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The Mandate To Say Goodbye

Written By: - Date published: 8:38 am, November 17th, 2021 - 210 comments
Categories: covid-19, education, health, human rights, religion, uncategorized - Tags:

Amana Christian School Principal Roslyn King, unvaccinated, as of yesterday cannot enter the grounds of her school.

The school has lost two of their four staff and the Principal claims it is one of the darkest days in New Zealand education.

There are many such stories rippling through the media at the moment.

The latest 1 News Colmar Brunton Poll showed 74% of those polled supported mandates now in place for teachers, healthcare workers and port, border and prison workers.

Twenty percent were opposed and 6% did not know.

In the next two weeks we will find out how many teachers in New Zealand are immune to facts, were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves, and after decades enforcing state rules in daily attendance and behaviours of young people at school could not themselves be subject to that same force of state.

Will there be any disproportionality of those walking away from teaching due to the vaccine mandate who are evangelical Christians or any other Integrated School minority? They’re due for a scorch if there is.

Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do.

For those who practise ignorance and pedagogical corruption, it is indeed one of their darkest days. They will join the ranks of those finding something else to do.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

For teachers and school management who stay and are vaccinated, they are more than ever illuminated as more than teachers: they are rebuilding this damaged society.

Our entire education system from daycare to doctorate has been upended by COVID and ours has been responding well, though the disruption remains bewildering.

For those school students being taught, and for the school system itself, teachers walking out due to the vaccine mandate will become one of New Zealand educations’ quickest renewal programmes yet seen.

Goodbye Roslyn.

210 comments on “The Mandate To Say Goodbye ”

  1. Visubversa 1

    Teachers who think "Jesus is my vaccine" should not be within a bull's roar of a classroom.

    • weka 1.1

      People who think vaccine is my Jesus are in for a sharp wake up in the coming years as the realities of the limits of vaccination become apparent. Yes, yes, it's the best tool we have, but it's not the only one, and too many people are putting all our eggs on one basket.

      Best we tread a middle path, the argument is over where that lies.

      • Phil 1.1.1

        People who think vaccine is my Jesus

        Nobody thinks that.

        • weka 1.1.1.1

          yes they do. There are people who very strongly believe in vaccines and science in a similar way that other people believe in god. One true way. And I've had the arguments here on TS with people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism. Nothing wrong with it, per se just be honest, and then let's have the conversation about the limits of that view.

          How many people in NZ are preaching this atm? Not many.

          • weka 1.1.1.1.1

            to keep this on topic with the post, we should be talking a lot, right now, about additional ways to limit spread in schools.

            we also should be talking about what the people without income are going to end up doing to pay rent and eat. Ad can write them off as immune to facts, but the post itself is kind of evangelical (that's not a slur btw). Teachers as the new illuminated ones because we've cast the sinners out.

          • Sanctuary 1.1.1.1.2

            What is your view on vaccine mandates and your vaccine status Weka? Because this statement –

            "…people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism…"

            is complete pile of steaming horseshit. Science is a method of inquiry, not a point of view – the very opposite of fundamentalism. So let's do some science. According to Our World in Data 7.54 BILLION doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide.

            https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_WRL

            The number of people worldwide who have harmed by the vaccine is so small anti-vaxxers are having trouble finding any. To me, the statement that vaccines are safe and do no harm is obvious from the real world numbers.

            I don't give a brass razoo for your opinion, but facts matter.

            And for the record, I am fully vaccinated and will soon get my six month booster, and I would support an Austrian style lockdown of the unvaxxed if I had my way.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.2.1

              I support the vaccine programme, I think it's going to give NZ the best chance of not becoming a shit show like the UK, we are very lucky in our timing. I've got mixed feelings about the mandates. I think they're necessary, but I also think we could be using more tools that would ease the impact of that. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm concerned that we are digging in deep divisions, these will be long term and cause other problems.

              To me, the statement that vaccines are safe and do no harm is obvious from the real world numbers.

              Sure, you choose to frame it like this but it's not actually true to say they do no harm. Some people are harmed. Why not be honest about it.

              As for the real world numbers, please show me the research on post-vaccine flare and relapse rates for the many auto immune and other chronic illness conditions where people's real world lives are being impacted. Afaik people with AI conditions were largely excluded from the vaccine trials, so there is not a lot of data on that, and while there is increasing attention being given to the impact on them, it's still not the kind of real world numbers that you are putting your faith in.

              And that right there is the nub of it. You've used google for confirmation bias. I've spent the past 6 months listening to people, various disease associations, and doctors who treat those people. We know there are issues, but the faith in vaccine people are in denial and run lines of safe/no harm and engage in the kind of debate that suppresses discussion.

              Nothing I have said here is anti-vax, but as soon as I start talking about this, it's like all people can do is say 'but the vaccine is safer!!!'. Well duh, of course it is, but safer =/= safe/no harm. People with disabilities need really good science to help them cope with the impacts (and yes, in some cases, avoid the impacts) and this blind faith in the vaccine as Good and True actually harms us. In the real world.

              • weka

                and please spare me the binary response. I'm sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity. That you took my previous comment to be an anti-vax position is all about your thinking, not mine.

                • Sanctuary

                  Things are pretty damn binary all right. Death is a pretty binary state with life. There is no "…sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity." That statement is arrant nonsense. There is get vaxxed and don't be a useless mantlepiece ornament but instead pull your weight in a national crisis.

                  • Gypsy

                    People die of all sorts of things, and we don't promote the level of hysteria we do around Covid. I'm pro vaxx and double vaxxed, but if you think going all chicken little is actually productive, you're contributing more heat than light.

                    • KJT

                      "I'm pro vacc and double vacced".

                      So. "I'm all right and fuck the kid down the road with asthma who ends up in ED every time they have a cold". Interfering with my "freedom". "Lets not go all chicken little".

                      That atitude fucks me off as much as the lying from anti-vaccers.

                  • weka

                    Things are pretty damn binary all right. Death is a pretty binary state with life. There is no "…sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity." That statement is arrant nonsense. There is get vaxxed and don't be a useless mantlepiece ornament but instead pull your weight in a national crisis.

                    And that is your philosophical belief. You see things in black and white, and there's no room for the greyzone of disabled people's needs. They can safely be ignored, right?

                • weka

                  meanwhile, actual clinicians are reporting flares.

                  https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/10/1352

                  I suggest you click through on your link and look at the research.

                  Do you know what this is saying? https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/Suppl_1/200

                  The second research in your link says,

                  Disease flares were reported by 5% (73/1375) of patients with inflammatory RMDs, with 1.2% (17/1375) classified as severe flares.

                  https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/Suppl_1/199.abstract

                  Shall we just pretend they don't exist?

                  • roblogic

                    Remember to include "what if I catch Covid" in your risk assessment.

                    • weka

                      of course, but as you can tell I'm getting sick of the binary thinkers going 'oh but you will get covid if you don't vax, so never mind the relapse'. So please stop saying that stuff to me.

                  • KJT

                    "Conclusion: The safety profiles for COVID-19 vaccines in RMD patients was reassuring. Most adverse events were the same as in the general population, they were non-serious and involved short term local and systemic symptoms. The overwhelming majority of patients tolerated their vaccination well with rare reports of inflammatory RMD flare (5%; 1.2% severe) and very rare reports of severe adverse events (0.1%). These initial findings should provide reassurance to rheumatologists and vaccine recipients, and promote confidence in COVID-19 vaccine safety in RMD patients, namely those with inflammatory RMDs and/or taking treatments that influence their immune system".

                    • Gypsy

                      "So. "I'm all right and fuck the kid down the road with asthma who ends up in ED every time they have a cold"."

                      The kid down the road with asthma is extremely unlikely to catch Covid from me. He's also unable to get vaccinated yet, so you're really not making any sense.

                    • weka

                      yes. 5% and1.2%. Fuck them, who cares anyway.

                    • KJT

                      5% and 1.5%. so about the same amount of flare ups in the unvaccinated group with the same underlying condition.

                      Which is why they reach the conclusion in the study that they did.

                      .

                  • roblogic

                    Sounds like you have valid reasons for concern. Unfortunately most of the antivax stuff is off the wall nuts. Like "Covid isn't real", "There are massive coverups of vaccine deaths", "Labour is bringing in a communist revolution" (I wish!), or the theologically dubious "Jesus died so that we could have freedom and human rights"

            • Ross 1.1.1.1.2.2

              Science is a method of inquiry, not a point of view

              Which can be corrupted by money. You appear to know little about Pandemrix, which is a shame because it illustrates the problems when the pursuit of profits trumps doing the right thing.

