Overblown rhetoric and Laura Norder

Written By: - Date published: 10:19 am, November 27th, 2022 - 69 comments
Categories: Christopher Luxon, crime, david seymour, jacinda ardern, labour, law, law and "order", poverty - Tags:

Law and order has been a go to for right wing politicians for ever.

And there has been fertile ground for them to jump up and down and claim that the world is ending because of a couple of terrible incidents in Tamaki Makaurau during the past week.

In both cases the police have efficiently concluded their investigations and arrested the alleged perpetrators and put them before the court.  Which is how things should function.  Let the Justice System work out what to do from here.  This is what civilised societies expect.

Neither of the people arrested were juveniles.  Which is probably just as well. Watching Chris Luxon pivot from boot camp to National’s wrap around policy is better than Labour’s wrap around policy while at the same time yelling out for vengeance could have been too much for him.

I can claim some personal insight into what has happened with the first incident.  I was approximately 200 metres away from the scene of the Glen Eden incident.  Walking out and seeing police with guns was sobering.  The matter is before the court so speculation is dangerous but the sense of testosterone fueled stupidity is strong.

And the initial impression from the second incident is that it was equally as stupid.

This has not stopped some from seeking political advantage.  As an example Sunny Kaushal has been trenchant in his criticism of the Government for some time.  He has been on a one man wrecking ball against the Government ever since he failed to get the New Lynn Labour nomination in 2017.

He then bought the Shakespeare Tavern.  And then complained about the CRL’s effect on Albert Street and sought compensation even though by the time he had purchased the tavern it was clear what the effect of the CRL would be.

And more recently he has taken pot shots at Jacinda Ardern because of robberies and ram raids of dairies.  He has claimed that because the Government had raised taxes on tobacco it would be responsible the next time a worker in a dairy was murdered.  Yes that is what he said.

The murder of the Sandringham dairy worker has caused Kaushal to promise protest action.

“It will be a nationwide protest. Businesses will close their doors for certain period of time and send a strong message that enough is enough. We will also launch a petition to demand the protection of dairy owners,” Kaushal said.

“It will be after the funeral though. Our priority is to support the family and then we will take action.”

He said he was disappointed Jacinda Ardern had not shown up in her electorate since the incident.

“We need action not empathy,” he said.

“She should have mentioned the words she did on March 15 – ‘They are us,’ he said – referring to Ardern’s comments after the March 15 terrorist attacks in 2019.

“We are they,” Kaushal said.

“It shouldn’t matter the number of lives lost, this happened under her watch.”

Kaushal’s criticism of Ardern matches that of David Seymour who also insisted that Ardern should visit a grieving family immediately after the death of their loved one for political advantage.

On the day Seymour made this claim Ardern was visiting the Chatham Island as part of a formal ceremony with Ngāti Mutunga o Wharekauri to sign an Agreement in Principle towards the settlement of their historical Treaty of Waitangi claims.

Weirdly Television New Zealand described the event as the announcement of a grant.  This is Murdochesque in its inaccuracy.

And Ardern has since been in contact with the family and has offered to meet with them at a time of their choosing.

Kerrie Woodham has also jumped on the let’s blame the Government bandwagon and recently said this:

This is entirely on the Government and its softly, softly approach with criminals and lawbreakers.

I am really, really angry this morning. It is utterly needless.  It’s been like watching a car crash in slow motion. Of course this was going to happen. It was simply a matter of time.

And the naysayers say well, what are you going to do about? I’d do exactly what Mark Mitchell has suggested. Ban the gang patches. Don’t allow them to associate together. Get tough on the truants and the parents who allow their kids to truant. Start having consequences for actions.

Throw out the violent, aggressive tenants and the Kainga Ora establishments. Give those rooms to the people on the social housing list. Start having meaningful consequences for actions.

The attacks on Ardern and the Government by Woodham and others have all been undermined by news that the person charged with the Sandringham murder had recently been extradited from Australia.  And he was aged 34.  So boot camps and other assorted tough on crime measures would have basically achieved nothing.

