Poto Williams’ statement after meeting with Willie Jackson

Written By: - Date published: 2:45 pm, February 9th, 2017 - 257 comments
Categories: labour - Tags: , ,

Press release on the Labour Party website,

I met with Willie Jackson last night and we had a robust and honest conversation about the concerns I had raised last weekend. I made the offer to meet Willie and I was pleased that he accepted.

I would like to acknowledge the work of MUMA and its Violence Free programmes and I look forward to visiting them and seeing the work they do for our community.

Having spoken with Willie, I believe his apology is genuine. He realises he still has more to learn about the issues of sexual violence. In that regard I hope to help him increase his understanding and our conversations will continue. I welcome that opportunity and Willie is keen for that to occur. We are committed to working together on this.

Reducing our shocking rates of sexual and domestic violence is something I am passionate about and I am proud to be Labour’s spokesperson on these issues. It’s one of the reasons I want to change the Government and I am totally focused on helping win this election for Labour.

257 comments on “Poto Williams’ statement after meeting with Willie Jackson ”

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  1. Sacha 1
    9 February 2017 at 2:49 pm

    Next time, have the private meeting first, thanks Labour. The rest of us need your help to change the govt.

    • Carolyn_nth 1.1
      9 February 2017 at 3:07 pm

      Or maybe Little should have initiated this conversation before he decided to circumvent the party selection system, and publicly announce his support for Jackson?

      • weka 1.1.1
        9 February 2017 at 3:14 pm

        Yep, and even if they fuck it up there are ways to make it right.

        Jessica Williams Verified account
        ‏@mizjwilliams

        Best poss messaging from Labour on this would have been a joint statement from Poto and Willie 1. sexual violence a huge issue in NZ +

        2. crucial – WILLIE SAYS HE NEEDS TO LEARN MORE AND DETAILS WHAT HE WILL DO

        3. Poto won’t be censured in any way for speaking out +

        4. Willie’s list placing now up to Moderating C’tee and they’ll make the call

        5. This episode has sucked but has raised impt points, and +

        NZLP commits to a frank and open process around candidates AND a proper dialogue on issues of sexual violence prevention.

        NONE OF THIS IS HARD. Like, seriously, on issues like this it actually ISN’T hard to do the right thing. Own your shit, show how you move on

        Instead? A wide-open Thiel-shaped goal. Lab penalty utterly bodged. Nats seize ball, score with Adams apology.

        https://twitter.com/mizjwilliams/status/829507829132251136

        • McFlock 1.1.1.1
          9 February 2017 at 3:19 pm

          yup

        • Sigh 1.1.1.2
          9 February 2017 at 3:26 pm

          Surely Poto gets to decide what she says? It’s her statement, not Willy Jackson’s. Surprised Jessica Williams would think Willy or Labour HQ should tell Poto what to say or how to say it or who should be in it.

          • McFlock 1.1.1.2.1
            9 February 2017 at 3:31 pm

            She’s already said it.
            The point was a joint statement.

            • Leftie 1.1.1.2.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 4:06 pm

              Glad it wasn’t a joint statement, coming from just Poto Williams herself, was sufficient and appropriate.

              • Sigh …
                9 February 2017 at 4:08 pm

                I think some people are just looking for something to complain about, now that Poto has met with Willy Jackson and is satisfied with his response.

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:10 pm

                  I think some people are intent on misrepresenting what the complaint is. How about we look at what’s behind that. From where I’m sitting it looks pretty much like ‘women stfu, your issues are trumped by ours’.

                  • Bill …
                    9 February 2017 at 11:27 pm

                    Yup.

                    An afterthought. This ‘broad church’. What’s the make-up of those who oversee it? (Iconoclasm anyone?)

                    • McFlock …
                      9 February 2017 at 11:51 pm

                      Well, it seems decidedly protest-ant in nature, so they have a Council…

                    • Bill …
                      10 February 2017 at 12:08 am

                      Ah. Well the one good thing about the protestant thang (at least the Presbyterian expression of it) was that there were no intermediaries between the commoner and God.

                      No Council. No Priest…no authority. 😉

                • Leftie …
                  9 February 2017 at 5:14 pm

                  It sure that’s that way Sigh.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  9 February 2017 at 6:22 pm

                  “Complain about”.

                  Raising legitimate concerns in pursuit of improvement. Criticism is not complaint.

        • Leftie 1.1.1.3
          9 February 2017 at 3:50 pm

          Gee, it really feels sometimes that no matter what is said and done, nothing is good enough for some.

          • weka 1.1.1.3.1
            9 February 2017 at 4:09 pm

            Yeah so you keep saying. Looks to me like you’ve still failed to grasp the core problem here. Plenty of people are pointing how what would be good enough, but you seem content to keep running a false line that the people criticising Jackson are intent on criticising him for the sake of it. Why is that?

          • NewsFlash 1.1.1.3.2
            10 February 2017 at 12:11 am

            Leftie

            The argument is already over, but some just can’t help themselves, the correct outcome has prevailed, as expected.

        • dukeofurl 1.1.1.4
          9 February 2017 at 6:56 pm

          It was Williams who broke the Caucus rules by speaking out the way she did.

          her cause may be good but she was just doing internal politicking in public. Was one refuge helped by her outburst ?

          • Carolyn_nth 1.1.1.4.1
            9 February 2017 at 6:59 pm

            It was Little who went public as if Jackson’s candidacy was a done deal, before it went through Labour Party selection processes. He looked to be trying to tip the scales in Jackson’s favour, using his position as caucus leader.

      • Sigh 1.1.2
        9 February 2017 at 3:15 pm

        Or maybe a leader is perfectly entitled to back someone for a winnable list place, especially when poaching that candidate from another party, and it doesn’t circumvent anything constitutionally? And maybe, just maybe, people should have first looked into Willy Jackson’s actual views before ripping their party about publicly.

        • weka 1.1.2.1
          9 February 2017 at 3:18 pm

          We already know what Jackson’s views are. Williams has just re-explained that. Did you even read the statement?

          • Leftie 1.1.2.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 3:28 pm

            That Poto Williams now acknowledges “the work of MUMA and its Violence Free programmes” and believes “his apology is genuine”

            • Carolyn_nth 1.1.2.1.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 3:32 pm

              There’s a compromise that has been followed since the original announcement. Little is now saying he’s given his support to Jackson as a candidate, and that it will go through the party’s selection system.

              His first announcement made it sound more like the party was backing Jackson’s candidacy unanimously.

              So Williams, too, has compromised somewhat in her conversation with Jackson, and the NZLP press release on it.

              Little set the public process/debate in motion. The buck stops with him.

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 3:59 pm

                But Andrew Little always said Jackson would have to go through the party’s selection system. He never said otherwise, either you didn’t listen properly or you assumed that. Poto set the public process/debate in motion. There is a process to be followed, that would have been a more productive platform to raise those concerns. She knew of Jackson nomination, there was a lot she could have done without hiring a PR firm.

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:12 pm

                  “But Andrew Little always said Jackson would have to go through the party’s selection system.”

                  Citation needed for something that proves that Little said that before Williams’ original statement.

                  • Carolyn_nth …
                    9 February 2017 at 4:32 pm

                    There may have been wriggle room in Little’s announcement, but it was reported as a confirmed candidacy for Labour. Jackson stated he was confirmed as a candidate.

                    Newshub’s print report on Little’s announcement on Sunday:

                    Willie Jackson has been confirmed as a candidate for the Labour Party at this year’s general election – but he won’t stand in an electorate.

                    He will be a list-only candidate – and Newshub understands his ranking will be in the single digits.

                    It’s understood Mr Jackson has also been promised the role as Minister for Māori Development if Labour is elected to Government.

                    Speaking to media at Waitangi, Mr Jackson said he was looking forward to getting back out into the community.

                    “This came at a late stage… the party made an approach and I was humbled.

                    Labour leader Andrew Little said Mr Jackson would bring new depth to the party.

                    “I’ve had good discussions with Māori caucus members,” he said. “Everyone can see Willie has something to bring to Labour that we don’t currently have.”

                    Mr Jackson also outlined why he was moving away from the Māori Party: “We think the Maori Party has an obsession with the leadership and it’s getting on our nerves. [They’re] besotted with iwi leadership… and thousands of Māori are missing out on Treaty settlements.”

