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Peters stands down

Written By: - Date published: 5:49 pm, August 29th, 2008 - 145 comments
Categories: election 2008, election funding, helen clark, nz first - Tags:

Peters has stood down. Clark has taken over his portfolios.

It’s good that Peters appears to have accepted that this is a necessity and hasn’t turned on the Government. Clever of Clark to take the portfolios herself too.

[we nearly had the scoop on this too but it took too long for me to get an internet connection, damn Herald got in ten minutes earlier]

145 comments on “Peters stands down”

  1. Anita 1

    Everyone except The Herald is reporting “stands aside”.

    The Herald was way after Stuff, and Stuff was way after Radio NZ broadcast it.

  2. sweetd (The idiot dickhead) 2

    “[we nearly had the scoop on this too but it took too long for me to get an internet connection, damn Herald got in ten minutes earlier]”

    Makes sense, you have a direct feed from the 9th floor.

    [lprent: You know that I’m a bit picky on that subject. I’ll just adjust your name a bit. Aren’t you lucky – I didn’t adjust all of your comments. Fortunately it took too long to fire up Navicat.]

  3. r0b 3

    This is good news. Both HC and WP must have handled the meeting well. Now I’ll be very interested to hear what the Serious Fraud Office come up with.

  4. sweetd (The idiot dickhead) 4

    r0b

    Your comment seems to think that the SFO have an up hill case to prove. Really, what else could both (HC and WP) of them do?

  5. r0b 5

    sweetd the idiot dickhead, my comment meant no such thing. I think Winston has blown it this time, and I’ll be very interested to hear what the Serious Fraud Office come up with. But it is always possible that Winston is correct, and there is nothing nefarious to find, and we should keep that possibility in mind.

  6. Felix 6

    With Winston it’s always advisable to keep every possibility in mind.

  7. sweetd (The ignorant dickhead) 7

    What chance ,really, do you think there is nothing to find? It is too late for WP, and to some degree by association HC, the mood of the people has already shifted and WP is bad goods. Key outplayed Clark (dropping WP) on wednesday and it is all catch up from Clark’s point of view now.

    If, and its a big if, WP is innocent of all charges, what worries me is that under MMP you only have to pander to 5% of the electorate and you stand a high chance of becoming a king maker.

  8. Felix 8

    sweetd the idiot dickhead:

    Unless you have some special knowledge of the case then you don’t know anything more than what we’ve all heard so you can’t be sure of anyone’s guilt or otherwise.

    What do you righties have against due process?

  9. Tim Ellis 9

    SP thank you for putting up this post. It would have been great to see you guys have the scoop on this. Roll on faster broadband!

    I don’t think you’ve covered yourself in glory on this issue SP. I don’t like to rub things in, but this morning I wrote:

    “Your responses so far have been: 1. National is lying. 2. There isn’t any evidence. 3. There is now evidence, but Winston hasn’t done anything illegal or immoral. 4. Winston has done a few immoral things, but look at how immoral the other guys are. 5. Winston deserves a fair trial, and everybody is colluding to stop him having a fair trial because they are immoral and corrupt. 6. This isn’t a major issue.</i.

    I don’t like to put words in people’s mouths SP, but if you stay to form your post after the PM makes her decision today will be: 7. The PM made the right decision in the circumstances.

    It turns out I was right. I am also disturbed by reports that Labour Party sources are currently going around smearing Owen Glenn. I would be surprised if these rumours turn out to be true, but if they are I would be really disgusted at the cynical way they’re behaving. Dail Jones really jumped the proverbial sycophantic shark this week when he insinuated that Owen Glenn’s evidence to the Privileges Committee was a forgery; I do hope the Labour Party don’t use such disgusting, disloyal tactics towards somebody they were so happy to take money from, celebrate with a new year’s gong, and celebrate with a business school.

  10. GordonF 10

    Julian Robins on National Radio praised Key on his “brave and principled stand” re Peters. Sorry Julian it was neither brave nor principled, as per usual Mr Key is just playing the polls and hoping like Hell that some of this stuff sticks to Peters.

  11. Draco TB 11

    This is good news and I’m going to be very interested in what the SFO comes up with as well.

  12. sweetd (The ignorant dickhead) 12

    Felix

    “What do you righties have against due process?”

    So, why isn’t Tito Philip Field still a Labour MP? He hasn’t been found guilty of any crimes? According to HC he was only guilty of helping his fellow constitutents.

  13. Felix 13

    sweetd the ignorant dickhead:

    That’s got nothing to do with what I said.

    You guys need to wipe the froth from your lips and let justice take it’s course.

  14. sweetd 14

    Iprent.

    Tito Philip Field has not been found guilty of anything.

    The only reason he was dumped from the Labour Party was when he dared to suggest he would stand as an independent against the Labour Party.

    So, Iprent, why am I ignorart?

    [lprent: Because you listen to Whale – who is technically incompetent. You suggested that Steve works on the 9th floor without any evidence (and he doesn’t). I consider that to be both idiotic and ignorant, and it offends me. So I’m making my opinion public. Read the About and consider why you don’t offend a sysop. Besides it is more fun than banning on a friday. ]

  15. Tim Ellis 15

    Felix, that’s a good question. The issue for me has always been not whether Winston Peters was guilty or innocent. The issue has been the credibility of his answers in public. Since the story broke he has been evasive with the media, and gone on the attack. He has done everything to create further problems for himself. The Prime Minister has known for six months that there was a “conflict of evidence”, despite saying the whole time that she had confidence in Winston Peters unless there was “evidence to the contrary”.

    I am not making judgements about his guilt, but his credibility has been torn apart through his own behaviour. It simply isn’t credible to go about claiming that the media forged evidence, as he claimed. It simply isn’t credible to go about railing that the press gallery is full of liars, as he has. It simply isn’t credible to hold a ministerial warrant while claiming that the Serious Fraud Office is conspiring to do you in. The performance in the Privileges Committee shows that he was more determined to make a mockery of Parliament than answer direct questions.

    Helen Clark has known about all this for a very long time. She will no doubt face the political consequences for that decision, because I think that dents her credibility as well.

    The issue isn’t whether Winston Peters took bribes, fraudulently put money towards purposes it wasn’t intended, or broke the law to fail to declare donations that he was legally required to do. Due processes, in the form of the SFO and the Privileges Committee, will determine that.

    The political issue is that throughout all this, Winston Peters has behaved in a way that did not just fail to enhance his integrity as a government minister; every time he played games over the issue, he damaged the integrity of his ministry, his coalition government, and Parliament as a whole. Helen Clark let that go on for far too long. He should have been stepped aside long ago.

  16. Well, when is Clark stepping down? Clearly she has lost the plot big time. Mr Glen deserves another gong. When can I sing ding dong the wicked witch is dead? Is Trevor in the dock or Fatty Field?? How’s Dover and Panty Boy??

  17. r0b 17

    Julian Robins on National Radio praised Key on his “brave and principled stand’ re Peters.

    I don’t think anyone could accuse Robins of a pro Nat bias (or a pro Labour one), and I actually think there is a germ of truth there. For better or for worse this is pretty much the only occasion on which I remember Key showing any kind of spine on anything. (Hmm – maybe supporting the repeal of S59 was another example).

    I don’t think it was “brave and principled”, but I do think it was “risky” (after all, Peters may be back), and that’s unusual for Key. Much more his style to sell out his principles for the path of least resistance.

  18. Would the chief justice principal smack some principles into Miss Clark?

  19. Felix 19

    Tim I agree, it’s about credibility (which is a perception).

    In my eyes, Peters has always had very little and this affair does nothing to alter that perception. To his supporters this affair will probably boost his credibility a bit, especially if he plays it as “sticking it to the man” which is his favourite defensive position.

    Of course if he is found guilty of serious wrongdoing he’ll be abandoned by all but his hard core supporters and probably won’t recover politically.

    As for Helen Clark, I doubt very much that anything can be made to stick to her in any meaningful way except in the perceptions of those who don’t consider her credible already.

  20. For six months Miss Clark has turned a blind eye too Winny the poohs blatant corruption.
    My tummy tightens said Lickspittle Campbell tug muscle.I expect Labour to poll 15% come election time.

  21. Felix 21

    dad your lyrics are getting better all the time.

  22. Sorry Felix I can’t sing for shit, but I do wonder what the voter thinks about Helen’s secret about Winston’s corruption. What party has the secret agenda Heather Simpson? Is it not in the public interest to have a Prime Minister that is truthful and does not withhold information. After all our taxes pay for the deceptive parasites.

    This regime will make history for ALL the wrong reasons.

  23. randal 23

    Winston is not the victim here but the very basis of our law itself and that is due process. Keys and Wodney and the rest of his claques have shown just how much they care for the sanctity of the law. Their effort is the same one used by schoolyard bullies and persons addicted to short term gratification. Shame on the nats and their fascist criminal tendencies. Labour will be reelected just to make sure that this way of carrying out the law does not become a permanent feature of life in New Zealand.

