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Open mike 31/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 31st, 2021 - 145 comments
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145 comments on “Open mike 31/10/2021 ”

  1. Just an IMHO to start a Sunday morning:

    The next 2 to 5 years could (will) prove to be tumultuous ones for the globe and New Zealand: a series of crises will wrack the very foundations of civilised society (and of all life) – the on-going pandemic, a long-overdue economic meltdown and the worst of them all, climate change on an escalating scale.

    No country will deal with all three successfully, and that includes this isolated little ‘hermit kingdom,’ but I believe that at least, Jacinda Ardern and this Labour government will attempt to govern for all NZers when the shit hits the fan.

    Like all governments ours will attempt to do too little, too late; that’s just the nature of the political beast. Radical change, really radical change is needed, but such change would not be supported by the good old ‘general public’ until the crises bite them on their collective arses, and then they’ll complaint ‘the government should have done something.

    But at least I think Labour will try to act in the interests of all NZers. Andrew Beecroft, speaking on NatRadio the other morning said Michael Joseph Savage described the creation of the welfare state as ‘applied Christianity.’ The Natz opposition of the time labelled it ‘applied lunacy,’ and that just about sums up the difference between the two general political philosophies; the left will generally act in the interests of the collective good, the right for ‘individual freedoms.’ The ‘dancing Cossacks,’ the mother of all budgets, tax cuts for the rich are just some examples of the sectional interests of the right.

    Things are going to go pretty pear-shaped in the near future (and don’t hold your breath over COP-26) and it won’t be pleasant, but with the Natz and Act in power it would have been an absolute fucking disaster.

    A good practical example of this is the Three Waters legislation. We have a water crisis in this country which can’t be fixed by piecemeal uncoordinated changes by indebted local councils. Labour and Nania recognise this and have proposed major reforms (in the interests of all NZers). The rights’ response: government theft of our assets, which is a pretty meaningless thing to say. Remember Nick Smith and ‘wadeable rivers?’ Fw Luxon said the Natz would repeal any changes Labour makes – then what? Wait until we have little drinkable water left in this country which only the rich can afford?

    The future looks dark indeed, but with a slightly left leaning, kind government, things might just be bearable in this country. At least, that is what I hope!

    • garibaldi 1.1

      Nice try TV, it would be great if your scenario plays out.
      I fear that minimal, middle-of-the-road compromises just ain't gonna cut it for dealing with what is about to confront our neolib society on so many fronts. We are in for an unpredictable and probably unprecedented harsh ride.

    • Treetop 1.2

      Climate change, economic instability and living with an endemic virus, just one of these requires a huge budget and sensible leadership.

      I would also add providing affordable housing and having a health system which meets the needs of the population. People need to learn how to become more self sufficient as well.

  2. Ad 2

    This feels like the day we hit 200 cases per day.

    • chris T 2.1

      It is bound to happen at some stage.

    • DS 2.2

      Perhaps. But the outbreak has to peak at some point, and there are only so many unvaccinated muppets in Auckland for this disease to burn through.

      (Auckland does not have general community transmission. This is an outbreak running through a very specific subset of society, one that seems to only have minor leakage into the rest of Auckland).

      • chris T 2.2.1

        I realise I am a complete outlyer. And am probably talking pants, but have never been able to understand why instead of shutting down the entire country to shield the vulnerable who might get it, we aren't doing it the other way round and just shielding the vulnerable and just getting on with shit.

        • Ad 2.2.1.1

          Imagine effectively imprisoning south Auckland into a single massed camp. You're describing Johannesburg.

          We've been as civil and humane as possible by not doing what you propose.

          • chris T 2.2.1.1.1

            You mean rather than imprisoning the entire city of Auckland?

            • Ad 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Indeed I do.

              • chris T

                I just think inconvenience to as fewer people as possible is better than everyone.

                I don't even live in Auckland and am living in relative normality in Welly.

                Just found it odd you would close off a whole city to shield vulnerable people, rather than just shielding the vulnerable.

                Wouldn't be South Auckland btw. It would be those that are older with existing health conditions. The rest just get it and get over it in the vast majority.

                Yeas I realise the odd healthy person has died. They also get hit by trucks and die of cancer

                • DS

                  The vast majority are still affected by a collapse of the Health System. New Zealand has very little ICU capacity.

                  • chris T

                    Would prefer not to get started on a convo' about ICU's and this govt, as will end up banned, but agree. I guess. Better safe than sorry.

                    Wish govts would say stuff straight up though. We need you vaxed to not screw the health system, rather than the touchy feely stuff.

          • DS 2.2.1.1.2

            It's not South Auckland, and hasn't been for some time. The geographical epicentre is West Auckland, and as noted, it's not a matter of general transmission. If it were, there would be far more Pasifika cases.

            • Ad 2.2.1.1.2.1

              Point applies for any sub-area of Auckland.

              • DS

                The point overlooks that we're not taking geography here. There is no area of Auckland that matches the outbreak – Auckland is 11% Maori, not 45-55% Maori, and the places that have more Maori than Pasifika (as this outbreak does) tend to have very few of either. It's the absence of Pacific Island cases that is the real clue here.

                You're dealing with a community subset that is not in one place.

        • DS 2.2.1.2

          The disease can screw up younger people too, especially if they're unvaccinated.

          The real problem possibility is that Covid patients would take up so many of NZ's ICU beds that we actually see a collapse of the health system. Good luck getting a bed if you're a (fully vaccinated) survivor of a car crash.

        • weka 2.2.1.3

          "just shielding the vulnerable and just getting on with shit."