                    The video with the print report has Little saying this:

                    So I just want to take this opportunity to confirm that I’ve asked Willie Jackson to be a candidate for the Labour Party on the list, in this general election. It’s in good discussions and I will be backing Willie for a position, a winnable position on Labour’s list.

                    So it could be interpreted that the list place was a done deal, and the selection process was just seen as a formality. Otherwise, why pre-empt the process and make such a firm media-centred statement at that stage?

                    • Leftie …
                      9 February 2017 at 4:41 pm

                      Is there something wrong in a leader backing someone he supports?

                      BTW thanks for the link.

                  • Leftie …
                    9 February 2017 at 4:38 pm

                    Re posting the one from Nigel Haworth pointing out that “Willie Jackson’s candidacy wasn’t a done deal.

                    Mr Haworth said he would have to go through the same selection process as any other potential candidate.

                    Mr Jackson will need to join the party and then get a waiver because he hasn’t been a member for the required period.

                    He will also have to go through the party’s moderation process, where his application will be considered by 22 people made up of the council and three caucus members.

                    That process takes place in April.”
                    <a href="http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/323829/willie-jackson-to-stand-for-labour

                    Looking for one from Andrew Little, I’m sure he said it somewhere. Does it count that the process Jackson will go through was noted in the media by Haworth?

                • Bob …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:22 pm

                  “But Andrew Little always said Jackson would have to go through the party’s selection system. He never said otherwise, either you didn’t listen properly or you assumed that”
                  I’ll be interested in reading the citation that Weka has requested from you. Andrew Little’s press release makes no mention of having to go through a selection process, and even goes as far as to say “I will be backing Willie to have a high list position”. Does that sound like anything but a foregone conclusion to you?
                  http://www.labour.org.nz/willie_jackson_joins_the_labour_party

                  • Anne …
                    9 February 2017 at 4:35 pm

                    Andrew Little’s press release makes no mention of having to go through a selection process, …

                    Andrew Little is on record both on radio and television interviews over the past week making precisely the above statement. I heard it time and again. Whatever “press release” you saw and read either omitted to mention it… or you’re telling porkies.

                    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was the former.

                    • Leftie …
                      9 February 2017 at 4:43 pm

                      Thank you Anne, started to get the feeling I was about to get horse drawn and quartered!!

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 5:41 pm

                      Anne, I’d be interested to see a link. I didn’t hear anything from Little on this until after Williams’ original statement. Doesn’t mean he didn’t say it, but it would be good to have that confirmed.

                  • Ben Clark …
                    9 February 2017 at 4:48 pm

                    “I will be backing” is different from “I will be giving”. There is no way for anyone in Labour, leader down, to circumvent the Labour constitution. The leader is a member of the list committee, and probably the most powerful one (certainly Helen generally got her way), but they are only 1. They have to get it past the rest of Labour’s NZ Council, as to where they end up. Similarly NZ Council has to give the waiver for Willie to even stand as a candidate as he’s been a member for less than a year.

                    Andrew Little doesn’t have to say anyone has to go through the selection system as it’s taken as given. Just like he can’t appoint someone to be an MP, he can’t appoint them to be a candidate. There’s very strict rules and processes, that Labour folk will not let be overridden.

                    That said, it would have been good if Labour had got their ducks in a row first, caucus on board, the messaging that Willie had done various courses improving his knowledge around sexual violence etc out first before any announcement… But always easier in retrospect.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 5:43 pm

                      “That said, it would have been good if Labour had got their ducks in a row first, caucus on board, the messaging that Willie had done various courses improving his knowledge around sexual violence etc out first before any announcement… But always easier in retrospect.”

                      Yep. I would add that the reassurances about Jackson would have needed to be framed similarly as to what Williams has said above i.e that he is changing and still needs to learn. That’s actually true of many men in NZ, and it would have been a good opportunity for Labour to demonstrate that it takes addressing rape culture seriously, not just making an appearance of it.

                    • Anne …
                      9 February 2017 at 6:15 pm

                      Thanks Ben. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, but too often it is used to hit someone with a big stick who didn’t have that benefit when having to make a controversial decision.

                      And weka, I recall you saying once that you don’t have a TV set. Perhaps that is why you didn’t hear Little talking about Willie Jackson going through the same process as everyone else. Of course any political leader will have more clout, but that is no different to any other political party. He said it numerous times on radio and television – unless I’ve totally lost me marbles and imagined it, but I don’t think so. Some who know me might disagree. 😡

                    • lprent []
                      9 February 2017 at 7:47 pm

                      Probably like me. I haven’t had any public TV since 2012. Don’t miss it – and especially don’t miss the adverts.

                      We spend about $40 per month between the two of us for several TV services sending stuff in via the net. No ads. No sport. No waiting. Watch when we like. Watch on several different TVs or devices.

                      Hell I was watching Lightbox on my phone in Rome airport.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 10:21 pm

                      Anne, “He said it numerous times on radio and television”

                      yes, I heard that later, what’s in dispute is whether he said it before Williams’ original statement. Hence me asking for a link.

            • weka 1.1.2.1.1.2
              9 February 2017 at 4:03 pm

              That Poto Williams now acknowledges “the work of MUMA and its Violence Free programmes” and believes “his apology is genuine”

              That’s not Jackson’s views.

              Seems there are a fair few here who missed this bit in the statement,

              He realises he still has more to learn about the issues of sexual violence. In that regard I hope to help him increase his understanding and our conversations will continue. I welcome that opportunity and Willie is keen for that to occur. We are committed to working together on this.

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 4:09 pm

                Actions speak louder than words, and at least Poto Williams is now acknowledging the work Willie Jackson is doing in that regard. That work shows his views.

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:20 pm

                  I think you fail to appreciate that misogynists can do good works e.g. set up anti-violence programmes. Misogyny isn’t just about outright hating women, and rape apology isn’t saying rape is good. There are many gradations of behaviour and underlying values. People who work in this area can see what this.

                  The big thing for me is the power sharing and letting women in this case be the ones that determined what is acceptable and not in terms of rape culture and the stance of MPs or potential MPs. It’s not Jackson’s job to determine that, he needs to take his cues from others.

                  • Sigh …
                    9 February 2017 at 6:39 pm

                    I think you’ve done enough damage this week.

                    [banned for attacking an author, 3 months. I’m done with being undermined. If you do that shit again when you come back, I will ban you long term. – weka]

                    [lprent: Good. ]

                  • Venezia …
                    10 February 2017 at 10:37 am

                    I agree Weka. This episode has set me at a distance from Andrew Little’s Labour. After a lifetime of supporting Labour, it seems it is now a bolthole for those with histories of fascism, sexism and abusiveness towards women.

              • Anne …
                10 February 2017 at 11:04 am

                … what’s in dispute is whether he said it before Williams’ original statement.

                Oh I see. Apols for getting it wrong. I don’t know the answer to that one.

                What I usually find further down the track in these types of situations is that another person/persons other than the one taking the blame (in most cases its the party leader who ends up in the hot seat) have fucked-up big time. But it never comes to light. It happens in National too, but the media ignore their indiscretions/blunders unless they are just too serious to be ignored.

                • weka …
                  10 February 2017 at 11:24 am

                  Yes, Lynn I think elsewhere on this page posits that there was someone (not Little, Jackson or Williams) who was behind the not talking it through with the party.

                  The reason the timing came up was because upthread the claim was made that Little always talked about Jackson going through the formal selection process. That’s not how I remember it, I remember Little starting to talk about that after Williams’ first statement.

                  Ben makes a good point, that it would have been a given that due process was followed for selection. But I think it’s also fair to say that once the Leader of the party has announced Jackson in the way he did that the process is a formality. How many people now believe, since William’s second statement, that Jackson might not be selected? So the perception from the outside was that Jackson was in reality parachuted in. An endorsement and announcement from the leader is not a small thing.

        • Carolyn_nth 1.1.2.2
          9 February 2017 at 3:27 pm

          That’s not a democratic process, sigh. The leader should lead by example in following due process.

          Williams acted in accordance with her commitment to her spokesperson role.

