Petrol, Zero Carbon, and 15,000 Submissions

Written By: - Date published: 7:21 am, October 9th, 2018 - 139 comments
Categories: australian politics, climate change, Conservation, energy, Environment, global warming, greens, jacinda ardern, james shaw, sustainability - Tags:

Get ready, according to the AA, for petrol at $3 a liter for Christmas.

Taxes make up about 43% of the cost. Anti tax petitions are circulating.

We also need to get ready for James Shaw’s Zero Carbon bill, with its measured impact on electricity and petrol prices.

Six weeks ago ago I noted how Australian PM Turnbull was rolled due to carbon pricing and offsetting: the politics of climate change decapitating our most important international relationship is a very serious development.

When Turnbull fell, the new Morrison government suggested its sole focus for energy would be “price price price”; emissions reduction with lower household bills. This focus was to be complemented by the government acceptance of recommendations from the ACCC. That included a default safety net for retail prices so customers can easily understand what they are paying and how claims about percentage reductions translate into real dollars.

The most the Australian Federal government can now hope to achieve is to persuade enough voters that Labor’s promise of a much higher percentage of electricity renewables will lead to higher prices and less reliability. Which is as stupid as claiming that electricity from the sun or wind is somehow coming “free”.

Energy is a big complicated issue to fix both in Australia and New Zealand. Those industrial customers like BHP or Fonterra are reliant on gas and coal being available at what they consider reasonable prices (I find it hard to believe their sustainability promises).

Regrettably so far such large consumers have more clout than the tens of thousands of households who in April this year were screaming in the dark from Vector’s insecure network or pensioners shutting down their one bar heater in Otago and Southland through another winter.

Minister Shaw has astutely focused his Zero Carbon bill engagements near-exclusively at the powerful, not at the householder. The same tactic was used to introduce the new fuel taxes.

Summer 2018 is I fear the final window before New Zealand electricity generators start pricing in Shaw’s bill. But it’s also the moment where taxes get questionable when petrol is at $3 a liter when your disposable holiday dollar is stretched hard for the family holiday.

Who decides what’s fair? Certainly not the Electricity Commission who merely seek justification for wholesale prices. And there is no petroleum price regulator so the state can extract what it likes from this near-monopoly product. We have no price protection for energy.

With now no future local petroleum supply we have total vulnerability to international oil prices and to government taxes, for ever.

Between petrol price increases, electricity price increases, and Shaw’s impending carbon emissions bill, is one almighty policy collision.

With 15,000 submissions, the bill will enable households to connect all their energy costs to government intervention. They aren’t yet. But they will.

It’s going to be the big end of town supporting the bill, versus consumers screaming.

The aim is to pass this legislation by mid-2019. Hopefully Shaw and Ardern will land it better than Turnbull did.

Happy winter 2019.

139 comments on “Petrol, Zero Carbon, and 15,000 Submissions ”

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  1. Dukeofurl 1
    9 October 2018 at 7:39 am

    “I noted how Australian PM Turnbull was rolled due to carbon pricing and offsetting:”

    really ? I didnt think you made that case at all. The party polling was in the dumps seemed the likely cause and they were expecting a new face would give a bump before the election – they only had to look over the tasman to see how that works. Oh they had long simmering factional problems as well. So carbon pricing was just a case of seeing what you wanted to see as Turnbull was no different to Morrison regarding the pickle they were in regarding rising electricity prices –

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    9 October 2018 at 7:44 am

    The transition is getting trickier. No Right Turn points out that Labour are still operating as part of the problem while trying to create the impression in the public mind that they are part of the solution: “Labour wants to take it out of the petrol companies’ end, by cutting their margins. National meanwhile wants to take it out on us, by cutting fuel taxes (which means less money to pay for roads and crash victims… by focusing on cutting prices, both are effectively saying they want to increase the use of petrol, increase emissions, and increase global temperatures. Or to put it another way: both parties want to destroy the world.”
    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/10/we-should-be-trying-to-raise-petrol.html

    Business as usual. Democracy forces major parties into bullshit. It’s the only way they can be politically successful. Market failure: electric cars are still too expensive for most people. Allow prices to continue to ratchet up, people can’t afford to drive the cars they currently own. Emissions go down, poll support for the govt ebbs.

    Politicians & commentators have to spit the dummy and acknowledge that addiction psychology has the masses in thrall to the system. Honesty is the best policy. The masses have to get weaned off their drug addiction. Appropriate political leadership is to start telling them that. Not keep pretending that their addiction is okay. Eliminate petrolhead culture totally. Make motor-racing illegal unless the vehicles are electric. Politicians must publicly describe motor racing as a culture of juvenile delinquents. No more tolerance of such parasites.

    • Antoine 2.1
      9 October 2018 at 7:47 am

      Motor racing is not the enemy, that’s silly. How much of our emissions come from motor racing? Would it be as much as 0.1%? I doubt it.

      Your plan, if followed, would simply make the Government ridiculous.

      A.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        9 October 2018 at 7:56 am

        What you aren’t factoring in is the cultural effect of the behaviour: normalising wasteful use of fossil fuels. The behavioural change required to solve the global problem can only be led by appropriate role models.

        • Antoine 2.1.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 7:59 am

          Rather than leading people, your idea would create a backlash.

          A.

          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 8:15 am

            Bring it on. Lash the fuckers real good. These scumbags have been getting away with it far too long.

            • Dukeofurl 2.1.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2018 at 9:07 am

              Oh playing the Stalinism card are we ?

              Back in the 1950s were you a ‘tankie’ as well.

              • Dennis Frank …
                9 October 2018 at 10:14 am

                Last person to call me stalinist was Jeanette Fitzsimons, think it was ’94. 😎 Back in the 1950s I was actually a kiddie..

        • Ross 2.1.1.2
          9 October 2018 at 8:06 am

          Dennis

          Being wasteful is flying half way round the world unnecessarily. The PM and many MPs do a fair bit of flying. If politicians want public buy-in, they will need to lead by example.

          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2.1
            9 October 2018 at 8:18 am

            Yes, I agree. What’s more, tourism as an industry is now a target on the same basis. Yet more effing drug addiction. It will have to become government policy to force our tourist industry to become carbon neutral. Given the lack of electric planes, that’ll be fun to watch!

      • Adrian 2.1.2
        9 October 2018 at 10:16 am

        Yeah, that banning idea is a result of the publicity around Bathurst and Brendon Hartley at the Japanese GP.
        Nothing tlike ignorance,eh.
        Bathurst Cars are 85% alcohol and the F1 cars use a brew that is light on actual oil and closer to avgas as F1 has always led the research efforts towards safety features and efficiency in ordinary cars.

    • bwaghorn 2.2
      9 October 2018 at 1:16 pm

      I don’t know that labour really want to lower the companies profit , my impression is that labour where getting thumped about the head by national and it proxies on fuel tax so Ardern has very deftly shifted the blame to the companies . Nice bit of politicking imho.

      • greywarshark 2.2.1
        9 October 2018 at 9:11 pm

        What can our PM do? These are private companies. Cars and motor travel do need to be restrained, lessened , dropping exchange rate and rising oil prices bring that effect.

        • gsays 2.2.1.1
          10 October 2018 at 1:46 am

          (He peeks into the room, looks round and whispers…)
          Nationalise the oil companies, then put into place a plan akin to Bill’s idea from a few months back.