          Vulnerable people:

          • Maori
          • Pasifica
          • Elderly
          • People in old people's homes
          • many disabled people who are dependent on caregivers
          • smokers
          • People with asthma (stop and think about all the teachers and nurses with asthma, NZ has a high asthma rate)
          • people with other lung conditions
          • immune compromised and people with low immunity, including children and people in all the above groups
          • people with illnesses of heart, liver, kidneys
          • I also think people with autoimmune conditions are at risk, but MoH doesn't count them

          Please explain how all those people can be shielded from covid in the community. I’m really curious to hear the details.

          • AB 2.2.1.3.1

            "Shielding the vulnerable" sounds great and oh so principled. But what it would mean in practice is devolving responsibility onto the vulnerable themselves by placing them at such risk that they voluntarily stay home while everyone else gets to gad about (including any non-vulnerable people they might live with). i.e. in practice it means not shielding them at all.

            Truly shielding the vulnerable is actually being their human shield by getting vaccinated and observing public health restrictions like mask-wearing, social-distancing, staying away from crowded places and generally not gadding about. Which is actually what we are doing now.

            So people who advocate" shielding the vulnerable" actually mean un-shielding the vulnerable. Many have a horror or incomprehension of collective responsibility because so many minds have been contaminated by 30 years of neolib obsession with 'personal responsibility'. And tbh I am now getting pretty effed off by the whole scene and the intellectual and moral depravity being spewed out all over the place.

          • miravox 2.2.1.3.2

            Exactly.

            Also vulnerable people:

            • Office workers
            • Supermarket workers
            • MIQ workers
            • Teachers
            • Nurses
            • Doctors
            • Mothers
            • Fathers
            • Siblings
            • etc., etc.

            Its not just nana and gramps heading for the retirement home (and they deserve a full life too) It's dozens of people you come into contact with in all sorts of places.

            also:

            • where do the 'shielded' go? – because they cannot shield in a bedroom in a full house.
            • who will care for them?
            • who does the work (paid/unpaid) that they do?
            • who pays?

            Does the MoH not count the immune-suppressed? I think they include them if they're on certain medications? They're included in the 3rd primary vaccine dose.

            • weka 2.2.1.3.2.1

              Immune compromised yes, auto immune no. There are a bunch of other chronic illnesses also not included. MoH are basically useless on chronic illness unless it’s one of the heart, lung, kidney ones.

              it’s also why the Dr Googles on TS feel entitled to make claims about risk eg almost no-one is at risk from the vaccine. They’re pig ignorant. Afaik the research just hasn’t been done.

              • Bruce

                I've said before here NZ is blessed with world leading Professor Ed Game, part of the team that gave us the cure for hep C a chronic liver disease caused by a virus, his team here tell me the risks of covid far out weigh the risk of the vaccine. Pig ignorant he is not.

              • miravox

                "Immune compromised yes, auto immune no"

                That's interesting. I see these as pretty much the same (because both apply to me), but now you mention it, I can see there might be a few differences.

                • weka

                  I see it as low immunity (compromised), and overactive immune system (auto-immune), but agree it's more complex than that.

                  • phantom snowflake

                    How to make sense of this: Many of those with autoimmune disorders are given medications which suppress their immune systems which leave them 'immunocompromised' and vulnerable to infections including COVID.

        • DS 2.2.2.1

          Calling the unvaccinated muppets is not analogous to arguing for the sterilisation of the disabled. Being unvaccinated is a choice.

          • Grafton Gully 2.2.2.1.1

            So why did you write "unvaccinated muppets" and not "people who choose not to be vaccinated" ? It might further alienate people you want jabbed.

            • DS 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Because if you choose not to be vaccinated, you're a muppet?

              Such people should not be treated as having made a socially acceptable decision.

    • Patricia Bremner 2.3

      With 5000? "freedom'? marchers I think in two to four days Ad.

      There is still a gulf of mistrust in many Rotorua Maori, but this new targeted approach is having success. Although some are resistant they are talking now. They say the new "kindness" leaves them suspicious, as that usually proceeds someone wanting something.

      We are in some cases reaping what we have sown. I hope these fears and resulting mistrust can be overcome before the virus gets into their community. As one lady said, "it will be endless tangihanga." Being angry won't help this. It is sad.

      • DS 2.3.1

        This isn't simply about poverty. Pasifika have solid vaccination rates. Nor is it about anti-Maori racism. Elderly Maori are vaccinated too, as are Maori in Wellington and the South Island.

        There is, unfortunately, something going through younger, upper North Island Maori that makes them vulnerable to such nuttery. The only thing that is being "wanted" here is for these people to save their own lives, and the lives of their elders.

  3. gsays 3

    A wee bit of something to cheer about.

    New Zealand overcome a spirited Wales in the second half to put 50 points on the Welsh at home for the first time.

    Wales lost their talisman leader Alun Wyn Jones, early in the first half, to a troublesome shoulder injury. AB highlights include Beaden Barrett scoring two tries and winning man of the match in his 100th game. Best try was to Seevu Reece after the ball changed hands several times down the left flank.

    Interest turns to the Black Ferns with nine debutants against a very strong England team tomorrow morning.

    • Wales were missing 20 players the AB's were playing the reserves.

    • Ad 3.2

      The ABS and Beauden in particular were like a Harlem Globetrotters tour.

      • Patricia Bremner 3.2.1

        Got to love the spirit of the Welsh. Their singing of their anthem is so stirring and heartfelt. They love their country and their rugby.

        • Treetop 3.2.1.1

          Not even Covid will stop a rugby test match in Wales.

          Anti vaxxer protesters in NZ will not let their view stop them mingling in large numbers either.

  4. Ad 4

    The upcoming Labour Conference remit to change how the leader of the party is selected is given a once-over by Andrea Vance.