            • Julian Richards 1.1.1.1.2.3

              "Oh won't somebody think of the children"… Lock down the unvaccinated you say?

              Maybe that's not acceptable in definition, as children, as shown by science are at best of extremely minimal risk of covid19 effects(excluding immune system annomoles/co-morbitities)… How old is a child by definition? The science also clearly shows the risks associated with covid19 are predominantly a moving chronological scale with age (again excluding co-morbitities etc)… The devil is in the details of all this politicised life science/economics. Will the children be the next group blamed for transmission in communities? Well seek someone to blame… As the social-science has shown.

              It's okay that we're not immortal creatures yet (aside maybe from the dull social media versions of ourselves).

              Even this rhetoric of screaming inside the ego "anti-vaxers", my 'god' this 'label' is being thrown at many who are NOT antivaccination, as we've all (90something% or more) had vaccines of the former only accepted vaccine technologies. And yes, those who choose to think differently from the herd are rightly concerned and should be given a choice if they're faced with expulsion from a society. What the hell is wrong with us? This fear of everything at present is so unwarranted, and can simply be avoided with listening not disregarding and expelling an individual or group of ethnicity etc… Why the hell are we not mature enough to give communication, forgiveness, understanding, acceptance… You know, love! We really need to reasses the principles and practices (ethics) of social consciousness we're about to implement here, where they're coming from right now, and into our future (children… "oh the children".. )… Have to move out of this place of fear and hate, as this seems to be where much of these measures are coming from. It feels we're doing a huge detriment to future civilization because of our time line/age/fear..

              P.S. The article above sounds very much like an 'emotional sermon' itself. Just saying.

              • theotherpat

                well said but these days its all about "me"…tolerance and forgiveness have no dollar value

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.2.4

              The number of people worldwide who have harmed by the vaccine is so small anti-vaxxers are having trouble finding any.

              I'd link to a site that conveys the abject despair of thousands who rushed to the mRNA injections with open arms only to be felled with serious and seemingly permanent adverse effects. But I won't because some fucker from google or the like will shut it down and then these folk will have nowhere to go.

              Interestingly, others have told them that some sets of symptoms are almost text book 'Long Covid'…strange because most of the jabinjured have not had (or were of the many who did not know they had) Covid. Interestingly I, and some others I know up here have also had some of these 'Long Covid' symptoms. All a bit weird.

              One thing that's emerging from the vast number of accounts is that those who have had Covid and them get vjabbed seem more prone to getting the nasty side effects.

              But of course we're not allowed to talk about the side effects, are we? What's a few, over 200, youngsters with heart damage between the team of 5 million? Youngsters who could have had had a dose of Covid and most likely shrugged it off. Too fucking late now for them.

              When did Stuffed or the Herald or the spew that is television last do an in depth piece on those who have been injured by the Pfizer product?

              Vicious vaccine mandates have failed to get all over the line in other countries…countries where the bodies have been piling up in the streets…why do you think that is?

              • solkta

                Not another "i would provide a link but it's bollocks".

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Tell you what….google 'chest pain, irregular heartbeat, shortness of breath, pain and/or numbness in left arm for weeks, extreme dizziness, nausea, after Covid vaccine'. You could , toss in 'feeling like head is going to explode or wearing too tight a hat'. Or 'tinnitus'. Or 'severe menstrual bleeding 10 years after menopause'.

                  • Tricledrown

                    Rosemary Google up Irelands daily Covid infection rate 4,200 a day or death rate maybe you would prefer we had 10 times that without vaccination with 1/3 suffering some sort of long covid.

                    • weka

                      Please don't do that. If you believe that Rosemary wants people to die or get long covid, you will have to link to where she says that.

                      Her pointing to side effects doesn't equate to wanting people to die. Why are you even saying that?

              • Tricledrown

                200 youngsters where did you get that figure the only figure I saw in your link was 216 for all ages .

                So I think you are scaremongering.

                No where did I see your claim.

                Of course their will be some side effects many with underlying health conditions. My Son inlaw had a serious anaphalactic episode but it was dealt with quickly and he recovered quickly he has underlying health conditions and was expecting something to go wrong. On his second dose he took the medication provided and no side effects this time.

                My grand so who was under 12 but the Dr in France said because he was big as an adult would be OK he suffered serious side effects but came right with medical aid immediately but had an rash skin falling off his nose a Giant pimple under his chin that lasted 4 days He was fine otherwise.Then he was over 12 on his second dose no side effects.

                That didn't put any of us off as my family lived through the worst of the outbreak in France .while in lockdown the only sound they heard was a constant siren sound of ambulances coming and going.

                And the horrific death toll.

                While no vaccine is perfect it's better than the alternative.

              • Sacha

                thousands who rushed to the mRNA injections with open arms only to be felled with serious and seemingly permanent adverse effects

                If that's say 5,000 then you're looking at 0.0007% of the 7,540,000,000 total doses administered from Sanc's source above.

                Even at 50,000 it's 0.007%.

                500,000 is 0.07%.

                Most medical treatments would love to have that harm rate. All clinical practices and substances cause a degree of harm. That's weighed up against the benefits and the risk of non-treatment. With a lethal pandemic, it's not a hard decision.

          • Frank Macskasy 1.1.1.1.3

            "…people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism"

            But if you produce no evidence to back up that strange statement, then how else should we look at your assertion?

            Especially when the facts don't back you up.

            Considering we've had over 7 million vax doses given out, and only one confirmed fatality (a women in her 90s), then yes, its science.

            Ref: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#daily

            Ref: https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp#death

            The top 10 reported adverse events were:

            • Dizziness: 10,616 reports
            • Headache: 10,128 reports
            • Lethargy: 8,134 reports
            • Pain at the injection site: 8,121 reports
            • Nausea: 7,244 reports
            • Chest discomfort: 4,981 reports
            • Influenza-like illness: 4,486 reports
            • Fever: 4,445 reports
            • Fainting: 3,071 reports
            • Numbness: 3,040 reports

            Ref: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-and-reactions#reported

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.3.1

              Some of these people probably wish they were dead…dismiss them…

              Guillain-Barré Syndrome14

              Thrombocytopenia23

              Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS)0

              Anaphylaxisb82

              Myocardial infarction (heart attack)38

              Myocarditis/pericarditis216

              Thrombosis39

              Embolism77

              Deep vein thrombosis (DVT)72

              Vasculitis55

              Haemorrhage94

              Acute kidney injury13

              Acute liver injury<6

              Pancreatitis<6

              Aseptic meningitis<6

              Encephalitis<6

              stroke72

              Bell's Palsy/facial paralysis117

              Myelitis/myelitis transverse<6

              Erythema multiforme9

              Arthritis39

              Herpes zoster201

              Abortion (spontaneous abortion /miscarriage)19

              https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp

              • Tricledrown

                So what the toll of not getting vaccinated would be at least a thousand times worse with up 30% plus suffering long covid.

                1 death 500 odd with adverse reactions most of those not suffering longterm .

                The toll with no vaccinations 10's of thousands many highly trained doctors and nurses dying or contracting covid because of being burnt out in an already overstretched health system.

                Our generations from WW2 to now haven't faced any major war or disease we have been the lucky generations.

                Soon as we have had the biggest health catastrophe since the Spanish flu 1918_21 a hundred years ago . We have the anti vax brigade the Lord haw haws the Tokyo roses of doom come out and spread misinformation to undermine what NZ has achieved because 1 in 10,000 has had a reaction some serious some not so.

                Rosemary Mcdonald it's OK to speak out but in context.

                Where are the 200 youngsters you claim have had heart damage.

              • Sacha

                Where is the 'severe menstrual bleeding after menopause' in the list? That sounds full-on. Or is it from an equivalent list overseas?

              • KJT

                You appear to be unaware, or ignoring, how adverse effect reporting systems work. They record events which happen after vaccination, not necessarily caused by vaccination. Most aren't caused by vaccination, as your link states. .

                To claim otherwise, is showing either lack of comprehension, or deliberately muddying the waters to try and convince others that an anti vacc stance is valid. If there were a significant number of "vaccine injuries" don't you think that after more than five million vaccinations, they would be showing up in our already overloaded hospitals?

                Or do you think we have some secret hospital on the desert road full of "vaccine injuries"?

                From your own link. "To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of natural deaths".

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Most aren't caused by vaccination, as your link states. .