And for Ms Woodham banning gang patches would have had no effect whatsoever.  Truancy may have been a problem but it could be that it was the Australian authorities that should have done something about it.  And there is no evidence that the person charged had ever lived in a Kainga Ora residence.

Murders of dairy workers has regrettably been an occasional event for a long time. And when you see the historical murder levels then it is clear that per head of population the peak was from 1986 to 1993 and has since been trending down, apart from the blip caused by the Christchurch Mosque massacre.

If you want to apportion blame then the toxic consequences of Roger Douglas’s and Ruth Richardson’s policies can be blamed.  The solution will not work over night but essentially it is to repair the damage caused to ordinary families by poverty.  But this will take years.

The Labour Government is moving in the right direction, too slow for some, but things are improving.

The last thing we need is more overblown rhetoric and simplistic solutions to resolve a problem that is decades in the making and will require compassion and generosity to fix.

69 comments on “Overblown rhetoric and Laura Norder ”

  1. Patricia Bremner 1

    Kerre should have to do a public retraction. That is so inaccurate and damaging.

    The damage done by opposition members playing politics is cringeworthy.

    How would boot camps and removal of patches affect the outcome of this tragic event?

    It would not, as the things are not related except in some disinformed brains.

  2. Anne 2

    Superb post mickysavage. Your ability to get down to the nitty gritty is second to none. No wonder the right wingers in the media (and elsewhere) feel the need to 'put you down' at ever opportunity which they have been trying to do for years.

    The most disgusting aspect is the way the Opposition leaders – David Seymour in particular – have politicised the case. His claim that Jacinda Ardern showed she doesn't care about her constituents because she didn't drop everything and come rushing home to her electorate. FFS, she was in the Chathams acknowledging a very important moment in their history. She's the prime minister for God's sake. She has important commitments she cannot just drop.

    To my mind Seymour is nothing but a little puerile p***k who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the treasury benches.

    And Luxon's visit to lay flowers outside the Pink Diary was nothing but a bit of political theatre. He was making the most of the sordid attempts to somehow blame the government and the prime minister in particular.

    A very large pox on both of them!

    • mickysavage 2.1

      Thanks Anne. This particular tactic is so awful and so damaging of people's perceptions of politics. When you strip away commentators commentary of the political implications of what has happened and then concentrate on the human aspect of it the media treatment is awful.

    • Mike the Lefty 2.2

      There is merit in doing and saying things in a more private low-key fashion when one person is murdered in such circumstances. If Jacinda HAD immediately raced to the scene and been shown on nationwide TV then her political foes would have accused of her of using the tragedy for political gain, noting that David Seymour had no scruples about doing the same.

      I am sure that Jacinda would have planned her personal response carefully, as she did in the Christchurch mosque tragedy. That is her style, because as leader of our country the buck stops with her. The others can hop in and out when it suits them.

  3. joe90 3

    Kerrie Woodham has also jumped on the let’s blame the Government bandwagon

    A response to Woodham's finger-pointing.


  4. Reality 4

    From now on, if he wants to be seen as sincere, Luxon will have to be shown on television laying flowers at the site of every murder in New Zealand. It was as cringeworthy as Judith Collins' praying in church.

    The PM did it the right way – getting in touch and offering to meet the family later. She did not choose as Luxon did, to turn a tragedy into a photo opportunity.

    • bwaghorn 4.1

      Yip I'd love someone to ask simple seymour if prime ministers should visit all murders, or is just ones he hopes to politicize for vote gaining purposes

    • AB 4.2

      CEO-man as compassionate saviour. The bringer of true kindness wrapped in the rod of judgement. Dry-retching is in order.

  5. Tiger Mountain 5

    Very well put Micky. Not much more needs to be said really apart from spread these sentiments among others, and…“Get tough on poverty!”

