It’s Time.

Written By: - Date published: 2:46 pm, January 10th, 2022 - 324 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, capitalism, law and "order", surveillance, tech industry - Tags: , , ,

Y’all just going to sit back while the second to last cohort of people in New Zealand are injected with a drug they do not need and that we do not know the medium and long term side effects of?

On the basis I suspect most people reading this will be answering in the affirmative…

Why?

According to the BBC last May, a child (ie- under 18 years of age) had about a 2 in 1 000 000 chance of a Delta infection resulting in death. That’s less than from seasonal flu. Omicron is much less severe than Delta. The immediate side effects of m-RNA injections are very real, sometimes severe, and sometimes fatal. And the medium and long term effects remain shrouded.

Let’s cut the crap, aye?

The response to Covid is not about Public Health. The response to Covid is about promoting a politics of trauma to facilitate obeisance. If you do not perceive that, then congratulations, you have arrived at the endpoint others envisioned for you.

Those acting from within and through the more or less global horizontal integration of government, Big Tech, Legacy Media and Big Pharma seek a level of profitable power and control over the life of you, and everyone you may love, or anyone you are merely associated with, such that the world has never seen before. Once locked in, we likely never emerge – much in the same we as we never broke the shackles to wage slavery, but normalised it over the space of a few short generations.

Vaccine passports are just the first step in a fairly short journey to social credit hell. If you think the government’s traffic light system, currently scaffolded around physical locations will remain in place or be abandoned altogether, then you’re wrong. China also has a traffic light system. But unlike here, the traffic light that determines your level of access to society sits on cell phones, and changes according to decisions made by government off the back of information they access from a joint digital venture developed by Pfizer and Alipay.

Of course, no digital system of surveillance and control will persist if any generational fish are left out of the basket. That’s why children must be brought into the digital passport realm – by way of a medically pointless and dangerous vaccination. By the time a 7 year old is an adult, the notion of digital surveillance and control is to be as normal to them as wage slavery is to us.

The Digital Identity Services Trust Framework Bill currently making it’s way through Parliament (Public Submissions Closed) essentially seeks to have government operate a vast and potentially ever expanding collection of personal digital information that’s currently held in discrete legacy systems. Presumably, legacy systems are to be rendered obsolete over time.

Whereas today, RealMe merely authenticates the identity of a person interacting with some aspects of the public service sector, tomorrow a Digital Identity will be required for many aspects of life and living that we currently engage in via so-called legacy systems. And while that might offer convenience, it comes with an incredible degree of vulnerability and potential abuse. We are already in a situation where people who have lost their jobs can’t so much as access public toilets because of a single data point on their medical status (eg Dunedin). And we are already at the point where some employers are required to curate information on their employee’s vaccination status and keep government updated.

So if tomorrow we can book a plane ticket or a hotel; rent a car; enter an exam room; make an appointment with whichever “butcher, baker or candle stick maker” we want with the convenient “key” of our phones, then what else might tomorrow bring?

I can’t think through the full gamut of personal information held within a Government run “Trust Framework” that might be rendered “transactional” in some way, shape or form, and then overtly used against us (ie – to deny access to any number of services or locations).

I also wonder what influence the mere construction of such a digital panopticon would have in terms of encouraging self monitoring and self regulation, because you know…. ‘just in case’. Given that conditional freedoms are already contingent on vaccination status, we need to ask what digital information held within the digital framework might be used in the future to render that “key” partly or even wholly inoperable. (Environmental activists as domestic terrorists anyone?)

The Reserve Bank is currently looking at creating a Central Bank Digital Currency that’s intended to replace “legacy money” that would presumably be carried in digital wallets located on our phones. -ANZ is advertising a rudimentary version of theirs, I guess just to get us ‘in the swing of things’.

The negative potential of having multiple, mutually interacting apps curating our personal information sitting on our phones, and all contained within an overarching digital framework… it doesn’t bode well.

But I know, this isn’t China, and a “Social Credit” system here would only ever be used to make good things better, and would never be used by any ‘western’ government to the detriment of individual citizens. Right?

One sure way to guarantee that would be for you to delete any vaccine passport from your phone right now, and convince others to do likewise so that the whole nascent system of surveillance comes crashing down. There is no medical basis for those passes and, besides children being thankful they can do little things like go to the swimming pool again, and small businesses that are currently losing a notable percentage of their foot traffic (possibly accounting for their total profit in some cases) thanking you for taking the cornerstone out of a system of discrimination that many are unhappy to comply with, Dunedin’s Mayor Aaron Hawkins (among others), might be thankful at not having to contend with an endless stream of Dunedin people relieving on their lawn.

324 comments on “It’s Time. ”

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  1. Puckish Rogue 1
    10 January 2022 at 2:52 pm

    This is already a candidate for post of the year.

  2. Siobhan 2
    10 January 2022 at 2:56 pm

    Though, somewhat ironically, some of the most fervent anti mandate/passport/vaccine people I know, are fully connected on their phones to multiple apps , buy most items online whenever possible ..and think UBI is a great idea…go figure…

    • woodart 2.1
      10 January 2022 at 6:47 pm

      yes, use their smartphones to post bullshit about freedom from big brother . what a hoot.

  3. Shanreagh 3
    10 January 2022 at 3:01 pm

    The response to Covid is about promoting a politics of trauma to facilitate abeyance.

    Do you mean 'obeisance' rather than 'abeyance'?

    Whatever it is my answer to this statement is 'yeah right'

    Can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase 'social credit' or Social Credit – presumably you mean the former Social Credit party when you use it in Caps.

    'The New Zealand Social Credit Party (sometimes called "Socred") is a political party which served as the country's third party from the 1950s through into the 1980s. The party held a number of seats in the New Zealand House of Representatives, although never more than two at a time.'

    I did not ever find this party or its attitudes particularly frightening or something to be wary of. More fringe than many aspects but now looking back I thought/think the neo lib concept was more fringe and damaging.

    • Bill 3.1
      10 January 2022 at 3:07 pm

      Do you mean 'obeisance' rather than 'abeyance'?

      Yes I did. Thank you. Corrected.

      Can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase 'social credit' or Social Credit

      It's all explained through the links provided in the OP if you're uncertain as to what social credit means in the context of this post (nothing to do with NZ political parties).

  4. Robert Guyton 4
    10 January 2022 at 3:17 pm

    It's a terrifying, Dystopian future you predict, Bill – chilling, gut-wrenching, sleep-stealing – and damn those pro-vaxxers and their fear-mongering!

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      10 January 2022 at 3:35 pm

      For a moment there I thought you wrote sheep-stealing, and found myself envisioning extraterrestrials beaming up sheeple into spacecraft. Back to normal… 🤣

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    10 January 2022 at 3:31 pm

    The state oughta use this triadic framing: Big Brother, all the little brothers, and the ugly cousins. Rightists will love the family focus. Leftists will split into a multitude of competing interpretational sects trying to specify whether the lack of a father means patriarchy isn't inherent, the lack of sisters has sinister significance, ugly is a suitable politically-correct description of antivaxers, etc

    Traditionalists will give Labour a pat on the back for recycling patronage in this new framing. Altrightists will say see it's a total control system, I warned ya! Pedants will point out that the rebels are corralled safely into the third level of the hierarchy so anarchy is incorporated but kept within bounds. Mainstreamers will say "Whatever. What's on the other channel?"

  6. Blazer 6
    10 January 2022 at 3:32 pm

    I didn't find this very inspiring…(reuters)

    Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data | Reuters

    They also argue that Title 21, subchapter F of the FDA’s own regulations stipulates that the agency “is to make ‘immediately available’ all documents underlying licensure of a vaccine."

  7. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 7
    10 January 2022 at 3:35 pm

    Ah, the anti-mandaters, who refuse to act for the common good and see conspiracies wherever they look!

    From The Daily Blog:

    Anti-mandaters exude “A sense of righteous zeal that makes them feel that they are at war, and so justified in the most extreme actions. They can harass, they can abuse, they can spread half-truths in the name of their holy mission. They believe they are doing this for the rest of us, fighting an injustice that nobody else can see.”

    • Blade 7.1
      10 January 2022 at 3:59 pm

      I found this funny:

      ''Clause 42 establishes the TF board. Clause 42 also identifies clauses in the Bill that provide a practical commitment to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi (te Tiriti o Waitangi) for the governance and operation of the trust framework through the board. These are clauses 20(1)(b), 46(2)(a) and (b), and 50 to 54, which relate to, respectively, consultation by the board before recommending draft TF rules to the Minister, appointment of the members of the board, and the establishment of a Māori Advisory Group to advise the board.''

      I found this not so funny:

      https://www.france24.com/en/video/20211221-covid-19-in-sweden-a-vaccine-passport-on-a-microchip-implant

  8. Sanctuary 8
    10 January 2022 at 3:39 pm

    Bill entreats the sheeple to wake up and see the truth! Jacinda is running a child porn ring out of a pizza restaurant!

    Or something.

    • Shanreagh 8.1
      10 January 2022 at 4:58 pm

      Yes it does have a whiff of RW about it, or being startled at phantoms of one's own making. .

      • In Vino 8.1.1
        10 January 2022 at 7:18 pm

        I remember Bill always being rather contrarian at times, but here he is now backing conspiratorial theories that I have already heard from wayward family members, etc.

        I hope you are feeling full of energy, Bill, because even if you are on the money, you are already fighting a huge tidal stream, and people like me (getting old) tend nowadays to disengage, wait, and see. (Then we drop dead.)

      • Patricia Bremner 8.1.2
        10 January 2022 at 7:29 pm

        devilyes

    • Kiwijoker 8.2
      11 January 2022 at 9:13 am

      But it is Vegan

  9. Sanctuary 9
    10 January 2022 at 3:52 pm

    To be serious dor a second, this post exactly demonstrates the intersectionality between far right Q-Anon nutters and paranoid leftist conspiracy theorists. What unites them? A deep distrust of the state, which in leftists springs from the formative years of Western liberal activism in the era of the 1960s-1970s and in the right in the betrayal of the working class by a neoliberal managerial elite. Ideologically they would claim vast gulfs; psychologically they are one and same. However, for the left the irony is these big brother paranoid types of the left have totally suckled hyper-individualism with their political mothers milk and as such reject the only mechanism that exists for actual collective change – the state – in favour of some inchoate fear and loathing desire for a revolution that will be, of course, to their particular taste.

    And honestly, just pause have a think about what is being proposed here. The idea that the vaccination of children on the advice of public health experts is somehow linked to a vast plot to subjugate us all in some sort of surveillance dystopia is utter looney tunes territory.

    • Bill 9.1
      10 January 2022 at 4:00 pm

      Can you provide any medical rationale for digital vaccines passports being issued?

      • Sanctuary 9.1.1
        10 January 2022 at 4:15 pm

        "…Can you provide any medical rationale for digital vaccines passports being issued..?"

        Effective compliance is about the only way you will get vaccination rates over 80% or so maximum. Or at least, that was what a public health expert with three decades of experience working for the WHO in vaccination programs across the globe told me.

        The current health act was written in 1956, when people were far more comfortable with the idea of a muscular big state and the tools for ensuring compliance were much cruder – which is why it is such a powerful tool for this COVID era. The ting is, the director general of health, or a health officer, has the power to detain anyone they see fit if they suspect non-compliance. What would you rather have – draconian MIQ on remote islands or digital passports?

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1
          10 January 2022 at 4:19 pm

          There's also the entire idea of minimising the probability of infection transmission within a crowd of strangers. If 5% are unvaccinated, they're many times more likely to take the virus home than someone who took the small trouble of actually being vaccinated.

          • weka 9.1.1.1.1
            10 January 2022 at 4:27 pm

            but if you believe that endemic covid is our best option, this doesn't really matter, eh.

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1
              10 January 2022 at 4:29 pm

              resistance is futile, we will be covidated…

            • lprent 9.1.1.1.1.2
              11 January 2022 at 12:52 pm

              There is endemic where all but a small minority of the whole population have a induced degree of resistance. That has been the norm for the latter half of the 20th century, almost entirely due to population vaccination programs and other public health measures taken as a population, and as Bill suggest tramping over the essential rights of infecting thy neighbour.

              Then there are countries with high mortality, high disease consequences, health systems under extreme strain, and where the large numbers of the working population is repeatably unable to work because they have little resistance to the next variant.

              The key way of observing the latter is looking at the excess death rate above previous norms by country and regions (sucks being a citizen in the US, Russia , Brazil where leadership routinely lies to the population), and the shifts in productivity performance over time during periods of epidemics (waiting for the 2021 data at present). But basically, every place that Bill would approve of in this pandemic has made life harder for large numbers of their population as a group.

              That was the lesson that our parents, grandparents and great grandparents learnt. You can only limit the damage of epidemics and pandemics by acting collectively – putting in community sewerage and water systems, whole population vaccination programmes. Each of these community programmes needs to be enforceable by legislation to work for the benefit of all.

              Which is why in NZ we have legislation starting in the 1920s and being updated every few decades to make sure that happens. Not all of us forget history.

              Sure it tramples over the rights of a few misanthropes plus a very large number of micro-organisms who have their freedom to infect others limited. It also carries some extra costs, risks and problems from having streets opened up to put in pipes to rates rises, and small risks of medical misadventure.

              But the tradeoff between benefits and risks for public health measures is almost invariably has a mass result that is massively better for the whole population. Basically the rights of bugs and misanthropes to be biological arseholes isn't something that I care about.

              As for ID, I already require that for driving a car, getting a bank account, paying taxes, getting paid, receiving payments from taxes, going overseas, working overseas, logging on to almost every server I use (including this one), even logging on to phone etc etc

              So far I haven't noticed any of these particularly constraining my freedoms to choose. All of them, like having a vaccine passport, are a matter of my personal choice.

              Sure I don't have to pay taxes – but I can see the benefits of doing so. And it would be a lot of work living in the grey or black economy.

              I don't have to get vaccinated against covid-19, but I think that I can assess my risks far better than Bill seems to be able to do.

              I can see a lot of benefits in being vaccinated even as a anti-social geek. It allows me more flexibility to meet with, work with, or even (on the odd occassion) socialise with other people who are also vaccinated. I'm less likely to infect or kill them, and they are less likely to infect or kill me. It reduces interpersonal risk levels.

              The risks of adverse effects from a mRNA vaccine are inherently far far lower than any other method or production technique for vaccines.

              • Bill …
                12 January 2022 at 2:50 pm

                And the last time a major aspect of "Public Health" was the introduction of a nascent framework that would allow targeted and conditional granting and taking away of freedoms across all of society was?

                Never. It's never happened.

                As for those other IDs you mention – they exist in a framework that is of a totally different order of things. You see that?

                • lprent …
                  12 January 2022 at 5:11 pm

                  As for those other IDs you mention – they exist in a framework that is of a totally different order of things. You see that?

                  Actually no. The only distinguishing factor that I can see is that the others weren't been imposed recently.

                  You should remember that history is almost as interesting to me as programming.

                  You are using (for instance) the exactly same arguments that were used against the imposition of driving licenses in 1925, and the requirements to sit tests before you weer allowed to drive. If you go back into the NatLib newspapers and read the letters to the editor you can see almost exactly the same arguments in the decade leading up to the imposition of drivers licenses in NZ.

                  Same for almost every stage of the imposition of income tax in NZ.

                  And the last time a major aspect of "Public Health" was the introduction of a nascent framework that would allow targeted and conditional granting and taking away of freedoms across all of society was?

                  I can't remember what I was looking for (the role of medical officers in NZ I think), but I recently googled a series of newspaper articles for about 50 years from the 1880s to the 1920s which was about enforcement of medical standards ranging from medical officers to people appointed by local councils across urban areas.

                  Stopping people tossing animal carcasses into convenient holes. Preventing stables being built against houses. Preventing gardeners using blood and bone offcasts from butchers and freezing works on gardens. Plus of course the massive removal of long drops, septic tanks, and enforced upgrades of plumbing within my life time.

                  You do realise that for the last century, that medical officers could and did impose quarantines, whenever they felt they needed to, on houses, brothels, hotels, boarding houses and even districts. Those required that people didn't leave their house. Others required that people didn't do certain types of jobs – for instance having sufferers of TB working in hospitals or in bars.

                  District Health boards and the head of the DoH can still do so as any time.

                  They have also been using the border and police forces over the last century to ensure that people to carry vaccination certification. That was particularly the case for smallpox. But also for things like diphtheria, polio, etc. I wasn't allowed to school when I was a kid without having had certain vaccines. measles and mumps mostly as I remember..

                  We had generations needing to carry vaccination certification across borders, and even in districts when there were outbreaks. But that also applied for other diseases as well.

                  etc etc….

                  There are a lot of people at present who are busy claiming 'rights' or 'removal of freedoms' that in reality have never existed.

                  You probably have no idea just how ridiculous it sounds claiming current exceptionalism on something that I (born 1959), my parents (born 1939), grandparents (born ~1910) , and great grandparents (born ~1885) have seen and discussed here for generations.

                  The struggle to get half-way decent public health in NZ was (like most countries) a long arduous and embedded in the law process.

                  The only thing that has changed in this iteration is some of the detail. Instead of using quarantine islands we use hotels. Those also had restricted limits. The only real difference is that we don't force the excess to stay in the harbour as happened on when there were too many arriving for Stokes Island and other quarantine stations.

                  We now have extended the restrictions that used to be routine for ships to aircraft. etc. But in each case it is a direct extension of existing laws to present day.

          • Bill 9.1.1.1.2
            10 January 2022 at 4:32 pm

            If the m-RNA injections were 100% effective at preventing infection and spread, there would still be no medical rationale for vaccine passports. (Vaccinated people would be protected and so it wouldn't matter if unvaccinated people mingled with them)

            And if they were 50% effective, there would be no medical rationale for vaccine passports. (Vaccinated people would contract and spread the virus whether in the company of unvaccinated people or not)

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.2.1
              10 January 2022 at 4:45 pm

              Sigh. Where to begin?

