ways of stripping the poor and poorish of tax while the fat cats put theirs on Cloud Nine or somewhere, this might help communities to avoid going bankrupt as in USA.
A firm in Kenya, and there are Kenyan, Chinese, Connecticut and Danish nationals interviewed also, has developed a way of making payments or accessing money through an ordinary mobile phone. It seems that you buy a credit at one of their offices which is like charging your cellphone. Then you have virtual money wherever you go and that cuts out theft. If you are caught short at a remote location I think they said that you can get a small loan immediately. They have found the system works well.
This may be necessary for this country if the banks are going to screw us. These fancy-pancy new aids to nil balances from these super sensitive money-fly cards are apparently being foisted on us. The Kenyan idea would be a good alternative to having to carry lots of cash if they are going to reform the eftpos and credit card systems against our best interests.
This type of vitality might indicate that areas like this are worth shifting to, as NZ appears to have reached the downward slope of the bell curve and is determined to keep going forward, in that downward direction. Australia is not attractive under their present divisive policies, Oz on one side and us on the other. Might be worth while learning Swahili!
A listing of 26 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 28, 2024 thru Sat, May 4, 2024. Story of the week "It’s straight out of Big Tobacco’s playbook. In fact, research by John Cook and his colleagues ...
Yesterday I received come lovely feedback following my Star Wars themed newsletter. A few people mentioned they’d enjoyed reading the personal part at the beginning.I often begin newsletters with some memories, or general thoughts, before commencing the main topic. This hopefully sets the mood and provides some context in which ...
April 30 was going to be the day we’d be calling Mum from London to wish her a happy birthday. Then it became the day we would be going to St. Paul's at Evensong to remember her. The aim of the cathedral builders was to find a way to make their ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – Can’t remember the last book by a Kiwi author you read? Think the NZ government should spend less on the arts in favor of helping the homeless? If so, as far as Newsroom is concerned, you probably deserve to be called a cultural ignoramus ...
Eric Crampton writes – Grudges are bad. Better to move on. But it can be fun to keep a couple of really trivial ones, so you’re not tempted to have other ones. For example, because of the rootkit fiasco of 2005, no Sony products in our household. ...
A new report warns an estimated third of the adult population have unmet need for health care.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāHere’s the six key things I learned about Aotaroa’s political economy this week around housing, climate and poverty:Politics - Three opinion polls confirmed support for PM Christopher Luxon ...
Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech:Â AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
Is the economy in another long stagnation? If so, why?This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be ...
The annual list of who's been bribing our politicians is out, and journalists will no doubt be poring over it to find the juiciest and dirtiest bribes. The government's fast-track invite list is likely to be a particular focus, and we already know of one company on the list which ...
In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This weekâs announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House â but itâs not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand:Â The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasuryâs forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
Winston Peters’ comments about former Australian foreign minister look set to be an ongoing headache for both him and Luxon. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts and , along with regular guests on Gaza and ...
These puppet strings don't pull themselvesYou're thinking thoughts from someone elseHow much time do you think you have?Are you prepared for what comes next?The debating chamber can be a trying place for an opposition MP. What with the person in charge, the speaker, typically being an MP from the governing ...
The land around Lyme Regis, where Meryl Streep once stood, in a hood, on the Cobb, is falling into the sea.MerylThe land around Lyme Regis, around the Cobb that made it rich, has always been falling slowly but surely into the sea. Read more ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters was bound to win headlines when he set out his thinking about AUKUS in his speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. The headlines became bigger when â during an interview on RNZâs Morning Report today – he criticised ...
The Post reports on how the government is refusing to release its advice on its corrupt Muldoonist fast-track law, instead using the "soon to be publicly available" refusal ground to hide it until after select committee submissions on the bill have closed. Fast-track Minister Chris Bishop's excuse? âIt's not ...
As pressure on it grows, the livestock industry’s approach to the transition to Net Zero is increasingly being compared to that of fossil fuel interests. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / Getty ImagesTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above ...
The New Zealand Herald reports – Stats NZ has offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all of its workers as a way to give staff some control over their âfutureâ amidst widespread job losses in the public sector. In an update to staff this morning, seen by the Herald, Statistics New Zealand ...
On Werewolf/Scoop, I usually do two long form political columns a week. From now on, there will be an extra column each week about music and movies. But first, some late-breaking political events:The rise in unemployment numbers for the March quarter was bigger than expected â and especially sharp ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: TVNZ says it is dealing with about 50 formal complaints over its coverage of the latest 1News-Verian political poll, with some viewers â as well as the Prime Minister and a former senior Labour MP â critical of the tone of the 6pm report. ...
Muriel Newman writes – When Meridian Energy was seeking resource consents for a West Coast hydro dam proposal in 2010, local Maori âstrenuouslyâ objected, claiming their mana was inextricably linked to âtheirâ river and could be damaged. After receiving a financial payment from the company, however, the Ngai Tahu ...
Alwyn Poole writes – âAn SEP,â he said, âis something that we canât see, or donât see, or our brain doesnât let us see, because we think that itâs somebody elseâs problem. Thatâs what SEP means. Somebody Elseâs Problem. The brain just edits it out, itâs like a ...
Our trust in our political institutions is fast eroding, according to a Maxim Institute discussion paper, Shaky Foundations: Why our democracy needs trust. The paper â released today – raises concerns about declining trust in New Zealand’s political institutions and democratic processes, and the role that the overuse of Parliamentary urgency ...
This article was prepared for publication yesterday. More ministerial announcements have been posted on the government’s official website since it was written. We will report on these later today ….  Buzz from the Beehive There we were, thinking the environment is in trouble, when along came Jones. Shane Jones. ...
New Zealand now has the fourth most depressed construction sector in the world behind China, Qatar and Hong Kong. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 8:46am on Thursday, May 2:The Lead: ...
Hi,I am just going to state something very obvious: American police are fucking crazy.That was a photo gracing the New York Times this morning, showing New York City police “entering Columbia University last night after receiving a request from the school.”Apparently in America, protesting the deaths of tens of thousands ...
Winston Petersâ much anticipated foreign policy speech last night was a work of two halves. Much of it was a standard âboilerplateâ Foreign Ministry overview of the state of the world. There was some hardening up of rhetoric with talk of âbenignâ becoming âmalignâ and old truths giving way to ...
Graham Adams assesses the fallout of the Cass Review â The press release last Thursday from the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls didnât make the mainstream news in New Zealand but it really should have. The startling title of Reem Alsalemâs statement â âImplementation of âCass ...
This open-for-business, under-new-management cliché-pockmarked government of Christopher Luxon is not the thing of beauty he imagines it to be. It is not the powerful expression of the will of the people that he asserts it to be. It is not a soaring eagle, it is a malodorous vulture. This newest poll should make ...
The latest labour market statistics, showing a rise in unemployment. There are now 134,000 unemployed - 14,000 more than when the National government took office. Which is I guess what happens when the Reserve Bank causes a recession in an effort to Keep Wages Low. The previous government saw a ...
Three opinion polls have been released in the last two days, all showing that the new government is failing to hold their popular support. The usual honeymoon experienced during the first year of a first term government is entirely absent. The political mood is still gloomy and discontented, mainly due ...
National's Finance Minister once met a poor person.A scornful interview with National's finance guru who knows next to nothing about economics or people.There might have been something a bit familiar if that was the headline I’d gone with today. It would of course have been in tribute to the article ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – Throughout the pandemic, the new Vice-Chancellor-of-Otago-University-on-$629,000 per annum-Can-you-believe-it-and-Former-Finance-Minister Grant Robertson repeated the mantra over and over that he saved “lives and livelihoods”.As we update how this claim is faring over the course of time, the facts are increasingly speaking differently. NZ ...
Chris Trotter writes – ITâS A COMMONPLACEÂ of political speeches, especially those delivered in acknowledgement of electoral victory: âWeâll govern for all New Zealanders.â On the face of it, the pledge is a strange one. Why would any political leader govern in ways that advantaged the huge ...
 Bryce Edwards writes – The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill ...
TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 10:06am on Wednesday, May 1:The Lead: Business confidence fell across the board in April, falling in some areas to levels last seen during the lockdowns because of a collapse in ...
Over the past 36 hours, Christopher Luxon has been dong his best to portray the centre-rightâs plummeting poll numbers as a mark of virtue. Allegedly, the negative verdicts are the result of hard economic times, and of a government bravely set out on a perilous rescue mission from which not ...
Auckland Transport have started rolling out new HOP card readers around the network and over the next three months, all of them on buses, at train stations and ferry wharves will be replaced. The change itself is not that remarkable, with the new readers looking similar to what is already ...
Completed reads for April: The Difference Engine, by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling Carnival of Saints, by George Herman The Snow Spider, by Jenny Nimmo Emlyn’s Moon, by Jenny Nimmo The Chestnut Soldier, by Jenny Nimmo Death Comes As the End, by Agatha Christie Lord of the Flies, by ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Have a story to share about St Paul’s, but today just picturesPopular novels written at this desk by a young man who managed to bootstrap himself out of father’s imprisonment and his own young life in a workhouse Read more ...
The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill English, Simon Bridges, Steven Joyce, Roger Sowry, ...
Newsroom has a story today about National's (fortunately failed) effort to disestablish the newly-created Inspector-General of Defence. The creation of this agency was the key recommendation of the Inquiry into Operation Burnham, and a vital means of restoring credibility and social licence to an agency which had been caught lying ...
Holding On To The Present:The moment a political movement arises that attacks the whole idea of social progress, and announces its intention to wind back the hands of Historyâs clock, then democracy, along with its unwritten rules, is in mortal danger.ITâS A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in ...
Stuck In The Middle With You:As Christopher Luxon feels the hot breath of Actâs and NZ Firstâs extremists on the back of his neck and, as he reckons with the damage their policies are already inflicting upon a country heâs described as âfragileâ, is there not some merit in reaching out ...
The unpopular coalition government is currently rushing to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. The clause is Oranga Tamariki's Treaty clause, and was inserted after its systematic stealing of MÄori children became a public scandal and resulted in physical resistance to further abductions. The clause created clear obligations ...
Buzz  from the Beehive The governmentâs official website â which Point of Order monitors daily â not for the first time has nothing much to say today about political happenings that are grabbing media headlines. It makes no mention of the latest 1News-Verian poll, for example. This shows National down ...
It Takes A Train To Cry:Surely, there is nothing lonelier in all this world than the long wail of a distant steam locomotive on a cold Winterâs night.AS A CHILD, I would lie awake in my grandfatherâs house and listen to the traffic. The big wooden house was only a ...
Packing A Punch: The election of the present government, including in its ranks politicians dedicated to reasserting the rights of the legislature in shaping and determining the future of MÄori and Pakeha in New Zealand, should have alerted the judiciary â including its anomalous appendage, the Waitangi Tribunal â that its ...
Dead Woman Walking: New Zealandâs media industry had been moving steadily towards disaster for all the years Melissa Lee had been Nationalâs media and communications policy spokesperson, and yet, when the crisis finally broke, on her watch, she had nothing intelligent to offer. Christopher Luxon is a patient man - but heâs not ...
Chris Trotter writes –Â New Zealand politics is remarkably easy-going: dangerously so, one might even say. With the notable exception of John Keyâs flat ruling-out of the NZ First Party in 2008, all parties capable of clearing MMPâs five-percent threshold, or winning one or more electorate seats, tend ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is ...
Luxon will no doubt put a brave face on it, but there is no escaping the pressure this latest poll will put on him and the government. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political ...
