Steven Joyce – liar or fool?

52 comments on “Steven Joyce – liar or fool? ”

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1. Barfly 1

   5 September 2017 at 7:21 am

   Steven Joyce – liar or fool?

   Liar
   • tracey 1.1

     5 September 2017 at 11:18 am

     But didnt lie about accomodation stuff when he was 23, so nothing to see here. He is just lying to win an election!
   • Kevin 1.2

     5 September 2017 at 11:25 am

     Both.
2. Ed 2

   5 September 2017 at 7:21 am

   He’s no fool. He knows mud sticks and with a biased media to support the National propaganda machine, the voices of economists will be muted.
   After all Stephen Joyce knows more than they do.
   Therefore if he isn’t a fool, what does that leave?
   • bwaghorn 2.1

     5 September 2017 at 2:28 pm

     standard nat tactic tell a big lie loudly then back away quietly and their moron followers will only remember the big lie as fact
3. Antoine 3

   5 September 2017 at 7:25 am

   Both?
   • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1

     5 September 2017 at 7:51 am

     Most probably.
4. Incognito 4

   5 September 2017 at 7:35 am

   It really doesn’t matter how big the ‘hole’ is according to Mr Joyce. What matters is that he spreads the idea that Labour cannot be trusted with Taxpayers’ money because Labour is incompetent and/or not ready to govern and because Labour cannot be trusted full-stop. The polls have kinda neutralised many of the other usual attack lines of National.
   • reason 4.1

     5 September 2017 at 10:46 am

     It is National who are the weak ones on tax and budget constraints …. Bill English is the gate keeper for Johnny Made-offs work ….. both share Merrill Lynch ethics ….

     “They have been willing instead to see their own institutions make money out of the proceeds and to hell with the human misery caused back where the thieves are thieving.” … http://www.sarawakreport.org/2017/07/australia-and-new-zealand-slide-from-their-responsibilities-over-mass-corruption-and-malaysia/

     Through their actions NZ is aiding and abetting corruption overseas ….. And allowing our own Government revenues to be shorted … … helping the grubby jurisdiction game …. which only the rich get to play….

     Show us the money ??? …. it’s been taken off shore … In accountants ‘tax vehicles’

     Inequality is engineered …… by bankers like John Key,…. Lawyers like his trust bunny one …. and Accountants like John Shewan … All working in organisations like PwC KPMG, Mossack Fonnsenka, ANZ, BNZ, Deutch Baank Bank of America etc etc etc … http://www.corp-research.org/bank-of-america http://www.corpresearch.org/deutsche-bank

     Through Lobbying, donations, bribes and old boys networks ……Loopholes and bad laws are purposely passed …. for the rich to exploit.

     Ask yourself … why is Judith Collins in Parliament …. who is she working for ?

     “Those who can afford to pay the most, the biggest companies in the world, pay proportionately the least tax.”….

     Our Nact Governments tax haven building,…offends decent people and works against the interests of all honest workers…. it was and still is helped along by our dirty media … who do a good job in keeping citizens non-informed…..Quote : “In fact, what is even better news is that this is receiving little publicity in New Zealand – which means there is a higher likelihood the PM will nudge it through without too much meddling from the country’s left wing camp”

     But The Aussies are starting to do something about their corporate cheats ….

     Labour should take note … As the Same names use the same methods here…

     https://www.michaelwest.com.au/goldman-sachs-news-corp-tax-lowdown-as-government-claims-battle-is-won/ Were it not for increasing community awareness of multinational tax avoidance – the world’s biggest rort – and rising concern over tax fairness, things would be worse. So the positive perspective is that, yes, inroads are being made ´….

     …“It was a superb win for the the Australian Tax Office against Chevron in the Federal Court last week but there is something everyone is missing, something which will turn the art of tax avoidance on its head; a game-changer for multinationals”. …………… “Chevron’s sham tax structures were first brought to light in 2015 in a report by former multinational oil company executive Mike Hibbins. Hibbins found that Chevron’s structure of “artificially created interest payments” was designed not merely to reduce tax but to make a profit from the Tax Office. https://www.michaelwest.com.au/game-changer-for-oil-giants-and-multinational-tax-
     avoiders/

     “American Express is the archetypal multinational tax avoider. It conducts “related party transactions” with other Amex entities in a tax haven. Via these transactions, profits are siphoned offshore before tax can be paid……It produces very low profits, or losses, in Australia.” https://www.michaelwest.com.au/how-amex-paid-no-tax-in-nine-years-on-10-billion/

