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POAL sleaze

Written By: - Date published: 7:26 am, February 3rd, 2012 - 80 comments
Categories: workers' rights - Tags:

I’ve heard that POAL has private detectives following union officials around and taking photos.

I’d imagine that’s where “scoops” like this are coming from.

I think it’s about time POAL management stopped messing about with their sleazy and incompetent campaign and started negotiating in good faith. Don’t you?

80 comments on “POAL sleaze ”

  1. burt 1

    This reminds me of an old joke;

    Two port workers were standing around talking when one suddenly stomped on and killed a snail that was on the ground. The other guy said – hey what do you do that for. The guy who stomped the snail said; The little bastard has been following me around all day.

    • millsy 1.1

      And you think that reverting back to something along the lines of the pre-1863 US southern labour market would change things?

      • Gosman 1.1.1

        Yes, because that is what is being advocated here isn’t it. The POAL want to reimpose slavery amongst the workforce. All independent contractors are actually slaves. The fact that many of them earn more than their permanent couterparts is irrelevant.

        • millsy 1.1.1.1

          Independent contractors dont have sick leave, ACC, holidays, etc and so on? What did those workers do to you that made you want to take their sick leave off them?

          • Gosman 1.1.1.1.1

            I’m an independent contractor. I don’t get paid sick leave, or Holidays, and have to sort my own ACC. This is compensated by the fact that I earn much more than my permanent counterparts. You would have a case if you could show that independent contractors earn about the same or not much more than a permanent employee.

            [Keep up, Gosman. The whole point of what POAL is doing is to reduce hours to reduce what it pays workers. POAL is aiming to slash its labour cost by 20%. You get much more pay to compensate for the rights and entitlements you lose by being an independent contractor. Wharfies will lose income under POAL’s plan. Eddie]

            • Kevin Welsh 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Ahhhhh, the politics of fucking envy eh Gos.

              Knew we would get to the nub of it eventually.

              • Gosman

                Please explain how this is the politics of envy.

                • muzza

                  The fact you get paid at all is tribute to the sorry state of employment options in whatever industry you claim to operate in G.

                  I have been a contractor my working life, I chose to be so, however not for one minute do I begrudge those who have holiday pay, sick leave etc available to them , because they are permanent members of a company’s staff..

                  Why do you so vehimently protest against the port workers?
                  While you are there go google (cos thats all you do), what a PBE is and where it relates to the ACIL

            • Craig Glen Eden 1.1.1.1.1.2

              You would have a case if you could prove independent contractors are getting paid more than there permanent counterparts. If companies are not moving permanent employees to contract status because its cheaper why would they do it?

              • Gosman

                Because they only pay for specific work. Therefore they don’t have to worry about having more staff than they need. It is called flexibility.

                • Gosman, it sounds like what you mean is that contractors get paid at a higher rate per hour/day while they are working, than do permanent employees.

                  Otherwise, if they were paid more overall than were permanent employees then that would mean one of three things (or some combination):

                  1. The companies that hire them have financially incompetent managers (i.e., the full cost of employing full time employees is less than paying contractors but the managers are too incompetent to realise this).  

                  2. The contractors are actually getting paid less than full time employees (once they deduct ACC, sick leave, etc.) and are subsidising the company through, for example, their own suffering (e.g., working when sick, generally overworking – hence statistically shortening their lives – etc.).

                  3. There are fewer contractors being employed than permanent employees (hence, the few that are hired can be paid more than a greater number of employees). Perhaps this is through one contractor contracting his/her services to more than one client.

            • millsy 1.1.1.1.1.3

              OK, fair enough, so would you have every worker in NZ become an independent contractor?

              • Gosman

                It doesn’t bother me. It might bother you but that is because of your political leanings I’d suggest.

                • mik e

                  Groseman it doesn’t bother you because you earn enough money not to worry about rent food kids health etc. Its called Narcissism goose stepper!