          And I’d have had more respect for Louise Upston if should had stood up for women’s rights and issues, against some of her government positions: e.g. on ponytailgate

          • Sigh 1.1.2.2.1
            9 February 2017 at 3:29 pm

            I think the concerns about process are blown out of all proportion, and have got more prominent the less sure people have become that Willy Jackson is the unrepentant rape apologist the Twitterati have made him out to be.

            The man learned his lesson. He’s apologised. Poto Williams has accepted the apology is genuine. He’s offered to work with her to learn more about sexual violence. I think this exposes that many people have been utterly reckless in hacking their party to bits over something they hadn’t actually taken the time to think about.

            • Carolyn_nth 1.1.2.2.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 3:36 pm

              Very slanted view from you, sigh. I stand by my statements above on what happened.

            • McFlock 1.1.2.2.1.2
              9 February 2017 at 3:39 pm

              Given that he couldn’t mention the issue over the last few days without saying something to minimise or excuse his comments, I’m pleased he finally managed to deliver a straight apology.

              The process issue is a separate matter which Little needs to learn from.

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:16 pm

                  “Following my announcement today that I intend to re-enter politics, there have been questions about some of my previous public comments, particularly at the time of the Roast Busters case.”

                  “I want to be very clear that I apologise unreservedly for my comments at the time.”

                  Good start, finally.

                  “They were insensitive”

                  Yes, they were insensitive, but they were also rape apology. This isn’t just about sensitivity, it’s about the politics of rape, which is why an MP is held to a much higher standard.

                  “and I deeply regret any hurt caused to victims of sexual abuse.”

                  Better would have been “I deeply regret harming victims of sexual abuse”. The difference is important.

                  “I’ve had a lot of time to reflect over the last few years, and I’ve learned a lot from the experience. I believe men have a responsibility to not only stand up to sexual violence, but to stand up also to the culture that allows it.”

                  Good, but now you have to demonstrate that it’s not just a belief but a core value that you act upon.

                  I’m proud of the work my trust does to fight sexual and domestic violence, and I am committed to continuing this work both in my personal life and in politics.

                  Again, fine sentiments, but you have to demonstrate the change.

                  • Sacha …
                    9 February 2017 at 6:20 pm

                    Isn’t this the same suspect ‘statement’ published the other day on the Daily Blog, and nowhere else? Unlikely to be legit.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 6:25 pm

                      Apparently it’s from Labour. They didn’t put it out very far though and I haven’t checked their website recently. Weird.

                    • Sigh …
                      9 February 2017 at 6:40 pm

                      Willy Jackson would have put that statement out himself to media. It won’t have gone through Labour as he’s not a candidate or an MP.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 7:03 pm

                      Top of the press release says,

                      “Headline: Statement issued on behalf of Willie Jackson – Labour Party”

                      I’ve been told it came from Labour.

                      TDB has the Labour media statement logo above its version of the post.

                • McFlock …
                  9 February 2017 at 4:22 pm

                  yeah.
                  But I saw this one that he delivered the same day, and was pretty unimpressed. I guess in the five hours between the tv report and the release you linked to (going by the timestamps), someone helped him out.
                  All good.

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 4:11 pm

                It is a matter that Poto Williams needs to learn from too.

                • Pete …
                  9 February 2017 at 5:06 pm

                  Yes. Is another statement coming out saying “She realises she still has more to learn about the issues of teamwork, doing what is agreed, etc?”

                  Or is it to be “She realises she still has more to learn about being on the Opposition benches and that is why she is doing her best to stay there for at least another three years so she can master the art”?

            • Leftie 1.1.2.2.1.3
              9 February 2017 at 4:00 pm

              Well said Sigh.

            • Anne 1.1.2.2.1.4
              9 February 2017 at 4:15 pm

              Thank-you sigh @ 1.1.2.2.1. So easy to pass negative judgement after the event. And so ironic that much of the criticism of Labour and Andrew Little (I do NOT refer to the matter of rape culture) came from people who demonstrated complete ignorance of – and lack of understanding about – Labour’s structural processes.

              A big ups to Poto Williams for having the courage to effectively concede she had misjudged Willie Jackson’s apologies. It takes strength of character and courage to do that – especially in the bright lights of the public arena.

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 4:47 pm

                +1000 Anne.

              • greywarshark …
                9 February 2017 at 4:56 pm

                Good news about that Anne. Just lately I’ve heard much talk about reformation of set ideas in certain areas and good change that I almost start singing and it’s not Stormy Weather, where the words go ‘Just can’t get my poor self together, It’s raining all the time.’

                It’s very heartening. More good news please and I’ll keep trying to do positive things at this end.

              • lprent …
                9 February 2017 at 6:13 pm

                It has been rather hilarious to explain (at extreme length) to several people, that ‘leaders’ actually have to follow process.

                Eventually I think I even succeeded in getting Cemetery Jones to understand it (albeit with a lot of whimpering on his part).

                • Cemetery Jones …
                  9 February 2017 at 8:35 pm

                  Heh, I deferred to you on process from the beginning. Unfortunately it would seem that I wasn’t able to succeed in getting you to understand my feeling that optics are the more vital element, what with this election coming up.

                  Politicians who give equal mind to their responsibilities, and even put them before their rights will win me over every time. I’d say in an election year, their responsibility is to tackle the tough stuff in as canny a manner as possible. Game of Thrones generation and all that, I’d like to see them use a little guile given what they’re up against – not just from National, but with all those journalists just looking for scoops on Labour being a divided house once more.

                  • lprent …
                    9 February 2017 at 9:00 pm

                    Hey, if the party doesn’t get their candidates, members and supporters behind them, then they surely aren’t going to win the election. Most of the time that is due to some dipshits who think that they are the political be all and end all trying for an end game. But bypassing the process in these days of an open dialogue when they can’t charm media to control the public debate means that they are screwed. All it does is to fuck off their supporters, get them pointing out the stupidity and goes a long way towards losing elections.

                    The problem isn’t Poto. It is facebook, twitter and blog sites and the political fuckwit who tried to do an end-game.

                    The solution is to not try to bypass process and to ignore political advisors and other genuises with their head stuck firmly up their arse.

                    Pulling shit like this means that they will get criticism from exactly those who are most able to communicate around the actual supporters of a political party.

        • Leftie 1.1.2.3
          9 February 2017 at 3:36 pm

          Agree with you Sigh.

      • Sacha 1.1.3
        9 February 2017 at 6:17 pm

        Quite. I still hope the party president will summon Mr Little to discuss how to better be an inclusive leader.

      • Tim 1.1.4
        9 February 2017 at 10:11 pm

        You don’t really understand the concept of having respect for the democratically elected party leader do you? This is why the left is in such dire straits.

    • Anne 1.2
      9 February 2017 at 3:54 pm

      +1000 Sacha.

    • JanM 1.4
      9 February 2017 at 7:25 pm

      Yes, what was she thinking?

    • Gavin 1.5
      9 February 2017 at 7:53 pm

      Exactly. Why ruin the first decent chance to keep National pinned down after John Key abdicated, Peter Thiel’s stupid deal, etc? Surely every Labour MP would have a proper code of conduct relating to party interests, that they have to follow. Poto Williams could have been a lot more sensible about how she approached this situation.

      Related to that, there is no enforced code of conduct for MPs, that has been resisted up until now by parliament. Labour should add that to their new policies, lets get it sorted out. MPs must be held to the highest account, like the judiciary.

      • lprent 1.5.1
        9 February 2017 at 9:03 pm

        I suspect that was exactly what someone thought. However Thiel is less of an issue than idiots like the roast busters and their apologists. They are also a lot closer to home.

  2. Sigh 2
    9 February 2017 at 2:56 pm

    Lesson should be don’t fucking comment until you know the facts.

  3. Policy Parrot 3
    9 February 2017 at 3:37 pm

    Now can the other members take down their letter opposing Jackson’s candidacy, saying that “while their objections were heart-felt and righteous” – that they were too quick to judge and are prepared to now take WJ at his word?

    • McFlock 3.1
      9 February 2017 at 3:42 pm

      Not his word.

      Williams’ word.

      She’s the one who reckons he’s learned. For that, he gets the benefit of the doubt. After he demonstrated it to her.

      • Leftie 3.1.2
        9 February 2017 at 4:20 pm

        So it was always down to what she thought and was satisfied with? Becasue that is how you have it look McFlock. Didn’t someone get told off or something for suggesting that on the other thread?