  6. Craig H 6

    As a user of Bexley Reserve, I didn't expect the PM to drop everything and visit the scene of that horrific murder. The police investigated and charged people within 48 hours. We don't need to see the PM in situations like these.

  7. ianmac 7

    Micky "Deported" not "extradited."

    Images of Luxon looking respectful outside the dairy, looks so insincere/cynical.

    So "lucky" that the media was there to record. Remember Judith Collins praying in the church? Authentic???

  8. Anker 8

    Luxon needs to go. End of.

    Are Labour now going to fund gas cannons for dairies? They could have done this previously. Cost wise when you factor in police time, court time, medical treatment time and the impact on peoples lives time, it would probably be more than cost effective.

    Labour have been late to the party on deterrant measures (business owners have talked about a difficult process that it often unsuccessful, to get bollards).

    Homicide rate has come down over the decades (far lower in the 1960s and 70s from what I can see). This has happened at the same time time the % of young men between the ages of 18 – 29 has decreased. They are by far the most responsible for homicides.

  9. Ad 9

    Mickey this is a heartfelt almost tearful piece of writing and well done.

    Sincerely hope that you, your staff and the Glen Eden community are getting through this.

    Like you I deplore the ambulance-chasing cynicism of those piling on with the media in Sandringham.

  10. SPC 10

    Another case of Strine Laura Norder causing Enzed Lauren Forcement extra work.

    Not that Sco Mo's dumber cousin realised it before being misled by radiotalkwind into adopting ambulance chaser mode.

    Why is it that Libs and Nats never have enough teals in their caucus to get rid of stupid.

  11. The social media savaging of Labour over this is intense.

    [I don't expect most will want to read this – but providing the link to prove I'm not making this up]


    There is a very strong "I told you so" element – following on from the feeling that the explosion in ram raids has not been effectively dealt with by the police and, especially, the justice system.

    Also coming out in the editorial in the Herald.


    Given this brutality occurred in the heart of the Prime Minister’s electorate, there’s no surprise that those grieving and angered have turned their outrage on our political leadership.

    Short-term action is needed to mollify scared communities. More police presence is required, especially after frightening crimes to reassure an alarmed populace. Businesses seeking support with security measures must be heeded. Long-term solutions are also needed to work with this generation if we are in some small way to honour the young father who so senselessly lost his life while filling in for an absent shop owner.

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs, Labour need to front-foot this very smartly. It's already a PR nightmare for them. It has the capacity to get worse.

    • observer 11.1

      "I told you so" sums it up: high on emotion, low on information.

      As had been pointed out numerous times (including the OP and thread comments here), the various simplistic "solutions" (or slogans) have little or nothing to do with the known details of the crime.

      At this point obviously we must exercise caution, now that charges have been laid, so we are limited in what we can say publicly. So I won't speculate.

      But for what we do know, I'd recommend reading the police descriptions of what allegedly happened, where it took place, and what is known about the accused. Then compare with the rhetoric. "They" didn't tell us so, at all.

      It sure as hell wasn't a ram raid by a 14 year old truant in a stolen car who would have been stopped by bollards.

      • Belladonna 11.1.1

        Pointing out that this is a PR issue for Labour – regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation.

        If your answer to this is to 'read the details of the crime' – then you've already lost the debate with 98% of the public.

        Soundbites matter. Impressions matter. Public 'opinion' (no matter how misguided you think it is) matters.

        • observer

          Of course it matters. It decides elections. Exhibit A: Trump.

          The rest of us can choose if we're more interested in game commentary or facts.

          History is full of "perceptions" in the moment, and subsequent admissions and adjustments. If we were only led by "perceptions", and never pushed back, we would still have the death penalty.

          • newsense

            I mean it’s a PR nightmare if you let the PR play. There’s a clear attempt immediately by some to politicise this. And the Herald and others are happy to do that. It’s a second crime to use this to service ambition.