    Labour without Jacinda Ardern is unthinkable – but that's just what the party is doing | Stuff.co.nz

    If Ardern could just win us the next one I’d be fine if Roberston took over a few months in from there I prefer him anyway.

    • bwaghorn 4.1

      Given that due due mmp,our election s have basically become a presidential style election, it would be deeply dishonest for labour to win the election with Ardern at the top then quickly change leaders!

      • Ad 4.1.1

        This term she's little more than a health ministry robot.

        A handover after the 2024 budget would be fine.

        • Sabine 4.1.1.1

          Nah, if she had enough, of if her party has enough of her, she can simply not run and be honest. I hear honesty and integrity are such important things in a politician.

    • Sabine 4.2

      So you would be ok if the country gets fooled by Labour into voting for Jacinda again, just for her to resign to spend more time with the family and make way for Robertson.

      Wow. Nevermind the people that in that scenario would have voted for her. To me that would be bordering on fraud on the voting puplic. If she is done with the job, say so, early enough and let Labour run on whom ever they put out. If they are doing such a good job, they should have no issue being voted in again. If no, they did not do as good a job as you might imagine.

      anything to win, ey?

      • weka 4.2.1

        I don't know, the idea that Labour might dump Ardern and replace her with 'neoliberal to my core' GR after the election just made me much more interested in pre-election post writing 😈

      • Ad 4.2.2

        The party is formally signaling how it transitions its leadership. Key did it much better than Clark, Shipley or Bolger.

        Labour is being perfectly open about it. In fact that's why Vance did her cumn about the Conference remit.

        • Sabine 4.2.2.1

          This is not about transitioning leadership,

          this is about pretending to run a candidate for an office that that particular candidate then is not going to hold cause they transition after the win into private life rather then do the job they were elected for.

          If you want people to get even more cynical about Labour and their doodahs that would be the best way to go.

          Vote for Jacinda, Get Grant boy! 2023
          Yeah, nah nah.
          Vote third party, cause the two big ones are insufferable in their contempt of he tangata.

          • Ad 4.2.2.1.1

            No pretending if it's in the open. Simply a mature party discussion.

            • weka 4.2.2.1.1.1

              So Labour would tell voters before the election that Ardern is going to resign after the election and GR would replace her?

              • Sabine

                Oh shhh, this is just a mature discussion of how the public can be fooled/lied/cheated/cajoled/ into ordering one thing and then getting delivered something altogether different, but sadly there will be no right to return, nor will the Labour party accept any complaints from upset voters.

                Vote Labour – It don't matter who runs, It just matters who wins. 2023

        • scotty 4.2.2.2

          "Key did it much better than Clark, Shipley or Bolger."

          really – based on what exactly ?

          • Ad 4.2.2.2.1

            Having a succession plan.

            • bwaghorn 4.2.2.2.1.1

              And national are still paying the price of keys succession plan .

              • Ad

                English lost by not much. Can't plan for an Ardern-superstar.

                • Sabine

                  and you wonder why people stop paying attention and voting.

                  Cynical. Running for PM and then three month in giving it over to the one who would not have won is cheating. Frankly if the Labour Party knows it can't win on the calibre of its staff, than maybe it needs to start hiring better people.

                  Out in the open. Yeah, right Tui.
                  but i will file this under another reason not to vote for this lot.

                  • Ad

                    The cynicism only comes from the Green Party of which you seem so keen to support.

                    The Greens' leader James Shaw has flown to the most important climate conference in a decade, with zero plan for our country. Even though it's the only thing he had any responsibility to do, and he has made a career out of climate change advocacy.

                    The Greens have minimal profile despite the whole of the global MSM are pouring climate change stories out faster than you can speak. It was supposed to be something they could do.

                    The Green's conference is largely held in secret.

                    The Greens currently oppose the water reforms, according to Sage's media release.

                    The Greens haven't even bothered to support light rail in Auckland this week.

                    The Greens are otherwise in charge of nothing, and act like it.

                    And when the government needs them to assist in a progressive agenda, they run like the fucking political weaklings they are.

                    The Greens are bumping along around 6-7%, when they were equal with Act just months ago. Act are now challenging National for leadership. Imagine if the Greens had the competence or courage to challenge Labour like Act has National. Greens simply don't have competent leadership to compete.

                    Instead, the Greens have a very good shot at simply not getting into parliament next time. So it's always amusing to see people like you complain and complain and complain when the only party in parliament that is failing is the Green Party.

                    • KJT

                      I know you don't like the Greens, because they challenge your third way, Blairite world view.

                      However what are the Greens supposed to do, when the media refuse to publish and ignore everything they say or do, while blaring out like a trumpet, every national party "barking at passing cars" press release and every vapid propaganda meme from the twerking fool?

                      Not to mention Labour adopting Green policies. Which may not help the Greens visibility, but are still Green achievements.

                      Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean nothing is happening.

                      Greens don’t have millions to spend on social media propaganda campaigns. Like the current ones from right wing puppets, including the Tax dodgers Union.
                      (Greens only accept funding from individuals, not companies or other organisations).

                    • weka

                      The cynicism only comes from the Green Party of which you seem so keen to support.

                      Based on what, that Sabine criticises this Labour policy? You should see what she says about the Greens.

                    • KJT

                      Meanwhile. Government pledges 50 percent emission reduction by 2030 (msn.com)
                      Not enough, but a start.

                      Wait for the chorus of condemnation from the usual suspects.

                    • bwaghorn

                      KJT I guess Shaw could have loudly said ,fuck going to copout 26 because this country's not doing much other than rearrange the deck cheers with the foolish ets, and countries like india are committed to burning coal for decades , .

