War crimes in Palestine

Written By: - Date published: 9:39 am, November 12th, 2023 - 88 comments
Categories: chris hipkins, International, israel, Nanaia Mahuta, Palestine, United Nations, war - Tags:

I attended the Palestine protest in Auckland last weekend.

It achieved a certain amount of notoriety.  My mate Phil Twyford attended and was booed off stage.

It was not all his fault.

The first speaker railed against Labour and National.  She referred to Chris Hipkins’ statement that a ceasefire in Palestine was unrealistic.

She poured scorn on his statement and I am afraid that I am with her on this.  Hipkins’ backtrack on what Nanaia Mahuta said initially was not warranted.

What Hamas did to Israel on October was absolutely awful.

What Israel has done to Palestine since then as well as before is even worse.

You see on one hand is a rag tag bunch of young men who have effectively lived their lives under oppression in the open air prison known as the Gaza Strip.

They have watched their friends being killed by sniper fire for taking part in protests.  They have seen repeated attacks on Gaza by Israeli forces.  And more recently they have witnessed repeated attacks on their schools and hospitals under the pretext that there are Hamas insurgents present.

This makes a perfect incubator for people with terrorist tendencies.

The only word that can be used for what is currently happening in Gaza is “genocide”.

And this is laid out plainly by a former top UN Human Rights Official Craig Mokhiber.  From Al Jazeera:

Mokhiber, an international human rights lawyer, had been with the UN since 1992 and worked previously as a human rights adviser in Afghanistan and the occupied Palestinian territories.

At least 8,805 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza since October 7 after the armed group Hamas launched a surprise assault on Israel, killing at least 1,400 people and taking more than 200 people captive.

“The current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist colonial-settler ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging, based entirely upon their status as Arabs … leaves no room for doubt,” Mokhiber said in his letter to the UN human rights chief, Volker Turk.

He was asked about his view on genocide and said this:

Usually the most difficult part of proving genocide is intent because there has to be an intention to destroy in whole, or in part, a particular group. In this case, the intent by Israeli leaders has been so explicitly stated and publicly stated – by the prime minister, by the president, by senior cabinet ministers, by military leaders – that that is an easy case to make. It’s on the public record.

And he is right there.  Israeli Ministers have gone as far as stating publicly that the use of nuclear weapons on Gaza was an option.

The justification for the assault in that Israel is hunting Hamas, and that it has given civilians plenty of warning to move.  The subtext is that it is Palestinians fault they are being killed by Israelis bombing schools and refugee camps and hospitals.  They had their chance to leave their homes and neighbourhoods.

And the problem is that Israel sees Hamas everywhere.  Hospitals are Hamas strongholds.  Many ambulance workers are Hamas members.  Local contributors to International Media companies are Hamas.  Even many UN workers are apparently Hamas.

The world is coming around.  France’s leader Nicholas Sarkozy is the latest to urge a cease fire.

Meanwhile back in Aotearoa New Zealand Act is attacking Nanaia Mahuta for showing restraint when the latest hostilities commenced.  From Act’s press release:

“Documents released by the Israel Institute of NZ appear to show a final moral failing by Nanaia Mahuta that casts shame on behalf of all New Zealand,” says ACT Deputy Leader and Foreign Affairs spokesperson Brooke van Velden.

“When Hamas began attacks on Israel, Mahuta was advised by MFAT that she should tweet:

‘Aotearoa New Zealand [flag] unequivocally condemns rocket and terror attacks from Gaza into Israel and calls for their immediate cessation. With a high risk of escalation, the protection of civilians, and upholding of international humanitarian law is essential.’

“Mahuta rejected this advice, instead tweeting:

‘Aotearoa New Zealand [flag] is deeply concerned at the outbreak of conflict between Israel and Gaza. We call for the immediate cessation of violence. The protection of all civilians, and upholding of international humanitarian law is essential.’

I for one am totally with Mahuta on this.  All strength to her.

I appreciate that since it is still in caretaker mode it is difficult for Labour to publicly comment on the attrocities happening in Gaza.  But when it can it needs to not follow what UK Labour is doing and refusing to call for a cease fire.  UK Labour’s pogrom on pro Palestinian voices in the party has been appalling.

So where is this all going to?  I think the long term intent is clear.  Especially when Israel is continuing its forced settlements of Palestinian land in the West Bank, an area which is not controlled by Hamas.

88 comments on “War crimes in Palestine ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    12 November 2023 at 10:22 am

    Gideon Levy's lecture is still relevant.