            Should the government be investigating crime? Their job is to set policy and provide funds. Should the government be tracking every individual closely? Should they be making decisions on an individual by individual basis? That leads to a very unpleasant society. We should have regular police patrols and presence? Would that really have made any difference in this quiet mostly residential location? Would that really make people feel safer?

            How did those politicians and papers react to this? How’s it different? It wasn’t front page.

            Death of a security guard

            I feel fortunate to have worked in an industry where no one I have heard of has been killed in relation to their work. No one should be. Employers, unions and government should keep workers as safe as possible.

            There’s also a trend towards concern trolling and saying ‘Well, a lot of people are going to be saying this.’ All you can do us acknowledge failings and show the truth. Don’t accept the cynical and ambitious using another’s death.

            There’s anger and a desire for vengeance. But this is natural . It’s not a place associated with danger and is a very friendly looking shop. Hopefully it gives way to restitution and closure and being productive. It’s really not fair.

            It is really not fair.

            And as it for it being bad PR it is part of being in government that you have to deal with the problems of the day. Do what you can. Can’t do anymore than that.

    • Anker 11.2

      Yes people are responding with their feelings rather than rationalizing it by saying well the murder rate is trending down.

    • Jenny are we there yet 11.3

      In the wake of this tragedy the government appear to bc like a rabbit helplessly caught in headlights of an approaching 18 wheeler Kenworth.

      Make no mistake the government has been seriously wounded by the senseless killing of Janak Patel.

      To regain the initiative the government must be seen to be doing something about it.

      No longer can the Labour government coast along on the tremendous world beating success of the government's science based covid response.

      The National Party's "This is a Do Nothing Government' slur can only be defeated with resolute action.

      If Labour want to stay in government, an immediate roll out of legislation and policies and programs to address inequality and crime prevention.

      The more the better.

      As Roger Douglas famously said 'Give your opponents a lot of moving targets.'

  12. Jackel 12

    Has national got nothing to offer other than banging on about the latest outrageous crime?

    • Muttonbird 12.1

      National and ACT are definitely going after the subcontinent vote which is why they've focussed so many of their media resources on this.

  13. RedLogix 13

    While your post Mickey is a good one I think you have missed an the key aspect of these ram raids – that it is mostly children who are committing them.

    Most people understand that it is unprecedented for children to be behaving this way; for them to be so utterly out of control, so willfully beyond all reason or respect. That scares people. They know these children will likely be anti-social and dangerous all of their lives. Most will be functionally illiterate and innumerate. Most will never contribute positively to this country – cycling in and out of the Corrections System they will take far more than they ever give.

    I will not say there is no hope for all of them, but the odds are stacked against them.

    But more than this, these ram raiders seem to be brazenly embracing a degree of criminal recklessness that we have not seen before in this country, nor do the Police seem to be able to stop it. People are reacting viscerally to this.

    • joe90 13.1

      these ram raiders seem to be brazenly embracing a degree of criminal recklessness that we have not seen before in this country,

      Anecdotally from my SO – ram-raids and flash-mob smash and grabs are a social media phenomenon. Almost all are committed by young people with minimal to no previous contact with police/youth justice egged on by media peers, offending and then posting their exploits. Apparently their posting of their exploits is a factor, in our burg at least, in high clearance and referral rates to youth justice.

    • mickysavage 13.2

      I am afraid that I have far more knowledge of ram raiders than most because of my profession. They really are the grandchildren of Douglas's and Richardson's reforms. Their families have struggled to feed everyone, they have struggled at school, their health has been compromised and their sense of self worth has been trashed.

      I am in the situation where far too often I have either acted for their parents or I know of their parents' involvement in the court system. And the reason their parents were tangled up in the criminal justice system are the same reasons that they have become entangled.

      There is a modern tweak. These kids are really well networked. They have their own bubble, like most of us, but their bubble celebrates things that the rest of us understandably disapprove of.

      To sort this out we need to get back to the essential causes. And unwind all the damage that Douglas and Richardson caused.