        • weka 3.1.2.1
          9 February 2017 at 4:21 pm

          “So it was always down to what she thought and was satisfied with?”

          Her and other women expert in the field, yes.

          • Leftie 3.1.2.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 4:50 pm

            OK. But hasn’t Willie Jackson been working with women expert in that field over the last 3 years?

            • weka 3.1.2.1.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 4:59 pm

              Feel free to post some evidence of that and that those women think he is appropriate and ready to be an MP (and you get that women working on rape culture issues aren’t a hive mind right?)

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 5:27 pm

                So Willie Jackson hasn’t worked with women’s refuge, rape victim advocates and others involved in that area?

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 5:31 pm

                  I’m asking you to provide some evidence for your assertion that Jackson has been working with women experts in the field for the last 3 years. Because then we can talk specifics rather than generalities and assess what he actually did. Other than that, as far as I can tell you are happy to not only accept his word for what he did but the meaning he ascribes to that. That’s part of the problem. Jackson, by his own actions, has invalidated himself from getting to decide what is meaningful in terms of addressing rape culture.

                  He may well have done some good things, but watching him in the past week it’s obvious he still doesn’t get important things. Williams talks about that in her statement.

        • McFlock 3.1.2.2
          9 February 2017 at 4:39 pm

          It’s about having the credibility to make that judgement.

          It would be better if he had delivered a decent apology to camera. Then I would have had it first hand.

          Typed statements are fine if you want to state things carefully, but how do we know he even had any input into its drafting? And that’s the only version of his that had no minimisation or excuses.

          Andrew Little said he was satisfied, but frankly this was from the guy who thought there wouldn’t be a problem parading Jackson around in the first place, and he had some real political points at stake, and DV/white ribbon didn’t seem to be a huge priority for him so far. So I took it with a grain of salt.

          Now Williams has spoken to him and apparently received a satisfactory result. She’s got expertise in the area, and she’s displayed backbone in defending her principles. So, frankly, she has more credibility than Little on this topic at the moment.

          • Sigh 3.1.2.2.1
            9 February 2017 at 6:42 pm

            So Poto has backed Little’s judgement of Willy Jackson. Great!

            • McFlock 3.1.2.2.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 6:52 pm

              Do you really think that Little and Williams based their respective judgements on the same amount of information and after the same level of consideration?

              Did Little and Jackson meet to discuss explicitly whether his attitudes to rape had improved?

    • Leftie 3.2
      9 February 2017 at 4:14 pm

      Agreed Policy Parrot. I noticed last night that the open letter disappeared from the internet.

  4. Redbaiter 4
    9 February 2017 at 3:44 pm

    Yeah, listening to Jessica Williams is the sure way to get Little elected as PM.

    An inner city liberal/ progressive, she’s not traditional Labour. Never has been, never will be.

    Look after the working men and women, struggling to pay the rent and their power and grocery bills.

    Keep getting diverted by this kind of stuff and National will keep winning.

  5. The Pink Postman 5
    9 February 2017 at 3:47 pm

    Poto Wiliams needs to learn that if one disagrees with the party the place to show her concerns is in Caucus or with her L.E.C. not in public .I hope that Andrew Little shows his annoyance with her.She needs to be told to behave as a good Labour MP should. We now have to start to repair the damage she has done .Personally I would make sure she is not selected for the seat at the next election.

    • Leftie 5.1
      9 February 2017 at 4:16 pm

      +1000 The Pink Postman.

    • lprent 5.2
      9 February 2017 at 6:23 pm

      I suspect that the important lesson is actually the other way.

      Don’t go off half-cocked announcing crap before you have had a chance to put it in front of the caucus and council at least twice (ie raised as a good idea, and then discussed later).

      That is the place where this type of decision should have been discussed.

      While process taken with this decision hasn’t been described anywhere, it does sound to me like someone was trying to circumvent the process required to NOT have this stuff happening.

      Just to put a point on this, my reaction when I heard this being raised as a possibility before Waitangi was to ask what kind of a political fool would think that this was OK.

      If it had been announced as a fair accompli, then I’d have been asking those kinds of questions both inside Labour circles to find out how happy others were with it and almost certainly in public. I wouldn’t have been alone.

      Poto just raised it first.

      The operative point is that “no surprises” is a damn good idea.

      • Sacha 5.2.1
        9 February 2017 at 6:27 pm

        I still don’t understand where the pressure came from to announce early rather than do it properly as you say.

      • weka 5.2.2
        9 February 2017 at 6:28 pm

        In addition to that I wondered if there was time pressure from the Mp issue.

        • Sacha 5.2.2.1
          9 February 2017 at 6:38 pm

          Sorry, the what issue?

          • Carolyn_nth 5.2.2.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 6:41 pm

            I suspect weka means, was it a question if the NZLP didn’t snaffle Jackson quickly, the Mp would.

            However, that then highlights the issue of where Jackson’s political principles and convictions lie: i.e. shouldn’t just be about access to power.

        • lprent 5.2.2.2
          9 February 2017 at 7:43 pm

          Who knows. But frankly how hard is it to simply do it at a caucus meeting or over a phone.

          I did a brief run around inside Labour contacts and didn’t find anyone who’d known about this apart from whatever was being leaked to the media. Doing anything like this without thinking about the implications political downside implications is outright stupid. What annoys me is that I have had to spend way too many hours dealing with the fallout.

      • Sam C 5.2.3
        10 February 2017 at 7:19 pm

        And therein lies the problem. Raise thing in front of the Council and the caucus at least twice… Go away, think about it, do nothing, find reasons to poke holes in it, talk about it some more, have another couple of meetings…

        No wonder Labour isn’t fit to change the government.

    • Red Hand 5.3
      9 February 2017 at 8:18 pm

      As I read it she’s disagreeing with Jackson’s history of contempt for women and I admire her for speaking out. Use Jackson to help win the September election ? How’s that going to work with Willie stinking of Roast Busters and a knife to the heart attitude to partners who fuck someone else ?

  6. saveNZ 6
    9 February 2017 at 4:08 pm

    Personally don’t think Poto should apologise. She expressed reservations, many others in Labour have also expresses reservations, and I think Jackson is going to damage the Labour party with the amount of Skeletons in his closet and they will regret pushing him through, if they go ahead with that.

    Imagine every debate and Jackson’s ‘old’ views being aired again and again on MSM. What a nice, middle, family guy, sarc. Plus the $14+ m he received as CEO in grants to National Urban Māori Authority which might start being examined every time Maori poverty comes up. His great friend Tariana Turia who hates labour, etc etc

    God with Shane Jones being touted for NZ First and his porno past and ability to take the nearest Pacific holiday , its like gifting votes to National with these guys being resurrected into politics. No one likes them!!

    Look at Paul Henry, may be on TV but not popular as a representative!

    Jackson’s got more in common with National and The Maori Party than Labour.

    Also think the left are more hysterical over this issue of Poto expressing reservations than MSM and are doing the damage.

    It’s kinda like Cunliffe expressing he felt bad about family violence and being a man.

    NZ seriously has an issue with talk about family violence! It’s always shoot the messenger on this issue, whether Cunliffe or Poto.

    Go back to local family guys like Woods. That’s what middle NZ Labour voters want. People who aren’t perceived to be in the political trough and jumping the queue because of who they know or are perceived to represent.

    • Wayne 6.1
      9 February 2017 at 4:41 pm

      Just an observation.

      MP’s expressing reservations after a leaders announcement are usually buying trouble for themselves. For rather obvious reasons, mostly to do with looking like a unified team working together. Poto Williams intervention being the opposite of that.

      • weka 6.1.1
        9 February 2017 at 5:24 pm

        Given the serious nature of the topic she was speaking on, I expect she didn’t do this lightly.

        • Wayne 6.1.1.1
          9 February 2017 at 5:43 pm

          Weka,

          It might be serious to Poto Williams, but that does not mean she had to deal with it in such a public manner.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 5:45 pm

            Of course she did. If Labour were incapable of managing this internally in a good way then it’s her job to speak up outside of that.

            Obviously this is an issue far wider than the LP caucus, and it’s not that it’s serious to Williams, it’s that it’s a massive public health issue.

            • Leftie 6.1.1.1.1.1
              9 February 2017 at 6:05 pm

              Agree with Wayne. There was still a process that she could have followed where she could have still raised her concerns. She didn’t need to go to a PR firm.

