Tape hearing

Written By: - Date published: 1:13 pm, November 22nd, 2011 - 53 comments
Categories: election 2011, john key, law - Tags: ,

The hearing on the legality of the teapot tapes has been underway since 10am. The Herald has coverage of early news, and The Listener is filtering useful content out of Twitter (or see the feed direct on #votenz). We’ll update this post as events develop.

Update:  According to reporter Derek Cheng (#dchengnzh) inside the courtroom “Judge reserved decision til 215 tomoro #votenz #ambrose“.

Update: 3 News notes the decision.

53 comments on “Tape hearing”

  1. Frida 1

    Why, according to the Herald, is the Solicitor-General there “representing the Crown”?

    We are told this was a private matter, no “public interest” then for the Solicitor-General to be arguing for?

    It will be interesting to see what, if any, submissions he makes. He can’t make any in support of Key and Banks, he has no basis to do so.

    • ianmac 1.1

      Key has his own lawyer there to protect his interests. “Key has lawyer Andrew Caisley representing him.”
      I guess that Key’s credibility is at stake and it is therefore not surprising that the Solicitor General will argue that no declaration should be made at this time.

    • insider 1.2

      Maybe because there is a police investigation going on. THe judge has commented with apparant concern that her giving a ruling when an issue is live could be prejudicial in some way.

      • Bunnykinz 1.2.1

        Yeah, I heard that the Solicitor General was arguing that “a court declaration would be inappropriate because police were still investigating”. At the risk of sounding really dumb, surely if the judgement finds that JoKey and JoBanks had no expectation of privacy, there should not be a police investigation? I am genuinely asking. If the judgement finds that the reporter has done nothing wrong, would that not mean that the police investigation is not into criminality, but just something that JoKey found personally annoying?

        All serious answers welcome.

        • aerobubble 1.2.1.1

          Surely if no charges have been laid then there can be no prejudical outcome. i.e. no
          bruises have yet been seen that would confirm the allegation that I beat my wife. In
          fact the court is basically in discussion whether the PM use of shia law applies, that
          reporters who accidently record the PM at an open press conference should be
          flogged openly.

  2. RobertM 2

    Seems an extrordianarily trivial business for the police to be threatening raids on four media outlets. Surely the solicitor general should be neutral during an election. Its a bit like Watergate. Nixon would not have been so desperate to avoid releasing them if they weren’t damaging. Why invite the media and public if you didn’t want coverage.

    • Frida 2.1

      Exactly Robert. If the AG is named as contradictor to the proceeding, the SG must appear. But in my view he can’t give submissions either way. He must stay neutral.

      Does John Key have all the officers of the State in his back pocket then?

      • queenstfarmer 2.1.1

        The AG is there (represented by SG) because it directly affects an active police investigation. The AG protects the ability of the police to investigate – part of their role. This is standard procedure in NZ., Aus, UK, etc

    • insider 2.2

      Calling it ‘threatening’ and a ‘raid’ is emotive overegging. I’ve been in situations where police have asked for information from my company and we’ve insisted on a search warrant to protect our interests. Did they raid us when they came to get it? No. They rang and made an appointment. It’s basically a process they are following and the warrant gives legal authority. All very civilised.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        Ah, the police searching of media and journalist organisations just before democratic elections is “all very civilised”.

    • You are correct it does seems a bit over the top for something so trivial . Som what’s on the bloody thing .Why would a PM go to such lengths to have this closed to the public . Perhaps it could loose him the election .
      Once again whats on the bloody thing ? Maybe its dynamite !!

  3. Treetop 3

    Had there been no tape, I would be confident to say that parts of the meeting would have been reported by the media.

    What would Key and Banks have done?
    Denied what they said, knowing that it could not be proved.
    Said that the conversation was private.

    I want to know if anyone over heard Banks and Key and for them to state what they over heard?

    • insider 3.1

      Ironically they might have said ‘there;s no tape to prove we said that, it’s not the kind of thing we would have talked about, so the listener obviously misheard’….

  4. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4

    Relax. The Solicitor General is there because the freelancer is asking for a ruling on whether a crime has been committed. Crimes are offences against the Crown. hence why the Solicitor General is there representing the Crown.

    • Blighty 4.1

      no. This hearing isn’t about whether there was a crime but whether the meeting was in a public place (and, hence, can’t have been a crime). A negative finding in this case doesn’t prove there was a crime, just that one element of the crime is met. This is not a criminal hearing.