                    • Sabine

                      lol, i support the Green? Since when? Because i voted for them many years back in the past? Because i gave some losing greeny a vote because i could not and will not vote for the Labour Quota Woman Jacinda Ardern? Good grief. That is just now pathetic.

                      Honey, as it stands and as i have stated before, i will neither vote L, N, G. There is not enough money and love in the world that would compel me to rubberstamp anyone of these overpaid and rather useless muppets.

                      So please. Take a step back.

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    I don't hear that being said by anyone but you Sabine.

                    But then you have ruled out all parties except Act as far as I can see. So you would say that.

                    I think Jacinda Ardern has more integrity than that. Just because you don't like her and the Government doesn't give you the right to say untrue things. You constantly look for a stick to beat them with.

                    "Cheating/ Fraud" Get over your self. It has not happened it will not happen. Parties change their rules quite regularly.

                    With people like you, damned if they do alter rules and damned if they don't.

                    You are building bridges for non-existent rivers!!

    • Patricia Bremner 4.3

      I think Jacinda and Grant are a great team, as they have agreed goals for NZ. Bit by bit they are changing the levers.

      No one is challenging Jacinda Ardern. This meme (Jacinda will retire) has appeared in right wing comments lately. Shades of utter desperation. They have gone from "anyone but JC" to "JA needs to leave as Luxton could compete with Robertson" imo. devil

  5. Ad 5

    Auckland dams have hit 96% full which is a good setup for summer.

  6. Herodotus 6

    Q&A today

    1st impression – Get Judge Andrew Breecroft to me a minister – He has more passion and would have greater urgency into fixing the problems that Labour has so often promised to do. He would be action other than just words we hear.

    Our minister of Health failed at the end of his interview with his dodging from "The way we manage this virus is keeping people safe," well allowing a 2000 group activity a few weeks ago expand to 5000. Is that the way we are now managing this.

    FFS Andrew Little can he not make more light weight excuses for any senior government ministers from visiting Auckland. "There are restrictions in place into getting into and out of Auckland", and then "its about not looking like swanning in and out and our life carries on..", are you guys that superficial ?? Perhaps you don't want to hear and see what you would face should senior govt minister would be confronted with reality.

    • aj 6.1

      Beecroft was very, very good. yes

    • Anne 6.2

      You do like to misrepresent Labour Govt. ministers at every opportunity don't you. Never mind the context, just so long as you can deride and sneer through a false lens.

      Andrew Little was asked a question along the lines… why doesn't Jacinda Ardern and her ministers visit Auckland? It was a mischievous question designed to create an impression that the don't care about Auckland.

      First:

      The moment they started gallivanting in and out of Auckland the screams from Collins and that pipsqueak, Seymour would reach a crescendo… how dare they come and go as they please while the rest of us are not allowed in or out without special exemptions. One rule for them and another for the rest of us.

      Second:

      Jacinda Ardern and her senior ministers have a duty to remain in Wellington while the country is going through one of the the most serious crisis in our history. They must be on tap 24/7 to speak with the experts etc., and be able to make instant decisions as emergencies arise.

      They are the ones confronting reality – not the likes of Herodotus and Co. Their colleagues in Auckland are working their guts out keeping them informed and assisting Aucklanders wherever they can. They don't need to come here to know what is going on.

      What's more, I don't want them to. Neither do most other reasonable people. They have more than enough to do in Wellington trying to look after the whole country in unprecedented times.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1

        yes Agree Anne, like rumours of Jacinda leaving just stirring to cause anger and uncertainty. What alternatives do they offer 'Tax cuts" lol been there done that Did nothing for 90% of NZ.

        • Patricia 2 6.2.1.1

          A so-called journalist writes an opinion piece claiming that Jacinda might be moving on and immediately there are messages here from agitated people who think that opinion is now fact. Bad enough reading the local neighbourhood pages and seeing all the misinformation and abuse spewing out there – always optimistic that there was more intelligence on this site. Fake news is fake news ; we should recognise it for what it is and give it no time or oxygen.

      • higherstandard 6.2.2

        "Jacinda Ardern and her senior ministers have a duty to remain in Wellington while the country is going through one of the the most serious crisis in our history. They must be on tap 24/7 to speak with the experts etc., and be able to make instant decisions as emergencies arise."

        Ardern has been pottering all over during October ……. Hawkes Bay, Poverty Bay, Lakes district. that being said can't see the point of her travelling to Auckland it's not as if she can do anything useful here.

        • Anne 6.2.2.1

          From memory she spent about a week in the East Coast region. They were well behind the ball game and needed a booster which she was able to provide. That was a useful exercise and she was never that far from Wellington had an emergency arisen. As you say, there's nothing she can do here in Auckland that is not already happening.

      • Ad 6.2.3

        Agree.

        It's Ardern and key leadership that are holding this country together. Keeping that leadership safe and functioning is our highest national security risk.

      • Pete 6.2.4

        Herald has "Heather Du Plessis-Allan: Jacinda Ardern must visit Auckland."

        Following in the headline is "few in Wellington understand the pain."

        I'd suggest that many in New Zealand don't understand the pain – the pain of Covid hitting and how it has hit around the world. By rights we should have had many hundreds of thousands of cases and uncomfortably more than ten thousand deaths.

        We're largely inured to the reality of how it is and has been globally. We don't know how lucky we are and we're sure as hell ain't going to stop whingeing and making out that our lot is worse than anywhere else.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.4.1

          yes At least we made it through smiley

        • Anne 6.2.4.2

          And note: it is advocates of right-wing neoliberal philosophy – of which HDPA is a member- who are doing all the whingeing and moaning. It never ceases to amaze me these selfish, self-centred pseudo journos are still spreading their lies and innuendo without any consequences whatsoever.