          While we are at it, let the smelter owners know they have 12 months of subsidised power then it’s market rates.

          Without evidence I am sure the oil companies have spread the jaffa tax all round the country, undermining the intention of the levy.

        • bwaghorn 2.2.1.2
          10 October 2018 at 7:00 pm

          I’m not dissing her it’s the first time I’ve thought she’s got the goods for leadership. And no I don’t think she can do more than try to jaw prices down .

  3. Antoine 3
    9 October 2018 at 7:44 am

    We need to be clear whether we _want_ energy prices to go up (to drive conservation and efficiency) or whether it is just an unfortunate side effect.

    If the former then the Govt should communicate that prices are _meant_ to go up, this is by design.

    If the latter then perhaps we could think about alternative cost recovery approaches that don’t end up on the shoulders of the end consumer.

    A.

  4. BM 4
    9 October 2018 at 7:49 am

    This government is pretty shakey at the moment $3 dollar gas will destroy it.
    Outright win for National in 2020 coming up.

    As for Ardern blaming the oil companies for high petrol prices, does she actually believe the bull shit she spouts?

    The voter certainly doesn’t.

    • dV 4.1
      9 October 2018 at 7:58 am

      AND how will the NATZ then fix the $3 price in 2021?
      Price control?
      Take tax off?
      Control exchange rate
      Nationalise the fuel network?

        • dV 4.1.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 8:14 am

          Yep cut the tax
          Tough about roads!

          Why are there up to 30c/L difference between different suppliers?

          • BM 4.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 8:33 am

            Tough about roads? fucks sake they’ve cancelled all the RONS, this government has made it rather clears road are evil.

            Which is why petrol taxes are now going towards projects like the worlds slowest “rapid transport system” and cycleways no one uses.

            Why are there up to 30c/L difference between different suppliers?

            Different business models

            • Dukeofurl 4.1.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2018 at 9:04 am

              Not cancelled all the RONs.

              national ran short on its promises ‘over 10 years’ So the Holiday Highway is just started construction last summer and same goes for Transmission Gully

              Transmission Gully will cost the government $14 per car each way based on the fixed $125 mill yearly cost to pay back the PPP.
              I dont theink the motorists can afford more RONS like that as the Holiday highway will be something like as well based on traffic flows.

              The one project national did cancel back in 2012 was the Manawatu Gorge replacement option and instead went for the ‘cheaper’ Gorge rd upgrade. Thats been $200 mill down the drain as that road is permanently closed.

            • cleangreen 4.1.1.1.1.2
              9 October 2018 at 3:14 pm

              Why don’t we use more rail then????

              The Climate change report said we need to use other forms of transport now like trains?

              This morning we watched PM Jacinda Ardern struggle with the questions asked of her during the AM show as Duncan Garner asked Jacinda “what is the time line has the Government set for changes to our carbon emissions to save our future” and Jacinda you were definitely struggling with an answer.

              Here is a simple method to counter that question.

              The answer was given by the other guest on the AM show after you PM by Bronwyn Hayward is Associate Professor of Political Science and International Relations at the University of Canterbury Hayward was New Zealand lead author serving on UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

              Professor Bronwyn Haywood said that we need to now to “change the way we move our freight and ourselves around our country”.

              Phil Twyford was also on the news on the AM show this morning 9/10/18 announcing that millions will be put into the upgrading of the Wairarapa rail line service for freight and passenger services for restoring regional rail policy finally.

              So we in HB/Gisborne don’t want RONs BM we require the same level of funding at least to adequately restore our ‘rundown rail services too as Wairarapa got today.

              We are like Auckland and other cities as our cities are regional and far from main centres too so we need passenger rail returned to Gisborne Napier regions as the elders and young can travel safely again by rail !!!

              Get it now?

              Our roads are unsafe with a very high ‘truck freight industrial activity’.

              https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/news/dollar96m-funding-for-wairarapa-rail/ar-BBO7qo9

        • Clive Macann 4.1.1.2
          9 October 2018 at 9:13 am

          Very funny, BM, an extremely Nats biased comment.
          Facts.
          NZ fuel tax is around about 1/2 the cost.
          NZ is the 6th lowest taxed fuel in the OECD.
          Most are around the 2/3rds mark.
          Based on a wages comparison, fuel is cheaper now than in the early ’70’s.
          Also cars are way more fuel efficient that back then.
          Petrol is $2.05 outside my gate in the middle of nowhere.
          ChCh is around the $2.50 mark.
          Considering that the tax is pretty much the same on both,
          it is the fuel supplier grabbing the extra 45c mark up.
          Adhern is right.

    • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 4.2
      9 October 2018 at 8:01 am

      Oh, well said BM!

      With the UN climate assessment giving us less than 12 years to ‘save the species’ let’s continue to play party politics until the rising sea levels lap at our doorsteps.

      When will you Right wing fucknuts realise this is serious! THIS IS SERIOUS!

      If rising fuel prices stop people using their cars, good! So long as the government steps in and provides alternative transport – like John Minto’s slogan for the ChCh mayoralty – “Free and Frequent.”

      • BM 4.2.1
        9 October 2018 at 8:11 am

        If rising fuel prices stop people using their cars, good! So long as the government steps in and provides alternative transport – like John Minto’s slogan for the ChCh mayoralty – “Free and Frequent.”

        New Zealand is not set up for public transport.

        • mickysavage 4.2.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 8:43 am

          Well the left keep advancing it and the right keep destroying it so no.

          • BM 4.2.1.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 9:01 am

            New Zealand will never be a public transport orientated type of country, all our cities and towns have been designed around the motor car.

            And rightly so, we’re too spread out and we don’t have the population density to make public transport a financially viable option.
            As well as the fact apart from Wellington people don’t work in one centralized place, people in NZ work all over the place, public transport cannot service this sort of transport pattern.

            If the major reason for public transport is around climate change put the money into electric vehicles, don’t waste time and resources trying to force New Zealanders into an unworkable way of life, work with what we’ve got and what works for us.

            • mickysavage 4.2.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2018 at 9:14 am

              That is what the right think.

              It is why the last Government mucked around with the city rail link and refused to build it until they were brought screaming and kicking to the realisation that it was needed and rational.

              The right are the problem. They should step aside and let the left sort the problem out or adopt our proposals in full. This is the only way that New Zealand will have a chance of meeting its carbon change obligations.

              • BM …
                9 October 2018 at 9:22 am

                Yep, you want everyone living in high-density apartment complexes, where every day you put on your grey onesie and take the state-run train to the state-run factory where you build widgets.

                Oh, the glorious socialist bliss,

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  9 October 2018 at 9:34 am

                  You do understand that what you just described is what now exists right?

                  Apartments have existed for hundreds of years, tend to be popular and are cost effective compared to stand alone housing. That’s why capitalists build them – they make more profit.
                  Go to Maccas and watch all the employees wearing the same uniform. And that applies across many industries.
                  And watch all the sheep driving to work everyday in their highly expensive, highly inefficient cars.

                  Why do the RWNJs always insist that the highly inefficient uniformity that they enforce upon people is better?

                • millsy …
                  9 October 2018 at 7:15 pm

                  Dont worry BM, in your world the trains are run by Asian state backed sovereign wealth funds, along with the apartment buildings and factory, and the roads, water, etc.

