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Open mike 31/07/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 31st, 2013 - 109 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

109 comments on “Open mike 31/07/2013 ”

  1. BLiP 1

    Okay, I think I’ve captured the last flurry of John Key’s “brain fades”, any suggestions for additions or emendments more than welcome. To prevent annoyance at another screed interrupting the flow of the thread, I’ve just included those newly apparent and which which relate specifically to his GCSB portfolio.

    critics of the GCSB legislation, including the Law Society, the Human Rights Commission, and the Privacy Commissioner, are all uninformed

    we do not spy on journalists

    I wasn’t aware that my own Chief of Staff was instructing Parliamentary Services to hand over information concerning journalist Andrea Vance

    National Ltd™ has never tried to impinge on the role of the media

    I had nothing to do with information on a journalist being handed over to the inquiry into the leaking of the GCSB report

    I was not opposed to the NZ Defence Force, Police and SIS making a presentation at the public submissions on the GCSB legislation

    • Bob 1.1

      “I was not opposed to the NZ Defence Force, Police and SIS making a presentation at the public submissions on the GCSB legislation” all that the link you provided here shows is why the GCSB bill should pass, and show Labour up as hypocritical, it doesn’t show a brain fade as far as I can see.

      • bad12 1.1.1

        No, what it shows is a LIAR, listen carefully to what the Slippery little Shyster says as He reply’s to the Green Party’s Russell Norman in question 2 of yesterdays Parliamentary Question Time,

        This is completely add odds with what He is saying to the media, Parliamentary Services are where the Prime Minister points the finger for the obligatory television and media soundbites, according to the used car salesman that has turned the office of Prime Minister into nothing but the tin shack to be found on any backstreet used car lot in this country, ”He is disappointed in Parliamentary Services for having released the phone records”,

        During the ducking and diving during Parliaments question time where the Prime Minister has to be more cautious we got a series of oblique answers from Him in question 2 and the following supplementary’s which also included this,

        ”Oh i don’t know if my Chief of Staff asked Parliamentary Services for the phone records, but if He did i apologize for that”, (not a direct quote but words to that effect),

        Doesn’t know??? what a load of utter BS, apologizes in the Parliament for something He doesn’t know happened??? god He is blessed that most National Party supporters seem to all extents and purposes to have come down with a bad dose of ‘functional idiocy’ and so so lucky that all these ‘functional idiots’ only watch the six oclock news and not the Parliaments TV,

        But then Slippery is well aware of that it’s why He knows He can get away with treating the ‘functional idiots’ to more of the idiocy…

    • muzza 1.2

      Nice, BLiP!

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    Bradley Manning found guilty of at least 17 charges, but not guilty of most serious one of aiding the enemy. Greenwald describes it as a “sliver of justice.”

    Now faces sentencing, potentially over one century in jail.

    Remember, this is what you get in the US for disclosing war crimes committed by your government.

    • BLiP 2.1

      In New Zealand you just get your professional reputation trashed.

      • Murray Olsen 2.1.1

        Give it time. The US will suggest to Key that investigative journalism needs to be criminalised, if they haven’t already.

    • James 2.2

      He broke the law – he needs to be held to account. Simple as that really.

      It was his choice.

      Whilst there is a lot I do not agree with with the US – There have been no charges laid of war crimes (as far as I am aware).

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        I would have no problem with your position if it was the case that the US was applying the law equally to everybody.

        But as you say, those US officers who committed the war crimes revealed have got away scott free.

        So has Intelligence Director Clapper, who lied directly to Congress (a felony).

      • Jackal 2.2.2

        He broke the law to inform people that the US army was repeatedly breaking the law. Clearly the persecution of Bradley Manning while those who’ve committed far greater crimes and are still free is a complete travesty of justice. It appears that the entire United States system is highly corrupted, especially its army and officials.

      • Bob 2.2.3

        I agree with your sentiment, however backing it up by saying that “There have been no charges laid of war crimes (as far as I am aware).” is a little naive. What about Guantanamo Bay? Just because charges haven’t been laid doesn’t mean laws haven’t been broken.