              Nobody has said vaccines are 100% effective. They just significantly lower the risk of transmission.

              Even at 50% effective, they halve the odds of the vaccinated person getting the disease vs the unvaccinated person.

              And your response has little to do with what I said. Consider 100 people in a club, 1 person is unvaccinated. One other person (vaccinated or not) is in early stages of infectious covid.

              Everyone else in the club is significantly less likely to catch the disease than the unvaccinated person. But it's not just the unvaccinated person's choice to expose themselves to that risk, they're also risking exposing everyone else they encounter after that covid exposure.

              Dunno if it was with you, but I'm damned sure this point has been raised at TS more than once.

              Your covid vaccine status isn't just about you. It's about the danger everyone might needlessly pose to everyone else they encounter, and the steps they can take to minimise that.

              • Bill …
                10 January 2022 at 4:52 pm

                Everyone else in the club is significantly less likely to catch the disease than the unvaccinated person

                No they are not. Depending on when they were vaccinated they can be just as vulnerable and just as infectious as an unvaccinated individual who has no natural immunity from prior exposure to Covid.

                That aside, the post is about 5 – 12 year old kids being injected with m-RNA that poses a higher risk to their health than contracting Covid does, and under the pain of social exclusion.

                Are you comfortable with that?

                edit – I see you answered to that question below.

                • McFlock …
                  10 January 2022 at 4:58 pm

                  No they are not. Depending on when they were vaccinated they can be just as vulnerable and just as infectious as an unvaccinated individual who has no natural immunity from prior exposure to Covid.

                  At what point does the pfizer vaccine have the 0% efficacy you are claiming here?

                  • weka …
                    10 January 2022 at 5:05 pm

                    see if this were Star Trek, we'd be able to measure that by now. Unless it was impossible to measure for plot advancement.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 5:19 pm

                      I do like the fact that McCoy kept telling Kirk that he was a doctor, and therefore well out of his area of expertise if he did the task Kirk was demanding.

                      Whereas in real life Ensign Redshirt would be telling the rest of the crew that McCoy was killing them all and they just needed some "clean and natural air" from the other side of the airlock's outer door.

                  • Bill …
                    10 January 2022 at 5:17 pm

                    50% is the flip of a coin at every encounter.

                    • weka …
                      10 January 2022 at 5:30 pm

                      flippant. McFlock's question was reasonable. If you are saying it's a game of chance, then yes it is, and there are things we can do to put the odds more in our favour. Our being the critical word there.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 5:36 pm

                      Vaccine efficacy is the proportion of protection against some outcome in the vaccinated population compared to the unvaccinated population.

                      If half the population is vaccinated, and the unvaccinated people have 100 cases but the vaccinated population has zero cases, that's 100% efficacy.

                      If the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations had 100 cases each, that's zero% efficacy.

                      If the vaccinated population had 50 cases and the unvaccinated population had 100, that's 50% efficacy. Half the risk of being unvaccinated.

                      You have the unique skill of saying complete bollocks with such certainty that a class 5 bureaucrat could doubt fundamental understandings acquired over a decade or so of professional experience and several more years of training.

                    • Bill …
                      10 January 2022 at 7:27 pm

                      That's not a flippant response at all. At 50% effectiveness, every encounter is a 50/50 chance of infection. McFlock banging about 0% was the flippant bit.

                      Meanwhile, the Pfizer m-RNA injections were developed to provide a measure of immunity to the original variant – not Delta or Omicron. And as far as infection rates appear, they offer no meaningful protection against infection from Omicron.

                      And back to why the government wants 5 – 12 year olds injected with Pfizer m-RNA….?

                    • Tricledrown []
                      10 January 2022 at 8:00 pm

                      What about early treatment with Ivermectin or hydrclorquinine.

                      That has a 100% efficacy for anti vaxxers.

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      10 January 2022 at 8:01 pm

                      "Every encounter is a 50/50 chance of infection"

                      How have you failed to understand McFlock so badly? 50% efficacy would actually mean 50% of the chance of an unvaccinated person of catching the virus. There is nothing in that statistic describing how likely somebody infectious is to pass it on should your paths cross however.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 7:56 pm

                      At 50% effectiveness, every encounter is a 50/50 chance of infection.

                      That is completely incorrect.

                      Vaccine effectiveness is not a reflection of the absolute probability of infection, it is a comparative measure against the infection rate of an unvaccinated population. As I outlined, with relevant link, above. A couple of hours ago.

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      10 January 2022 at 9:07 pm

                      The ridiculous thing is Bill is almost certainly up on all the best arguments for what he is discussing (he usually is). But he also appears unable to correctly apply simple medical statistics. One would hope that the anti-movement has better arguments than this given the size of its following.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 9:30 pm

                      Some of it is almost a case study for another subthread today about expert opinions vs the reckons of people with no background in the field. The logic is not as diabolical as are the initial assumptions to which the logic is applied: GIGO syndrome.

                      If "50% efficacy" really meant "50/50 chance of infection on every encounter", then maybe 60-80% efficacy could reasonably look like "no meanigful protection" after several months, given the number of contacts we have on every supermarket trip.

                      But then of course "22.5% efficacy" would mean that the vaccine increases your risk of getting symptomatic omicron, rather than simply knocking your odds of getting it down by a fifth (if the models pan out, many a slip 'twixt dress and drawers, sort of thing).

                    • Bill …
                      10 January 2022 at 10:00 pm

                      lol dead wrong. my bad.

                      So in a room of 100 fully jabbed people, and where a 'vaccine' is 50% effective, 50 of the 100 are susceptible to picking up infection if the room is contaminated, yes? (Or no.)

                      And in a room full of vaccinated people, the chances that one of them is infected/infectious is pretty high (because vaccine 50% effective)- and it would only require one being infected to negate the exclusion of unvaccinated people who may or may not be infected who, if infected, are likely to be suffering more marked symptoms and that much less likely to be out and about – unlike their vaccinated but infected and feeling pretty much okay compatriot.

                      Pfizer reports – Sera from individuals who received two doses of the current COVID-19 vaccine did exhibit, on average, more than a 25-fold reduction in neutralization titers against the Omicron variant compared to wild-type, indicating that two doses of BNT162b2 may not be sufficient to protect against infection with the Omicron variant.

                      What’s left over from a 25 fold decrease, aside from “not a lot”?

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      10 January 2022 at 10:34 pm

                      Umm, no.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 10:47 pm

                      So in a room of 100 fully jabbed people, and where a 'vaccine' is 50% effective, 50 of the 100 are susceptible to picking up infection if the room is contaminated, yes? (Or no.)

                      No. Still a massive no. Because unless the unvaxxed infection rate from that exposure is 100%, not every unvaxxed person will get it from that room.

                      200 people are in the "room", plus an infected hospo worker. 100 vax, the other 100 unvax.

                      for 50% efficacy:

                      • if 10 unvax people get it (are susceptible), 5 vax people also get it
                      • if 50 unvax people get it, 25 vax people get it
                      • if two unvaxed people get it, one vaxxed person gets it

                      But it doesn't actually work like that, because efficacy is the average over tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the trials, and millions in the followup studies. And then the number of vaxxed and unvaxxed will almost never be exactly the same on a given night.

                      So you'll have bars where nobody gets infected, and others where everyone gets infected, but overall the unvaxxed people (at 50% efficacy) have the negative outcome at twice the rate of the unvaccinated people.

                      Secondly, your next assumption seems to be that a specific degree of X-fold variation in "titers" (or whatever the magic words are) translates directly and linearly to real-world infections. That's a bold move I'm not going to take on face value, especially as at least one of the papers you linked to in the "bronchi are in the upper airway" thread explicitly said that symptoms and severity of infection was much more complex than the lung viral loads they were measuring. That bit is well out of my area of knowledge. It sounds a bit like the South African study in my Time link @9:30pm, but that had a reduction of "about a 41-fold reduction in levels of neutralizing antibodies produced by people who had received two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech SE shot, compared with the strain detected in China almost two years ago", and their modelling suggested that would result in a reduction to 22.5% efficacy.

                      So if Time's 41-fold reduction of magic words was applied to the example of the room, if 5 unvaxxed people get omicron, 4 vaxxed people would get it, on average. If 80 unvaxxed people get it, only 62 people would get it. Not as good as 95%, but still helpful.

                  • Blazer …
                    10 January 2022 at 8:01 pm

                    Just interested- if 90% of the population are vaccinated and 10% are not how 'significant ' are the facts re infection?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 8:34 pm

                      At back of the envelope speculation, given 400k unvaccinated people in clusters (due to both systemic equity and social group self-selection), enough cases to put a region's traffic light into red and screw everyone else.

                      Before omicron, we might have met a level where covid just seamlessly moves into low daily counts and withers on the vine.

                      With omicron, the numbers on efficacy of [current vaccines vs infection rates vs requirements for secondary-up medical care vs sorting out a specific omicron vaccine] just aren't really in yet.

                      Tens (or hundreds) of thousands of people off work for a week but not needing hospital care is less bad than hundreds of people dying each week/day, but it would still fuck NZ sideways.

              • Dennis Frank …
                10 January 2022 at 4:53 pm

                I agree with your view as expressed here. There's a balance between individual rights & govt responsibility that events & participants are trying to tilt each way. Public safety considerations are paramount but the politics will play around design & admin of implementation policy…

              • weka …
                10 January 2022 at 4:56 pm

                Your covid vaccine status isn't just about you. It's about the danger everyone might needlessly pose to everyone else they encounter, and the steps they can take to minimise that.

                I would add to this that it's the balance point between freedoms and restrictions and what we can tolerate as a society as well as what makes sense. Otherwise we'd just make everyone stay home. So the issue is where that line lies, and whether we make it based on libertarian values or social democracy values. Add in something about the economy here too.

              • Blazer …
                10 January 2022 at 7:57 pm

                'They just significantly lower the risk of transmission.'

                Is there hard evidence to support this?

          • Bill 9.1.1.1.3
            10 January 2022 at 4:43 pm

            And rolling out m-RNA injections to all 5 – 12 year olds even though they face more risk from adverse reaction to injection than they do from contracting Covid, under pain of social exclusion (no vaccine passport)…you're fine with that, yes?

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.3.1
              10 January 2022 at 4:48 pm

              I have more confidence in the opinions of expert advisory panels convened by the ministry of health than your frequently unreliable medical reckons, so if that's what they recommend, yeah.

              Also, cf: Your covid vaccine status isn't just about you. It would suck for a kid to catch covid at school and kill grandma at home.

              • Bill …
                10 January 2022 at 5:32 pm

                And x2 pfizer provides what protection in the face of Omicron infection?

                • McFlock …
                  10 January 2022 at 5:39 pm

                  You've already had your basic population health lesson for the day.

                  • Bill …
                    10 January 2022 at 7:31 pm

                    That's utterly irrelevant when the exchange was about the protection offered by Pfizer m-RNA injections that lose their ability to protect at an astonishing rate, and that, regardless, would appear to offer no meaningful protection against infection by Omicron.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 January 2022 at 7:53 pm

                      Omicron wasn't a ‘twinkle’ in SARS-CoV-2's 'eye' when mRNA vaccines were developed in 2020. Pity a booster is required for protection – she's a hard road finding the perfect vaccine during a pandemic.

                      If a new variant pops up with the ability to compromise the health of under-12s, how long to roll out a vaccine to that demographic?

                      Tamariki aged 5 to 11 can be vaccinated from 17 January 2022

                      COVID-19 boosters offer 'potent' protection against omicron, study says, recommending Pfizer and Moderna [7 January 2021]

                      • The best antibody protection came from a two-dose series of one of the mRNA vaccines, either Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna, followed by an mRNA booster.
                      • A COVID-19 booster shot created “substantially higher” antibodies than vaccination followed by omicron infection, according to the Cell study published this week.
                      • Johnson & Johnson vaccine recipients, even with an mRNA booster, didn’t get the “breadth of response” of people with three mRNA doses, the study found.
                    • Julian Richards []
                      10 January 2022 at 11:01 pm

                      "The best antibody protection came from a two-dose series of one of the mRNA vaccines"

                      No the best antibody protection (future infections) comes from natural exposure to the virus. Endemic. Plenty of science available on this fact, find your own links.

                    • Tricledrown []
                      11 January 2022 at 11:18 am

                      Jockavich gets covid a second time.

                      Trump gets double vaccinated plus booster after contracting covid.

                      No proof Julian just a wild claim.

                      Viruses can shut down your immune system like measles which can shut down your immune system memory of previous infections. For 2 years and then the immune system has to relearn its immunity some cases lead to a life with lower immunity.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 12:04 pm

                      @trickledown this fact is widely available from the most respected scientific and medical journals worldwide. Go open these docs yourself.

                    • Tricledrown []
                      11 January 2022 at 1:37 pm

                      Looked up the BMJ it referred to the latest research John Hopkins University along with the CDC.

                      Says getting natural immunity is 2 and 1/2 times less effective than full vaccinations.

                      That Natural immunity from infection varies greatly compared to vaccinations.

                      So where do you get your information.

                      Tennis star reinfected.

                      Trump gets vaccinated plus booster shot.

                      Trump psycophants boo Trump off stage for saying he is fully vaccinated and you should get yours as well.

                      Antivaxxers cherry pick data to create doubt .ie propaganda.

                      How about looking at NZs rates of hospitalisations ICU beds ,by ethnicity Maori are bearing the brunt of this epidemic in NZ.

                      The antivaxxers are targeting Maori so making it very hard to protect the most vulnerable.Then you have Hipango who claims she's vaccinated but illegaly gathering with antivaxxers.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 5:04 pm

                      What's the issue of a vaccinated individual gathering with non-vaxxed individuals?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 January 2022 at 8:08 pm

                      Oops – [7 January 2022] – hope it's not just me doing this!

                    • McFlock …
                      10 January 2022 at 8:16 pm

                      I'm sure you have links to the actual primary research that provides the basis for your claim.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 11:13 am

                      Julian Richards – a genuine question for you – does catching and surviving the flu one year, put you in better stead for the next-year's version?

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 11:21 am

                      @robertguyton If I got 3 x polio vaccines in 12 months and still got polio, would it be worth asking questions?

                      There's a problem.

                    • Tricledrown []
                      11 January 2022 at 11:23 am

                      Not necessarily Julian viruses can mutate faster than each individuals immune system power to keep up which would need to be continually exposed to keep up.

                      Your just throwing unsubstantiated claims out to push your agenda.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 11:57 am

                      What's my agenda? I'm not your angry slogan (#antivax).

                      Whats my unsubstantiated claim? That after 1,2,3,4 shots you'll still most likely contract and transmit covid19? If that's what your pushing towards, yes this is clear and widely acknowledged by the scientific and medical profession. If you’re refusing to acknowledge and just dismiss the efficacy wanes considerably over a short period of time, then yes, you have some very fragile issues to try confront.

                      Again, I'm not #antivax, I took two… To keep my job (my choice apparently). No more. Even though I took two, I sure as hell will not sign up for these revolting domestic passports, they're a national disgrace that do nothing for public health!… If that's an agenda for you to latch onto with your angry slogans… Go ahead.

                      And whilst we're talking g public health, a favourite slogan here for those that can't see the wheels are falling off the propaganda machine… How much did we pay for this two shot public health service? How much did NZ pay for this privilege (each dose)??? Should be widely available information right, this public health injection.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 12:11 pm

                      To answer your question from a general perspective, yes.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 11:28 am

                      Julian – that's not an answer (that I can recognise) to my straight-forward question about flu and the value of catching it, with regards successive versions.

                      Do you reckon catching one "version" protects you from successive versions?

                      Have you considered that a young person, catching a harmful virus, might carry a weakness/vulnerability forward and be more vulnerable/at risk as the second round turns up?

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 11:49 am

                      There's much research available on this subject, widely available from the science and medical journals. Go look.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:00 pm

                      I'm keen to learn your view on that question, Julian. You've shared a lot of views on TS lately – why not that one?

                      Come on.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:09 pm

                      This "look it up yourself", "find your own links" "do your own research" from Julian seems to contradict the rules of the blog, imo.

                      In any case, it's revealing and … feeble.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 12:24 pm

                      Nothing feeble or revealing about it. But you're free to keep pushing the angry slogans.

                      And yes the worldwide scientific and medical concensus is that natural infection provides much greater long-term immunity, but with obvious risks to the individual. Again, go look.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:17 pm

                      I asked: does "catching and surviving the flu one year, put you in better stead for the next-year's version?"

                      Julian Richards says: "To answer your question from a general perspective, yes."

                      Thanks for your response.

                      Could you expand on your view?

                      How/why does it?

                      It seems to me that yearly vaccinations against flu will be different formulations, because the new flu virus is a different one.

                      Wouldn't that be true of immunity created in your body toward one version of a virus and the next version of the virus would be different, requiring a newly-made set of immunological responses?

                      Covid is throwing up new versions at a rate much faster than the flu does (it seems to me).

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 12:28 pm

                      If you're intending to corrupt my simple answer to your question by digressing and pulling every detail of the yes answer apart. Here, Y…. E…. S. Pull apart the word, and not the thought. If its individual thought your trying to destroy… Get your ph to think for you.

                    • weka …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:28 pm

                      Robert, Julian answered here. Comments are weirdly out of time sync (don't know why)

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/time/#comment-1850271

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:34 pm

                      weka – out of sync, yes, but Julian's obfuscating.