     Cleaning up our blue rot corruption may also be a vital component in fixing our housing affordability crisis … as well as helping honest citizens in other countries … Money Laundering New Zealand ‘shell companies send stolen money all over the world. http://www.sarawakreport.org/2017/07/pushing-prices-up-and-people-out-how-malaysian-money-is-causing-anger-in-london/
5. Stuart Munro 5

   5 September 2017 at 7:39 am

   Our trolls will now be repeating ’11 billion dollar hole’ as they did ‘structural decade of deficits’ ad nauseam. He’s a liar and a fool – misgovernance is a pretty 3rd rate political strategy – but many that support him are only fools.
   • Robert Guyton 5.1

     5 September 2017 at 8:17 am

     Bet “Our trolls” won’t! It’s a billshit line and they’re not so stupid as to try to promulgate it here on TS.
     • tracey 5.1.1

       5 September 2017 at 11:20 am

       Billshit. Nice.
6. peterh 6

   5 September 2017 at 7:46 am

   He has to be a fool anyone who spend over $1600 on a taxi in Sydney for one day does not know how to spend taxpayers money
   • WILD KATIPO 6.1

     5 September 2017 at 8:34 am

     Aww c’mon,… hes just being a good neo liberal ,…always good at using money ,… so long as its OTHER PEOPLES money !…
7. mickysavage 7

   5 September 2017 at 7:49 am

   Good post r0b and perfectly captured. The money is in Labour’s budget and has been accounted for. All experts confirm this. Either Joyce and English are fools or liars. There is no other possibility.

   And here is the video on the issue from last night’s debate …
   • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1

     5 September 2017 at 7:57 am

     English is a fool to tell lies about sums. Even my mate who owns a calculator can do them.
     • tracey 7.1.1

       5 September 2017 at 11:28 am

       When it has worked since late 2007 and 47% of the voting electorate (+Act’s .4%), and most of the media haven’t cared, why would you stop?
8. Bearded Git 8

   5 September 2017 at 8:00 am

   Good post r0b….Ganesh very convincing on Morning Report a few minutes ago saying that there is no hole in Labour’s accounts, in fact he said Labour’s are more “honest and transparent” in that they specify where money would be spent compared with National’s that doesn’t.

   It will be so good to see the back of Joyce as a minister. Voting starts in 6 days.
   • Ross 8.1

     5 September 2017 at 8:22 am

     To be fair to Joyce his expertise, if he has any, is likely to be in the area of animal behaviour (he has a degree in zoology). To have Joyce opine about the economy is like having the Boston Strangler discuss the qualities needed to be a good door to door salesman.
     • Bearded Git 8.1.1

       5 September 2017 at 8:53 am

       LOL
     • tracey 8.1.2

       5 September 2017 at 11:28 am

       This, Sir, is GOLD!
   • Zeroque 8.2

     5 September 2017 at 8:57 am

     Totally agree with this.
9. One Anonymous Bloke 9

   5 September 2017 at 8:00 am

   Patrick Gower and Newshub let everyone down. They had enough time to talk to Ganesh Nana, and instead they let Bill English shit all over BERL’s credibility, rather than putting a blowtorch on him for endorsing Joyce’s lies.
   • tc 9.1

     5 September 2017 at 9:30 am

     They didn’t let their owners and media minders down, you mistakenly think they serve the public …good poodle paddy.

     A progressive govt needs to sort out the media landscape if it wants a fair go or this will continue and get worse once nact are gone from govt.

     Gut tvnz, create a public broadcaster styled tv1 using the rest to fund it. Legislate it in place like the abc act in oz does.

     Its obvious youre dicking with it when its got its own act you have to alter. Take note of what turdbulls done and legislate against that as a fine start.

     We need to start creating quality kiwi dramas, kids, comedies etc again alongside a robust stand alone news operation.

     Tvnz used to be good at it until it went SOE on us.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1

       5 September 2017 at 11:47 am

       Abandon the failed SOE model altogether and go back to providing public services.
10. Pete 10

    5 September 2017 at 8:07 am

    Is the question an either/or or can we pick both?
11. Ross 11

    5 September 2017 at 8:18 am

    Being the honourable bloke he is Joyce will issue a public apology to Labour today which will be the lead story on all mainstream news bulletins. 🙂
12. Robert Guyton 12

    5 September 2017 at 8:26 am

    Dishonest, deliberately deceptive and desperate (and other “d” words).
    • WILD KATIPO 12.1

      5 September 2017 at 8:38 am

      And here’s an ‘M’ word , – manipulator.