This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler In the wake of any unusual weather event, someone inevitably asks, “Did climate change cause this?” In the most literal sense, that answer is almost always no. Climate change is never the sole cause of hurricanes, heat waves, droughts, or ...
Something odd happened yesterday, and I’d love to know if there’s more to it. If there was something which preempted what happened, or if it was simply a throwaway line in response to a journalist.Yesterday David Seymour was asked at a press conference what the process would be if the ...
Hi,From time to time, I want to bring Webworm into the real world. We did it last year with the Jurassic Park event in New Zealand — which was a lot of fun!And so on Saturday May 11th, in Los Angeles, I am hosting a lil’ Webworm pop-up! I’ve been ...
Education Minister Erica Standford yesterday unveiled a fundamental reform of the way our school pupils are taught. She would not exactly say so, but she is all but dismantling the so-called “inquiry” “feel good” method of teaching, which has ruled in our classrooms since a major review of the New ...
Exactly where are we seriously going with this government and its policies? That is, apart from following what may as well be a Truss-Lite approach on the purported economic “plan“, and Victorian-era regression when it comes to social policy.Oh it’ll work this time of course, we’re basically assured, “the ...
Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as âits largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliffâ. ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Many criticisms are being made of the Governmentâs Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. Itâs important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its ...
TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:10am on Monday, April 29:Scoop: The children's ward at Rotorua Hospital will be missing a third of its beds as winter hits because Te Whatu Ora halted an upgrade partway through to ...
span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the countryâs leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that âcorruptâ the nationâs ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealandâs growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesnât know or care about the frontline cuts sheâs making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. Â ...
Todayâs Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and itâs only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. âThis is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. âThe government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicineâ, said Ayesha Verrall âThis is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoonâs interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour childrenâs spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te PÄti MÄori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veteransâ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veteransâ affairs spokesperson Greg OâConnor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxonâs management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonightâs court decision to overturn the summons of the Childrenâs Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about MÄori without evidence, says Te PÄti MÄori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. âThe judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last yearâs severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labourâs environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our countryâs most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Governmentâs Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a âget out of jail freeâ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te PÄti MÄori Justice Spokesperson, TÄkuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, MÄori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealandâs good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National governmentâs lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te PÄti MÄori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. âThis act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.â Said Te PÄti MÄori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Councilâs Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today.  "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Councilâs Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today.  Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. âThese reforms are long overdue. New Zealandâs insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. âThree years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. âBeing able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canadaâs refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ânext moveâ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Childrenâs Commissioner. âThe Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says.    âThe coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. âOur Governmentâs thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening â  Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealandâs foreign policy, weâd like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. âCreating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northlandâs marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. âThis is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the countryâs total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. âThe beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ĺ-RÄkau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mĹ Ĺ-RÄkau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ĺ-RÄkau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Governmentâs plan to supercharge New Zealandâs EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four â and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Governmentâs plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. âI have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People â Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Governmentâs plan to restore law and order. âSpeaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealandâs human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). âNew Zealandâs goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. âIâm putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure âone stop shopâ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. âThe NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
WhÄnau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. âGiving these whÄnau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Governmentâs goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave OâSullivan (OBE). âOur sympathies are with the OâSullivan family with the sad news of Dave OâSullivanâs recent passing,â Mr Peters says. âHis contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmacâs largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff.  âAccess to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwisâ lives. Weâve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,â says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. âWe know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,â Dr Reti says. âEvery day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikoheâs new $14.7 million sports complex. âThe completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,â Mr Jones says. âThis facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Petersâ engagements in TĂźrkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges.  âReturning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,â Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen â good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood â a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - Â It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Â Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Â Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. âOur Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealandâs hydrogen future, with the opening of the countryâs first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. âI want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
The Government Communications Security Bureau denies hosting a foreign spying capability flagged by the watchdog, differentiating it from the system recently criticised. ...
RNZ News A group of academic staff at New Zealandâs largest university have expressed concern at the administrationâs move to block a protest encampment that was planned to take place on campus calling for support for the rights of Palestinians. This week, the University of Auckland warned that while it ...
Genterwocky After a hard days marching, Sir Doocey calls in at the Village Tavern For a pint of ale and a pork pie. The grim villagers stare at him. âDo not be travelling on the forest road,â warns a crusty old beak. âAnd why is that, antique peasant?â Grins Sir ...
Political conferences after a party returns to power are usually a chance for some healthy, even unhealthy backslapping. Yet National Party president Sylvia Woodâs address to its mainland representatives on Saturday hardly contained the unalloyed delight that one might have expected following Nationalâs escape from the wilderness of opposition. Yes, ...
Comment: Almost half the world is voting in national elections this year and artificial intelligence is the elephant in the room. There are genuine fears AI-generated or AI-edited deepfakes will potentially manipulate election outcomes not just in the US and UK, but critically in countries such as India. For that ...
Ahead of the reality franchiseâs return to New Zealand, allow us to introduce the eight brides and grooms. Chuck on a veil and tie back your man bun, because itâs time to say âI doâ to a new season of Married at First Sight NZ. The reality TV âsocial experimentâ ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Norton, Professor in the Practice of Higher Education Policy, Australian National University Every year on June 1, student debt in Australia is indexed to inflation. In 2023, high inflation pushed the indexation rate to 7.1%, the highest since 1990. This ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Changes in the May 14 budget will cut the student debt of more than three million people, wiping more than $3 billion from what people owe. The government will cap the HELP indexation rate ...
Asia Pacific Report The prosecutorâs office at the International Criminal Court (ICC) has appealed for an end to what it calls intimidation of its staff, saying such threats could constitute an offence against the âadministration of justiceâ by the worldâs permanent war crimes court. The Hague-based office of ICC Prosecutor ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk A womenâs union in New Caledonia has staged a sit-in protest this week to support senior Kanak indigenous journalist ThĂŠrèse Waia, who works for public broadcaster Nouvelle-CalĂŠdonie la Première, after a smear attack by critics. The peaceful demonstration was held on ...
New Zealand Food Safety is monitoring overseas recalls of Indian packaged spice products manufactured by MDH and Everest due to concerns over a cancer-causing pesticide. ...
By Stephen Wright and Stefan Armbruster of BenarNews Fijiâs ranking in a global press freedom index has jumped into the top tier of countries with free or mostly free media after its government last year repealed a draconian law that threatened journalists with prison for doing their jobs. Fijiâs improvement ...
We might be in Invercargill but all anyone can talk about is Gore. Specifically, Salford Street. Thatâs where three-year-old Lachlan Jones lived, south of the centre of town, between the A&P Showgrounds and the Mataura River. Roughly 1.2 km away from the single level home he lived in with his ...
MONDAY I lined up the latest round of civil servants from city hall against the wall, and signalled for the firing squad to drop their rifles. I stepped up onto a wooden crate to look at the office workers in the eye. But that didnât feel right, so I found ...
Keen hiker and second-year MSc student Liam Hewson wears two hats when heâs in the great outdoors. âThe scientist in me appreciates nature and goes, âOh, thereâs that thing and thereâs another thing,â but then the tramper and the outdoorsy person in me thinks, âCool bush.ââ Born and bred in ...
After a long and illustrious career as a goal kicker, Dan Carterâs favourite way to unwind is⌠kicking goals. Why canât he get enough of it? And what itâs like to watch him do it for an hour straight? A semicircle of people wielding cameras and phones has formed in ...
Dame Susan Devoy takes us through her life in television, including late night ER debriefs, her proudest CTI moment and the show she watches in secret. Quite aside from her four world champion squash titles, Dame Susan Devoy will likely go down in history as one of the best Celebrity ...
Hera Lindsay Bird reveals the best places in Ĺtepoti to score more for your apocalypse-prep book hoard.Sometimes I get the feeling Iâve been killed in a car crash, and this second half of my life is just the brain unspooling itself, like one of those episodes of a hospital ...
ThreeNowâs new murder mystery series takes us on a dark, damp journey into the Australian wilderness.This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. High Country is ThreeNowâs new Australian eight-part crime drama, set in a remote part of the Victorian highlands. It tells ...
Introducing a new way to read The Spinoff every weekend. After nearly 10 years of being an online magazine, weâre finally embracing the weekend liftout. Despite our best efforts to convince you otherwise, writers and editors at The Spinoff donât work weekend. It is through the sheer power of technology ...
Tip one: let yourself be nurtured by this big old man. Tip two: donât ask him to adopt you. So, youâve arrived at your first session with a new therapist. He tells you to make yourself comfortable and you opt for the tweed armchair, hoping it makes you look like ...
I didnât know books could open you back up; that there were books that stayed with you, where reading was like a chemical event. I knew nothing.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.Not too long ago, I was listening to the American ...
Former Olympic swimmer James Magnussen has already started training for the Enhanced games, though says he won’t start taking performance enhancing substances until about nine months out from the competition. The Australian world champion was the first athlete to be announced by Enhanced, but he says the organisation has had ...
Everyone thinks he’s dead. Every day they expect his body to be washed up along the coast. Most likely up Karitane way, the way the tide’s running. But nobody’ll be too surprised if his body’s never found. Even in death he wouldn’t have wished for such attention. He would have ...
Council members voted 21 to 4 in favour of Ahluwalia returning to the Laucala campus following a much-awaited meeting in Vanuatu this week. It comes as USP and its two unions â the Association of the University of the South Pacific Staff (AUSPS) and the Administration and Support Staff Union ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicola Henry, Professor & Australian Research Council Future Fellow, Social and Global Studies Centre, RMIT University Shutterstock Following an emergency meeting of the National Cabinet this week, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced a raft of measures to tackle the problem ...
Analysis - A poll showing the opposition is more popular than the government raises questions, politicians go through their 'trial by pay rise' and a Green MP loses her cool in the debating chamber. ...
The entire stretch of Tokomaru Bay on the East Coast will be subject to a joint customary marine title for two hapĹŤ, and extending up to four miles out to sea. A High Court judge has found the two groups, who during the case settled a dispute over boundaries for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Hall, Lecturer, Media & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University A longstanding feud between TikTok and Universal Music Group seems to have finally reached an end, with both parties signing a deal that will see Universal-backed music returned to the social media ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Siobhan O’Dean, Postdoctoral Research Associate, The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use, University of Sydney After several highly publicised alleged murders of women in Australia, the Albanese government this week pledged more than A$925 million over five years ...
Political parties have now fully disclosed the donations they received last year - with National getting more than double the cash of any other party. ...
A Pacific regionalism expert has called out New Zealand's Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters for withholding information from the public on AUKUS military pact. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard de Grijs, Professor of Astrophysics, Macquarie University Bruno Scramgnon/Pexels All systems are âgoâ for tonightâs launch of Chinaâs next step in a carefully planned lunar exploration program. Placed on top of a powerful Long March 5 rocket, the Chang’e 6 ...
National returned a massive donation the day after a Newsroom story linked the donors to a property being investigated for operating unlawfully as a migrant workersâ hostel. The partyâs 2023 donation filings, released on Friday, show it returned a $200,000 donation from Buen Holdings on August 23. That was the ...
Pacific Media Watch New Zealand has slumped to an unprecedented 19th place in the annual Reporters Without Borders World Press Freedom Index survey released today on World Press Freedom Day â May 3. This was a drop of six places from 13th last year when it slipped out of its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Joshua Black, Political Historian and Administrator Officer, Australian Historical Association, Australian National University Australia has had its fair share of public record-keeping controversies in recent years. Some have been mere farce, as in the case of two formerly government-owned filing cabinets (containing ...