      • Vinscreen Viper 2.2.4

        “He broke the law – he needs to be held to account. Simple as that really.”

        Well it’s that simple at a simpleton’s level.

        To the more educated, thoughtful and adult of us it raises the old problem of our duty of obedience to laws that run counter to our conscience or beliefs.

      • Murray Olsen 2.2.5

        One reason that no war crimes charges have been laid is that the US and A doesn’t recognise that its personnel are subject to any international jurisdiction. You could make an argument that Manning followed international law, as used at the Nuremberg Trials, when he made these crimes public. We need more like him. We need a flood of Mannings, to the extent that no soldier will kill a civilian or torture an enemy because they are too worried that some of their colleagues may have a conscience.

  3. Pasupial 3

    Last day to make a submission to the Constitutional Advisory Panel. It doesn’t have to be a full screed – you can just dash off responses (before 5pm, online only now) to any of the focal questions at: http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/How-to-make-a-Submission

  4. Jenny 4

    Sir Geoffrey this is a difficult interview for me to do, in a way. Because I am a journalist and I want the the right to speak to whoever I want, whenever I want, without anyone knowing about that, within the boundarys of the law and without defaming Anyone.

    So I want you to tell people who don’t understand journalism and its significance, how important this is to a democracy, that journalists are able to conduct the kind of work journalists do without people snooping on them.

    John Campbell Campbell live interviews Geoffrey Palmer about the GCSB Bill.

    View the whole interview Here

    • Te Reo Putake 4.1

      Cheers, Jenny, that’s an amazing interview! Palmer, of all the ex-PM’s, has the best understanding of what this attack on the fourth estate means for our democracy. He seems to be barely able to hold back his contempt for those who organised the release of Vance’s phone records and who apparently don’t give a fig for liberty.

      • vto 4.1.1

        Yes agreed it was a fantastic interview. You could see his concern for the situation. His use of the description “dictator” on several occasions was telling. Anybody glancing at that interview would have been hauled in and listening intently, such was the gravity of the situation, Palmer’s manner, and his dictator comparisons. Palmer also outlined the issue very clearly – it was very good.

        Maybe Slippery’s slope has finally arrived.

        It is also very interesting to note the complete and utter absence of this massive and expanding issue on Farrar’s crappy blog today and yesterday.

        Me senses deep rumblings within Wellington and it aint got nothing to do with earthquakes.

        • srylands

          I thought Palmer’s interview was a load of absolute drivel. I could not care less who listened to my phone conversations. It is a storm in a very small tea cup for those of us who have real things to worry about.

          OK the Parliamentary Service should not have handed over the phone records. Oops sorry about that. We will be more careful next time.
          It was bloody Russel Norman that bleated about the need for an inquiry. Then when the inquiry happens he bleats about how it was done.

          I made it about half way through the Palmer interview before switching back to Mahler and enjoying the motorway view as I cruised into Wellington. Much better.

          • Arfamo

            All good then. No need for you to take any further interest in the issue. Just leave it to those who do. Catch ya later.

          • Colonial Viper

            “I could not care less who listened to my phone conversations. ”

            God, you’re a dickhead. Even if this were true, I don’t think that the people you talk to on the phone would agree. Especially if you tell them at the start of every conversation with you that it may be recorded and that you’ve happily waived their right to privacy for them.

          • Rosetinted

            When you make your first post for the day it is polite to announce yourself as “I will be your RWNJ for the day”.

          • Rosie

            Hey srylands, here’s a health and safety announcement for you. Next time you’re on the motorway, anywhere, can you please keep your eyes on the road and other traffic instead of the motorway view. I know the Wellington harbour is real pretty but you don’t want to be causing an accident. Would that be a real enough thing for you to worry about?

            PS. You better not be that f wit a while back who I had to overtake at speed to reach safety because he was veering all over the lanes as he was looking left out his passenger window and filming the view on his phone while driving along. He ended up on the shoulder and almost went into a barrier.