      • RedLogix 13.2.1

        I appreciate the informed response there Mickey. I would certainly not quibble with first hand knowledge.

        To sort this out we need to get back to the essential causes. And unwind all the damage that Douglas and Richardson caused.

        Sighs – we have been having variations on that conversation here for 15ys now. There have been any number of excellent, often wise things I have read here over the years. Yet when it comes to putting Humpty back together again no-one seems to have a magic wand.

        The right demands individual responsibility, the left collective and the two political poles bicker endlessly and fruitlessly over which path is correct. For a very long time now I have have felt that each in isolation is insufficient – that a healthy society requires both. But that to have that conversation first demands we re-learn trust.

        • Craig H

          I'm on the left and would say both are needed – lowering the crime stats meaningfully will take societal shifts to improve economic standing of a lot of people, but a difficult life doesn't generally absolve an individual of responsibility either.

      • Thinker 13.2.2

        We also need to remember part of the cause of some crimes is the Australian policy of keeping the good kiwis but throwing the bad ones back, after they've had time to go bad in the Australian system.

        You mentioned that before but didn't mention it as an essentially right whinge policy. Luxons cousins-in-ideology.

    • DB Brown 13.3

      Hyperbole followed by nonsense. While I understand your concerns (someone's filled your head with fearmongering nonsense too) the fact is kids were capable of being right little shits last generation, and the generation before…

      Hamilton 1980's they were pinching and burning out cars, burglaries, assaults.. One friend tortured and murdered by a gang, but you think this is some unprecedented shit?

      Packs of boy racers, gangs, large public brawls, shocking and debilitating traffic accidents, all part of growing up in the 80's. Police arriving in a half dozen cars, taking batons to one and all, all part of it.

      We have not got worse, we have not got soft. Times change, kids are still acting as ever. The only difference is now we record it and amplify it making for national outrage at the drop of a hat.

      The media are pathetic and disgusting on all this. Opportunistic cunts to put it nicely.

      • RedLogix 13.3.1

        Oh my what a big tough guy you are. You sound like the perfect person to go around reassuring business owners that none of this is new – just the same old same old. Nothing to worry about really,

        Let us know how you get on sweetpea.

        • DB Brown

          Is sweetpea the new snowflake? That's twice in two days from two TS people. Must be word of the week in right-speak.

          Youth crime is not new, nor is stirring up the pot about crime. None of it is good nor acceptable but neither is using others misery to push this creaky old wagon out once again.

          One would hope these complete wankers could at least let the grievers grieve before trotting out the Labour government is responsible for crime theories.

          Your plea to my 'going round to business owners to reassure' is sad emotional wankery, like the rest of it. Let the grieving grieve, and get a grip.

          • weka

            Snowflake has a winter vibe, sweetpea is the impending summer.

          • swordfish


            Must be word of the week in right-speak.

            Dear oh dear, the conspiratorial delusions of self-interested bourgeois Wokedom … the idea that anyone outside your regressive little cult – a cult that deploys Identity Politics to viciously scapegoat large swathes of working people of the 'wrong' ethnicity – the idea that all critics of your elitist authoritarian upper-middle cult must be "right-wing" highlights either (a) just how warped your thinking is or (b) just how dishonest & willing to use character assassination you are.

            If we can gently encourage you back to something approaching reality for just a moment, I used “sweetpea” purely for my own amusement … no neo-nazi, heteronormative, transphobic, patriarchal, white supremacists bent on erasing your identity took part in choosing the word “sweetpea” for me.

            Do I make myself clear, sweetness ?

            • swordfish

              The claustrophobic ideological echo-chamber that you people inhabit is really quite something to behold.

              A couple of your more intellectually-limited Woke chums here have suggested my critique of your inherently antisocial democratic ideology suggests I've been either (a) deeply influenced by Russian Bots or (b) I'm mindlessly parroting American radio shock-jocks who I've barely heard of let alone ever listened to.