                  Thy do indeed largely dismiss all adverse events as being mere coincidence.

                  Same as it ever was.

                  • KJT

                    Oh. FFS.

                    If there was an increase in adverse events caused by vaccination. There would be an overall increase in adverse events, with over five million vaccinations. Which would be immediately apparent in our already overloaded hospitals.

                    Obviously there isn't, unless we are hiding them in secret hospitals.

                    By the way as you seem to like "anecdotal evidence". The only two people I've ever met with Guillaum-Barre syndrome, are life long anti-vaccers. Does that prove being unvaccinated causes Guillaume-Barr syndrome?

              • Matiri

                Guillain-Barré Syndrome affects 40-80 New Zealanders each year.

                Also increased rates of GB and other neurological complications have been reported after Covid infections. Vaccination significantly that risk.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.3.2

              oh ffs Frank. You just said my objection to 'there is no harm' wasn't founded in science and then you quoted the science showing the harm.

              Like I said, fundamentalism.

              • KJT

                So few side effects in over 7 million doses, is about as close to harmless as anything gets.

                And that is science. Not “fundamentalism”.

                Rosemary already provided the links.

                https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp

                “t is also important to keep in mind that a report can be submitted for any cause and is not necessarily associated with the vaccine”.

                • weka

                  fuck off. I've given a clear explanation of what I'm talking about in this thread, and I'm done with people who refuse to understand what I am talking about and then misrepresent my views.

                  All medicines have side effects. When the binary thinkers say 'no harm' they actively suppress the discussion of things that affect disabled people. When I start naming the issues for disabled people, people like you dismiss and deny the discussion.

                  Stop throwing disabled people under the bus.

                    • weka

                      go read what I've said in my comments under this post about disability.

                    • weka

                      wtf what? You think the vaccine is harmless, people who are having flares and relapses are ignored, ignoring them or actively suppressing debate about this is ableist. It's not new, it's just new having it quite so prominent among left wing people who are otherwise considerate.

                    • weka

                      I mean, I expect it from Sanctuary, but not from you and some others.

                    • weka

                      and because I'm sick of the talking points style debate on this, let me spell out what I think is happening.

                      People who have high faith in vaccines and medical science generally, and who see it as the one true way or at least the one best way, are struggling with the nuances around the vaccine. Some of that is ideological/philosophical (which is fine except where people can't be honest about that), and some is probably born from fear that if we are honest it might lower the vax rate instead of trusting people that if we are honest with them, they will do the right thing.

                      It's made worse of course by the fact that we are really shit at allowing disabled people to participate fully in society. So while I'm ok with the fact that the vaccine will harm some people and believe it is still one of our best tools regardless, I also know that I'd be less grumpy about it all if I saw lefties going, oh of course, people who get harmed should be fully supported by the state and not have to deal with all that WINZ/ACC bollocks. They've pulled their weight after all.

                      But no, let's deny there is even a problem, and let's not make the connections between neoliberalism and ableism and poverty, because covid stands alone as the most important thing.

                    • KJT

                      I don't "think the vaccine is harmless".

                      The evidence shows it is as "harmless" as anything gets. Which doesn't mean the same as absolutely "zero harm".

                      (Vaccine side effects can be claimed for under ACC, BTW). And we have already agreed the current ACC, and sickness, disabled welfare system needs a huge shakeup.

                      Not my "opinion". Evidence!

                      Even Rosemary couldn't come up with evidence of more than a few hundred, "reported adverse effects" where she failed to mention that most would have occurred without vaccination, as well as being orders of magnitude less than covid "side effects" on the unvaccinated, after millions of doses

                      Abled people getting vaccinated is one of the best things we can do for those living with disabilities at the moment, as they tend to be the ones most affected by covid.

                      People showing things such as reported incidents after vaccination, such as CARM or other adverse effects reporting systems, without context, dog whistling that they are "all due to the vaccination" is actually dishonest, if intentional?

                      When they breathlessly claim that there are "lots of vaccine injuries" being ignored, and other claims such as "it is not a vaccine".
                      How do they explain the lack of "vaccine injuries" apparent in our overloaded hospitals if it was true?

                      The equivalent of shouting "fire" in a crowded room.

                      So. WTF.

                      P.S. I’ve been advocating for better treatment of disabled, the unemployed and under paid for most of my life. We have worked together on both, here!
                      FFS.
                      . Hardly someone who has ignored them.
                      Teachers, Doctors, caregivers and others in their life giving the disabled covid, because they refuse to be vaccinated or take other precautions, is hardly, looking after the disabled.

          • barry 1.1.1.1.4

            Yes, it would be nice to see such clear simple messaging here.

            If everyone were vaccinated the virus would disappear.

            With 90% vaccinated previous versions of covid would disappear, but delta is too infectious, and the vaccine is slightly less effective.

            With 90% vaccinated and everyone wearing masks in indoor public settings maybe the virus would disappear. So the vaccine is not enough. That is why the traffic light system is necessary

            The traffic light system is unnecessarily complicated.

            • Sacha 1.1.1.1.4.1

              The traffic light system is unnecessarily complicated.

              Your suggestion for an alternative with less than three categories is.. ?

            • KJT 1.1.1.1.4.2

              Something that can be explained on one A4 page, is "unnecessarily complicated"?

              No wonder why the press briefings had to be like "talking to five year olds".

              As my year ten students, in the past, would have had no problem with it.

              • weka

                Calling the NZ public who don't understand stupid, that will really work.

                • KJT

                  This is "wilful stupidity" from people who don't want to understand it.

                  Like we have seen so often from the press gallery.

                  • weka

                    I'm not stupid and I'm not willfully stupid and I don't understand it.

                    I tried reading this earlier, what a mess.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-the-traffic-light-system-explained/5237ICI2JEI5EAYQUAZUZZTDGI/

                    • KJT

                      I wouldn't bother trying to get any sense out of the Herald.

                      Who are amoung those who are more interested in bagging the Government than giving clarity.

                    • Craig Hall

                      Most people will be vaccinated or exempt (by age), so for them, everything will be (more or less) normal at Green and Orange (very few differences between the two), with some restrictions at Red, and however confusing the whole system looks on paper, daily life will generally not have those confusions. For various sectors, they will have to learn the differences for each level, but only for their particular sector, not the whole thing. I am involved in weddings and funerals from time to time, and that's complicated currently – the traffic light system doesn't look like it will be more complicated although the industries are still waiting for the legislation/orders (or whatever legal framework is used) to work out the specifics.

                    • weka

                      what about travel between regions? Periodic local lockdowns?

                      There's a tendency to treat vaxxed and unvaxxed people as two separate populations, but there will be families with both, so it's not quite that straight forward.

      • francesca 1.1.2

        Totally agree.

        • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1

          This is a confronting site but in the US, where much of the ant covid arguments have a religious basis this is indeed the case.

          https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

          and this

          https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

          There are religious memes that have influenced people not to have the vaccines aplenty.

          While in NZ we have fewer of these evangelical movements, as we politely call them, the rise of Brian Tamaki and his Destiny church in the anti vaccine movement would seem to be following a similar track. After seeing the devastation wreaked on their church by Covid the Samoan AOG churches are now in support of vaccines and also the teachers at Gloriavale seem to have been given the OK to be vaccinated.

          • weka 1.1.2.1.1

            The death rate of unvaccinated people is the biggest motivator that I can see for hesitant people. I'm less convinced it will work with anti-vaxxers, they won't read that site and they don't trust MSM reporting. This is a problem far beyond covid, and we should be paying attention, learning what is going on.

            None of my non-vax friends are Christians. I think Tamaki etc are a big problem, but that was true before the pandemic. There’s a big culture of already anti-vax people sit outside that and have their own beliefs.

            • Gypsy 1.1.2.1.1.1

              "None of my non-vax friends are Christians."

              I have a few that are, but that's because I am a Christian and mix in those circles. But far more of my anti-vaxx connections are left leaning.

              And thank you for being a voice of reason in this entire wilderness of critical thinking.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1.2

              This sounds harsh and it is……the vaccine hesitant are the ones we should be concentrating on as they have shown they still have an open mind. The out & out anti vaxxers ie those from the David Farrier's Loopy article not so much.

              https://www.webworm.co/p/loopy

              There is a difference between the two groups and they deserve different messages or, no messages in case of the hardliners.

              An older mother I was talking to today said that the fact that the ferries and airlines require vaccinations or testings has meant that they have put off for now the conversation they were having with a SI based son.& daughter in law. A family consensus was that unvaccinated family members should not come to the two week extended Christmas and New Year family celebrations.