        • srylands

          “It is also very interesting to note the complete and utter absence of this massive and expanding issue on Farrar’s crappy blog today and yesterday.”

          Really? Farrar blogged this under the heading “A Parliamentary Service stuff-up”

          “This is major breach of trust, and they will have to work hard to recover that. Also as bad is giving the Speaker incorrect information.”


          • Colonial Viper

            PMs office gave the order.

          • Arfamo

            Well yes but he only posted that at 10 am this morning. He probably thought he couldn’t avoid it any longer as everyone else has scooped him to death, so he’d better blame the bureaucrats as quickly as possible. It’s sad, really.

            • srylands

              Yes well he is on vacation in south western USA. Cut the guy some slack.

              • Arfamo

                Fair enough. Good point. Why should we cut him slack though? He’s blaming the bureaucrats. WTF does he know about what happened? It’s all pretty murky really.

              • Te Reo Putake

                So he had his breakfast 6 hours before the rest of us did, had all that time to check the interwebs, emails from Nat HQ etc., yet only had time to knock out one piece of diversionary fluff on what looks like the most significant political event of the year so far. Plenty of time for posts about the beach, the wildlife, the cool jetski he got to ride though.

      • Pasupial 4.1.2

        Palmer has his problems, but he is a serious devotee of the law and the reason we have a Bill of Rights (ineffective though it may presently be). Ta for the link Jenny.

    • Te Reo Putake 4.2

      Palmer will be on Radio NZ shortly, should be interesting.

  5. ansell was just on tvnz breakfast..it was a hoot..!



    “….and in fact ..as you will see ..squint a bit..and he is looking more and more like david farrar..

    ..(it’s kinda spooky..!..)..”

    phillip ure..

  6. vto 6

    Our police plant evidence and call themselves honourable

    Our defence force spies on the media

    Our government breaks its own laws without consequence

    Our Prime Minister is a bare-faced liar

    Our government ministers attack private citizens

    Our defence force threatens to murder journalists


    Face up to it NZ. We are just the same as every other piece of shit place in the world. In fact, each of those realities above is exactly what Mugabe does in Zimbabwe.

    • Pasupial 6.1

      Not exactly

      • vto 6.1.1

        which one does not happen in zim?

        • Pasupial

          They actually do the murder there

          • vto

            Would our defence force have acted on its threat to kill journalist John Stephenson?

            • Pasupial

              I got the impression that it was one specific officer mouthing off with those threats (from RNZ via Scoop):

              “A freelance journalist is calling on the Defence Force to investigate his complaint that a senior serving officer made death threats against him.
              “Jon Stephenson says that, to his knowledge, the Defence Force took no further action despite being informed that a police investigation had taken place.”

              Our military differs in that ours’ are a group of volunteers who have sworn an oath to the crown, whereas Zimbabwe presses children into the service of a tyrannical President whose country has been excluded from the Commonwealth.

              Apologies for any confusion from excessive brevity of previous replies, but I was feeding the Basupial with one hand, and typing with the other. Not the easiest of tasks!

              • Colonial Viper

                It’s a fucking sad day when you have to develop a justification for “why we are not Zimbabwe (yet)”.

              • vto

                Heh, know what that’s like – interferes with what little brain flow there is…

                But I agree with CV in that having to differentiate, in such relatively minor ways, our institutions from those of one of the world’s great despots is pretty telling.

                Further to the point I was making – we aotearoans are notorious for our blasé attitude, our idea that “she’ll be right”, our absolute naivety when it comes human behaviour in our own backyard. We are fools for this attitude and it will be our undoing.

                Those facts outlined above are appalling and when they happen in other parts of the world we tut-tut and pat ourselves on the back that it doesn’t happen here…

                … well It fucking does happen here and there is the proof.

          • bad12

            Pasupial, stick around long enough and…

            • Pasupial

              We’re more like Rhodesia than Zimbabwe. Anyway, I imagine we do have our own bush war on the horizon – all the more reason to engage with whatever political process remains available to us.