            • Craig Glen Eden 1.1.1.1.1.4

              Oh so they do it because they are over staffed, gee I wondered why, so how does it fit that you ( the contractor) get paid more then? Surely if you had a company that was over staffed you would reduce staff numbers to actual work needs rather than feel the need to change contract status.
              At least that is what I would do, unless it was cheaper to contract to some dumb arse who I could convince to believe that I was going to pay him more for being a contractor to do the same job they where doing before as an employee.The icing on the cake would be if I could convince that person that being a contractor now meant they owned their own business and that some how that was better than being an employee. One more thing Gosman if contracting is such a good model why are CEOs employees?

        • Drongo 1.1.1.2

          That’s right, Gosman, MUNZ workers are being responsible by accepting less in wages than what POAL would be paying the contractors, but POAL won’t have a bar of it. Do you know why this might be, Mr Genius?

        • Georgecom 1.1.1.3

          Gosman, in reply to your post.

          No!
          Do they?
          Are they?
          You are correct, it is not relevant to POAL behaving properly and concluding negotiations given they have got an offer of staff flexibilities.

          Rob

  2. TightyRighty 2

    You’ve heard that have you? must be true then.

    On the other hand I saw for a fact on TV union officials bullying union members into strike action against the port. needs must and all that, but the union is hardly lily white in this instance

    • Colonial Viper 2.1

      On the other hand I saw for a fact on TV

      Oxymoronic.

      • TightyRighty 2.1.1

        really? a news article on tv with impartial commentary must be an oxymoron? I must have missed the memo, if not the meme.

  3. Gosman 3

    What has happened with that amazing ‘smoking gun’ evidence that was posted on here a few weeks back? You know, the information that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the management of POAL were engaged in bad faith bargaining. Why is the Union even bothering continuing with industrial action when they could simply resolve this through the court process?

    • IrishBill 3.1

      Don’t be so naive, legal options are only ever ancillary to industrial action in a serious dispute. More often than not these things are settled on the site before the courts even get around to hearing them.

  4. IrishBill 4

    Oh and I think it’s interesting none of you righties are addressing the subject of the post. Maybe you should try again.

    • millsy 4.1

      Its because they want to slash the wages and conditions of the wharfies to be just expendable casual workers earning $13.00 per hour. The sooner they the admit it the better.

      Of course in a few years they’ll start lobbying for slavery to be brought back.

      • Gosman 4.1.1

        Don’t forget killing babies for food.

        • RedLogix 4.1.1.1

          Slavery has a long and ignominious history; and in many respects is still rife in today’s world.

          Eating babies for food by contrast…..

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.2

        Of course in a few years they’ll start lobbying for slavery to be brought back.

        Realistically, they’ve been lobbying for this in the background since the 1990’s.

    • Gosman 4.2

      That is possibly because it is a bit of a non issue really. All we have is a link to a Whaleoil post of a photo of David Shearer with a Union leader and an opinion expressed by you that POAL has private detectives following Union people around. I’ll comment on that when you have some actual hard evidence of this. Perhaps you could write to the Mayor and ask him to find out if the Management team he is responsible for is paying for a private detective. Until you have hard evidence this is mere speculation.

      • felix 4.2.1

        Correct.

        Any fool can see the REAL scandal is that the leader of the Labour Party knows a union official.

  5. randal 5

    poal have been watching too much tv and cheap blockbuster movies.
    they have become infantilised like the rest of the population

  6. Photographer 6

    The linked photo has an almost unlimited depth of field and a fairly wide angle. This most likely indicates it was taken with a cell phone or a point and shoot. It was certainly not taken with a telephoto lens, which is what you’d use if you were “spying” on someone.

    [yeah, because a PI worth his sakt walks down the street behind his mark with a honking great camera. The objective of the PI here is to capture Parsloe and Shearer together, that doesn’t need a fancy camera that would risk giving away the PI. Eddie]

    • lprent 6.1

      As you say Eddie, I think photographer is locked in the 1950’s detective movies where the equipment was bulky. We’re talking about following two people on an empty street in the morning. You don’t wave around telephoto lenses.