              Difficult times.

              • weka

                doesn't sound harsh. We totally should be focusing on hesitant people and helping them. The whole ostracisation and ridicule thing is hugely counter productive.

            • theotherpat 1.1.2.1.1.3

              it is unfortunate….you are not spouting the proscribed line or data…as you know there is only duty and vaccination ….you will likely be shot at dawn….if anyone is outside the " mainstream" medical "facts" then they are hunted down as a heretic……

    • Shanreagh 1.2

      As has been quoted several times on here from Jeff Tiedrich

      'holy XXXX shit, vaccine mandates are causing teachers who don't believe in science to quit, nurses who don't believe in medicine to quit, and cops who don't believe in public safety to quit. I'm failing to see the downside to this.'

      While we are rebuilding can we teach children about

      ethics

      rights – yours & mine & society's

      how govts work

      statistics

      There are many other beliefs, other than 'Jesus is my vaccine' that have caught teachers and others in their grip. Some believe in the existence of evil players such as Gates, things being inserted in them eg magnet, trackers, some are concerned about the fetal cell (HEK 293 argument etc etc.

      On this last issue the argument is specific seemingly to the anti Covid vaccine as many medicines in daily use have used these cells. It is ironic as 'the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines produced by Pfizer and Moderna do not require the use of any fetal cell cultures in order to manufacture (produce) the vaccine.'

      Common over the counter drugs tested on HEK-293 cells or derivative cell lines.

      1. Tylenol / Acetaminophen

      2. Advil / Motrin / Ibuprofen

      3. Aspirin / Acetylsalicylic Acid (ASA)

      4. Aleve / Naproxen

      5. Pseudoephedrine / Sudafed / / SudoGest, Suphedrine

      6. Diphenhydramine / Benadryl

      7. Loratadine / Claritin

      8. Dextromethorphan / Delsym / Robafen Cough / Robitussin

      9. Guaifenesin / Mucinex

      10. Tums / Calcium Carbonate

      11. Maalox / Aluminum Hydroxide and Magnesium Hydroxide

      12. Docusate / Colace / Ex-Lax Stool Softener

      13. Senna Glycoside / Sennoside / Senna / Ex-Lax / Senokot

      14. Pepto-Bismol / Bismuth Subsalicylate

      15. Phenylephrine / Preparation H / Vazculep / Suphedrine PE

      16. Mepyramine / Pyrilamine

      17. Lidocaine / Lidoderm / Recticare

      Common prescription drugs tested on HEK-293 cells or derivative cell lines.

      1. Levothyroxine / Synthroid / Tirosint / Levoxyl

      2. Atorvastatin / Lipitor

      3. Amlodipine / Norvasc

      4. Metoprolol / Toprol XL / Lopressor

      5. Omeprazole / Prilosec OTC / Zegerid OTC / OmePPi

      6. Losartan / Cozaar

      7. Albuterol / Salbutamol / ProAir / Ventolin

      8. Enbrel / Etanercept

      9. Azithromycin / Zithromax

      10. Hydroxychloroquine / Plaquenil

      11. Remdesivir / Veklury

      12. Dapagliflozin / Farxiga / Ipragliflozin / Suglat / Enavogliflozin / Jardiance

      13. Ivermectin / Stromectol

      14. Metformin / Glucophage / Riomet / Glumetza

      As well Regneron used in treating Covid infections was tested using aborted fetal tissue.

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/regeneron-trump-covid-aborted-fetal-tissue/

      • Tricledrown 1.2.1

        Don't forget Bleach and praying

      • My latest blogpost on "alternative treatments" is apropos: [Deleted]

        Note the funny end bit. Thank the gods for unintentional humour…

        [RL: Take the link-whoring elsewhere.]

        • mpledger 1.2.2.1

          C'mon that's way over the top and offensive. People paste relavent links here all the time, to factual stuff and other poeple's blog posts e.g. Chris Trotter, Daily Blog, DPF, Whaleoil. Just because the pointer is to something self-written doesn't mean it's any less relevant. In some sense it's better to provide a link to a long post then write an encyclopedia in a comment thread.

    • georgecom 1.3

      those who think God will protect them will be in for a surprise. it's not biblical, old testament maybe, new testament is not the age of sign and wonders, of miracles, it's the age of grace. god has already provided protection for people, it's called vaccines

    • Not only that, but they are testing God which any good Christian should know that you are not allowed to do

  2. Castro 2

    You should become a teacher and spew your sanctimony then.

    [lprent: If you want to comment then say something related to the post or another comment in reply. Rather than what appears to be venting your frustration at an inability to successfully masturbate like every other 14 year old.

    Which seems as relevant to your comment as your comment did to the post.

    You are now warned. Read the policy on attacking authors rather than dealing with what they write. ]

  3. Tricledrown 3

    I want unvaccinated children who can't be immunised protected ,if teachers don't want to be vaccinated fine but don't put defenceless children at risk and visa versa children passing it back to unvaccinated teachers who have a much higher chance of transmitting.

    • Ad 3.1

      I can imagine a massive increase in distance learning out of this. That's certainly been the case in tertiary education.

  4. Pete 4

    Scores of Yr7 kids lined up to get MMR vaccinations at intermediate school. Parents done all the paperwork, permissions, beforehand (along with information and invitation from the health people to talk about it.)

    I guess that scene will be changed forever. "But I don't know what is in the vaccine …"

    "What about the kids?" is the expressed concern about teachers leaving. What about the kids all right. In some places they are learning from the models around them that you do not trust or believe those who are in positions of authority, those who are in leadership roles, those with expertise.

    Do not take anything at face value. You don't know what's in the vaccine? You don't know what's behind the face of anyone or anything. Don't trust anyone but yourself. Until you find someone who believes vaccines will magnetise you of course.

  5. weka 5

    20% against the mandates is high. Given the hard core anti-vax rate in NZ is probably more like 5 or 8%.

    • Robert Guyton 5.1

      Mandating is not-unexpectedly creating angst – it's a very challenging issue and one that takes courage to initiate. The Government has taken the bull by the horns and chosen to mandate. No one expects that decision to be universally popular, especially in a society that prides itself on being independent-thinking, having a "number-8 wire" approach to life, and a "she'll be right" attitude.

      Sometimes though, you have to back a big decision for the greater good, despite your personal reservations.

      • weka 5.1.1

        I'd have less of a problem if I saw the people losing their jobs being looked after financially. I mean, we have a Labour government. Instead, in the public it's ridicule, ostracisation, and the government have no plan from what I can tell. Ardern has made it clear she supports the two New Zealands position.

        The 'fuck 'em' bridgade don't seem to have thought through what's going to happen in the high no vax places as the under the table work increases. Think hair dressers in people's homes.

        I'm philosophical about my non-vax friends. They're making their choices, and they will live, die or be disabled by them. But I am concerned about the social divisions being dug here much deeper than is necessary imo.

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1

          I'm philosophical about my non-vax friends. They're making their choices, and they will live, die or be disabled by them.

          And that's not counting all those who did get vaccinated but were compelled to do so. If any of this goes wrong …

          • weka 5.1.1.1.1

            My personal view on my choice to vaccinate is that it's a risk but less of a risk than getting covid. I also assume that at the population level, people will be harmed, and again, this is less harm than if we didn't have high vax rates.

            Same with the mandates. If it's about harm reduction, then it's a useful public good action. If it's about punishing people, this will come back to bite us, maybe hard.

            Mostly I think we are kind of blind, but doing the best we can. Lots of uncertainty.

            • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.1.1.1

              "Same with the mandates. If it's about harm reduction, then it's a useful public good action. If it's about punishing people, this will come back to bite us, maybe hard."

              Weka. What would lead you to thinking punishing people is the motivation for Jacinda's Government to employ mandating???

              Genuinely Puzzled of Riverton

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Weka. What would lead you to thinking punishing people is the motivation for Jacinda's Government to employ mandating???

                Genuinely Puzzled of Riverton…

                The eyes, Robert, look at the eyes.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Can't take my eyes of…the hands….

                  • Anne

                    I'm surprised she hasn't been told to keep her hands to herself. 😉 They are all over the place when she's doing the stand up Covid routine. Its a distraction to what she is saying.

                    As for the eyes R McD. You're seeing things that are not there and have never been there!