  24. lprent 24

    What is going to be interesting with this whole topic is what happens if the SFO and PC finds nothing conclusive – which is what I’m half-inclined to believe is what is likely to happen.

    While Peters has been a long way away from practicing the law – the other two people involved haven’t. Lawyers have a tendency to think through the downside of everything, and the old Electoral Act of 1993 has holes in it you could push a bus through.

    If I was Peters and the scenario above is the case – then I’d be pushing both the PC and the SFO to work as fast as possible (but to drag things out for a few weeks). Great publicity if the allegations are unprovable or were quite legal. Winston’s practice is to go into elections being the underdog. He only needs 5%…….

    I was so hoping that NZF would disappear this election from terminal respectability.

    Felix: d4j has being waxing quite lyrical recently (as has randal).

    Staying off-topic. I just realised that I could have used Search and Replace on sweeetd.. Oh well..

  25. higherstandard 25

    The SFO is a side show – regardless of what the find on WP, the Owen Glenn issue is completely separate and it is on this issue where he repeatedly lied to parliament, the NZ public and to the PM (although who knows if he did indeed lie to the PM perhaps they have been complicit in this fiasco since Glenn gave her the information on WPin February.

    Interesting he’s instructed Peter Williams to run diversion for himself and the Prime Minister and to attempt to smear Key and the Nat’s.

  26. Lawyers are showing their true colours, follow the money honey.Show me an honest lawyer and I’ll eat me hat.

  27. higherstandard 27

    d4j

    I think your hat is safe barring a very thorough search of NZ.

  28. randal 28

    lprent..if you think this is a game then I advise you to change your occupation and re-think your commitment and obligation to the labour party and the proletariat.

  29. Good comment Lynnp

    I just saw Key on TV and he looked very nervous.

    This (Winston attack) is a whole of the business bet by him. It obliterated the terrible week they were having, and attached Helen in one of her strengths, honesty. But it took out completely a potential ally and pissed off a portion of the population.

    Helen has done something no one else has done, persuaded Winston to stand down. Bolger and Shipley failed to do this. Helen’s handling is masterful.

    The real danger for national is if the SFO comes back and says that there is nothing to investigate. I suspect that this will be the finding. The only conspiracy that I can work out is that Helen conspired to aid and abet Winston to receive a donation from Glenn to pay costs to a national MP. Paradoxically Glenn’s money ended up in Clarkson’s pocket … Winston’s shenanigans with the signs do not help but I do not see that he has done anything illegal.

    If Winston is exonerated then Key will be in trouble. His standing down has shown Helen to be in control. Exoneration by the SFO and the Privileges Committee will make him smell like roses. National’s tantrum before the committee had actually considered and ruled on the complaint makes them look cheap.

    The winners will also be the EFA and the movement for state funding. How can national oppose it now?

  30. Oh my, randal is giving Lynn a broadside, oh what fun this will be to watch. Can I be the ref with a hat on please vicious randal?

  31. higherstandard 31

    I’m sure Michael Savage would be delighted that the current Labour party both protects and relies on the likes of WP to maintain power.

  32. lprent 32

    I’m afraid that it has been a long week with too little sleep because of the campaigning I do for the NZLP on the data analysis side. Fitting this in with the 9-5 leaves too few hours for fun.

    I’m pretty sure that I do not do it for the proletariat. More for making sure that my younger relatives don’t have to put up with kinds of lousy policy decisions from the Nat’s that I have.

    Basically I do this blogging for fun. It has to be the cheapest entertainment around…

    BTW: Has anyone else noticed that the stats department has released the census data down to meshblock level. Bloody great big database that I’ve been digging into for a while now. There are also the boundary maps as shp files – I’m having fun with those in the few spare minutes that I have available.

  33. Concerned of Tawa 33

    As Sweetd says Taito Philip Field has not been found guilty, yet he (and a pile of other Labour ministers before him) were never extended the favours from Clark that Winston has received. The double standards here are as credible as Winston. This will hurt Clark and you know it. Key has made the right call. For once.

  34. Dean 34

    “I’m pretty sure that I do not do it for the proletariat. More for making sure that my younger relatives don’t have to put up with kinds of lousy policy decisions from the Nat’s that I have.”

    Would that be the failed policies of the 90s which Labour attack but have refused to reverse after 9 years in government?

    Or would it be National NOT sending out fake eviction notices to state house tenants at the last election?

  35. sweetd 35

    Mickeysavage

    What time frame has the SFO given? It could easily stretch beyond the election.

    Iprent, yeah search and replace me. Its a fine line between editoral content and censorship.

    As far as I know Whale had a convincing arguement that hasn’t been rebutted yet. As this is your blog, I stand (and wait) to be corrected of my errors,

    SweetD

  36. lprent 36

    Dean: Those daft policies of the 1960’s to the early 1980’s that caused all of the later problems. That was a hell of lot of wasted opportunities. We’re still climbing up to the point that we can afford to pay for what needs to be done. Of course if the Nat’s get back in, we can rely on them to fritter away the recent gains.

    How young do you think I am?

  37. Dan 37

    My reading of Key on this one is that he dropped Peters on the advice of his Hollow Men advisors. He gave himself some wriggle room, and my reading of his interview tonight is that he is uncomfortable with the position he finds himself in. He would have preferred a more populist middle road with a dollar each way to the outcome. he also knows the Nats are vulnerable on questions of hidden money from interest groups.

    The line between a brave man and a foolish one is often very small.
    Some commentators have berated Peters for not being straight with the media, as if somehow that justifies the pack mentality that has ensued. When has the media been straight with Peters? It would be different if the Media were, without fail, objective, unbiased and fair. Many times Peters has enjoyed being the whipping boy to play the persecuted one to drum up his 5.1%. However, that is not carte blanche for the media to get even.

  38. lprent 38

    Sweeetd. It wasn’t a convincing argument – it was a few facts and a lot of speculation. To rebut it would require the anonymity of the posters would have to be violated. That wasn’t an option because of the reasons in our About.

    Let me just say that the bloated one is a liar about in the conclusions he reached and is full of shit.

    Ask rOb – according to the idiot, he is Rob Salmond – something that has been publicly refuted by both people. I know he isn’t because I know rOb. But it cannot be refuted because of the Privacy Policy.

    Essentially Whale is relying on our following our stated policy to make sure he wasn’t shown up to be the complete blowhard that I know him to be.

  39. Concerned of Tawa 39

    Dan

    “he also knows the Nats are vulnerable on questions of hidden money from interest groups.”

    Clark and Wisnton have completely removed that vulnerability.
    Hollow Women.

  40. r0b and rob and my head hurts. Cheers Winston. Go the lawyers.

    Clark’s credibility hits rock bottom (sorry no pun intended Judith) She sang, I did it my way while being taken away to the funny farm.

  41. Macro 41

    I would be surprised if the Serious Fraud Office finds anything! In fact Peter Williams on Campbell tonight stated that he had viewed the relevant accounts of the Spencer Trust and was completely satisfied that all was above board. Its not unknown for W P to give his detractors enough rope to hang themselves, and I suspect that that may well be what he has done again. Furthermore, those who believe that this latest round of fuss making by Rodney and John will count against W P may well find that the very people that they hope to turn against him will be backing him even more strongly than before!
    The thing though that amazes me most is the utter HYPOCRISY of those who have lead the charge against these so called secret donations and their being undeclared!
    I would be asking J K about the use of the private Helicopter by National in the last election, the Waitemata Trust Fund, etc etc… Heavens! N Hagar has written a whole book on it and its never been denied. How about removing the planks from their own eyes, before they try removing the splinter from others.

  42. gobsmacked 42

    The best part of this whole soap opera has been the entertaining spectacle of Key acting “um, decisive”, trying to remember his script but just not able to get in character.

    It’s Rambo, played by Noddy.

  43. sweetd 43

    Bugger me

    This excuse of a corrupt inept embarrassment of a pva glued held togethor government deserves to burn in the pyre of unfulfilled ambitions and undelivered promises.

  44. randal 44

    tell that to the families getting wff. Helen Clark will go down in history as one of New Zealands greatest prime ministers and the achievements of her government will live on long after she has gone.

  45. Monty 45

    A great week for National – John Key has looked to be the one in Control. Winston polling around 2% will not be able to recover to 5% at the election for two reasons – firstly his credibility is completely shot, and secondly because the only money he now has left in the bank is that which he did not pay to charities (thats right – It is no longer credible to belive the liar did pay all $158,000 to charities when he had nothing in the banks and secret trust accounts to fund his election campaign. No business wll now touch him. He has lied too many times.

    But the good news this week is Clark’s protection of Winnie. She has aided and abetted (and gambled that the public would not find out) about his corruption.

    I see the best result for National come 18 October 2008. (Clark will be forced to call an election on Wednesday after the ETS Bill has failed at the last hurdle.

  46. sweetd 46

    Iprent, TPP was removed from the LP becase he dared to becoeme an independent, not for any other reaon.