  2. Terry 2
    12 November 2023 at 10:27 am

    Okay so we all know what is happening, Israel is attacking Gaza in retaliation for the attack in early October, which was in response to prior Israeli attacks on Gaza. Those earlier attacks on Gaza were in response to Palestinian attacks on Israel, because the Palestinians were responding to attacks by the Israelis. This cycle has been going on for decades since the creation of the state of Israel.

    But it actually goes back further in time. Both the Arab communities and the Jewish communities have over the centuries occasionally attacked each other in response to a prior attack.

    It is pointless trying to put the blame on one side or another. If there was ever any one person or group of people who were actually responsible for starting this, then they will have been dead for hundreds and hundreds of years.

    It’s now 2023, we can’t go back and change the past, we can only move forward.

    What we need to do is to somehow promote peace and a solution where the Jewish Israelis and the Palestinian muslims are able to live together peacefully. Preferably in their own sovereign state.

    However I will not ever support any country that engages in what can only be described as extermination, which is what we saw the Palestinians from Gaza do to Israeli civilians.

    It is disingenuous to put the blame on what is happening now on the Israelis. We utterly destroyed Germany and Japan in the second world war to dispose of the despotic regimes. I don’t see how the is different.

    the Palestinians have had plenty of opportunities to pursue a peaceful resolution, but they have rejected them. It is clear that the Palestinians will not accept any solution that allows the Jewish population to live in Israel or Palestine unless it’s under the rule of a Palestinian state. And even then many Palestinians want the Jews to be ethnically cleansed from the Middle East.

    So where do you propose that the Jewish people should go? Do you think for a moment that they would be welcomed back into Europe where they were expelled?

    So what’s your final solution to the Jewish problem?

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      12 November 2023 at 12:56 pm

      "the Palestinians have had plenty of opportunities to pursue a peaceful resolution, but they have rejected them."

      Terry-its a little difficult to get a peaceful resolution when Israel has for many years been building numerous illegal settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank, and where Israel treats Gaza as a prison for over two million Palestinians. Israel has adopted an apartheid approach.

      Personally I think the two-state solution is no longer viable. The only practical way forward is a one-state solution where Israel, Gaza and the West Bank become one country and all citizens have equal rights.

      • Terry 2.1.1
        12 November 2023 at 1:15 pm

        The Palestinians do not want to share a country with the Jews. They certainly do not want to share power with the Jews. The solution that you suggest would lead to hell on earth for the entire population, both Jew and Muslim, of that region. The Jewish community has historically been willing to live in peace with the Muslim community. Just like the Jewish communities around the world have historically lived in peace (and also fear) with the communities that live in. Unfortunately for the Jews, we see them at the scapegoats.

        Maybe we should take as many Israelis as immigrants as possible, but I’m not sure we would really welcome them.

        • lprent 2.1.1.1
          12 November 2023 at 2:04 pm

          The Jewish community has historically been willing to live in peace with the Muslim community.

          Complete bullshit. Back in 1948 there were extensive and deliberate operations by the IDF to trigger a refugee crisis and to do ethnic cleansing. Try this report in the Washington Post for ignorant dummies like you who only listen to propaganda. This extract probably covers the main points.

          Returning home would prove impossible for an estimated 750,000 Palestinians and their millions of descendants. When Israeli archives opened in the 1980s, records showed how Israeli operations, including psychological-warfare broadcasts, helped drive the exodus.

          “The element of surprise, long stints of shelling with extremely loud blasts, and loudspeakers in Arabic proved very effective when properly used,” reads an Israel Defense Forces intelligence report from June 1948 that called Jewish combatants “the main factor” in the exodus.

          “Each and every district underwent a wave of migration as our actions in that area intensified and expanded,” the report stated, adding later that sometimes Arabs would attempt to return home shortly after fleeing, “which forced us to engage, on more than one occasion, in expelling residents.”

          Descendants of Arabs who fled during these events ultimately formed the Palestinian refugee population — 70 percent of today’s Gaza Strip residents are considered refugees. The event, known as the “Nakba,” or “catastrophe” in Arabic, remains a heated topic on both sides.

          When you look at the current IDF operations in Gaza with calls for Gazan residents to move south, widespread destruction of property and what looks like deliberate targeting of roads, schools and refugee points with loud explosions, it looks exactly the same but with rockets, bombs and area bombardments.

          For now, Israel has instead told Gaza civilians to shelter in the southern part of their enclave to avoid bombardment.

          “It’s not going to work, because they’re bombing the southern part of the Gaza Strip, too. Nobody’s safe there either,” Khalidi said. “Why would you leave? They’re killing you in the north or they’re killing in the South. Why not stay where your food and your home is?”