                • left for dead

                  You have offered this video for the third or fourth time,try another line,or at lest get your crayon out and do a witches hat and maybe a moustache as a non binary,to be fair.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    But it says so much! It is a classic and will haunt the PM for the rest of her political career.

                    I do hope she truly understands that this, and a couple of other recent performances of hers, have done more to cement anti-vaxx and anti government feeling than anything stumbled across in the so-called rabbit holes.

                    Big fail.

                    • left for dead

                      I think the "Big fail"Is a number here have very little insight for the work that goes on under the water "ducks feet in all,I'm not that enameled by Ardern but the likes of yourself and Weka are banging to many pots at the moment,we have a bit of a clique here,who are burrowing more holes,and it seems just for a moan,so boot me off here again,it might be the saving of me and Ill go off and try an not make people sick.That's not a dig at you Rosemary,I no you have been caring for a loved one for years,good luck with that.

                      Oh just too finish off,I always like your Minister of misery slag off.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Haunting…….I doubt it.

                      Many who watch it don't in fact get the same message you are getting Rosemary.

                      Many who watch it would agree that expressive arms and hands are not what is usual in NZ so we may look askance at them.

                      Other places in the world not so much, thankfully.

                      I was in Italy on a day bus trip from Milan to one of the Swiss lakes. Guide proposed taking us back a different way home to Milan and spoke to the non English speaking driver…….I was sitting at the front and after much gesticulating and expressive arms and hands the conversation between them finished. I asked the guide 'does X (bus driver) not think we can go back the different way?' 'Oh yes that is all ok he was just saying he was a bit worried about the air in one of the inside set of tyres and wanted to make sure we got back on a motorway at some stage before Milan and he could check them at one of the 'aree di servizio/autogrills'. wink

                    • Tricledrown

                      Big fail yeah right you will never please all of the people all of the time.

                      Anti vaxxers make up how much of the population less than 5%.

                      74% of the population support mandates.

                      Some body has to be in charge particularly in these tough times. Looking at Judith Collins tonight saying the govt is all over the place. Collins looked very disheveled and all over the place probably up all night checking her numbers

        • Sanctuary 5.1.1.2

          The problem is many on the hippy left, in the liberal middle class and amongst boomers are united by a strain of anti-authoritarianism informed by 40+ years of incessantly repeated neoliberal propaganda that state is somehow your enemy, an ideological position summed up by Ronald Reagan in 1981 – "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

          Yet as neoliberalism decline it seems it successor is going to be its erstwhile victim, the state. In short, the big state is back, and you had better get used to it. Climate change, pandemics, economic crisis, looming wars etc are going to see much greater intervention by the state in our lives and much greater demands on citizens to conform to imposed rules.

          The political right is way ahead of the left on this – the liberal middle class is increasingly left defending an untenable status quo and its main political vehicles in Europe and the US are in a crisis as they lose huge chunks of voters to authoritarian parties whose platform at least acknowledge the crisis.

          We need to wake up and stop treating the last forty years of individualised narcissism as a hypernormalised reality we can't escape.

          • RedLogix 5.1.1.2.1

            Oddly enough though the other day you seem to care quite a lot about your individual 'right' to comment here.

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.2.2

            I'm with Sanctuary!

            🙂

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.2.3

            We need to wake up and stop treating the last forty years of individualised narcissism as a hypernormalised reality we can't escape.

            Some need to wake up and start realising that nigh on forty years of neo- liberal every- man- for- himself -and- kick -them- when- they're -down policy that Jacinda's mob has actually made worse over the course of their occupation of the Government benches has normalised margin living for so many.

            You need to get out more and speak with the common folk. You clearly have no idea of the depths of mistrust in Government that exists out here.

            And no. It is foolishness to assume this is a left/right binary.

            • theotherpat 5.1.1.2.3.1

              +100……that last quote was a dead give away…..must be all the boomers fault.

            • North 5.1.1.2.3.2

              I accept that I need to get out more and talk seriously with the 74 % or whatever the large percentage it is whom aren't particularly focused on Jacinda's hands; whom don't understand that the pandemic is actually optional.

              I too am with Sanctuary. Could add this group – plain cussed contrarians for whom “Neh !” is the principal principle.

        • Shanreagh 5.1.1.3

          I'd have less of a problem if I saw the people losing their jobs being looked after financially.

          I cannot locate it, running out of time as going but there is an article stating that benefits would be paid, that some cases would not require a stand down period. There are still the weekly limits on income coming into the home. (Diff argument here still worthy of looking at)

          Can someone locate it please……todays Newshub or Stuff.

          I feel that the anti vaxxers affected by the mandate are entitled to the same approach as others who may have involuntarily lost their jobs. Their claim to any sort of enhanced benefit is weak. Are they different to those leaving employment through restructuring or redundancy?

          The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed when managing their income after losing a job. Examples would have been going to shows, concerts, dining out, sports games etc etc. Supermarket shopping saw fewer treats etc.

          • Anne 5.1.1.3.1

            The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed….

            My bold.

            Indeed they were. I was made redundant in the 1990s – at a time when the neoliberal inspired meme of the day was: anyone over the age of 45 was over the hill and unemployable. It lasted a long time and many competent and experienced people in the Public Service anyway, were lost forever. Some of us were reduced to scraping by on a benefit which had been almost halved by Ruth Richardson earlier that decade. It was a truly horrible time for many Nzers.

          • weka 5.1.1.3.2

            thanks, that's the first reference I've seen to whether WINZ are using stand downs or not.

            That we treat people leaving jobs differently, and sometimes really shittily, isn't a reason to continue doing that. Government restructures leading to people leaving the jobs is similar and we know that NZ has an appalling history on this. I don't believe it's left wing position to argue that people shouldn't be looked after when they lose their job. But in this instance, there are people who believe that the people losing work over the mandate have themselves to blame. It's straight out of the RW hand book and it's terrible that we are so willing to throw aside princples.

            • Craig Hall 5.1.1.3.2.1

              Based on the current wording in the Social Security Act, I don't think MSD could refuse a benefit to someone who was dismissed for not being vaccinated as it is not misconduct (essentially a person is incompatible with the job), so it makes sense to hold the same position for someone resigning although that's more open to interpretation in the Act.

          • weka 5.1.1.3.3

            The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed when managing their income after losing a job. Examples would have been going to shows, concerts, dining out, sports games etc etc. Supermarket shopping saw fewer treats etc.

            Actually it did. The 80s was when the 'bludger' meme was elevated to national status. Much of that was intentional and readily accepted by the Protestant work ethic people who are judgemental and believe on bootstraps.

            Not too dissimilar. Compassion was fine until people got scared. But the great teachings on compassion don't dole it out like that. Compassion exists even for the people we judge most harshly. We base society on this, which is why prisoners have rights for instance. The philosophical shifts happening now are a concern that people are barely even registering, but this is the authoritarian left on display. Can't be bothered with carrots, let's bring in the sticks.

            • Shanreagh 5.1.1.3.3.1

              I disagree with the bludger connotation in relation to the ones who were laid off during the neo lib era. Many of us were laid off and could not access any form of benefit as we

              had savings

              were single

              etc etc

              We were 'welcome to check the jobs board'.

              So we saw colleagues able to carry on their lives while many of us lived a restricted life until we could get another job. The 'bludger' idiom was not thrown at all of those who had to access benefits but the ones, even then, who were making it more of a lifestyle choice to be on a benefit.

              • weka

                when a government runs an economy with a permanent unemployment rate, there is in fact nothing wrong with people living on a benefit as a lifestyle choice.

                Not sure why you are choosing to reinforce bludger memes.

                • Shanreagh

                  Just being factual with my experience. I don't ever use the word bludger, never have and never will.

                  Work fulfills so many more social/societal functions than just the wage. I think that not working when one could sets a bad example for children etc – sets up expectations and entitlements. Society misses out on the brain power of a variety of people.

                  • weka

                    Bludger became a pejorative aimed at people who were on the dole. I'm glad for you that you didn't get that, but many people did, even those who had no choice in being unemployed. It was a massive cultural shift, and much of that was intentional.

                    I think Ardern is bordering on doing the same over vaccination, and imo that shift is unnecessary, cruel, and bad for the country. I hope I am wrong that this is what is happening, but I think it's going to get worse.

        • Cricklewood 5.1.1.4

          Whats worse for me is that mandates are very clearly going to impact children especially in the 12-15 age group. Their educational and social opportunities will be much diminished and they are not going to vaccinate against a parent or guardians wishes.