      You have a small point and shoot camera with a 5x zoom at best or a cellphone.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        Either Parsloe was being followed around or Shearer was being followed around.

        Hard to tell which, and I would leave any conclusion as tentative.

  7. I saw that photo when it was posted two weeks ago and thought it was insignificant.

    I hope both sides of the dispute have improved substantially on their campaigns since then, but there’s no obvious sign of it.

  8. prism 8

    Don’t usually look at Whaleoil. I haven’t been missing anything except a sick stomach from reading the crap there. Cameron’s father, NACT former? official, must be proud of his son, if anyone else was so blue they would have cardiac treatment.

    • Anne 8.1

      Cameron Slater is a nauseating creep who nasty right-wing pollies, crooked industrialists and even the odd bent public servant use… to either do their dirty work for them or arrange for it to be done. Hence the reason he possesses things like photographs and other bits of information that he releases on his blog-site when the time is considered right.

      I remember a photograph (legitimately taken by a media cameraman) of a certain John Key and Cameron Slater deep in conversation in Kingsland, Mt Albert during the byelection. Judging by the look on Key’s face, Slater was giving him interesting information about something – or someone. Watch out David Shearer.

      • Gosman 8.1.1

        Or peraps he was just having a chat with him. I’d suggest it is unlikely you would pass on potentially damaging information direct to the PM. It would normally go through handlers. Your view is bordering on paranoia.

        • Ianupnorth 8.1.1.1

          Tea tapes didn’t created a degree of paranoia, did it Gossy you knob!

          • Gosman 8.1.1.1.1

            What?!?

            Have you been smoking a perticular type of green weed again? That made very little sense.

            • felix 8.1.1.1.1.1

              You didn’t understand it. Not the same thing Gos, as we are shown all day every day.

        • Drongo 8.1.1.2

          Interesting to see the over-the-top levels of indignation pouring out of the mouths of Slater’s sycophantic army. The fact you can’t make head nor tail of who the hell is in the photo makes no difference – they all just “can’t believe” how “low” Labour’s “sinking to”, how “nasty” Labour is. Compare describing a photograph of the Leader of the Labour Party walking down the street with a union boss as “proof the Labour Party are the nasty party” (forget about the fact you can’t even see who’s in the photo) with Slater’s call that Aspergers sufferer Arie Smith-Voorkamp should receive a gunshot to the stomach for stealing light-fittings. Where really is the nastiness? [Edited at author’s request – r0b]

          • Drongo 8.1.1.2.1

            To Irishbill – can you please remove just the last sentence of my post at 3:22 pm? Reference to IQ of less than 70 was meant to refer to Slater and his sycophants only, but the way it reads might be received as referring to Aspergers, which it absolutely isn’t meant to have. If you could edit that last sentence out it’d be appreciated.

  9. Willie Maley 9

    This post seems to have attracted a lot of comment from the right.
    Wonder why?

    • King Kong 9.1

      Because it is laughable unsubstantiated speculation unlike the stories I have been hearing. Apparantly the Maritime Union has been smuggling in bomb making equipment and munitions from Uzbekistan. Word is they plan to blow up Starship Hospital to send a message on how unacceptable they find their 100k saleries.

      [Employers embracing violent, unethical and underhand tactics against unions is something with a long and ignominious history. IB’s allegations are lent a degree of plausibility when seen in that light. Unions blowing up children’s hospitals by contrast? Banned for one week… RL]

      • Gosman 9.1.1

        Doesn’t detract fro the fact that this post is still largely unsubstantiated speculation. Anyone could have taken that photo. Whaleoil has had photo’s of other people posted on his site before. I believe he may even have had some of Andrew Williams. I very much doubt that someone has employed a PI to follow him around, (except perhaps his wife).

        • RedLogix 9.1.1.1

          IB stated, I’ve heard that POAL has private detectives following union officials around and taking photos..