          If I had my way they would have been banned from all media platforms by now. I guess its just as well I never get my way. 😉

          • Stuart Munro 6.2.4.2.1

            I think Brian Priestly would have agreed with you.

            Media standards are now unimaginably low – the current crop of churnalists are lower than a worm's soul – they make used cars dealers look like saints.

            • Anne 6.2.4.2.1.1

              Thank you for reminding me of Brian Priestly. Now there was a journalist of real stature. He was one of a stack of them who were prominent in the 60s,70s and the 80s – Priestly, Ian Johnston, Ian Templeton to name just three. I've forgotten the names of the others but they really show up the current bunch (with a few exceptions of course) for the cowardly ignoramuses they are.

      • Herodotus 6.2.5

        I quoted Little's response, how is that misrepresenting ?I notice your reply had no reference to Littles response, perhaps you are being selective !!! And his 2 reasons for not visiting Auckland were shallow at best. But I am sure for you either of these 2 excuses are fully justified.

        "They are the ones confronting reality – not the likes of Herodotus and Co." Funny as I live in Auckland, I am experiencing & confronting reality.

        "Their colleagues in Auckland are working their guts out keeping them informed and assisting Aucklanders wherever they can. They don't need to come here to know what is going on." Well that is not true – Go to food banks and those community assistance groups there are great people doing this with no sight or assistance of any Ak MP's But some of us are able to give and still get attacked for making observations from those like you sitting firing darts

        • Patricia 2 6.2.5.1

          Why do food banks and social services need first hand assistance from MPs and their teams ? Great for photo opportunities – yes – of but practical assistance ? There has been generous extra emergency food funding in Auckland and I've had no problems getting nutritious good sized food parcels delivered to clients in need. Food banks and social services prepare regular statistical / info reports which are sent on to all stakeholders / local MPs etc.

          • Herodotus 6.2.5.1.1

            We are fast approaching Christmas – And from my experience this time of year results in increased needs that are not there during the rest of the year. These are met to some degree and give a ray of sunshine how communities support those in need e.g. Community Christmas lunch/dinner, Sourcing & distribution of Christmas food, providing a moment of enjoyment and presents for the children etc will these be an option this year with Covid (Last year there was no restrictions) ?

            This time of year there is an increase in people seeking help with their mental welfare, and that this need will be larger than ever (Many who help out are already themselves under stress due to their working in Health and Education)?

            By being there you can view stress of helpers/those in need, see hardship, see food stocks or lack of. Just get a feel of how things are, that are unable to be expressed by a phone call, a email, info reports etc.

          • Sabine 6.2.5.1.2

            Maybe they can be shamed into finally accepting that people are doing it hard. I know its hard to understand on a 6 figure income but people are doing it hard.

            Never mind, next year in April the Labour Party will again very generously trickle a few pennies down on the deserving poor.

        • Patricia Bremner 6.2.5.2

          Anne, Lol We are allowed to "stew" and wish them "gone" thoughdevil

        • Patricia Bremner 6.2.5.3

          Herodotus, Do you know who supplied the money for the foodbanks? Or is that "being selective". NZ knows how hard this has been, and support all the assistance the Government has supplied. They have done this through familiar agencies to avoid "Oh you are just vote buying". I have not seen anyone querying any of that support. Andrew Little is not a front person, he is not glib and always tries to answer sometimes loaded questions. He is an honest man, journalists thought they had all disappeared.

          • Herodotus 6.2.5.3.1

            The comment was a response from MY experience towards what I have seen and heard to Anne and her "Never mind the context, just so long as you can deride and sneer through a false lens." and "..working their guts out keeping them informed and assisting Aucklanders wherever they can."

            And why do you ask "who supplied the money for the foodbanks" in some cases I do know where some of the food and other goods have come from: great anonymous individuals and companies.

            "Andrew Little is not a front person.." Still we can only go by his answers and in this case both were poor.

        • Anne 6.2.5.4

          I quoted Little's response, how is that misrepresenting ?I notice your reply had no reference to Littles response, perhaps you are being selective !!! And his 2 reasons for not visiting Auckland were shallow at best. But I am sure for you either of these 2 excuses are fully justified.

          Below is what you said @ 6

          FFS Andrew Little can he not make more light weight excuses for any senior government ministers from visiting Auckland. "There are restrictions in place into getting into and out of Auckland", and then "its about not looking like swanning in and out and our life carries on..", are you guys that superficial ? (My Bold)

          That was a disingenuous response to the Little interview. I answered your claims of his supposed "light weight excuses" and "superficial" response more than adequately @ 6.2.

          I do not believe you are a genuine commenter on this site. Your frequent snide references – often couched in the same kind of disingenuous wording as this latest example – lead me to suspect you are really a troll. Your next step will no doubt be to claim victimhood at my expense. 🙄

          • Herodotus 6.2.5.4.1

            So these 2 reasons for not travelling to Auckland; One that has been countlessly been solved by many travellers flying here to Auckland in level 3, and the other isn't a reason precluding travel that of possible perception of "swanning ". Your excuses for Littles answers do not IMO cover it, and are totally inadequate. Should you consider me a troll then perhaps a little depth in your response could test that out, that could be asking too much to defend the indefensible as to why traveling to Auckland ins unable to happen.

            Some could read your comments that if commentators don't follow your view of the world then they are not welcome.
            So you cover yourself regarding me claiming victim hood then you come back with this “As a senior citizen who lives in Auckland and has been very adversely affected by the lockdown” Who are you to say that to , are you that privileged that we all should be on our knees towards you, you are not the only one that this lockdown has had an effect on,perhaps you should consider others ??