  47. Oh. Deah I better be clear. Helen Clark is Awesome, She is a cool, caring a courageous lady. I am fairly clear on that. So what does this mean. I am sad that such a great cool person is in a left wing party, why can’t we have some talent like hers.

    Helen has consistantley been polite professional and answered questions. John key has nothing on her.

    National have often belittled and given personal attacks to her which have made me very upset

    It has made me want to know more about the labour party beliefs.

    Can Labour please answer:>>>

    What does it take to grow an economy?

    What is wrong with Free enterprise.?

  48. “It’s Rambo, played by Noddy.”

    It’s Wonderwomens’, played by Helen and Heather, filmed in Helengrad.

  49. Sorry Monty

    I was worried about the ETS bill. I think it is the most important piece of legislation this government has to pass. Climate change is not waiting and if we do not start to do something now it will be too late. Today’s events confirm that it will be passed. If you want a bet let me know …

    Winnie has not been corrupt. He has been beligerent and stupid but what has changed?

    Helen has not protected him. She asked the right questions. Why someone in charge of a $45b spend should ascertain what happened to a private $100k donation to another party is way beyond me. Don’t you think she should be more worried about our economy?

    Election day will be November 1. LP and P and Green will be slightly ahead of N and ACT and NZF will not be there. Game over. Long live democracy and NZ will be better for it.

  50. Level 9 Standard has gone to moderation mode Sir.
    Over and out Batman.

    [lprent: you’ve joined the guessing game about the spelling mistakes and strange words that I pushed into the moderation queue.. ]

  51. Concerned of Tawa 51

    Mickysavage. Wow!

    “Why someone in charge of a $45b spend should ascertain what happened to a private $100k donation to another party is way beyond me. Don’t you think she should be more worried about our economy?”

    Good, so Clark won’t be interested in a group of Exclusive Brethren businessmen spending private money either.

    Glad we cleared that up. Move on.

  52. johndoe 52

    Spin is fine and even if anyone actually believed SP was writing all the stuff that comes out under his sig, it would still be fine. But delusional rants are not spin.

  53. Prentice Moderates Like Gerry Brownlee eats pies 53

    Gee, why won’t Helen call an election now and let her ‘court of public opinion’ decide?

    Because the head like a foot minger wants to keep going as long as possible to try and wipe Peters’ shit off her. And you sad substandard fucks support her stance.

    Your venal partisanship won’t get you any favours, you know. Clark is going to take the whole ship down with her.

  54. What an unusual name you have. I must step down.

    Edit – down goes the ship of fools Sir.

  55. Concerned of Tawa

    The EFA is about the money that parties spend. It will also increase transparency because parties will have declare election year donations. Glad to see the right wing agree that it is important.

    If you agree that there should be no limits then we should give up now and let the multinationals take over. If you want a democracy then we should have electoral spend limits. if you want the richest to take over then oppose limits.

    PMLAFB

    I had a great deal of difficulty understanding your post. Are you on some sort of medication?

  56. Concerned of Tawa 56

    Mickeysavage.

    Which part of Clark keeping silent for 6 months on Winstons (and Labours biggest donor) and the murkey donation trail increases transparency?

    I thought the EF would stop the undue influence of big bad foreign money trying to buy policy or Honorary Consul positions with cold hard secret cash.

    Apparently not.

    Hollow.

  57. Bill 57

    On the assumption that the SFO finds Sweet FA, (I postulated a while back that WP was letting things run because, well like a wind-up, the longer it runs, the sweeter the end result.) John Key will either

    a)successfully widen the focus and watch some mud stick to Labour

    or

    b) having been unsuccessful in regards to a) realise that it was about now when he became a pretty rotten fish hooked on a slowly reeled WP line. One that no-one was willing to swallow.

    Winston’s only danger, going on the assumption above, is that his sense of timing was out and he let things run a little too long. But then, I guess most people would be quite happy to get two for the price of one as it were. No?

  58. infused 58

    Macro: WP lied to the public and got caught out. National didn’t. HC supported peters. Spot the difference.

  59. Peters will survive this.

  60. coge 60

    Sweetd has a point. Yesterday SP categorically said Peters would lose his portfolios as a result of the SFO investigation. Does SP have the power of divination? It would be better for everyone if such speculation was answered clearly in an upfront manner.

  61. Bill 61

    infused.
    didn’t you listen to any of the tape from the Nat conference? National honest Joe…john, whatever. Uh-huh.

    sitting in a dispassionate space here, I can’t see where HC supported Peters.

    Maybe read my comment above.

    Sling the mud then and widen the focus. You think it will work?

    A truthful answer please.

  62. Falafulu Fisi 62

    lprent said…

    …I do for the NZLP on the data analysis side.

    BTW: Has anyone else noticed that the stats department has released the census data down to meshblock level. Bloody great big database that I’ve been digging into for a while now.

    I haven’t looked at that myself, but if you’re looking for state-of-the-art data-analysis open source software that may help you do that task, then look no further than the most popular open source data-mining/machine learning project on the planet from University of Waikato called WEKA. It is geared towards inductive inferences/knowledge discovery/pattern recognition rather than deductive inferences in traditional statistical analysis (although data-mining/machine learning do overlap with statistics to some extent).

    How big is that Stats Dept database? That is how many rows (records) & columns (variables) in there? Is it in the millions? I haven’t done any data analysis on a big dataset as that. The largest dataset that I have developed an engine for online live analysis on, was around 150,000 records by 82 variables, and it takes about 7 minutes to run (and that’s excluding the pre-processing stage such as data-cleansing, imputation, normalization, etc…).

    If you have any further questions about any techniques/algorithms (such as what to use for a certain analysis), then you’re welcome to drop me an email.

  63. Monty 63

    I am prepared to bet anyone $1,000 that Winston will not be returned to parliament after the elction. The stench of corruption, lies and trying to be too smart will take him down. Hell he was only returned in 1999 because of 64 stupid people in Tauranga that gave hime an extra lease of life – and that was about an $89 pair of undies belonging to Tuku. This time he will not be returned byt he people of Tauranga who have woken up to his bullshit. Neither will there be enough people in the resthomes to give him the 5% he desperately needs. Hell over their bingo and bridge and over the next seven weeks they will all be talking about what a nice Prime Ministerthat John Key will make. Anf the few Maori that once supported Winnie now have the Maori Party. Winston will get 3% on election night.

    Winston is gone for all money. He deserves to go. The next one to watch with interesat will be Clark – why did she protect Winnie for the past six months except to hang desperately onto power – Shame on her and her corrupt practice of protecting that parasite of NZ politics.

  64. toad 64

    Um, so Helen’s the Minister for Racing?

    Surely she could have given that one (a minor portfolio that could be [was] held outside Cabinet) to Sue Bradford or Russel Norman. After all, Bradford and Norman did all the work in Parliament exposing the Vela donations to NZF (or whatever entity that eventually [mis?]appropriated them) – and Bradford was hot on the trail of the racing stakes deals from pub pokie trusts and Parliamentary appropriations for racing stakes well before that.

    If Labour wanted to really bring the Greens onside before the election, now that Winston First is the proverbial packet of dog biscuits, that’s what they should have done.

  65. rave 65

    The rush to judgment is becoming frenetic. I note that the left blogs are getting carried along in the wash.
    Another old battler, David Williams QC, spoke up for Winston on TV1 tonight. “Peters has nothing to answer to the SFO”.
    I would bet on the battlers to go the distance against the crybabies Key and Hide. I would say Key and Hide will both lose theirs.
    This is a showdown between the old fading white middle class cast adrift by Rogernomics, and the casino wide boys who think they own us. The populists have got a sting in their tail because its survival for them and not just bonuses.
    You write Peters off at your peril righties. He did you twice in the 90s and the 00s. Peters may have to mortgage his trust account and Williams his yacht but don’t write him off yet.

  66. lprent 66

    FF: All up it is about 4.8 million rows across a number of 3rd normal form tables. It is in bloody access – took while to transfer into something useful.

  67. “Um, so Helen’s the Minister for Racing?”

    Oh Toady , $5 each way the greens sit on the fence on the Winny saga. Helen Rules should win Race 7,Bad Bradford has the blinkers on again in Race 8 and the bloody lawyers win the jackpot.

  68. r0b 68

    Can Labour please answer

    Hi Anthony. Labour don’t run this blog, but there are a few Labour Party members about. I’m one.

    What does it take to grow an economy?

    Talented educated people. Investment. Time, luck. Enough regulation but not too much. Labour’s record on growing the economy is good, better than National’s, and better than several other countries over the last 9 years.

    Mythbusting: Labour’s just had golden economic weather

    Spin-busting: ‘A growth problem, not a debt problem’

    Talking down the economy

    What is wrong with Free enterprise.?

    Nothing. Why would you think it was?