                • mike …
                  9 October 2018 at 9:21 pm

                  who remembers the oil shocks of the early 70s and muldoons car less day if new Zealand doesn’t modernize its infrastructure and diversify its transport options you are leaving the country and economy vulnerable , oil has to be imported in and paid for in us dollars only a fool puts all there eggs in one basket or a nat.

            • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 4.2.1.1.1.2
              9 October 2018 at 9:17 am

              You said it all, BM – “a financially viable option.”

              The classic neolib response – financially viable! That fw Brownlee said a business case couldn’t be made for rail transport from Rangiora to Rolleston – the dollars and cents!

              Well, big business is saying, effectively, a business case can’t be made for saving the planet – so . . .

              Run the buses, free and frequent – people will adapt, even in NZ. Hike petrol to $4, or $5 a litre and use the extra to pay for the buses. Make the rich pay for the privilege of driving!

              If we don’t do something radical, we’re fucked – literally.

              • Ed …
                9 October 2018 at 9:47 am

                Tax car ownership

                • cleangreen …
                  9 October 2018 at 3:27 pm

                  Ed,
                  Simple answer is to Increase truck road RUC (Road User Charges) as they are ruining local roads with now, by using overweight 63 tonne trucks and were not supposed to do on primary light road loading diamentions like local roads and rural roads when the HPMV rules of use came out.

                  Now they are driving 63 tonne trucks everywhere unchecked causing such widespread destruction on all our highways like Highway 2 as these roads are so bloody dangerous now because they are full of potholes and uneven surfacing with valleys of water every time it rains our cars loose control when we hit the ‘rainwater rivers’ along our roads and fill all the potholes now.

                  it is so unsustainable now that roads are bankrupting our country with some of the heaviest trucks carried on our roads now.

                  • Ed …
                    9 October 2018 at 3:32 pm

                    Yes – and increase significantly.

                  • KJT …
                    9 October 2018 at 4:32 pm

                    Just charge them what they actually cost.

                    Every one talks about the cost of rail. What about the cost of not having it.

                    Meanwhile, coastal ships have to pay full price for the infrastructure they use, ports, at a rate that gives owners a profit, including, on their deemed value if sold for housing.

                    Imagine if trucks had to pay for roads on the same basis. Full cost, plus the opportunity cost, of all those roads being unavailable to sell for housing. The screams from the trucking lobby would outdo the oil industries.

                    • cleangreen …
                      9 October 2018 at 4:57 pm

                      Yep Ed and KJT

                      Down on 13.2 I have now added the solution and answer to the transport system in NZ with rail being viable in any location now so truck interests can’t say rail is not “viable” as they use it often, so by using “mixed trains” have you heard of them?

                      Here is a link to Mixed trains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_train

                      Here again is the link as to where they are still used and we need to do this ASAP not build more roads for trucks as they (RTF) Ken Shirley refuses to accept trucks should pay their way now for the massive road amage they are causing us to suffer with.

                      IPENZ studied the road cost and claim now Trucks only pay 56% of their cost of “surface costs” of road damage while a car (private user) pays 66% and 8% is paid by local taxpayers also

                      Rail pays 77% of the rail maintenance also in the IPENZ study.

                      So trucks should pay 77% at least now.

                      Fair’s fair.

            • Dukeofurl 4.2.1.1.1.3
              9 October 2018 at 9:23 am

              Financially Viable ?

              Transmission Gully project will cost the Land Transport Fund $14 per car each way to repay the PPP when it opens. Its a $125 mill per year fixed charge.

              Thats NOT financially viable , just like most of the other RONS. Holiday Highway might even be closer to $20 per car but that will at least have a nominal toll of $2.50 or so.

            • mauÄ« 4.2.1.1.1.4
              9 October 2018 at 10:06 am

              Our cities and towns were designed around the horse and railroad actually. Which is a good thing because we can go back to those as the oil age combusts.

              Electric vehicles still take a tonne of fossil fuel to produce and will probably be increasingly unaffordable to consumers.

              • Carolyn_Nth …
                9 October 2018 at 10:27 am

                Our cities and towns were designed around the horse and railroad actually.

                Initially, they were designed around waka, sailing and steam ships. That’s why so many are built next to rivers and harbours.

                Horse and railroad enabled the expansion of many towns and cities.

        • Ed 4.2.1.2
          9 October 2018 at 9:45 am

          Then set it up.
          Very quickly.

      • Humma 4.2.2
        9 October 2018 at 8:43 am

        That is a whole lot of BS. They spout that same nonsense after every summit (which they tend to all fly to I see). Every year its x number of years to save the planet. Didn’t Al Gore spout of about 10 years to go more than 10 years ago? Wasn’t the Arctic supposed to be ice free by now. It has stabilised and since 2007 has not shrunk further.

        • mickysavage 4.2.2.1
          9 October 2018 at 8:49 am

          Computer says no.

          In any event cherrypicking one piece of data and claiming that a world wide phenomenon is plain dumb.

          For instance Greenland is having some phenomenal peaks in melting ice …

          http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/

          Antarctica has lost over a thousand gigatonnes of ice in the past ten years …

          https://www.science.org.au/curious/earth-environment/how-antarctic-melt-contributing-global-sea-level

          • alwyn 4.2.2.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 10:22 am

            A thousand gigatons in only 10 years.
            The sky is falling.
            That article you have linked to says that there are 25 times 10 to the power of 15 tonnes of ice in the Antarctic Icecap.
            Therefore we have lost, if the article is accurate, about 10 to the power 12 tonnes in the last 10 years. It will all melt, at that rate, in only another 250,000 years.
            The amount lost is only the rounding error.

          • Humma 4.2.2.1.2
            9 October 2018 at 11:53 am

            That’s the thing with the gigatonnes rhetoric. a thousand gigatonnes is like nothing when compared to the amount that is there. Sounds big, looks big if compared to swimming pools. But juxtaposed with the Antarctica, its nothing less than a drop in a bucket.

            • Incognito 4.2.2.1.2.1
              9 October 2018 at 11:37 pm

              But juxtaposed with the Antarctica, its nothing less than a drop in a bucket.

              So, according to the article the Antarctic melt contributes 0.2 to 0.3 mm to the ocean each year.

              I was bored and decided to calculate how much a drop of water would contribute to a typical 22-L bucket.

              The answer: ca. 0.0007 mm.

              In other words, the ice melt is roughly equivalent with 283 to 424 drops in a bucket each year.

              • Antoine …
                9 October 2018 at 11:43 pm

                Stop trying to do the math yourselves and let the actual scientists work out the sea level rises in cm

                A.

                • Incognito …
                  9 October 2018 at 11:54 pm

                  I did! I used the figures from the link in the comment @ 4.2.2.1 and it all looked pretty sciency to me but what do I know?

                  Here’s the link again, just for you, so that you can check my numbers; please let me know if I made any mistakes 😉

                  https://www.science.org.au/curious/earth-environment/how-antarctic-melt-contributing-global-sea-level

                  • Antoine …
                    10 October 2018 at 12:35 am

                    Was more talking to alwyn and humma. I’m pretty sceptical of you and your bucket though.

                    A.

                    • Incognito …
                      10 October 2018 at 8:26 am

                      Well, you didn’t make it clear whom you were talking to and you replied to a comment of mine.

                      Your scepticism is based on ignorance; you don’t know my credentials and you haven’t checked my bucket calculations, which any third former should be able to do.