Heavenly Culture, World Peace, Restoration of Light (HWPL), a United Nations-affiliated organization dedicated to fostering peace through civilian-led initiatives, has issued a statement in response to the escalating conflict between Israel and Iran. ...
A poem by Tessa Keenan, from AUP New Poets 10. MÄtou These days we are a photograph; one of a farm strewn with cows that used to be bright harakeke or swamp. The kids point at it and say the sun sits behind a smudge (left by someone at Christmas); ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Booksâ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan (Faber & Faber, $25)The masterful Irish writer ...
Marriage and civil union statistics record the number of marriages and civil unions registered in New Zealand each year, and divorce statistics record the number of divorces granted in New Zealand each year. Key facts Marriages and civil unions In ...
Marriage and civil union statistics record the number of marriages and civil unions registered in New Zealand each year, and divorce statistics record the number of divorces granted in New Zealand each year. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lennon Y.C. Chang, Associate Professor of Cyber Risk and Policy, Deakin University Taiwan stands out as a beacon of democracy, innovation and resilience in an increasingly autocratic region. But this is under growing threat. In recent years, China has used a variety ...
In this excerpt from her new memoir, Dame Susan Devoy remembers her turn as star contestant on the 2022 season of Celebrity Treasure Island. The most anxious time of every day was pre-elimination, when you knew this could be your final day on the show. I felt such contradictory emotions, ...
A week that began in triumph ended in an all-too-familiar disaster for the Green Party. Duncan Greive asks if thereâs something in the mission that breaks its best and brightest. A long, strange week for the Green party began with a fantastic poll result. On one level this is hardly ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Vanuatuâs former prime minister and opposition MP Ishmael Kalsakau has stepped down â just two days after he confirmed he was the rightful opposition leader. Kalsakau, MP for Port Vila, confirmed to ABCâs Pacific Beat, and the Vanuatu Daily Post on Thursday that he ...
Whatâs to blame for the coalitionâs choppy start? Six months in, and the mojo meter is in the doldrums. A new poll would put National out of power and sees its leader, Chris Luxon, sliding in popularity. How much is it about policy, how much coalition management and a perception ...
The striking report goes far beyond the proposed repeal of the Oranga Tamariki Actâs Treaty of Waitangi provision, and its impact should be felt far beyond the unique circumstances of the claim it addresses. Earlier this week, the Waitangi Tribunal released an interim report on the governmentâs proposed repeal of ...
The world has been experiencing a productivity slowdown, from which New Zealand has not been exempt. COVID-19 temporarily boosted labour productivity, but more recently, productivity has retreated. The overall trend since 2007 has been one of slow productivity ...
Whatâs more wasteful than spending $315k on syrup and machine maintenance? Trying to drum up a controversy about it.Cast your mind back to the pre-pandemic idylls of 2019. A âratâ was a disgusting rodent and not a self-administered plague test; the sixth Labour government was in power; and the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Fitz-Gibbon, Professor of Social Sciences, Faculty of Arts, Monash University, Monash University Ken stocker/Shutterstock In the wake of numerous killings of women allegedly by menâs violence in 2024, thousands of Australians have joined rallies across the country to demand action ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Henry Cutler, Professor and Director, Macquarie University Centre for the Health Economy, Macquarie University Oleg Ivanov IL/Shutterstock Waiting times for public hospital elective surgery have been in the news ahead of this yearâs federal budget. Thatâs the type of non-emergency surgery ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Konstantine Panegyres, McKenzie Postdoctoral Fellow, Historical and Philosophical Studies, The University of Melbourne Amna Artist/Shutterstock One of the earliest descriptions of someone with cancer comes from the fourth century BC. Satyrus, tyrant of the city of Heracleia on the Black Sea, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Rose, Professor of Sustainable Future Transport, University of Sydney LanaElcova/Shutterstock Electric vehicles are often seen as the panacea to cutting emissions â and air pollution â from transport. Is this view correct? Yes â but only once uptake accelerates. Despite the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Giselle Natassia Woodley, Researcher and Phd Candidate, Edith Cowan University There is widespread agreement Australia needs to do better when it comes to gender-based violence. Anger and frustration at the numbers of women being killed saw national rallies over the weekend and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Graham, Lecturer in Economics, University of Sydney Mark and Anna Photography/Shutterstock As home ownership moves further out of reach for many Australians, ârentvestingâ is being touted as a lifesaver. Rentvesting is the practice of renting one property to live ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sukhmani Khorana, Associate Professor, Faculty of Arts, Design and Architecture, UNSW Sydney Netflix The new season of Heartbreak High is garnering mixed reviews. Critics are writing about the racy story lines, comparing it to other coming-of-age series about teenage relationships and ...
Bob Carr intends to launch legal action against Winston Peters and Julie Anne Genter is facing a second allegation of bullying. Both sucked the air out of an announcement on education, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoffâs morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in ...
Was listening to Shearer on Morning Report. Just realised that my jaw has been sore as I have been clenching my teeth in trepidation that he might trip over his tongue. Whew. He hasn’t been THAT bad. Some good points made.
Especially the comments about vested interests in the real estate industry making a lot of money out of foreign sales.
Best form of defence is attack. Question the motivation of these opponents.
Just heard a bit of Him defending Labour’s latest move on housing, interestingly someone here was having a nit-pick about Dave (the incumbent),calling the policy ‘his’ the other day,and, that’s the only point where he stumbled having to self edit meant that this came out as ”my/our policy”,
Dave,(the incumbent),has come along in leaps and bounds in being able to deliver the message without the aaah ummm extended silence that punctuated His earlier efforts,
He still tho has one major problem in that those that didn’t get their Dave,(not the incumbent),into the top spot still wont accept Him as leader with a large full stop…
The closer we get to the election, the less indifference Cunliffe supporters will show, I reckon. Whatever their feelings about the leadership, I’m confidant the prospect of knocking off Key will be enough for most Labour supporters to put the party, and NZ, ahead of their antipathy toward Shearer.
Let me correct you TRP.
There was no antipathy towards Shearer to begin with. Just a belief that Cunliffe was the better candidate. The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.
Knocking off Key has always been the number one priority. There’s no reason why Shearer can’t do it, and I know of no-one who won’t be cheering him on. If he has the nous to stop listening to Cunliffe’s detractors and places Cunliffe back on the front bench where he belongs then all the better…
“Captain Mumblefuck” was a term of endearment? Good to know.
TV debates my good sir, the bloody election will be lost on the 2%-3% swing around the TV debates. Better be no mumbling then.
And then it will be too late to get rid of him if he fucks it up. And then we have 3 more years of a bunch of sell it all megalomaniacs, better he stands down now, in deference to someone who can at least string a sentence together, without stumbling ad mumbling all over the place. And his preoccupation with the word ‘I’. Someone needs to tell him that there is NO ‘I’ in TEAM. And he NEEDS a team to win and at the moment that is the biggest missing link in the Labour Party at present. So no team no win!
But there are two “I”s in “politics”. And three in “Prime Minister” đ
But without a team he’s just another also ran. Who will lose his shirt, and us our assets, there is too much at stake to have a NON team player in charge!
+1. Absolutely. Someone seems to have told him he should say “I” to show he’s in charge, or something. It needs to be “we”. It’s a team that makes policy, not Shearer, it’ll be a team that gets elected and implements policy.
No need to compete with Key by saying “I”. It’s fine for National to continue to show they’re all told what to do in every area of policy by a dodgy money trader.
I know of no Labour Party member who used that term. Even so, it was ultra mild compared to what some were calling Cunliffe. You do have a very selective memory sometimes McFlock.
Well, here’s the list of folk who’ve used it here. Not all of them are tory concern trools.
Can’t tell from that list who are Labour Party members though. Might be better to search “mumblefuck” +colonial viper etc.
forgot that the search engine here can’t handle multiple words well.
and then there’s trying to remember the people who’ve [plausibly] claimed to be Labour members.
Quite happy to say that I have not (IIRC) and will not call Shearer by that nickname.
He should wear it as a badge of honour, reclaim the language, that sort of thing đ
Oh, I’ve used the term.
But only – and I really must stress this point – only because he’s a mumbling useless fuck.
gods darn it, you really kill me.
are you a labour member?
No, just someone who wants to vote for them. Silly dream, I know.
You missed me. And I have, until this time, voted labour for the last 40 years. But not this time. Why should I vote for someone who does not give a rats arse about us, who is only interested in being the leader, even if the fucking shooting box goes down the crapper. And that’s what Mumblefucks legacy will be! The man who sank democracy in NZ, for a pay packet, and a fucking title. Way to go Shearer!
Ah, thanks.
So much for Anne’s “I know of no Labour Party member who used that term”.
So much for this bullshit about nice people versus intractable careerists who would bring labour down to keep their jobs for three more years. Maybe if you guys can get over yourselves, then you could help the Left get somewhere rather than feeding bullshit to jonolists.
Just checking. Are you referring to the caucus ABCs as well?
To be fair, there’s a huge difference between Anne saying she didn’t know of something happening, and saying she knows something didn’t happen.
She claimed the former, you’re holding her to the latter.
Awwww CV, just because they’re tossers (if they even exist as a distinct group that is as entrenched as the acronym implies), you wanna be a tosser too?
Now what did you learn in kindy about that approach when you wanted to play with truckie and another kid wouldn’t let you?
Felix: not really. I’m pointing out she was wrong, that her perception was off. The cunliffe-crowd have given much more than they’ve got in dirty behaviour, if comments I’ve seen here are anything to go by. And if comments here aren’t anything to go by, then that speaks for itself.
Shearer is a dud =/= Cunliffe supporter. You’ve never really grasped that, McF.
So you were excepting the ABC’s from your own wise advice about moving the left ahead and not feeding the jonolists, McFlock?
idiot.
I didn’t coin it until he proved himself to be an incoherent, stumbling fool whenever asked difficult questions like “what is your policy?”
you’re not a labour member, by any chance?
Come on QoT, he’s only been in the job 18 months. Give him another six, eh.
Anne, I thought Shearer not sprinting to the front of the hall at the GCSB meeting to grab the mic, instead allowing Cunliffe to speak and applauding what he said was an indication that he trusts Cunliffe, so maybe the front bench isn’t out of the question.
You sure that the fact that he was boxed in and couldn’t reach the front of the room or the mike didn’t have something to do with it?
It does look good TRP. And I’m hoping it’s going to happen soon because we need Cunliffe there.
Btw, there’s no way he could sprint to the front of that hall. It was jam packed like sardines. No-one was going to sprint anywhere.
TRP I would’ve thought it was a good sign too if only Shearer didn’t look so nervous and frightened by it.
Hear, hear, Anne. I ventured into David Cunliffe’s office today to pick up some flyers to be delivered re the Power N Z meeting this Saturday at Kelston and walked out feeling generally despondent. I keep hoping that DC will be back on the front bench very soon.
“The antipathy resided with the ABC Club who chose to be malevolent towards Cunliffe and anyone who had supported him.”
Well, yeah. The clue is kinda in the acronym…
Hey, cut it. You silly pawn.
Stop, for goodness sake, framing it as “anti Shearer = pro Cunliffe”.
You are eating the lines of the TV3 news-creators and Robertson.
All Labour supporters want a fairer society and to urgently roll back the inequities driven by Key & Co.
How fucking dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that. My attitude towards the leadership is driven by that one cannon.
Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying … Let us not change anything.
That bullshit has us heading to an election defeat and three more years of Key and a very unfair society.
Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.
And I think you meant “canon”.
Yeah, because typos or incorrect spelling are really important right now.
“Because most of your hard work here seems to be spent on abusing Labour rather than National.”