    • James 6.2

      As I understand it most of the people spied on were under Labours watch. Do you agree that if this is the case that they should be held to account also? Do we “recall” Helen Clark to face the music also?

      • richard 6.2.1

        If this is the case, then yes. There is absolutely no excuse for this type of behaviour by any government or any government agency.

      • vto 6.2.2

        Dontcha worry James the same blowtorch aims at the lot of ’em

        Clark’s regime similarly attacked base principles of our system for their own political ends and it stunk to high heaven as well.

      • Pascal's bookie 6.2.3

        Sure, but what evidence do you have for your ‘understanding’?

      • Murray Olsen 6.2.4

        I’m quite happy to believe that the spies watched members of Helen Clark’s government and reported back to their masters while she was PM. Who should face the music for that one?

      • vto 6.3.1

        Yes, and we think we are environmentally one of the best too………………

        Those surveys are shite.

        • srylands

          Have you, or your fellow commentators saying we are “corrupt” ever lived in another country? Try living in Indonesia, Spain, Argentina, or even Australia. You have no points of comparison except your imagination. Where did you go on your OE?

          Get out and spend a couple of years travelling and living and working in some other countries and then come back better educated about corruption. Unbelievable.

          • vto

            srylands you are a slippery shyster too. We had this good debate going yesterday and you left and didn’t return. It would be good to continue it as it goes right to very heart of the left/right divide and the labour/capital split.

            Here it is here http://thestandard.org.nz/this-gives-me-heart/#comment-671537 see you there.

            (as to your silly point above, what I have done is none of your business. Who cares about relative corruption? it is not important)

            p.s. I think you are gosman returned in disguise

          • muzza

            Yes have, many.

            Rather have the corruption in your face, through the front door thanks, unlike the attempt at stealth corruption, then try to hide it like it’s not there, such as we have in NZ!

            In NZ, it’s a pretence, a perception of views from people abroad, who absorb the lies the media spins and know, no better than that, just like the foolish srylands types feed on.

            Make no mistake, NZ is being exposed as the sham that it is!

          • amirite

            Yes I have and I can recognise corruption from a mile away. I also know that you’re talking shit.

          • Murray Olsen

            I have lived in other countries. The only difference I see with corruption is the entry price. In some, you can start with $10 and get a cop to forget a ticket. In Aotearoa, you start with $50,000 and get a friendly MP. What does a casino cost? How much does rezoning of a piece of land by your mates on the council cost? I prefer corruption when it’s a bit more democratic, thank you very much.

        • bad12

          Purple and Pink rivers and streams are just so enviromentally the best…

      • Te Reo Putake 6.3.2

        “although I s’pose we could go higher.”

        I would have thought lower is the more likely direction after this week’s revelations.

      • Arfamo 6.3.3

        Re corruption, it’s a question of perception really:


      • richard 6.3.4

        From Transparency International NZ:

        65% of those surveyed thought the level of corruption in New Zealand has increased over the past two years


  7. Ten years on, has the deployment of NZ armed forces to the Solomon Islands achieved anything?

  8. And does the failure of NZ forces in Afghanistan have its roots in little-known Pacific deployments to the Solomons and Timor?

    [lprent: No need to double up. All new identities must pass a moderators scrutiny. It is how we exclude people who are under bans. ]

  9. felix 10

    Peter Dunne on the wireless yesterday said he was super duper concerned when Henry asked for his phone records so he could compare them with Vance’s.

    Why was he concerned? Well, because that’s just wrong as a matter of principle.

    So why did you give him the records he asked for? Oh, because I hadn’t used my phone much in the time period in question so what the fuck do I care.

    What a tool.

    • Lanthanide 10.1

      My question for Peter Dunne, is if he was so concerned about that, how come he’s only tell us this now.

      Shouldn’t he have said “hey, some dodgy stuff went on with this investigation” at the time he was stood down as minister? You know, to distract media attention away from his little stuff up?

      • grumpy 10.1.1

        Bugger the phone records, if this was indeed a “honey trap”, I want to see the photos!