                      You criticise and comment here but add very little of substance IMHO. Just saying.

                    • Antoine …
                      10 October 2018 at 10:00 am

                      At least I don’t carry round a bucket with me

                      A.

                    • Antoine …
                      10 October 2018 at 10:07 am

                      Also, your bucket analogy is incredibly misleading.

                      A.

                    • Incognito …
                      10 October 2018 at 9:42 pm

                      Sure, except it was Humma, not me, @ 4.2.2.1.2 who said “[b]ut juxtaposed with the Antarctica, its nothing less than a drop in a bucket.” Please, do keep up and pay attention, especially when you parachute yourself into an online conversation.

                      In what way do you feel misled by the bucket, Antoine?

                    • Antoine …
                      11 October 2018 at 12:03 am

                      (sigh)

                      When someone says that “a thousand gigatonnes compared to Antarctica is like a drop in a bucket”, they mean that the ratio of 1000 GT to the total mass of the Antarctic ice sheet is similar to the ratio of the volume of a drop to the volume of a bucket (i.e. very small in both cases).

                      Your analogy seems designed to suggest that the ratio of 1000 GT to the total mass of the Antarctic ice sheet is similar to the ratio of the volume of 283-424 drops to the volume of a bucket. But this is not the case.

                      In fact, your 283-424 is the number of drops that it would take to fill a bucket to the 0.2-0.3mm line (ignoring meniscus issues) which is a quite different quantity.

                      A.

                    • Incognito …
                      11 October 2018 at 11:24 pm

                      Humma used the drop in a bucket as a metaphor to mean that it was insignificantly small.

                      However, in the scientific article linked in Mickysavage’s comment they calculated that the Antarctic ice melt leads to a rise of the level of the oceans of 0.2 to 0.3 mm each year. So, I decided to calculate what the analogous rise is in a 22-L bucket with water – the bucket being the oceans: to raise the level in that bucket you’ll need 283 to 424 drops – the analogous volume of water added to the oceans each year by the ice melt – and the meniscus has got nothing with that rise. It is a perfect analogy with a huge scaling factor.

      • Ed 4.2.3
        9 October 2018 at 9:44 am

        Close motorway lanes for buses.
        Make all public transport free.
        Add further tax increases for petrol for cars.

    • Dennis Frank 4.3
      9 October 2018 at 8:11 am

      “The Government is fast-tracking a law change that will require petrol companies to open up their books to the country’s competition watchdog. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is prioritising the passing of the Commerce Amendment Bill, which compels petrol companies to give the Commerce Commission the information it needs to understand how the market functions.” https://www.interest.co.nz/business/96231/pm-responds-outcry-over-high-petrol-prices-rushing-through-law-change-requiring

      So the plan seems to be a. ascertain if the oil cartel is operating, and b. figure out how much of their high prices can be deemed unreasonable, then c. legislate to enforce reasonable prices. Kinda like recycling socialism, eh?

      Given that Robertson wants the govt to compete with the cartel in the ongoing extraction of money from consumers battle, will the govt over-rule him by reducing their tax take? Depends how far back into traditional socialism they’re headed.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 4.4
      9 October 2018 at 8:13 am

      Yep, govt will be blamed regardless of actual cause.

      In reality National would have been similar although at least they weren’t immediately tacking on new tax like Labour is. Petrol tax is taking candy from a baby – easy to do but lots of screaming involved

    • Cinny 4.5
      9 October 2018 at 8:53 am

      BM didn’t judith make a big deal about going after the fuel companies when national was in office.

      What came of that?

      A study and no action.

  5. cleangreen 5
    9 October 2018 at 8:00 am

    University of Canterbury’s Associate Professor Bronwyn Hayward featured on ‘the Governmental climate change panel’ was this morning on the Duncan Garner AM show today, and she has rightly now admitted that we need to change the way we are moving freight around NZ now.

    Thank You Bronwyn for your voice to wake up the PM Jacinda about this.

    http://cubic.co.nz/rail-saved-new-zealand-1-5-billion-year-study-shows/

    This morning on the AM show the Minister of Transport has announced that a large amount of Government money will be spent on restoring the Wairarapa rail service.

    At CEAC we now call on government to reopen the Gisborne rail service so we can be again be also connected to “the capital connection” passenger service as they promised before the last election please as HB/Gisborne needs the same funding from Government as you have given to Wairarapa rail for all the same reasons.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/101399396/hopes-alive-for-a-better-more-frequent-capital-connection

    Bronwyn Hayward is Associate Professor of Political Science and International Relations at the University of Canterbury and an international expert on sustainability, climate change and youth politics. Hayward is Director of UC’s Sustainable Citizenship and Civic Imagination: Hei Puāwaitanga research group and leads a study following children and young people growing up in 7 world cities, with CUSP the UK Centre for Understanding Sustainable Prosperity, at Surrey University.

    As a political scientist, Hayward was the only New Zealand lead author serving on UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 1.5 Special Report which considers how to implement the Paris Agreement to hold climate change to well below 2 degees of global warming while strengthening sustainable development and eradicating poverty.

    https://www.eventfinda.co.nz/2018/climate-change-and-no-change-with-bronwyn-hayward/christchurch

    • Ed 5.1
      9 October 2018 at 9:49 am

      Rebuild the rail network.
      Make haulage by trucks uneconomical.

      • cleangreen 5.1.1
        9 October 2018 at 10:08 am

        Yes Ed.

        Trucks should be forced to pay for the real cost of fixing the roads and dangers caused by the fracturing of the hillsides from the heavy truck vibrations as the road engineers here are saying they are recording unusual cracks in the rock faces now.

        here is our open letter to Jacinda today.. – “Let’s do this”

        9th October 2018.
        TO all rail stakeholders,

        Subject; New Zealand’s challenge to achieve climate resilient development

        This am we watched PM Jacinda Ardern struggle with the questions asked of her during the AM show as Duncan Garner asked Jacinda “what is the time line has the Government set for changes to our carbon emissions to save our future” and Jacinda you were definitely struggling with an answer.

        Here is a simple method to counter that question. The answer was given by the other guest on the AM show after you PM by Bronwyn Hayward is Associate Professor of Political Science and International Relations at the University of Canterbury Hayward was New Zealand lead author serving on UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

        Professor Bronwyn Haywood said that we need to now to “change the way we move our freight and ourselves around our country”.

        Phil Twyford was also on the news on the AM show this morning 9/10/18

        announcing that millions will be put into the upgrading of the Wairarapa rail line service for freight and passenger services, – so hurray to Phil for this, our committee applauds you for restoring regional rail policy finally.