  69. randal 69

    betta watchout d4j….you might not beat the ambulance….hahahahaha

  70. Anita 70

    lprent,

    Has anyone else noticed that the stats department has released the census data down to meshblock level. Bloody great big database that I’ve been digging into for a while now. There are also the boundary maps as shp files – I’m having fun with those in the few spare minutes that I have available.

    Cool eh! 🙂 I’ve always used the street address to meshblock mapping not the boundary maps – how easy are they to plot?

    I do find the rounding-for-privacy rules make the data look lumpy tho.

  71. gazzaj 71

    Just thought it might be worth pointing out that a “scoop” usually refers to an exclusive – not a story that almost every journo in the country has literally been chasing all day.

    Being the first to hit “post” does not a scoop make.

    cheers

  72. gazzaj 72

    The next one to watch with interesat will be Clark – why did she protect Winnie for the past six months except to hang desperately onto power

    I think she’ll get away with it… teflon skin and all that. Sure, the people who wouldn’t vote for her anyway will be pissed off, she’ll lose a handle of swing voters, but labour have lost most of them already. The 35% they are polling at are diehard labour and it’ll take a lot more than this for them to change their minds.

  73. burt 73

    Plan G, Version 5.2

    Winston steps down, election is called before Owen Glenn testifies quashing the privileges committee hearing. The question of misleading the house is dead and the only problems that might remain are legal and if they surface they will be after the election. These are Winston’s problems and as far as accountability to the rules of parliament go Helen Clark and Trevor Mallard also walk free.

    It’s actually not a bad exit strategy from such a tight corner. So much damage could have been avoided had decision priorities been different.

  74. ak 74

    (Ritalin, burt, dangerously close to overload there. You’ve been doing so well darling, don’t spoil it all by reverting to that pathetic early election call you’ve been spouting for three years – not long to go now baby, just relax and hang in there, soon be over)

  75. Jon 75

    Sweetd. I was wondering if you were offering to join the Labour Party by your 8.16pm comment

  76. Silly Jon, Why would Sweetd want to join a Party that has a track record of inappropriate behaviour by Minsters of the Crown? Nobody likes liars and cheats. It’s so obvious the Labour Party is run by a despicable untruthful corrupt women who is a power tripper, which has severely clouded her judgment.
    She will destroy the Labour Party as we know it. Bad luck girls and eunuchs.

  77. burt 77

    ak

    Want to put a beer on it that the election is called before next Thursday and there is no final determination from the privileges committee ?

    Or like most of NZ would you think that was a diabolical use of parliamentary process to opportunistically shut down the process of maintaining the integrity of parliament?

    It would be like shutting down a court case wouldn’t it – no govt that believed in the principles of democracy and integrity would do that would they, so I might loose my beer but I’m willing to take that risk.

  78. monkey-boy 78

    It’s a series of cynical moves, by Helen and Winston indeed. The question is, will the people swallow it?
    I wonder how Winston feels now that Helen has him by the baubles? Or is it the other way round?
    It may depend on how much Helen and Mike Williams knew about the Owen Glenn/Winston issue before the actual payment of the money, to Winston mightn’t it?
    It has already taken since February for Helen to fess up about the Owen Glenn donation ‘Because nobody asked me’.
    Would it be worth asking her in the House if she, Williams and Simpson knew that Owen Glenn was going to back Winston BEFORE February, because they were complicit in the coalition arrangement, and the ‘carrot’ of a consulship for Glenn?
    Does she really imagine Owen Glenn is finished on this matter? Or is the only course left now to smear Glenn and attempt to completely discredit him?
    I await with interest.

  79. the sprout 79

    gee you’re right burt, the privileges committee should totally timetable its actions according to your perceived political expediencies. if it didn’t it’d be ‘corrupt’, right?

    what i wonder is how Simon Power could possibly act independently as its Chair when his party leader has already decided the verdict for him.

    oh and apropo your previous response about how Owen Glenn couldn’t possibly have been acting to set Peters up, i guess you’re right. you must have misread me. i’m sure he was only meaning to help Peters out with that letter to Power. Glenn, Jones and Simunovich have clearly only ever tried to clarify things in the best interests of democracy, right Burty?

  80. the sprout 80

    still, you’ve got to admire the bravery of Key and Hide to be picking a fight with someone with as comprehensive a closet full of other people’s skeletons as Peters.

    good for them. i look forward to the impending consequences of such bravery.

  81. Privileges Committee, Serious Fraud Office and a drooling Lickspittle media all tied up in more political corruption within the Clark regime.
    When will we have a government that can focus solely on the welfare of its constituents and running the country along the lines of integrity and honesty? Clark should be in a prison cell.

  82. r0b 82

    Got to love your wacky conspiracy theory Burt! Guess what – the SFO was due to be disbanded. Clark has delayed that process so that the SFO can complete it’s enquiry into Peters. If she wanted to shut it down, or cover up for Peters, she didn’t need to deliberately act to allow the SFO enquiry to go ahead…

  83. the sprout 83

    r0b now you’re just obscuring Burty’s brilliant theory with like… facts and stuff

  84. r0b of course the SFO is due to be disbanded, just like access to the Privy Council .The Labour Party fear Natural justice and the police are just slimy lap poodles for Aunty Helen.

  85. monkey-boy 85

    WEll r0b if you want ‘wacky conspiracy’ look at my ‘monkeyswith typewriters’ post ‘The Ego Has Floundered’ You’ll love it.
    http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2008/08/ego-has-floundered.html

  86. Felix 86

    No thank you monkey, burt’s little brain has me laughing so hard I probably won’t be able to read for a couple of days.

  87. r0b 87

    Dad – the functions of the SFO are to be absorbed by some new organisation, I forget the exact details.

    Sorry – love to stay and play, but I have an appointment with a big trailer and a recycling centre…

  88. Oh yes r0b, the “new organisation”, silly me, undoubtedly headed by the new Minister of All Justice Ms King? I have a bad taste in my mouth as the judiciary is tainted by Labour. Ouch that hurt but justice is my game MADam speaker.

    Edit – must go and hang the washing out because I got shit loads as its been raining for a fucken month.

  89. Anita 89

    r0b,

    Dad – the functions of the SFO are to be absorbed by some new organisation, I forget the exact details.

    The Serious Fraud Taskforce within the new Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand, a department of the New Zealand Police – taken from the call for public submissions on the Serious Fraud Office (Abolition and Transitional Provisions) Bill.

    Clearly an attempt to give it to an insignificant agency with no competence or history in law enforcement or investigation, with no public consultation 😉

  90. Agreed Anita, dangerous stuff and I do wonder when they find a Chairperson (no sexist comment Chairman) for the innocence project and when the Minister of courts is going to reply to questions raised by the United Nations regarding malicious gender bias in the De Femily Kangaroo Court?

    edit – TAB paying evens that the hot shot cocksucker lawyer cons the keystone cops again.

  91. Bill 91

    If you thought having WP around was a bad idea, then consider this.

    http://www.palinforvp.com/3.html

    Poor bastards.

  92. Ill Bill, What a great Iron lady who like me, HATES CORRUPTION in GOVERNMENT!!!!

  93. Bill 93

    I’m just waiting for the bikini shots campaign. Issues? What issues?

    Nice woman. Looks good in a bikini, has a nice smile and…

    “The polar bear should be removed from the endangered species list because its protected status will hamper drilling for oil and gas in Alaska, the state’s Republican Governor has demanded.

    Sarah Palin is suing the Bush Administration over its decision last week to place the animal under the protection of the Endangered Species Act, claiming that climate models predicting the continued loss of sea ice – the main habitat of polar bears – are unreliable.”

    (May 23, Times Online)

    captcha paying 1917 !!!

    Bloody Bolsheviks put us back about 100 years

  94. roger nome 94

    SweetD:

    “Your comment seems to think that the SFO have an up hill case to prove.”

    A comment can’t think, you illiterate numskull. Really, just stop embarrassing yourself, it’s too painful to watch.

  95. roger nome 95

    “Privileges Committee, Serious Fraud Office and a drooling Lickspittle media all tied up in more political corruption within the Clark regime.”

    lol D4J – just for you …

  96. randal 96

    yesterday was a very black day in the history of New Zealnd as the creepy faction managed to deny natural justice and due process to Winston Peters. New Zealand will be a very ugly place to live if they ever gain power. there will be none of this malarky of idiotes waffling on trying to prove how smart they are. any opposition willbe crushed immediATELY by the crypto fascists in waiting.

  97. burt 97

    randal

    Might pay to ask your mother if she ever had a fling with D4J a little while before you were born. It might give you inner peace to know who your father is.

  98. randal 98

    are you another kreep burt?

  99. Tim Ellis 99

    I think irrespective of the outcome of the SFO investigation, Winston has shown himself yet again to lack the credibility and accountability required to hold a ministerial warrant.

    Just a few weeks ago, Winston publicly said he knew nothing about the Spencer Trust, and that it had nothing to do with New Zealand First. The SFO investigation is into whether money intended for New Zealand First, paid to the Spencer Trust, was used for New Zealand First purposes. If it wasn’t used for NZ First purposes, then there is the real possibility of serious and complex fraud, which the SFO is determining. If the money paid to the Spencer Trust was used for NZ First purposes, then Winston lied about it, and it should have been included on NZ First’s donation return, and New Zealand First filed a false return.

