Open Mike 31/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:04 am, October 31st, 2018 - 160 comments
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160 comments on “Open Mike 31/10/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    31 October 2018 at 6:25 am

    Chris Trotter has written a brilliant piece about the challenges New Zealand faces as catastrophic climate rapidly approaches. He singles out the parliamentary Green Party and its leaders for failing to lead on this matter.
    It is a challenge for us as well.
    As Rachel a stewart writes, “Virtually everything we argue about and/or discuss relates to climate change/capitalism. Both are intertwined, unchecked and deadly. .”
    We must keep the issue of catastrophic climate change front and foremost in all our discussions.
    We must pressure for action today.

    “Saving the planet and feeding all its people long ago ceased to be a practical proposition. The amount of cultivatable land will shrink – along with the quantity of water necessary to ensure adequate harvests. As the mean global temperature increase passes 2oC, millions of human-beings will begin to starve. What is the correct moral response to famine, disease and conflict on an unprecedented scale? When the boatloads of desperate climate-change refugees start appearing off New Zealand’s coast, what should a Green New Zealand government do?

    This is a long way from green technological fixes and rehabilitating four-letter words.

    So, too, is deciding what to do when the big container ships and the oil-tankers stop venturing this far south. When the sheer number of super-hurricanes renders voyages too far out into the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific Oceans uninsurable. How will a Green government keep the chronically-ill provided with their life-saving pharmaceuticals; and crucial machinery supplied with spare parts; when the flow of these vital imports ceases? How will it keep the lights on and the electric cars powered-up when the snow refuses to fall and the hydro lakes are empty?

    Who in today’s Green caucus has the courage to tell New Zealanders that teaching young people the skills required to keep the post-industrial communities of the future functioning is now a matter of urgency. Because in 100 years’ time Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin will be only a fraction of their present size and most of the population will be living in the countryside – where the food is. Which of today’s Greens are working with Maori to preserve the indigenous medical and pharmacological knowledge built-up over the 600 years of non-European occupation of Aotearoa?

    Who will dare to tell today’s captains of industry that in 50 years the Internet will be but a memory? That the genocidal global resource wars will kick off with the destruction of the undersea communication cables. That the revolutions, civil and religious wars that roll across the sweltering continents will leave the control hubs for satellite communication unmanned for a generation. That the rocket launching pads will become nesting places for such birds as still fly through Earth’s fetid air.

    These are the challenges which Green parties should be preparing us for. The challenges arising out of the fundamental transformations anticipated and demanded in the latest IPCC report. Deluding voters into thinking that somehow the scientists will come up with a way of saving us all: a way which allows capitalism, consumerism and narcissistic individualism to continue unchecked and unmodified; is not something with which any responsible Green should be associated.”

    The whole article is here.

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-long-term-green-advantage-of.html

    • Ed 1.1
      31 October 2018 at 6:29 am

      Mike Joy, a courageous and independent scientist, has also warned of us of the need to act now or face catastrophic climate change.

      “How many barrels of oil does it take to power the economy? Far from the punchline of a joke, the answer outlined by Dr Mike Joy, a senior researcher at Victoria University of Wellington’s Institute for Governance and Policy Studies, in a public lecture highlights some disturbing truths about our reliance on oil, the importance of energy to the economy, and how we might “transition to a de-carbonised world”.

      Starting with the dire warning from more than 20,000 scientists worldwide that “if the world doesn’t act soon, there will be catastrophic biodiversity loss and untold amounts of human misery”, Joy went on to introduce the field of Biophysical Economics and one of its key concepts—Energy return on energy invested (EROI), or “how much energy do you have to put in to get that back?”.

      The energy density of our alternatives is so much lower than fossil fuels, but if we want to keep under the 1.5oC threshold, we have to reduce our emissions by 6 percent per year from today,” said Joy.

      “Basically we’re going to have to get used to having a whole lot less energy than what we had before, and that’s our only future. We have to figure out how we’re going to do that.”

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@future-learning/2018/10/29/297393/energy-makes-the-economy-go-round

      • One Two 1.1.1
        31 October 2018 at 8:50 am

        Do either articles reference the impact of military and war inc on climate?

        Influence of atmospheric damage created through ‘experimental activity’?

        To ignore or pretend they are not a major causal element is foolhardy at best…

      • solkta 1.1.2
        31 October 2018 at 9:16 am

        has also warned of us of the need to act now or face catastrophic climate change.

        But isn’t this the opposite of what Trotter is saying? Joy says there is still time to act while Trotter says it’s too late and we should give up and plan for the worst case scenario.

      • sumsuch 1.1.3
        31 October 2018 at 10:25 pm

        Yet so many governments aren’t ready to face it, let alone try. Capitalism’s all been ‘pay-later’ thinking — little children preferring a definite sweet now to possible sweets later. Feast rather than the long term. Not sure that’s wrong.

        As we get to the sharp end of our feast and look out on our children and grandchildren, oblivious in their present comfort to the pre-agricultural deprivation awaiting them , we must do what we can to turn the freighter.

    • solkta 1.2
      31 October 2018 at 7:07 am

      Yawn. So what is Trotter doing about it? What skills is he acquiring?

      He’s a lot like you really Ed.

      • Ed 1.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 7:39 am

        Do you think climate change is a yawn?
        Wow…..

        If you had been paying attention on this site, you will know I stopped eating meat because of climate change.

        What are you doing?
        Apart from emailing snide comments?

        • Incognito 1.2.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 7:42 am

          Woosh!

          • SaveNZ 1.2.1.1.1
            31 October 2018 at 8:29 am

            One of the issues with climate change is that it seems so insurmountable that it has become less of a priority against the daily capitalist grind of making money or survival.

            Maybe it needs to be put into smaller segments by what each industry should or could be doing for example, insurance, what are they doing (apart from putting up premiums until they refuse to cover the risks), what is dairy farming doing, what are electrical companies doing, what are councils doing, what is transport doing (in Wellington changing to diesel buses for example, FAIL) etc etc

            It has to be changed from two words into the practical legislation of prevention and now.

        • solkta 1.2.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 8:33 am

          Trotter is a yawn. He has no idea what “Green” is. He can’t understand that greenies care about ecosystems and not just people. That they want to limit the damage to the environment generally and not just say “fuck it”. Watching him try and comment with relevance on the Green Party is akin to watching a chimpanzee studying an internal combustion engine.

          He has an agenda here like always. He wishes to attack the Greens as best he can. If it is the survival of working people that is at stake, then why not attack Labour Party policy? He is a stale old school leftie with zero relevance.

          Giving up meat is not preparing for the scenario that Trotter is speaking of. Many of the imported vegan protein sources that you eat would not be available. Are you learning what of these crops could be grown here and where, and how to grow them sustainably? Your ignorance of permaculture that you have shown so many times here would suggest not.

          I also don’t believe that you gave up meat because of climate change. This is certainly something you like to hang it off along with animal welfare, but your rigidity on the subject shows that it is a personal thing. You have refused to even consider that animals may have a part in permaculture land systems. Grazing chickens in orchards is one example i have given. Mussel farms would be another animal based culture that could both improve the environment and provide good quality protein.

          I’m not doing what Trotter suggests because i am a greenie. I am rather working to limit the damage to the environment by participating in a political party with the same aims.

          I am though as part of generally being a greenie landscaping and developing my half acre urban property along permaculture principles and practice.

          Trotter is a lot like you Ed because basically you are both full of shit.

          • RedLogix 1.2.1.2.1
            31 October 2018 at 9:01 am

            Is there anything that Trotter actually wrote that you disagree with? If anything I’d rate his sentiments a tad on the alarmist end of the spectrum; but not unreasonable either. So exactly why do you think all this a ‘yawn’?

            Or are you just offended because Trotter has strayed on the Green’s widdling patch?

            • solkta 1.2.1.2.1.1
              31 October 2018 at 9:31 am

              I think i’ve explained above why i find him a yawn.

              Going all doom and gloom would be an idiotic strategy for the Greens in the current context. The first step to progress is to get a general consensus to address the problem. Telling people that it is too late to address the problem will not help.