              • weka …
                9 February 2017 at 6:12 pm

                You just made that up.

                • Leftie …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:10 pm

                  She didn’t hire a PR firm?

                  • weka …
                    9 February 2017 at 7:25 pm

                    Don’t be obtuse. “There was still a process that she could have followed where she could have still raised her concerns.” You just made that up.

                    • lprent …
                      9 February 2017 at 7:26 pm

                      Indeed. After the fact. How pointless would have that been.

                      Look the real problem was whatever numbskull thought this would be a great idea to do without consulting inside the party and caucus.

                      And I’d bet that whoever the politically obnoxious sod was (and I have my suspicion who it was – not Little) who thought up the dumb-arse bypass is the person who should have their arse given to them in a sling after a good kicking.

                    • Leftie …
                      9 February 2017 at 7:40 pm

                      It was unintentional. Jackson’s nomination has to go through a process, surely that would have been the platform to raise concerns?

                    • Wayne …
                      9 February 2017 at 8:28 pm

                      This is politics 101, actually even simpler than that.
                      The Rule; Don’t get into a public scrap with the leader after a leaders announcement.
                      It simply does not matter what the MP’s views are. They don’t become public. They are sorted privately.
                      Why is this so hard to understand?

                    • lprent []
                      9 February 2017 at 9:01 pm

                      Nope. There is still facebook, twitter, and blogs.

                      I am aware that National supporters are generally a decade behind.. Try to catch up.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 8:33 pm

                      @wayne. That’s only true if you believe that the LP is more important than women. Some of us are grateful to Williams that she chose women.

                    • Macro …
                      9 February 2017 at 8:37 pm

                      Beat me too it weka.
                      It might be the case in a party without principles Wayne. But where the party exists to uphold social justice and fairness for all, injustice has to be rooted out.

                    • Wayne []
                      9 February 2017 at 9:14 pm

                      Well, don’t be surprised that the voters who have yet to be persuaded to vote Labour don’t see it that way.
                      Perhaps in the tempo of modern politics it will be a one week wonder and it won’t affect people’s perception that Labour is well organised team.
                      But given that there are already enough people on this site and elsewhere who are more than happy to put the knife into the Leader don’t count on it.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 9:36 pm

                      “Well, don’t be surprised that the voters who have yet to be persuaded to vote Labour don’t see it that way.”

                      Sure, and there are the people who will vote Green rather than Labour over how this has been handled by Labour. Swings and roundabouts.

                      “Perhaps in the tempo of modern politics it will be a one week wonder and it won’t affect people’s perception that Labour is well organised team.”

                      Let’s just hope that Jackson can keep his mouth shut between now and Oct. I agree about perception of competency, but in this case they weren’t particularly competent, so I’d prefer they sorted this kind of thing out now not in the month before the election.

                      “But given that there are already enough people on this site and elsewhere who are more than happy to put the knife into the Leader don’t count on it.”

                      I’m not one of them.

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 9:38 pm

                      @Macro, I was considering a post looking at MPs who proactively spoke out on ethical and values issues at the risk of their own career. Care to help me compile a list?

                      I don’t have a good head for political history. Marilyn Waring is the most obvious.

                    • Macro …
                      10 February 2017 at 9:41 am

                      The instigator of the Maori Party springs to mind!
                      Foreshore and seabed…

              • lprent …
                9 February 2017 at 6:25 pm

                Oh don’t be a idiot Leftie.

                If you are going to make a point on something, then ther eis no bloody point in being half-hearted about it. The PR firms have the lists of media emails.

                Just think of the daft ways that this kind of leaking has been done in the past. For instance when who was it (Chris Carter?) shoving envelopes under parliamentary press gallery doors in an effort to show internal disagreements with Phil Goff?

                This is orders of magnitude better simply because it was done in public.

                • McFlock …
                  9 February 2017 at 6:33 pm

                  lol

                  Or we could have had Duncan Garner gleefully saying “sources inside Labour caucus have told me a letter is being circulated, we don’t know exactly what’s in this letter but it looks like Little is facing a coup from the ranks inside the next two weeks”

                  • lprent …
                    9 February 2017 at 7:39 pm

                    This appears more analogous to the way that David Shearer would make up policy on the fly and piss off the members and caucus. Remember the (probably mythic) frigging sickness beneficiary on the roof.

                    I still get bloody nightmares about having to moderate through that. Ultimately that was for me the turning point. It was just impossible to explain to anyone who actually knew any sickness beneficiaries how that wasn’t a statement made by a fool.

                • Sacha …
                  9 February 2017 at 6:36 pm

                  “shoving envelopes under parliamentary press gallery doors”

                  analog 🙂

              • Jenny Kirk …
                9 February 2017 at 10:45 pm

                Yeah – for once, I agree with Wayne too. Poto was seriously out of step.

            • Sacha 6.1.1.1.1.2
              9 February 2017 at 6:32 pm

              “If Labour were incapable of managing this internally in a good way”

              That’s the most disturbing prospect, to me.

              • Sigh …
                9 February 2017 at 6:44 pm

                Who says they were incapable of managing it internally? Poto Williams broke the internal processes. She’s fronted up today and good on her. That deserves respect.

                • Leftie …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:11 pm

                  +1000 Sigh.

                • Sacha …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:22 pm

                  3 days late, at best. Little needed to do this proposal justice rather than rushing to announce it. Williams needed to remember her collective caucus obligations. Either of them could resign if they are not up to the job.

            • Macro 6.1.1.1.1.3
              9 February 2017 at 6:37 pm

              Totally agree – and the many comments on here bagging her for her stance simply highlights how widespread the problem is.
              Frankly they will never understand because women are expected to look pretty, shut up, and takes what’s given. Unfortunately, there are almost as many women who think that, as there are men.

              • Leftie …
                9 February 2017 at 7:14 pm

                I don’t think there is anyone on here that disputes Poto Williams’s advocacy against sexual and domestic violence, but what is disputed is the avenue she took to vent her concerns over Jackson’s nomination.

                • weka …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:27 pm

                  Still not listening. She told the NZ public about her concerns about what what Labour was doing. If you have a different strategy she could have used, I’m all ears.

                  btw, looks to me like plenty of subtext from some (not you) that rape culture just isn’t that important.

                  • Leftie …
                    9 February 2017 at 7:51 pm

                    Jackson’s nomination has to go through a process, surely that would have been the platform to raise concerns?

                    • weka …
                      9 February 2017 at 7:58 pm

                      Not if you see the leader parachuting him in high on the list and ignoring what you are saying about potential problems. I guess people are free to think the worst of Williams, but the most likely explanation that I can see is that she felt she had no choice. Little literally made the press announcement without going through a process of consulting caucus or his own Minister responsible for sexual violence issues.

                      If Williams had waited, it would have been a done deal. Very hard for her to get the issue taken seriously later when Little has already told the press and it appears that Labour have accepted Jackson.

                    • lprent …
                      9 February 2017 at 9:05 pm

                      Except that preempting that discussion in the media meant that the issue would have been harder to fix.

                      Would you prefer that this was drawn out over 4 months in public. Because that would have been what would happen.

                      Are you really unaware of the current way that politics operates?

                • Macro …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:32 pm

                  Look from the tenor of your replies on here it is quite obvious that you, Little, Anne, Jenny, and many others, think that she should just look pretty, shut up, and take what is given.
                  Little never took her thoughts and feelings into account when he made that unfortunate announcement. It was a highly incompetent thing for any leader to do, and hopefully he will learn that if he really wants to lead an effective Cabinet, then he had better start listening to the concerns of his colleagues in future, and not go off half cocked on some hair-brained venture, when he doesn’t have the full support of his colleagues.

                  • McFlock …
                    9 February 2017 at 7:36 pm

                    yup

                  • Leftie …
                    9 February 2017 at 7:46 pm

                    “she should just look pretty, shut up, and take what is given.

                    No, that is not what we have been saying.

                    “Little never took her thoughts and feelings into account”

                    That’s an assumption as is the rest of your opinion.

                    • Macro …
                      9 February 2017 at 8:28 pm

                      It is obvious that he never took her concerns into account, had he done so he would not have made a public announcement about parachuting Jackson into a top spot on the Labour list!