    I love it how some people continue to maintain that National should allow due process to follow suit. Winston has avoided due process at every step. He has trifled with due process at the Privileges Committee, and on Thursday by claiming that the SFO was on some weird conspiracy to do him in.

    The issue isn’t about due process. It is about Winston Peters making a mockery of parliament for the last six months for no other reason than wanting to hold onto power, and Labour doing their best to knowingly cover for Winston’s contempt for public accountability.

  100. Robinsod 100

    I loath Winston but after this I could almost be convinced to vote for him. A whole lotta people I know are feeling the same way. Good old right – always too willing to jump the shark…

  101. Robinsod 101

    Oh and does anyone but the hacks at the Herald really believe John Key and Rodney Hide have suddenly become desperately concerned about the moral implications of secret trusts?

  102. Matthew Pilott 102

    Hi all. At work on a Saturday. Just wanted to say this was the best thread I’ve read in quite some time.

    And dad, I just pissed myself with “Edit – must go and hang the washing out because I got shit loads as its been raining for a fucken month.”

    Amazing how much Peters hates National isn’t it? He didn’t even have the decency to pick a fight with Clark for their benefit.

    Monty, I won’t go in for a grand, but if someone did I’m fairly confident you’d be shouting the beers come Nov 8. Remeber – just because you hate him doesn’t mean everyone else does!

    On a completely unrelated topic my cap was ‘fruits asylum’. Made my day, that did.

  103. Tim Ellis 103

    That’s an interesting point Robinsod and even though I’m a nat I do agree that John Key wouldn’t have made the stand he did over Winston unless he believed it would give him a bit of a boost. His decision was more about politics than principle, but what do you expect of politicians?

    I also agree that the issue isn’t about the secret trusts and John Key and Rodney Hide aren’t on some big moral campaign to open them up. The issue is Winston has built his entire political career on being squeaky clean and holier than thou. I’m not very liberal but the way he dog-whistles to conservative voters and panders to their prejudices is just disgusting. That’s a separate point, but the real issue again is how much Winston has proven to be a hypocrite and a liar for the last six months. He has had so many opportunities to set the record straight and tell the whole truth and has blustered and bluffed his way through it.

    There does seem to be a proportion of the population that will adore Winston and never disbelieve anything he says. There also seems to be a group of people, quite a separate group, I think, who quite like the idea that he goes to Wellington and throws sh*t around at everyone and causes chaos.

    I doubt those two groups combined will make five percent this election, though. Still, stranger things have happened, especially concerning Winston, haven’t they?

  104. burt 104

    The SFO have already had more than ‘a few minutes’ meeting with Winston’s new Lawyer. Given Winston’s repeated claims that he can explain it all in a few minutes the whole thing must be over by now.

    Was Winston cleared in the few minutes he keeps telling us is all it will take or is Winston full of shit ?

  105. Matthew Pilott 105

    Burt – don’t hold your breath, we’d like to have you around a bit longer!

  106. Tim Ellis 106

    Burt, I don’t know much how the SFO operates, but I expect if they take the very serious decision to use their statutory powers, then they would do much more than just one interview with the subject’s legal representative. I note that both Winston said he would put the story straight, and Peter Williams QC said Winston would be exonerated this afternoon. That strikes me to be simply fairy-land stuff.

    No doubt others involved in the Spencer Trust, such as Wayne Peters, will need to be interviewed. Roger McClay, who supposedly solicited several of the donations to the Spencer Trust, will need to be interviewed. So too would Ross Meurant, Doug Woollerton, Dail Jones, the respective Treasurers of NZ First, among others. Not to mention the donors themselves: Bob Jones, the Vela brothers, and anyone else they find along the way. I wouldn’t be surprised if Brian Henry himself is interviewed, which might explain why he wasn’t representing Winston at the SFO.

    It really does astonish me how these supposed lawyers can look journalists in the eye and say that the SFO will close its investigations the same day they opened them.

  107. burt 107

    Tim

    Yes it’s funny isn’t it. They make absurd claims like that which they can never deliver on then claim they are fit to run the country.

  108. higherstandard 108

    burt

    In answer to your question.

    Yes WPs is virtually bursting at the seams.

  109. higherstandard 109

    Sod

    “I loath Winston but after this I could almost be convinced to vote for him.”

    Report to Billy for a tasering – you know that you deserve it.

  110. Sod wouldn’t mind a few volts up the backdoor, Howard doesn’t mind as he is Broad minded. Report to Ms King Super Justice Minister.

  111. Swampy 111

    “Felix
    August 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    sweetd the idiot dickhead:

    Unless you have some special knowledge of the case then you don’t know anything more than what we’ve all heard so you can’t be sure of anyone’s guilt or otherwise.

    What do you righties have against due process?

    It’s nothing to do with “due process” or even the current investigation. It’s simply down to the fact that this has been rumbling along for months and no one in their right mind could possibly accept that Winston can just carry on and ignore all the allegations swirling around. In the first term of Labour such allegations would have been grounds enough to drop Winnie like a hot potato.

    However Clark and by implication a great many lefties such as one of the authors of this blog apparently think they can steamroller on because the ETS has to be passed before the election at any cost. I can think of much more important things than the ETS that should be happening right now.

  112. Felix 112

    Who is ignoring “all the allegations swirling around” Swampy?

    Not the Privileges Committee. Not the SFO.

    But at least you recognise them as allegations which is a lot better than many of the foaming righties here.

    Due process kiddies, look it up if you have to.

  113. False allegations hurt more than a Howard animal farm taser up the anal passage.

  114. Tim Ellis 114

    Felix:

    Is the foreign minister able to properly do his job while there are allegations that he failed to declare a donation to his party, or a gift to himself, as he was required to do under the Electoral Act and the register of pecuniary interests? Is the foreign minister able to properly do his job while the serious fraud office is investigating him for serious or complex fraud?

    Is it acceptable for the prime minister to allow the foreign minister to wage a war with the media, defame them, and claim they forged evidence against him, when she knows that a genuine “conflict of evidence” exists between her foreign minister’s statements, and the statements of the prime minister’s party’s biggest financial donor? Is it acceptable for somebody to hold a ministerial warrant while accusing the serious fraud office of corruptly conspiring against him?

    Is it acceptable for a person holding a ministerial warrant to claim in the House, to the media, and to the public that he will provide all the information exonerating him, and yet continue to withhold that information for six months?

    Is it acceptable for a person to hold a ministerial warrant while continuing to change his previous statements to the House, to the media, and to the public (e.g.: “I know nothing about the Spencer Trust, it has nothing to do with New Zealand First, I have nothing to do with it,” and claim to the Serious Fraud Office that all the money that went to the Spencer Trust was spent on NZ First activities, while not declaring the Spencer Trust income as a donation on NZFirst’s electoral return?

    Winston Peters has had plenty of time to face due process. The Prime Minister knew that there were major inconsistencies, and failed to act for six months. This is not about due process. Due process will assess whether Winston Peters did anything illegal. The Prime Minister should have acted earlier to ensure Winston Peters acted appropriately. He didn’t. She didn’t. She should have sacked him long ago. He’s made a mockery of parliament and government in general. Once again, he’s shown he can’t be trusted to hold a ministerial warrant.

  115. randal 115

    yes to all the above. wiinie is sui generis.. a thing unto himself and by the way who is making al these rules you speak of. where is it written that any one must do all that crap just to conform to your idea of the perfect politician. this is real life not some silly little text book you may have read. be careful dude you might strangle yourself with your own underpants if you pull them right up tight.

  116. gobsmacked 116

    Once again, he’s shown he can’t be trusted to hold a ministerial warrant.

    Tim, at what point did this become true?

    Was it when the Foreign Minister opposed the trade deal with China, or when he attacked various minorities in speeches pandering to prejudice, or when he walked out of the Cabinet in 1998, or when he was a talkback hero in 1996, or … when?

    Winston Peters today is Winston Peters of the last 15 years, since NZ First was formed. Throughout those 15 years, National have NEVER said that Peters was beyond the pale. Never said that he could not be a minister in a National-led government. Not once. The warrant was up for auction, and National were bidding. And you know it.

    Until last week. Until it was, finally, seen as politically advantageous to do so. Until it could be spun (absurdly) as principle, when of course it was just another move in the game. It is the same Winston Peters, except now he’s at 2 or 3% in the polls.

    That high horse you and John Key are on is nothing more than two National Party strategists in a pantomime costume. So spare us the dramatic monologue, because the audience can see this show for what it is: a comedy.

  117. Tim Ellis 117

    Sigh, I feel like I’m feeding a troll by even engaging with you Randal. But can you honestly say, and let’s just try and get a little bit of perspective here, that if any of these circumstances had gone on with Winston as a senior minister in Jenny Shipley’s government, that Helen Clark wouldn’t be jumping up and down calling for his resignation?