      John Campbell didn’t leave TV3 because he woke up one day and said ‘I’m bored of being a front man ‘…

      There’s a lot more to Stephen Joyce the ‘minister for everything ‘ than meets the eye.
      • tracey 12.1.1

        5 September 2017 at 11:30 am

        I have long called him Karl Rove.

        “Karl Rove was often called “Bush’s Brain” for his political genius in directing George W. Bush’s successful campaigns for governor of Texas and president of the United States.”
13. Kaplan 13

    5 September 2017 at 8:40 am

    A liar for the false analysis and a fool for thinking it would work.
    • tc 13.1

      5 September 2017 at 9:36 am

      Worked before and scaremongering is all they’ve got as their gutting and destruction is too blatant for soft swinging voters to ignore this time.
14. silvertuatara 14

    5 September 2017 at 8:49 am

    Gower, in asking the question of English about Joyce’s underhanded and completely untrue attack on Labour’s numbers, helped propagate the misinformation spread late in the piece in National’s predetermined strategy to lie publicly in a smear campaign that had no valid basis, is complicit with spreading the incorrect information.

    Gower should front foot an apology to the NZ Taxpayers, on behalf of his sloppy moderating , and on behalf of his network. Joyce’s scaremongering had already been publicly discounted well before the debate went to air by the very persons and organisations that Jacinda referred to in her response.

    In Gower asking such question of English, makes a mockery of what accurate and ethical journalism should be about. There is no doubt that the MSM should today be calling for both Joyces, English’s and Gower’s public apologies on this specific matter. I will however not be holding my breath on this matter…..If Matthew Hooton can be given National broadcasting space in the guise of providing an accurate summation of the debate, to only champion English’s and Nationals cause…..there is little hope at this stage for the media operation whom held last night’s second debate to conduct an impartial debate least apologise for placing English in a position to be able to lie, on matters that had already been clarified publicly as being made up by National’s Stephen Joyce, in true Dirty Politics style.
    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1

      5 September 2017 at 8:54 am

      Yep.

      “First question to Jacinda Ardern: today National falsely claimed there’s an $11bn hole in your accounts. What standard of honesty will you require from yourself and your cabinet ministers?”

      Tv3 and Gower owe BERL an apology at the very least.
      • silvertuatara 14.1.1

        5 September 2017 at 9:38 am

        You have to ask yourself why then,when this news article by Tony Wright titled Leaders Debate: Fact checking the leaders released on 4/9/17 following the leaders debate

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/leaders-debate-fact-checking-the-leaders.html

        in relation to Stephen Joyce’s/National incorrectly claiming that Labour is missing $11.7b from its fiscal budget concluded with the following assessment/verdict: There is no $11.7b hole in Labour’s fiscal budget, at least as far as we can tell

        that Newshub still have this news article by Anna Bracewell-Worrall titled Leaders debate: Ardern and English clash over Budget ‘black hole’

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/leaders-debate-ardern-and-english-clash-over-budget-black-hole.html

        which does not make it clear that Joyce’s an English’s attacks were unfounded, inaccurate and should be seen as Jacinda called English and National out for as just plain “scaremongering” which in my mind is both deceitful and clearly steeped in the National Party lying in a desperate attempt to stay in power way past their expiry date.

        NewsHub, should either immediately retract/remove Anna Bracewell-Worrall’s video and piece, or alternatively place a prominent disclaimer within the body of the article at both the beginning and the end noting that Joyce, English and National are wrong in asserting that there was over an 11 billion shortfall in Labour’s fiscal package.
15. mary_a 15

    5 September 2017 at 9:08 am

    “Steven Joyce – Liar or fool?”

    Both apply to mischief making Herr Joyce, because Natz is sinking fast into the odious, foul swamp it created and he knows it! So it’s desperate measures for desperate times now for Natz.
16. greywarshark 16

    5 September 2017 at 9:14 am

    Bill English is often said to be wooden in his speech. He actually could be compared to be a wall to bounce statements from. That is the reason why he would repeat something untrue that Joyless said. English is a handy squash court for bouncing the fibs of National off for never-ending return shots. A small arena, enclosed, and following rigid rules that apply to that particular game, which is separate from the outside activities of the majority of NZs.
    • tracey 16.1

      5 September 2017 at 11:33 am

      There is the other lie too. That 50,000 children will be lifted out of poverty by National’s current Families package. To date they have not acknowledged poverty exists, refuse to measure it and have no poverty policy. Talk about black holes.
    • dukeofurl 16.2

      5 September 2017 at 11:36 am

      English has decided to give up the wooden man persona, and after more acting

      lessons than you need to get a role on Shortland St, hes come out waving his arms

      – just like the wooden marionette Pinocchio
17. One Two 17

    5 September 2017 at 9:15 am

    The real questions regarding all things fiscal and monetary are obfuscated by on every sides

    Singling out any of the ‘liars’ for special attention, is trite

    Pressure needs to raised through the open discourse about budgets et al..