              • RedLogix …
                31 October 2018 at 10:09 am

                OK that makes more sense; I agree totally. Doom and gloom nihilism is literally a dead-end response. And Trotter is certainly not the only one to have flirted with it either.

                But hell, faced with such an overwhelming prospect you can surely have some empathy for where it comes from.

                • solkta …
                  31 October 2018 at 10:13 am

                  Part of the yawn is that i don’t think Trotter is being genuine but rather taking an angle to attack the Greens. As i point to above, these criticism would be better addressed to Labour as Trotter shows only concern for people and not the environment too.

                  • RedLogix …
                    31 October 2018 at 10:23 am

                    I’m not going to quibble how you interpret Trotter’s motives; you’re entitled to your reading of him.

                    Still he isn’t the enemy either, and not every ally is going to map 100% onto your own motives and values. But that doesn’t mean we cannot reach out and work with people where there is some common ground.

                    • solkta …
                      31 October 2018 at 10:41 am

                      Hey not ruling out working with the guy. Just responding to him attacking the people doing the actual work.

          • Augustus 1.2.1.2.2
            31 October 2018 at 9:21 am

            Mussel farms improve the environment? My Marlborough Sounds based relatives would strongly disagree. Maybe if the growers weren’t so greedy…

            • solkta 1.2.1.2.2.1
              31 October 2018 at 9:48 am

              When done along sustainable principles yes. Mussels filter the water and remove nitrogen and phosphorus and so can help restore our estuaries and harbours.

        • cleangreen 1.2.1.3
          31 October 2018 at 9:56 am

          100% Ed, full marks there.

          You are right and others seem to ignore the warnings totally at their peril and ours too.

          Phase of the day; “None so deaf as those who will not listen”

    • Gabby 1.3
      31 October 2018 at 9:37 am

      The Trotsker seems to be missing the point he is making.

    • Bearded Git 1.4
      31 October 2018 at 10:01 am

      Ed, I posted this the other day on TS in relation to Trotter’s latest attack on the Greens…..

      Trotter hates the Greens and has never really tried to understand them. He wants rid of them.

      He is an unreconstructed Old Lefty and writes very well, often brilliantly, about that sector of traditional left-wing union-dominated politics. Nothing wrong with any of that BTW-all power to the unions.

      But why he attacks the Greens when Labour will probably never be able to form a government without the Greens I can’t fathom.

      Meanwhile the Greens are polling 7% and doing fine.

      They are particularly strong on transport-it will be good when Genter comes back from maternity leave.

      Since I wrote the above the Greens have had another policy gain with the retention and refurbishment of 15 electric locos that should help to get freight out of trucks and on to rail. Not all Green policies are climate change related; many have major social gains.

      • Dukeofurl 1.4.1
        31 October 2018 at 2:39 pm

        “Meanwhile the Greens are polling 7% and doing fine”

        Greens vote is ‘usually’ less than their pre election polls. There is only so much their base vote amoungst tertiary educated middle class women will do.
        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/NZ_opinion_polls_2014-2017-majorparties.png
        Poll trend was Greens 7% +-2% and NZ First 6% +-1%

        Actual result was Greens 6.2% while NZ first 7.2% One was up on trend the other was down .
        2014 election had Greens polling on say 12.2% while election result was 10.7% and similar in 2011.
        7% is not doing fine , its saying they will get much the same as now, which is a ‘setback’

  2. Tony Veitch [not etc.] 2
    31 October 2018 at 6:27 am

    On similar lines to Ed’s post above:

    Sometimes ‘The Canary’ comes up with little gems!

    Extinction Rebellion – 31st October.

    “A problem thousands of years in the making

    “For around 5,000 years we’ve had a problem as a species. We have lived in hierarchies for most of that time. A few people at the top have control over what the rest of us do.
    “And, if we’re honest with ourselves, we know this has never really worked. Because if it had, why has there generally always been poor people at the bottom? Why has there commonly been some human lives that are worth more than others?

    “We consider ourselves the most advanced life form on the planet; possibly the universe. Yet throughout our history, the majority of us have willingly accepted a minority telling us what to do. When has it benefited us? And why, in 2018, is society no more truly equal than it was thousands of years ago? Even with all our academic, scientific, and technological advances?

    “Today, we may be led to believe that just because we own a car, rent a house, and buy the same shopping each week that we’re ‘more equal’ to Richard Branson than Egyptian slaves were to their Pharaoh. Looks can be deceptive. Because it’s all relative. Many of us may not be physical slaves – but only the Richard Bransons truly have freedom in 21st century society.”

    “Original sin

    “But moreover, why do we still put up with these damaging hierarchies?
    “It’s called greed and power. The first is a human desire; forged over thousands of years by hierarchies. One that tells us having more stuff makes us better than our neighbour. The second is almost a drug, that corrupts many people who have it. Those at the top push both as being in reach of those at the bottom. Together, they’re what drive benefit cuts; make people homeless; allow fracking and destroy the NHS. But now, this greed and power from the ‘one percent’ has literally put every species and the planet at risk. And we continue to be complicit in it; consciously or not.
    “This has to end.”

    Read the entire article:

    https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2018/10/30/our-time-is-up-weve-got-nothing-left-but-rebellion/

    “To put it bluntly: we’re fucked. And the only way it will change is by all of us taking drastic action now. We can’t leave it to politicians and corporations to decide. Unless someone can name one point in history when leaving power in the hands of a few has been good for the many? As in every single lifeform on this planet? And when it actually lasted.”

    • Ed 2.1
      31 October 2018 at 6:35 am

      Yes, I would agree with you.
      Unless we get rid of capitalism, we are going to see a brutal transition to a simpler sustainable future or even our extinction as a species. It’s that stark.
      Our actions have already caused mass rapid extinction that may prove irreversible.

      This article came out in the Guardian yesterday.

      “Humanity has wiped out 60% of mammals, birds, fish and reptiles since 1970, leading the world’s foremost experts to warn that the annihilation of wildlife is now an emergency that threatens civilisation.

      The new estimate of the massacre of wildlife is made in a major report produced by WWF and involving 59 scientists from across the globe. It finds that the vast and growing consumption of food and resources by the global population is destroying the web of life, billions of years in the making, upon which human society ultimately depends for clean air, water and everything else.

      “We are sleepwalking towards the edge of a cliff” said Mike Barrett, executive director of science and conservation at WWF. “If there was a 60% decline in the human population, that would be equivalent to emptying North America, South America, Africa, Europe, China and Oceania. That is the scale of what we have done.”

      “This is far more than just being about losing the wonders of nature, desperately sad though that is,” he said. “This is actually now jeopardising the future of people. Nature is not a ‘nice to have’ – it is our life-support system.”

      https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds

      • Ed 2.1.1
        31 October 2018 at 6:44 am

        And there’s more sobering, shocking news about human impacts on the planet.

        It all puts the corporate media’s discussions about royal visits, All Blacks’ selections and Jono and Ben’s axing in context. Utter trivia, complete distractions.
        The media is a major obstacle to humankind acting immediately to avert the oncoming catastrophe.
        Unless we approach the challenge and mobilise as if it were WW3, then we can forget passing a habitable world to our grandchildren.

        “Scientists in Canada have warned that massive glaciers in the Yukon territory are shrinking even faster than would be expected from a warming climate – and bringing dramatic changes to the region.
        After a string of recent reports chronicling the demise of the ice fields, researchers hope that greater awareness will help the public better understand the rapid pace of climate change.
        The rate of warming in the north is double that of the average global temperature increase, concluded the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in its annual Arctic Report Card, which called the warming “unprecedented”.
        “The region is one of the hotspots for warming, which is something we’ve come to realize over the last 15 years,” said David Hik of Simon Fraser University. “The magnitude of the changes is dramatic.”

        Whole story here.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/30/canada-glaciers-yukon-shrinking

    • RedLogix 2.2
      31 October 2018 at 8:48 am

      “But moreover, why do we still put up with these damaging hierarchies?