                      That's okay, but it weakens his argument, such that it was, to the point where anyone engaging with him will just drift off, feeling they've wrestled with a phantom…

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 1:14 pm

                      The fact you want to argue this more than well recognised fact, by reducing it down to the smallest of smallest details (my answer was yes) reveals your narrative? Who's the snake.

                      McDonald’s healthcare is not the answer to this issue of public health.

                      Tell me Robert how much did the nz government pay for each dose? That’s far more interesting to pull apart than my simple answer consisting of three letters that you wish to pull apart to support your blind position of every man woamn and child getting injected.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 1:32 pm

                      Or maybe start asking yourself why the NZ public is currently banned from accessing rapid antigen tests, a simple preventative healthcare measure is intentionally being withheld by the MoH…? Only currently available to the medical professionals (good enough for them, just not the general public…. For now), and non-jabbed Individuals travelling with AIRNZ etc (protect business).

                      I'm sure this doesn't ring any bells in your mind either.

                      Let me guess, you'll say these tests are not as accurate as PCR, well that's obvious. But they most definitely do and need to have a role in public health as evidenced by their use by medical professionals and businesses like rest homes etc. Again general public can't access these…. not yet, not before the mandates come into full effect (Jan 17th. I guarantee they'll become available as an option after this date once the damage has been done, then the public will be offered this 'choice'.

                      Nothing to see here, look there right?! No coercion etc, just great McDonald's public health response.

                    • weka …
                      11 January 2022 at 12:38 pm

                      fwiw, I think that it's likely that seasonal cold and flu does have a positive impact on immunity in some people. Depends on genetics, health, and whether they have the privilege or access to a good diet, how well they sleep, and a relatively stress free life. Other people are harmed by those viruses.

                      I'm not seeing anything to suggest that covid is worth the risk even for healthy people.

                    • weka …
                      11 January 2022 at 1:40 pm

                      Julian,

                      What's a McDonald's public health response?

                      Or maybe start asking yourself why the NZ public is currently banned from accessing rapid antigen tests, a simple preventative healthcare measure is intentionally being withheld by the MoH…?

                      Why don't you tell us why instead?

                      Let me guess, you'll say these tests are not as accurate as PCR, well that's obvious. But they most definitely do and need to have a role in public health as evidenced by their use by medical professionals and businesses like rest homes etc.

                      Why?

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 5:11 pm

                      Good question… Why?

                      Why do all front line medical professionals have access to rapid antigen tests? Why are they acceptable tests used as a preventative healthcare measure for one group and not all?

                      McDonald's heathcare, that's a pretty clear conceptual metaphor.

                    • weka []
                      11 January 2022 at 5:55 pm

                      Why do all front line medical professionals have access to rapid antigen tests? Why are they acceptable tests used as a preventative healthcare measure for one group and not all?

                      Ok, so you can’t even tell us what your argument is? This is stupid.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 8:55 pm

                      It's not an argument. It's an obvious basic preventative healthcare measure that should be available to all citizens. Not just medical professionals and AIRNZ customers.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 4:54 pm

                      "Who's the snake?"

                      Good question, Julian!

                      Let's see what eventuates.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 4:57 pm

                      Julian Richards: "…well recognised fact.."

                      Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

                      Nice one, Julian!

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 5:13 pm

                      @robertguyton are you still going to argue against this fact?

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 5:29 pm

                      Yes. Put it up again and I will.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2022 at 6:04 pm

                      Weka – Julian is bullshitting us.

                    • weka []
                      11 January 2022 at 6:08 pm

                      He seems to be playing games. I’m just making notes for when it starts to cause problems, so I have a reference.

                      Julian, suggest you read the Policy.

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 8:57 pm

                      No games.

                      Yes will read policy 👍

                    • Julian Richards []
                      11 January 2022 at 8:56 pm

                      How am I bullshiting you (us)? Link away…

                      Weird.

                • Tricledrown …
                  11 January 2022 at 11:09 am

                  Unable to link NSW covid cases vaxed vs unvaxxed.hopefully someone can.

                  But roughly 62% of admissions for covid infections are unvaccinated.

                  18% partially vaccinated

                  1.8% fully vaccinated

            • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.3.2
              10 January 2022 at 5:21 pm

              And rolling out m-RNA injections to all 5 – 12 year olds even though they face more risk from adverse reaction to injection than they do from contracting Covid, under pain of social exclusion (no vaccine passport)…you're fine with that, yes

              You keep saying this but I cannot see any citing of reputable references to say that the risk from the mRNA vaccination for 5-11years is higher than them getting Covid.

              The effects of Long Covid are very much an unknown if Covid does run amuck within our children. I would just hate to think that a child, denied the vaccine, will catch Covid then have any sort of Long Covid. The effects on some children of getting glandular fever can be long term, sometimes associated with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and that is bad enough..

              Do you feel confident that the side-effects of the mRNA vaccine for children (that you have not cited) are greater than a child catching covid (again not cited)

              • Bill …
                10 January 2022 at 7:36 pm

                reputable references to say that the risk from the mRNA vaccination for 5-11years is higher than them getting Covid.

                I deliberately made the effort to only provide legacy media links that most people hereabouts put some store by. The BBC link I provided stated the 2 in 1 million chance for under 18 year olds dying from Covid last May, and contains further links back to research.

                So, unless the chances of medium or severe adverse reactions from injection are somewhat less than 2 in 1 million for under 18 year olds……..

                • miravox …
                  10 January 2022 at 7:55 pm

                  Except, as you note, those figures are for under 18 year-olds. The group to be vaccinated is under 12.

                  Politifact (December 12, 2021) gives this summary

                  Federal data show 771 deaths involving COVID-19 among children. Nine deaths have been associated with one of the COVID-19 vaccines, but none were children.

                  The claim of nearly twice as many children being killed by COVID-19 vaccines — 1,312, when none have been confirmed — is false and ridiculous. We rate it Pants on Fire.

                  Weka gives the data report at number 12, below.

                  • Bill …
                    10 January 2022 at 8:21 pm

                    Well, unless in stark contrast to the clear age stratification observed with Covid, 13 – 18 year olds are less susceptible than 5 – 12 year olds, then the risks for 5-12 year olds are even longer than those 2 in 1 million odds for the broad age demographic of 5 – 18 year olds.

              • Julian Richards …
                10 January 2022 at 11:02 pm

                Link away to the doom ahead of every child who doesn't vaccinate….

        • weka 9.1.1.2
          10 January 2022 at 4:26 pm

          NZ has traditionally had high vaccination rates, achieved mostly by ordinary public health measures. Where we have failed, it looks to me like public health failures around ensuring access barriers are removed, rather than resistance to being vaccinated.

          With covid, time was against us. There are all sorts of problems with the mandates and the passports, but it's hard to see how we would have gotten the rates above 90% in any other way than mandating. If we'd had more time, we probably would have gotten over 90% in a number of months, but it's just not that kind of illness, it's a pandemic.

          Arguments against mandating make sense to some degree except where they also argue that vaccines are ineffective for purpose.

          I agree with a lot of your analysis above. The hyper-individualist view says individual freedom is more important than the collective, and from there use the melee of data and opinions around what works, what doesn't, to bolster the position. The values we start with matter.

          • Bill 9.1.1.2.1
            10 January 2022 at 4:34 pm

            If you are saying vaccine passports were a reasonable way to drive up vaccination rates, now that rates are north of 90%, what is the medical rationale for vaccine passports now?

            • weka 9.1.1.2.1.1
              10 January 2022 at 4:53 pm

              I'm not sure they were reasonable so much as a necessary evil (and as I've said, I think the way the passes and mandates were done was problematic).

              We're still in the thick of a global pandemic, with the need arising for boosters because of omicron.

              And, there are places in NZ that aren't at 90%+ yet.

              And, we probably need higher than 90%.

              And, as McFlock pointed out, vaccine passes limit the ability of people most likely to catch and spread covid from accessing the places where this is most risky

              So it's not a single rationale for the passes, it's the passes in the context of the bigger picture and all the other tools being used.

              • Bill …
                10 January 2022 at 5:11 pm

                In links you provided the other day, only one region was sub-90% (somewhere in central N. Island from memory). Everywhere else had some clear air between their rate and 90%. Anyway…

                And, as McFlock pointed out, vaccine passes limit the ability of people most likely to catch and spread covid from accessing the places where this is most risky

                Except that's utter bullshit because whatever protection m-RNA offers against infection drops off a cliff and everyone was injected at different times. Once infected, a person who has received an m-RNA injection is as infectious as an unvaccinated person who's infected – with a possible difference being that a reduction in the symptoms experienced and a belief they are somehow protected, means a person who has been injected with m-RNA could be more likely to dismiss their symptoms as "not Covid" and mingle when they shouldn't.

                • weka …
                  10 January 2022 at 5:38 pm

                  In links you provided the other day, only one region was sub-90% (somewhere in central N. Island from memory). Everywhere else had some clear air between their rate and 90%. Anyway…

                  Nope. Here's the map. Set it to double vax and DHB. There are large parts of the North Island, and the West Coast, currently under 90%. Other areas that are close to 100% are what give us a national average of 93%

                  https://covid19.govt.nz/news-and-data/covid-19-vaccination-rates-around-new-zealand/

                  You can also see the % rate for each DHB here. I count five out of twenty DHBs still under 90%. If you look at the areas smaller than the DHB you can see where the concentrations are.

                  https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#90pct

                  Notably, the areas below 90% are where many Māori live. This matters.

                • weka …
                  10 January 2022 at 5:41 pm

                  I agree about the mingling thing, but you seem to believe that waning efficacy means there is no protection. Which is plainly a nonsense. People don't go from 60% or whatever to 0% overnight. It's about lessening risk.

                  There's a narrative out there that unvaxxed people are potential plague carriers, which is also a nonsense and bloody unhelpful. But they are more of a risk than vaccinated people, and even though that difference narrows over time, it still makes a difference.

              • Julian Richards …
                10 January 2022 at 11:06 pm

                https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/12/03/world/omicron-norway-christmas-party.amp.html

                Oh no, vaccinated only party were at least half catch covid…. But you said.

                Passports are great for control… Of people

        • Bill 9.1.1.3
          10 January 2022 at 4:28 pm

          That response doesn't address the question in any way, shape of form. Of course effective compliance results in a higher vaccination rate. Currently, vaccination sits north of 90%. All that given…

          …what, if any, medical rationale exists for issuing digital vaccine passports?

          • Sanctuary 9.1.1.3.1
            10 January 2022 at 4:34 pm

            Why do you think it is sitting north of 90%? Everyone is running around saying how wonderful we all are at looking our for each other but if it wasn't for tough compliance – which can be enforced using tools like digital passports – we'd be stuck at 75-80%.

            • Bill 9.1.1.3.1.1
              10 January 2022 at 4:46 pm

              The current rate of vaccination is north of 90%, yes?

              So why have digital vaccine passports not been discontinued? If there is a medical rationale for their continued use, and you know what it is, please share.

              If there is no medical rationale, then what other rationale would you say is in play?

              • Patricia Bremner …
                10 January 2022 at 7:58 pm

                No, until Children are vaccinated our real % is about 76%

                • Bill …
                  10 January 2022 at 8:40 pm

                  And you agree children at an infinitesimal risk from Covid should be punished unless they have an injection that offers precious little protection against Omicron?

                  That's aside from the fact immune systems are initially compromised before the effects of the injection kick in (ie- people are more susceptible to infection in that initial period), and that it would appear from overseas infections, that three injections, not two, are necessary for worthwhile protection in the face of Omicron…which is a comparatively mild infection when stacked up against Delta – that already presented children with a whopping 2 in 1 million risk of getting into deep water?

                  • Tricledrown …
                    11 January 2022 at 1:04 pm

                    18 deaths in NSW yesterday mainly unvaccinated.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    11 January 2022 at 4:59 pm

                    "…and you agree children at an infinitesimal risk from Covid should be punished unless they have an injection…"

                    What over-heated nonsense!

                    • Bill …
                      12 January 2022 at 1:23 pm

                      Over-heated nonsense you say?

                      You want to tell that to the nine year old who will not be allowed to continue her drama classes (letter already received); who will be disqualified from the football team; who will be refused entry to the public swimming pool, library (and even) public toilets?

                      You want to tell her about "the over-heated nonsense" when she can't go to the pictures or eat in the mall or go to indoor facilities that kids her age might normally frequent?

                      Open your damned eyes Robert. From previous comments you seem happy enough with adults losing jobs and being denied full participation in society. But kids!?! Seriously?

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      12 January 2022 at 1:52 pm

                      "You want to tell that …"

                      No, Bill. It's not good practice to put words in other people's mouths/wants in other people's heads.

                      I wonder, is the risk to children (all of the risks associated with Covid) infinitesimal, as you claim? That seems a hyperbolic claim.

                      And the claim that they would be punished for not being vaccinated is a loaded claim and hardly worthy of inclusion in a serious debate: you may characterise exclusion from, say, a public swimming pool, as punishment, but that's unnecessarily emotive, in my opinion.

                      Your "seem" that I am "happy enough" with adults losing jobs and being denied full participation in society, is prejudicial, given I've not discussed those aspects and errs on the side of silly. These are difficult times; that I'm not decrying the more difficult aspects of the pandemic response doesn't mean I'm happy with them.

                    • Bill …
                      12 January 2022 at 2:24 pm

                      The NYT reported it as being incalculable. The BBC (link in post with further links to research) as 2 in 1 000 000.

                      And I'm sure if you hunt down peer reviewed papers on the matter, that basic finding will be repeated again, and again…and again.

                      Children are currently banned from the places I mentioned if they are aged 12 or over. The under 12s will be subjected to the same raft of exclusions after the injections are rolled out to them. As said, a nine year old who I personally know has already been told she cannot continue with her drama classes unless vaccinated next term.

                      Nothing 'unnecessarily emotive' about it.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      12 January 2022 at 2:28 pm

                      "The NYT reported it as being incalculable. The BBC (link in post with further links to research) as 2 in 1 000 000."

                      "It" being "the risk to children"?

                      What does that mean?

                      The NYT report – incalculable because it was so tiny, or because of other factors (lack of data etc). Do you know?

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.3.2
            10 January 2022 at 5:36 pm

            Why do you keep saying it needs a medical reason?

            One of the rationales was to give businesses the ability to open up and keep open during any future incoming virus variants, their issue went hand in hand with the traffic light system and was to address the hardship that many businesses felt with the type of lockdowns we had previously.

            The issue of a vaccine passport gives a bit of certainty and if people ie the public are encouraged to still do business it all helps keep a semblance of normality going and businesses ticking over.

            I did not read that vaccine passports would be time limited.

            A problem that several organsitions I belong to have faced and why they were happy about the passports coming in is that some anti vaxxers or non vaccinated people are anti mask wearers. It seems that those who have had vaccines are more likely to see the benefits of wearing a mask to help themselves and others. I treat non mask wearers as non vaccinated – Wellington is a mask wearing place…..at least the areas and groups I mix with.

            The vaccinated I mix with are well aware of the possibility of break through infections, hence the mask wearing so as to limit the spread. If they got symptoms like Covid it would be unlikely they would class it as just a cold.

            • Bill 9.1.1.3.2.1
              10 January 2022 at 7:41 pm

              Why do you keep saying it needs a medical reason?

              Because the vaccine passport has been sold as a Public Health response?

              And, as said in the OP, taking out a noticeable proportion of passing foot traffic by insisting they adhere to a vaccine passport system of admission/service will likely put some small businesses under.

          • Tricledrown 9.1.1.3.3
            11 January 2022 at 11:35 am

            To reduce the spread of Covid pretty simple.

            Bill why aren't you posting updates of how successful ivermectin is your wanting us to go to previous cherry picked data ie baysean predictive statistics while ignoring Compon's law.

            How about an update on how the Japanese govt is widely using ivermectin(not)

            Or your californian quack who is using ivermectin.

            La times warning people not to listen to quack promoting ivermectin.as the suburb this quack practices in has the highest levels of covid in california because people are listening to quackery rather than science.

            Bill you have danced all over the place trying to baffle with bullshit.

            Your an anti vaxxer admit it be happy with your point of view but don't expect everyone else to fall down the rabbit hole of the Qanon far right divisive conspiracy theories.

        • Matiri 9.1.1.4
          10 January 2022 at 5:10 pm

          Re Sanctuary’s post – Thinking back to the UK in 1956, the NHS was newly established, Polio was a major disabler if not killer, infant deaths were high etc etc. The population embraced the state taking care of their health, teeth, vision etc all for free. I was one of the first babies to be born into a system where the NHS wrapped me in excellent care from birth. That included vaccinations.

        • Paul Campbell 9.1.1.5
          10 January 2022 at 10:42 pm

          Not only that, the 1956 health act was written by a bunch of old men ….. who had been young men who had come back to war to live through the Spanish Flu …. they had real practical experience of a major pandemic, they saw it all play out and when they rewrote the Health Act they put the doctors and scientists in charge …. we owe them a debt of gratitude.

      • Tricledrown 9.1.2
        11 January 2022 at 10:58 am

        ToBill the self appointed highly trained public health expert.More people vaccinated less people clogging up hospitals.

        Bill an International health stats expert who doesn't understand Compon's law.

        Bill the highly trained medical expert who thinks and links to early ivermectin treatment.

        Bill you have undermined your agenda by flailing all over the place dropping in conspiracy theories with a few cherry picked facts .

        Now you are saying its another conspiracy for govts to take over ie. 1984.

        You heard the story of the boy who cried wolf.

        Your a sheep in clowns clothes.