      Now I see why they call your gormless.

      • queenstfarmer 4.1.1

        Not quite, Blighty. It is actually about whether there was a crime. If the conversation was ruled to be non-private, it would effectively halt the criminal prosecution. That is why the AG is involved – the ruling directly affects a criminal investigation, and the police’s ability to investigate.

        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.1.1.1

          Blighty, I was explaining why the SG was involved. He is not there (as the more conspiratorily-minded Standard readers had suggested) to “bat” for John Key. He was there because the Crown (not Key) was implicated in the decision.

          And what, exactly, do “they” call “my” Gormless?

          • hoom 4.1.1.1.1

            Would it be prejudicial to the criminal investigation of an alleged murder for it to be pointed out that the alleged victim is actually alive and unharmed? Obviously not.

            • aerobubble 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Is it prejudical that a ongoing investigation is used as qualification of guilt? in order to stop this court case to find whether the focusing of cameras and location of members of the public and press, all of whom could very well of heard, even publise another report with the PM voice in the background??

              Imagine that, the PM asking all the press to stop and desist any work when they were invited there!

      • Frida 4.1.2

        Exactly Blighty.

  5. Dv 5

    The tape was haneded to secuity by Key.

    How did Ambrose then get the tape?

    Di nobody have a look in the bag and see it was a tape running?

    • Lanthanide 5.1

      The recording device was confiscated by security. It was a wireless recorder as is commonly used for lapel microphones.

      The actual recording (‘tape’) was captured on Bradley’s video camera. It wasn’t until he got home that he realised he had the audio recording at all.

      • insider 5.1.1

        And that’s the bit that I find hard to believe because he left the camera buttoned on the whole time, capturing the complete conversation. Most cameramen I know are like kids with ADD – they can never keep still and record one thing in a busy environment for that long; they are always chopping and changing shots.

        • Lanthanide 5.1.1.1

          Other journalists/cameramen have said that running his camera for the full 8-9 minutes isn’t “that” unusual and is more a matter of personal style than anything else.

          With digital cameras, such as he was using, every time you start and stop you get a new file created. It’s easier to edit footage when it’s just a single file. So there is actually a technical reason for why someone might want to record in this manner.

          • Dv 5.1.1.1.1

            Thats helpfull.

            Ok the security found the remote mike.
            Why did they not ask where the mother base was?

            • Lanthanide 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Why didn’t they prevent the recording in the first place, or properly usher everyone out of the cafe?

              Incompetence is the answer to both questions.

          • insider 5.1.1.1.2

            Re the single file, could be right but my experience with home movies is that I get a huge file that is really hard for my PC to manipulate and would be much easier in small bites (assuming you are right that new files are created – pro cameras might record differently FAIK). No doubt the pros have the memory on their systems to cope. But we are assuming he was working on solid state memory not digital video tape, which is still used and is just as digital.

            • lprent 5.1.1.1.2.1

              Audio is very small and highly compressible. Many cameras these days run external mikes on a different channel and different storage, and frequently from a different device. You put it back together with time stamps.

              Data volumes on cameras come almost entirely from video. Much much larger data, and much harder to compress in real time and those CCDs the power. Camera people will concentrate on reducing video. It wouldn’t surprise me if they leave external audio running.

  6. Nick K 6

    He then accidentally gave it the HoS & TV3.

  7. Treetop 8

    Decision has been reserved at the High Court.

    Judgement to be delivered at 2.15 pm tomorrow.

    Nine lawyers at the hearing.

  8. Tiger Mountain 9

    Stinks high. Solicitor General has put 5 cents worth in according to RNZ 4:30pm news. Said the judge is in the position of acting as a jury. The robed one’s phone will be running hot tonite.
    What a joe hunt ShonKey is when it comes down to it.

  9. Adrian 10

    He gave it to the HOS because he was working for them. It was their recording, the same way anything you make when working for someone belongs to them.

    • Lanthanide 10.1

      Actually the HoS editor talked about their working relationship. He gives content to HoS, who may choose to use the material. If they use it, they pay him. If they don’t, they don’t.

      In this case the material he gave them is somewhat out of their normal working arrangement, but he handed it over because he didn’t have much else better to do with it.

  10. ianmac 11

    Judge to act as jury? Isn’t that what NACT have set up to shift some criminal trials away from juries to judge alone?