              You're at least as nuttily conspiratorial as the Trumpists … but I'm increasingly thinking a damn sight more so … I guess it's how ideologically-captured dogmatists attempt to ward off cognitive dissonance.

              Critical Theory is the new Scientology … and I think I’m going to refer to you from now on as Latter-Day L. Ron Hubbards.

              • DB Brown

                Ooo, I see a conspiracy theorist. Oooh, I can do alliteration.

                As the threat to all that is holy (you religious spanner) my intellectually woke chums and I have been digging holes and putting in posts for grapes – it's a mad fucking wokeFEST. While you, I gather, have been reading blogs and getting very angry about Maoris.

                You're a piece of shit old man.

          • Macro

            "Youth Crime is not new" Quoted for Truth!

            I began my social work career as a Boys Welfare Officer in the 60's, and also spent a period working as a Probation Officer. Most weeks I would be preparing 10 or more separate Court Reports for young boys appearing before the magistrate in the Children's Court. There were 6 male BWO's in our office at that time and we all had similar case loads. I had a caseload of over 100 boys who had been placed under supervision by the Court, as well as around 40 State Wards at that time in Porirua Hospital.

            Youth crime rates have remained relatively steady over the years The way society has tried to react and to socialize young people who have erred, and carried out anti-social behaviour, has changed over the years. The Nat proposal of "boot camps" is not new and has been used in the past and abandoned. In the 1950's – 70's we had Boys' Homes , Kohitere, and Borstal. But as can be seen from the link above no more effective in reducing the crime rate than our current youth system of Police Youth Aid and Family Court Conferences for the 40 odd percent of youth offending.

            I recall the group of boys from well to do homes in Wellington who went on a spree of car conversions in the late 60's. They had a bag of keys which could fit almost every car in Wellington when finally apprehended. The ram raids are just today's version. Attention seeking being a large factor in the offending.

  14. Anne 14


    Looks like this case might be linked to a cartel of 'seasoned' criminals. All of them well into their 30s and at least one of them a deportee from Aussie.

    Still the gummint’s fault cos Seymour and Luxon say so. (sarc)

    • Anne 14.1

      Would someone with the expertise that I do not possess like to check these facts from Sunny Kaushal the organiser of the "Change Org." petition emailed to me today:

      Petition reason:

      In November 2022, a young married dairy worker was tragically murdered in an Auckland suburb for doing their job and serving their community. In July, in another suburb, a policewoman was brutally assaulted in broad daylight. Those on the retail front line are bashed, burgled, ramraided and stolen from daily. We feel abandoned by government policies that are pro-criminal.

      – In the first six months of 2022 ramraids are up 518%

      – From January to November there were 430 ram raids alone

      – Since 2020, crime affecting supermarkets is up 246%.

      – Assaults against dairy and small business workers are up 31%

      – 1.4 million Kiwis were victims of crime in 2021

      – Even Police aren’t safe with six being assaulted every single day

      – Yet, despite all of this, arrests are down with the prison population down 26%

      Thanks in anticipation.

      • Muttonbird 14.1.1

        Government policies are pro-criminal? That seems a stretch, even for Gaurav Sharma's mentor, Sunny Kaushal.

        Fact is, corner dairies, while convenient for milk and bread are purveyors of misery in the form of cigarettes, vapes, and lottery tickets.

        There are far to many of them, and that most are run semi-amateur and underfunded, and sell dangerous, restricted goods leads to situations where they are targeted by Australian exported 501s and their protégées.

        • ianmac

          "Gaurav Sharma's mentor, Sunny Kaushal."

          Is that for real or just a figure of speech Muttonbird

          • Muttonbird

            The post by Mickysavage described Kaushal as a previous failed Labour candidate for New Lynn now grandstanding against, and blindly critical of, the government.

            Both look to have similar motivations so I linked the elder to the younger. I'm sure they've talked…

          • Anne

            Sunny Kaushal also had an issue with Labour in 2017. He missed out on selection and has avenged Labour since.