  10. Trinity 10
    10 January 2022 at 4:29 pm

    Three of my friends have lost their jobs today due to their disobedience. One was a lovely, sensible GP who dared to question the narrative and spoke out very carefully, she was suspended, another was an RN who had nursed at our local hospital for 30 years and refused her second injection, she was dismissed without so much as a goodbye and a successful chiropractor who had seen severe reactions (including four deaths) among her direct contacts, or one degree of separation. She refused the injections and now out of her practice. It is a sad day indeed.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      10 January 2022 at 4:49 pm

      Good to see you reporting this and it's been in the pipeline awhile, eh? Even though I got my booster this afternoon, I've long been aware of the downside of vaccination for some people & govt/media denial of outlier experiences is always a thing.

      For victims of govt policy, fightback is the political learning curve. I suggest you encourage them to move swiftly through dejection or depression and organise themselves into a common-cause activist group. Individualism is the default, but the psychological consequences can be a killer…

    • Shanreagh 10.2
      10 January 2022 at 5:52 pm

      Why would a second vaccination be refused? They had already got the process underway…why not complete it? If the GP is this one then sorry I am not sorry

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127464988/kaiapoi-vax-exemption-doctor-no-longer-able-to-practise

      I thought that there had only been a couple of verified deaths from the actual vaccination.

      Here is the report from MOH as at 4/12/21.

      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-38.asp

      At that stage there had been one death and I think there has been one further one that looks as though it might be linked, the young plumber from down south.

      Dennis Frank has been gracious, but I wonder what sort of verified information these contacts had? People working in the health sector are not immune to the impact of anti vax propaganda.

      • weka 10.2.1
        10 January 2022 at 5:59 pm

        Why would a second vaccination be refused?

        Adverse reactions would be one reason. Concern over longer term impacts.

      • Koreropono 10.2.2
        10 January 2022 at 8:34 pm

        And do you not think that 'a çouple of verified deaths' is not a couple too many? I can't help but wonder about the 'unverified' deaths, those who've died within days of receiving the injection. A number of people I know personally have had significant adverse reactions to the mRNA injection – two unable to get the second dose because of the harm it caused them and others who having had two doses will not even contemplate a 'booster'. I imagine there's a number of us who know someone who had a reaction beyond what should be acceptable for any administered drug, let alone an experimental one.

      • Julian Richards 10.2.3
        10 January 2022 at 11:10 pm

        Immunity to propaganda… How do we achieve this?!?

        God knows we all need it.. Boost away when you find the cure

        • Robert Guyton 10.2.3.1
          11 January 2022 at 11:22 am

          "Immunity to propaganda… How do we achieve this?!?"

          There are a number of sound strategies for gaining immunity to propaganda.

          Capable commentators have outline these strategies on a number of platforms (I'm surprised you've not seen them).

          The strategy I rely on most, is to check to see what those people whose opinions I have found to be best over time, over all sorts of issues, and collate those views. On these issues, I find a very strong correlation of view from my "mentors" – hence my support for vaccination and the Government's programme of care for the community.

          How do you go about deciding, Julian?

    • Tricledrown 10.3
      11 January 2022 at 11:40 am

      Trying the emotional blackmail trick.

      Well I don't want doctors who don't believe in science treating me.

      That's her choice she is putting everyone else including other doctors surgeons and nurses at risk.

  11. Sanctuary 11
    10 January 2022 at 4:30 pm

    Look, the contradiction at the heart of this post should be obvious. On the one hand we've got essentially Marxist historical determinism combined with a hyper-normalised liberal individualism both born from a deep distrust of the state. No wonder such strange bedfellows produces such a perverted outcome – the idea that we are advancing towards an inevitable dystopian big brother surveillance state unless we reject the state and embrace political and technological luddism.

    There is nothing inevitable about a liberal democracy that embraces technology turning in a Chinese style surveillance state. Further, such technology is coming whether you or I like it or not – unless you can imagine a wholesale rejection of technology more suited to a Star Trek fairy tale than real life.

    The left has to stop making common cause with neoliberal narcissists against the state and onstead work to ensure that real, substantive democracy persists right down to grass roots and that technology operates to serve the values of the left and make for a better society for everyone.

    • Shanreagh 11.1
      10 January 2022 at 6:06 pm

      The left has to stop making common cause with neoliberal narcissists against the state and onstead work to ensure that real, substantive democracy persists right down to grass roots and that technology operates to serve the values of the left and make for a better society for everyone.

      Couldn't agree more. Perpetuating or giving air to this on and on anti vax, anti mandate, anti traffic light system as if it contains live issues just plays into the anti state rhetoric of the Nats etc.

      People who did not accept the vaccine will have done so knowing the consequences.

      To me feeling sorry for them just undermines their decision and their sovereignty as a person able to consider info and make their own decisions. I have been in the situation of making one of these decisions, in my working life, not health-wise and if someone had said that they felt sorry for me I'd have been most annoyed.

      We have all been making our own decisions, if it turns out that getting the vaccine was a bad move and I end up with two heads or three feet well so be it. I would be most grumpy if this had come about because key results about dual headedness or three footedness had been withheld. I would not be grumpy because I made a decision with all the info I could access……no.

      Sorry Sanctuary I dived away from the topic. I will come back to it.

      • Anne 11.1.1
        10 January 2022 at 6:52 pm

        "Sorry Sanctuary I dived away from the topic."

        Don't worry Shanreagh you're on the button. Thank God we've got people like yourself and Sanctuary on this site. There are others too of course. Me? I'm burnt out arguing the toss with the anti-brigade. Millions upon millions of lives around the world have been saved since vaccines were invented. I remember the TB vaccination programme of the 1950s. We were lined up in our classrooms and given the jab. No child was exempt and as far as I recall.

        So what's the difference? None. While they were not called "mandates" that is effectively what they were. Nobody complained then so why this plethora of hysteria now?

        • Anne 11.1.1.1
          10 January 2022 at 7:13 pm

          And as for dumb bunny National Party politicians (add the ACT Party too) this one takes the cake.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-mp-who-took-selfie-with-protesters-claimed-sinister-motive-behind-governments-covid-powers/DFAFWVBMNCT4R2YA47NFPGBRDM/?c_id=1&objectid=12497489

          Its a premium item so if someone can link to the full text well and good.

          • Pete 11.1.1.1.1
            10 January 2022 at 10:40 pm

            I'm not sure it's all "dumb bunny." The article gives the National Party people a chance to show who they are and what they're about.

            Hipango said Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and the Government had "severely imposed under urgency oppressive powers and incursions on NZ and NZers under the mask of Covid”.

            She said history would "in time reveal the sinister manipulation and abuses of power that have occurred during these Covid times”.

            "She asked: "And what yet of suicide death rates and other deaths consequent of hospital lockdowns awaiting Covid hospitalisations. The Government continues to mask and hide the truths of this and much else."

            Statistics released by Chief Coroner Judge Deborah Marshall showed fewer people had died by suspected suicide between July 2020 and June 2021. A November 2020 Ministry of Health survey found fewer people than the previous year reporting a lack of access to healthcare when needed, although studies have also shown hospital admissions and operations down."

            Hipango's on a campaign to rubbish the Government and it it comes with the usual crap.

            The Party itself? Luxon plays the expected straight bat, and has a coded message for "Pull your fucking head in!"

            In a statement, he said: "Over the weekend I had a discussion with Harete Hipango underscoring my strong expectation that National MPs do not make posts that could be construed as anti-vaccination, regardless of whether that was the intent of the post.

            "Harete has given me her assurance that this won't happen going forward. I am strongly supportive of vaccination, as is the National party. I encourage everyone to take that step as the best protection, for themselves and their family, against Covid."

            The dumb bunny bit: Hipango seems to be one with those 'out in left field' attitudes about vaccination. Ironically she won't be able to express her attitudes and say what she thinks. She's all gung-ho about Freedom and Choice and yet doesn't have those luxuries. If she had principles she'd resign.

            • Anne 11.1.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2022 at 9:57 am

              Hi Pete,

              Thanks for that. You need to lay out your post so the quotes are clearly separate from your comments. I found it a bit hard to tell which was which. The best way is to use the inverted commas icon above.

              Example from your post:

              In a statement, he said:

              "Over the weekend I had a discussion with Harete Hipango underscoring my strong expectation that National MPs do not make posts that could be construed as anti-vaccination, regardless of whether that was the intent of the post…

              She's still a dumb bunny imo. She must have believed she would get away with publicly making ill conceived and nonsensical claims.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.1.1.2
          10 January 2022 at 7:20 pm

          " Me? I'm burnt out arguing the toss with the anti-brigade. "

          I 100% know how you feel.

          This Sheeple has just one thing left to say.

          "BAAAAAAAAAA"

      • Julian Richards 11.1.2
        10 January 2022 at 11:12 pm

        Empathy and humility are obviously not your strongest points. Give them a go sometime soon

        • Shanreagh 11.1.2.1
          10 January 2022 at 11:36 pm

          Be great if we could fathom what you are alluding to. My view is that people should accept that the decisions made by people who are not wanting the vaccination have been made with due thought as to the consequences. How is that not showing empathy?

          • Julian Richards 11.1.2.1.1
            11 January 2022 at 9:05 am

            Exactly that, empathy and humility are obviously not your strongest points. Give them a go.

            • Anne 11.1.2.1.1.1
              11 January 2022 at 10:10 am

              Projecting much Julian Richards?

              • Julian Richards …
                11 January 2022 at 11:30 am

                Saying it as I see it. And it's clear to see from the comments @shanreagh consistently puts up.

                • Shanreagh …
                  11 January 2022 at 11:55 am

                  Well you are seeing it wrongly and misinterpreting what i say.

                  Do you think that people have not thought of the consequences when they make the decision not to vaccinate. If so why not just say so?

                  Any chance of a some reasoned/reasonable responses rather than enigmatic sayings that reflect a Facebook ethos.

                  or

                  do I just give up, accept that you have misunderstood me and move on.

                  Blood from stones springs to mind.

            • Shanreagh 11.1.2.1.1.2
              11 January 2022 at 11:12 am

              Your meaning is most unclear due to your Farcebook-like replies.

              So I take from what you are saying that we should not feel empathy for the anti vaxxers. We should not accept that they have made their decisions with full regards to the consequences.

              I am saying the anti vaxxers should be recognised as having made the decisions not to vaccinate based on information, including knowing what the consequences may be. That is what I am saying.

  12. weka 12
    10 January 2022 at 4:38 pm

    Here's the CDC report on pfizer vaccine safety for children 5 – 12 years, for those interested.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm705152a1-H.pdf

    • Bill 12.1
      10 January 2022 at 5:04 pm

      You're link – Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine was administered to 3,109 children aged 5–11 years; most adverse events were mild to moderate, and no serious adverse events related to vaccination were reported

      Maddie De Garay. 12 year old participant in Pfizer trials. And here. That's all.

      From the first of those two links – "….Pfizer-BioNTech phase 3 trial of adolescents aged 12-15 years began, 1131 were administered two-doses of the vaccine and 1129 were given a placebo."

      • weka 12.1.1
        10 January 2022 at 5:09 pm

        1131+1129 =/= 3109, so not sure what you are trying to compare there.

        • Bill 12.1.1.1
          10 January 2022 at 5:16 pm

          Your link states "no serious adverse events". Maddie De Garay was 12. Very severe adverse event from a cohort of just over 1000 – though Pfizer noted her down as a mild event and unblinded her, meaning they didn't have to report on what their injection did to her. (It's all in the links I provided)

          • weka 12.1.1.1.1
            10 January 2022 at 6:47 pm

            I'm not watching videos. If this is a legit case (and I see no reason thus far why it's not, but how would I know?) then why is the alt media not writing it up in a way that presents evidence that makes sense?

            Big pharma are capitalist arseholes. Pfizer has form. This doesn't mean that the pfizer covid vaccine is dangerous to children as a class. You're making a bunch of assertions, and then comparing one part of the trial with another (?) and drawing some conclusion, but failing to present the evidence (and no, don't tell me to go watch videos or whatever, the onus is on you to present an actual evidence based argument, not on the rest of us to do that homework).

            All drugs have side effects. All of them. It's a big part of mainstream bullshit that runs a 'lalala, apharmaceuticals are safe' narrative. But singling out this covid vaccine to run a specific line doesn't make sense to me because I already know there are adverse reactions and events. One severe adverse reaction (we don't know why yet) doesn't prove your case.

            If you want your theory to be taken seriously, it needs more than abstract assertions and internet video links.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1.1.1.2
            10 January 2022 at 7:12 pm

            That isn't what unblinding is about, and unblinding doesn't mean you can omit observations. Your comment ("what their injection did to her") shows you are convinced the injection caused her symptoms. There were also adverse events in the placebo group. Maddie de Garay's case should be carefully looked at, but some very quick and loose (and in my view, presumptuous) conclusions have been made by people who are consistently anti-vaccine.

            Here is the article published on the trial in question.

            Maybe more definitive information will come to light about Maddie de Garay's case, but it isn't in the public domain yet as far as I can see.

            • Bill 12.1.1.1.2.1
              10 January 2022 at 7:47 pm

              Her family are most certainly not anti-vaccine – they all put their hands up for the trials for god's sake because they thought it was a noble and right thing to do.

              • Hanswurst …
                11 January 2022 at 12:12 am

                That isn't evidence that her symptoms are due to the vaccine. It's just further evidence that you believe that righteous moral arguments and medically sound arguments can be conflated.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1.2
        10 January 2022 at 6:43 pm

        A causal link to the vaccine is not established in the case of Maddie De Garay (and a causal link, from a single observation in isolation, is very difficult to establish with confidence in any situation). There is description of her symptoms from her family, and assertion that they are due to the vaccine, but no detailed medical or technical information seems to be available in the pubic domain, at a glance.

        • weka 12.1.2.1
          10 January 2022 at 6:48 pm

          Would the family know if she was in the vaccine or placebo group? Would Pfizer?

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1.2.1.1
            10 January 2022 at 7:16 pm

            That is what unblinding is about – letting people know which group the person was in. This can be done for several reasons, including to assist medical diagnosis / treatment.

            Before the unblinding, the participant and their family would not know which group they were in. At least some of the researchers would not be blind – you need some people unblinded so they can monitor for treatment-linked adverse effects (and pause or halt the trial if needed etc).

        • mauī 12.1.2.2
          10 January 2022 at 8:00 pm

          The personal testimony is strong evidence in itself. Unless it's unreliable for some reason, which I've seen no evidence of.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1.2.2.1
            10 January 2022 at 9:39 pm

            It may be 100% reliable as a description of the symptoms and the timing – but that alone does not prove causation when you have a single observation.

            And that is a very important thing to be sure about, because whether something was actually caused by something, or just coincidental to something, means everything in this case.

            • mauī 12.1.2.2.1.1
              10 January 2022 at 10:53 pm

              If it's such an important thing to get right, why is de Garay's "reactions" post vaccine not included in the trial report you linked to above (12.1.1.1.2)? The family claim she was effectively written out of the report.

  13. Gabby 13
    10 January 2022 at 4:38 pm

    What all would Typhoid Mary all do, I ask myall self.

  14. Ed 14
    10 January 2022 at 5:14 pm

    It’s April 1st , right?

  15. Tiger Mountain 15
    10 January 2022 at 6:06 pm

    “The cheese has slid off Bill’s cracker” was my first reaction to this post. And after further consideration it is my second also.

    I went to school with kids wearing gruesome callipers so they could achieve a semblance of walking and participating due to having suffered effects of Polio. We lined up when requested for vaccinations for Polio (oral liquid) and TB onwards. How many people do you see using their arms for legs as per Polio veterans these days? That's right.

    Previous vaccination success obviously should not negate the obvious about the powers of the capitalist and surveillance state, and the gouging pharmaceutical corporates. Governments the world over could have put COVID vaccine production on a war footing and paid cost only, nationalised, or licensed Cuban versions or whatever–but not going to happen obviously under neo liberal hegemony.

    There are some fair enough points of principle in Bill’s post but…if avoiding preventable deaths are a desirable thing for New Zealanders to do then lets stick with the programme.

    • Dennis Frank 15.1
      10 January 2022 at 6:38 pm

      Yeah there was a boy in my class in primary school in the 1950s who had to have one of those metal walking frames strapped permanently around the whole of one of his legs. Neil Young says in his autobiography that he had the same as a boy. Interesting that he grew out of that condition though, eh?

      I agree that govt must use the precautionary principle when designing public health rules but we could be entering a transition period when phasing them out becomes reasonable…

      • Patricia Bremner 15.1.1
        11 January 2022 at 10:33 pm

        You don't grow out of it Frank. He probably had calipers for a time and then exercises(Basic physio) and strengthened the muscles and stretched the ligaments and tendons.

        There are varying degrees of damage and the Polio virus would affect the body by building up fluid on the spine. The pressure points would shut off the messages to muscles which would then atrophy. It also affected the myelin of the nerves.

        There were two schools of thought about treatments. 1. calipers and home after the feverish phase. 2. Physio based on the Australian Nurse Sister Kenny, along with lumber punctures to draw off fluid. That required 6 months in hospital and the agreement of the parents. I had the 2nd treatment in 1947 at age 6. I also took the oral vaccine at 21.
        I had to learn to walk again on a frame /with a stick then alone unaided. I persisted with the exercises hot packs stretches for ten years . I danced played hockey and taught for 35 years. Thanks to my knowlegable Dad who understood “Use it or lose it”.
        I had the vaccine because I understood my immunity might wear off, and there were different types of polio virus.

    • weka 15.2
      10 January 2022 at 6:50 pm

      There are some fair enough points of principle in Bill’s post but…

      The issues of the surveillance and controlling state definitely need addressing, just like they did before covid. It's almost impossible to see how they can be debated when presented alongside a range of largely unevidenced assertions about public health during a global pandemic. Reading the room comes to mind.

      • weka 15.2.1
        10 January 2022 at 6:51 pm

        I'd probably say that posts like this make such a discussion distinctly less likely.