    Because I seem to remember that much less significant allegations were swirling around Winston’s behaviour Winston was a senior member of Jenny Shipley’s government, and Helen Clark called for him to be sacked then. I don’t remember you lining up defending Winston then.

  118. r0b 118

    Is the foreign minister able to properly do his job while there are allegations that he failed to declare a donation to his party, or a gift to himself, as he was required to do under the Electoral Act and the register of pecuniary interests?

    Yeah silly Winston. He should have used a shell “Trust” like the National Party did to legally sanitise his donations.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2008/02/22/time-to-tell-us-about-your-donors-national/

    Is it acceptable for the prime minister to allow the foreign minister

    You Nats are just desperate to pin something on the PM aren’t you! HC is quoted in The Herald as follows:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10529610&pnum=0

    11.45AM: Helen Clark admits knowing about Owen Glenn’s donation in February this year. “He [Owen Glenn] stated his view then that he had contributed money – whether it was to New Zealand First or to some other fund that’s lost in the mists of time.’

    Contributes to NZF or some other fund? That’s not exactly a smoking gun when Peters denies it.

    Is it acceptable for a person holding a ministerial warrant to claim in the House

    Is it acceptable for the leader of the opposition to use shell trusts to anonymise donors that should be publicly known? Is it acceptable for the leader of the opposition to collude with a third party to circumvent electoral law and then lie about it to the public? (Oh wait – no – we know the answer to that one – it isn’t, Brash got caught and had to resign). Is it acceptable for the leader of the opposition to tell porkies to the people about what his party will do if they get elected (thank you Secret Agenda taper!)? Is it acceptable for the leader of the opposition to develop “policy” in such secrecy that even his spokespeople don’t know it so he has to keep correcting them? Ho humm, what a silly game.

    But you did actually say something interesting upthread: Just a few weeks ago, Winston publicly said he knew nothing about the Spencer Trust, and that it had nothing to do with New Zealand First.

    That would be very interesting if true – source please?

  119. Tim Ellis 119

    Gobsmacked that is a good point. I don’t know what high horse you think I’m on. I have thought for the last fifteen years that Winston is poison for anybody who associates with him. You may be confusing me with somebody who has ever defended him. I haven’t. You may also be confusing me with somebody who thinks that it is purely for reasons of principle that John Key has made the decision he has not to allow him in any future government. I don’t. I agree there is an element of strategic convenience, but I’m glad that’s been made.

  120. gobsmacked 120

    Tim

    OK, I accept that you would prefer opposition to being in government with Peters “inside the tent”. There are people on both left and right who believe that, but they are certainly quiet in public.

    Here’s how it used to be, lest we forget:

    Audrey Young in the Herald, May 16, 2005

    “A power-sharing scenario in which New Zealand First leader Winston Peters becomes Prime Minister in a coalition Government with National is being discussed informally among some MPs of both parties.

    Such an outcome would be possible if NZ First held the balance of power after the next election. Recent polling suggests that possibility cannot be discounted.

    Until now, the assumption had been that Mr Peters and his small party (13 MPs at present), could again be kingmakers after this year’s election, as they were in 1996, deciding whether the larger Labour or National led a coalition Government.

    But there is another scenario in which Mr Peters could be Prime Minister for half, if not all, of a three-year term of a National-New Zealand First coalition, even if he wins fewer MPs than National.

    The talents of National leader Don Brash, the former Reserve Bank Governor, would be turned to the finance portfolio.”

    The idea has been widely enough discussed for the weekly National Business Review to endorse it on Friday in an editorial saying: “Peters as Prime Minister with Brash and [John] Key on the finance front could be the potent mix the country needs.”

  121. Tim Ellis 121

    rob, on your first point, National declared on its donation returns money received from its trusts to the National Party. There was never a secret that the trusts existed. They go back many years. You won’t find the Spencer Trust on any of New Zealand First’s election returns. There is a difference between legal activities and illegal activities. If the money received from Bob Jones went to the Spencer Trust, and was spent on New Zealand First, then the Spencer Trust had to be declared as a donor.

    Contributes to NZF or some other fund? That’s not exactly a smoking gun when Peters denies it.

    Peters flatly denied receiving any money from Owen Glenn. Whether it went to his legal fund, the Spencer Trust, or the New Zealand First party is just playing cute with the public. He held up the sign, NO, got that sunshine? He further accused the Herald of forging the email. That is essentially dishonest. I agree, rob, Brash did get caught, and did have to resign. He didn’t get to face due process: public credibility shot, so he stepped down. Peters’ public credibility shot, and the prime minister protects him.

    It took a while to find the Spencer Trust quote, but here it is: “Mr Peters said he had not solicited the donation, as Sir Robert claimed. He said he had no involvement with the Spencer Trust, that he did not know what the trust had used the money for, and that he had not spoken to his brother about the trust.”

    Now, to me that looks like that statement to the Herald on 26 July is in direct conflict with Peter Williams’ statement to the SFO and the media today that all the money that was donated to the Spencer Trust was spent on NZ First activities. Or is there another interpretation?

  122. r0b 122

    gobsmacked – that’s like some spooky alternative time line story from an old episode of Star Trek. Scary! Now how am I going to get to sleep?

  123. lprent 123

    Tim:

    I don’t remember you lining up defending Winston then.

    No blogs at the time? By that stage the usenet forum alt.politics.nz etc were pretty unusable as well. There are also the age issues.

    I actually a bit annoyed that this thing with Winston and NZF has flared up. The problem is that he works best politically when he is the downtrodden underdog. He is now in a good position (assuming that the SFO and PC don’t find anything particularly damaging) to play that game again this election and head for 5%…

    I was hoping for terminal respectability to remove NZF from the political landscape. But if they do get back then I have no doubt that they will be in negotiation with the NZLP during coalition forming. Effectively the voters will have put them back in for that purpose.

    In the end what the Labour members are concerned with is getting their policies into action. Most would probably prefer doing that with the Greens. However you don’t get policy enacted while you’re on the opposition benches, so we’d expect negotiation with whomever the electorate throws up for us to work with to achieve our objectives.

    Ultimately the voters give the coalition choices under MMP, not the politicians. Key’s stance just makes it apparent to me that the National politicians still haven’t grasped that essential fact. Probably why he is wanting to change the electoral system.

    captcha: invested reserves

  124. r0b 124

    rob, on your first point, National declared on its donation returns money received from its trusts to the National Party.

    Yes – very clever – to keep the letter of the law while circumventing the intent. Go to this page here Tim:
    http://www.elections.org.nz/parties/donations_summary.html
    See all the donors listed? As they should be? Check out 2005 in particular. See National’s donors? Why no – it’s the “Trusts”. We are supposed to know who donates to our politicians Tim, and we don’t know who donates to National, because they did so via shell Trusts to launder the money. It stinks. Wake up.

    Peters flatly denied receiving any money from Owen Glenn.

    So he did, and it appears that it went to his legal defence fund. Same shell game as National play with their “Trusts”. See how it stinks?

    Peters’ public credibility shot, and the prime minister protects him.

    How? By having him stand down? Or by waiting for the due process of the SFO and the Privileges Committee? You’d prefer what exactly – the lynch mob that some have been calling for?

    It took a while to find the Spencer Trust quote, but here it is:

    Well then you misrepresented what he said Tim. What he said was usual politician speak, it sounds like it says something, but it doesn’t. Read it carefully and compare it with your incorrect claims about it.

  125. Tim Ellis 125

    Rob, the National Party trusts were not illegal before this year. They operated for many years without legislative change. Labour operates a legal defence trust fund as well, which anonymises donations. The SFO looked into National’s trust arrangements in 2002, and declared them lawful. It took five years for Labour to enact legislation to make them unlawful.

    So he did, and it appears that it went to his legal defence fund. Same shell game as National play with their “Trusts’. See how it stinks?

    Again there’s a difference rob. National declared its funding from the trusts on its donations returns, as required by law. Nick Smith declared his pecuniary interest as a beneficiary of a legal defence fund, as required by the registry of pecuniary interests. Winston Peters did neither. I have never seen any National Party leader flat-out deny National receiving money from a large donor, when subsequently proven to do so. Winston flatly denied receiving money from Owen Glenn. He did so, after the Prime Minister had informed him that Owen Glenn was certain that he did donate money.

    How? By having him stand down? Or by waiting for the due process of the SFO and the Privileges Committee? You’d prefer what exactly – the lynch mob that some have been calling for?

    Neither. The PM knew there was a conflict of evidence way back in February when Owen Glenn informed her of it. For six months she said she would not take any action against Winston Peters unless she saw evidence that he was being untruthful. I’ve never been prime minister before, and I never will, but I’d like to think if I were in her job, and my largest donor tells me that he’s made a substantial donation to another party, I’d do a little more than accept the foreign minister’s blind assurance that nothing of the sort took place.