      It is a paradox. Hierarchy arises from value. The core reason why humans do anything at all is because when we move from one condition to another, we expect the outcome to be ‘better’. And we can only measure this using values; we constantly stack up and compare, we order from best to worst, we are hardwired to create hierarchies of value.

      Translating value into action demands performance. And all humans have different competency and we all perform at different levels. For instance I’m an experienced programmer and understand some of the science; but compared to the towering figures at the centre of the computing revolution, Kurt Goedel, Alan Turing and John von Neuman I’m way, way down the hierarchy of value. And of all the computer people who ever worked in the field, only a tiny fraction will make a real, novel and valuable contribution. The rest of us are mere artisans of varying degrees of skill. Something the Pareto distribution (and it’s close cousin Prices Law) describes.

      Every field of human endeavour is organised in hierarchies of value; whether we formalise them or not. They are how we know what is ‘better’ and which direction to move in. Hierarchy in inherent and inevitable; it cannot be eradicated without also demolishing entire value structures. If you ‘end’ all values, precisely what will you do today? What is worth doing anymore? Or is the phrase ‘drastic action’ a code for ‘an orgy of destruction because I’m angry and too ignorant to think of anything better’?

      The modern world is massively complex; and it creaks and totters in many vital organs. But the person who wrote this article has no fucking clue how to actually fix it. It amounts to thinking you can usefully improve a precision machine with a sledgehammer … and pretending there will be no consequences when it breaks.

      • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 2.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 9:47 am

        I feel you’ve rather missed the point of the article.

        Whether we like it or not, the sledgehammer is poised to strike. We’re not going to even approach the beginning of fixing climate change by tinkering at its edges.

        Hence the movement’s title – Extinction Rebellion.

        The old ways got us into this mess! Well, let’s be anarchists – tear it all down and see what comes out of it all.

        Perhaps there are no solutions, only actions.

        • RedLogix 2.2.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 10:00 am

          Well, let’s be anarchists – tear it all down and see what comes out of it all.

          I promise you, an even bigger mess. The original problems would only get worse, and our capacity to deal with them would eliminated. Not a smart strategy at all.

          Look I’m not unsympathetic to the sentiment; I get it. The outlook is bleak and scary and the temptation to advocate for ‘something dramatic’ is real. But also profoundly irresponsible.

        • Gosman 2.2.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

          It has been tried before and it has failed miserably every time. It is cute you think the idea is an original one though.

      • AB 2.2.2
        31 October 2018 at 10:56 am

        I agree that hierarchies of skill and value are unavoidable. People after all are not equally talented, hardworking, etc.
        But I don’t believe it’s inevitable, or right, that we jump from that fact into accepting extreme hierarchies of power and reward, which are quite different things.

        • RedLogix 2.2.2.1
          31 October 2018 at 11:21 am

          Yes. Although hierarchy is necessary and unavoidable; it is also prone to being captured and becoming corrupt. Hierarchy endows power which can easily be mis-directed into protecting itself and tilting the rewards unjustly.

          A healthy hierarchy provides stability and direction of purpose; while at the same time is open to scrutiny, review and re-invention when the environment changes. In very general terms the right is good at operating the system according to the agreed rules and procedures; the left is good at calling it out when it becomes corrupt and needs refreshing.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3
        31 October 2018 at 12:12 pm

        Hierarchy arises from value.

        No it doesn’t else Donald Trump would be living in a caravan park.

        And of all the computer people who ever worked in the field, only a tiny fraction will make a real, novel and valuable contribution.

        Actually, it’s probably far more likely that they’re just not properly recognised for the work that they’ve done. I recall the story of the guy who invented industrial diamonds. He spent hundred of hours working for no reward and when he accomplished it the company gave him a $10 gift voucher while stating that the discovery was theirs.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.3
      31 October 2018 at 11:24 am

      As I’ve been saying for years: We cannot afford the rich and Capitalism is the problem.

      • RedLogix 2.3.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:50 am

        Nope. Capitalism is essentially the economic expression of the Rennaisance idea of the sovereign individual. It links the idea of the right of every individual to equality before the law and equality of opportunity, to the right to private property. It embeds the notion of human right to dignity and security with the capacity to own their body, their labour and the fruits of it.

        The notion of private property is a very old one; but when it met the evolution of the modern credit money systems and legally protected in English common law … the result was the broad system we call capitalism. As an economic tool is has been incredibly successful on its own terms; as a social and environmental tool it has deep shortcomings. Capitalism as we have it right now has problems, but it’s not the problem.

        You advocate throwing the tool away and hoping something better will come along; I’m arguing that we study the existing tool closely, regard what it does well, understand it’s limitations and why they arise … and carefully engineer a better version.

        This is why competent economists like Steven Keen never talk about ‘the end of capitalism’. Instead he devotes time, talent and energy to understanding the system (his Minsky Model is a masterpiece), and works to train the next generation of economic leaders in more sophisticated implementations of what we already have.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 12:06 pm

          Capitalism is essentially the economic expression of the Rennaisance idea of the sovereign individual. It links the idea of the right of every individual to equality before the law and equality of opportunity, to the right to private property. It embeds the notion of human right to dignity and security with the capacity to own their body, their labour and the fruits of it.

          No it doesn’t. It embeds the right of the rich to own everything and thus to live the life of kings on the labour of everyone else.

          The notion of private property is a very old one;

          Yes it is and it’s brought about the collapse of every single civilisation that took it too far. Private ownership needs to be heavily restricted to personal items. The problems begin when it’s extended into owning land, houses and business.

          As an economic tool is has been incredibly successful on its own terms; as a social and environmental tool it has deep shortcomings.

          Yes, it’s made a few people very rich at everyone else’s expense.

          You advocate throwing the tool away and hoping something better will come along;

          No I’m not. I’m advocating dropping private ownership of houses, businesses and land. Land and houses will be state owned, city managed. Businesses will be self-owned and run as cooperatives by the people who work in them. There will be no shareholders.

          Money to be created by the government and spent into the economy via productive works, 0% interest loans to businesses and a UBI. It won’t be created by private banks whenever they make a loan.

          In other words, the system would be very similar to what we have now but without the bludging of shareholders and other forms of unearned income that is detrimental to society.

          • Gosman 2.3.1.1.1
            31 October 2018 at 12:19 pm

            How come not one single state has attempted your proposed solutions, even the ones who are anti-capitalist like Cuba and North Korea?

          • RedLogix 2.3.1.1.2
            31 October 2018 at 12:36 pm

            I’m advocating dropping private ownership of houses, businesses and land. Land and houses will be state owned, city managed. Businesses will be self-owned and run as cooperatives by the people who work in them. There will be no shareholders.

            In other words you are saying that your version of communism would be less catastrophic than all the ones tried already. I’m not sure whether to admire your optimistic naivety, or call out the dangerous hubris.

            it’s made a few people very rich at everyone else’s expense.

            You come back to this point so often I have to conclude Orwell was right; you don’t care so much about the poor as you simply hate the rich. It’s not a promising starting point.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.3.1.1.2.1
              31 October 2018 at 12:58 pm

              In other words you are saying that your version of communism would be less catastrophic than all the ones tried already.

              Communism hasn’t been tried. All we’ve had is other forms of hierarchy which failed as hierarchies always do.

              you don’t care so much about the poor as you simply hate the rich.

              The present system fails. It has always failed and always will. Eliminating the capitalists will, as a matter of fact, ensure that everyone will get the value that they produce rather than having it syphoned off to bludging shareholders and other rentiers.

              The poor will actually be better off as they’ll no longer be paying taxes to the rich.

          • RedLogix 2.3.1.1.3
            31 October 2018 at 12:50 pm

            I’ve traveled some this road last year to get to a job. Watch just the first five minutes of this and understand why you have trouble convincing me:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1noUh2NrLI

        • JohnSelway 2.3.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 12:28 pm

          Nice to see some rational solutions to the problems with capitalism there, Red.

          • Antoine 2.3.1.2.1
            31 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

            Although seriously engaging with Draco about the practicality of his ideas always seems like a bit of a trap

            A.

        • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 2.3.1.3
          31 October 2018 at 2:16 pm

          Do you seriously think, when climate catastrophe strikes, as strike it will, all the norms of society will not be thrown into confusion?

          We cannot, simply cannot ‘profit’ our way out of what is coming. We need to already be thinking outside the box, and that will probably mean a complete rethink of the institutions of government.

          We simply cannot envisage what shit may happen as a result of catastrophic climate change. But what I do believe is – we can’t solve any of the looming problems by ‘capitalistic’ tinkering.

          • RedLogix 2.3.1.3.1
            31 October 2018 at 3:05 pm

            Do you seriously think, when climate catastrophe strikes, as strike it will

            There are two reactions to a threat which always fail:

            1. Denialism: Pretending it’s not happening OR if it is it doesn’t matter.

            2. Catastrophism: Pretending that it’s so bad that either nothing can be done, OR that everything has to be impossibly changed deal with it.

            • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 2.3.1.3.1.1
              31 October 2018 at 3:50 pm

              There is a third reaction which will also probably fail, given the enormity of the change that is coming:

              3. Blinkered thinking/she’ll be rightism. “We can get through this with only small changes to the way we make money.”

              Humanity has never faced such a monumental change in such a relatively small period of time. We simply cannot afford to take this threat lightly.

              • RedLogix …
                31 October 2018 at 4:02 pm

                Ah no. Nothing ‘she’ll be right about it’.

                But frankly any and all suggestions that we have to tear down the global economy in order to deal with this are fucking idiotic. Lets do that, lets stop everything, shut down the economies of the world tomorrow and stop every skerrick of activity that might possibly cause climate change.

                Have you any idea how murderous this would be? The resulting chaos, social disruption, violence and famine would put at direct risk the lives of billions; immediately.

                And any possible chance to address the problem without a mass die-off would be lost … deliberately. Maybe this is what you want; it’s hard to tell.

                • Tony Veitch [not etc.] …
                  31 October 2018 at 4:50 pm

                  RL, I can’t see into the future any more than you can – but, if the entire tropical band north and south of the equator becomes too hot for human life, do you seriously think there won’t be chaos?

                  Millions, perhaps as many as a billion, of people will be forced to migrate to more equatable climatic areas – at the same time as the grain-lands of Europe and North America will be coming under climate stress. Already some governments in Europe are digging in their toes about accepting more migrants. And the exodus hasn’t even started yet.

                  Seriously, the decades from 2020 to 2040 could be a clusterfuck of disruption. Hundreds of millions of people will probably die and the institutions of government will struggle to cope with the catastrophe.

                  I sure as hell don’t know how we’re going to get through to the other side, but I repeat, I think we should be thinking outside the box already.

                  But perhaps I’m being too pessimistic? Perhaps capitalism will rise to the challenge, solve the climate change problem and make money at the same time!

                  • RedLogix …
                    31 October 2018 at 5:12 pm

                    Of course I understand everything you say above is a real possibility. I’m not neglecting or discounting that at all. But I do know that plunging the global economy into an immediate crisis is a certain route to an even worse outcome.

                    Every time we use climate change as the end to justify the means of ‘ending capitalism’ we achieve nothing except amplify and confirm the suspicions of most of the population. Most people are not communists or hard radical left. They don’t want a bar of it. Provoking them with useless talk makes an already monumentally difficult task harder.

                    There is no single silver bullet solution to this; it’s multi-dimensional and complex. No single person, or organisation, or nation on it’s own stands any chance of succeeding.

                    But 7 billion people can together do it. The trick is getting us together. Learn to be competent and persuasive; find something you can do, however small, and get good at it. Then people will come flocking to offer you bigger opportunities.

                    I don’t know the future either; but I do know there is only one strategy which optimises our chances of getting through this without too much devastation. Stop tilting at windmills, learn to use the already powerful tools around media, technology and money to make your case positively. The box of ideas and possible tech to get us through this mess is already huge, you don’t need to invent anything original or unique. Surround yourself with people who know what they are doing and ally yourself with them, even when at first brush you don’t agree with them.

                    The challenge could turn out even more monstrous than either of us imagine. But we’ve lost already unless we face it skillfully. I don’t intend to be mean here, but recycled neo-marxist tosh will not cut mustard.

  3. WeTheBleeple 3
    31 October 2018 at 6:52 am

    Dear Green Party

    I’m posting this for those involved in any manner with Canterbury re drought. Please pass this on. The methods as outlined here involve restoration of eroded outlets and installation of ‘dams’ that retain water to be infiltrated into the land. Plantings are also essential for the shade and infiltration aspects provided, including the build up of organic matter which increases a soils capacity for holding water, and decreasing evaporation.

    Get cracking showing how it works on a model farm in the drought area. (You do have a decent hydrologist/ecologist/permie designer in your ranks??) Within a couple of years other farmers will be lined up to get their land rehydrated.

    The drainage systems covering our country can be converted to retaining water (and draining excess) easily. Simple floodgate control at storm culverts will enable rehydration of the land.

    It’s not a far stretch to show how with similar methods you can also turn riparian scrub into highly productive aquaculture/silviculture re: the late Charles Mitchell’s farm. I know his system, too.

    Refill the aquifers, restore the landscape. Consultation available. Time wasters will be shredded by my Aspie ire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4OBcRHX1Bc

    • SaveNZ 3.1
      31 October 2018 at 9:26 am

      Thanks for that great link, WeTheBleeple

      Sounds like the opposite of where NZ is going and taking the water out of the aquifers and not being vigilant against ground water pollution, instead these farmers are tying to restore natural water systems, pre colonial times, against drought.

    • RedLogix 3.2
      31 October 2018 at 10:16 am

      I watched this last night. It is a prime example of exactly the kind of competent and effective response we truly need to beat this bastard.

      Quit the bickering and bitching; watch this and be impressed. Be inspired, and then look around at your own life, look for what is immediately in front of you and fix that first.

      My partner has a wry joke that goes “If you’re going to learn cross-country skiing, start with a small country first”.

      Then come back here, tell us your success story and help others.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:37 am

        Most people can’t afford to change, to fix what’s in front of them.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.2
        31 October 2018 at 5:22 pm

        Humankind spawned “this bastard” – the mystery is why we continue to nuture it in spite of known threats.

        Maybe partly to do with the fact the many (some more than most) have done very well from ‘it’, at least in the short term.

        “The current economic system being utilized and internalized relies on perpetual growth. It has long operated counter to the reality that we are confined to a finite planet with finite resources. Yet, this system continues to be practiced and promoted globally. As the environmental and social repercussions of disbelief in limits become increasingly clear, so does our need for a new economic system —one that is not wedded to growth. Neither growth in the number of consumers nor growth in the amount consumed.”

        “So far the politicians and economists are so wedded to growth that they insist that economic growth is itself the main characteristic of sustainable development.” – a fine example of magical thinking; our leaders have so many constraints on their imaginations.

        • RedLogix 3.2.2.1
          31 October 2018 at 5:44 pm

          Yes I largely agree with this DK; but to most people the idea of de-growth is deeply unattractive. There are profound psychological reasons why; and it would make a great tangential discussion to explore them.

          Look most people have a fair clue that the current setup is a bit fucked. And there are many, many people at least a little open to the idea of changing the way we organise our economies if we can present a competent, credible alternative plan.

          No-one wants to go back to medieval living standards; they just won’t voluntarily go there. And there are tens of thousands of people out there right now working on ways to solve the problem. Not all of them will work, but some will. They need our help and encouragement. They need us to be good at this; they don’t need us sitting about renting sackcloth.

          And don’t discount the possibility that an entire raft of new tech, some of it very close to coming online, like solid state lithium batteries, perovskite enhanced PV’s, a whole generation of graphene based materials and techniques, HVDC global grids and on to whole rafts of research I’ve never heard of … all have the potential to transform our resource intensity dramatically. We have to bet on this.

          And I understand that at core, it is the human heart that will prove most stubborn to change. But at least it can and will change with zero carbon footprint 🙂

    • patricia bremner 3.3
      31 October 2018 at 12:35 pm

      We are in Aus currently, and this programme has just aired on tv. Australia’s latest PM supported this idea the previous one dissed it.