        • Bill 15.2.1.1
          10 January 2022 at 8:07 pm

          I wonder how it's possible to discuss NZs supposed Public Health response is about establishing a toe hold into a future of digital surveillance without discussing the nature of NZs Public Health response?

          Has everyone forgotten we were told children were A-OK with regards Covid and that was why, after the initial lock down (that I supported btw), children were to be the first ones back into the world? What changed in the field of medical knowledge that NZ drifted from that position then to now, where they've to be excluded from social participation unless they can show evidence of having been injected?

          • miravox 15.2.1.1.1
            11 January 2022 at 9:29 am

            I wonder how it's possible to discuss NZs supposed Public Health response is about establishing a toe hold into a future of digital surveillance without discussing the nature of NZs Public Health response?

            A discussion worth having, I believe. I can also see how vaccine passports are an example that would be used for people who are concerned about surveillance state. I think though, you've derailed you own post by your take on child vaccinations to both – in this context because the debate became about covid statistics, not the surveillance state. The vaccine passes issue in general was enough to make the point, imo.

            What changed in the field of medical knowledge that NZ drifted from that position…

            We've seen all the way through this pandemic recommendations and processes change as scientific knowledge, business needs and social acceptance of measures has fed into the process. The government has always made that clear.

            • Bill 15.2.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2022 at 11:39 pm

              You have a point miravox, and I accept responsibility for my part in allowing comments to variously diverge from and side-step the main thrust of the post. It won't be happening in any future posts.

    • Bill 15.3
      10 January 2022 at 7:52 pm

      I also went to school alongside a kid with polio. And I got all my childhood injections and have nothing against vaccination. (Maybe bear in mind that the definition of "vaccine" had to be changed in the Merriam Webster dictionary to retrospectively accommodate the medical reality of m-RNA injections?)

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 15.3.1
        10 January 2022 at 9:35 pm

        Of course you do know that pretty much every cell in your body already contains mRNA. And the proteins in the polio vaccine (and many other vaccines, including Novavax) were all synthesised using mRNA? A great deal of what you eat also contains mRNA.

        And guess what happens when you get Covid19? You start to produce lots of mRNA that is very similar to the mRNA in the mRNA vaccines, but in this case from the virus and it is used to synthesise real and complete virus particles, instead of just a harmless piece of a virus.

  16. Shanreagh 16
    10 January 2022 at 6:15 pm

    I seem to recall that the fear of surveillance through seemingly benign actions was also a factor when we moved to the Driver Licensing system we have now, also the possibility of a gun register and the current firearms licensing regime. We had those who felt it was a few steps away from control of individuals. Also the Whanganui Computer centre when it was set up.

    Any legislation is subjected to Bill of Rights analysis and our role as citizens is to call out about any shortcomings.

    But on this issue Sanctuary says it well

    And honestly, just pause have a think about what is being proposed here. The idea that the vaccination of children on the advice of public health experts is somehow linked to a vast plot to subjugate us all in some sort of surveillance dystopia is utter looney tunes territory.

    • Ed 16.1
      10 January 2022 at 6:40 pm

      Totally agree with Sanctuary that this is is utter looney tunes territory.

    • weka 16.2
      10 January 2022 at 6:54 pm

      Any legislation is subjected to Bill of Rights analysis and our role as citizens is to call out about any shortcomings.

      Setting aside the theories in the post for a moment, we do have reasonably good civil liberties responses in NZ, but let's not forget that Bill English was in the process of removing privacy rights before they lost the 2017 election. The police trialling face recognition tech. The casual way that some liberals say 'oh we lost all our privacy to FB, what does it matter if the govt takes some too'. That Labour afaik still haven't put into legislation that covid tracing app data can't be used for other purposes, it's just policy, which is a serious vulnerability. And so on.

    • Bill 16.3
      10 January 2022 at 7:56 pm

      looney tunes territory

      Precisely what was leveled at those who, at the beginning of all this said there would be vaccine passports employed to confer conditional freedoms…

  17. georgecom 17
    10 January 2022 at 7:34 pm

    The one term I agreed with in this post is public health. vaccinating children is a public health response. whether they urgently needed it or not, it helps suppress covid19 which benefits other sectors of the population. adults do that for children when there is a measles outbreak, many a parent has had a shot for the benefit of their kids.

    • Julian Richards 17.1
      11 January 2022 at 11:33 am

      So if we got 2, 3, or even possibly 4 measles vaccine injections in 12 months and still got measles? Is there a problem?

      • Robert Guyton 17.1.1
        11 January 2022 at 11:44 am

        Do you mean the SAME measles, or different versions of the first measles?

        Covid's coming in versions: Delta, Omicron etc.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 17.1.2
        11 January 2022 at 11:55 am

        If the 2 – 4 vaccinations resulted in the number of people still getting measles being much lower (but not zero) than without the vaccine, then the vaccine could be considered a useful (efficacious) intervention.

  18. Koreropono 18
    10 January 2022 at 8:00 pm

    Kia ora Bill

    Thank you for pointing out the obvious, though looks like the usual 'believe at all costs' folk are hell bent on ignoring the potential implications of the possibility that, 1) the injection may be detrimental to children who have a higher risk of death from flu than from Covid, and 2) that the push to inject children may be tied to another, more insidious and detrimental agenda.

    While the frenzy to inject all and sundry, including children who don't need it, may seem justified to the fearful, their continued pontification and avoidance is tiresome and in and of itself an indication of the madness that they accuse you of.

    Sadly, in 7 days some parents will be marching their babies to the covidian cultists' altar, a cult that believe that sacrificing little people for 'the greater good' and to 'save grandma' is something they should be proud of. I wonder how many New Zealand 5 to 12 year olds will either suffer serious adverse reactions to this injection or die because of it, not withstanding the unknown long term consequences of the mRNA injections. I hope that no child is harmed by this but that seems unlikely given that there have already been significant harm caused in other age groups.

    It's a sad and sick society that is willing to throw children under the bus, not for their own well being but to 'save grandma'. Did anyone ask grandma how she might feel about the possibility that 'saving' her means putting her grandchildren in harms way? I know many grandparents who'd never tolerate that. So how many children need to be sacrificed for those, addicted to fear, to feel safe enough ? Or do you all think the sacrifice is worth the ‘greater good’ mantra you all keep telling yourselves – what you really mean is ‘it’s for my good’ – because that’s what selfish people would say.

  19. Blazer 19
    10 January 2022 at 8:19 pm

    Very recent anecdotal case in Queensland….6 people had dinner in a restaurant-4 over 70 and 2 in their early 40's.

    1 of the over 70's experienced mild symptoms and self isolated.

    1 in their early 40's had more severe symptoms and took himself and his partner to get tested.

    After waiting nearly a day for a test,a couple of days later ,before receiving any results

    the partner became very distressed and was sent to hospital.

    After 3 days in hospital with treatment ,was sent home.

    The other 3 over 70's have no symptoms and are awaiting R.A.T kits.

    The restaurant they ate at is still open.

    I think it shows that some people vaccinated or not are more susceptible to this new Omicron virus, which arrived just before Xmas from Africa and makes a case for more booster shots…and vaxxing youngsters.indecision

    • Koreropono 19.1
      10 January 2022 at 8:51 pm

      Why 'vaxxing youngsters'? Is that for their (children's) well being or someone else's benefit? So a group of vaxxed people went out to eat, despite their vaccines they still caught a virus, and now it's children who should be chucked under the bus? How does that make sense?

      All I see is a bunch of frightened adults who think their fear will only be alleviated once every living thing on the planet is injected no matter the consequences for those injected. It is a sad and psychologically unsound society that would harm children to 'save' others. I think of it as human sacrifice, except these are the most vulnerable humans in the society – the ones the society is supposed to protect. Yet here we are watching while many are rubbing their hands with glee, a look of madness in their eyes as children are lined up one after the other, ready to be pushed into the abyss. None of you know what the long term consequences of these injections are (because 'we' are the experiment, and that's not withstanding the known potential consequences/side effects that many of you are ready to inflict on children. Why people aren't ashamed is beyond me.

      • Shanreagh 19.1.1
        10 January 2022 at 10:49 pm

        Good grief. Get along to the the creative writing course started by Bill Manhire at Vic. https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/modernletters/study/postgraduate/postgrad-ma

        There is no doubt one can argue a persuasive case sometimes by OTT writing ie hyperbole/exaggeration. Usually this is part of a deliberate arguing strategy to ridicule the other side by exaggeration. Usually it is clear that this is so. I get the feeling though that this is not an arguing strategy but that you actually believe it.

        A reductio ad absurdum argument done well is a joy. I prefer to be persuaded by factual discussions.

        To critique:

        Bill's old trope of people thinking differently from him being 'frightened'. He has been trying very hard to convince us that we are frightened. So far his entreaties and expectations that I am frightened have not worked. I am disappointed that you think in the same way. What are reasonable discussions about preparedness seem to be triggering a view in both of you that this must mean we are frightened.

        'No matter what the consequences'……all the vaccines used have been tested and meet approved safety standards, vaccinators meet safety standards, holding and storage of vaccines meets the standards.

        No person is being forcibly vaccinated

        No person is being vaccinated and damn the consequences

        All of us who are vaccinated have an element of saving others ie the more of us who are vaccinated the less the virus will spread or have virulence

        Human sacrifices – rubbish

        'Rubbing hands with glee', 'the abyss' – Hyperbole, rubbish

        We are not the experiment, you have been reading too many anti vax memes

        Side effects are known & listed on the info given out with the vaccines

        Do you really truly believe this of your fellow NZers…..that we are doing all these bad things you have made up? Why?

        All I see is a bunch of frightened adults who think their fear will only be alleviated once every living thing on the planet is injected no matter the consequences for those injected. It is a sad and psychologically unsound society that would harm children to 'save' others. I think of it as human sacrifice, except these are the most vulnerable humans in the society – the ones the society is supposed to protect. Yet here we are watching while many are rubbing their hands with glee, a look of madness in their eyes as children are lined up one after the other, ready to be pushed into the abyss. None of you know what the long term consequences of these injections are (because 'we' are the experiment, and that's not withstanding the known potential consequences/side effects that many of you are ready to inflict on children. Why people aren't ashamed is beyond me.

        • Julian Richards 19.1.1.1
          10 January 2022 at 11:23 pm

          "ie the more of us who are vaccinated the less the virus will spread or have virulence."

          Widely available statistics evidence available that blows 'your opinion' out of the water… Gibraltar, Spain, Ireland, Denmark, Israel, France, Italy, UAE etc etc.

        • Koreropono 19.1.1.2
          11 January 2022 at 12:04 am

          And as typically happens with your ilk, nothing substantive to say about the 'topic' but instead skirts around the issue with pernicious hyperbole designed to derail anything that comes close to truth. The truth in this case is that fearful adults are willing to push children into an experiment with no evidence that there will be no long term negative consequences to them, and in spite of evidence that some may be seriously and irrevocably harmed. This is intentional and it is nothing short of madness. I imagine you'd be at the front of the pack of zealots pushing five year olds into the abyss.

          I have noticed that much of the commenters on this thread failed to engage with the themes within the OP, but instead resorted to behaviour similar to yours. Including labeling, derision, making comment without any considered effort to debate the information presented, instead casting assertions about the writer while hiding from the uncomfortable truth that many here would see children thrown under a bus just to make sure we keep 'grandma is safe'. I suppose adults still know it's not yet acceptable to harm children, which is why many prefer not to talk about it. And yet if the children involved were those harmed at the hands of caregivers and parents you'd all be outraged but State sanctioned, coerced and forced harm is acceptable?

          • Drowsy M. Kram 19.1.1.2.1
            11 January 2022 at 2:36 am

            Your "labeling"- and "derision"-laden 'typical of your ilk, pushing five year olds into the experimental abyss and throwing children under buses' critique is – intriguing.

            It's regrettable that some commenters have failed to engage with the OP theme, but they're only human – monsterous anti-child humans, apparently, concerned only with keeping grandma safe. Won't someone please think of the grandpas!

            as typically happens with your ilk
            nothing substantive to say
            skirts around the issue
            pernicious hyperbole             [seriously and irrevocably harmed]
            designed to derail
            fearful adults
            push children into an experiment
            nothing short of madness
            pack of zealots
            pushing five year olds into the abyss
            casting assertions             [sic]
            children thrown under a bus
            State sanctioned, coerced and forced harm

            Imho, parents/legal guardians who consent to children in their care being vaccinated against COVID-19 typically do so with the best of intentions, i.e. consent isn't given with the intention of harming children. Nor are those administering vaccine doses doing so with the intention of harming children, although I'd be wary of the ‘white death’ confections on offer with every jab.

            Government launches new advertising campaign urging pregnant women to 'Get Boosted Now' [9 Jan. 2022]

            Should my child have a COVID vaccine? Here’s what can happen when parents disagree [10 Jan. 2022]

            Unite against
            COVID-19
            https://covid19.govt.nz/covid-19-vaccines/get-the-facts-about-covid-19-vaccination/covid-19-vaccination-and-children/

            • Koreropono 19.1.1.2.1.1
              11 January 2022 at 7:22 am

              Consent and informed consent are interesting concepts. Informed consent requires all information be provided so that individuals can make a choice. Informed consent is not possible when information is being selectively provided to participants, as is currently the case.

              Consent cannot be considered given when there has been an element of coercion involved. As has been the case with many individuals who simply got injected to keep jobs, maintain relationships and participate in society. The Government promoted and supported the coercion and they engaged businesses to act as the overseers of this coercion.

              Take that a step further, the Government also promoted and encouraged division, segregation and discrimination in their effort to coerce people to get the injection. These tactics extended to children being excluded from participating in society if they do not have the injection. That is psychological and emotional abuse perpetrated by Government, businesses and local councils.

              Most parents and caregivers who are choosing to have their child injected are doing so because they trust the government. The government is providing selective information to parents. There is no informed consent.

              Some parents are simply getting the children injected so that said children can participate in society. I imagine some parents are weighing up the social and psychological harm caused by their child being excluded from society or the potential physical harm caused by the injections.

              Some children whose parents have said they do not want the child being injected, have become so distressed by being excluded from society that they have begged to get the injection just so they can do what their injected mates are doing. That's not informed consent, it's coercion through social exclusion.

              Some parents simply want to get their kids injected because to not do so will be disruptive to their lives.

              In light of the evidence that children are at less risk of dying from Covid than they are of dying from seasonal flu, one cannot help but question why the Government has promoted/encouraged this injection for children when it has no benefit for them, but does pose known risks (and no evidence of long term safety). One also has to question if this is 'choice', why has the Government actively encouraged and promoted abusive strategies to be employed against the non-injected, including children? And why are non-injected children being excluded from participating in society? These are uncomfortable truths that no one wants to engage with.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                11 January 2022 at 10:50 am

                Thanks for your thoughtful comment – we can agree to disagree about informed consent, which comes down to the information sources you trust.

                For example, regarding the safety and efficacy of mRNA vaccines against COVID-19, I choose to trust consensus expert medical opinion, and have advised my family and friends to do the same, although ultimately the choice is theirs. Consensus expert opinion is by no means infallible, but we all have to trust something/someone – otherwise life would be unbearable.

                I know people who have 'gone through' up to six experts in search of the opinion they wanted to hear, whereas I've not gone beyond a 2nd opinion.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_consensus

                9.46 billion doses have been administered globally, and 31.65 million are now administered each day.
                Only 8.9% of people in low-income countries have received at least one dose.

                https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

          • Shanreagh 19.1.1.2.2
            11 January 2022 at 11:16 am

            Yet more projecting onto to those who are comfortable with the roll out of the vaccinations, the govt's role.

            My plea was to say that persuasive argument is much more likely to make people think than an argument full of dramatic underpinnings especially an argument that is ad hominem. Drowsy has said it better than I can 19.1.1.2.1

  20. mickysavage 20
    10 January 2022 at 8:26 pm

    And people thing that Standard authors are programmed to push the party line …

  21. Corey Humm 21
    10 January 2022 at 8:28 pm

    I'm double vaxxed and have the pass, while I disagree with many things in this blog post I'm shocked and glad to see a blog post like this because the left have become a group who if not steeped in idpol are worshiping at the alter of civil servants and the professional managerial class and any disagreement with the status quo is blasphemy. Disagreeing with the PMC makes you a heretic to some.

    Im no anti vaxxer but questions and arguments about civil liberties and ongoing emergency are not blasphemy, they are essential.

    I hate the vax passport. It's badly written, takes too long to load makes no sense that I have to scan in AND show this pass. I can understand it's use as an extremely temporary measure but it should not be extended. It's existence is authoritarian by design.

    It seems many of the commenters above don't understand what you mean by a social credit system, it's Chinas version of a class system, research it, it's truly terrifying. Watch the episode of black mirror where people only interact with people with similar social scores to themselves. It is a truly tech dystopian nightmare.

    Anyone who trusts big tech,the banking cartels, big pharma and the neoliberal managers of the state with permeant emergency powers scares me. Our media is useless at holding the powerful to account on a good day.

    Getting vaxxed is one thing. Having this pass be permeant is another and where these kinds of authoritarian policies lead to are indeed scary.

    My pass is for a months by the time the pass expires, the passport system needs to go. It will only lead to civil unrest, division and more authoritarian social credit style ideas by neoliberal managers, big tech and the media "to keep us safe" when all we need from them is to fix housing, mental health, inflation, supermarket duopoly, increase healthcare capabilities and fund medicine that keeps New Zealanders healthy.

    This vax passport needs to be temporary these kinds of intrusive policies can never be permeant.

    • Dennis Frank 21.1
      10 January 2022 at 8:53 pm

      permeant

      Had to google it. Cool word eh? Means penetrating. Fits the govt agenda perfectly. As one of the penetrated majority, I feel no pain as yet. Got my boost done this afternoon so I'm at stage 3 now after lift-off. Stratospherical. Haven't seen Elon Musk floating past yet though – may have to wait for stage 4 in four months time.