          When you look at the current settler actions operating with IDF and milita to clear Bedouin and Palestinian settlement in the West Bank, it looks like they have been doing ethnic cleansing using the Nazi Brownshirt terrorism model. Next thing I suspect that you’re going to argue that the land grabs like this “‘Silent annexation’: Settlers dispossess West Bank Bedouins amid Israel war” are being done for the interest of the Bedouin.

          Wadi al-Siq is among the Palestinian Bedouin villages in the occupied West Bank that are being forcibly displaced in a tide that has grown these past two weeks, according to rights organisations.

          Heavily armed Israelis from illegal settlements attack these communities on a daily basis – concentrated, organised attacks that go unimpeded and sometimes aided by security forces, according to witnesses and human rights organisations.

          While this has happened for years, it has increased in intensity and frequency as the world looks away, focused on the horror of the Israel-Gaza war that began on October 7.

          “It’s all over the West Bank,” said Hirschfeld, who was in the area four or five times since the start of the war. “[The settlers are] taking advantage of the situation and doing whatever they want.”

          Wadi al-Siq is among the Palestinian Bedouin villages in the occupied West Bank that are being forcibly displaced in a tide that has grown these past two weeks, according to rights organisations.

          Heavily armed Israelis from illegal settlements attack these communities on a daily basis – concentrated, organised attacks that go unimpeded and sometimes aided by security forces, according to witnesses and human rights organisations.

          While this has happened for years, it has increased in intensity and frequency as the world looks away, focused on the horror of the Israel-Gaza war that began on October 7.

          “It’s all over the West Bank,” said Hirschfeld, who was in the area four or five times since the start of the war. “[The settlers are] taking advantage of the situation and doing whatever they want.”

          Basically your naive propaganda fuelled view of the benevolent Israelis simply doesn’t stand up against the actual historical record in Palestine. It just shows you to be an credulous idiot.

          • SPC 2.1.1.1.1
            12 November 2023 at 2:37 pm

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

            https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries

            When you look at the current IDF operations in Gaza with calls for Gazan residents to move south, widespread destruction of property …. it looks exactly the same but with rockets, bombs and area bombardments.

            There is a difference, and it is one of motive – as to intent.

            Likud wants permanent Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank, but not Gaza. They do not care if there are 2 million or one million in Gaza, they do want more land for settlement in the WB and to pressure Palestinians of the WB to choose to have a better life elsewhere.

            They may have used Hamas to delegitimise the peace process in the past, but it appears this time they want residents out of the way so the IDF can confront Hamas and take out the tunnels under Gaza city.

            The PA will not want to go into Gaza after the IDF, so it is somewhat necessary for some international peacekeeping group to go in there first. That prepares for both the rebuild and the way to an election for the PA parliament and presidency – and a mandate for the PA to negotiate.

            The best outcome is for this to result in two graves, one for Hamas and one for Likud.

          • Terry 2.1.1.1.2
            13 November 2023 at 6:17 pm

            Ok so pre the formation of the state of Israel, there have been clashes between Jewish villagers and Arab villagers, including killings on both sides. There were many Arab communities in Palestine who were happy to live with the Jewish community, there were also some hardline Arab communities who wanted the Jewish communities gone. Some of these communities or Palestinian leaders actively worked with the Nazi Germans, both prior to WW2 and up to the defeat of Rommels army in the North Africa desert. Should the Germans have defeated the Allies in North Africa, the German plan was to set up concentration camps to deal with the Jews and other undesirables.

            After WW2 with the creation of Israel 5 Arab countries immediately invaded Israel. Local Palestinian Arabs were advised to join in the fight against Israel, or flee. Once Israel had been defeated. The Palestinians would return and take over the Jewish communities properly.

            However Israel won, the Arab Palestinians who remained in Israel accepted to become a part of Israel, those Arab Palestinians who would not accept Israeli governance or who had fought against Israel were expelled. Interestingly a lot of Palestinian Arabs chose to stay and become Israelis themselves.

            Since before the creation of Israel the leaders of the Palestinian Arabs have refused to accept any deal where Israel exists.

            All in all, yes Israel has done some shitty stuff. There is no doubt about that, however by comparison the Palestinian leadership would be in good company with Hitler and Stalin.

            In this case, since the beginning of October, the Gaza Palestinians are the bad guys, in the same way the Germans and Japanese were the bad guys in WW2.

            If you are standing with the Palestinians in Gaza, you are standing with the German side on WW2.