But bad12 didn’t refer to the standard, so it’s reasonable to assume he meant all Cunliffe supporters and all Labour people who have criticised Shearer.
There are very good reasons why the dominant narrative here has been anti-Shearer. I think you are one of the few people who doesn’t get it.
Eeeek, how did i get into the conversation this far into the debate Dave V Dave, umm no my previous comment didn’t mention the Standard, but, the basis of my comment when it comes to the acceptance of the incumbent Dave is solely based around what i have read here at the Standard,
In the real world i don’t tend to have conversations with Labour supporters about who they support as leader, as i am not a Labour voter nor member such inquistions would possibly be seen rightly or wrongly as stirring…
But when B referred to “all Labour supporters”, it is reasonable to assume that those who comment here are a subset of that, no? Including B? Unless of course B is just another commentator overly concerned about the leadership of a party they don’t even vote for.
I get that there are good reasons to not be particularly impressed or awed by Shearer as leader, but no, I don’t get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.
If you think that the leadership is not a pivotal issue and that Labour is still on course for victory, of course the complaining will seem unnecessary and extremist.
Rhino referencing a woodchipper was extreme. The extreme end of behaviour here, but I still don’t get it (even in jest). I don’t get how people can call a simple internal equality policy political suicide, especially this far out from the election. Nor do I get why people complain that not mentioning state housing policy while announcing other policy is a sign of closeted neoliberalism.
Criticism, that I can understand. But jumping at ideological shadows like some sort of lame “ghost hunting” reality TV show? Nah, I don’t get it.
“I donât get why people are so anti to the extremes that some people seem to be.”
Pretty simple. Many see the problem within Labour (the ABCs and Shearer) as preventing any shift away from the neoliberal clusterfuck are are in. This time period will be remember as the second time in my generation that Labour betrayed the country. It’s not as obvious as the 80s, but we’re in a holding pattern now waiting for the ABCs to retire or die. We can’t afford that wait.
Bigger picture McFlock. It’s not about Shearer, it’s about why Shearer is leader at this point in time and why nothing is being done about it.
Putting aside the vexed question of just WHO should be sitting in the leaders chair for the moment can i ask you Weka if you firmly believe that, just to be topical, Labour would have a different housing policy than the one announced???,
Would David Cunliffe have a different ‘flagship policy’ and if so can you cite such a policy difference???
The leadership of Labour where i am concerned is one of who can sell Labour to the electorate the best,
As a supporter of those way further left than Labour i have to realize that to make any gains which betters my level of society, my class if we want to be ugly but totally realistic, Labour will be the party of Government that such gains if they can be made must be chiseled off of,
Much of the denigration of the current Labour leader seems to me to be more propelled by those who want the party to be something that it just is not,
How different in issues of ‘bread and butter’ would Labour be if it swapped one Dave for the other Dave, i would suggest that there would be very little difference as the middle class have grown Labour have grown into being middle class with it and are thus intent on formulating policy that definitely benefits that middle class,
Labour as a % of the party vote are then quite naturally a party in the 30,s as far as % goes, the Green Party, Mana Party, and, Maori Party hold the 15% of further left than Labour support that MMP allows the freedom of choice…
I agree with much of that bad, and like you am fairly pragmatic in that I’m not expecting Labour to be moving radically left any time soon. So do I think that under Cunliffe Labour would be making different policy? Not particularly, but I guess there would be more room to move left (as opposed to the very thin space now). My point was more that it looks to me like the people in power in caucus would rather be in power in opposition than allow change to happen. That’s the betrayal. They’ll let NACT have another 3 years while they’re playing stupid factional power games internally. Don’t know how the membership can stand it.
Bigger picture, okay:
Labour policy is pretty good so far.
Ideal government will involve Labour + greens + mana.
Greens are likely to get 10â15% of the vote.
Therefore labour needs 35â40% of the vote, so anything mana gets above that is gravy.
Currently, 35% for labour in a campaign is easily doable. 40% would be a big stretch of probability, but not so much in a year’s time. Things change.
So, what’s the big deal? Why do people get so worked up, calling commenters “pawns” or tools of TPTB. I don’t get it.
10 + 35 = 45
Yeah, let’s just trundle along, tralalala, not to worry, she’ll be right.
I suppose the big deal is that as bad as things are now, another 3 years of NACT will do irrepairable damage to that country. Exponentially more than they have done now and than they did in the 90s.
Someone said a while back that it was ok for the left to limp over the finish line to become the next govt. What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to risk losing the next election, given what is at stake. You above post makes it sound like, oh it would be nice to win, but it’s not really that bad if we don’t. For me it’s much more critical than that.
But there is no move that would guarantee a lab/grn government. After a certain level, you just have to admit that some things are out of our control.
Would [insert here] be a better speaker than shearer during the campaign? Possibly/probably. Would that person also have some quality or problem that will be done to death by the jonolists? Yep. Would they make bad moves, as well as good? Yep. Will these be blown out of proportion by the supporters of failed candidates as well as jonolists? Probably. Would garner/gower still foment the “imminent ruction within caucus” line? Yep. [Insert here] might be able to improve the polls, but then again a new leader has new targets to hit.
So yeah, Shearer’s not perfect, but nor will his replacement be. It’s not a case of “she’ll be right”, it’s a case of recognising that point where “constructive criticism” becomes “cheap invented bullshit for jono, otherwise pointless”.
McFlock, of all the things you don’t understand, this is the biggie. It’s not that Shearer isn’t perfect. It’s that he is really bad at his job. See the difference? Even if you don’t think that he is, surely you can understand that people that do think this are really frustrated (given what is at stake) and might be more angry about the situation than you.
Good to see Phil Twyford posting in the Housing Policy thread. Liked this
http://thestandard.org.nz/labours-new-housing-policy-shearer-on-qa/#comment-670807
Even if he were really bad at his job (which I don’t think he is), no, I don’t get how people can’t understand that they’re getting so worked up that (and I seriously believe this) they’re hampering any chance of a left wing government much more than they think Shearer’s performance is.
This isn’t a traffic accident or similar emergency, where we’re all trying to think through a massive adrenaline rush that hampers our perceptions and if we don’t act this second people die. We are all sitting in front of some manner of VDU with an input interface of some kind. I seriously don’t get how people fall into a state of hearing a competent performance on the radio and the main thrust of their comment is how they were waiting to be dismayed. That can’t be doing their blood pressure any good, and it’s not Shearer’s fault. It’s their own.
Some people really need to take some time off the political news and gossip, and just chillax for a while.
The problems with that, McF, are
1. We don’t hear consistent competent performances from Shearer.
2. Even if we did, which we don’t, “competent” isn’t going to win an election.
“Competent” is for managing a Burger King franchise without totally fucking it up.
Ummmm. For the most part Burger King pays it’s shift managers just enough to get the level of competence their organisation truly deserves…
Detail: in NZ they aren’t franchises…
felix:
1 is down to your perception, and 2 is a baseless assertion that merely serves to justify your opinion. Basically, 2 means that in order to have someone in the top job next election, Labour need someone who is outstanding in all facets as leader. There is nobody in caucus like that, so you might as well just have a smoke, enjoy the view and put the blindfold on when the time comes.
Outstanding in just 3 or 4 out of 10 facets with mere competence in the others would be fine.
Yeah it’s also only a matter perception that the sky is blue and water is wet.
He sucks at the job, McF. That’s observable, predictable, and repeatable, and everyone seems to know it but you.
(I joke of course. I don’t believe for a moment that you don’t know it. I think I can I think I can)
“Over the past year you, TRP, have pretended to be open minded on your support for one leader over another: yet invariably saying ⌠Let us not change anything.”
Not so, Boadicea.
My preffered leader is Cunliffe, though I’m leaning toward Little. However, I have consistently said that policy is more important. And I have also consistently said that the leadership is a done deal. Shearer’s it for better or worse.
Cunliffe was badly let down by the naivety of his supporters at the last conference. His chances of taking over ended there and then.
“How dare you accuse hard working and extremely patient Labour members of ever putting anything ahead of that.”
Whether you remember or not, many commenters here have said things like ‘not voting Labour till they change the leader’. What I said is that I belieive that atitude will diminish as we get closer to the election. I hope I’m right.
I have never called David Shearer names, and my anxiety about Labour under his leadership has always been based on the fear that the party has been hijacked again and is in the process of being neutered. If that fear still persists by the time of the election I will neither vote Labour nor assist Labour – I will instead vote either Green or Mana. Politicians are there to represent us. They are not there to be proxy rulers on behalf of people who do not give a damn about us.
+1
As opposed to a concerted media effort by his colleagues to attack and discredit him using lines around a non-existant coup, even before Conference had finished?
Yep, that’s how naivete works, CV. The failure to understand the implications or to guess the unintended consequences is what scuppered DC’s chances.
+10
[lprent: Santi is now on a permanent ban for violating his ban. ]
Scuppered Labour’s chances, more like.
I Have called Shearer names and I stand by what I said. Shearer is a ME, ME, Politician he uses I instead of WE ALL the time.
CunLiffe on the other Hand has the ability to explain the most complicated shit in layman’s terms so ALL voters can understand him. Key is shit scared of Cunliffe. And not only that He would wipe the floor with Key in a debate. God help us with Captain Stutterbum in the debates!
+1
That’s a galling assumption to presume the loyalty of all us volunteers, no matter what. That’s precisely the attitude that has seen members walk away over the last decade – or haven’t you noticed?
Every Labour Party member has a duty to hold the leader to account. And to support them when they perform. Indeed according to our constitution we now have the right. And so we do, including here. We invest volunteer time and expect results. Leader: deliver.
Instead, the Labour Party by every single measure is failing. Funding. Profile. Coherence. Membership. Media management. Polling. You can offload blame for that to Cunliffe loyalists all you want.
But in fact yours is the attitude that needs to change: blind loyalty – and you expect come election just press the political-guilt button again. The Labour Party is a walking hollow corpse, and those electrodes don’t work any more. With your expressed attitude, the best chance for Labour to do better is for you and people like you including caucus to look in the mirror and tell the truth.
Hear Hear! to that Ad.
I regard my vote for Labour’s 3rd term to have been partly due to “blind loyalty” and a vote for the least worst option at the time.
Not again. There are actually other options.
Thus far, I’m BEGINNING to see some good initiatives coming from Labour, and a SLIGHT improvement in Shearer’s performance, but UNTIL a few of them at least start to realise they don’t have some divine right to my vote, acknowledge more openly that the neo-liberal agenda has not worked and that they will at least explore alternatives – they’ll not get my vote again.
More than that, they sure as hell won’t get my membership or financial support again until they’ve established a decent sort of record.
Thanks, Ad and Tim for offering those words, which actually seem to confirm my point about the antipathy toward Shearer. Ad, it gives me heart to know that there are folks like you out there who can be persuaded to support Labour if the circumstances are right. For me, that’s policy. For some people, it’s leadership. I really hope that come election time, we’ll have the best of both and a better than even chance of changing NZ for the good..
BTW, if you’d read my comments down the years, you’d know it’s not blind loyalty that drives me (or, I suspect, anyone else). It’s a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, giving the lack of a mass supported socialist alternative. The LP is not within cooee of the kind of party I’d like to be in, but I keep trying in my own small way to move it to the left.
“Itâs a rational choice in a western democracy to support the social democratic party that is best placed to lead the next Government, …etc.”
TRP – we’re in agreement, except that my point is that there is now (almost) another alternative for that ‘mass’. What’s required is for Labour to step up: to demolish the little Hipkins hissy fits; to spark when required; to hold the bovver boys in check when it’s quite obviously counter-productive, and release them when its not; to publicly and vociferously denounce the Natz bullshit at each and every opportunity (without delay – given the 24hr spin cycle – and there have been plenty). I realise the opportunities are precious – given the state of the MSM and its predisposition – which makes that all the more important.