      Anyway, Corey, enough of the cultural ambience already, I'll get to the point. Labour's focus is organisational acumen. Not part of their trad culture so good to see the attempt. However I do agree that forgetting about Orwell's warnings to western civilisation is a serious mistake. Labour would probably complain that he's history & they don't do history but it would cause too much mass eye-rolling out there in the electorate. Labour poll ratings would be threatened.

      If I was a political consultant hired by Labour I'd advise them to wise up & integrate the Orwellian dimension into their political strategy. Sensible reassurance for paranoid people ought to be on their radar screen already. No sign of that, eh?

      Not clever. Leftists always make the mistake of expecting voters to think like them. Labour would probably respond to that by explaining that they're not really leftists – just pretending. Fair enough. But marketing works best if you meet the actual expectations of people instead of trying to manipulate their expectations. Particularly in a pandemic situation, honesty is likely to minimise collective hallucinating.

    • Julian Richards 21.2
      10 January 2022 at 11:25 pm

      You can either have the passport or money, but you can't have both.

      Choices to make on both sides (of the coin).

  22. Adrian 22
    10 January 2022 at 8:38 pm

    Nothing like a good pandemic to arc-up the single issue wombats eh. And Messenger RMA has been studied and developed over the last 50 years by those like Katrina Kapiko and it will turn out to transform health care in all areas of sickness most noticeably cancer cures and the brilliant thing is that it is already in all of us, it is us, and it just needs to be convinced to learn more tricks other than the ones it already does to protect us from invading pathogens.

  23. Blazer 23
    10 January 2022 at 9:02 pm

    Conspiracy theories abound about Covid ,its origin,effects and the measures to counter it.

    The one compelling fact, is that Govts of every political ideology recognise it as a real and present danger to people.

    The solutions ,the variants and the changing narratives of how to deal with this virus are legitimate cause for concern.

    Does anyone trust big pharma these days?

    They don't trust politicians.

    Where does that leave us?

    Personally I got dble vaxxed and are extremely underwhelmed by the ongoing evidence that it was in any way worthwhile.

    Yes I am still…alive.

  24. weston 24
    10 January 2022 at 9:32 pm

    Bill hints at dark days ahead maybe they will pan out maybe not and personally i just hope our health "experts " have got it right in including kids in the vax program and it doesnt hurt them anymore than i .The digital thing though i think is much more pernicious if thats the right word and i,d hate to think we all embraced the tec so much that we did away with cash for example entirely .Imagine queueing at the supermarket cause theres a pandemic and supply chain problems have caused food shortages not at all now an unthinkable proposition .Then add to that a virus or deliberate hack into the servers that control visa or an innumerable amount of other cards again not that much of a far out scenario given the cyber breeches of a number of rather large institutions last year like treasury for example , then whats next , banks? .Imagine how vulnerable how impotent we,re gonna feel waving our silly little bit of plastic when the whole systems gone down .We need to keep using cash as often and as regularly as we can and fiercely resist those seeking to undermine that ability imo its a conerstone of our independence .

  25. roblogic 25
    10 January 2022 at 9:34 pm

    Child mortality from Covid may be relatively low, but children can still spread the virus. The Omicron variant seems to have greater impact on young people than earlier variants. Vaccination is a public health response requiring the greatest possible population level immunity to prevent disease outbreaks. Therefore the more vaccinated people the better.

    12,000 deaths amongst the U18 age group is still a disaster, but since the other deaths are in the millions perhaps it seems less bad. It makes me sick to think about the idiocy and needless suffering caused by fools ignorant of basic science.

    Also, there have been no formally documented serious adverse events related to the Pfizer vaccine, in the U18 cohort.

    Sad to see such pathetic rubbish on TS.

    • Tricledrown 25.1
      11 January 2022 at 8:04 pm

      Well said roblogic.

      The anti vax websites have a tidal wave of cherry picked facts and misinformation.

      Republican senator Ron Johnston being the chief spreader of misinformation.Johnson was a vehement Trump opposed now he is the chief pyscophant.

      Johnson drags people without any proof along to his conferences claiming they have been injured by vaccines. Without a Skerit of proof for his own self agrandisement.

      Washington Post looked into his claims about Maday Degaray but when asked for proof nothing was provided. After many enquiries.

  26. locus 26
    10 January 2022 at 10:04 pm

    People arguing that civil liberties are threatened over the requirement to carry proof of vaccination is really bizarre overkill, given that we carry passports, drivers’ licences, and an array of credit and store cards which hold vastly more information about us than a proof of vaccination.

    People arguing that their liberties are at risk because they aren't permitted to do some jobs without having a vaccine shows incredible selfishness. So many antivaxxers show a complete disregard of, and cruelty towards the thousands of vulnerable people of all ages whose lives are at serious risk from Covid and who should not have to have contact with people who are unvaccinated. There is a multitude of studies that now show people who are unvaccinated are more infectious, and for longer, when they have Covid than those who are vaccinated and have Covid.

    People who completely ignore studies that show vaccination is limiting the spread of Covid, and that Covid vaccination is protecting our hospitals and health workers from being buried in an avalanche of Covid cases (there's proportionately way higher incidence of hospitalisation of the unvaccinated), are in my view, brainwashed.

    What is unsurprising is the high correlation between antivaxxers and anti mask wearers all dredging up outdated singular and non peer reviewed 'studies' to support their reckons.

    People arguing that Covid vaccination should not be given to children, are seriously endangering children's health. This antivaxxer brigade who want us to try some medieval Covid herd immunity experiment with our children are fundamentally mistaken.

    There is a vast array of peer reviewed studies showing that the Pfizer vaccine is effective in preventing serious complications and the severity of Covid symptoms. Some of these studies have been linked to in this thread. The CDC reports 8 million children in the US in the 5-12 year old age group have been vaccinated – with 2 deaths relating to vaccination complications. By contrast there is CDC data showing that there are more than 47 children in the 5-12 year old age group per million who have died directly from Covid or from the serious complications of Covid impacting children with manageable illnesses and conditions like diabetes.

    People who argue against Covid vaccination of children aged 5-12 are completely blind to multiple studies showing efficacy. They utterly reject any kind of scientific peer-reviewed evidence because they have an unshakeable confirmation bias. The Covid antivaccination arguments are always based on spurious evidence, and like all conspiracy theories, are repeated often in the most toxic unscientific and opinionated echo chambers.

    And what about the latest figures from the US showing 10% of all new Covid cases are now children? And what about the US frontline doctors and nurses who are now having to treat long Covid in 7% of all children who get Covid?

    I have no truck with people suggesting we should experiment on our children, by not giving them a Covid vaccination. And then what? Let them suffer? Argue that all children will only have 'mild' symptoms? It is absolutely proven that Covid vaccination reduces the severity of symptoms and hospitalisation rate.

    There will of course be squeals of indignation, obfuscation and 'I've done my research' statements from all the antivaxxers about this comment, but frankly I’m fed-up with their disregard and lack of consideration for the health of others (including children and health workers).

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 26.1
      10 January 2022 at 10:20 pm

      Yep. NSW hospitals are overwhelmed with covid patients – nearly all are unvaccinated (stats here).

      Must be super frustrating being an exhausted health worker, knowing that roughly 70% of the people you are treating, don't need to be there.

      The situation is dire for frontline workers who are working up to 18 hours a day to keep up with the surging demand as COVID-19 infections continue to place pressure on healthcare systems.

      • Blazer 26.1.1
        11 January 2022 at 8:09 am

        Those are the best stats by far that I have seen as to how effective vaccination is.

        I was beginning to think it could be described as 'results may….vary'.

    • Shanreagh 26.2
      10 January 2022 at 11:24 pm

      My Dad used to have a saying about 'arguing the toss'. I see it is defined as 'dispute a decision or choice already made.'

      1 The decision to have vax passes has already been made. It has been implemented.

      2 The decision on the vaccination of children has already been made, it starts next week. It was made on the basis of risk, need and the results of scientific work

      3 Masks we wear them

      What is the point about arguing the toss about things we cannot change, they're done, gone, we look forward to the next thing on the horizon

      In time we may be able to feed in to a review of things that went well or not.

      I am pretty happy with the Govt's Covid response, historic and on going. But Covid is not all that is going on in our world, in NZ.

      After the break, and our politicians deserve a break, we need to keep the pressure on about housing, about what the world will look like, climate change, regen ag

      Arguing over and over about things where decisions have been made instead of being future focussed seems a bit pointless to me. People have/are having vaccines, for some front facing jobs it is a requirement, vaccine passports are a go, traffic light levels are the way we do things now, masks are worn. We don't have to relitigate this stuff.

      If it is important to us then we now know something more about our limits and we can look at our political parties now and in the future and find those that maybe more in tune with the knowledge we have of ourselves and our view of how it has affected our society.

      I have a view that constant talking etc about issues once they are passed or such that we cannot change does more harm than good.

    • Shanreagh 26.3
      10 January 2022 at 11:26 pm

      Excellent Locus. Thank you.smiley

    • Blazer 26.4
      11 January 2022 at 8:02 am

      'People who argue against Covid vaccination of children aged 5-12 are completely blind to multiple studies showing efficacy.'

      Where is this info?

  27. weka 27
    11 January 2022 at 12:06 am

    Meanwhile, from July 2021 piece, a NZ epidemiologist and a NZ paediatrician studying child epidemiology, wrote about the range of risks posed to children who contract covid. They also said then that we should be cautious about vaccinating kids, and should use NZ's advantage to weigh the evidence on how best to protect NZ children.

    https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/07/28/dont-underestimate-covid-in-children.html

    Summary,

    Contrary to Plan B claims, the risk to children is not miniscule.

    Death from Covid-19 among children is thankfully rare compared with adults. A large systematic review by Kitano and colleagues found the case fatality rate in children, that is the proportion of children dying due to PCR-positive Covid-19 infection, ranged from one in 10,000 in high-income countries, to two in 1000 in low- and middle-income countries. Among children, infants under one year old sustained the highest case fatality rates from Covid-19, reaching one in 100 among Covid-19 positive infants in low- and middle-income countries.

    Children should not be treated as a ‘block’, different ages have different risks

    We also need to fit our strategy to the unique population profile of children here in Aotearoa, and to our local healthcare capacity.

    Reducing ‘the burden of hospitalisation’ is a worthy goal, NZ’s success at vaccinating against and reducing the hospitalisation from rotovirus in children is given as an example. This is good for kids (and 85% reduction) and hospital systems

    Accepting even a 1 percent hospitalisation rate for Covid-19 in children would mean needing to absorb large numbers of hospitalisations on top of existing health care shortages. We need to be very cautious about accepting preventable hospitalisations in children.

    Which kids will be affected will be unfair. Children with co-morbidities will be disproportionately affected. NZ has a higher proportion of children with obesity and co-morbidities, meaning we may have increased rates of hospitalisation. Māori, Pasifica, and children from poor households are more susceptible to severe illness

    Allowing Covid-19 to spread unfettered would disproportionately affect these groups as well as the families who would take time off work to care for them.

    And finally, because nary a mention in the post, children can get long covid.

    Thirdly, there is ongoing uncertainty regarding longer-term symptoms of Covid-19 infection in children, referred to as “long Covid”. UK government data shows 7.4 percent of children aged two-11 years and 8.2 percent of children aged 12-16 have ongoing symptoms 12 weeks after infection (data collected from parents’ self-report so we need to allow for uncertainty). But whatever the exact figures, the NHS has had to establish 15 long Covid medical clinics for children to manage clinical demand. We need more data to understand this phenomenon better, and studies are underway.

    Early reports of cognitive difficulties following Covid-19 infection (‘brain fog’) are concerning in terms of potential impacts on the developing brain. As new variants continue to emerge, there is also ongoing uncertainty regarding how any new variants may affect children.

  28. tsmithfield 28
    11 January 2022 at 6:58 am

    While I think Bill's post is a bit over-conspiratorial, I think he does make some good points:

    Firstly, the rate of hospitalisation of unvaxxed children under the age of 5 (who are all unvaxxed by necessity) is only 4 in 100000, even with the advent of Omicron.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-09/covid-19-vaccinations-children-hospitalisations-us/100746416

    A cursory glance at the medsafe recording of severe covid reactions would suggest that the risk of a severe vaccine reaction is much higher than that.

    So, if it is true that vaccination risks are higher than severe covid risks in children, then parents are being asked to put their own children at unnecessary risk for the sake of the herd rather than their children.

    The second point is that I don't think it takes a grand conspiracy for the type of society, that Bill describes, to emerge.

    I think this type of scenario can be an unintended consequence of the reactions of governments to the extreme circumstances they find themselves in. And when we give up our freedoms for the sake of a crisis, it is not a given that we will always get those freedoms back.

    Also, due to the fear of the situation we face, we have all willingly given up freedoms to the state, that, if demanded in other circumstances, would cause many of us to protest on the streets.

    • Koreropono 28.1
      11 January 2022 at 7:28 am

      YES!

    • Nic the NZer 28.2
      11 January 2022 at 7:58 am

      The safety reports are certainly worth reading. But I don't really see a basis in there for expecting elevated adverse reactions based on the vaccine either. All the adverse events of special interest are occuring at fractions of the expected general population hospitalisation rate for those conditions. Assuming the base rates are reasonable this will be because there are many such events which happen but do not result in a vaccine safety report. Deaths are similar, fractions of the general population level.

      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-38.asp

      Can you explain how you reached that conclusion?

      • tsmithfield 28.2.1
        11 January 2022 at 10:27 am

        In the small study referenced by Medsafe with respect to children:

        https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107456

        There were adverse reactions reported at a slightly higher rate than the placebo group.

        Given the size of the sample group, there is nothing to suggest that the vaccine is less harmful than children catching Covid itself at a hospitalisation rate of four in 100000 as I referenced above.

        • Nic the NZer 28.2.1.1
          11 January 2022 at 12:27 pm

          Thanks.

          Its worth knowing however that study attributes none of the severe adverse reactions to the vaccine after investigation. There were some discontinued participants on first dose but none of those reactions were particularly health threatening. This only puts the adverse reaction rate for this age cohort lower than the study could identify.

          • tsmithfield 28.2.1.1.1
            11 January 2022 at 1:03 pm

            I think the issue is more to do with the size of the study more than anything else.

            Too fewer participants to generalise to the larger population I think. And that is referenced under Medsafe as justfication for the safety of the vaccine, whereas the realworld evidence is that the risk to children isn't very high anyway.

            So, which ever way it is looked at, the justification for vaccinating children is more to do with protecting the herd rather than protecting the children.

        • Tricledrown 28.2.1.2
          11 January 2022 at 7:51 pm

          Looking at NZ health statistics for younger people under 50 make up the largest chort children are admitted to hospital at higher rates than those over 60yrs by a wide margin proving vaccines work .

          While the hospitalisation rates for over 60's is low the mortality rate is much higher

          .

          Anyone who looks at theNZ MOH stats will see the truth about the efficacy of vaccines.

  29. Blazer 29
    11 January 2022 at 8:15 am

    There is certainly no altruism by big pharma pertaining to the pandemic.

    Govt negotiators seem to accept all their demands.

    https://youtu.be/nYIJxoh7gqw

  30. Tricledrown 30
    11 January 2022 at 11:54 am

    Because the Internet is a wash with conspiracy theories.

    Polio Has been virtually wiped out smallpox etc since the1950's.

    10'sBillions of doses of vaccines have administered on nearly every human.

    The upside 100'smillions of lives saved and saved from deformities and ongoing health problems.

    The downside overpopulation.

    Maybe that's what's behind the antivax Qanon brigade want the worlds population to collapse.

    Qanon claims Bill Gates is spreading free vaccines in Africa to sterilise the population with micromachines that control them to become communist or antfascists.

  31. Booker 31
    11 January 2022 at 1:55 pm

    Well to say this post is disappointing is an understatement. The Standard is often a refuge of sane, well-done commentary on political and social problems affecting NZ (and sometimes, overseas). This post is like the entry passport to a conspiracy rabbit hole.

    First, there's the insinuation (or would that be outright accusation?) that the Chinese government is using data obtained from a Pfizer/Alipay collaboration to roll out it's traffic light health code system. That's patently false. The reason the phone traffic light system was rolled out so quickly into the pandemic was because cell service providers already know where you are, where you have been, and who else has been in proximity to you. The traffic light system just makes visible, in the form of a code, information already collected by phone providers. As Snowdon and others have already pointed out, repeatedly, computers and mobile phones are effectively synonymous with tracking and digital traces left in the form of metadata and cookies. The government has *absolutely no need* to collaborate with Pfizer to roll that system out!

    Next, there's this line: "The response to Covid is not about Public Health. The response to Covid is about promoting a politics of trauma to facilitate obeisance." Don't be an idiot. The response to COVID is precisely about public health. Maybe you haven't noticed, but millions of people around the world have died from it, and it's contagious. If responding to that threat isn't public health, what is it sherlock? Maybe it's just that NZ has been spared the worst, so people haven't had to see, in person, the effects of this, but the author should really take a look at the horror stories out of Europe and US – families where multiple members are no longer with them, or estimates of thousands of children left orphans after both their parents have died. Stopping that happening is public health, genius.

    This post just seems to highlight an issue that comes up time and again in dealing with conspiracy theories: people live in a society where it seems that we've dominated the planet, have control over pretty much everything, and therefore they come to believe that when something bad happens, it must be happening because someone decided to make it that way. The reality is nothing of the sort. We are still very much at the mercy of nature, be it in the form of climate disasters, earthquakes or – in this case – the emergence of a new virus. To make matters worse, our societies are obviously far from perfect. Capitalism does have a lot to answer for, as does basic human greed, and the way in which political influence and legal frameworks can be constructed to enrich corporations and those in spheres of power. And yes, there is definite fact-based debates to be had about the profits that Pfizer have been making and the dubious terms and conditions that governments have signed up to on their vaccine agreements.