    Until then, they’re all liars!
    • tracey 17.1

      5 September 2017 at 11:34 am

      At least Labour wrote theirs down and got in independently analysesd. PREFU has fucked up Bill several times in this election now… and they ar ehis numbers.
18. ianmac 18

    5 September 2017 at 9:19 am

    A desperate fool and liar. HE can see the writing on the wall and tries an all or nothing throw. But if the Minister of Finance doesn’t understand how $11 billion is allocated he should not be MOF and what does that say about the PM ex MOF?
19. Darth smith 19

    5 September 2017 at 10:06 am

    He’s a liar no doutime there desperate all they have after 9 years is lies
20. savenz 20

    5 September 2017 at 12:48 pm

    Didn’t Steven Joyce fail economics at university?

    From Wiki about Joyce,

    “He helped create Auckland Transport as a council-controlled organisation for Auckland. Joyce stated that “Auckland will need a good agency focused on delivering the projects that have been agreed by council” and noting that Council had a number of ways of ensuring that the entity was accountable.[13]”

    “In May 2013, he signed a deal with casino Skycity Auckland, allowing it to install an additional 230 pokie machines and 40 new gambling tables, in exchange for building a $402 million convention centre.”

    Based on these disasters in his track record of accountability and deals for the tax payer and society, I would label Joyce as both a liar and a fool.
21. Tricledrown 21

    5 September 2017 at 1:50 pm

    Loose you’re self Eminem.
    Pretty legal Dildo Joyce claims
22. ianmac 22

    5 September 2017 at 2:34 pm

    A bit peculiar but I think Joyce is shifting ground and apparently saying the economists were misunderstanding what he was saying. Huh?

    “Sep 5, 2017 1:36 PM
    Stacey Kirk
    Hello all,
    I’m in our Auckland office for a bit before I check into the Jacinda Ardern camp at her next engagement this afternoon.
    But I did just tune into our livestream of Steven Joyce subtly shifting his stance on Labour’s figures, though not backing down that they leave no money for anything other than health and education.
    The crux of it is that Joyce is standing by the $11.7b hole – but he doesn’t mean that money is necessarily missing from Labour’s plan, rather, once the money goes to education and health – there’s no room for anything else.
    It may be budgeted, says Joyce. The numbers may add up, but there is no cumulative funding allocated for things like police wages, teachers wages, DOC operations and science funding.
    Joyce argued that he was misquoted by a few economists, who misinterpreted what he was presenting.
    He’s challenging Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson to simply point out where Labour has budgeted for police wages, and general operating expenses like that.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96496294/live-on-the-campaign-trail–tuesday
    A
23. NZJester 23

    5 September 2017 at 3:20 pm

    National have always lied about the countries finances. The first big lie of the current National Government was when they took over the treasury from the previous Labour Government. They claimed the country was in terrible shape financially and borrowed money to give tax cuts. However, the books they actually inherited from Labour were balanced and our debt paid off with sufficient income to support the running of this country. Something Nation immediately went about screwing up. They then said they would not increase taxes and claimed G.S.T. was not a tax when they increased it (Even though the T stands for tax) to support their tax cuts for the rich. The extra money in the average workers pocket from the drop in P.A.Y.E. was lost and more to the higher prices of everyday essential good. The poor paid for the rich to get a tax break over that tax swap.
24. Ms Fargo 24

    5 September 2017 at 5:36 pm

    Fake news, or a liar or a fool?…
    • Rob 24.1

      6 September 2017 at 2:08 am

      Classic example of Fake News labour need to be careful with this and call it what it is.
25. B__ 25

    5 September 2017 at 11:23 pm

    He is a fool, whether or not he is a liar. This is his arithmetic version of “pretty legal”. Thus, we have a Deputy PM and Minister of Police who does not understand human rights, and a Finance Minister who is semi-numerate. Bill English debated well, and there is merit in his ideas on evidence-based policy and the “moral and fiscal failure” of our prisons, amongst others. If he had the good sense to change his allegiance, there could even be a place for him in the next government.

Links to post

1. A test for NZ media and democracy « The Standard: posted on 5 September 2017 at 11:01 am
2. Turn left, turn left, TURN LEFT!!! Hey New Zealand where have all the Socialists gone? – Left in New Zealand: posted on 22 September 2017 at 5:21 pm

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