          There have been lots of places announce 12 and over must be double vaxxed include Sports, The Arts (dance, theater) Museums, Clubs and others. I think thats a mistake, if we have to pick an age it should be 18.

  6. Robert Guyton 6

    Darkest day in NZ education?

    Have we forgotten Merv Wellington?

  7. Kiwicatlover 7

    As I posted previously, recent UK random sampling had 1.2% unvaccinated and 0.4% vaccinated test positive. If you discount the vaccinated rate by 3 to represent the reduced transmissibility, you get 1.2% vs 0.14% equivalent risk. Not a trivial difference, but I’m not convinced that is where the line should be drawn between business as usual and ending someone’s career.

    • Ad 7.1

      How is a UK random sampling relevant to New Zealand conditions for vaccination mandates?

      Also if you are going to throw a random statistic about, show your source link so that it can be examined.

        • Kiwicatlover 7.1.1.1

          That's the one. I was pressed for time and haven't mastered the linking format quite yet. As to the relevance, Covid prevalence in the midst of an outbreak in the UK, with similar figures in Aus, seem a useful proxy for planning in NZ, as we don't yet have good figures for an outbreak. If anything they should be a conservative worst case if our vaccination rate pulls ahead.

          So the question is, at what risk of exposure to infected people is it appropriate to impose severe impositions on civil rights. Vaccination status is an easy distinction, but does the evidence justify it being the dividing line? That is in question given that the vaccinated can still catch and spread, albeit at lower rates. I've yet to see a compelling evidence based argument.

    • weka 7.2

      there's an onus on commenters to link when making claims, even if you've already posted it (in this case it was last month and no-one will remember that).

  8. Anne 8

    In the next two weeks we will find out how many teachers in New Zealand are immune to facts, were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves, and after decades enforcing state rules in daily attendance and behaviours of young people at school could not themselves be subject to that same force of state.

    Aided and abetted by false prophets out of America.

    Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do.

    And that's the crux of the argument.

    Both quotes worthy of repeating because they are so critical to the story.

    Congrats on your post Ad.

  9. Maurice 9

    The Death of Expertise springs to mind

    Who can we trust when we are told that we shall not even trust ourselves?

    "Technology and increasing levels of education have exposed people to more information than ever before. These societal gains, however, have also helped fuel a surge in narcissistic and misguided intellectual egalitarianism that has crippled informed debates on any number of issues."

    "Tom Nichols' The Death of Expertise shows how this rejection of experts has occurred: the openness of the internet, the emergence of a customer satisfaction model in higher education, and the transformation of the news industry into a 24-hour entertainment machine, among other reasons."

  10. Ross 10

    were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves,

    I’m not sure that teachers would be demanding what has to be put into kids’ bodies. That would be unethical.

    As for vaccine mandates, I suspect they will do for the Government what the Boston Strangler did for door to door salesmen.

    • observer 10.1

      Support for mandates is consistent, across all measures, at 3 out of 4. Not only the poll cited in the OP, but previous surveys (e.g. Talbot Mills in the NZ Herald).

      If vaccine mandates were the only issue for the Government they would be at record highs. Other issues can sap their support, but not this one.

  11. Ad 11

    Imagine a 2022 history class in which this COVID pandemic is taught. It will need to acknowledge what we all now owe to the researching pharmaceutical industry.

    People forget that when the mRNA vaccines were first discussed, Dr. Anthony Fauci hoped that at best they would be 60% effective. In reality, these vaccines have proven to be 95% effective.

    Pfizer's vaccine didn't have public funding put into it. Moderna did through the US-Federal programme "Operation Warp Speed". AstraZenica's one was 97% taxpayer funded. As a country with negligible R&D other than into milk products, we relied on globalisation working for us.

    The pharmaceutical industry was better placed to respond to the speed of the need than the public sector, and the mix of public and private funding wasn't particularly material.

    Dozens of biopharmaceutical companies immediately refocused R&D efforts to finding vaccines and therapeutics that could be used to fight the virus. A lot of these efforts have failed – which it is properly the risk of private enterprise to do. It's far too big a risk for the state to take on with taxpayer funds here.

    Fortunately for us and tens of millions who remain alive today, enough have succeeded to prevent hospitalisations and deaths.

    We all should be thankful for this. And indeed for the industry who rolled it out worldwide.

    Quite a classroom lesson on the relationship of big corporates to the state within crisis.

    • Gypsy 11.1

      Well said. It's interesting that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine (which is not a mRNA vaccine) has an efficacy of 63%, substantially below the Pfizer result.

    • Patricia Bremner 11.2

      Ad, agreed Big Pharma has done well with this, but there is mistrust because of the pricing of medicines and treatments. We still have large populations with few vaccines. This may come back to bite us with a new resistant variant.

      • Ad 11.2.1

        Agree, and to anticipate the next point: vaccines must not be the only focus if we are to continue slowing COVID's progress and accelerating our national capacity to recover from it both in therapeutic and in hospital care.

  12. Gypsy 12

    "Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do."

    The arrogance of that comment is astonishing. The scientific method is not some infallible process. Indeed "…science is built on a mountain of mistakes, many made by the greatest minds." I know teachers who are refusing to be vaccinated. I disagree with them on this one issue, but they are to a person high quality teachers who the profession will sorely miss.

    • Ad 12.1

      Experiments with double-blind proof are precisely how all modern science is conducted.

      That science has at times merged with political leadership to highly destructive effect is well acknowledged throughout the 20th century. But that necessity of teaching scientific method in schools is and must remain the primary source of confidence on knowledge.

      • weka 12.1.1

        double blind RCTs are one tool that science uses, and it doesn't stand alone separate from the other tools, human bias, or the influences of commerce, politics and social pressures.

      • Gypsy 12.1.2

        Confidence in the process, and in knowledge obtained, yes I agree. But mistakes are still made. There is not one single reason why people are anti-vaxx. Assuming teachers who are anti-vaxx are somehow of lower intellect or lesser quality is profound arrogance IMHO.

        • Ad 12.1.2.1

          I am confident that a teacher who acts against all the evidence of vaccinations' safety, cannot properly evaluate between fact and rumour, is unable to act against all the risks to society and to oneself posed by their choice, is acting against the interests of their students so deeply that they are deeply deficient in their thinking and do not deserve to teach in front of a classroom.

          Those who stay within the system and teach are clearly better thinkers.

          Clearly the state has been content to make that judgement as well.

          • Gypsy 12.1.2.1.1

            "Those who stay within the system and teach are clearly better thinkers. "
            You're making that assessment on a single criteria, being one you have personally selected. That's your prerogative, but it isn't necessarily reaosnable public policy.

            " is acting against the interests of their students so deeply "
            No, they are not. They know they will lose their jobs. They are prepared to accept those consequences.

            • Ad 12.1.2.1.1.1

              My judgement will be about the same as any future employer they apply for, unless they are stacking shelves, picking apples or mowing lawns for cashies.

              willingly consigning yourself to an underclass is one small step above selling yourself into slavery. Even JS Mill saw that as radically unfreeze.

              • Gypsy

                It is government decisions that are consigning people to an underclass. It is a deliberate decision to create two classes of people, and it is a disgusting over reach of power that will hurt this country short and long term. 1300 DHB staff stood down this morning. I really hope no-one you care about needs their care.

              • theotherpat

                they are not willing…with the courage of their convictions they are given no choice and yes i know you will say YES THEY HAVE…..its a hobsons choice…a you will do this or life is going to be suck for you….NOT something to be gleeful about

      • RedLogix 12.1.3

        Experiments with double-blind proof are precisely how all modern science is conducted.

        No. They are only part of the picture. And not even the most important part.

        The study designs can be thought of as a pyramid. Case control studies are the first articles published on new topics so they make up the base of the pyramid. As we progress up the pyramid, the studies become more evidence-based and less numerous. Meta-Analyses are at the top of the pyramid because they can only be written after much other research has been done on a topic. There are many fewer of them but they offer very strong evidence.

        This idea that RCT's are the only basis on which medical science can proceed is a mis-direction probably promoted by big pharma and govts who are the only entities who can afford to conduct them.

        • Ad 12.1.3.1

          OK not all.

          • RedLogix 12.1.3.1.1

            There are more than a few medical people deeply unhappy at how the system has moved to stripping away the value and importance of the individual clinician's observation and experience.

            It's the face to face clinical experience with real patients and all the human variation they present, together with decades informed intuition and reported as Case Studies that forms the bedrock of the pyramid.