    Helen Clark’s record is not to allow due process to follow. She has stood down more ministers than any other prime minister in New Zealand history. She did so on the basis of political expedience. Lianne Dalziel never faced due process for lying to the media: she got stood down. Taito Phillip Field was sacked before he faced a serious fraud inquiry. Dover Samuels was dumped from cabinet because of “rumours”. The test for Helen Clark has been whether there is a public scandal, and if so whether that public scandal is preventing the minister from properly carrying out their job. This scandal has been going on for the last six months, and Helen Clark hasn’t done her job, to fire him, until now. Even now, he hasn’t been sacked. He’s on full pay, with full perks, as a Minister. The only thing he’s been relieved of is his portfolio responsibilities. That’s a pretty comfortable spot to be in, when you’re fighting for your political survival eight weeks from an election, and you’ve still got all your ministerial staff, ministerial perks, ministerial allowances, ministerial housing etc to fight with.

    The money-part of the last quote is Winston telling the media he didn’t know what the Spencer Trust money was used for. He has now given an outright assurance that the Spencer Trust donations were all spent on New Zealand First party activities. You might be happy write that off as politician speak, but he knew about the Spencer Trust and trifled with the media to avoid exposure.

  126. r0b 126

    Rob, the National Party trusts were not illegal before this year.

    I didn’t say they were at illegal, I said they broke the intent of the law, and you haven’t denied that. Once again, the public is supposed to know who the donors are and they don’t. As per The Hollow men there is evidence and accusation of National Party policy for sale to for example the insurance industry. We would know a lot more if we knew who donated and we don’t. It stinks.

    Winston Peters did neither.

    Act and National have already had their best shot at Peters over this issue. They didn’t lay a glove on him:
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0808/S00223.htm
    I will not be at all surprised if one of the ongoing investigations into Peter’s turns up evidence of real impropriety. But as far as I am aware there is no smoking gun yet.

    I have never seen any National Party leader flat-out deny National receiving money from a large donor, when subsequently proven to do so.

    Well no, no one asks the Nats – though Colin Espiner almost worked up the nerve:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2008/02/22/time-to-tell-us-about-your-donors-national/
    But they have effectively listed their donors as anonymous via the Trusts, when they are well known to the National leadership, which is perilously close to a corrupt electoral practice.

    Neither. The PM knew there was a conflict of evidence way back in February

    If The Herald quote above is correct then than it is by no means clear. The PM has not protected Peters as you claim, Peters has been stood down and is being investigated. The PM actually delayed the dissolution of the SFO so that the enquiry into Peters could go ahead. How exactly is that protecting him?

    She has stood down more ministers than any other prime minister in New Zealand history.

    Yes, it’s a bugger having high standards.

    Lianne Dalziel never faced due process for lying to the media: she got stood down.

    And it is not yet clear that Peters has lied to the media. Read the Scoop Link above. He may have lied, lots of people are assuming he’s lied, but it is not yet proven.

    The money-part of the last quote is Winston telling the media he didn’t know what the Spencer Trust money was used for.

    Oh come on. He may well not have known in specific detail what it was used for. Accusations came up, he has looked until it, and now he does know. I’m sure that would be Winston’s story, and it may even be true. You said “Winston publicly said he knew nothing about the Spencer Trust, and that it had nothing to do with New Zealand First” – both your claims are not supported by what he actually said.

  127. Tim Ellis 127

    This really is a very interesting debate rob, and no doubt although everybody else is probably either out clubbing or asleep, it probably doesn’t do much for either of our reputations to be considered the two political geeks arguing away at the points on a Saturday night.

    As per The Hollow men there is evidence and accusation of National Party policy for sale to for example the insurance industry. We would know a lot more if we knew who donated and we don’t. It stinks.

    Hang on a moment. You’re criticising me, and the Nats, for rushing to judgement on Winston Peters’ behaviour, and not allowing due process to follow its course, and relying simply on media speculation as what might have happened. I haven’t heard anybody in the National Party say that there’s no point in the SFO completing its investigations. But here you are rushing to judgement on the National Party’s activities, based solely on Nicky Hagar’s speculation, after the National Party faced an SFO inquiry into its trusts (in 2002), and cleared the trusts of financial impropriety. The due process has been followed, and cleared the National Party. Yet you’re happy to form a contrary view.

    As for the insurance industry stuff, there hasn’t been any evidence put before any law-enforcement body in New Zealand to the effect that National committed a corrupt act by being bribed by the insurance industry. That’s the basis of what you’re saying. If there were, I’m sure it would have been done by now. What is it, two, three years since the Hollow Men came out? Still no bribery charges.

    I don’t know what you mean by the intent of the law. National Party trusts have been known about for many years, investigated, and cleared. It isn’t clear to me that the intent of the 1993 electoral act, supported by Labour, was to identify the end donor. It was intended to identify the last source of the funds. I’m not a lawyer, and you might have a better legal brain than me, but legislative intent goes to the heart of legislative interpretation. A judge’s job is to identify the intent of the law and apply it. No judge has ever found the National Party to have broken the intent of the law. Conversely, the SFO investigated and found that the National Party had specifically not broken the intent of the law.

    Meanwhile, it took five years for the Labour Party to change the intent of the law, to identify the original source of the donation. I actually agree with that change in the electoral act. In all this time, the New Zealand First Party has failed to comply with either the “intent”, or as you put it, the “letter” of the law. Money that came through the Spencer Trust was spent on New Zealand First purposes. That’s what we heard uncategorically from Peter Williams today. It wasn’t declared as a donation to New Zealand First. That’s what we’ve understood from every New Zealand First electoral donations return.

    Oh come on. He may well not have known in specific detail what it was used for.

    Oh come on! He said he didn’t know what it was used for. He didn’t say: “I don’t know the specific line items of expenditure that the donations were applied to. Is it credible for a leader of a political party that receives large sums of money from trusts, to say: “I don’t know what the money was used for.”? Clearly he knows. He doesn’t have to know the detail. The truthful answer is: “The money came to New Zealand First. I don’t know what specific items it was used for.”

    Lying to the media isn’t a criminal offence, either. No inquiry is investigating whether he did lie to the media. Helen Clark did not make her decision solely based on due process. Winston got too hot for her to handle.

  128. r0b 128

    This really is a very interesting debate rob, and no doubt although everybody else is probably either out clubbing or asleep, it probably doesn’t do much for either of our reputations to be considered the two political geeks arguing away at the points on a Saturday night.

    On those terms my reputation here was shot long long time ago. I like to work at night, it’s quiet (but I do let The Standard distract me). And I’m well past the age where I’m even remotely interested in clubbing.

    I haven’t heard anybody in the National Party say that there’s no point in the SFO completing its investigations.

    Well then listen up, because here is John Key rushing to judgement and claiming that the outcome of the SFO enquiry doesn’t matter:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1502733&objectid=10529783

    If the SFO cleared Mr Peters, it “doesn’t matter”, Mr Key said. It also did not matter if Parliament’s privileges committee cleared him as well.

    “The reality is that Winston Peters faces investigation not only by the SFO, but he also has to pass the test from the parliamentary privileges committee, and then go on and answer all the other many and varied allegations, which I would have thought if any of them are true would also be ruling him out as suitable to hold a [ministerial] warrant,” Mr Key said.

    As for the insurance industry stuff, there hasn’t been any evidence put before any law-enforcement body in New Zealand to the effect that National committed a corrupt act by being bribed by the insurance industry.

    No there hasn’t, though evidence is presented in The Hollow Men. The point is not that I’m interested in a judgement on this, the point is that donations are supposed to be public so that there is less risk of this kind of thing happening. National’s donations are not public because they are laundered through “Trusts”.

    It isn’t clear to me that the intent of the 1993 electoral act, supported by Labour, was to identify the end donor. It was intended to identify the last source of the funds.

    Ahh, no. Read the Act:

    214G Return of party donations
    (1) Every secretary of a political party registered under Part 4 must ensure that the Commission receives by 30 April in each year—
    (a) a return (which must be on a form provided by the Elect­oral Commission) setting out—
    (i) the name and address of each person who made a party donation in the year ending with the imme­diately preceding 31 December and the amount of each such donation

    That’s the person who made the donation, not “last source of the funds” – pardon me that is a rather desperate clutching at straws.

    Conversely, the SFO investigated and found that the National Party had specifically not broken the intent of the law.

    2002? Sounds like another issue entirely – references please?

    In all this time, the New Zealand First Party has failed to comply with either the “intent’, or as you put it, the “letter’ of the law. Money that came through the Spencer Trust was spent on New Zealand First purposes. That’s what we heard uncategorically from Peter Williams today. It wasn’t declared as a donation to New Zealand First. That’s what we’ve understood from every New Zealand First electoral donations return.

    It may well be that Peters, like National, has kept the letter of the law while evading its intent – you are rushing to a judgement that neither the SFO or the PC has made yet. And we are going round in circles at this point.