  11. Tiger Mountain 12

    Adrian you seem unaware of the “Hobbit Enabling Act” and other law that covers freelancers and determines that many people in the film and media industry are contractors not employees. Of course such people are able to join a union, too few do, and to enter into short term contracts or just invoice for work done. Copyright to digital media or other work again is up for grabs depending on the relationship and what if anything has been agreed. All scummy practices in the case of people that could rightly often be considered employees (dependent contractors).

    So it will be somewhat ironic if ShonKey ends up on the receiving end of labour relations he drove in the Warners sell out.

    • Lanthanide 12.1

      People can choose to enter into those sorts of working relationships even before the hobit legislation was passed. I get the impression that it is the way Bradley has been working for some years now.

  12. ianmac 13

    Privacy in a cafe? Remember a District Council (Wellington?) telling staff to NOT have council meetings in cafes because they can be and have been overheard?
    Rather telling I would have thought.

  13. rod 14

    John Key. John Banks and their minders didn’t see a little black pouch on the next table. Should have gone to Specsavers!

    • freedom 14.1

      next table rod? , ha! it was by John Key’s elbow the whole time, right there, twenty inches from his face

  14. Dv 15

    I Have a theory.

    Key wants out.
    Sets it up so Peters gets traction.
    Goff wins, but needs Peters.

    Key then resigns as per promise.

    • Lanthanide 15.1

      If he wanted out he could just resign. Stupid.

      • felix 15.1.1

        He could, but I don’t think he would. Not a good look on the cv to resign because you’ve had enough, much better for the history books to resign over a matter of principle.*

        *Not that I think he’s resigning just yet, but if he was then I reckon it’d fit his m.o. to engineer some plausible** reason for leaving so soon.

        **Although I don’t think he has much grasp of what constitutes a matter of principle, so it quite likely wouldn’t end up being all that plausible. 🙂

        • weka 15.1.1.1

          When Goff asked him last night, for the second time, whether National would sell Kiwibank, Key said “no…not while I’m Prime Minister”. Now, who feels reassured?

          • felix 15.1.1.1.1

            Yeah I reckon he’s buggering off, just not yet.

            • Armchair Critic 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Have a look at his cv and see how long he tends to stick at a job – IIRC when I looked a year or two back, his maximum is about four or five years, with a median of about two years. He’s stuck to this PM gig pretty well, but he won’t do another full term.

  15. tc 16

    Still think this is pure diversionary tactics after sideshow started double counting the asset sale proceeds….the more it runs the more folk don’t focus on the plundering that’s going to happen if they get back in.

    Most swingers I’ve come across side with NACT based in the evil media line so it’s working for them.

  16. Tiger Mountain 17

    @ Lanth 12.1 (got bumped down the queue). I get that Lanthanide, just putting it in context. Adrian claimed Bradley Ambrose was working for the Herald on Sunday and that the HoS ‘owned’ the recording. But was he? and even if he was, was he really? in terms of what kind of relationship existed. Notwithstanding who might have ownership of any recording or files.

    I know camera guys that cover horse and car racing and edit as well and the production companies treat them like crap playing one off against the other as to who will work the more ridiculous hours etc.

  17. Dv 18

    La

    he probally has a position on ipredict to protect.

  18. AAMC 19

    What I’m trying to understand, whatever the consequences, as an Editor of a newspaper, if this had legs, publish the bloody thing already and then fight the legal battle after.

    2 possibilities, either the MSM truly is complicit and don’t want to damage National Inc, or it’s actually not the scandal it being painted as and it’s not worth publishing.

    Either way, for HoS to retain/gain any credibility as an objective journalistic voice, it should have printed the thing the moment they got their hands on it!

  19. peterlepaysan 20

    Puppet Key (Pinocchio) and his puppeteers have stuffed up big time.

    It was a while ago when Abe Lincoln made his observation about fooling people.

    It is still true.

    It is even longer ago when Lord Acton made his observation about power and corruption.

    It is still true.

    National have ben banking on an absolute majority one party victory.

    This is starting to look very doubtful.

    MMP makes it very unlikely that one party rule is likely.

    MMP was imposed on Germany after WW2 precisely for that reason.

    MMP weakens the power that assorted lobby groups can exert on governments.

    Interesting that Russia, Britain , or the USA did not adopt the system.

    Interesting that Germany is calling the shots in Europe.

    Russia, Britain, and the USA do not look so flash.

    Pinocchio Key (and Crosby/Textor) have completely misread the situation and have attempted
    to turn an incident into a major event.

    Hopefully it will come back and bite them (hard).

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    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago

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