        So HB/Gisborne requires the same level of funding at least to adequately restore our ‘rundown rail services too, and we need passenger rail returned to Gisborne Napier regions as the elders and young can travel safely again by rail as our roads are unsafe with a very high ‘truck freight industrial activity’.

        https://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/news/dollar96m-funding-for-wairarapa-rail/ar-BBO7qo9

        Quote; “Wairarapa rail tracks are getting a major funding boost and upgrade.”
        This morning Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced a $96 million investment, which includes $50m for track infrastructure and the rest for double-tracking between Trentham and Upper Hutt.
        He said it would help grow the region’s economy and tourism.
        Without the investment, the line would deteriorate and cause delays and disruptions for commuters, Mr Twyford said.
        “Passengers have a right to expect a safe and reliable service, and this investment will ensure the long-term future of this route.”
        Mr Twyford said the investment could have spinoffs into other investments.
        It would give the Greater Wellington Regional Council more confidence to invest in upgrading and improving the line’s rolling stock, he said.
        Work on the Wairarapa rail line was expected to start in April next year.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/101399396/hopes-alive-for-a-better-more-frequent-capital-connection

        Quote;
        “They would have the versatility to support the regional routes, as well as providing extra capacity on the Wellington services.”
        Transport Minister Phil Twyford said “the Labour-led Government was committed to developing a transport system that embraced all modes of transport. – “This includes looking at increasing investment in public transport.”
        Our Regional request; to NZ Government;
        We in HB/Gisborne also now require the same “freight and passenger services” be restored to Gisborne Napier line, so our freight and passenger services once again can be connected to “the capital connection” and all other export ports for our own “economic and wellbeing health & security” is assured for the future please.

        Jacinda – read/hear our open letter to Jacinda and her government.

  6. esoteric pineapples 6
    9 October 2018 at 8:12 am

    I’m glad I don’t have to be a member of the AA anymore. I was only a member in case of a breakdown etc but there is a great deal where if you have your tyres blown up with nitrofill with a garage in my town (cost $50 for a year), you get an emergency break down service with a group of garages throughout New Zealand.

    I’ve always found the AA assumes that because people like me are members, that we support their cars-first policy in regards to transport in New Zealand.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7
    9 October 2018 at 8:17 am

    New Zealand has one of the best location in the world for electricity from water turbines – Cook Strait. There is literally one metre in difference between the sea level at one end of the strait and the other, depending on which direction the tide is going in. Tapping into this would probably make us energy self reliant for vehicles

    • Dennis Frank 7.1
      9 October 2018 at 8:28 am

      Sounds good in theory but we need to know why the similar design for the one at the Kaipara Heads hasn’t become operational. A decade or so in the pipeline, so the energy company developing it must have run into significant engineering issues. Unless the local Maori opposition has been using the law to stonewall the project.

    • dV 7.2
      9 October 2018 at 8:29 am

      There was an investigation a year or so back into the Cook st project.
      Has, did that get anywhere?

      • Antoine 7.2.1
        9 October 2018 at 8:33 am

        I can’t see a large scheme being consentable. If it was somehow consentable, I can’t see it being economic (cost-effective).

        We have good quality wind, geothermal, solar and hydro resource. Even if we want to go 100% renewable, we don’t need tidal.

        A.

    • Dukeofurl 7.3
      9 October 2018 at 8:35 am

      main issue is the peak tidal flow doesnt occur during peak electricity demand.
      And we have a very large renewable supply as it is and whats needed is demand driven supply for the weaker wind conditions.

  8. David Mac 8
    9 October 2018 at 8:29 am

    Electric cars are getting cheaper by the day, the percentage of electric vs petrol second hand cars coming in from Japan is sliding upwards rapidly. We are shopping for secondhand Leafs. Trademe now have a specific category for electric cars.

    https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1794751612.htm?rsqid=07115a026d304f2a88fe1cad156d5f22

    The 2 main deterrents are the cost of battery replacement and range anxiety.

    There are non OEM factories building new battery internals for a fraction of a new factory battery cost. I think it’s just a matter of time until we see specialists popping up that will replace battery internals, with a warranty, in a day for less than $1000.

    If we hire a car for those rare occasions that 95% of us need to travel more than 300kms in a day, we will be better off. A charge is a few dollars, a tankful of petrol ???

    Trade the dinosaur in, get Sparky on finance and come out ahead. Get a warm feeling with the passing of every service station.

    • Humma 8.1
      9 October 2018 at 8:45 am

      Actually the uptake of EV’s in NZ is not accelerating and may be dropping off…https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/vehicle-fleet-statistics/monthly-electric-and-hybrid-light-vehicle-registrations/
      Check real data, not some anecdote.

      • David Mac 8.1.1
        9 October 2018 at 8:53 am

        Hi Humma, maybe I’m reading the data you provided wrong.

        Doesn’t it say that in 2017 3600 electric cars were registered and in 2018 so far we’re up over 4000???

        If so, amusing that you suggest I check the real data.

        • Enough is Enough 8.1.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 10:19 am

          Compare that uplift to fossil fuel cars

          • David Mac 8.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 10:37 am

            Yes, we are buying more cars overall than ever.

            I think it’s the trend that is important, all revolutions gain momentum slowly, like a snowball rolling down a hill.

            Between 2016 and 2017 electric vehicle registrations doubled, a 100% increase. With the overall vehicle sales figure growth we’re talking a few %.

            It’s a problem compounded by the SUV/4WD ute fashion, big and thirsty bricks beyond our requirements.

      • David Mac 8.1.2
        9 October 2018 at 8:58 am

        I am reading it right Humma, looks like a trend to me.

        2013 – 39 registrations
        2014 – 326
        2015 – 505
        2016 – 1517
        2017 – 3691
        Up to the end of Sept in 2018 – 4075

        • Humma 8.1.2.1
          9 October 2018 at 11:54 am

          Exactly, if the trend was to continue then at the end of 2018 we would have to have a bout 6,000 or more EV’s. But that’s not going to be the case. Its slowing down and tapering off. Look at the monthly figures the last 4 months.

        • Humma 8.1.2.2
          9 October 2018 at 11:56 am

          Lets not forget the elephant in the room. Wholesale power prices are now in the $300’s (normally $75) because the lake levels in the SI are getting rather low. Bring on more EV’s and bring on brown outs and blackouts. We do not have the electricity resource in NZ to support a majority EV fleet.
          https://www2.electricityinfo.co.nz/

          • Antoine 8.1.2.2.1
            9 October 2018 at 12:20 pm

            > We do not have the electricity resource in NZ to support a majority EV fleet.

            Sure we do, just takes a few years and some money to build the kit.

            A.

          • David Mac 8.1.2.2.2
            9 October 2018 at 6:17 pm

            Even at those prices: 100kms in a Hummer @ $3 a litre about $135. In a Nissan Leaf $7.

            We have an electricity over supply between midnight and dawn. We need that capacity to fulfill daytime demand.

          • mike 8.1.2.2.3
            9 October 2018 at 9:30 pm

            battery and recharge time hasn’t been solved yet then theresthe lack is the of charging stations EVS only work as long as there is no mass uptake rail makes more sense than EVs

            • KJT 8.1.2.2.3.1
              9 October 2018 at 10:05 pm

              As i said before most cars do less than 50k daily at less than 50km/hr. Fits perfectly with off peak charging, and btw, cars more like golf carts than present day petrol cars.

              The majority of people only do greater distances in the weekends.

              Already families like ours have a small shopping basket car for the week, and a bigger one for towing boats and holidays.

        • William 8.1.2.3
          9 October 2018 at 12:11 pm

          But in your original comment at 8 you said

          “…the percentage of electric vs petrol second hand cars coming in from Japan is sliding upwards rapidly. ”

          Now you’re quoting total figures for both new & used ev’s, and not comparing to petrol vehicles.
          If you look at the bar graph of Monthly EV registrations the used numbers have become quite volatile this year. Also note between 2015 & 2016 the total numbers registered tripled, between 2016 & 2017 the numbers increased by less than times 2.5, if we compare to the end of Sept for last year with this year the result is times 1.7. The numbers of ev’s are increasing but the trend seems to be decreasing.