                    • Leftie …
                      9 February 2017 at 8:38 pm

                      That’s still your assumption.

                  • Sam C …
                    10 February 2017 at 7:38 pm

                    So a leader of a political party has to take every member of his/her caucus’ “thoughts and feelings” into account before making any announcements?

                    Again, that is why Labour has no hope. I know people hate rugby analogies on here (all people who like rugby must be misogynistic rape apologists, right?), but do you see the All Blacks captain calling the entire team together before every scrum/penalty/lineout? Of course you don’t.

                • JanM …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:35 pm

                  Exactly!

              • Sacha …
                9 February 2017 at 7:29 pm

                Who has bagged her for what she said rather than how she conducted her campaign?

                Sexist violence is certainly an unsolved social problem but Ms Williams has chosen to be a member of a political party’s caucus. That restrains some avenues of action than if she was a private citizen or part of an NGO or a social movement. It’s part of the role nd possibly a reason why others do not go there.

                She’s quite welcome to resign if she does not like the obligations that come with the role. Same for Mr Little.

                • McFlock …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:39 pm

                  A caucus that made her spokesperson on domestic violence. That role also comes with obligations.

                  • weka …
                    9 February 2017 at 8:03 pm

                    Yep, and I want women in those roles as MPs (not NGOs) who will stand up to their own party when that party supports rape culture.

                    I always remember Marilyn Waring talking about being in a meeting with ministers, talking about the abuse of teenage girls in institutions, and her realising that some of the men in the room were probably rapists and therefore how could they be relied upon to make decisions for the wellbeing of the girls (something like that, it was a long time ago). Can’t put it more bluntly than that. Until the LP takes rape culture seriously it will have to deal with women inside speaking up in ways that support the wellbeing of women over the wellbeing of the LP.

                • Macro …
                  9 February 2017 at 7:51 pm

                  Sexist violence is certainly an unsolved social problem

                  But you clearly think that she should shut up about having to work with someone who has publicly acted as an apologist for such behaviour in the past because – well because we can’t have any public dissent can we. Ladies should look pretty, shut up, and take what they are given.

                  • Sacha …
                    10 February 2017 at 10:14 am

                    Don’t be ridiculous. Go back and read my other comments.

                  • Sam C …
                    10 February 2017 at 7:43 pm

                    You’re doing it wrong, macro.

                    This issue isn’t binary, as much as you, weka et al would like it to be.

                    • weka …
                      10 February 2017 at 7:59 pm

                      Don’t start making up shit about my views. I suggest you read the moderation notes from the past week or so, there is a much lower tolerance for attacking authors now and that includes misrepresenting them. You are welcome to comment on my comments or posts, but not misrepresent what I believe in random comments especially in a topic as fraught as this one where people are already talking past each other a lot.

            • repateet 6.1.1.1.1.4
              9 February 2017 at 8:34 pm

              “…internally in a good way…” meaning in a way which provided an outcome which she wanted?

          • bwaghorn 6.1.1.1.2
            9 February 2017 at 8:46 pm

            Wayne i lost any chance of having any respect for upston when she stayed silent over greasys keys bullying of a young woman and i bet i wasn’t the only one.

  7. Michael who failed Civics 7
    9 February 2017 at 4:38 pm

    I wonder if Williams paid her PR company to draft that statement? Anyway, I think it’s a good one and that it’s time for everyone to move on and concentrate on beating the Nats. Labour won’t manage that if it’s fighting within its own ranks. It must persuade people that it’s focused on issues of social justice – of which abuse of women is certainly a component and an important one too. Willie J needs to convince blokes of that, while Poto and others need to remember that women’s issues aren’t all there is to social justice, either.

    • Red Hand 7.1
      9 February 2017 at 9:27 pm

      By “women’s issues” I guess you mean the violence and repression by men towards women. Jackson’s sort of bloke right ? The missing Labour voter.

  8. Paul 8
    9 February 2017 at 4:57 pm

    Lucky not to be sacked.

    • Leftie 8.1
      9 February 2017 at 6:06 pm

      Yes, very.

    • Macro 8.2
      9 February 2017 at 6:41 pm

      And how Paul is she going to be sacked???
      You do understand she is an elected member of Parliament?

      • Leftie 8.2.1
        9 February 2017 at 7:06 pm

        Demoted.

      • Paul 8.2.2
        9 February 2017 at 9:40 pm

        I’m just pointing out that if discipline is not enforced in the Labour caucus, then more of this will happen.
        Are you happy to see Labour keep on making such basic defensive errors?

        • Macro 8.2.2.1
          9 February 2017 at 10:28 pm

          The person who should be apologising is not Poto Williams it is Andrew Little. He is the one who dropped the ball. I had hoped that Labour were beginning to turn a corner. The recent MOU and State of the Nation get together at Mt Albert signalled a move in a unified and positive direction. Ironically Metira spoke on women who had inspired her. Jennette and Helen. Having met both, I’m sure neither of them would have put up with the shit Andrew Little handed to Poto either!
          Discipline is one thing but it cuts both ways.
          You can’t expect discipline if you can’t follow the rules yourself.
          And by the way, this is not an employer – employee relationship. Andrew Little is in by the skin of his teeth on the list, Poto Williams is an elected representative. That Andrew Little has been chosen by the Party to be the leader of the Parliamentary caucus is one thing, but it is the voters of NZ who decide who is in Parliament or not.

          • Jenny Kirk 8.2.2.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 10:50 pm

            Disagree with you there, Macro. We cannot know for sure what prompted Andrew Little to go out front with Willie Jackson, but I wouldn’t mind betting that there was an urgent reason to do so – and maybe, it was a strategic move to stall off a takeover of the Maori seats – which Tuku Morgan was clearly starting to make.
            And the fact that Little took Jackson to Waitangi and had him upfront with him all the time, should be telling all of us Pakeha something too. Just have a think about it !

            • Leftie 8.2.2.1.1.1
              10 February 2017 at 12:42 am

              Yep, that’s my feeling too, Jenny,

            • Macro 8.2.2.1.1.2
              10 February 2017 at 9:34 am

              Maori seats can go any which way – have done in the past and will again in the future. I agree that there are some Maori who hold Willie Jackson in high regard. But the willingness that Jackson has grabbed the golden egg suggests that a quiet nod from Little may well have been sufficient. Was he likely to go with Mp? Maybe, but it is clear he was more interested in Labour. Was the call by Little to circumvent due process, and take on board the concerns of his colleagues? I don’t think so.

      • Paul 8.2.3
        9 February 2017 at 10:07 pm

        So Little has no power?

        • lprent 8.2.3.1
          9 February 2017 at 10:16 pm

          To do exactly what he wants – no leader of any party has that.

          Tr*mp thinks he has that. He is learning better.

          • Paul 8.2.3.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 10:19 pm

            So were you LIttle, what would have you done if an MP used facebook the way Poto did, thereby bringing the spotlight of the media to divisions in the Labour Party?

            [lprent: Ok you aren’t listening or even arguing – you are simply trolling without really anything to say. I see what? 5 one line comments. None of them say anything.

            Ummm you have been warned. Ok. Piss off. Banned until November 2020. Two elections sounds about right. ]

  9. adam 9
    9 February 2017 at 5:09 pm

    Good politics is win win, with no one compromising. Seems that has happened. So will the men who let angst rule them on this, take a moment to take a deep breath, and see this as a win all round.

    Hell I’m not a labour supporter, I don’t even like the labour party. But this is a win for them – politics, dialogue and open discussion. Rather than some Marxist Leninist back room deal. Which many here seem to prescribe to, very disheartening.

    A open, discussion, with a good result. I say good on the labour party, for once you don’t look like reactionary prats, and more like a group of people who might actually do some good for society.

    A win for Civil rights, rather than boorish blokish dogmatism.

    Well done Poto and Willie – both being front and center on this as well. This is how real politicians do it, have a stoush, then work it out.

  10. Apples 10
    9 February 2017 at 6:27 pm

    Unconvinced by this. Good to see Poto engage in that constructive discussion, but we are yet to see Willie actually show genuine remorse or a semblance of understanding of why the roadbusters interivew was horrendous.

    We need contrition from him, not via Poto. Although that’s a start.