So far – in the scheme of things, there are better alternatives. I MIGHT (at a very very very small pinch – or should that be a large one) be persuaded to give Labour another chance. Given the record so far, and after almost a lifetime – it’s not likely in 2014.
99 to 1 – that could change – I.e. NOT Labour.
I don’t think I’m a masochist – or a martyr – right now, that’s what would be required to even consider it
I’ll accept Shearer as leader when he shows he can do the job. So far he hasn’t.
+1
Shearer has been unable to articulate the new housing policy clearing. For the last 18 months, his performances have been cringeworthy. There were those of us who were prepared to give him a chance, but with polling staying around 31%, there is no way that Shearer can lead Labour to victory.
A third term National Government simply cannot be an option.
The elephant in the room, the emperor’s new clothes.
Shearer Needs To Stand Down
Worth keeping an eye on this thread : http://johnquiggin.com/2013/07/28/oz-nz/ where Aussie economist John Quiggin is looking at the comparative performance of NZ/AUS performance post war.
http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/07/28/lenders-set-bank-of-cyprus-bail-in-at-475/
Only 47.5% this time around, phew, got away with that one didn’t they!
Got all those large pesky savers with over 100K on loan to the bank!
Would be interesting to see the stats on the accounts which were robbed!
Ah a standard morning.
Wellington getting rocked by a 5.x earthquakes and a cluster of 3.x.
Pete George using an evidence free approach to everything. Perhaps he should retrain as a jonolist? I posted that Jenny was wrong in saying Shearer said anything “angrily”. He didn’t. Having listened to the video Jenny referred to, she appears to have confused someone else intejecting with the words “not a review” with Shearer. And for the record, Pete, you really are a retarded fool if you think Jenny’s silly claims being repeated on TV3 wasn’t at the core of my post.
Jon getting spied on by the NZDF is disturbing. Particularly since it appears that the only reason for doing so is to prevent embarrassment. I have been known to have the odd beer with Jon. Offhand I cannot think of anyone less likely to want to cause soldiers harm. But he does seem tenacious about digging out dodgy shit. Definitely a journalist…
Time for coding..
The NZDF revelations are extremely disturbing. It reveals a distinct lack of understanding of democratic principles in the upper hierarchy. You can’t save democracy by undermining democracy, fellas.
Andrew Geddis covers it well.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/morale-was-deteriorating-and-it-was-all-yossarians-fault
Now we now how John Armstrong gets off – a pap piece on Simon Bridges.
To think that our politics must be reported in terms of applauding Bridges’ entirely unremarkable and boringly prosaic “elder gentleman” jibe, as though it were Churchillian.
Armstrong seems to be engaged in a wilful dumbing down. Why else right this shit as major stuff ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=10903899
It is becoming more apparent that between them the Heralds Fifth Column of commenters are producing pieces in that particular shoddy rag, working as a tag team in the vein of Labour must do this while pimping for support for the likes of National’s Bridges and the equally as awful Jamie Lee Ross, (who has something extremely ugly lurking just beyond His frontal lobe),
Sooner or later as the fashion dictates the Herald will hide it’s on-line edition behind a pay-wall which will be a joy as i wont be tempted to read their utter sh*t Fifth Column political jonolism anymore…
and then every now and then (well maybe 3 or four times a year) they premit Brian Gould to write a short piece, just so they can say….
balance
The Herald is rapidly becoming our very own Fox News.
They wont put up a pay wall, they couldn’t stand the loss of readers.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future… As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZ’s sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasn’t already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
As part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa. Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out “bigot” chant, “racist” chant, “hater” chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
A few days ago, apparent support for something like this position was tumbled on within the late historian Michael King’s book A Short History of NZ, written a decade or so ago. In it King refers to Maori as New Zealand’s first indigenous people. What would King mean by that? It implies more than one, obviously. It implies that there are or will be other indigenous people subsequent to Maori. I read around and around the particular piece to try to glean some more to help paint the picture but couldn’t locate much to assist… (no longer have the book so can’t reference but it was in a post-WWII chapter around what the govt was doing with the dept of native affairs I think)
Curiouser and curiouser….
‘Indigenous’, from it’s literal meaning would tend to suggest that none of us are, indigenous that is, none of us occurred here naturally as we all came from other places,
Maori with the literal translation that i have, ‘Normal’, would seem a better descriptive, your debate of course is around what a Pakeha academic has chosen to label Maori as, i doubt many Maori have or do use the term indigenous…
Your plan to get rid of the Treaty won’t work – others far more bright, well read and intelligent have tried and are trying. Why not try the honest approach and just put up your agenda instead of lurking around it – it’s pretty obvious anyway but being honest would at least give a true reference point to begin actual discussions – may I suggest a list would help.
Have to agree. Vto, yet again your comment skirts around the issues making them vague enough that it’s hard to know what your actual point is. So I’m guessing that you are referring to the people that believe various theories around pre-Maori settlers, but who unfortunately (a) don’t have any background/experience that lends their views credibility and (b) are often connected to white supremacist groups in NZ or internationally. Then you wonder why the term racist comes up so often.
btw, I’ve had discussions with people and read articles re Pakeha indigeneity that never reference the racist arguments of people like Ansell or Doutre. These conversations ask questions like what does it mean to be indigenous? What are the cultural and spiritual aspects that are associated with bein indigenous? What is the relationship between indigenous and the land? These conversations happen without any need to take anything away from Maori, and for the most part they aren’t based in Pakeha insecurity. Why are you not taking part in these conversations?
You might want to re-consider the circles you are moving in, and the kinds of material you are reading. I also hear Maori who talk with ambivalence about who was here first. If you don’t understand the reasons why they do that, or why they’re not going to engage in the debate you want, then again, you are talking to the wrong people. Until I see some attempt by you to engage with Maori on their own terms, I can only assume you are like other Pakeha that are interested in the things that support their ethnocentric view instead of being open to wider, sometimes contradictory perspectives.
Some background reading
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/11/dargavilles-media-should-honour-towns.html
http://books.scoop.co.nz/2008/11/18/no-to-nazi-pseudo-history-an-open-letter/ (connections between the pre-Maori settler theorists and white supremacists).
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/05/celtic-boulders-and-unbalanced.html
You are paranoid weka and see things that aren’t there. Why don’t you just answer the question put in the post instead?
What do you make of Michael King’s reference to maori being “the first indigenous people”? It is not a rocket science question.
From what I remember King believes that non-Maori can become indigenous, so when he refers to ‘first’ indigenous he is stating his belief that Maori were here ‘first’.
But I would have to see an actual quote, and in context. Maybe it’s actually an editing mistake.
What do you think he means?
Pretty much the exact same as you weka. Nothing more and nothing less. It is another piece of a very large picture about maori and pakeha place in these islands, that is all.
The reason it was posted is that the idea in King’s statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.
let the placing of the 1,000,000 piece jigsaw puzzle continue ………
“The reason it was posted is that the idea in Kingâs statement is something I have been ridiculed for expressing on here.”
[citation needed]
Anyway, I seem to remember the last time you started up on this, you referenced someone as supporting your argument, and that person turned out to be known racist and white supremacist John Ansell (and we only learned that because I searched for the audio, listened to it, and then reported back to the ts thread). So I don’t really trust you when you say you read something once. Your ability to misrepresent your argument is now well known. Am pretty sure that by the end of this round we will have demonstrated that Michael King didn’t say what you think he said, that you are misrepresenting his views, and that what you really believe is more along the lines of Doutre and co. I’m happy to be proved wrong, but you never say what you actually think, and then we find bits of the jigsaw hidden under the tablecloth or on the floor.
King as i point out above has mistakenly used the term ‘indigenous’, to be indigenous Maori or anyone else would have had to have been resident here when our little islands split off from where-ever they split off of,
So what is there to debate about King’s mistaken use of the English language…
Hi bad12, thanks for your comment there. I understand your point there but take this as being indigenous within the NZ context i.e. on the assumption that Maori are indigenous…….
Point taken VTO, but working off of an assumption that in its entirety is incorrect leaves you in danger of basing everything else upon that incorrect assumption thus reaching a wrong conclusion,
A far better description of Maori would be ‘first people’ which is entirely unambiguous, it is then easy to ‘see’ that such a first people had ‘property rights’ not just in the European sense but in far more ephemeral areas,
Obviously such property rights do not translate from the Maori into the English in their entirety which is why we still have Treaty issues,
Inherent in such issues is the Maori ”it is mine but it is not mine”, in English that term is totally ambiguous and a contradiction, for Maori hardly so…
“A far better description of Maori would be âfirst people'”
Only if you accept that Pakeha definitions trump Maori ones. If you deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous, then you exclude them from their relationship with other indigenous peoples in the world. And you make this about reductionist biological constructs instead of holitic ones. I don’t see how that helps matters.
Just as an aside – somewhere (and I’ll try and locate it from a uni history paper if I can), there is a U.N definition of the descriptor ‘Indigenous’ which not only suggests the concept of ‘first people’, but also those subjected to some sort of subsequent ‘oppression’ or adverse cultural influence (such as colonisation).
It might be a losing battle to locate however – the attic is knee deep in old notes and books and I no longer own the place.
…. ah! I note Karol’s comment below too
Here’s indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region,
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
LOLZ, i have never heard any Maori, those in the family or from elsewhere, use the term indigenous, that does not preclude that some might of course,
A bigger LOLZ is your contention that if i deny Maori the right to use the term indigenous i deny them something, along with your lead into that concerning Pakeha definitions trumping those of Maori,
My contention that ‘first people’ is a far better description of Maori when measured against ‘indigenous’ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of ‘first people’ is akin to the American Indian self description of ‘first nations people’,
If you asked my nieces and nephews whether or not they are indigenous i can assure you the reply would be one large HAH???,
Therein lies the disconnect, ‘indigenous’ is an entirely Pakeha concept, ask my lot instead how they come to ‘belong here’ and you will get a recitation of ‘whakapapa’ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Indigenous then can come no closer in comparison than the divide between Maori and Pakeha that has always exsisted…
Well, yes. Indigenous is a European term. And originally I think it was just applied to country of birth. But it is a term adopted by indenous people – maybe more politcal than in everyday language.
As I understand it “First Nation” – also a useful term – is one coined in Canada and applied to indigenous people there.
Googled “first people” – ah the confusion of language. It seems there’s a prior usage of the term,
But also it has been claimed by colonsied people, and on at least the website of the first Peoples World Wide, is linked with the term “indigenous”.
And they have a page defining indigenous people, thus:
bad12: ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Well, if someone asked where I belong, or where my place is, I’d go into the places my ancestors have been, and their cultural connections etc. Often it’s stuff I don’t find worth celebrating, but, it is what it is.
LOLZ, Karol, we have then come full circle in the debate from what i said in my first comment,
In Maori the closest i can come to the term ‘indigenous’ is in fact the word Maori for which i have a translation to mean ‘Normal’ and in terms of the definition of indigenous ”originating or occurring naturally in a country or region” would seem an adequate fit,
Scholars of the reo might of course be able to submit a far more definitive term of indigenous but Maori does it for me and ‘first people’ seems far more defining than indigenous for those who need some other form of descriptive other than Maori,
Lol, must be a slow day i don’t normally indulge in such wordly debates…
Hi bad,
Hereâs indigenous, occurring in a country or region naturally, at a squeeze Maori are indigenous in terms of region, originating in terms of recorded history from the Pacific region
To use such a definition tho would be to insinuate that all Pacific people are then indigenous to New Zealand,
That definition comes from biology. A different definition, with regards to people, has been in use for a long time. Sorry if you and your whanau haven’t come across that before, but it’s been used by Maori for ages, including internationally.