          My opinion is that ev’s are yet another dead end that will trap us. Most of the world’s electricity comes from fossil fuels. NZ might have high renewable electric generation but that energy is currently used elsewhere. It can’t be used twice so to use ev’s we’ll need to significantly increase our renewable generation or significantly reduce our current use. The latter will be needed anyway.

          Easy individual travel has only been a thing for the last fifty years or so. We’ll survive quite happily getting used to public transport and reducing our expectations about travel ‘rights’.

          • KJT 8.1.2.3.1
            9 October 2018 at 5:05 pm

            NZ power generation is sized for peak loads.

            Cars charge of peak.

            Not to mention most cars travel less than 50k in a day at less than 50km/hr.

            A pattern well suited to golf carts, rather than trying to emulate petrol driven cars.

            • William 8.1.2.3.1.1
              9 October 2018 at 8:07 pm

              NZ generating machine and transmission capacity is sized for peak loads, but the stored fuel (primarily water in storage lakes) is sized for total consumption over a year, and in a dry year we can already run close to the bone and sometimes need cuts. Add the energy needs of ev’s charging off peak and we will need much more primary stored capacity.

              Your golf cart suggestion is possible (although 20kmh would be a more realistic maximum speed for them) but will I think require a much greater attitude change than moving to public transport. Bicycles combined with public transport is well proven too. I omitted to stipulate that most public transport should be electric.

              • KJT …
                9 October 2018 at 10:42 pm

                A large proportion of our power is used by Tiwai point. The company we pay 30 million dollar subsidies to. More than enough for a car fleet.

                I have lost the link, but someone in UK had developed the type of electric cars I propose. The business plan was to use them as rentals, a bit like Asian hire bikes. Though I think most people would be better owning a commuter car, and renting a petrol car for long trips.
                Similarly, Delivery trucks for the last few k’s from ports and rail depots do not need to be fast.

                Public transport improvement won’t happen until there is a huge price hike for hydrocarbons.

                • William …
                  10 October 2018 at 11:54 am

                  Tiwai Point uses 570MW which is about 13% of NZ consumption. Sadly most car chargers will be in the North Island and while the DC Link is capable of 1200MW there are times when that is already running at full capacity.
                  (I don’t support the subsidy but according to stuff the $30m was a single payment, not plural http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9016725/Govt-pays-30-million-to-Tiwai-Pt)

                  Maybe you’re thinking of Clive Sinclair’s C5 🙂

                  Public transport improvement is already happening. In the main centres it’s congestion that causes people to prefer it. Auckland use has grown greatly in recent years, Wellington has historically had a high use, but both have potential for much more improvement and growth.

          • David Mac 8.1.2.3.2
            9 October 2018 at 6:34 pm

            Hi William, options are limited with an Impala but what’s to stop an entrepreneur designing and selling garage mounted wind turbines to charge infrequently used EVs?

            New or used EV’s I don’t think it matters. As a nation we struggle with the price-point. We have one of the oldest fleets in the western world, on average our cars are 14 years old. We have family cars for sale on car-yards here that are considered classics in the UK. Like all new tech, prices will drop.

            I love combustion engines and hope to always have one or two as an increasingly expensive hobby but my Mum getting to Pak n Save and the library? It just makes sense to me if her car could be motivated by an energy source that wasn’t necessarily a finite resource.

            • William 8.1.2.3.2.1
              9 October 2018 at 8:44 pm

              Not sure where Impalas have suddenly come from but it seems you’re relying on the old “we’ll be saved by a bright inventor” syndrome. And most cars are used more than infrequently so relying on intermittent stand alone turbines is not a goer.

              Having an old vehicle fleet is good because we’re making the stored energy used during the manufacture of vehicles last a long time. They’ll last even longer if we divert to public transport for most journeys. I own four fossil motor vehicles (only one is currently running & that gets 100mpg) but my journeys to the library & the supermarket are done on an old bicycle fitted with a crate for carrying stuff. Organise something similar for your mum. But good public transport for those unable to do that is required.

              • David Mac …
                9 October 2018 at 9:31 pm

                Hippy…

                I’m having a lend William, sorry.

                Impala, 60 bubble top coupe does it for me.

                http://image.superchevy.com/f/119417318+q80+re0+cr1+ar0/1960-chevy-impala-tucson-az-rear-view-six-tailights-driver-side.jpg

                Old fleet good? I take your point but I like my kid being surrounded by airbags and an engine as efficient as today’s best engineers can make it.

                We need a more frequent and encompassing public transport system today but I have reservations about the long-term sense.

                I believe for all NZers to lead a much improved quality life we need to spread out a bit and I think eventually we’ll wake up to ourselves. There are only 4.8 million of us, we can all have a pony and dig for tuatua.

                I met a young American guy in the Far North recently, he works for a US Silicon Valley company and wasn’t on holiday.

                I’m fortunate to be able to live where I think NZ is at her most beautiful, there’s no jobs and few people here. As we start to drop this 9 to 5 at the office BS, we don’t need to walk down the hall to have a meeting with someone, flick on the holgram skype instead. I’m expecting more neighbours over the next 50 years.

                Yes I do believe in our future and that necessity is the mother of invention. I’ll die an optimist.

    • Dennis Frank 8.2
      9 October 2018 at 8:48 am

      Heard on the Am Show just now, think it was Marie Dyhrberg reporting her trip to Mongolia, that electric cars have become widely adopted there. Apparently because the govt pays 12k out of the 17k cost, so the buyer only needs 5k.

      Must be a recent govt policy because the initial trend was due to used electric imports from Japan: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/news/industry-news/where-the-priuses-roam-why-the-hybrid-is-conquering-the-land-of-genghis-khan/article30348763/

      Does raise the question of how their govt can afford substantial subsidies and Grant Robertson thinks we can’t afford any!

      • BM 8.2.1
        9 October 2018 at 8:53 am

        Mongolia has money coming out the wazoo thanks to a huge mining boom.

        • Dukeofurl 8.2.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 9:15 am

          Only because it has such a low GDP that one huge mine can make such a difference.
          For the citizens not so good as these sort of projects rely heavily on foreign contractors and maybe a few jobs driving dump trucks for the locals.

          Not sure what royalties the government gets but likely the bulk of the profits will go to those who provide the billions to build the mine and have the experts to run it.
          https://www.economist.com/briefing/2012/01/21/mine-all-mine
          the Irish pubs, of which there are several, are heaving with foreign miners, investment bankers and young local women with very long legs and very short skirts. French bistros serve steaks the size of tabloid newspapers. ..
          Yep plenty of contractors.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.3
      9 October 2018 at 11:35 am

      Electric cars may or may not be good right now, although long term they will help.

      But NZ currently favours large, inefficient vehicles (SUV’s and the like).

      https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/vehicle-fleet-statistics/

      There is a lot of scope for saving fuel just by driving smaller and more efficient conventional cars – which are perfectly adequate for most of our 1-2 passenger trips. Some of the fuel tax (or a new tax on new large, inefficient vehicles) could be used to subsidise the purchase of small, efficient cars?