  11. Sanctuary 11
    9 February 2017 at 6:40 pm

    The more I thought about it, the more I realised that Poto Williams actions were a sign of how weak her faction has become, not of it’s strength. After all, you don’t try and launch an insurgency if you can win a fair fight under the usual rules of engagement on an even playing field. The Guerilla war has already petered out, the motley crew of political has-beens who supported Poto Williams have been exposed as lacking in influence in Andrew Little’s caucus and party.

    However you cut it, Andrew Little is getting his way – albeit after some ritual charade of a meeting so Poto could save a bit of face.

    Poto’s faction is in much the same position as the German High Seas fleet after the battle of Jutland in 1916, of which an American journalist observed – “the German fleet has assaulted its jailer, but it is still in jail”.

    • McFlock 11.1
      9 February 2017 at 7:05 pm

      Overly dramatic, maybe?

      Dunno about “factions”. There’s definitely been the hard word put on her, but at the same time after committing so much I don’t get the impression she’d have said that WJ had made the right noises if it wasn’t true. So I suspect that Jackson also had a crash course in “not being a dick”.

      And Little has also taken pains to emphasise that his glorious announcement of a massive urban Maori voter swing is entirely subject to the regulations and selection procedures of the Labour party and that the Maori caucus members are all wonderful people and he supports however the selection committees choose to reward that wonderfulness. Or something.

      So…. Jutland meets the Channel Dash?

      • Anne 11.1.1
        9 February 2017 at 7:31 pm

        Dunno about “factions”. There’s definitely been the hard word put on her, but at the same time after committing so much I don’t get the impression she’d have said that WJ had made the right noises if it wasn’t true. So I suspect that Jackson also had a crash course in “not being a dick”.

        Almost a certainty.

        • Sacha 11.1.1.1
          9 February 2017 at 7:47 pm

          None of these people are stupid, if not necessarily politically smart. Jackson’s track record since must have been convincing enough to outweigh his ignorant, offensive gum-flapping at the time. Williams would not have agreed to that statement on the basis of a recent change of heart on his part.

          And of course there are factions. Tis a ‘broad church’ so we are told 🙂

          • Anne 11.1.1.1.1
            9 February 2017 at 8:03 pm

            Labour is a very broad church – the broadest church in Christendom. You’ve got lprent at one end and ahhh… Paul(?) at the other end. Very broad. 😉

            Edit: I haven’t started another controversy I hope. Just a figure of speech folks. 😯

    • swordfish 11.2
      9 February 2017 at 11:43 pm

      Sanctuary

      Poto’s faction is in much the same position as the German High Seas fleet after the battle of Jutland in 1916, of which an American journalist observed – “the German fleet has assaulted its jailer, but it is still in jail”.

      I’m not so sure about that. I suspect Poto’s faction is currently much more in the position of the Jurchen-led Jin dynasty in northern China on the eve of the 1211 Battle of Yehuling with the Mongol Empire forces of Genghis Khan.

      Although their position also bears a marked resemblance to that of Duke Leopold of Austria’s much-prized mercenaries in the 15 November 1315 Battle of Morgarten against the independence-seeking Swiss.

      As I’m sure you well know.

  12. Leftie 12
    9 February 2017 at 8:25 pm

    Can we all forgive each other and just get on with kicking National out?

  13. Whispering Kate 13
    9 February 2017 at 9:08 pm

    Hell’s bloody teeth, why can’t Labour keep its shit in house and sort out their problems without it all being aired for the Government to make hay with. The one major action Little needs to take is to ensure strict discipline and house rules and punishment for anyone breaking rank. Whether Poto or Jackson are right or wrong, it should have been sorted within the Caucus without the Government getting even a sniff of it. Poto should know the rules and should have aired her serious views to Little not publicly using a PR consultant to write her dissatisfaction about Jackson and his views. A bit cheeky and full of it if you ask me, if you worked in a company and did this you would be seen the door.

    Personally I don’t give a continental who gets a high listing as long as it aids and abets ousting the current Government and it is sorted out in house so the MSM have no excuse to make an ass of the Labour Party. As an aside I detest misogny but Willie Jackson has a long way to go before he even comes up to some of the incumbents sitting in the Government benches. Little should not be belittled like he is and we should be giving him every support. Get with the play folks – do you want another term of this Government – no, I think not but you are not helping at all.

    • Paul 13.1
      9 February 2017 at 9:38 pm

      She is very lucky to be in a job.

    • Leftie 13.2
      9 February 2017 at 9:57 pm

      Completely agree Whispering Kate. And…

      “do you want another term of this Government ”

      NO!!!!!

    • weka 13.3
      9 February 2017 at 10:12 pm

      Ok, so let’s say for the sake of argument that when Little and Williams talked about this earlier, Williams said this is going to be a huge issue for women in the caucus, in the party and in the public. You are going to create serious problems for me in my role as Minister/Spokesperson, and there are serious problems with Jackson being prominent in Labour because of his past and he doesn’t appear to have changed enough. He will be bad for women and probably bad for Labour.

      Little says, thanks for letting me know what you think Poto, and then carries on with his plan.

      Are you saying that under those conditions she should suck it up and not let the public know that as Labour Spokesperson on Sexual and Domestic Violence she will be compromised or let sexual assault survivors know that there is at least one MP in the incoming Labour govt that gives a shit?

      Because the people arguing that Williams should have dealt with this in house haven’t said what should happen if she gets ignored.

      • Paul 13.3.1
        9 February 2017 at 10:15 pm

        Do you want a change of government?
        Or a perfect opposition?

        • lprent 13.3.1.1
          9 February 2017 at 10:20 pm

          At the cost of having some idiots thinking that they can make end-runs around process?

          Ok are you telling me that I have to support party full of politically stupid and naive idiots like you?

          Ok – who has another party where I don’t have to put up with stupid fuckwits like you and ignorant mouthpieces like Willie Jackson, Bomber, and whoever started this morons play….

        • weka 13.3.1.2
          9 February 2017 at 11:03 pm

          “Do you want a change of government?
          Or a perfect opposition?”

          That’s dishonest rhetoric. I want a change of govt and I believe that not only does that not have to come at the expense of people who have been raped, but that Labour has a better chance of forming govt if it operates from a place of respect and competency.

          • Pete 13.3.1.2.1
            10 February 2017 at 9:08 am

            Good comments. Good sensible, reasonable comments yet you know for all the purity, respect and competency are things of whimsy when it comes to being elected. Followers of politics, the game, politics the semantics, are often in different worlds than politics the reality.

            In my humble opinion Key, Joyce, Collins, Brownlee ( amongst others) were/are scumbags deserving of no respect, yet regardless of scumbag actions got them respect and got them elected.

            It is essential to build that place of respect and competency. While we are engrossed in building another little part of that big sandcastle someone over the other side is spoiling another part, and an eddy has washed away parts elsewhere. And we’re so involved we don’t realise the tide’s gone out, we’re nowhere near the action, we’re all alone in own our isolated part of the world, irrelevant in the game.

            • weka 13.3.1.2.1.1
              10 February 2017 at 9:14 am

              I vote Green, where respect and competency are inbuilt, so I know what it looks like in political party 🙂

              Rape culture is a key factor in the same system that causes the problems you are obliquely referring to. It’s no some isolated thing away from the action, it’s a core component of the action. Doesn’t matter which part of the monster we attack, all do damage. People I know who are active around ending rape culture are mostly intersectional. That means that we work on multiple fronts and support the work of people on fronts that we can’t be involved in.

              • repateet …
                10 February 2017 at 10:20 am

                I understand.
                I also understand that had the people I’ve been involved with been condemned for life, or ostracised, or never been trusted again for some of the attitudes they’d shown or things they’d done sometime earlier in their lives, there would a lot more talented ones disenchanted and not used to the advantage of everyone.

                Anyone who has at sometime shown bad judgement and appalling attitudes in some facet of life not being eligible to be a Green or Labour candidate is fine.
                In National they end up as Ministers of Justice

                • Whispering Kate …
                  10 February 2017 at 10:48 am

                  No parties are perfect, National chuck cabinet ministers onto the back bench for insubordination and what do they do, they sit there, suck it up, for the betterment of staying in power. Discipline I think is what it is called. You don’t see much disruption coming from them, certainly not enough for the MSM or Labour to get a sniff of it. Poto could have dealt with the swallowed rat and waited until after they have got into power and worked it from the inside – this way we are never going to chuck this rotten lot out, even left wingers understand this entire world is full of opportunists and venal human beings and no parties are perfect, but being saints and self harming ourselves is not going to do it.