        • Anne 6.2.5.5

          Go to food banks and those community assistance groups there are great people doing this with no sight or assistance of any Ak MP's But some of us are able to give and still get attacked for making observations form those like you sitting firing darts.

          Spare me the pathos please. Who is throwing the darts? YOU ARE.

          How do you know the AK Labour MPs are not out there working their guts out for their affected constituents? Just because they are not swanning around in front of TV cameras like some others we know doesn't mean they are not flat tack. Some of those especially Sth Auckland way must be in a state of exhaustion by now.

          As for your offensive comment about "sitting firing darts". As a senior citizen who lives in Auckland and has been very adversely affected by the lockdown, I take deep offence at such a comment. It only serves to confirm my observations about you.

  7. Sacha 7

    The political purpose behind anti-vax protests – click on text in tweet to see uncropped version.

    • miravox 7.1

      They just pretend it's not about politics.

    • weka 7.2

      I would have thought that was obvious. And lots of political action is similar.

      • Sabine 7.2.1

        All of political action is like that. That is what being an activist generally means. Make a noise, create good trouble and hopefully bring about change.

    • Sacha 7.3

      More on the anti-authority opportunists glomming onto vaccination for now.

  8. aj 8

    Why would anyone be surprised…

    • Patricia Bremner 8.1

      Wow!! What a picture of selfish people. All pushing money, trying to cloak it as 1. religion 2. hospitality 3. food production. Bugger Health. Self Interest first by them. imo.

      • Cooper oil 8.1.1

        Did they post the next shot where they joined hands and it looked likea crooked cross?

    • Ad 8.2

      Anything that splits the old farming lobby apart is good for this country right now.

      Their stupidity aligning with Antivaxxers and Destiny Church will push Big Ag towards government.

      Government will need them with both carbon and water reforms.

      • Graeme 8.2.1

        Big Ag aren't that keen on the Groundswell mob, especially the two big co-ops.

        And lots of questions about where the money is coming from.

        • Ad 8.2.1.1

          If the water reforms are to have a shot, the farmer lobby needs to be actively smashed.Those who quibble with the legislation proposed (and I've been one) will figure the colossal risk to our country of failing.

      • Patricia Bremner 8.2.2

        Yes there is such a thing as "too far from reality".

      • Maurice 8.2.3

        As long as it is remembered that everything cities rely upon moves along roads and highways with Farmers along both sides and that cities are surrounded by farmers. The very water people rely upon comes from the country and crosses farms … Their cows already piss in this ……

    • millsy 8.3

      The (un)Holy Trinity threatening this country.

      Evangelical Christianity, big money capitalism, and profit-driven agriculture.

      Slash wages, impose the Bible and pollute our rivers.

      This is what we are up against.

      • Ad 8.3.1

        NZ evangelical Christianity has good media training but near-zero actual or institutional power.

        This government has intervened into our version of capitalism more than at any other time outside of a major war.

        How they deal to the dairy industry is fully in play now.

  9. miravox 9

    This article by Florence Kerr really resonated with me. In their own words –

    Covid-19 vaccination: How mistrust shadows the roll-out in a time of crisis

    At her cousin’s home in the Hamilton suburb of Enderley, the least vaccinated suburb in Hamilton, Rose recounts her first interaction with the state. It is the starting point of her mistrust in government, and the relationship hasn't improved since.She feels the state and its agencies have treated her like a criminal, despite having no convictions.

    It’s these interactions throughout her life that have informed Rose’s decision not to get the Covid-19 vaccine. Many Māori feel the same way…

    I always get stopped by the police even if I’m just walking and minding my business. I never feel listened to at the doctors, and I’m made to feel bad when I have to get assistance from WINZ [Work and Income],” Rose says.

    "So yeah I have no criminal record, I work when I can, but I have a newborn, and sometimes I need help, but it’s never good enough for them. You know sis, it’s like I was never good enough until now when they need me to do something, and I’m like what the f….”

    Enderley – this is where I grew up. This is where I saw our neighbours go into State care after their parents (Pākehā mother and Māori father, and my mother Pākehā) disappeared on us. After a couple of weeks of us tearing up the neighbourhood, the authorities turned up to round up our families – 6 of us and 5 of them). By pure luck my Dad had just cycled home from work, that Saturday afternoon. The authorities asked “who claims these children?” so Dad claimed us. There was no-one to claim our friends.

    Both their parents are now dead and there are only two of their children left now – the first gone at just 18 – booze, drugs, accidents. I caught up with the youngest a couple of years ago at my sister’s funeral (booze, drugs, delayed and denied healthcare). This neighbour's kid has done ok (was fostered to a good family, rather than going to a social welfare unit like her siblings), as have half of my family.

    There should be no expectation that the lives we had are going to be inevitably repeated – unless of course, your main interactions are with people in positions of power whose main objective seems to be to keep you down. What it does mean is that any interaction you have with government departments and health and education workers is complicated and requires a lot of compliance for us and a lot of ‘should’ and ‘will’ from them. The alternative to compliance is some form of punishment, there is no autonomy.

    Typically, being brown is a signifier for authorities to start with the ‘comply’ rather than the ‘ask’ in any interaction. I’ve not had such a hard time as the neighbours, I’m so white (whiter even than my siblings) my nickname was Milky (or fly-spot due to the freckles). OTOH I was asked once, before I got a smack around the face and a spew of abuse, if I was Māori, because our address and our situation was what all ‘good’ Pākehā think of as a Māori “lifestyle” (liberal intelligentsia who have no belief that a white person from the precariat might succeed at university, I’m looking at you). I’ve escaped all that now and have a cynical (on my part), but relatively good engagement with health and education workers because they have no clue about my background.