      It was amazing to see how the hydrated land survived 4 years drought.
      It all made so much sense.

    • Morrissey 3.4
      31 October 2018 at 7:57 pm

      Dirty dairying is destroying this country.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-12-2017/#comment-1427213

  4. Morrissey 4
    31 October 2018 at 7:21 am

    SIX MONTHS ON: GAZA’S GREAT MARCH OF RETURN

    Has Jacinda Ardern spoken out about this yet? And if not, why not?

    … The protests were launched to demand the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees to their villages and towns in what is now Israel, and to call for an end to Israel’s blockade. They culminated on 14 May, on the day of the US embassy’s move from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and the eve of the 70th anniversary of the Nakba, when Palestinians commemorate the displacement and dispossession of hundreds of thousands in 1948-9 during the conflict following the creation of the state of Israel. On that day alone, Israeli forces killed 59 Palestinians, in a horrifying example of use of excessive force and live ammunition against protesters who did not pose an imminent threat to life.

    The organizers of the “Great March of Return” have repeatedly stated that the protests are intended to be peaceful, and they have largely involved demonstrators protesting near the fence that separates the Gaza Strip from Israel. Despite this, the Israeli army reinforced its forces – deploying tanks, military vehicles and soldiers, including snipers, along the Gaza/Israel fence – and gave orders to shoot anyone within several hundred metres of the fence.

    While some protesters have engaged in some forms of violence including by burning tyres, flying incendiary kites or throwing stones and Molotov cocktails in the direction of Israeli soldiers, social media videos, as well as eyewitness testimonies gathered by Amnesty International, Palestinian and Israeli human rights groups show that Israeli soldiers shot unarmed protesters, bystanders, journalists and medical staff approximately 150-400m from the fence, where they did not pose any threat. ….

    Read more…
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/

    • weston 4.1
      31 October 2018 at 7:08 pm

      Wierd scenes eh Morrissey in the wake of the shooting in the states of the jews in the synagog …maybe my hearings not the best …but i didnt hear a single news outlet explore the possibility thet the reason they got shot might have been something to do with the fact israel shoots palistinians with total impunity on a regular basis .Nope according to the worlds reporters its ANTI SEMITISM .

  5. esoteric pineapples 5
    31 October 2018 at 8:59 am

    “As Facebook and Twitter are purging alternative media outlets, a neoconservative operative at a US government-funded think tank says more censorship is on its way. Max Blumenthal and Jeb Sprague discuss how scaremongering over Russia and China is being exploited to silence dissent on social media.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgXv6igtW3c

  6. Ad 6
    31 October 2018 at 9:12 am

    Great to see the Minister of Transport reverse the Kiwirail board decision and require them to continue with electric trains rather than diesel.

    This refurbishment will keep the Hutt workshop busy for years.

    Also very good to.see them considering converting the whole fleet to hydrogen rather than extending electrification.

    This would pull out all their diesel and give stronger network resiliency.

    • millsy 6.1
      31 October 2018 at 9:34 am

      They would be better off running the trains on gas turbines.

      For all this talk about hydrogen, no one has actually come up with a viable hydrogen propulsion system that has been put into everyday use.

    • cleangreen 6.2
      31 October 2018 at 10:06 am

      About time Phil woke up to save the electric rail system as he was previously “sidelined by false reports coming out of MBIE old “cherry picked” documents National had made up to show rail was not worth saving or ‘viable’ so twyford thought rail was dead. Thank christ he has come to his senses not a minute to soon.

      Our letter to Minister of transport Phil twyford last week;

      Protecting our environment & health.
      In association with other Community Groups, NHTCF and all Government Agencies since 2001.
      • Health and wellbeing.
      • East Coast Transport Project.

      TO;
      Hon Phil Twyford – Minister of Transport.
      Hon’ Jacinda Ardern PM.
      Hon Winston Peters. Deputy PM.
      Hon’ Shane Jones. Minister of Regional Development.
      Hon’ Grant Robertson. Minister of Finance.
      Hon’ Stuart Nash. MP For Napier Wairoa/ Matawai regions.
      Hon’ Megan Woods. Minister of Energy.
      URGENT PRESS RELEASE; – ACTION NEEDED HERE BY – Transport Minister Twyford.

      26th October 2018.

      Dear Ministers, Local civic authorities & rail stakeholders,

      We have written to you all multiple times since becoming our new Government requesting to restore our railway to Gisborne that was damaged after a storm in March 2012; – and caused by a lack of rail funding maintenance in 2011 on after funding was cut by Minister of transport Steven Joyce; – http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1302/S00183/kiwirail-admits-lack-of-maintenance-led-to-wash-out.htm

      Here is an important study paper from October 11, 2018 by Cody Januszko, Carnegie Mellon University Department of Engineering and Public Policy Transporting freight by road accounts for around seven percent of the world’s total energy-related carbon dioxide emissions. Recognizing that heavy road freight is particularly hard to decarbonize, says the paper here.

      But the report also claims roads are subsidised by us for truck freight so we need to level the playing field now in favour of “encouraging more rail freight services in all our exporting regions now and not delay the move back to rail freight any more.

      QUOTE; “In the U.S., railroads own their own tracks, so they have to build their own infrastructure,” says Vaishnav, an assistant research professor in EPP. “Trucking uses public infrastructure, but does not bear the full cost of the damage heavy trucks do to roads and other infrastructure and indeed to the environment.”

      Here attached above are the electronic copies of four of the studies on the benefits of rail we advocate, and Gisborne District Council has produced called “The socio-economic & environmental loss of rail for the Gisborne District” -2012 and we strongly endorse this study report.

      6-249607-Socio-economic_&_environmental_impacts_of_loss_of_rail_-on May_2012

      We now want all Government agencies to have a copy so distribute anywhere as they need to be mentioned to Government and others as evidence for our cal to restore the Gisborne Napier- Wellington rail service again.

      * 6-249607-Socio-economic_&_environmental_impacts_of_loss_of_rail_-on May_2012 (2) *BERL Report November/Dec 2012.
      *”The value of rail in NZ produced 2016 by national and kept hidden and released by Labour Minister of transport Phil Twyford Feb 2018. (Plus press release promising regional rail.) (Twyford) then kiwi rail press cover of rail study.
      *Bolland report produced for Ministry of Transport 2010 but kept hidden by National and never released. Shows rail saved NZ lots of money and without rail how much a year it costs us.

      Your response to our call is requested

      • Ad 6.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:38 am

        The electric wire catenary system is only ever going to be partial – it will never replace the need for a diesel fleet, because it is never going to stretch all the way from Whangarei to Bluff to Nightcaps to Whanganui – or indeed to Gisborne.

        If Twyford gets a really good case from NZTA and Kiwirail to replace the entire fleet to a new carbon efficient system, that is good for the country. On all sorts of policy dimensions.

        The rebuilt of the old electric trains only buys them a decade of future operation if they are lucky. That buys them a bit of time.

        There is a good case to replace the entire rail engine system, rip out the electric system completely, and have a major national mode that needs neither electricity generation nor petroleum as its main energy base. Nothing like a good strong innovation case for a further massive step-change in rail.

        • RedLogix 6.2.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 12:14 pm

          The rebuilt of the old electric trains only buys them a decade of future operation if they are lucky.

          The EF class is around 32 years old, but it can be considered mid-life with a decent electrical overhaul. The fantastic old DFB’s and DX’s date back to the 60’s and 70’s and mechanically are still trucking along fine.

          Ah yes there is a tiny little bit of unreconstructed railfan in me 🙂

    • xanthe 6.3
      31 October 2018 at 10:17 am

      I am interested in any information on the use of regenerative braking on central north island electric locos gooogle seems not to be my friend today (ie i havent found the right question yet) any links anyone on this subject.