                  Labour are not a team and haven’t been one for ages, they are like spoilt undisciplined kids and are going nowhere at this rate. Give us any good reason why we should want to vote for them. Too many egos who don’t give a toss about the party and spoiling it for the electorate.

                • weka …
                  10 February 2017 at 1:57 pm

                  I’m not saying Jackson should be condemned for life (nor is he being ostracised btw), or even that he shouldn’t join Labour. I’m saying that he himself doesn’t get to be the person who decides if he is suitable because of his past views and actions around rape culture, and his present actions tbh.

                  Poto Williams clearly gave him a way forward in her original statement.

                  • repateet …
                    10 February 2017 at 5:32 pm

                    Agree, he doesn’t get to be the one to decide if he’s suitable. Others do, some who have condemned him to the “unsuitable” pile because of his history. Clearly nothing he has done, is doing or is likely to ever do will see redemption. Is blanking people forever because they have done something stupid or wrong, the stuff of idiots?

                    • weka …
                      10 February 2017 at 6:59 pm

                      “Clearly nothing he has done, is doing or is likely to ever do will see redemption.”

                      See if you can name 3 people on TS who’ve stated that.

                      Jackson isn’t getting criticised for doing something stupid or wrong. He’s getting held accountable for a pattern of behaviour over a long period of time. The people you know who were offered a second chance, did they change? How did you know?

      • HDCAFriendlyTroll 13.3.2
        10 February 2017 at 7:29 am

        Personally I believe that Little would have told her quietly something like “Don’t worry about it. I’m just using him (Jackson) to get the urban Maori vote. I’ll see to it that his name is so far down the list he doesn’t have a hope in hell of getting into parliament.”

        As for the morality of using someone to gain power – that’s a whole different topic.

    • Jenny Kirk 13.4
      9 February 2017 at 10:52 pm

      totally agree with you, Whispering Kate.

  14. Paul 14
    9 February 2017 at 9:42 pm

    This debacle again proves that the liberal left who control Labour in NZ has not learnt the lessons of Clinton’s defeat in the US or Labour’s demolition in Scotland.

  16. infused 16
    9 February 2017 at 11:37 pm

    Well… one good thing that came out of this mess is that Paul got banned.

  17. Korero Pono 17
    10 February 2017 at 6:24 am

    Personally not a fan of the LP but I admire Poto William’s stance, she should be applauded for taking a stand on sexual violence, rather than castigated by die-hard LP supporters for stepping outside of ‘process’ (which just makes me despise the LP even more). When it comes to serious issues like rape culture and any type of violence, process be damned. She was standing up for what she believed in and in my mind that gives her more credibility in her role and more credibility in general than any careerist motivated MP. If I were in her Electorate, she’d even get my vote, which is, in my opinion, more than the LP deserve.

  18. HDCAFriendlyTroll 18
    10 February 2017 at 7:20 am

    The big question for me is whether or not this has all been a deliberate play by Poto to undermine Little and for what was reason. Maybe she’s got her eye on the top job. Maybe she’s pissed at Little for tapping Jackson without letting her know first.

    Anyway this latest move is her hunkering down. She knows she’s been caught out and she knows her head is on the block. By aligning herself with Jackson she further isolates Little and at the same time makes it difficult for him to sack her.

    And if Little does sack her he risks further splitting the party between identity politics and those that believe winning the next election should come first.

    As for Jackson he’s been well and truly played. Not only have his inane RB remarks been put back in the public light he’s simply been used by Little to try and get the urban Maori vote. There is no way with current polling and his position on the list that he’ll make it into parliament and Little knows it.

    Ah, politics.

  19. Korero Pono 19
    10 February 2017 at 10:38 am

    Perhaps Poto’s motivation was simply to stand up for what she believes in? Why is it , when women in politics speak out about violence, sexual assault, abuse they are accused of having ulterior motives? God forbid that someone, particularly a womsan just speak a simple truth for truth’s sake. Her truth is sullied by accusations and innuendo that she should know her place, she should have followed process. I am glad she spoke up, she likely had Little choice.

    • Whispering Kate 19.1
      10 February 2017 at 5:02 pm

      I didn’t even think of Poto as a woman because her gender is not the important thing here, it could have been a man for all I care. The entire situation should have not been aired in public – Jackson could have been spoken to inhouse – Labour just seem to allow themselves to be shat on in the media and at the Government’s delight at every opportunity they have. There are the right times to be noble and she should have not spoken without Little’s agreement. Imagine if you did this sort of thing in the armed services or a large business, you would be shown the door. She isn’t, by the way, the only person who has serious opinions on the disgusting rape culture that pervades this country, surely she must have seen how much the media and the government would make a meal of this. I give up frankly. She is not a team player.

      • Korero Pono 19.1.1
        11 February 2017 at 7:17 am

        I disagree that her gender is unimportant in this situation. Who better to speak up about an issue that largely affects women, than a woman? She would have been crucified had she not spoken up about Jackson’s misogynist views and behavior toward a sexual assault victim. Honing in to how Poto expressed her discontent detracts from the point that she was making. It also ignores that she may have had valid reasons to proceed as she had done. In my view the issues she raised superseded that of internal party politics or protocol. Why should she be silenced on an issue that was important to her and important to all women. Poto Williams has raised an important issue and that is whether or not there should be a place in the LP for any member that promotes a blame the victim mentality. Excuse after excuse has been made by LP supporters for Little’s own lack of protocol, whilst crucifying Poto for hers. That seems like a double standard to me. Sadly it is party loyalty at the expense of reason and party loyalty regardless of the party’s flaws – change comes with challenge, which is exactly what Poto has done. I admire her more for her stance but the LP loyalists attack on her simply reinforces my belief that the LP have lost touch with voters – and I don’t just mean the demographic that Labour are trying to target.

    • HDCAFriendlyTroll 19.2
      11 February 2017 at 8:33 am

      I think she should have spoken up too, just not publicly, not on FB, and she certainly didn’t need to hire a PR firm.

      And if after speaking to Little they weren’t able to resolve the conflict then she should have said to him something like “If Jackson gets in I will be forced to resign.”

  20. repateet 20
    11 February 2017 at 10:27 am

    weka …
    10 February 2017 at 6:59 pm
    “Clearly nothing he has done, is doing or is likely to ever do will see redemption.”
    See if you can name 3 people on TS who’ve stated that.

    I think you’re reducing it to semantics.
    You know that Jackson is seen as unsuitable and is not wanted as a candidate to a number. The reaction has shown that.

    The same as the being held accountable.

    The people you know who were offered a second chance, did they change? How did you know?

    No-one knows if anyone has “changed.” You can say someone has “reformed” because behaviour which was once common is no longer evident. I have seen that in people who have been ‘in trouble.’ The corollary to the type of thinking around the Jackson situation is that no 17/18 year old who commits a serious crime should ever be trusted again, is capable of changing or has changed. They are to remain “unsuitable.”
    It is clear a number have decided that for Jackson there is no possibility of redemption.

  21. Whispering Kate 21
    11 February 2017 at 10:30 am

    I get the feeling Labour have no taste for power. Maybe they like being on the opposition side of the house, maybe they like their noses in the trough without having to do the hard yards. For anything that is important a prize like being in power, something does have to give, difficult decisions to make – can’t believe I am saying this but HDCAFriendlyTroll has a point, maybe Poto should have sacrificed herself for the greater good of the Party. There are far more grubby people in the House than Jackson, can’t some people make a mistake and be able to redeem themselves. As I have said before we haven’t a hope of Labour getting into power. As for Winnie even contemplating joining the MOU, after this fiasco yada not going to happen.

  22. Jono 22
    12 February 2017 at 5:59 am

    Ok guys i have read your comments above. First labours factions, the neo liberal still have power in the labour camp. Now that is going to make them miss those missing million voters or the disenfranchised voter. I believe Little can see this and thats why he has bought Willie in. He is appealing to the blue collar/working class voter. This class has been ignored in the last few elections. After Brexit and Trump the world has changed people are looking for a new way. It would be refreshing to see.

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