    But none of this alters the fact that COVID-19 has killed a lot of people. Pfizer and other pharmaceutical companies have made effective vaccines, and from that they've made money. Do I like that? Of course not. Do I wish we had the ability for nationally-funded, rapid vaccine development that could distribute solutions at cost? You bet. Do I wish that people had just stopped travelling and stayed away from each other earlier in the pandemic so that it would die out without the need for vaccines, and without the virus becoming endemic? Sure do.

    But this post sees all these effects and assumes there must have been a guiding human hand behind all of it. The purpose of the pandemic is obedience to big tech and government? Get real, everyone's willfully using big tech products, they don't need a pandemic to help, and if you weren't already obeying the governments rules, also called laws, before the pandemic, then you could be thrown in jail and have all your freedoms taken away. And every society in the world has a system like that.

    The last point in the post is about children and vaccines. There's no getting around the fact that part of vaccination drives is altruistic – even if you're at low risk, you're encouraged to get a vaccination to prevent you being a carrier and passing a virus on to people who would suffer more than you. Sometimes it's the case that younger people stand little to gain – e.g. flu vaccines – but sometimes it's the reverse that children are at higher risk – e.g. polio, measles, rubella, etc. Are children less likely to have problems from COVID? Sure, but you can also bet that schools – situations where children with no previous exposure to the novel coronavirus, spending all day in cramped, poorly ventilated spaces – will be transmission hotspots in the absence of vaccination. Furthermore, they're places where kids from vastly different backgrounds congregate together, acting as epidemiological links between families that would otherwise have little to do with each other. The moment an outbreak happens in a school is the moment a virus spreads widely around a community. To make matters worse, just because children are at low risk doesn't mean no risk – kids have died from this. Of course governments and public health officials are going to want to reduce the risk of those kinds of events. It isn't a conspiracy.

    Honestly, I understand The Standard has a variety of authors, and tries to publish differing opinions on current events, but this post is a step too far. The Standard has been a balanced place for coronavirus reporting so far, but this is really dredging the gutter.

    • Ed 31.1
      11 January 2022 at 2:08 pm

      Well to say this post is disappointing is an understatement….. This post is like the entry passport to a conspiracy rabbit hole.

      Honestly, I understand The Standard has a variety of authors, and tries to publish differing opinions on current events, but this post is a step too far. The Standard has been a balanced place for coronavirus reporting so far, but this is really dredging the gutter.

      Totally agree with your sentiments.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 31.2
      11 January 2022 at 4:11 pm

      yes Well said, thank you – strange Standard days.

    • weka 31.3
      11 January 2022 at 6:25 pm

      Honestly, I understand The Standard has a variety of authors, and tries to publish differing opinions on current events, but this post is a step too far. The Standard has been a balanced place for coronavirus reporting so far, but this is really dredging the gutter.

      There's no editorial control here beyond the general kaupapa of the site. Authors can put up what they like. Very occasionally this causes problems and we have to talk about things in the back end, and ultimately the Trust/Sysop decides what happens, but generally the responses to posts tend to do the heavy lifting on keeping the site on track.

      I think there are all sorts of problems with the post, but as you say, most of the pandemic posts here have been more even handed.

    • Bill 31.4
      11 January 2022 at 7:09 pm

      First, there's the insinuation (or would that be outright accusation?) that the Chinese government is using data obtained from a Pfizer/Alipay collaboration to roll out it's traffic light health code system. That's patently false.

      Take the 'patently false' feed of info from the Pfizer/Alipay to Chinese authorities up with the NYT (article linked in post)

      Next, there's this line: "The response to Covid is not about Public Health. The response to Covid is about promoting a politics of trauma to facilitate obeisance." Don't be an idiot. The response to COVID is precisely about public health.

      And yet not one person could provide a medical reason for vaccine passports. Can you?

      situations where children with no previous exposure to the novel coronavirus, spending all day in cramped, poorly ventilated spaces – will be transmission hotspots in the absence of vaccination.

      That seemingly wasn't a problem in the immediate aftermath of the first lock-down. (What changed?) And children, contrary to what you've written, are more than just"disease vectors" requiring neutralisation.

      I'm sure you'll love my next post.

      • McFlock 31.4.1
        11 January 2022 at 7:35 pm

        And yet not one person could provide a medical reason for vaccine passports. Can you?

        I tried, but after roughly two years of pandemic and a year of covid vaccines you still don't understand what the word "efficacy" means in relation to a vaccine, and it's kinda central to the "medical reason".

        • Bill 31.4.1.1
          11 January 2022 at 11:32 pm

          The question is around the issuance of vaccine passports. Efficacy of vaccines is a red herring. What is the medical rationale for them?

          Variously, government has claimed it was to protect the vaccinated people from unvaccinated people and then, apparently to protect unvaccinated people from vaccinated people.

          Neither claim stacks up.

          • weka 31.4.1.1.1
            11 January 2022 at 11:49 pm

            vaccine passes limit access by unvaxxed people to situations where spread is more likely. Because unvaxxed people are more likely to be carrying covid than vaxxed people, they pose a higher risk.

            Vaccine efficacy appears to be central to this because you appear to believe that vaccines don't work.

            • McFlock 31.4.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 12:11 am

              Exactly.

              They have a higher chance of having it before they walk into the bar (which is a hazard for everyone in the bar), and a higher chance of catching it if someone else in the bar has it but they don't (and then they can spread it to other people elsewhere, keeping the outbreak going).

              And the quantified odds of those higher chances are indicated via what we call "vaccine efficacy".

              • weka …
                12 January 2022 at 9:51 am

                I struggled to follow some of the deeper stats explanation but even I can understand this. I think the reason I can is because I accept the facts at face value rather than starting from a particular position. Although I guess I start from the position that vaccines generally work, and that the covid vaccines including pfizer, have at least some degree of efficacy that affects spread (and the issue is how much and for how long in indiviuals, and then how that plays out in the real world amongst groups of people).

            • UncookedSelachimorpha 31.4.1.1.1.2
              12 January 2022 at 11:37 am

              "Because unvaxxed people are more likely to be carrying covid than vaxxed people, they pose a higher risk."

              There is also the other side of the coin – keeping unvaxxed people out of spreading situations also helps by reducing spread of infection to the unvaxxed – who are much more likely to have a bad outcome, use health resources and will spread it more after they get it.

            • lprent 31.4.1.1.1.3
              20 January 2022 at 2:37 pm

              Because unvaxxed people are more likely to be carrying covid than vaxxed people, they pose a higher risk.

              As importantly, they are far far more susceptible to being infected, more likely to be hospitalised, more likely to die, probably more likely to get long covid, and far far more likely to become a covid tax burden on other taxpayers.

              There are some bloody good reasons for society to minimise their exposure to a large community of the vaccinated potential carriers. Most people I know who aren't getting vaccinated are pretty aware of the risks, and modify their behaviour accordingly. However there are small minority who simply don't appear to have much social responsibility or have poor impulse control.

              Not a lot different from the way we treat children with things like alcohol, weapons or driving. It is unlawful for them to purchase alcohol, or have others to buy it for them. They are far more likely to have medical problems that cost society.

              It was pretty noticeable in history that the laws about alcohol consumption by minors arose about the same time that public health systems started to get widespread.

      • Tricledrown 31.4.2
        11 January 2022 at 8:14 pm

        Your next post will be misinformation from another antivax site.

        Without out any editing it will take anyone 30 seconds to fact check and you will come up with a new conspiracy for the same heat and repeat.

        No ivermectin today

        Tomorrow is ivermectin on the list

      • Shanreagh 31.4.3
        11 January 2022 at 8:35 pm

        'Far out' (I hearken back to my teenage expressions in times of incredulity at what I am reading) many of us have talked about the use of the vaccine passports all the way through this discussion – in terms of limiting disease spread, keeping people safe and because they are a record that we have had a series of vaccinations ie efficacy and you still belabour this 'no medical reason for passports'.

        I guess it won't be long before you say that there no medical reason for having the vaccinations for Covid19, for anything, because like the RW memes in the US say 'I trust my immune system'

        This whole topic has been done to death. So please not another Covid post, please. smiley

      • Bryan 31.4.4
        11 January 2022 at 11:00 pm

        Have you been invited to contribute to the BFD or as a special guest on with Billy te K ?

      • weka 31.4.5
        11 January 2022 at 11:04 pm

        That seemingly wasn't a problem in the immediate aftermath of the first lock-down. (What changed?)

        We eliminated covid, and then later delta arrived.

        • Bill 31.4.5.1
          11 January 2022 at 11:28 pm

          Don't know if the point is being deliberately sidestepped here. The contention from government and Public Health officials was that covid posed no threat to children.

          What changed in their thinking? Because serious co-morbidity aside, Covid is still not a threat to children, and yet here we are insisting they roll up their sleeves or face social ostracization – a fcken huge leap.

          • weka 31.4.5.1.1
            11 January 2022 at 11:46 pm

            Novel virus, it takes time to learn things about it, thinking develops over time, gets adjusted, new studies reveal nuance or emerging dynamics. Understanding and knowledge evolve.

            I've posted elsewhere in the thread why NZ epidemiologists consider children at risk.

            • Bill 31.4.5.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 11:24 am

              I've posted elsewhere in the thread why NZ epidemiologists consider children at risk.

              Where? Children are no more at risk now than they were previously. The flu presented a greater risk to children than Delta. Both the BBC and the NYT reported on the astonishingly low risk factor for children and provided links to research.

              And besides, I'm asking about the change that occurred in the minds of politicians and their advisors, such that we went from "children first!" when many of us were still hooked into the notion that Covid was an incredibly serious threat (back when we were being told people died on the streets in China and the mortality rate would be a huge percentage of infected people).

              ….to "masks on public transport – but not for children", such that buses were crammed with unmasked school kids and 'faceless' adult passengers

              ….to, all over fives to be injected (with a single injection of a drug that even Pfizer's own literature states does not work at x2 injection for Omicron) and issued some form of a vaccine passport in order that society can still be accessed by them (e.g. – extra curricular school activities/ public utilities)

              • weka …
                12 January 2022 at 12:07 pm

                Yeah, it's almost like medical and public health had to learn about this novel virus and how it works in human bodies and in populations. Over time. And then adjust responses based on new and emerging information and knowledge.

                I get that you don't understand how this works, but it's logical and consistent (even where it's flawed and there are aspects of I disagree with).

                Lots of assertions in your comment not backed up. Here's the actual epidemiologists' perspective,

                .https://thestandard.org.nz/time/#comment-1850148

                • weka …
                  12 January 2022 at 12:10 pm

                  it's not that you disagree with public health, it's that you don't understand a number of the concepts and are arguing as if you do. McFlock pointed this out to you re efficacy. I'm pointing it out here about why the pandemic response evolves over time. Underpinning that still seems to be a lack of understanding of how public health works. It's not a set of rigid stats taken off some papers.

                  • Bill …
                    12 January 2022 at 12:36 pm

                    Thanks for the link.

                    It states that children are likely to suffer only mild symptoms. Others can argue over he fatality rate they state 1 in 10 000, against the BBC report of 2 in 1 000 000, because regardless, it's all "long shot" numbers. (Hmm…and it’s not for me or you or the government to pre-empt anyone’s informed consent)

                    But again. What is the medical rationale for digital vaccine passports?

                    We all know that m-RNA injections do not prevent the spread of Covid, and (according to Pfizer talking of the currently configured m-RNA injection) two doses of BNT162b2 may not be sufficient to protect against infection with the Omicron variant.

                    But whether it was 99% effective, or 60% effective at preventing infection, there's no medical reason for the deployment of vaccine passports.

                • Bill …
                  12 January 2022 at 12:39 pm

                  Lots of assertions in your comment not backed up

                  For example?

                  The BBC link (though not the NYT piece) is in the main body of the post.

                  Children returning to school before everyone else was out lock-down was the reality (I remember being outraged at the time and commenting here to that effect)

                  I’ve previously linked to the fear mongering “people dying on the streets” reportage that many seem to have forgotten about.

                  I sat on those buses crammed with unmasked schoolkids, while I had to wear one as a ‘condition of service’ so to speak.

          • KJT 31.4.5.1.2
            12 January 2022 at 8:39 am

            Parents, or Grandparents, unable to work, or dead, because their child bought covid home from school is "not a threat to children"?

            How asinine can you get?

            • Bill 31.4.5.1.2.1
              12 January 2022 at 11:27 am

              That you're viewing children primarily as "disease vectors" or "bio-hazards" to be neutralised (you're not giving any thought to a risk/benefit analysis over injections for them), speaks volumes.

              • KJT …
                12 January 2022 at 1:20 pm

                Bollocks. The risk to children of being orphans, or poor, far out weighs any risk, which is almost nil, from vaccinations.

                My stance is entirely predicated on real risk analysis.

                Yours is based on listening to too much bullshit.

                • Bill …
                  12 January 2022 at 1:29 pm

                  My stance is entirely predicated on real risk analysis

                  The risk to who? Because it seems from all you're saying that the risk to the child is secondary. There is a 0.05% infection mortality rate among the working age population. But "orphans"?

                  What about the Maddie De Garay's of this world? How many of them are there to be in order that parents or grandparents might get covid (because we're all going to get it by and by) from someone other than a child?

          • Tricledrown 31.4.5.1.3
            12 January 2022 at 9:43 am

            Bill its voluntary for under 12s

            Looking at stats in NZ Under 60's make up the largest cohort of infections by a long way

            Maori and Pacific Islands people are 4 to 5 times more likely to be infected,hospitalized and die

            Also this cohort has a higher morbidity rate in the younger population 10 years younger on average than European.

            Looking at MOH stats for NZ not countries with rampant infections most people getting hospitalized are under 60 by a wide margin the number of children hospitalized in NZ is alarming considering we have only a small outbreak.If we had a widespread outbreak those children won't get the treatment that make your statistics look good.The US where 49 children per million are dying as a previous poster pointed out.

            I BILL you are still pushing antivax misinformation.

            From Ivermectin to out right lies about the Japanese govt using ivermectin(When in reality Japan has a very high rate of immunisation they are used to wearing masks and follow health orders being a compliant population)

            The yesterday you posted a conspiracy theorists bs. Senator Ron Johnson rated as the worst conspiracy theorist in the Republican party.

            Time to give it up.
            [That rant of outright lies and smears just got you banned. Both Red and I have previously warned you about your behaviour. Good bye.] – B

            • Robert Guyton 31.4.5.1.3.1
              12 January 2022 at 11:46 am

              Wwwwwhat?? Wow! Wowsers!

              Rein it in, Bill.

              That's nuts.

              • Bill …
                12 January 2022 at 12:15 pm

                Any @#*! accusing me of being "anti-vax" is going down the same route. Also. Anyone stupid enough to question moderation risks the same fate.

                So now that's clear, moving on…

          • Tricledrown 31.4.5.1.4
            12 January 2022 at 9:51 am

            Bill check out the number of children in hospitals in NZ on MOH site easily accessible.

            No trouble for someone like you who elevates trash conspiracy theories out of the dark swamp of the far rights multitude of misinformation.

            Likewise you seem to have elevated your highshool education into becoming a medical expert.not.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 31.4.5.1.5
            12 January 2022 at 11:39 am

            Yeah, that's right Bill. F#ck those kids with comorbidities.

            Sydney 3yo with rare genetic condition becomes youngest to die with COVID-19 in NSW

            • Bill 31.4.5.1.5.1
              12 January 2022 at 12:03 pm

              Pretty toxic insinuation there Uncooked. Link to a single comment where I have said vaccinations should not be offered to people with co-morbidities…

              (There are no such comments)

              • weka …
                12 January 2022 at 12:29 pm

                vaccination of whole populations protects people with co-morbidities. Honestly, this is a fundamental reason why we vaccinate whole populations.

                It's particularly important with vaccines that don't provide high protection in individuals eg the covid vaccines. This has been explained a lot, I don't know why you still don't get it.

                Advocating for vaccination of vulnerable people instead of whole populations is basically saying fuck those vulnerable people, they can look after themselves. That approach is more risky than vaccinating whole populations.

                It also says fuck those vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated. Population vax protects them.

                • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                  12 January 2022 at 1:01 pm

                  Thanks Weka, that is my point exactly. Population immunity* protects the vulnerable.

                  I allowed myself an excessively emotional response, sorry, but I get sick of people chucking the vulnerable under the bus, and also making out that comorbidities are rare (and someone else's problem) , in fact huge swathes of the population has one or more.

                  *and no, I am not meaning "immunity" means perfect immunity only. Partial also helps. A popular conflation with the anti crowd…

                • Bill …
                  12 January 2022 at 1:09 pm

                  vaccination of whole populations protects people with co-morbidities. Honestly, this is a fundamental reason why we vaccinate whole populations.

                  Not if leaky vaccines are the tool being deployed. There is absolutely no way to vaccinate widespread viral infection into oblivion with leaky vaccines. Flu vaccinations are targeted in such a way as to protect vulnerable people. Flu vaccinations, much like Covid vaccinations are leaky. That is why they are targeted.

                  And that's before getting into the awful risks known about distributing a leaky vaccine on a universal basis. (Want to roll the dice and see if we can encourage a viral environment that will give us a killer mutation? Pick up that universal distribution of a leaky vaccine and see how the numbers fall)

                  Advocating for vaccination of vulnerable people instead of whole populations is basically saying fuck those vulnerable people

                  Is that your general take every flu season when flu vaccines are deployed on a targeted basis?