      • cleangreen 6.3.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:13 am

        xanthe

        Our electric locomotives are traction regenerative I believe.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_EF_class_locomotive

        “The locomotives are supplied electricity from 25 kV AC overhead lines. These lines draw electricity from New Zealand’s national grid at four locations along the electrified section: Bunnythorpe, Tangiwai, Taumarunui, and Hamilton. The locomotives are fitted with regenerative braking as well as regular air brakes, so the traction motors can be turned into generators when the locomotive is coasting downhill and feed electricity back into the overhead lines and the national grid.”

        https://www.connectorsupplier.com/regenerative-braking-systems-rail-applications/

        “Key global locomotive manufacturers such as GE, EMD, and Vossloh have embraced the notion of the hybrid diesel locomotive while Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, and Kawasaki have committed to the electrical systems approach with their offerings. All of these manufacturers have commercialized vehicles and systems which are now finding their way onto the global stage”.

        http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=150711

        • xanthe 6.3.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 11:27 am

          thanks cleangreen, i had found the wikipedia claim that they “feed electricity back into the overhead lines and the national grid.” and so I have always believed, but so far I cannot find any confirmation of this claim or technical details which concerns me given that power is supplied as 25Kv 50hz. of course as they are being given an electrical upgrade in 2018 achieving this is very do-able but I would like to be confident that is is and will be done.

    • Antoine 6.4
      31 October 2018 at 11:33 am

      Here is a link for Ad’s story:
      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/10/government-scraps-national-s-plan-for-kiwirail-diesel-trains.html

      Refers specifically to trains between Hamilton and Palmy. Seems sensible although I am curious about the cost/benefit overall.

      A.

      • Ad 6.4.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:39 am

        It’s always the benefit horizons that bedevil rail investment compared to road.

        • xanthe 6.4.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 11:51 am

          and objectives,
          a solution that will return maximum return to investors/shareholders may well be different to one that provides best cost benefit to users/public

          so the question becomes who do they take their advice from.

          • Ad 6.4.1.1.1
            31 October 2018 at 12:16 pm

            Since rail is a publicly owned system the investment framework for it is through the NLTP. That’s where it gets reconciled however imperfectly. Next NLTP version will be smoother.

            • Antoine 6.4.1.1.1.1
              31 October 2018 at 12:49 pm

              “however imperfectly” – i.e. driven by the preferred transport mode of the Government of the day

              A.

        • Antoine 6.4.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 12:07 pm

          >It’s always the benefit horizons that bedevil rail investment compared to road.

          Are you saying that rail doesn’t typically tend to stand up over a standard length CBA (20-30 yrs) but pays off over a longer term (Say 50 yrs), and that this holds in this particular case too?

          A.

          • Ad 6.4.1.2.1
            31 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

            This particular business case hasn’t been released to the public yet.

            But generally yes that’s always been the tenor of the arguments.

            • Antoine 6.4.1.2.1.1
              31 October 2018 at 12:16 pm

              Should be some way of factoring it in through e.g. terminal value adjustments (though perhaps hard to quantify).

              A.

              • cleangreen …
                31 October 2018 at 1:19 pm

                Interesting that the NZTA was assuming top ‘principal position as transport advisor to Government on transport” but “NZTA is only a road controlling authority” (RTA).

                Ministry of transport (MoT) is the “key principal advisor to Government” for all forms of transport” – not NZTA!!!!!!

                So Labour/NZF need to amend this anomaly and fund equally Ministry of Transport (MoT) as they do NZTA in future.

                https://www.transport.govt.nz/about/

                Quote;

                About the Ministry of Transport
                Last updated on: 14/08/2018

                The Ministry of Transport is the government’s principal transport adviser. The majority of our work is in providing policy advice and support to Ministers.

                Through our advice we aim to:

                improve the overall performance of the transport system
                improve the performance of transport Crown entities
                achieve better value for money for the government from its investment in the transport system.
                We help the government give effect to its policy by supporting the development of legislation, regulations and rules. We also manage and account for funds invested in transport.

                The Ministry represents New Zealand’s interests internationally, particularly in aviation and maritime.

                We work with Crown entities
                We assist the government in its relationship with the transport Crown entities to ensure they are effectively governed, and are accountable for their performance and monitoring arrangements for transport sector Crown entities.

                Visit the Transport Sector Functions page for more information

                We work with local government authorities
                Local government authorities own, maintain and develop New Zealand’s local road network and perform important regulatory functions. Regional councils (and unitary authorities) are required to develop regional land transport strategies that guide the decision-making of local councils. In the Auckland region, the Auckland Transport carries out these functions. Some local authorities own seaports and airports, or share ownership with the Crown.

                • Antoine …
                  31 October 2018 at 1:37 pm

                  > So Labour/NZF need to amend this anomaly and fund equally Ministry of Transport (MoT) as they do NZTA in future.

                  Sorry but you have no idea. NZTA needs billions of dollars per year to fund the country’s land transport network. MOT is just a few bureaucrats – bums on seats.

                  A.

                  • cleangreen …
                    31 October 2018 at 2:08 pm

                    Antoine;

                    You have no idea ‘why NZTA needs billions’ !!!!

                    https://trid.trb.org/view/1125281
                    Quantifying Incremental Pavement Damage Caused by Overweight Trucks

                    Quote

                    Significant increases in commercial truck loadings across the Saskatchewan road network have resulted in accelerated damage to the provincial highway system. This accelerated damage has decreased the expected performance life of many of these roads and also increased maintenance and rehabilitation requirements and costs.

                    Unquote;

                    Antoine; – It is because truck freight who are responsible wholly for totally wrecking our roads and causing the road maintenance to accelerate to such high levels now we need to change road freight companies the full cost of their damages now.

                    You need to learn the real truth here.

                    Here is an important study paper from October 11, 2018 by Cody Januszko, at the Carnegie Mellon University Department of Engineering and Public Policy Transporting freight by road accounts for around seven percent of the world’s total energy-related carbon dioxide emissions. Recognizing that heavy road freight is particularly hard to decarbonize, says the paper here.

                    But the report also claims roads are subsidised by us for truck freight so we need to level the playing field now in favour of “encouraging more rail freight services in all our exporting regions now and not delay the move back to rail freight any more.

                    QUOTE; “In the U.S., railroads own their own tracks, so they have to build their own infrastructure,” says Vaishnav, an assistant research professor in EPP. “Trucking uses public infrastructure, but does not bear the full cost of the damage heavy trucks do to roads and other infrastructure and indeed to the environment.”

                    Clearly NZTA must not be used to make rail studies up as they are principally geared to funding truck freight activities for private companies some which are foreign owned. Stop subsidising the trucks.

                • Ad …
                  31 October 2018 at 1:45 pm

                  MoT is just a speedbump barely registering in Wellington to NZTAs actual funding and execution.

                  Would be better if they were reformed into a new proper transportation system regulator.

                  • cleangreen …
                    31 October 2018 at 2:17 pm

                    100% Ad.

                    And replace Steven Joyce’s well placed “tarmac lovers” sitting still inside the NZTA at the same time please.

      • WeTheBleeple 6.4.2
        31 October 2018 at 2:27 pm

        I’m with Fred Eaglesmith on this one

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd34Ioye5v4

    • patricia bremner 6.5
      31 October 2018 at 12:41 pm

      Another good decision. Keep them coming Phil. Such a pleasure to see integrated planning involving communities.

    • Adrian 6.6
      31 October 2018 at 1:20 pm

      Hydrogen for power is a complete waste of electricity, it takes far, far more electricity to make enough hydrogen to achieve the desired outcome.

      • Dukeofurl 6.6.1
        31 October 2018 at 2:52 pm

        yes Hydrogen is a detour off the highway to reducing carbon.

        The easiest/cheapest way to ‘make’ the hydrogen is from natural gas- they hide that fact with waffle as ‘only a backup method’ or CO2 sequestration – is if they would pay for that.

    • Stuart Munro 6.7
      31 October 2018 at 1:31 pm

      It wouldn’t hurt to be looking seriously at highspeed rail.

      The energy equation is not much different to conventional, but the speed allows it to compete favourably with carbon heavy domestic air services.

      TransTasman traffic could probably run on something similar to the Busan Shimonoseki ferries, again with substantial carbon savings.