        • felix

          You want to see photos of Peter Dunne doing what exactly?

          mkay then.

        • RedbaronCV

          Modernise Grumpy modernise. The video taken by the cellphone is what you want to see isn’t it?

      • felix 10.1.2

        Good question.

        I would suggest it’s because he only ever does and says exactly what suits his own needs at the time – regardless of any concerns and regardless of any principles.

    • bad12 10.2

      LOLZ and wee Petey ‘the Hairdo’ Dunne knew that anything nefarious between Him and Vance definitely wasn’t conducted via the Parliament’s phone system,

      Among the revelations from Slippery the Prime Minister in the Parliament today that as far as Ministers who had access to the Kitteridge report and those Ministers contact via Parliaments phone system with the Dompost reporter Vance goes,(and that appears to be both ways), there was none,

      Nice to see our Prime Minister happily using phone records barely legally obtained, if legally at all, to defend Himself in the Parliament, when the GCSB Legislation passes this will give Him access to loads and loads of information with which to defend Himself against all perceived threats from both inside and outside of the Parliament…

  10. Rosie 11

    Civilian gold!


    Lots of lols there but this one rings true, as well as the bit about how stuff readers like to be uninformed…

    “Stevens added that Fairfax was also considering moving Stuff’s interactive component onto a separate, stand-alone site just for racist comments”.

  11. Tautoko Viper 12

    Just a thought. If Dotcom is being charged with secondary copyright charges, could John Key be charged with secondary illegal spying charges?

    • Arfamo 12.1

      It’s a novel idea but it probably won’t get past a Court Registrar. Best thing to do is probably just to vote him out in 2014.

  12. vto 13

    $19million and it has only cost this Swann fulla 4 1/2 years inside. Pretty easy work. Watch him now go and dig up the gold bars.

    Crime pays, it seems.

  13. vto 14

    $19million and it has only cost this Swann fulla 4 1/2 years inside. Pretty easy work. Watch him now go and dig up the gold bars.

    Crime pays, it seems.


  14. aerobubble 15

    Fracking is the market response to peak oil. Peak oil being the point at which demand outstrips supply, which ha snow been past. Fracking oil, gas, will create a plateau in the price of oil, until the price then returns to its increasing trend (unless some other market response hit at a new higher price point plateaus the price again). Fracking costs more that normal drilling. And fracking doesn’t always produce the high density energy oil that runs our car fleets. So essentially as China, India, Africa, S.America grow, demand for oil will increase, and the west’s buying power will decline.
    what does this mean for average NZ, well don’t go and buy a fuel guzzling V8, and pray you brought into a home that in the cycle zone for supermarkets and other facilities because you’ll be laughing pocketing the money that would have gone on a vehicle. Yes, the way to get rich in the new economy is to live in the right place and not own a car.

  15. Tim 16

    …… sometimes I wonder…..
    Given today’s question time, and a Proim Minsta’s performance, and the artificial ‘nodding’ from members behind a Dear Leader broadcast on Parly Armint TV [sucking and Gerry bromancing included]
    whether even Pulla Bent and Nikki Kaye, and that daughter/uncle/whatever of Sam from Rakau Rd – the Great Laurie .
    whether they even agree – or whether they wish to push it all to its most violent conclusion.

    When the shit does eventually hit the fan – I imagine they’ll have some serious regrets. Already I’d put money on their ancestors ‘rolling in their graves’
    So far though, hero worship is still in play

  16. Rosetinted 17

    1 hour > 50 mins…
    Last chance for your Constitution Conversation submission – in before 5pm today 31/7.

    Put in something on something anyway. Here are the quizzes put up to quickly check out what you know.
    Get thinking with a quiz on each of five Topics.
    1 The Constitution http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/store/doc/NZC_QuizSheet.doc
    2 The Bill of Rights http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/store/doc/BOR_QuizSheet.doc
    3 The Treaty of Waitangi http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/store/doc/TOW_QuizSheet.doc
    4 Maori Representation http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/store/doc/MOR_QuizSheet.doc
    5 Electoral Matters http://www.ourconstitution.org.nz/store/doc/ELM_QuizSheet.doc

  17. Colonial Viper 18

    I am smelling the scent of enough raw meat for an early election to go into the oven.