            I’m sure that there are good Palestinians in Gaza, just like there were good Germans in WW2, even when they lived right next door to concentration camps and could see the smoke rising from the crematorium.

            • observer 2.1.1.1.2.1
              13 November 2023 at 7:30 pm

              From reading your various comments here the only possible conclusion is that you deliberately avoid anything that interferes with a closed mind. So there's not much point debating any of this with you, if you've never read a basic history book then comments on a blog are not going to make any difference. (There are of course hundreds of even-handed and authoritative books on the Middle East written by Israeli and Jewish authors, academics and historians, please seek them out and open that mind).

              For today, one example of your misinformation will suffice. You claim:

              Since before the creation of Israel the leaders of the Palestinian Arabs have refused to accept any deal where Israel exists.

              False. That is really basic history.

              Oslo Accords – Wikipedia

              And what happened to the Israel PM who signed that agreement? Murdered by the Israeli far right.

          • Tricledrown 2.1.1.1.3
            14 November 2023 at 11:09 am

            My dad was in Palestine from 1945 to 48.He said it was radicalized Jews migrating to Palestine who were causing most of the problems. These fundamentalists were attacking the British peace keeping force. But for 1400 years Arabs and Jewish people lived sharing Palestine in relative peace!The British played both sides promising both the same land .After the breakup of the Ottoman empire .Arabs fought with Germany WW1 so the British were wanting to keep the Arab countries on their side to keep Germany from obtaining vast quantities of oil. After Hitler came to power he wanted to bring Arabs back onto his side so started deporting Jews in 1933 to forment Arab uprisings. So big Empires meddling have caused much of the ongoing reprisals.The British after WW2 were under the league of Nations as a so called peace keeping force but mainly sided with the Jews even though the radicalized Jews wanted the British out and deliberately targeted British forces the local Arabs largely left the British forces alone.By 1948 Britain was financially broke and was struggling to maintain peace and illegal migration.The the US stepped in and told the British to get out.Then Israel set about ethnic cleansing which continues today putting Arabs into ghettoized concentration camps with no voting rights.Even Jews in Israel and Germany have been protesting against these far right Jews ie Netanyahu another Dictator who is the Trump like Israeli leader who has undone what semblance of Democracy Israel had. Their will be no peace in the Middle East now it will continue to be a festering sore now both side's are never going to compromise especially as now Putin is pushing Iran to stir up more troubles. The winners are the military industrialists and oil companies.Putin will try and open up more fronts around the World to take the heat off his Ukraine invasion.This will end up costing the Western oriented countries in inflation and longterm recession.I wouldn't be surprised if Russia uses a couple of s400 missiles to bring down more passenger planes again.Russians are great chess players and their tactics will outmanoevre the West as the west tries to be fair fighters but in reality there are no rules in War .Putin will up the anti with Wagner in Africa,North Korea,Iran,Venezuela with China helping and India sitting.on the sidelines taking cheap oil from Russia and cheap military armaments from the west.Edge of empire wars can lead to major wars humanity hasn't evolved beyond aggression or exploitation

            !

        • theotherpat 2.1.1.2
          13 November 2023 at 7:37 am

          HMMMMM…israeli propoganda methinks.

    • mickysavage 2.2
      12 November 2023 at 8:02 pm

      So where do you propose that the Jewish people should go? Do you think for a moment that they would be welcomed back into Europe where they were expelled?

      I would like to think they could sort things out with the Palestinians and agree to giving the two state solution a go. And eventually there may be a democracy where everyone gets a vote and people are respectful and tolerant of each other. Clearly the situation is not there yet.

    • KJT 2.3
      13 November 2023 at 8:27 am

      Who are doing the "ethnic cleansing' in reality.

      Since 2006 alone. Though the "clearance" of Palistinians has been going on since before 1948. Who are the "Terrorists"?

      Operation Summer Rains (June 2006)

      Operation Autumn Clouds (October-November 2006)

      Operation Hot Winter (February-March 2008)

      Operation Cast Lead (December 2008-January 2009)

      Operation Running Echo (March 2012)

      Operation Pillar of Cloud (November 2012)

      Operation Protective Edge (July-August 2014)

      Operation Black Belt (November 2019)

      Operation Breaking Dawn (August 2022)

      Operation Shield and Arrow (May 2023)

      The "West" assauging their collective guilt over the Holocaust by supporting another on people who had no part in it.

      Continued Israeli terrorism are an own goal destroying Israels “moral right to exist”.