          That’s a general statement.

          The matter of the photo of Parsloe and Shearer talking (something I would very much expect them to do) is something quite specific… but not offered as proof. Indeed IB states:

          I’d imagine that’s where “scoops” like this are coming from.

          Note carefully the use of the word ‘imagine’. It does imply speculation, and it is unsubstantiated. Equally there is no proof that it is a wrong speculation either.

          This sort of allegation can only be judged on the balance of probabilities.. and in my mind, although not in yours obviously, this kind of underhand tactic is more plausible than not.

          • Gosman 9.1.1.1.1

            So good to see you agree it is largely unsubstantiated speculation on the part of IrishBill.

            I agree that this story could be true and I also agree that I don’t think it is likely but you do.

            This post would be strengthened immensely if someone bothered to find out more information about it. This could be relatively easy to do.

            The POAL management are responsible to the Auckland City Council and the Mayor. If they are spending POAL money employing PI’s then this should be traceable or at least they can be called to account.

            Direct your focus to the Mayor and the Council and then you can make your case from a much stronger position.

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Awww, gossie’s giving people advice on how to present a halfway decent argument. How sweet.

              • Gosman

                Not to you though McFlock. I believe that is called flogging a dead horse.

                • McFlock

                  Damn. That must be why I haven’t mastered your art of aikido-arguing, where the objective is not to present a case yourself but merely to dodge and redirect the force of your opponent’s argument into another direction. 
                    
                  Mind you, that would also involve becoming shit-stupid while disabling my conscience and sense of dignity, so I think I’m better off without your “help”.
                   

  10. randal 10

    word is someone pissed on your cpu and you need drying out and new batterys.

  11. prism 11

    I don’t know what is happening to my comments. They seem to show and then vanish on this site and I don’t know if it’s my system or what. I’m just registering my problem.

  12. tsmithfield 12

    It looks to me that the POAL has been reading The Ancient Art of War.

    “By discovering the enemy’s dispositions and remaining invisible ourselves, we can keep our forces concentrated, while the enemy must be divided”.

    The watersiders might benefit from reading the same book.

    • McFlock 12.1

      Shouldn’t really be needed if everyone’s acting in good faith, should it?

      • tsmithfield 12.1.1

        I suspect Sun Tzu would advise that acting in good faith is not as important as convincing the other party that you are acting in good faith.

        • chris73 12.1.1.1

          Sun Tzu also suggests that having the support of the local population is of the utmost importance in winning any battle

          Who do the population support on this?

          • tsmithfield 12.1.1.1.1

            From what I have heard the Auckland population seem fairly pissed off with the water siders.

            But that probably goes back to the POAL being most effective at gaining the support of the local population in the first place.

            • KJT 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Really. Why then? did 88% support the watersiders in a poll taken by the Aucklander, if Auckland are so pissed off with them.

          • IrishBill 12.1.1.1.2

            I’ve seen polling that shows a majority of Aucklanders blame the management for the dispute.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.2

          The point you blatantly miss is that employment relations between a halfway competent management team and their workforce should not be at all analagous to warfare.

  13. randal 13

    only smug self satisfied been everywhere done everything jerks who have nothing better to do in their high rise offices read that book.
    Wharfies just want to do a decent days work and get a decent days pay.
    they leave those sorts of books to the smartasses who dont work.

  14. QoT 14

    Oh lordy, the comments …

    More proof (if any were needed) that Labour are in bed with the unions.

    Answered your own question there, thor42. The hint, if you don’t mind spoilers, is in that whole “Labour Party” name thing.

    [One’s feelings on Labour’s specific current relationship/closeness/alignment with unions notwithstanding.]

    • RedLogix 14.1

      It’s pure snobbery really. It’s alright for doctors, lawyers… all sorts of professionals to have unions (ok they like to call them ‘associations’ or similar) …. but for the ordinary people it’s a different tale.

      There is no reason… just malice.

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