      These things might take years to scope out – better to begin that sooner than later.

      Hydrogen is a bit like fusion – a wonderful tech with no working prototypes. If we were determined to embrace the new, maglev at least has working prototypes.

  8. Bearded Git 8
    31 October 2018 at 9:57 am

    This is interesting. The UK has had enough of Facebook etc not paying taxes and has gone it alone with a digital services tax, albeit not very tough.

    Interesting thing here is that it breaks all the normal tax rules because it is based on turnover not profit and the tax authorities will make other assumptions as to company structure rather than rely on what it is being told by Facebook etc.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/29/uk-digital-services-tax-budget-facebook-google-amazon

    Labour in the UK has called the tax a pittance….but it is a start and once in place can be upped. The Yanks have been blocking a tax for years.

    The digital people are screaming. Music to my ears. Come on Jacinda lets do it.

    • patricia bremner 8.1
      31 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

      Yes.. tax these monoliths.

    • Dukeofurl 8.2
      31 October 2018 at 2:48 pm

      GST is based on turnover !

      Where did you get the idea it wasnt, as its plain and simple.

      What they will do is base the tech tax on turnover like VAT but without any deductions for the tax on goods supplied.

      • Bearded Git 8.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 8:30 pm

        Sorry I wasn’t thinking about GST which is actually a tax added to turnover not part of it. But you can see the point of the digital services post I hope?

        BTW I’m a qualified accountant (lapsed).

  9. marty mars 9
    31 October 2018 at 10:00 am

    I think the map we use has a lot to do with some euro western feelings of superiority – like they’re better than everyone else or they are the sum total of what’s gone before – you know, the white superiority stuff.

    “As most of us know, the world map we grew up with isn’t exactly the most accurate vision of the world. Currently, the Mercator projection—which was created by Flemish cartographer Gerardus Mercator in 1569—is the standard map projection. Though we’ve known for quite some time that this projection significantly distorts the size of landmasses, for nearly 450 years nothing better has become the standard.

    More than just a cartography error, many critics have said that the Mercator projection is a visual representation of Eurocentricity and historic colonialism, as Africa and South America appear much smaller than they actually are.”

    https://mymodernmet.com/world-map-accuracy/

  10. marty mars 10
    31 October 2018 at 11:28 am

    You are complicit Parker as are all of labour.

    “Parker described it as a “momentous” day for New Zealand and world trade, and said the CPTPP had become even more vital now the World Trade Organisation was in such a parlous state.

    The CPTPP represented 13 per cent of the worlds GDP, and its member countries had a combined annual gdp of just under $15 trillion New Zealand dollars.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108238830/cptpp-trade-deal-over-the-line-after-final-nations-ratify-pact

    • Ad 10.1
      31 October 2018 at 11:44 am

      One of our strongest-supported pieces of legislation in a while.

      If the WTO starts failing by end of next year, such agreements may be the closest to rule-based trade that small states like us can get.

      The structural entropy is accelerating.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1
        31 October 2018 at 11:53 am

        One of our strongest-supported pieces of legislation in a while.

        Supported by who?

        I still haven’t seen majority support for it from the people. Only the idiots in government and business.

        • Ad 10.1.1.1
          31 October 2018 at 1:46 pm

          Parliament.
          Obviously.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.1
            31 October 2018 at 2:44 pm

            We’re supposedly a democracy which would indicate that it needs the support of the people.

            Does it have that support?

            • Ad 10.1.1.1.1.1
              31 October 2018 at 3:01 pm

              Yes. Through every single party’s votes in the New Zealand Parliament except the Greens. For the formation and passage of legislation, that is the very definition of democracy.

              So yes, by an overwhelming democratic majority, it has that support.

            • Ad 10.1.1.1.1.2
              31 October 2018 at 3:25 pm

              Legislation is passed through the democratic system called parliament.

              It sailed through.

              It had that democratic support by the truckload.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                31 October 2018 at 3:27 pm

                See, that’s not actually a democracy. That’s a dictatorship no different from the feudal system.

                • Ad …
                  31 October 2018 at 3:38 pm

                  You just pop down to parliament and give them a jolly good piece of your mind. Chant around it and see if it levitates for you.

                  You know how many anarcho-syndicalists does it take to change a lightbulb?

                  They just stand on a chair, hold the lightbulb up, and wait for the whole world revolve around them.

                  • McFlock …
                    31 October 2018 at 3:45 pm

                    that’s a good ‘un

                  • JohnSelway …
                    31 October 2018 at 3:59 pm

                    That’s awesome!

                    I’ve got one for you…

                    Q:How many kids with ADHD does it take to change a lightbulb?
                    A: “Do you wanna go bike riding?!”

                    (Maybe will have offended someone with that but I’m sure the lord will forgive me)

        • Dukeofurl 10.1.1.2
          31 October 2018 at 2:16 pm

          “I still haven’t seen majority support for it from the people.”

          Thats because a minority of a minority party – Greens- are opposed and cant sleep at night over the possibility of an investor sueing the government. They are sleepless I tell you.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2
      31 October 2018 at 11:46 am

      So, we’re all about to get poorer – goodo.

      • cleangreen 10.2.1
        31 October 2018 at 1:04 pm

        100% Draco.

        Labour sold us down the river as National did so they were both in bed to strip us of our Sovereignty.

        Damn them all.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11
    31 October 2018 at 11:40 am

    Defense firms see only hundreds of new U.S. jobs from Saudi mega deal

    Every time President Donald Trump mentions the $110 billion arms deal he negotiated with Saudi Arabia last year, he quickly follows up, saying “It’s 500,000 jobs.”

    But if he means new U.S. defense jobs, an internal document seen by Reuters from Lockheed Martin forecasts fewer than 1,000 positions would be created by the defense contractor, which could potentially deliver around $28 billion of goods in the deal.

    Lockheed instead predicts the deal could create nearly 10,000 new jobs in Saudi Arabia, while keeping up to 18,000 existing U.S. workers busy if the whole package comes together – an outcome experts say is unlikely.

    A person familiar with Raytheon’s planning said if the Saudi order were executed it could help to sustain about 10,000 U.S. jobs, but the number of new jobs created would be a small percentage of that figure.

    So, it’s really just another deal to boost the profits for the bludging shareholders of the military-industrial complex.

  12. Morrissey 12
    31 October 2018 at 11:45 am

    Kathryn Ryan, who’s incapable of recognizing bullshit
    when it’s rubbed in her face, needs to talk to more children.
    Nine to Noon, RNZ National, Wednesday 31 October 2018, 11:32 a.m.

    During a discussion with Young Adult fiction author Melanie Rodriga, the host affected her most serious voice and intoned….

    KATHRYN RYAN: [talking very slowly, enunciating her words very carefully to show how serious she is] Children’s BS detectors are so acute, aren’t they. More so than adults….

    Melanie Rodriga, who seemed to be a bright person, was too polite to acknowledge the clanging, jangling irony of that statement.

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/02/bradley-manning-show-trial-begins-in.html

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/dame-ann-leslie-arrrrgggh.html

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/is-it-possible-national-radio-is.html

    • marty mars 12.1
      31 October 2018 at 11:54 am

      So that first link – you cut and paste from here onto your blog and then post back here to direct people to your blog where a copy of the conversation from here is. Did enjoy seeing some old and long gone quality commenters there ta.

      • Morrissey 12.1.1
        31 October 2018 at 12:11 pm

        Thanks, Marty. That blog of mine I started many years ago, but only put two items on it and forgot about it until late last year. I’m paranoid about sites closing down and everything getting lost, as happened with the old Planet Rugby chat site, and the willful destruction of Google Groups. I have been trying to harvest everything I’ve done online since 2003.

        Often I’ll link straight to The Standard or wherever I first posted, but since so much of my stuff is now on the blog, it’s often more convenient.

  13. adam 13
    31 October 2018 at 11:52 am

    The poor wee devotees of liberalism will struggle with this one. It shows up just how far down the rabbit hole the fubar ideology has gone. Plus funny as.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE&ab_channel=thejuicemedia

    • SaveNZ 13.1
      31 October 2018 at 2:44 pm

      +1 Adam – some of the best videos there are on foreign policy. Probably explains why our defence force now is expected to defend foreign and domestic corporations rather defend NZ people and sovereignty. Thanks neoliberalism.