            In my electorate Labour had a similar experience also in 2017. A candidate of Indian origin came forward but did not win selection. It had nothing to do with ethnicity but rather they did not seem to have the required skills. They all disappeared and took all bar one of our Indian members with them.

            I fear they assumed the lack of selection was because of their ethnicity but they were entirely wrong.

        • Visubversa

          And where they employ some newcomer to "mind the shop" – probably without doing any sort of health and safety briefing about how to deal with robberies – "shut the door and ring the cops" – rather than "chase the villain 100m down the road and get into a scrap with him".

          I used to work with Bank Officers in one of my past incarnations and I know the sort of safety briefings they had about just handing over the $$$$$$ and doing exactly what they were told. Consequently, I don't think there has been a Bank Officer harmed in a robbery since an "Agency Escort" was killed in the late 1970's.

          • Muttonbird

            You'd almost imagine it might be part of the remit of Dairy and Business Owners Group chairperson Sunny Kaushal to educate dairy owners about the safety of themselves and their workers, or at least advocate for proper training.

            Apparently it's all someone else's problem…

            • Anne

              I'm sure someone will interpret the following incorrectly:

              But there does seem to be an issue with some political aspirants of Indian or related backgrounds. We have Gaurav Sharma, Sunny Kaushal and the former unsuccessful candidate in my electorate.

              There appears to be a perception among them that their aspirations for political office – or a perceived grievance – should have precedence over everyone else. When it doesn't happen they take umbrage and embark on a course of 'sabotage'. I cannot recall the details but I have a recollection the National Party had a similar problem not too long ago.

          • Craig H

            I worked various fast food franchises for nearly 10 years and they all had the same briefings – let the robber have the money, your life is always worth more.

    • tWiggle 14.2

      I read in Stuff that the dairy worker chased the thief down the road, and was knifed 100 m from the dairy. Not that they deserved to be hurt and killed, but maybe they would still be alive if they hadn't gone after the money.

      As to ram and dairy raids like this, I reckon it's gangs setting up the scene for protection rackets, as the police have been doing well at disrupting the lucrative drug trade.

  15. aj 15

    If you want to apportion blame then the toxic consequences of Roger Douglas’s and Ruth Richardson’s policies can be blamed. The solution will not work over night but essentially it is to repair the damage caused to ordinary families by poverty. But this will take years.

    Sums it up here …


  16. Incognito 16

    I can understand, to a point, when conservatives show their punitive streak, but it always surprises me when so-called liberals show their penalising side that is bordering on vengeful. Their self-assumed superiority, especially morally, and self-righteousness causes the same distrust I have when I encounter imposters and conmen.

  17. Muttonbird 17

    Kiwis being treated like ‘second-class citizens’, says Australian minister

    Australia is treating New Zealanders like second-class citizens, the country’s Home Affairs Minister Clare O’Neil has admitted on TVNZ show Q+A.

    But there are no plans to reform Australia’s 501 deportation policy, O’Neil says, even where individuals born in New Zealand have lived in Australia most of their lives.

    Sadly NZ was again at the mercy of Australian exported misery, this time a 501 deported earlier this year stabbed to death a corner shop worker on an Auckland suburban street when the light was failing on Wednesday evening.

    I still believe the best way to stop Australian society turning young Kiwis into criminals is to not allow them to go there in the first place. Stop the 444!


  18. Jenny are we there yet 18

    The hypocrisy of the Lawn Order fanatics not demanding we stand up to Australia over using this country as a dumping ground for their criminals. Instead using this terrible crime to launch an attack on the government, ignoring the fact that this criminal was a 501.

    Conspiracy theories around Three Waters, and Law & Order look to be the attack lines this government will face from the opposition.

    The government could spike the opposition's guns on Law & Order by taking a stand on the 501s.

    How Can Labour Win in 2023? comment 22.1

    “It is all a matter of leadership and political will.”