    When Māori vaccination rates, or naming the communities most affected by this outbreak, come up in conversation in my polite society; and all the intellectual discussions abound, I generally go with the line that it’s simply a big middle-finger to authority – and a well-deserved f*ck you! to politicians, doctors, and educators at that. Florence Kerr's article highlights this view. My family members who didn’t escape also give the one-finger salute to them, as well as swearing by their alternative wellness strategies.

    This article is why I’m so frustrated with the government not going with the spirit of the health reforms. How easy would it have been to have someone from Māori Health Authority interim board to be standing up with Dr Bloomfield and the politicians at the beginning of the Delta outbreak and vaccination drive?

    I don’t know if playing catch-up with the brilliant work that’s happening on the ground is enough at this stage, but it’s the best hope we’ve got. All strength to the workers doing this job and to the people they care about. As for the police, the government, teachers and healthcare authorities, playing nice from time to time does not make for structural change in attitudes and perceptions. The rest of us should recognise that before having a go at people in the (politely-named) high risk groups who "don't understand / don't care."

    They understand all right. Allowing them some future to care about is a whole other matter.

    • Whispering Kate 9.1

      Very thought provoking Mirovox. I can see where you are coming from and understand why these oppressed people are middle-fingering authority. It is just sad that they may get very sick for not having the vaccination. The roll-out needed to be done by their own people and yes, they should have been represented alongside Dr Bloomfield right from the beginning.

      Also, we now need somebody/organisation to get alongside the mentally unwell who also do not trust authority but I fear the mental health industry would be the last representation these people need – they don't trust anybody. How do we vaccinate these unfortunate people who live on the margins of society.

      • bwaghorn 9.1.1

        It's called 'cutting your nose off to spite your face '

        • miravox 9.1.1.1

          Nah – it's cutting off their nose to spite your face, at worst.

          I consider it more akin to workers go on strike for a living wage.

      • miravox 9.1.2

        Thanks, and yes, I agree with your comment about getting alongside the mentally unwell. No doubt there is some commonalities in the two groups.

    • Macro 9.2

      This article is why I’m so frustrated with the government not going with the spirit of the health reforms. How easy would it have been to have someone from Māori Health Authority interim board to be standing up with Dr Bloomfield and the politicians at the beginning of the Delta outbreak and vaccination drive?

      I don’t know if playing catch-up with the brilliant work that’s happening on the ground is enough at this stage, but it’s the best hope we’ve got. All strength to the workers doing this job and to the people they care about.

      yes

      Thank you for sharing your experience, very pertinent to understanding the way "hesitancy" by many.

    • Patricia Bremner 9.3

      Thank you Mirovax. A good post, so much more explanatory than my effortyes

      • Anne 9.3.1

        Yes, I would like to add my thanks to Miravox too. If only more people took time out to understand the reasons behind the mistrust – some of which has been handed down through generations of maltreatment at the hands of officialdom.

  10. chris T 10

    End of life choice bill kicking in at the end of the week.

    About time.

    Could probably do with an article on it, not that I am good enough at the old English to write it meself 🙂

  11. Sanctuary 11

    The police have completly balls up their handling off the anti-vax protests. Despite strong public support for a hard line of enforcement they opted for a softly softly light hand and for supine inaction when confronted with bad faith. They've sent a clear message you can get away with breaching health orders with impunity – indeed, if you are a leader of Christian cult you can even breach your bail conditions with impunity. As a result lawless mobs have grown in size from 1000 to 2000 to 5000.

    I think the time has come for for velvet glove to come off and iron fist of the state to start showing these anti-vaxxers what teeth the state actually has, before these groups morph into nascent and then actual domestic terrorist groups with an agenda of directly challenging the governments authority.

    The police needs to start detaining the organisers unders section 71A of the health act and where appropriate domestic agencies charged with counter-terrorism need to step up surveillance, with appropriate arrests made if evidence of planning or inciting attacks is found. Dismantle these groups now. They've made plain they'll operate with zero good faith to any promises they make to law enforcement agencies (who in their right mind negotiates with fanatics assuming they'll behave in good faith anyway? The police have been naive idiots). Direct FB to ban their pages – FB will comply if given a direct request from the NZ Police. Get serious about shutting down these troublemakers and COVID Quislings.

    Personally, if Sue Grey and Brian and Hannah Tamaki and all the rest 20-30 or so organisers spend to next six months held incommunicado at the Queens pleasure I won’t shed a single tear.

    • Anne 11.1

      And here is the latest:

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454606/vaccination-centre-vandalised-staff-threatened

      They choose a Centre for South Pacific people which suggests to me racism might also be involved.

      If that doesn't get the police into hard action I don't know what will.

      • Sanctuary 11.1.1

        Well thats the problem isn't it – these groups are unappeasable, a bewildering alliance of quacks, grifters, wellness crackpots, conspiracy theorists, fascists and extreme libertarians united by only their narcissism at being really, really put out at beingask to comply with a basic piece of public health or suffer consequences.

        They are fanatics who see themselves on some sort of crusade. They only option is to crush them out of hand with arrests, detentions and the like.

        • Anne 11.1.1.1

          They only option is to crush them out of hand with arrests, detentions and the like.

          Been my sentiment for a long time now. For God's sake do it government and police. Stop pussy footing around with them!

      • joe90 11.1.2

        Barbara the vege shop lady told me she's been verbally harassed by anti-vaxxers.