  9. David Mac 9
    9 October 2018 at 8:48 am

    “What goes around, comes around. In 1900, there were only 4,192 automobiles made in the U.S., and 1,681 of them were steam powered, and 1,575 were electric. Gasoline, that was a distant third, with 936 produced. The steam car soon fell away as impractical, and that left the electric car in a very good position, especially as batteries and electric motors improved.”

    https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/jim-motavalli/what-we-can-learn-our-colorful-electric-car-history

  10. Cinny 10
    9 October 2018 at 9:03 am

    Planet Earth is more important than fuel prices. If fuel prices make us all think twice about how often we use our cars, then that’s not a bad thing.

    What would be awesome is subsidies for community service card holders to buy electric vehicles.

    • In Vino 10.1
      9 October 2018 at 6:00 pm

      True, Cinny.
      But.. Even within what you say, I have noticed over the years that when petrol prices rise, they do so very rapidly and in larger steps. If the international prices drop, or our dollar rises, the petrol companies are just sooo much slower to lower their prices to us, and do it in much smaller steps.
      I believe Ardern is right – there is profit-gouging by the companies, and even if we do need to raise prices to discourage use, there is no reason to allow that profit-gouging to continue.
      Better to cut their profits and increase taxes further so that the money gleaned can be sensibly used by Govt, rather than flowing into rich people’s private pockets.
      And somebody needs to point out to silly BM that regardless of what NZ towns were designed for, it is now apparent that the planet we live on was not designed for us to come along and burn all the fossil fuels. Forced weaning is necessary.

  11. David Mac 11
    9 October 2018 at 9:18 am

    We’ve got oodles of spare power generating capacity when nobody wants it, midnight to dawn. Charging the car could be cheaper between those hours. Plug the car in when you get home and run the cord through a timer.

    I’d like to see figures on how many car journeys are longer than 200kms in a day. I think it would be less than 1%.

    • cleangreen 11.1
      9 October 2018 at 8:06 pm

      Hi David,

      Several countries are building large storage battery systems using Tesla battery technologies to use when surplus power generation is not used.

      Australia has been even building one and US Germany Spain and other countries are jumping on board.

      Tha large battery systems are the size of a large rugby field and produce many Kiwiowats of instant on demand power, so this may be the way to have 24hr

      This is just one battery storage system that gets power from a stand alone solar farm. in UK and the battery farm can store 29 Megawatts.

      So we can do this here in every location too.

      https://www.zenobe.co.uk/electricity.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    9 October 2018 at 9:25 am

    But it’s also the moment where taxes get questionable when petrol is at $3 a liter when your disposable holiday dollar is stretched hard for the family holiday.

    This is based upon the false assumption that everyone can afford to have a car and drive it everyday. Climate change has proven that we can’t.

    With now no future local petroleum supply we have total vulnerability to international oil prices and to government taxes, for ever.

    We’ve never utilised our own oil supplies. Because it’s a light/sweet crude it was always sold offshore while we imported heavy/sour crude from the Middle East. The idea being that because we got a higher price for our oil than what we paid for imported stuff we’d be marginally better off.

    Then we sold our oil wells to the private sector and the only people who were better off was the new owners.

    • David Mac 12.1
      9 October 2018 at 9:40 am

      Yeah, the crude extracted from our waters is up there on the scale amongst the many grades. The popular benchmark is around the middle: Brent.

      The primary reason we don’t crack our own is because our one refinery at Marsden Point is not able to process the grade extracted in NZ. If we wanted to refine our own oil we’d need a major refit, it’s not worth the small volume extracted in our waters.

      The reason we sell off exploration rights is because it’s so damned expensive to drill 9 holes to find every viable one. We can’t afford to do it ourselves.

      Due to the North Sea oilfields Norway is the richest per capita country in the world.

      I think we were going about it the right way, as Norway did, increase profitability as risk levels diminish. Start with royalties on the global giants and slide towards the NZ State Oil Co.

      But hey, but a memory now….choice.

      It’s a business model that might transfer to other fields, let the neoliberals be the pioneers, the big risk takers and then slowly ramp up state ownership/returns as risk diminishes. eg: Green biodegradable packaging from our forestry waste, the tons and tons of stuff that comes down the hill and smashes everything in times of extreme rainfall.

      • David Mac 12.1.1
        9 October 2018 at 10:04 am

        China et al could not compete against us if we found a viable use for our forestry waste.

        The heavily populated, cheap labour countries are unable to have truckloads of near free Radiata fragments rolling up at a plant.

        Bugger making jeans and TVs, thats a race to the bottom. We need to get smarter and find niches with products that have a global demand and even with $1 a day workers, competitors cannot compete.

        Sacks of milk powder? Bugger that, we should be filling Chinese fridges with dairy products filled with berries grown on a family farm of a few hectares. As the air gets harder to see through in Beijing, great marketing story to tell.

        An Aussie pal of mine is ready to retire. Chinese interests are the most interested in his large nursery operation. Apparently, strawberries grown in Oz attract a premium price over the domestically grown fruit in China….the needle-free variety of strawberry.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1
          9 October 2018 at 2:26 pm

          We need to get smarter and find niches with products that have a global demand and even with $1 a day workers, competitors cannot compete.

          No, that’s the race to the bottom. Once a country has dug up all its resources and sold them offshore, as NZ is busily doing, that country ends up poor. And, yes, exporting farming products exports resources. Those plants and animals don’t grow on nothing.

          No resources = poverty.

          Something that capitalists, politicians and economists don’t seem to understand.

          • David Mac 12.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2018 at 3:14 pm

            Trees and grass aren’t finite resources.

            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2018 at 4:07 pm

              What they grow on is. Why else do you think fields need fertiliser? And, yes, what the fertiliser is made out of is also a finite resource.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2
        9 October 2018 at 2:22 pm

        The primary reason we don’t crack our own is because our one refinery at Marsden Point is not able to process the grade extracted in NZ.

        That’s as it is now. When the refinery was built it could have been made to refine our oil rather than ME sour crude. We sell ours because it gets a better price than what we buy ME sour crude for which is why we sell our oil offshore rather than refining it – as I said. That decision was made back in the late 60 or early 70s. Probably made at least some sense when we still owned the oil rigs extracting the oil.

        We can’t afford to do it ourselves.

        We actually can. It’s actually delusional to think that we can’t. As I say, we already own the resources to do it and have people with the necessary skills.

        Due to the North Sea oilfields Norway is the richest per capita country in the world.

        Last time I looked Norway still owns its oil rigs and gets the full profit from the sale of the oil.

        It’s a business model that might transfer to other fields, let the neoliberals be the pioneers, the big risk takers and then slowly ramp up state ownership/returns as risk diminishes.

        You’ve got that around the wrong way. It was government that took the big risk and once they paid off the neo-liberals moved in and took all the profits after they did nothing. Typical capitalism really.

        • David Mac 12.1.2.1
          9 October 2018 at 6:52 pm

          No, you’re wrong Draco. Norway clipped the ticket in a minor way in the beginning.

          “In the early days, foreign companies dominated exploration activities, and they were responsible for developing the first oil and gas fields. Norwegian participation gradually increased as Norsk Hydro became involved. Saga Petroleum, a private Norwegian company, was established in 1972. Statoil (now Equinor) was also established in 1972, with the Norwegian state as sole owner. Norway also established the principle that the state was to have a 50 per cent ownership interest in every production licence.”

          https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/framework/norways-petroleum-history/

          Our state could afford to undertake exploration in their own right if they decided to…if it wasn’t to be outlawed. Most voters would prefer to see the many billions spent elsewhere.

          • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.1.1
            10 October 2018 at 1:01 am

            Our state could afford to undertake exploration in their own right if they decided to
if it wasn’t to be outlawed.

            ???

            Most voters would prefer to see the many billions spent elsewhere.

            Billions?

            I wonder how much it would actually cost the government, using state resources and manufacturing, to build a seismic vessel and a drill ship. Even buying from the private sector would only cost about $1 billion. Could, of course, rent ones already in existence.

            • David Mac 12.1.2.1.1.1
              10 October 2018 at 10:32 am

              Outlawed = Drilling for and extracting fossil fuels from NZ waters is slowly being phased out by our Government.

              Only 1 in 9 exploratory drills expose a viable field. I don’t think voters/taxpayers would receive reports like ‘We spent $20 million of your money on this pointless hole in the ocean floor, 20 million on the one before that but we’re really hopeful about the next one’ well.

              Personally I don’t think Governments should be spending big money on gambling. Initially, I feel a healthy royalty on each barrel extracted with a view to ramping up involvement as risks diminish (like Norway did) is a much better plan.

              I guess it’s all a bit of a moot point given the shutting down of the industry in NZ.

  13. Bill 13
    9 October 2018 at 10:45 am

    Putting a price on carbon simply doesn’t work in terms of reducing use. All it does is hammer the poor while the better off and business sector absorb any increases.

    We want to come down off carbon fast enough, while embracing a semblance of equity – as signed up to by the NZ Government at Copenhagen, Paris etc?

    Then buy the damned fossil from the oil companies from general taxation (a few billion dollars in the first year), subject it to a hard sinking cap of about 10 – 15% per year, and distribute it out through existing networks for free.

    Easy.

    Do that, and those dairy herds shrink in size damned fast. Do that, and industry switches its heating and energy supply to zero carbon sources damned fast and at no extra cost. Do that, and you and I won’t be in the position of having shoved future generations off the top of a tall building while telling them they’ll be fine as long as they invent an anti-gravity device on the way down (carbon capture and storage tech).

    Or then again, we could choose to continue to fail. (put a price on carbon, introduce a carbon tax, off-set by planting trees and other such useless and dishonest nonsense, increase the carbon budgets we’ll work to – as just done by yesterday’s IPCC report – pretend we’re in possession of tech that doesn’t exist, lie to ourselves, wring our hands, kill our futures)

    • Antoine 13.1
      9 October 2018 at 10:59 am

      Which do you think seems more likely

      A.

    • cleangreen 13.2
      9 October 2018 at 3:52 pm

      Hi Bill

      We need to use rail in a smart way in future to get the best lowest transport emissions system by incorporating the use of “mixed trains” heard of them?

      I caught a mixed train when i left Rhodesia in 1970 and headed for capetown and at the border at Mafeking I got put on a “mixed train” with three carriages on the back of a freight train which made a delightful trip as we stopped at many colourful stops along the way and saw the interior of the country.

      I would highly recommend a mixed train to anyone today as mixed trains are still used in four continents including US today so we should do this as it would take cars and trucks off the roads lowering the carnage and lower the climate change emissions at the same time.

      Here is a link to Mixed trains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_train

  14. David Mac 14
    9 October 2018 at 10:57 am

    I was surprised to see a recharge station at Kawakawa the other day, they are popping up all over.

    Open an account with the recharge company, they send you a chipped fob key ring to swipe each time you need to use an away from home recharger and email out a bill each active month.

    80% charge in an hour… the bakery and public toilets are sensational in Kawakawa. Some selective shoulder season airbnbing and holidaying has never been cheaper.

    There is some big money banking on this trend.

    https://charge.net.nz/map/

  15. Ad 15
    9 October 2018 at 4:41 pm

    For full denial with the kind of authoritative Fuck You one could expect from this new Australian Cabinet – now that they’ve hounded out anyone in caucus willing to even mouth the words “climate change” and “energy transformation”, here’s their government’s response to the latest IPCC report:

    total denial.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/09/australian-government-backs-coal-defiance-ipcc-climate-warning

    The Australian government has rejected the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report’s call to phase out coal power by 2050, claiming renewable energy cannot replace baseload coal power.

    The deputy prime minister, Michael McCormack, said Australia should “absolutely” continue to use and exploit its coal reserves, despite the IPCC’s dire warnings the world has just 12 years to avoid climate change catastrophe.

    He said the government would not change policy “just because somebody might suggest that some sort of report is the way we need to follow and everything that we should do”.

    • Dennis Frank 15.1
      9 October 2018 at 5:02 pm

      It’ll be interesting to see if their Labour Party responds by declaring themselves part of the solution, or are they still spooked by the negative result last time they tried it.

      Late September polling has Labour 25 seats ahead from a 3.6% swing here: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/newspoll?nk=67b05ff84cbccce9d3d362c1b353c757-1539056778

      Another has Coalition 46%, Labour 54% on a binary split, giving 55 seats to 91 seats (individual party breakdown being 37% to 38% with Greens 11% & One Nation 6.5).
      https://www.pollbludger.net/

      Has ScoMo coming in ahead of Shorten though – implying a charisma deficit for the latter, presumably.

      • Ad 15.1.1
        9 October 2018 at 5:11 pm

        I have slightly more faith that the Australian state governments will continue to bankroll massive public transport ventures like extending theGold Coast light rail to the airport, increasing the Sydney toll roads until their eyes bleed, building high speed rail from Sydney to Melbourne (while it’s a perennial, it’s getting closer), metro systems for Brisbane, and really large extensions to the Melbourne tram system.

        I’ve just come back from a couple of weeks there engaging with the main city’s operators about all of these plans.

        Watching how the media buy-up happened in the lead up to Turnbull getting rolled, it’s hard to see a Labor Federal government going into an election with a strong climate change policy suite. Those miners sure have deep ad-buy pockets and they sure hurt.

  16. SPC 16
    9 October 2018 at 5:49 pm

    Sure the government will have to keep the public informed as well as have the corporates explain their pricing.

    Our petrol taxes are not high by world standards and the Auckland levy is not a significant part of the price rise there (and prices are just as high in the south because of transport costs from the refinery).

    There is the world price base and there is there is the local currency price. So it is beyond government control.

    This is though not good for those who have long commutes because of being priced out of housing markets. Then there are those that have multiple jobs they have to drive to.

    So, all in all, the government should probably delay the Auckland levy – if only for the optics and they will have money rolling in from the higher GST (lower dollar rising import prices higher GST off sales) to cover this easily enough. Then go back to it when the petrol prices fall back again.

  17. Timeforacupoftea 17
    9 October 2018 at 10:10 pm

    Any increases are absorbed by higher wages, higher benefits and higher Superannuation. I don’t think in any year that I know of Superannuation has not had an increase.
    Same as increases in cigarette tax and alcohol tax.
    The best way to increase business production and more jobs etc would be to remove all taxes from fuel.

    Better still remove taxes altogether including income tax, GST etc.

    Just have one tax a consumption tax, you spend, company spend, gov’t spend a low tax of 1 or 2 percent would do.
    Remove cash and have card only for purchase and sale.

  18. millsy 18
    10 October 2018 at 9:07 am

    I wouldn’t worry. The US dollar and oil prices will correct, and things will settle.