    Oh come on! He said he didn’t know what it was used for … The truthful answer is: “The money came to New Zealand First. I don’t know what specific items it was used for.’

    Sorry, I still think Peters has wriggle room there. He can know the purpose of the trust without knowing what (specifically) it used the money for.

    Helen Clark did not make her decision solely based on due process. Winston got too hot for her to handle.

    Winston has been too hot to handle for days, and HC resisted incredible pressure to stand him down sooner that this. But she followed due process.

    Anyway, Goodnight.

  129. Rex Widerstrom 129

    gobsmacked:

    It’s Rambo, played by Noddy.

    On the assumption you didn’t steal that from someone else, that’s a classic quote that’s worth inscribing on something (even if only the plinth of a camoflage-wearing John Key bobblehead doll) 😀

    I, on the other hand, will be stealing it, and recycling it in a campaign somewhere (probably via a candidate of whom you’d heartily disapprove *evil laughter*).

    randal:

    the creepy faction managed to deny natural justice and due process to Winston Peters.

    Well boo hoo. You mean like using Parliamentary privilege to impugn the reputations of dozens of people throughout your career? And then never having the guts to repeat anything where you can be sued?

    Robinsod:

    I loath Winston but after this I could almost be convinced to vote for him.

    Of course, because what NZ really needs is effective, principled, liberal MPs and Ministers with the country’s best interests at heart. As toad points out above, if the PM had any respect for those qualities she might have tossed the Greens a bone. But instead she’s ensured Winston keeps his Ministerial salary, perks and large staff who – with no Ministerial work to do – can now devote themselves to spending your money and mine on NZF’s relection campaign.

    Yes, let’s vote for more of that, shall we?

  130. higherstandard 130

    Another day and still Winston’s supporters on this site cling to the due process excuse and query whether he has in fact lied.

    Assuming their is nothing out of order with the Spencer trust why has NZF declared no donations?

    Assuming Winston genuinely didn’t know that he’d been helped out by Owen Glenn why did he categorically deny that he had and during those denials demand the resignations of several reporters ?

    The man is a prevaricating poppinjay.

  131. Anita 131

    hs,

    Assuming their is nothing out of order with the Spencer trust why has NZF declared no donations?

    The electoral finance rules in play at the time allowed a donation to be split into multiple $9,999.99 chunks and not declared.

  132. randal 132

    and you sir have your ears painted on and your fingers on 10. if you think that anyone in their right mind is going to read any of the screeds you have so laboriously cut and pasted in here then you are a biggger fool than I thought.

  133. Anita 133

    randal,

    I’m going to assume that isn’t directed at me (due to my lack of sir-ness), but that doesn’t tell me who you are insulting 🙂

  134. higherstandard 134

    Anita are you saying that he’s got payment from parties laundered it through the Spencer trust and they’ve then put them through to NZF in sums lower than $9999 is that legal ?

    Why don’t any of the larger parties do the same thing ?

    While not liking Ralston that much I though he summed up the overall situation with Peter’s well.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10529821

    “it promises to be great theatre if nothing else.”

    Pretty much sums up what WP has become – a publicly paid prevaricating poppinjay

    mmmm nice alliteration

  135. Anita 135

    hs,

    Anita are you saying that he’s got payment from parties laundered it through the Spencer trust and they’ve then put them through to NZF in sums lower than $9999 is that legal ?

    Under the old rules it was legal, yes. The rule was any “anonymous” donation $10k or below did not need to be declared, so big donations were split into mutiple “anonymous” donations (you can check out the old rules here).

    Why don’t any of the larger parties do the same thing ?

    They did 🙂

    Have you read The Hollow Men?

  136. It seems though that Mike Williams has been on his knees to Owen Glenn, not 2 months ago, for more money!

    http://darrenrickard.blogspot.com/2008/08/labour-begs-for-more.html

    That defies belief considering Labour’s public criticism and embarrassment of the man.

    It shows just how disparate and desperate Labour now is.

    Meanwhile the Labour Party Blog is talking about an irrelevant self constructed and self important “social report” like it is accurate or an issue.

    What a joke this government has become.

  137. higherstandard 137

    Aniat

    I think we might be talking at cross purposes again I was referring to the register here.

    http://www.elections.org.nz/record/donations/

    Are you suggesting that Labour and National have more money in $9999 lots that hasn’t been declared.

  138. higherstandard 138

    Bugger still can’t edit.

    Darren I find this very hard to believe do you have any links to the story in the MSM ?

  139. higherstandard 140

    Ye Gods …… clearly they have more cheek than GB’s bottom.

    I suppose it explains why they were happy to suggest he was confused and deluded about the WP issue in the house – he’s obviously not going to be giving anymore donations to the present government.

    I wonder if they promised him an honorary consulship if he donated just one more time ?

  140. Anita 141

    hs,

    I think we might be talking at cross purposes again I was referring to the register here.

    http://www.elections.org.nz/record/donations/

    Are you suggesting that Labour and National have more money in $9999 lots that hasn?t been declared.

    I don’t think we’re talking at cross purposes 🙂

    If you look at pre EFA returns (e.g. 1996-2006) you will see that there are no amounts of $10k or less declared.

    So yes, one can cheerfully assume that all the major parties had $10k and lower donations which they did not put on their return.

    One can also find evidence that at least National and their backers washed their donations in the same way that NZ First seems to have done (by using trusts and by playing threshold and donation splitting games).

  141. higherstandard 142

    Anita

    Just to get this clear are you suggesting.

    1. that National and Labour have large numbers of non-declared donations of $9999 or less over and above those that are included on the register ?

    2. that like NZ First the Nats and Labour have taken donations of more than 10k and put them into a trust and broken the donations down to chunks of less than 10k to avoid declaring them.

    3. or are you suggesting both scenarios ?

  142. bill brown 143

    What’s this bunch of opinionated crap on the front page of the SST this morning?

    The “journalist” who wrote it obviously has a bee in her bonnet about something – intoning “…a turning point for this government”.

    I wonder what proper news story had to be pulled at the last minute meaning they needed to fill the blank space with this – was this why it was delivered late this morning?

  143. jaymam 144

    If it took only 25 hours for the SFO to investigate the 2,500 Winebox documents, it should take less than a day to investigate the few transactions involved with Winston Peters.

    The SFO cannot be trusted and should not be doing the current investigation about the person who has quite rightly caused their imminent demise.

    Clearly the structure of the SFO as set up originally cannot produce an accurate result.

    http://wysiwygnews.com/1997_News/1997February23.html

    In the commission of inquiry into various tax matters (known as the winebox inquiry) it was revealed that the Serious Fraud Office officers who were understood to have done the work, spent no more than 25 hours investigating the more than 2,500 documents which relate to the extremely complex schemes. Things got worse when Susan Pilgrim, a former senior prosecutor testified that when staff asked what was happening to the investigation, and which lawyer was assigned to the case, Director, Charles Sturt got angry and announced that he was looking into the matter himself. Under oath, Ms Pilgrim testified that the reaction of other staff was one of ridicule since Sturt was not believed to be competent to undertake an inquiry into complex financial transactions.

    Director of the Serious Fraud Office, Charles Sturt has conceded to the Winebox inquiry that his office made no full investigation of the Winebox documents. This apparently lays him open to charges of having caused parliament to be misled. He advised the then minister, Paul East who subsequently told the house, that an investigation of the winebox documents revealed no evidence of any criminal activity. Sturt said at the time that his investigators had examined hundreds of documents. He now concedes that the assertions were “not strictly correct.” Winston Peters who was then a lone maverick alleging dirty deeds responded at that time with disbelief, and said that if they had examined the documents and found nothing, Sturt should be fired for incompetence. In an attempt to determine Sturt’s ability to understand the documents, the commission asked him to explain the transactions at issue. Sturt failed miserably.

  144. jaymam 145

    I thought the name Gib Beattie, the SFO’s acting director, sounded familiar. How come he is still in the SFO at all, let alone in such a high position?

    He was involved in the original Winebox fake investigation and should NOT be involved in any way in investigating Winston Peters.
    Check the index of The Paradise Conspiracy for all the Beattie references.

    e.g. page 2:

    Gib Beattie couldn’t make up his mind whether to gloat or snarl, so he mixed the two expressions, his ears and nose appearing to twitch in the battle for facial control. His eyes, however, glittered with hate.

    “Wishart, you bastard. You bastard! We’ve got you now!”

    I barely had time to react – Serious Fraud Office investigator Steve Drain, a former cop, chose that moment to lunge across the seat in a bid to grab the camera and rip the film out. We fought briefly as I lashed out to stop him gaining a secure grip on the Olympus.

    “Back off pal!,” I warned as menacingly as I could muster, “You don’t have any authority down here.” Perhaps realising that entering my vehicle and attempting to snatch the camera had overstepped the mark, Drain beat a retreat from the interior. Beattie, too, was backing away by now, the sneer appearing permanently etched on his face.
    “We’ve got you, you bastard. Your day is coming soon, boy!,” he threatened.

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