  18. bad12 19

    Bradly Manning ‘guilty’ of exposing American soldiers machine-gunning to death innocent children from the safety of a helicopter gunship,

    Obama’s legacy and shame will be measured by every day that Manning spends in a jail cell…

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      Hmmmm, to be technical it was an M230 chain gun with rounds far larger and more powerful than a 50-cal heavy machine gun. In the video you can see the road literally torn up by the munitions.

      • bad12 19.1.1

        My apology’s CV for such illiteracy in my description of the specific instruments that American Soldiers use to murder unarmed non-combatant children with,

        The platform from which these murders, on behalf of the Commander- In -Chief, were carried out was tho a helicopter right…

  19. karol 20

    Excellent coverage of the alternative Auckland Transport plan – the Congestion Free network on Campbell Live tonight. Very imaginative. A mix of rail, buses, ferries, light rail and roads.

    • grumpy 20.1

      Wow! Looks expensive! For the rest of NZ that is…….

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        All the more reason for the South Island to secede…

      • Draco T Bastard 20.1.2

        It’s 40% of the cost of presently planned roads.

        BTW, Auckland has been subsidising the rest of the country for decades – stop whinging that we’re getting some back.

        • Colonial Viper

          BTW, Auckland has been subsidising the rest of the country for decades

          What, by being a massive negative influence on our balance of payments?

    • Paul 20.2

      Good to a story run in depth. Half an hour on the issue.
      Thinking people’s TV. Well done Campbell Live.

  20. The trend in the latest poll leaves no room for confusion.

    Labour below 30% National above 50%.

    Clears things up for some people here.

  21. gobsmacked 22

    Ironically that poll could work in Shearer’s favour. It was taken before the housing announcement on Sunday.

    So if he gets a “bounce” it will now be from a very low number. Logically that doesn’t make sense, but since when was the media reporting of polls about logic?

    Overall nothing has really changed, though. 18 months, zero impact, zero success. He’d be a goner if the caucus ever put the voters before themselves.

    • Paul 22.1

      If there’s a bounce then that’s proof the electorate want to see bolder policy from the Labour Party.
      Concision for LP – roll out more radical policy measures.
      If there’s no bounce, then Shearer must go.
      Whatever happens, it is clear that Labour playing National lite just is not a plausible policy.

  22. Paul 23

    Surely this result means there must be a change in the Labour Party leadership.

  23. bad12 24

    Lolz, check on Roy’s graph where the National Party were after the 2008 election in all those long months heading to the 2011 election,

    Gosh govern alone territory,

    Check on the Roy’s graph after how many months of being in Govern alone territory where did National end up at the 2011 election, governing alone, hardly,

    The bloke is messing with your minds along with all the other pollsters, for today’s funniest tho i just can’t go past Roy…

  24. bad12 25

    By the way, did i miss a Roy joke-poll some place, the last one i seen had the Mana Party with 1% of the vote,

    This latest effort at cracking me up from Roy says Hone’s party has dropped 05% to 1%, nah Roy wouldn’t be that crudely inifficient with the data would He…

    • bad12 25.1

      Nah found it, jeez, Roy had Mana polling at 1.5% in the last one, Lolz that’s another seat for Mana in the house right there,

      Easy to see why that adjustment was made…

  25. lprent 26

    I’m going to fiddle with mobile settings for about half an hour while I transcribe them from the test system to the production system.

    There aren’t usually too many people on mobiles at this time of night

    • lprent 26.1

      Ok the basics are in – just adding graphics. Let me know how it runs. Worked fine on the HTC One V with the current Mogan post

      I’m testing the post with the largest number of comments now on my HTC ~700 odd from earlier in the week on housing. Nope that one really is a fail.

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