    …..Australia can't make or impose their rules on us unless we agree to let them impose their rule on us.

    We're a sovereign country.

    If our government regulated that every air carrier that flies into this country that allows a flight with any 501s on board being sent to this country against their will, that, that flight will not be allowed to disembark, or unload in this country, not until that said airline agrees to fly any 501s on board, back home, at that said airlines expense.

    If the Australian government tries to put forced 501s onto ships, the same applies.

    End of the matter.

    (It goes without saying that Air New Zealand partly owned by the government will not be allowed enforced 501s on board any New Zealand planes to begin with.)

    Any threats of retaliation from Australia for us refusing to take 501s need to be met with the disdain it deserves.

    Taking a strong leadership stand on this issue is a vote winner. The more the Aussies shriek and complain the more votes in it for our government.

    How Can Labour Win in 2023? comment

    "It's up to us"


    …..The only reason the 501 issue is not a major international diplomatic incident right now, is because up to now, we have quietly acquiesced to Australia's will.

    The thing about bullies, if you acquiesce to one, you become a target for other bullies.

    If the Albanese administration did escalate the 501 issue into a major diplomatic incident by threatening to stop issuing visas to Kiwis just to twist us to their will, and we gave in to it, what would that say about us?

    What would even bigger powers than Australia, like the US or China, who can exert even greater diplomatic and trade pressure against us, make of how easily Australia got us to us bend to their will?

    So much for us having a "fierce independent foreign strategy" if we fall over at the first challenge to it from a foreign power. (and a relatively minor one at that).

  19. Gosman 19

    "If you want to apportion blame then the toxic consequences of Roger Douglas’s and Ruth Richardson’s policies can be blamed."

    Except for most crime the crime rate fell for much of the time from the 1990's till just recently.


    The evidence suggests the introduction of a comprehensive welfare state in the 1930’s coincided with a sustained increase in the crime rate from the 1950’s onwards (just about the time children from the 1930’s were becoming adults).

    • Incognito 19.1

      Your elevator seems stuck …

      Edit: I see you’re still editing your comment; I can’t wait for your pearls to drop here in TS.

    • mickysavage 19.2

      Correlation does not equate to causation. The most coherent explanation I have seen for the decline is reducing levels of lead in petrol.

      • Gosman 19.2.1

        You haven't provided ANY evidence that the reforms of Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson caused the increase in crime we are seeing today. I have provided evidence that Crime rates fell in the 20 plus years post this.

        • lprent

          So you have you looking at the slowly aging demographic during the same period. I'd take a bet that I could find a correlation with the solar sunspot cycle.

          The problem is that you haven't shown any reason to indicate that the crime fell. The reporting of crimes started rising as Labour and NZ First kept pushing for an increase in the real police budget and a sworn head count increase in the 00s.

          Except for most crime the crime rate fell for much of the time from the 1990's till just recently

          For instance in the 1990s it was damn near impossible to actually get the police to register a many crimes in the crime stats. The only reason that most theft around where I lived was because the insurance companies required it. However most of those complaints were just an acknowledgement that it had been reported – not that it entered in the crime stats.

          That was because the effective police numbers were drastically reduced as part of the cost-cutting. easy enough to look up. Look for the number of sworn officers verse the population. The number of police per head was drastically reduced as the police budget barely rose in nominal terms while inflation and population were growing.

          So your claim that crime dropped is frankly just bullshit.

  20. Stuart Munro 20

    There are a lot of issues in the ram raids.

    Returned economic refugees from the neoliberal reforms – smells like karma – invoice Roger & Ruth for damages.

    End runs around migration rules – policy was never supposed to create a subclass of subcontinental dairy operators, much less slave fishermen or pruning & milking peons. Are they skilled? No? Wtf are they doing here?

    Failure at a political level to grapple with the generators of inequality – one of which seems to be Orr et al.

    Fog cannons? NZ grows both wasabi and chilies – improvised irritants should deter what concrete and steel do not.

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