      • mpledger 12.1.4

        Double blind RCTs are the gold standard for drug trials but many, many health studies are not blinded, nor can they be. In NZ, I would doubt whether 5% of health studies are double blinded.

    • weka 12.2

      yeah, it's not accurate to say that non-vaxxed people are inherently anti-science. We're talking about interpretation of science. Medical ethics is a thing, and we're not very good at it in this debate.

      • Ad 12.2.1

        I'm claiming that anti-vaccination teachers who choose not to be vaccinated do not deserve to teach in front of a classroom.

        Their consequent ethical choices have consequences that they understand.

        • Sanctuary 12.2.1.1

          I guess at the end of the day all this huffing and puffing from the anti-vax/vax hesitant brigade is going to count for nothing more than hot air, because you are going to get vaxxed or disappear from mainstream society.

          Like I said previously, these are government mandates not seen in seventy years and come as a huge shock after two generations of narcissistic individualism and indulgent anti-authoritarianism but that doesn't mean the state doesn't have the powers required, or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions.

          So I guess my only advice to the unvaccinated is nip down to Briscoes now (while they will still let you through the door) and pick up a nice coffee machine and panini maker, because you won't be able to enter a cafe and buy either item very soon.

          • Ad 12.2.1.1.1

            We shall know them by their mullets.

            They will be henceforth The Mullets.

          • Robert Guyton 12.2.1.1.2

            You've got it!

          • Gypsy 12.2.1.1.3

            " these are government mandates not seen in seventy years and come as a huge shock after two generations of narcissistic individualism and indulgent anti-authoritarianism but that doesn't mean the state doesn't have the powers required, or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions."
            Of course the state has the 'power'. The question is whether they should exercise it. Not all objection to state mandate is narcissistic individualism. Ever heard of conchies?

            • Shanreagh 12.2.1.1.3.1

              Yes about conscientious objectors… I think you may be drawing a long bow to put anti vaxx people in the same class as conscientious objectors.

              Those who fought and those who were objectors were mainly cut from the same homogenous cloth. Those who fought and their families could see that the objections were within their ken or frameworks even if they personally did not have the same strong beliefs.

              Some of the reasons for not having the vaccination are borne out of misinformation and disinformation. Allergies can be understood and accounted for even though it was reported that medical people thought that on a population basis, around 100 people would be allergic to any of the ingredients in the vaccine.

              The use of aborted fetal tissue in the vaccines has been discounted. While it may have been used in some testing it does not form part of the vaccine itself.

              That leaves the disinformation etc aspects, the anti science aspects eg magnets, tracking device, parts of a big worldwide plot, scares about RNA/DNA etc etc. It would be very difficult to run a persuasive 'conscientious objector' argument based on these conspiracy theories.

              I received this report from Horizon research today about vaccine uptake

              https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/627/information?gtid=61868BB0-F738-4FB5-953B-52D8516AA628

              From the summary:

              • Those who say they definitely won’t get vaccinated are eight times more likely than the general population to believe that the vaccine can affect your reproductive organs, affect your DNA or RNA, and that it has religious or spiritual implications.

              To me, apart from Maori vaccinations, we are getting those who will never be vaccinated.

              Moving on to the traffic light frameworks, an emphasis on the vaccine passports, work on MIQ, mopping up those who are yet to have their second vaccination are future focussing efforts. And an all out effort to up the rate of vaccinations in Maori.

              • Gypsy

                " I think you may be drawing a long bow to put anti vaxx people in the same class as conscientious objectors. "
                The bow I was drawing was with reference to Sanctuary's comment about state powers. What the state CAN do is not always what the state SHOULD do. My personal view is the gleeful way in which the government is treating the unvaxxed is going to hurt our country badly.

                • Shanreagh

                  I am still puzzled as to your reference to conscientious objectors in this context. Are we now trying to make a link between acts of the state while on a wartime footing, and the choices that people have on whether or not to be vaccinated?

                  I have not noticed any 'gleefulness' on the part of Govt……all I have noticed is all parts of govt trying their hardest to point out the vax message, the possible consequences of not being vaccinated to health while endeavouring to open up as safely as we can.

                  I find it intriguing, and this is not the first time I have noticed it, where personal malice is assigned to an action of government and this is of course nonsense. A Govt, not being a person, is not able to have the thoughts and feelings of a person.

                  What is the purpose of doing this instead of focussing on what the act/rule. regulation will mean to individuals? This is the more usual way of looking at it as correctly places the reaction to something with those reacting.

                  So why are you thinking this rather than saying it is the reaction of the people affected?

                  • Gypsy

                    "I am still puzzled as to your reference to conscientious objectors in this context. Are we now trying to make a link between acts of the state while on a wartime footing, and the choices that people have on whether or not to be vaccinated?"

                    Again i refer back to Sanctuary's comment. In particular "or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions." Now the state had the 'right' to compel people to conscript. I may even argue that was desirable in the context of fighting a common enemy. However the way conchies were treated by society was disgraceful, and yes our government is deliberately creating a second class of citizens, sans certain rights some seem gleeful to take away.

                    "I have not noticed any 'gleefulness' on the part of Govt…"

                    Oh yes. It's palbable. And it's even sicker given the government on more than one occasion promised there would be no penalty for refusing to be vaccinated, and given they are doing this to cover up their own failures.

          • Ross 12.2.1.1.4

            pick up a nice coffee machine and panini maker, because you won't be able to enter a cafe and buy either item very soon.

            I didn’t realise that the meaning of life is found in a panini and coffee LOL

        • Shanreagh 12.2.1.2

          Harsh but true and that is why I like the quote from Jeff Tiedrich about there not being a downside to the loss of teachers, nurses and Police (in the US not here yet) given that science, medicine and public safety are fundamental to their jobs.

          I also believe that the mandate will in fact end up with fewer people leaving their work places than current shock, horror would have us believe. I would think also that the impact on society, on the state sector, other employees etc will be less than the impact on society from the neo lib reforms and restructurings in the late 1980s/1990s etc. Not minimising here.

          Two anecdotal stories from Wellington. A primary school BoT member advised following a meeting today that they had to stand down 2 employees/contractors, an on-call plumber and a teacher's aide. No nurses in the group that my flatmate works/associates with have missed getting their vaccinations.

          Did I read or hear also that some workplaces are allowing employees LWOP or half time leave if they want to wait for the Novavax vaccine to go through Medsafe etc but only for those who are vaccine hesitant because of the mRNA vaccines.

    • Robert Guyton 12.3

      Teachers aren't (in the main) scientists, nor are they trained researchers. Give them/us a break 🙂

      • Shanreagh 12.3.1

        No they are not scientists but we do not expect them to be influenced by unscientific research and disinformation such as above – evil players, magnets, trackers, etc etc. We expect them to have the education and nous to be able to move beyond the memes etc on social media.

        • Pete 12.3.1.1

          It is important that teachers are representative of the community. They should just be 'normal' people, like everyone else. In the community there are people who have weird views about all sorts of things, including science and vaccinations. Shouldn't we expect from teachers then the foibles of 'ordinary' people?

          Well, no. I would have thought it was important for teachers to not be dumb, for them to be rational and sensible and open minded.

          Parents have expectations that teachers have the brain to know how to spell, or to check words and be aware of things around that. They expect teachers to be able to count and be able do basic maths. And of course to be literate.

          Parents have a right to expect standards around things like those. Should they get upset if their child's teacher is delusional and idiotically believes some of the nonsense around covid and the attendant issues? Aren't teachers allowed to be delusional and idiotic as long as they keep it boxed up during school hours?

          One account I read was of a teacher at one of the protests who knew all the stuff about the importance of vaccinations but is against compulsion. The kids in her class must have it sweet.

          • Shanreagh 12.3.1.1.1

            I think some people have a flexible meaning to the word 'compulsion', and of course they would as it suits their purpose. For me, any request where an act is optional is not compulsion. It matters not if the other option is not one that suits you particularly, being asked and refusing is not compulsion.

            I am not sure that it even fits the definition of 'Hobsons choice', particularly with the non mRNA vaccines coming out.

      • KJT 12.3.2

        Learning how to assess, interpreted and communicate science, was a big part of my teacher training.
        Which is pretty standard in NZ.

  13. aj 13

    There must be a number of 'anti-vaxxers' who are stuck in that position through pride and a reluctance to 'back down'

    Having dug themselves a big hole through their early bold, loud and strong statements to friends, colleagues, etc., that they were unsure about vaccination. Once they declared they would refuse to get the vaccine if it was mandated, this becomes a real block to relenting from that position.