My contention that âfirst peopleâ is a far better description of Maori when measured against âindigenousâ in no way contends that Maori should never use indigenous, and my use of âfirst peopleâ is akin to the American Indian self description of âfirst nations peopleâ,
Except the racists use it to point out that Maori got here just a bit earlier than Pakeha and therefore don’t really have that much right to be treaty partners or call themselves tangata whenua or whatever.
Therein lies the disconnect, âindigenousâ is an entirely Pakeha concept,
Well by that argument, we can’t use the word ‘Maori’ to refer to people of Iwi decent.
ask my lot instead how they come to âbelong hereâ and you will get a recitation of âwhakapapaâ from the mountains to the sea, including the rivers and lakes along with the more ephemeral connection through different ancestors to various
Gods from Tane Mahuta to Tangaroa, which also may include the odd connection to a specific taniwha,
Ae, a fairly acceptable definition of indigenous imo.
Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?
You are playing with words.
“Why do you have a need to erase colonisation and its legacy, resulting in a continuing impact on the lives of the majority of Maori, by trying to claim equal arrival and settlement status?”
no such need
no such claim
Really Karol, that is entirely assumption and projection on your part. Why have you done that? Why don’t you just answer the actual question about King’s point?
We can’t answer the actual question abotu King’s point, because you haven’t posted King’s point. What you’ve done is presented a version of King’s point amongst a whole bunch of other points and it’s hard to know what the fuck you mean. I feel manipulated, by you. You are setting us up to garner support for your covert views, instead of just being honest about what you think. That’s why people now call bullshit on your posts about ethnicity straightaway.
ffs give it up. Everytime. Simple questions weka, simple questions. And now it has happened again – why do you obsess about the personal? Why is every question treated as some kind of pointer to some other agenda that I don’t have? You are like that other commenter above who never ever comments on the issue and only ever on the person who makes the comment.
I recall you saying a while ago that the ‘who’ of a comment is at least as important as the comment made. I would suggest that this feature of your thinking is bananas and is what is taking you down this path of paranoia. Try concentrating on the actual issues.
Nice sidestep.
Ok, actual issue. Did Michael King say ‘first indigenous’? No idea.
Where do we go from here?
Still have no idea why you even bought this up. Are you really asking if it’s possible for Pakeha to become indigenous?
edit, and you know what? If you don’t want to discuss the meta issues around race then DON’T BRING THEM UP IN YOUR FUCKING OPENING COMMENT.
Exactly, weka.
Are you really asking if itâs possible for Pakeha to become indigenous?
Exactly, and why is this even important?
“why is this even important?”
it’s not is it
Correct – it is not important or relevant to creating a sense of place for pÄkehÄ, unless to create a sense of place, that means reducing MÄori which is what you are trying to do. Many have found their place here by accepting MÄori and accepting what happened here and accepting the way the world is now – but not you vto, you continue to try and create division and anger by pushing your views out there as if they were somehow objective and devoid of your own personal baggage – which they aren’t. Your views are aligned with ansell and 1law4all and you diminish yourself by trying to pretend otherwise. I have no problem saying that MÄori are indigenous in all the vagaries of that word, because they fulfill the definition set out by others of what indigenous means.
These type of debates, fomented by you, always follow the same trajectory yet you cannot stop yourself can you? Why? They bolster your twisted view of the world that’s why, they reinforce your preconceived ideas and strengthen your bigotry by providing evidence in your own mind of why and what you already believe. You don’t discuss or debate in good faith – you just use the good arguments of others to help you continue to see the world through a distorted lens.
“Still have no idea why you even bought this up.”
There’s that paranoia and complication thing again. Try reading the first two sentences in the post.
And perhaps you could highlight which comments in my opening post were about any other race issue other than indigeneity origins rather than yelling swear words in my face.
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⌠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already. The point of indigeneity moves along a sliding time scale. It brings in new arrivals, it brings a first occupier, a subsequent occupier, several types it seems. This is seen in the history of most indigenous people around the globe.
Right there, you start muddying the waters. Because you fail to grasp the significance of the way tangata whenua were colonised.
<IAs part of that it has been suggested that pakeha will at some point be deemed indigenous, if they are not already. A little like the Afrikaner is regarded as indigenous to southern Africa.
Really? Citation needed? Because Africaner were major oppressors of the indigenous people of Africa.
And it still doesn’t answer the question why you want to claim “indigenous”‘ status, when it will largely work to blur historical memory about colonisation?
vto, if it’s not important to you, why do you keep raising issues around it?
PS: and why don’t you mention anything about colonisation in your opening comment?
First two sentences:
At times I post on things maori-pakeha. It is an interest in our land, peoples, archaeology, future⌠As part of that, posts have been made suggesting that the classification of Maori as NZâs sole indigenous people may well change in the near future, if it hasnât already.
All I can tell from that is this:
1. you post on things Maori-Pakeha from time to time
2. someone (we don’t know who) has suggested on ts that other-than-Maori will soon be designated indigenous (but we don’t know who, by who, or how).
What did you want to happen next?
Did you read the link I gave about Ani Mikaere’s view on Pakeha and being indigenous?
Meta issue (and manipulation set up):
Of course this postulation is met with the typical poorly thought out âbigotâ chant, âracistâ chant, âhaterâ chant by people who only poorly think things out. More fool them.
Perfect example weka. You see things that are not there.
Fuck off vto. That’s a classic example of you making an assertion about something but leaving it to the mind readers amongst us to know what you are talking about.
edit: Actually, doubly fuck off, because even when I do respond to the actual main issue you raise, when I take the trouble to do so, you simply ignore that and go for the surrounding meta argument. I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have no genuine interest in the topic, you simply raise the issue here so you can indulge your confirmation bias that everyone who disagrees with you basic premises on race are paranoid hate mongers.
fuck off yourself weka. You see things that don’t exist (see comment just below where I have tried to simplify things).
The issue described was around previous comment on here that rubbished claims that it may be possible for pakeha to be seen as indigenous. Michael King provided some further ballast. But you seem to think that it is a Trojan horse for all sorts of other matters.
Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions – if that were actually true then so fucking what? Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they don’t even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.
Freudian slip there vto
“Some people are very deceptive and hide their true colours. Sometimes they donât even realise they are bigots or racists or sexists or someotherists.”
THAT IS YOU!
If you just accepted it then an actual discussion could be had because the true parameters would be set – meanwhile you continue to dance on the hotplate – aren’t your feet getting fucken hot by now – FFS be honest at least with yourself and the mirror – you are not fooling anyone else.
“Further, your claim that I somehow ask tricky questions that expose commenters true positions â if that were actually true then so fucking what? ”
Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions. Who is a bigot and why? If you can’t answer that then it’s all hot air and diversion.
eg you just said I’m seeing things that aren’t there. I don’t know what you are referring to, because my comment contained a number of points. You’ve had two comments to say what you are referring to, but you’ve chosen not to. It wouldn’t be that hard to be specific, so I can only assume you either have poor communication skills and don’t know what I mean, or you have another agenda. Each time this happens, you leave other people in the position of either guessing what you mean (and then you get all defensive), or just not responding (in which case you get to say shit without being called on it). It’s starting to look like quie a sophisticated means of tr0lling.
“Except that you never do ANYTHING other than make assertions”
If you look closely weka you will see that both the original post of mine and the rehash were framed entirely by a question to posters about King’s intentions with those words. A question. In both. Not an assertion.
Probably most have had a guts-full of the topic by now, but for those who want to proceed on the basis of an actual quote to refer to, here is one to be going on with:
“In that same year (1946) New Zealand still possessed a Department of ‘Native’ Affairs, whose function it was to assist the country’s first indigenous people and, by organising the development, lease and sale of their land, contribute to what almost all New Zealanders believed were the ‘best race relations in the world’.” (p.413 Ch25 The Penguin History Of New Zealand 2003)
For what it’s worth I’m with B12 on this. It’s a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most “indigenous” people these days avoid this distraction by using the term “first peoples” ??
Agree clockie, I think most have had a gutsful too. And thanks for the quote, that was the one.
Thanks Clockie, looks like an editorial misjudgement rather than King making a statement about anything.
“For what itâs worth Iâm with B12 on this. Itâs a non-issue. Indigenous is the wrong word to use in this context and I thought most âindigenousâ people these days avoid this distraction by using the term âfirst peoplesâ ??”
On that basis Maori should be excluded from the UN’s Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Sorry, but we can’t just wipe out a whole bunch of things because some people think the word indigenous should only used in its biological sense (I assume that is the objection here).
editorial misjudgement? how so?
I’d need to see the context, but the way it reads would suggest that either the Dept of Native Affairs or King believe that the indigenous people were first. Is that a term that the DNA would have used? If not and its King’s choice of words, it seems odd to use them when discussing something from the 1940s. If neither, it’s a redundancy and should have been edited.
Well I suspect they are King’s words and not the Dept of native Affairs from the 1940s. But bear in mind King was discussing this in the 1990s/2000s and not the 1940s, hence the use of his words “New Zealand’s first indigenous people”, when such terms were more widely understood.
And further, I know historians are very careful with their selection of words. It would be interesting to see if King has discussed this issue elsewhere.
+1 to everything weka has said, and props to weka for having the fortitude to illuminate vto’s flamebaiting bullshit for newcomers.
nothing more could be expected from you qob, queen of bigots.
No. it looks exactly like what you are doing – trying to erase the status of tangata whenua – the significance of that status is strongly linked to colonisation and its impact. So an attempt to claim indigeneity for Pakeha looks like an attempt to erase all that, or at least muddy the water.
If you are looking for something to name a Pakeha place of belonging, it is in the word “Pakeha”. It is in our forbears’ history. That history includes colonisation – for some of us serial colonisation – Ireland, etc.
You see Karol “looks like….” is intensely subjective isn’t it. That is your problem – too subjective.
Please point out where I tried to do those things you charged me with in the original post above. For your own credibility of course.
karol
Now you know – your problem is that you are too subjective? Sigh.
Maybe, vto. But, it’s because you are putting a lot of stress on claiming the word “indigenous” for Pakeha NZers. Indigenous is a word in recent times that colonised people have claimed as part of their articulation of the legacy of colonisation.
Any attempt for people of European or other non-Maori lineage to claim indigenous status looks to me to be erasing the importance of the word “indigenous” to colonised people.
So, you may say it is “subjective”. To me it is a matter of logical deduction.
Why do you think it is so important to be able to claim indigenous status? Why not look for a word that is unique to Pakeha experience? Why not just stick with “Pakeha”?
Unfortunately this is what happens in these discussions with vto. Instead of addressing the issues you raise they will post something about what is wrong with you.
I have said before – it is part of a search of pakeha’s place here. Don’t know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that? It may well be that the current status of Maori is affected in that search. It may be completely unaffected. It may be that the term pakeha is enough, as you say. Other factors may arise in the future affecting the question.
One thing is sure – all such questions are met with heavy resistance. The current frame around this debate in NZ is stiff and unrelenting. It is like the frame has been built to not bend or allow for future flex. Such a frame will not bend of course – it will simply break, or be ignored….
The left should welcome these debates, as difficult as they are to conduct, because it is a defining issue for many people not of the left when it comes to voting patterns.
Communication communication communication
“the current status of Maori”
In what possible ways?
“One thing is sure â all such questions are met with heavy resistance.”