    • Shanreagh 31.5
      11 January 2022 at 8:36 pm

      Great post Booker. Thank you.

    • KJT 31.6
      12 January 2022 at 8:48 am

      Always good when someone expesses what I'm thinking, but expresses it more clearly than I can at the moment.

      I lean towards the Free speech side of things, allowing fools to "out themselves" is often the "best disinfectant". Driving conspiracy theorists and twits underground just feeds their Martyr complexes.

      However too many think that "Free speech" like refusing vaccinations, should come without responsibility. Including the responsibility to inform yourself, to avoid recycling bullshit.

  32. Robert Guyton 32
    11 January 2022 at 6:12 pm

    Thank you, Booker.

  33. The Chairman 33
    12 January 2022 at 1:35 pm

    Hi Bill

    I sense some here are having trouble envisioning "what else might tomorrow bring" in regards to the vaccine passports.

    Therefore, I thought I'd post this short (17min) clip below which helps illustrate that in which you are portraying.

    • Bill 33.1
      12 January 2022 at 2:12 pm

      That was absolutely brilliant and on the money. Thank you.

      Now, if people can just delete vaccine passports from their phones and persuade others to follow suit instead of running interference that would defend their use under the current spurious banner of "Public Health" …

      -sigh – I naively thought I could generate a sensible discussion here, but I'm realising too many people are sunk so deep in the official narrative, that even the most huge and obvious contradictions within the narrative are either blithely ignored or waved aside.

      Hopefully a few people will watch that vid and shift their position.

      • The Chairman 33.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 2:51 pm

        Yes, it's a very thought provoking clip leaving viewers with a lot to ponder.

        And yes, hopefully it will help shine more light allowing more to be aware of the potential dark future we face.

        As the clip above alludes, look how far the world has changed in just 2 years. Rights are becoming privileges. New Zealanders are now segregated. Resulting in dividing families and the wider public in general.

        Unfortunately, people seem to be captured by the shock doctrine

        • Robert Guyton 33.1.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 2:52 pm

          New Zealanders are now segregated…

          …into those who are licensed to drive, and those who are not!

          The horror!

          • Shanreagh 33.1.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 5:56 pm

            Just thinking about this 'quelle horreur'

            This little green thing has been in my wallet for a zillion million years and all this time it has been an instrument to potentially divide me from my fellows.

            Perhaps the answer could be that people could get their licences and then it would not have that impact……exempting all under 16 year olds though.

          • mauī 33.1.1.1.2
            12 January 2022 at 8:47 pm

            Unlicensed drivers can still participate in everyday New Zealand public life. Unlicensed drivers can still drive even, at their own risk…

            Unvaxxed can't participate or are severely restricted in taking part in New Zealand public life. That to my mind is segregation.

            • Shanreagh 33.1.1.1.2.1
              12 January 2022 at 9:03 pm

              You have your views and I have mine. There are very few that qualify for an exemption on health grounds, less than 100 the initial views were. We now have two vaccines so those who were uneasy about the mRNA technology have a choice.

              The others who knows????????

              Many will have seduced by rubbish on the Internet and by home grown anti vax activists more's the pity. The vaccination rate is creeping up and the non vaxxed will gradually be sinking into a minority. Hopefully once the hesitant see that the vaxxed haven't grown two heads or four arms there will be more.

              Hopefully we won't have these figures/headlines

              https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/covid-patients-hospitals-intensive-care-22703781l

              https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/11/covid-omicron-variant-pfizer-cases/9165512002/

              https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257186137.html

              PS I regard the so-called ‘segregation’ as self-driven and a logical consequence of the decision making around not having the vaccine. That people are not able to go out and about and are complaining signals to me a lack of logic, sort having your cake and eating it too. Surely people should have factored the consequences into their thinking about whether to have the vaccine.

              I am all for those who have made their decisions in full knowledge of all the factors and who are getting down and seeing what their world holds for them….with a clear conscience and not moaning.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 33.1.2
        12 January 2022 at 2:53 pm

        Now, if people can just delete vaccine passports from their phones…

        Didn't put my vaccine passport on my smartphone (it's too smart – don't know what I'm doing and so don't/can't use it for calls and text messages), rather I printed the vaccine pass email attachment from my desktop and use that – no problems so far smiley

        • McFlock 33.1.2.1
          12 January 2022 at 3:10 pm

          print it onto tinfoil, that will thwart the 5G electronic tracking 🙂

        • Dennis Frank 33.1.2.2
          12 January 2022 at 4:06 pm

          I'm with you. Did printout, cut around the thing & it fitted into my card wallet no problem. Never even thought about the digital option!

          Guess that means I'm antiquated, huh? No worries. 🙃

          • Shanreagh 33.1.2.2.1
            12 January 2022 at 5:38 pm

            I got mine laminated to give it a bit more protection.

            • Anne 33.1.2.2.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 9:11 pm

              Me too.

              A sibling shot me down in flames because I paid twice as much to get mine done than he paid to get his done. Difference is: mine works, his doesn't.

              And another point, the vaccine card is much faster to process than the phone version. By the time the owner has messed around trying to find their digital version I'm out of sight. Already in aisle two. 😎

              • McFlock …
                12 January 2022 at 10:16 pm

                I'm seriously considering printing and laminating mine even though it's on my phone, for that exact reason

      • Shanreagh 33.1.3
        12 January 2022 at 5:20 pm

        My vaccine cert is like Drowsy's and Dennis’ and I carry it in my wallet. I am not going to do anything with it.

        What I am going to do though is get one of the new style of hat that will be made by Tiwai ….. and i shall wear it while reading this anti public health, anti vax, anti mandate posts. It may protect me from retrograde scare propaganda.

        I figure the covid vaccine's 5G capability and the anti computer virus protections that come with it will help on one level, but for retrograde or 'legacy' systems such as Big Brother and 'everyone is watching you', old style tech such as the tinfoil hat may be useful. Sort of belt and braces type approach.

        As it will be using foil from Tiwai I figure I am playing a part in using things produced in NZ.

        • Bill 33.1.3.1
          12 January 2022 at 5:32 pm

          I don't do anti public health, anti vax posts. Nor anti public health or anti vax comments. Don't even have any anti public health or anti vax exchanges in private.

          But if a Tiwai hat will help you see those things (assuming that's what you intend to see), then all power to you.

          • Shanreagh 33.1.3.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 5:46 pm

            I don't do anti public health, anti vax posts. Nor anti public health or anti vax comments. Don't even have any anti public health or anti vax exchanges in private.

            Except, 'and let me count the ways'…..

            you are questioning the rollout of the vaccine, a public health measure

            you are questioning the type of vaccine used, a public health measure

            you are questioning the need and rationale for the vaccine passport, a public health measure

            you are helping bring out scare tactics such as tracking with the vaccine certificate and this may help stymie rollout of the vaccines, the uptake of the vaccine passports so indirectly a public health measure.

    • McFlock 33.2
      12 January 2022 at 2:32 pm

      I actually watched that. I want my 17 minutes back.

      • The Chairman 33.2.1
        12 January 2022 at 2:59 pm

        Don't be so short-sighted. At the least, you would have attained the other sides perspective in regards to vaccine passports.

        • Robert Guyton 33.2.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 3:03 pm

          Do you think we haven't considered "the other side of vaccine passports" since they were proposed (or in fact, a long time before that)?

          Do you think we're unthinking around these issues?

          • Bill 33.2.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 4:12 pm

            Do you think we haven't considered "the other side of vaccine passports" since they were proposed (or in fact, a long time before that)?

            Given that you (collective nay sayers) offered not a skerrick of substantive argument against the main thrust of the post that might have informed by supposed "aforethought", but instead genuflexed to, well…deflection, dismissal and school yard levels of attempted finger pointy ridicule, I'd say that's a reasonable assumption on your part.

          • Anne 33.2.1.1.2
            12 January 2022 at 9:18 pm

            The other side of my vaccine passport is blank. Rather like the inside of the heads of the anti-vaxxers.

        • McFlock 33.2.1.2
          12 January 2022 at 3:05 pm

          But I already knew lots of them were bonkers.

          edit to expand:
          The bullshit contained in that video was nothing new. An idyllic fantasy of ‘Western’ historical progression being threatened by a totalitarian global conspiracy to secretly control us, but if we all fight for freedom we can be heroes.

          • The Chairman 33.2.1.2.1
            12 January 2022 at 4:34 pm

            But I already knew lots of them were bonkers.

            Are you claiming people would have to be "bonkers" to see a potential threat in the vaccine passports? And how once widely accepted, could be sinisterly expanded upon by those who see the pandemic as representing a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reset the world?

            • McFlock 33.2.1.2.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 4:53 pm

              potential threat? Nah.

              Make a 17 minute video filled with stock footage and hyperbole based on a vaccine QR code? At least a bit bonkers.

              And how once widely accepted, could be sinisterly expanded upon by those who see the pandemic as representing a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reset the world?

              Yup, totally bonkers.

              "reset the world"? to what? And if "they" can reset the world, aren't they already in charge? So what's the point?

              "Rare", as if we haven't had 5 outbreaks, terrorism, and natural disasters over the last 20 years to provide excuses for identical courses of action? There's always an excuse.

              And if they were going to do it, they wouldn't use QR codes. Requires too much active personal attention.

              • Bill …
                12 January 2022 at 5:42 pm

                You do know the "hyperbole" is already the reality for many in China, right? And you also know (because the links were in the post) that western corporations are involved in China's system of Social Credit.

                If you were interested, you'd have no problem digging up information on Aadhaar – (A Bill Gates side project when he wasn't so busy fucking WHO policy) Here's a starting point (though, to be honest, this is being provided more for others with some genuine curiosity who stumble across this comment)

                With over one billion Indians in its database, Aadhaar is the largest biometric digital ID program ever constructed. Besides serving as a portal to government services, it tracks users’ movements between cities, their employment status, and purchasing records. It is a de facto social credit system that serves as the key entry point for accessing services in India

                • McFlock …
                  12 January 2022 at 10:05 pm

                  Our vaccine pass doesn't require biometric authorisation, does it?

                  Your link clearly conflates the requirement to be vaccinated to do some things with how that requirement is verified and how that verification is reliably given to the correct person.

                  So which bit do you have a problem with in NZ?

                  Or do you simply not believe that unvaccinated people should be restricted from places where they have a higher risk of seriously infecting others and a higher risk of being seriously infected, but that's completely coincidental to your opposition to the NZ vaccine pass?

              • The Chairman …
                12 January 2022 at 6:40 pm

                "Rare" as in obtaining medical access to a large portion of the world's population perhaps?

                Yup, totally bonkers.

                Right, so you've never heard of "The Great Reset" and "building back better"?

                See link.

                • McFlock …
                  12 January 2022 at 10:14 pm

                  "Rare" as in obtaining medical access to a large portion of the world's population perhaps?

                  You think that portion should not have medical access?

                  Right, so you've never heard of "The Great Reset" and "building back better"?

                  bojo was plugging bbb at one stage wasn't he?

                  Your climate-change-denying talking head didn't strike me as being particularly believable. Some very suspiscious video cuts, in that piece. Loved the "marxism" bleating, though. And the appeal to "quiet australians" via a skynews platform – lol.

            • Shanreagh 33.2.1.2.1.2
              12 January 2022 at 5:52 pm

              Does this threat apply only to those carrying vaccine certifcates on their phones so those of us with laminated ones being carried in our wallets may miss important messages about being taken over.

              Is that a concern or a protection do you think?

              Would wearing a Tiwai point made tinfoil hat be of any protection here?

              Or could it be used to 'invite' the controllers in?

              It has not been very successful so far at keeping some woolly thoughts/posts off TS recently.

              Asking for a friend.wink

              • The Chairman …
                12 January 2022 at 6:56 pm

                Does this threat apply only to those carrying vaccine certifcates on their phones so those of us with laminated ones being carried in our wallets may miss important messages about being taken over.

                One suspects this is merely the introduction allowing people to become accustom and at ease with the system and its use. With advancements added going forward. Therefore, if we witness this coming into fruition, we'll know it will be time to say a enough is enough.

                • Shanreagh …
                  12 January 2022 at 8:11 pm

                  Yet 'they' haven't thought to do this with the Drivers licences, that many of us are required to carry when operating a vehicle/use sometimes as ID. Many have firearms licences.

                  Does it only apply to where people carry technology? If there are large numbers not carrying their passes on their phones doesn't this lessen the threat?

                  Right, so you've never heard of "The Great Reset" and "building back better"?

                  Well now that you bring this up I know you are in fruit loop territory along with Klaus Schwab and his merry band of followers.

                  https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368

                  • The Chairman …
                    12 January 2022 at 8:27 pm

                    Does it only apply to where people carry technology?

                    According to Klaus Schwab, the tech will be apart of you.

                    Fruit loop territory along with Klaus Schwab and his merry band of followers.

                    Today, there are 1,400 members and alumni from more than 120 countries. Notable members include prime ministers Jacinda Ardern

                    https://www.weforum.org/press/2021/03/ygl-class-2021/

                    • Shanreagh …
                      12 January 2022 at 8:46 pm

                      I think a read of the link to the BBC review of the Great reset would be a good idea. It may have set out with laudable aims.

                      "In the hands of a diverse group of online activists, the Great Reset has been transformed – from a call to encourage people to think about a sustainable future, to a sinister plot against humanity".

                      I think we need to be careful to see which part is being supported, the original or what has taken it over. It is such a mess that I think we are better looking at the good parts and repackaging them to remove the CT taint. That you have put this up with a series of posts about control through vaccine passports tends to make me a bit suspicious.

                      The idea of using the environment or time after Covid as a time to have and implement sustainable new ideas is great. Weka has been doing great work for instance on regen ag. We may be able to sweep 3 waters through.

                      So bluntly, are you putting these links up as part of the CT or as a way to stimulate discussions on ways to get good changes to our world after Covid?

          • The Chairman 33.2.1.2.2
            12 January 2022 at 4:52 pm

            The bullshit contained in that video was nothing new.

            I question your bullshit assertion but you are correct, it's nothing new.

            It's an old plan potentially coming closer to fruition.

            The tech (and I'm talking some amazing advancements that would blow most away) has reached the capacity to make total control a real obtainable goal.

            See link for more

            https://youtu.be/N02SK9yd60s?t=4

            • McFlock 33.2.1.2.2.1
              12 January 2022 at 4:55 pm

              an hour now.

              At least provide a synopsis of why you think it's relevant to what we are discussing.

              • The Chairman …
                12 January 2022 at 5:21 pm

                At least provide a synopsis of why you think it's relevant to what we are discussing.

                Sure.

                It will most likely be one of the most informative clips of your life when it comes to how advanced neuroscience and neurotechnology is and how it can and will impact upon the future of us all.

                We are talking about controlling a person's brain in real time via the internet.

                The ability to read and rewrite a persons thoughts.

          • joe90 33.2.1.2.3
            12 January 2022 at 5:07 pm

            Reductive nonsense put together by some dark-enlightenment fanboy with the video editing software his mum gave him for Christmas. ffs

          • Shanreagh 33.2.1.2.4
            12 January 2022 at 5:32 pm

            We could even be 'patriots'……….

      • weka 33.2.2
        12 January 2022 at 5:32 pm

        I'm only 44 seconds in and I already want to Fisk the shit out of it.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 33.3
      12 January 2022 at 3:30 pm

      Sorry, this isn't a bitchute link, so I'm not confident I can rely on it.

      • Robert Guyton 33.3.1
        12 January 2022 at 3:55 pm

        smiley

      • Shanreagh 33.3.2
        12 January 2022 at 5:30 pm

        Yes like you I am particular on who I look at.

        For medical advice I rely on info from the US American Frontline Doctors as that has a far, far better product than CDC or Dr Fauci. Also you cannot beat the commentators who have been booted off (sorry I'll say that again) asked to leave Twitter or YouTube and now are on Telegram or with Rogan on Grifter (is it?)wink

        Heavily /s.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 33.3.2.1
          14 January 2022 at 10:04 am

          Bitchute and Infowars are my only sources.

          In unrelated news, I recently lost my mind.

  34. Robert Guyton 34
    12 January 2022 at 2:24 pm

    Fear mongery, at its finest!

    Whether its true or not, is up to the viewer to decide, but it uses fear as its delivery.

    Aye!

    • Bill 34.1
      12 January 2022 at 2:31 pm

      How is factual observation and intelligent, fact based extrapolation fear? You disagree with the forward analysis, then by all means articulate your disagreement – ie, debate.

      Otherwise, stop wasting space.

      • Robert Guyton 34.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 2:37 pm

        How is factual observation, fear (you ask)?

        How about broadcasting the sufferings of a near-terminal Covid sufferer, on their death-bed, on the 6 o'clock news – would you consider that, "fear"?

        I'm expect you would.

        Factual observation though. Intelligent too.

        How is my challenging your sweeping claims, "wasting time"?

        That video uses fear in its delivery. I could list many instances.

        Should I bother? It's there for you to see.

      • McFlock 34.1.2
        12 January 2022 at 2:50 pm

        You don't think the music and stock footage were just a little over the top?

        As for the rest, or at least the tip of the bullshitberg:

        • conflation of private sector and government "surveillance" is easier said than done;
        • very few places actually check the QR code electronically;
        • the app that checks the code just does internal code validation and doesn't need to be networked to work;
        • having a clip from "300" when talking about "standing up for freedom" shows an ignorance of the reality of Sparta;
        • the vaccine passes are tied quite specifically to their raison d'être – as soon as this is over, they have no further purpose;
        • Given the law has been changed to incorporate the passes, the principle that one can do anything unless the law restricts it is still in effect;
        • a "hidden AI algorithm" (or whatever the bullshit was) doesn't control validation, whether you get your vaccine does. All the development specs are available on sourceforge.

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