  14. mauī 14
    31 October 2018 at 11:59 am

    “A movement, calling for ‘Blexit’ or exit of blacks from the Democratic party has been launched,..”

    Not surprising really after Hillary’s latest unpleasant comment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75NDKOxR0g

  15. Dukeofurl 15
    31 October 2018 at 2:19 pm

    meanwhile Pence turns up in Pittsburgh with a ‘fake rabbi’ to offer prayers – In the name of Jesus – I kid you not!

    “As he began his prayer, it became immediately clear that the rabbi, Loren Jacobs of Congregation Shema Yisrael in suburban Detroit, would not be considered a Jew by any of the four major denominations of Judaism. In his prayer, he mentioned the “saving power” of the Lord and concluded, “In the name of Jesus, amen.”

    Rabbi Jacobs believes that Jesus is the Messiah, a conviction that is theologically incompatible with Judaism.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/us/mike-pence-rabbi-jacobs.html

    Doesnt sound like there will be a jewish exodus from the democrats next week.

  16. cleangreen 16
    31 October 2018 at 2:21 pm

    Clintons are all now confirmed as stool pigeons for the Global elite of course. They are still funded by George Soros the convicted criminal and attend “the Bilderberg Group” secret meetings.

  17. eco maori 17
    1 November 2018 at 7:48 am

    Kia ora The Am Show Its good that thousands of new houses built are on the market in Auckland .
    Is it a coincidence that there was a housing crisis in America Britain Canada NZ Banks love houses a safe bet they can most time’s claw there money back if thing go wrong Banks caused it with there lending policy’s I see one made a cool 2 billion .
    Becoming a Republic do we need more political fighting for the head of states job do we want to have politics like they have in America at the minute I think not.
    Maori and Pacific people won’t go for that we have other reason to if it aint broke don’t fix it one will end up with a big mess.
    There you go all shonkys m8 are making billions banks retailers a lot of business profits at least % 30 higher after 9 years of national then bill decided to kick our youth.
    Ka kite ano

  18. eco maori 18
    1 November 2018 at 8:36 am

    I believe there is a God and Heaven we are living in Heaven now its just people don’t treat Te Papatuanuku / Mother Earth like a Heavenly thing and respect her and her creatures .
    Men are chasing money and destroying our planet in 3 small life times we will only have % 10 of the wild creatures left this is why Eco Maori pushes for more wahine to become world leaders as MAN IS TURNING OUR HEAVEN INTO HELL we need wahine to kick there ASSES out and back to reality.
    If one keeps shitting in one own back yard you end up in the SHIT not much logic needed to work that out.
    The Maori view is that we are related to all the creatures and what do you know hundreds of years later scientist prove that thought to be fact the matrix genealogy .
    The Maori view on our connection with Papatuanuku and her creatures is a common view of most indigenous cultures around Papatuanuku .
    The neo liberals capitalist are running this heaven into hell all for there greed of prophet over everything else in the world change COMPANY Constitutional needed to have clauses in them to put our earth and decedents well being before profit .
    Its a crying shame what man is doing to the world at the minute.
    Humanity has wiped out 60% of mammals, birds, fish and reptiles since 1970, leading the world’s foremost experts to warn that the annihilation of wildlife is now an emergency that threatens civilisation.
    The new estimate of the massacre of wildlife is made in a major report produced by WWF and involving 59 scientists from across the globe. It finds that the vast and growing consumption of food and resources by the global population is destroying the web of life, billions of years in the making, upon which human society ultimately depends for clean air, water and everything else. Ana to kai ka kite ano link below

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds

  19. eco maori 19
    1 November 2018 at 8:46 am

    Some music for my other post its cool that some are getting the big picture we need all the common people to stand up and fight with there votes if we all vote the pollies will BUCKLE and start making laws that benefit all creatures.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ad4MH7fMLs

  20. eco maori 20
    1 November 2018 at 9:05 am

    Man does not own the Earth we are just caretakers for the next generations wake up
    History shows that, when presented with unpalatable evidence of the undesirable effects of our decisions, we either bury our collective heads in the sand, or order the problems we face in terms of their tractability. Where they are judged to be intractable, as in this instance, they are relegated for later attention. We cannot continue to delude ourselves that the transition to near-zero fossil fuel use is possible without global mandation.

    The overriding message located between the lines of the IPCC report is that we must lead our lives within the planet’s means. In all conscience, we are currently locked into a process that will inevitably result in passing on a dying planet to our children and their successors. Should this not be at the absolute top of the international debating agenda? Ka kite ano

  22. eco maori 22
    1 November 2018 at 10:58 am

    The go oil party are big cheats taking minority people right to Democracy right to vote with corrupt laws. The federally-recognized Spirit Lake Tribe filed a complaint Tuesday against North Dakota Secretary of State Alvin Jaeger that reads: “Jaeger’s implementation of the residential address requirement has imposed severe—sometimes insurmountable—burdens on the right to vote for many voters on reservations.”
    Every time the secretary of state’s Alvin Jaeger is asked a question that indicates deceit on his and his office behalf he showed Eco Maori he was lying the eyes are A direct view into ones true intentions the mouth can lie but the eyes reveal those LIES .
    Kia kaha wahine and fight for the right of our childrens future. link is below ka kite ano

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/31/politics/native-american-tribe-suing-north-dakota-voter-id/index.html

  23. eco maori 23
    1 November 2018 at 11:26 am

    Mana Wahine Barba Streisand has a new Album Just released Kia kaha.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrj87Q-4Yk

  24. eco maori 24
    1 November 2018 at 12:11 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNld-AHw-Wg

  25. eco maori 25
    1 November 2018 at 1:02 pm

    Just five countries hold 70% of the world’s remaining untouched wilderness areas and urgent international action is needed to protect them, according to new research.The UQ and WCS study, published in the journal Nature, identifies Australia, the US, Brazil, Russia and Canada as the five countries that hold the vast majority of the world’s remaining wilderness. Link is below Ka kite ano.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/31/five-countries-hold-70-of-worlds-last-wildernesses-map-reveals

  26. eco maori 26
    1 November 2018 at 6:45 pm

    Kia ora Newshub The banks have been shutting down banks in rural places leaving people with banking services .I see shonky have his bull line in the herald to he made the problem and is throwing up a smokescreen he should go play golf with trump.
    There you go those Saudi sisters have lost there lives it doesn’t look good for the Saudis they will never become a major place for all people to visit if they carry on treating wahine and the lower class people like dirt .
    That’s cool the goverment has a new housing development plan’s for Porirua . I say the Law commission or whom ever is advocating law changes should worry more about the common poor person not getting a fair go from New Zealand laws 6 times the system has underarm bowled Eco Maori cheated me
    Carbon based fuel is going to be a thing of the past the faster the better the fuel company’s should invest in green energy that’s the future or else you are pushing up hill.
    No comment on the police pay I seen two following me at the supermarket with uniform I gave them a ki ora they could not even look at me I blasted the Rock radio music and drove off respectfully on Tuesday.
    Ka kite ano

  27. eco maori 27
    1 November 2018 at 7:22 pm

    Ki ora James & Storm from The Crowd Goes Wild
    The coach has confidences in his players who are playing Japan test team the Japan team have there Kiwi connection coaching staff .
    That was a good game of T20 cricket for the Kiwis and Pakistan.
    Hope the white ferns have a good run at there T20 cricket matches kia kaha ladys.
    The wife loves her horrors not me comedy science and doco’s .
    Josh rafting with the Aussies nice tat one should know that if they are encouraging you to sit some ware its a set up.
    Money makes the soccer ball go around Qutar wining the football world cup.
    Ka kite ano .

  28. eco maori 28
    1 November 2018 at 7:32 pm

    Maori TV Te Kaea I got side tracked helping my offspring .Kia kaha ka kite ano
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgGr_n4fgyI

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