Complete and utter bullshit. Such questions from you are met with challenges to racism. If you can address those issues, then the topic itself will be discussed. Like I said, I’ve had this conversation with people and we never had to get bogged down in all this other shit.
A big hurdle for you now vto is to demonstrate that you are not aligning yourself with the likes of Doutre and Ansell, or if you are just be honest about it. It’s not hard to clarify and I really think these conversations would go better if you did. You’ve identified with Ansell’s views in the past, so it’s not unreasonable to think that that is where you are coming from (even if you aren’t as extreme as he is).
Get off the grass weka, I have never identified with Ansell or whoever the other prick is.
Let me try again from the start ………
“In the past I have suggested that indigenous people in NZ at some point may include pakeha. This has been dismissed out of hand by some commentators here, notably marty mars. In the weekend while reading Michael King’s recent history of NZ, it was noticed that he referred to Maori as NZ’s first indigenous people, implying that there are or may be in the future, further indigenous people. What say thee?”
Now heaven forbid that you can find anything else in there other than what I am trying to say, but give it a crack…..
weka, if you’re around – did you see this rehash? I have tried to lay it out as clearly as I can with the least number of possible misunderstandings, double entendres, alternative meanings, lost or hidden agendas or anything else that might get in the way of understanding what I was trying to say.
I have said before â it is part of a search of pakehaâs place here. Donât know where that search will end up.
Is there something wrong with that?
No nothing wrong with looking for a sense of place. I do that myself in researching and learning about history. But in doing that I see no need to claim “indigeneity”. A sense of place is as much as in where we (and our forebears) have been – its in the journey as much as in the destination.
As I have said before “indigenous” and indigeneity” is now most commonly used as a way of articulating the experience of, and responding to colonisation. And, for the most simple explanation of this, it’s in the wikip definitions, taken from the UN definitions.
My bold.
Now a search for a sense of place can be done in many ways.
Why do you need to bring in the word “indigenous” to explain Pakeha sense of place.
And to me “place” is as much about cultural and historical place, and places traveled to and from, the travelling as much of the destination.
Why do you think the word “indigenous” should be one applied to Pakeha? Because, the impact of naming Pakeha as indigenous, will negate the aspect of Maori history and legacy that is in bold above – as I have said. The result will be a denial of colonisation and a muddying of the waters.
Karol, I was not saying it needs to be, I am investigating whether it could be. And there is no need for such a position to negate anything historic or muddy any waters.
If the result is that pakeha are seen as indigenous (less the recent colonisation aspect) then there will need to be some honesty in facing up to it. If not then so be it, on we go, honestly and squarely facing the future.
The focus on “indigenous” here is because it is one of manyplaces to conduct that search for place. That is all. There is no ulterior motive.
This investigation you are doing – have you read or referenced any MÄori writers? And if so, can you put those references here – I’d love to read them. And if not, why not?
Just another small point, the colonisation aspect continues to this day albeit under different guises or perhaps disguises is the better word.
vto, if Pakeha are to eventually becomes indigenous, it’s not something that can just be decided and applied. It would be a long process that would evolve over generations. It’s not a policy to be implemented. When you talk about it, it sounds like you think it is just something that can happen now if we want it to.
Personally, I believe that what we currently call Pakeha could become indigenous. I don’t see it happening any time soon because I see one of the core tenets of being indigenous is the relationship of the collective with the land. Pakeha have a long way to go before they will let themselves be part of the land as a culture. Which is a shame because we still have our indigenous roots with us from the UK and Europe and it could merge very well with what is already here (I don’t know how this works for non-Caucasians).
Having said that I don’t generally support discussion of Pakeha becoming indigenous with people who don’t fully accept the treaty and are who aren’t working towards decolonisation. For a start, it’s extremely rude to expect Maori to listen to such conversations when the dominating culture can’t even afford them basic protections form racism, let alone address grievances. Then there is the matter of the very large ignorance about Te Ao Maori by Pakeha. How can we have this conversation when we don’t even understand how Maori are indigenous?
I also find that the conversations tend to go badly amongst people who are not settled in their own Pakeha identities. I feel very comfortable in mine most of the time, even when I feel challenged by issues raised by Maori, but I don’t see most Pakeha being like that. Many Pakeha get thrown by the issues raised by Maori and then seek to redefine themselves in relation to that. That is understandable, but it is something we need to get past.
I also agree with Karol, why do we even need to have this conversation at this time? I know who I am, I know about my place in the world, and my relationship to tangata whenua is always developing and doesn’t undermine my sense of self. So I don’t understand the need to talk about us becoming indigenous in the context of how that will redefine Maori. When you say that Maori may be redefined I smell a kiore.
I would also be interested to know who from Maoridom you have been reading. But who in general you are reading if you’ve never come across the name Martin Doutre. If you’re not reading the likes of him, it may help clear the air here for you to link to what you are reading (or talking with).
As an aside, here are the links to the last argy bargy, where you referenced something said by Ansell.
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633462
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17052013/#comment-634309
I’m willing to accept your word if you say that you don’t support Ansell’s premises, but I’d like to see you refuting them when they come up in these discussions.
weka, just seen this comment here. Thanks for the feedback.
I see this, as I say, as something that is about a search for place. It is not a need, it is a curiousity. Well in many ways it is a need – a need for a people recently displaced or tossed out or seeking escape from persecution or oppression to find their feet again. To feel comfortable that their home is their home. I think that is lacking in some ways today. Pakeha don’t feel fully accepted here at times I think. Pakeha still get told to ‘go home’ sometimes.
Our own whanau (the majority ‘wing’) arrived with a full blown culture in place. One fully indigenous to its own previous land. That culture and that community has since been added to by other peoples and subjected to the vagaries of a new raw nation at the end of the world already occupied by another full blown people. It has taken time for pakeha to find their feet again.
It is not something which is decided on by vote of course. It is most definitely something that develops over time. In my opinion that is happening though. It is also a question (pakeha’s place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is ‘our’ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.
…. Some hastily penned further thoughts requiring enhancement and sharpening …….
“It is also a question (pakehaâs place in aotearoa) which is near solely for pakeha to determine, and only in a very limited way a question for Maori input. Our place is described by our attachment to a place, how that has come t be, sheer timeframes, uniqueness, and other factors, but imo the main describer is âourâ sense of it. It stems from us and we must answer it.”
So nice you are allowing yourself all that vto, almost brings tears to my eyes. If you read some of the comments from some above you will see that it is actually easy to have a sense of place here, a sense of belonging and a sense of peace within your heart about who you are and the home you live in – but that can’t happen when you ignore MÄori and their place in and on this land. It is about working together not replacing – it is about respect and allowing, it is about acceptance and truth. No doubt your research and journey will continue, as it must, until you get one of the basics sorted – the answers are right in front of you if you choose to open your eyes.
I’m sorry this is hard for you vto. I appreciate your latest comment, there is a lot there, complexity, and I don’t feel I can do justice to a reply tonight (been a challenging day today). I think what you have written is worth exploring and is something I’d like to respond to at another time. When you write about things more personally like this it is easier to see what the issues actually are. Thanks.
I have also been curious about a sense of place. I’ve read a lot of research and analysis of it, usually in the realm of “new geography” – an approach to geography that developed in the late 20th century. Basically understanding place is more than just about where a section of society/community/ethnic group has lived.
And there’s ways of understanding one’s place in the world, without trying to ignore the history of racial difference – a human construct with material impacts on lives, where some are dominant and others marginalised.
Some new geographers deal with “race” and place, without erasing the history of racial oppression and marginalisation. It means understanding the historical legacy of Pakeha in colonising Aotearoa.
Some in other countries look at understanding whiteness. RRichard Dyer’s “White” is a classic – about the way whiteness is both dominant and ignored, or rendered invisible.
I have particularly liked the work of Nigel Thrift on place and geography, which also includes the various ways people’s sense of place is influenced by class and other social positions.
And Doreen Massey on gender, culture, globalisation and place.
And agree with marty mars: thinking about one’s place in the world can’t be done without thinking about others and their place and the relationships between us all.
@ vto I agree this is an important topic
I do believe that Pakeha NZers are different from Europeans….one only needs to go overseas to realise this. …And I also believe that Pakeha who have been here for generations have very deep feelings for the land and do have the right to a special sort of standing in New Zealand…..From what I can remember Michael King wrote a lot of Maori history and then when Maori wanted to write their own history and told him to go away he was very hurt…..so Michael King went in search of his own Pakeha identity. “Being Pakeha Now” could have been the title of his book.
I personally know of NZers with absolutely no Maori blood who are imbued with Maori culture and understanding and live alongside Maori ….so much so you would almost think they were a Maori in a Pakeha skin ( maybe they have been reincarnated.. ha ha)…
Also I once met a Maori with long blond hair and blue eyes at university who had a Maori name and said he was Maori…when I thought he was joking he spoke to me in Maori and told me his Mother was Dutch and his Father a Maori….
And this is the case of many NZers. You would be hard pushed to find a “pure” genetic Maori .Also many Pakeha whose families have lived in NZ for generations (eg ancestry British whalers who married Maori women) have some Maori blood…..
I also know of Maori who look Maori but you would think they had the mind set of a European Capitalist ( ha ha)
To complicate this even further some new immigrants adopt everything in NZ culture -, Maori language , culture , tramping , mountaineering , fishing , rugby , sport and beer drinking with such an enthusiasm that they are almost more Maori or Pakeha than the indigenous NZers.!!!!…All to the good … I guess in the end what is important is respect.
PS: Credibility?
We all bring subjectivity to any issue. I try toown mine, vto, partly in the language I use. It’s actually part of examining something objectively and rationally, by making the subjective an explicit object of scrutiny.
All I see in your comments is disavowal of your own subjectivity under claims of total objectivity.
I’ve spent a lot of my life learning about colonisation and its impacts – read widely on it (and written on it as part of courses). And I’ve also spent a lot of my time reading “sub texts” – underlying meanings. Part of such readings includes identifying what is not said – always an important indicator.
Congrats Karol @ 6.3.1.2……….famously well said !
For my part the “specialness” of Maori is not to be unilaterally deprived of Maori, ever.
Yes well North, if you read closely you will notice that Karol’s statement there was her own assumption and nothing to do with my question around King’s reference.
But mustn’t let such realities interfere with our own biases and assumptions eh.
@ vto
Go somewhere quiet and talk to the land …again and again…. it will give you the answers you seek…King did this at the end of his book “Being Pakeha Now” ….This same land has talked to farmers, gardeners, hunters, sailors, mountaineers , trampers, artists and poets…..in the end it is the land that tells you whether you belong and are indigenous. ….it requires silence and reverence.
Chooky, don’t you worry about that I do heaps of it. It is inferred at my comment above at 7.18. I spend more time alone and on in the land that probably 99% of people. Alone, remote, nothing but land sea sky….. It is possibly one of the reasons this subject is excessively raised by me.
@vto OK ….well and good….Well I don’t see the point in arguing about it…..
….The issue really is whether one lives in harmony with the land and cherishes it and derives spiritual sustenance from it….this is the acid test as to whether one is indigenous or not …
…..Or whether one is one of the ‘NEW VULGARIANS’….an exploiter and
de-sacrilizer of the land , an over- populater , a barbarian speculator , a dirty polluter…whose God is materialism and consumerism and profit….and to HELL with the natural environment.
I don’t like Mike Williams as a ‘Spokesperson For Labour’. This morning he put a size 20 foot in his mouth by commenting on policy on housing purchase dampening with negative comments because it will have an immediate increase effect before Labour can be elected in 2014.