        Well heeled ladies of of a particular wellness persuasion traveling in a premium marque entered her shop and inquired about her vaccination status. When she enlightened them they took to her, telling her that not only was she a danger to them, because shedding, apparently, but that she was going to die along with every other vaccinated person.

        Barbara's 70 in the shade and would have given them a proper serve when she ever so politely asked them to F right O. Arseholes still upset her, though.

        • Anne 11.1.2.1

          She should have taken their car reg. no. and passed it on to the police. I have a pad and pen in my glove box for that purpose should I see anti-vaxxers harassing and abusing people.

          • weka 11.1.2.1.1

            you want them reported to the police for what exactly?

            • joe90 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Scum thought it was okay to harass a septuagenarian in her workplace.

              Should she wait until they turn up outside her home?

              • weka

                Can you not tell where the boundaries are?

                Anne was referring to your story of people in a shop having a political argument. That's different than someone being threatened and needing security. You can demonise and other the range of people fucked off about covid response, and treat them as one big lot of scum, and they will just get stronger.

                And, if you want people you disagree with arrested for arguing politics, then you can't object when that happens to you or people you agree with. Do you want democracy or not? Time for the left to deal with its authoritarian shit before this gets out of hand.

            • Anne 11.1.2.1.1.2

              Read Joe90 @11.1.2.

              If you think a group of women (in this case) have the right to enter a retail premise with the express purpose of seeking out the retailer's vaccination status and then harassing and threatening them because of that status… then I am astonished.

              It is becoming increasingly concerning that many of these anti vaxxers seem to think they have the right to accost anyone they like whenever they like and harass and intimidate them as much as they like. They need to be caught and arrested as an example to anyone else who thinks it is okay to behave in such a way.

              • weka

                If you think a group of women (in this case) have the right to enter a retail premise with the express purpose of seeking out the retailer's vaccination status and then harassing and threatening them because of that status… then I am astonished.

                So you want people to be arrested for this. On what charge?

                And will you then be ok if other protestors are arrested? How about climate protestors?

                • weka

                  if the shop owner feels intimidated by the actions of those women, then tresspass them.

                  There's nothing in Joe's story to suggest that they were harassing beyond being rude and dickheads.

                  • Anne

                    Maybe you need to spend a bit of time in Auckland weka. The police's relative leniency against the hard-core anti-vaxxers has emboldened them to take actions that are heading towards dangerous levels. Only yesterday a South Pacific vaccination Medical Centre in Auckland had its front windows smashed in.

                    I find it amusing that some people here (and elsewhere) pleaded with the pro -vaccine citizens ( the vast majority of the population) to "go easy" on the anti-vaxxers etc. It was assumed we would be the ones who would become aggressive.

                    The truth has turned out to be the opposite. It is the crazies embedded in the anti-vax movement who are committing the offences and it is only going to get worse unless the police start taking a hard line on them.

                    • weka

                      Ok, so you want NZ to be a police state, arresting people on political grounds without any legal basis. Got it.

                    • Sabine

                      Maybe the Police should actually get vaccinated first before we send them into houses to arrest 'un-cooperative' citizens.

    • weka 11.2

      what's the connection specifically with terrorism?

      I'm fine with arresting people breaching the orders (not wearing masks, not social distancing). Cracking down on protesting is a really bad idea, the ability to protest is intrinsic to democracy.

  12. pat 12

    '

    "But New Zealand cannot get there with domestic reductions alone. In fact, a full two-thirds will have to be purchased from other countries at a cost of about a billion dollars a year.

    Shaw said the preference was to work with developing countries in the Asia Pacific region to, for example, plant trees, but as the decision was only made by Cabinet in past week all of the details were still to come"

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454610/government-pledges-50-percent-emission-reduction-by-2030

    Not sure if Shaw is able to sleep at night.

    • weka 12.1

      Fuck Labour. And Labour voters for that matter.

      • weka 12.1.1

        I'll qualify that. Fuck the people who didn't vote Green Party when that would have been a relatively easy thing to do (i.e. lots of Labour voters). Some blame Shaw, but it's the Labour Cabinet making these decisions, not Shaw. There's absolutely no excuse unless one is a climate denialist, or that we are not responsble for later generations and life on earth.

        • miravox 12.1.1.1

          Pretty much agree with that. I'm thinking next time though, there's a party that will pay attention to climate change as well as to the plight of the Precariat in ways that The Greens have not been able to. That party is Te Paati Māori (noting here so problematic views from a particular person on the executive). I'll be watching with interest how the polling is going in the lead-up to the next election before I decide on my non-Labour party vote, if I go that way.

          • weka 12.1.1.1.1

            I will consider shifting my vote to te Mp as well, but totally dependent on whether that will actually help in terms of MP numbers to hold Labour to account.

            Am thinking it's time to rark up the Greens. But ultimately we need extra-parliamentary movements and I think everyone is just distracted with covid (and unlike others, I don't think covid is going away and that we are in for some difficult times next year in NZ, we haven't yet had to deal with the death and disability side like the rest of the world has).

          • weka 12.1.1.1.2

            there's a party that will pay attention to climate change as well as to the plight of the Precariat in ways that The Greens have not been able to.

            I think Marama Davidson is doing good work. But yes, this is a long standing problem, and what fucks me off is that Labour voters who aren't part of the precariat could have been voting Green and we would have better climate and end poverty policies being enacted. I just think the whole left wing 'we want action' on those things is hot air.

  13. joe90 13

    Be warned, budding Bruce Banners may be afoot.

  14. Anne 14

    R.I.P. Dame Catherine Tizard.

    A lady in every sense of the word. Her intelligence, sense of humour and compassion for others will not be forgotten.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454628/dame-catherine-tizard-dies-aged-90

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