    The psychology behind taking a position then trying to back away from it interesting, and difficult for many people to do. It becomes hard to admit taking a wrong choice for fear of being seen as weak and unprincipled, and harder the longer they do it.

    The old saying – 'cut off your nose to spite your face' – an expression to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem – springs to mind.

  14. georgecom 14

    slight change of subject – more than 20 minutes through the press conference announcing shift to covid traffic light system, 3 questions from Barry Soper and none of them about people using toilets under the traffic lights. saints be praised. no inane questions about how the PM 'feels about such and such either.

    • Ad 14.1

      RED LIGHT:

      Working from home encouraged. Hospo, retail, gatherings allowed for vaccinated – with limits.

      Venues not using vaccine certificates it's contactless pickup only. Limits of 10 people, no bars or gyms or hairdressers.

      ORANGE LIGHT:

      Vaccinated have near normal life, with masks and some capacity limits.

      Venues not using vaccination certificates it's contactless pickup only.

      GREEN LIGHT:

      Vaccinated near-normal life, everything's open.

      Unvaccinated venues still have some gathering limits like Level 2.

    • Anne 14.2

      I think he may have received a bit of a dressing down after his big fail – was it yesterday or the day before?

  15. Those people complaining about their loss of rights always do it with the narrow focus on their own personal wellbeing, ignoring the people around them who may be immunocompromised, ignoring the importance of herd immunity to prevent wildfire outbreaks, ignoring the increased chance of death or permanent injury from catching Covid.

    It's your basic selfishness along with lack of rationality and spending too much time on stupid social media sites spreading hate and fear, bolstered by confirmation bias and the feeling they get from reading about evil conspiracies. My friend said she "saw the truth about what was going on" when she read this crap on social media "it was like my eyes were opened" because it confirmed her internal paranoid feelings about the world. IMO it was transference of psychological trauma onto current events. It's a shame that otherwise good people are susceptible to such lies.

    Saw this amazing thread about how people fall into the Q-Anon anti-vax rabbit hole (explains John Ansell's brain worms quite well too):

    • RedLogix 15.1

      Yeah there are no conspiracies and everyone in authority is both all-knowing, wise and a saint. /sarc

      Conspiracy theories arise when people realise or suspect they’re being lied to. Into the vacuum rushes speculation. Most of the time this speculation is bunk – sometimes it’s not.

      • roblogic 15.1.1

        Oh of course, especially in the USA the establishment is involved in a ton of murky shit. The evangelical churches and Fox news have corralled the outrage quite effectively by resorting to nationalistic idiocy. But that doesn't translate well to Aotearoa IMO

        • RedLogix 15.1.1.1

          Given that most of the NZ govt's advice is closely aligned with US policy and thinking – the translation may not be as loose as you think.

        • Tricledrown 15.1.1.2

          Mainly Christian fundies and gang members Brian Tamaki has a foot in both camps.

  16. I have a close relative who has been in the teaching profession for over 50 years, still involved in governance and best practices, who agrees with the sentiment that anti vaxxers are bad teachers, and students are better off without them. Because it's about the students right!?! Not a teacher's career prospects.

    They made a choice, they face a consequence. Basic life lesson.

    • RedLogix 16.1

      Whoa … individual consequences for 'bad choices'. Now where did I hear that before?

      • weka 16.1.1

        lol.

        Mind blowing how blind some of the left is to this messaging, and that we can still take care of the collective without being dicks about it.

        • Ad 16.1.1.1

          If I get half a chance I will write something on the rise of the authoritarian left across the executive and across policy rollout and across supporters. Ardern may well be on the slippery slope from Mother Theresa to Ghandi, but her oft-quoted line from last term still holds;

          "I refuse to believe that you cannot be both compassionate and strong."

          Currently showing accelerated evolution into the stronger being-dicks-about-it form.

      • Stuart Munro 16.1.2

        Probably here.

  17. Robert Guyton 17

    Ghandi's on the Dark Side?

    I'm puzzled. He loved looms.

  18. James 2 18

    Who here thinks 30 minutes exercise a day and not smoking is good for individual and public health?

    Who here thinks no social media after 9 pm is good for mental health?

    -100% of hands go up-

    Who here thinks smokers should lose their job, freedom, ability to go to restaurants, etc?

    Who here thinks the police should enforce 30 minutes of exercise per day?

    -less than 100% of hands go up-

    OK, so something simply being good, of a varying degree, doesn't justify state coercion and extreme legal and social exclusion?

    Of course it doesn't. We don't live in a dictatorship, even a benevolent one.

    Instead of solid arguments to justify literally the most exteme limited on human rights in the last 100 years via mandates and passports, it's supporters argue a different claim – vaccines are generally good and anti-vax are dumb.

    Why? Because that's easier and feeds a self-righteous moralism. But it's terrible reasoning, and wrong.

    The protection from mRNA vaccines falls rapidly, within several months. It has limited and falling protection against infection. 90% vaxxed Ireland has increased cases. Europe-wide, this is happening in highly vaxxed countries.

    Im double vaxxed but I aren't interested in forever signing over my body for 6 monthly rolling Soviet passports, particularly where we are already highly vaxxed and 90% is an extreme figure plucked from ego to be "world leading".

    Instead, mandate vax for ICU doctors/nurses and those working in Old folks home. The rest is illogic, extereme over-reach, fear, and unthinking. Its not science or rationality, its emotional moralism, fear, and submission.

    That's why the Court of Appeals in US has suspended vaccine mandate in the US. Not because vax is so bad, its just limited and mandates are huge baseball bat to crack a peanut and ultimately come at a ridiculous cost.

    • Stuart Munro 18.1

      and 90% is an extreme figure plucked from ego to be "world leading"

      Nope, it's an approximation that is predicted to reduce transmission to manageable levels. The actual number for that is likely to be between 90 and 100% – polio vax hit 93% before the US epidemic was halted, and polio vax gave robust immunity.

    • Sacha 18.2

      but I aren't interested in forever signing over my body for 6 monthly rolling Soviet passports

      Fine if you were the only one affected by a decision not to stay vaxxed. Society has a life-and-death interest in your status.

  19. Jacqui McLaren 19

    Teachers should apply facts and instil necessity of scientific method according to the writer. Who says the teachers who do not elect to be vaccinated are not working on facts, and that scientific method is ignored?

    Vaccines are given to at risk groups. That is how it has always been. That is how it was until 2020. One of the most obvious examples is the flu vax (flu kills aboout 500 Kiwis every year according to Otago Uni). That jab has never been made mandatory for not at risk groups and is free for a defined group of at risk people and certain workers. Those deaths are 'acceptable' and do not call for mass campaigns, vax centers, drive throughs and mandates

    The covid vax is approved for emergency use because the accepted research standards for medication have not been fully met. MoH website clearly states this. This means the vax is still experimental. All those who have been vaxxed must know this and are fine with it, as getting vaxxed (or taking any medication) means you have given your informed consent. It is also acceptable to decline medication if the full information is not available or questions cannot be answered.

    Science is also showing that for those who had the vax 6 – 8 months ago their vax protection declines or is no more effective. Facts and science would demand that all teachers vaxxed more than 6 months ago should be on leave imnediately until they get a booster. Haven't heard that is happening.

    • Sacha 19.1

      Wow, you really have been doing your own research.

    • weka 19.2

      Science is also showing that for those who had the vax 6 – 8 months ago their vax protection declines or is no more effective.

      Don't think so. Declines but doesn't become not effective at all.

      The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday that U.S. health agencies considered when deciding on the need for booster shots.

      The analysis showed that the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing hospitalization and death remained high at 90% for at least six months, even against the highly contagious Delta variant of the coronavirus.

      https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

      Pretty sure the government announced third dose the other day for selected groups.

    • NiandraGem 19.3

      Your fake ponderous, academic tone, and references to the scientific method, don’t change the fact that you are deliberately spreading antivax misinformation during a global pandemic that has killed millions of people.

  20. Maurice 20

    The largest identifiable group unvaxxed are children under 12 and the spread is being foisted upon us before they have time to be vaccinated.

    Min Of H Case demographics record in Cases by Age Group that the 0 to 9 age group (as at 9.00am on 17 Nov) 1068 cases (17% of cases) with 20 hospitalised (6% of all cases)

    The number is larger with the 9 to 12 age group (not reported)

    Consequently they are the group very much at risk of transmission and spreading the disease.

    https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics

    Much more interesting data at the link.

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