Then on top of bad mouthing positive efforts to help this complex difficult problem, felt worldwide, he then increases the fault by referring to Chinese speculators. First that sounds anti-Asian, second he has not referred to the stats on this which show definite peaks for certain western countries, and third he continues his white-anting of the left. Get him out of the media, he can be assessed as 80/20 in his value to the left, with the 80 being against.
Unfortunately Labour don’t appear to measure their value to the left, let alone care about it.
weka
Interesting way of putting it!
Further to my comment above already I have heard John Bank’s whiny little voice castigating the comment about Chinese as if it had been spoken by the Labour leader. Get Mike Williams off Radionz – deny his right to say anything for the left, publicly disagree with him, present him as a turncoat. And do it now. He is bad news for Labour.
And of course on political comment this a.m. Mike Williams hasn’t much to say about reporting on defence force activity and trying to claim everything as being ‘subversive’. He has said something against the surveillance state. Franks is frankly speaking just himself. You know what to expect from him.
Great. Mike Williams makes judgments on Labour’s housing policy based on his own experiences in his area of town – eg being gazumped by an overseas buyer when trying to buy a home, price of rents in his area, etc.
I tried a while ago RoseT. Unfortunately to no avail. It’s been “from the Right [substitute Mike W, Jose P, etc], and from the Right [substitute Mathew H, Steven F, etc]” for quite some time now.
Mike Williams is increasingly using the “I’m in agreement with you [Mathew, Steven]” kaka.
Maybe spending too much time with Paul Henry or fawning over his friendship with Holmes.
. “There’s an avenue for him [Mr Humayun] to go to the police if the guy refused to pay the fare. But in terms of racial abuse, the threshold is very high.”
Susan Devoy. The friend in court of the rednecks. He sounds determined to stop racial abusers getting convicted. Dies she have a clue what her job brief is?
I suggest that the punishment now being inflicted on the bigot is worse for him and better for improving race relations than a conviction would be.
Convicting people for what they think is a dangerous path to start going down.
you can think whatever you like, but you don’t have a right to say whatever you want, wherever you please.
there is large difference between thought and speech (for most anyway)
but you donât have a right to say whatever you want, wherever you please.
You sure?
100%. I suggest you go to your local airport and scuttle about making jokes about bombs.
do try it.
Oh. Did the guy do that?
Is that your comeback? Lame.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10904714
Next the apologist will be saying booze made him do it.
The U$ was and is where the implementation of Neoliberalism started. It is the garbage ideology that Yankey continues to follow. What is the result? A once great Nation because of the New deal is now on the point of collapse economically and socially with an immense privatised prison gulag, a corrupt finacial class in bed with a corrupt government, a corporate fascist state in reality and yet our crazy politicos still buy into the American Nightmare, including NSA style spying on kiwis who have contrary political opinions and activists. Why is the U$ so influential? Mainly because it has a huge military presence which we gratefully hide behind to put off China becoming the regional leader in the Pacific and to help us if Asia’s huge numbers decide to invade us.
The American Nightmare Yankey is pushing us to with stripping minimal income rights from the poorest Kiwis and further privatisation:
“The United States of… Class War, Inequality, and Poverty
New survey data shows perilous state of US economy and suffering of a majority underclass”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/28-1
“It’s time that America comes to understand that many of the nation’s biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position.”
“There is no class war. The 99% is in complete and abject submission to the 1% through the phony (D) vs. (R) bullshit paradigm. The working class has been corralled for shearing by the Democratic Party, which is simply a flavor of the Plutocracy Party which runs the United States.
Obama and most of the Democrats are merely reflections of this reality. The fact that the Plutocracy could get Americans to overcome their racism in the election of an African American Plutocracy Candidate is a testament to the success of the (D) vs. (R) propaganda meme.
The working class cannot fight back until it is able to have a voice – and giving it a voice is the thing that the Plutocrats fear most: Hence, billions are spent maintaining the absurd Kabuki illusion that there are two parties in the United States.
It is time to wake up and reject the false D/R bullshit and cast off the self-fulfilling fear that only the Plutocracy Party’s candidates are “electable”.
There will be no change in the status quo until the Democratic Party – the primary tool of the Plutocracy to keep the working class in line – is dis-empowered and left bereft of its national power.”
This.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/07/28/ap-poll-4-in-5-us-adults-struggle-with-poverty-joblessness/
And this
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/07/20130710_santelli.jpg
Is the Wizard of Oz just a shyster in a cloud of green smoke – is he an Aussie is he, is he, Is he an Aussie is he eh? (Old comedy song)
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
Radio nz this a.m.
Oz- Kiwis falling through the cracks in Australia (â16â˛â39âłâ)
09:30 With Maree O’Halloran – the official spokesperson for the National Welfare
Rights Network (NWRN) and the Director of Sydney’s Welfare Rights Centre. Duncan Sandilands – Founder of the Fair Go 4 All campaign.
and
Concept of operationshttp://www.fairgo4all.com/concept/
Further
http://www.fairgo4all.com/phil-goff-continues/
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/214673/campaign-for-fair-go-in-australia
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888229
Auckland-born student Diana Drysdale became a military cadet at 13, and has only ever wanted to be in the airforce.
But the 15-year-old, who lives near Brisbane, will not be able to fulfil that dream in her adopted home of Australia because her family will never qualify as residents….
The Australian law change was designed to stop backdoor migration from the Pacific Islands and Hong Kong Chinese, who gained New Zealand residency to settle in Australia. Mrs Drysdale believed that the effect it had on military recruitment was unintentional and undesirable.
“The military recruitment people here say they can’t believe it either. They get applications every week from Kiwis wanting to join. It is crazy.”
Mr Sandilands, 53, served as a territorial soldier for seven years. His frustration with being excluded from the ADF was deepened by his family’s rich Australian history – his great-grandfather was Lord Mayor of Melbourne and his grandfather fought with Australian troops at Gallipoli.
(It is surprising that the strongest claim we have for having equal rights in Australia and being treated with the respect of an allied neighbouring country with diplomatic and economic treaties and as we extend most of the rights to Oz residents, is through wanting to serve in their armed forces. Life sure is queer.)
I’ve often wondered when a NZ gubbamint of whatever flavour is going to ask the Australians when they intend putting the NZ back in ANZAC. At the moment it’s only pulled out on ANZAC day mornings.
The last tune-ty, John Key was too busy sucking up to Joolya and looking for foto-ops so he can reflect on all those hoi pear people in his scrap book after he fucks off into the Hawaiian wilderness.
Tim
And it has been shown from journalists queries on Anzac Day that many young people don’t know that it stands for the combined forces of our two countries. It’s just a word that they don’t connect with NZ at all.
The Key Government’s plan for us:
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/the-spirit-of-the-workhouse-is-alive-and-well-in-tory-britain/#comments
A brilliant insight into the reasons for current social policy towards beneficiaries.
@ Johnm
Great link
I question your use of the word ‘social’ policy though, ‘antisocial’ would be a more accurate term. đŻ
Anyone else see this?
Prime Minister John Key, speaking to ONE News deputy political editor Jessica Mutch in South Korea, says heâs is prepared to compromise with NZ First leader Winston Peters to get further support for his GCSB Bill in Parliament.
âI wouldnât rule that out. What Iâve said is that thereâll be the SOP process, so a Supplementary Order Paper. So when the bill comes back to Parliament, itâll have its second reading. Then what happens from there is the committee stage. At the committee stage, we already know a list of things that Peter Dunne will introduce. Now, in a theoretical world, if NZ First or any other political party – letâs take NZ First – came along and said, âWe will support the legislation if you make these changes,â and they were acceptable to the government, there is always that window of opportunity to make that change,â Mr Key says.
Mr Key told the Q+A programme that his office had approached Mr Peters on numerous occasions, âoffering to sit down with me, the officials, in writing. Weâve put all of those sorts of requests there,â but when asked if the lack of response meant it was unlikely the two could work something out, Key says: ânever say neverâ.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1307/S00346/prime-minister-not-ruling-out-further-changes-to-gcsb-bill.htm
So, Key is crawling to Peters now?
i am pretty sure that i have seen Winston Peters on my TV directly saying that the Slippery little Shyster has not contacted NZFirst on any changes that party would want in exchange for supporting that legislation,
If that is the case, Slippery’s latest is simply Him using the media, and i should put an emphasis on the word ‘using’, to be the Slippery little Shyster we all know Him to be…
I wonder whether NatKey are courting Peters for opposite reasons than they are presenting: In order to discourage people to vote for NZF?
He might be an option against National; and therefore if people are making that choice against voting for NZF and find out there is a chance Peters would team up with National; then perhaps less support, under 5% returned and bingo! Kingmaker no more. Back to Act & co
Leopard……..I see the picture……..scary as it “oligarchy” is.
No doubt Mine Potty@Gower and DungCan Gooner will have something rivetingly profound to offer the homogenous listener/viewer.
Part of me feels it’s all played as a shitty game. First and second paragraph. A game of self advancement
Not to overstate it they are fucking round with the nation’s psyche. Our values, our democracy.
@ North
Glad you ‘got’ what I was wondering, because I see I made an error in my comment, which makes it a little hard to understand! (The second time I wrote ‘NZF’, it should have read ‘National’).
They really are fucking around with the nation’s psyche, our values and our democracy. ~ Well said
Leopard, i will take the Slippery little Shysters new found ‘trust’ in Winston Peters and NZFirst on face value, that face value being that even with the ‘Hairdo’ and the ‘Crim’ one small % of vote loss on the 2011 election result and the Shyster will be Slipping right on out of here,
Add to that no Maori Party in the next Parliament,(all gone-burger), and where have the Rats got left to run,
The only possible way i can see that National and it’s head used car salesman can Govern after November 2014 is with the help of NZFirst,(if they can get 5% of the vote)…
The moral case for science and innovation policy
Science and innovation are good for society and thus we should do it. Forget the financials, society is about more than just making a profit.
This is interesting.
Radionz on Windows on the World which started at 8.20 pm and I don’t know how long it goes has something to say to us. If you can’t hear it on Radionz and I think they don’t have audio rights then you can I think get it by going direct to BBC.
They are talking about Kenya where there is 40% unemployment. Yet there is a vital economy developing. As ours becomes more moribund and the government finds new ways of stripping the poor and poorish of tax while the fat cats put theirs on Cloud Nine or somewhere, this might help communities to avoid going bankrupt as in USA.
A firm in Kenya, and there are Kenyan, Chinese, Connecticut and Danish nationals interviewed also, has developed a way of making payments or accessing money through an ordinary mobile phone. It seems that you buy a credit at one of their offices which is like charging your cellphone. Then you have virtual money wherever you go and that cuts out theft. If you are caught short at a remote location I think they said that you can get a small loan immediately. They have found the system works well.
This may be necessary for this country if the banks are going to screw us. These fancy-pancy new aids to nil balances from these super sensitive money-fly cards are apparently being foisted on us. The Kenyan idea would be a good alternative to having to carry lots of cash if they are going to reform the eftpos and credit card systems against our best interests.
This type of vitality might indicate that areas like this are worth shifting to, as NZ appears to have reached the downward slope of the bell curve and is determined to keep going forward, in that downward direction. Australia is not attractive under their present divisive policies, Oz on one side and us on the other. Might be worth while learning Swahili!
good reason for leaving the car at home as often as possible. An article says research shows NZ cities are as polluted as bigger cities overseas.
Become a special surveillance operative in Operation Goose. A unique protest against the GCSB Bill. Them spying on us, us spying one them.
Enlist here.
http://www.facebook.com/events/486194154796447/
Robbie Kaiviti.
New Zealand People’s Mandate Party.