      • Belladonna 2.3.1
        13 November 2023 at 9:04 am

        Given the almost complete ethnic cleansing of any Jews in Arab countries – it's very clear that it's the Arab countries.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

        It ranges from 'encouraged' migration to outright attacks and deportations.

        Note that Palestinian Arabs have citizenship in Israel and representation in the Knesset. I challenge you to find an equivalent provision in any other Middle Eastern country for Jews.

        • KJT 2.3.1.1
          13 November 2023 at 4:32 pm

          Did you even comprehend one line of the comment?

          • Terry 2.3.1.1.1
            13 November 2023 at 6:52 pm

            Questioning Israelis right to exist, in other words, we need to find a final solution to the Jewish ​​​​​​ Israeli problem. The Germans tried that one, we bombed Germany into the ground & hung the leaders and perpetrators for their obscenity to mankind.

            You are lucky that Labour and the Greens never had the opportunity to legislate against hate speech. Considering that not agreeing with the statement, that a trans woman is actually a literal real woman, would have been considered hate speech. Suggesting the extermination of a group of humans is an option, would have seen you imprisoned for life without the possibility of parole.

            Perpetrating the type of comment that you made is one reason why it’s increasingly difficult to get a solution here where all people can live with dignity.

            As a lifelong supporter of human rights, I am increasingly concerned about certain so called leftists who perpetuate hatred towards the Jewish community, and disguising as protest against Israel.

            • KJT 2.3.1.1.1.1
              13 November 2023 at 8:35 pm

              Those “perpetuating hatred against the Jewish community” are those who have just murdered and injured thousands of Palistinian civilians.

              Something which some seem unable to comprehend.

            • Muttonbird 2.3.1.1.1.2
              13 November 2023 at 9:05 pm

              Notwithstanding the continuum of micro wars, violent oppression, and proxy hegemony around the world, the last 'final solution' attempt before the current Israeli action in Gaza was this*:

              The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide, was the July 1995 genocidal killing of more than 8,000 Bosniak Muslim men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica, during the Bosnian War. The killings were perpetrated by units of the Bosnian Serb Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of Ratko Mladić.

              All done in the name of Christianity.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

              *I apologise to all those affected by instances of genocide within those proxy wars.

          • Belladonna 2.3.1.1.2
            13 November 2023 at 7:14 pm

            Yep. You listed a batch of military actions – which you claim are examples of ethnic cleansing

            I responded by linking to the virtually complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries in the Middle East.

            Or is it somehow OK in your mind for the latter to exist, but not the former?

            • KJT 2.3.1.1.2.1
              14 November 2023 at 11:21 am

              If you had been paying attention you would know that I don't have any time for those who bomb babies.

              No matter what "side" they profess to be on.

              • Belladonna …
                14 November 2023 at 12:12 pm

                I seem to have missed your condemnation of Hamas for doing exactly this.
                However, no doubt you'll be able to link to it.

                • Liberal Realist …
                  14 November 2023 at 1:35 pm

                  Do you condemn Zionist Israel for violent oppression, ethnic cleansing, and genocide committed against the indigenous Palestinian population since 1948?

                  Hamas are partisans with a legal right to oppose their murderous oppressors. No, Hamas do not have a right to attack civilians. Nor do the Zionists, yet here we are witnessing Israel commit genocide in plain sight. Israel is committing genocide and has been since 1948.

                  Fascist Zionist Israel is a war crime unto itself and anyone backing them are complicit.

                  • Belladonna …
                    15 November 2023 at 8:46 am

                    Well. That's your, rather one-sided, interpretation.

                    Do you admit that Palestinian Arabs are citizens of Israel, and are represented in the Knesset?

                    Doesn't sound much like ethnic cleansing and violent oppression.

                    Can you name a Middle Eastern country which regards Jews as citizens, and allows them political representation?

                    Have you looked at the history of ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Or does it only matter if Palestinian Arabs are affected?

                    Do I support the violence in Israel/Gaza. Of course not. But I'm not blinded to the crimes committed by both sides. Nor do I see any effective solution being proposed (the two-state solution is not supported by either side in the conflict, and is effectively dead in the water)

                    Nor do I regard Hamas as anything other than a religiously radical, non-democratic, oppressive terrorist organization.

                    I suggest you familiarize yourself with the actual meaning of 'fascist'. Israel has a representative democracy (unlike virtually every other Middle Eastern country).

                    Zionism has the base-level requirement for a state of Israel to exist. As you are apparently using it pejoratively, do you deny the right of Israel to exist as a country?

                • KJT …
                  14 November 2023 at 1:35 pm

                  Is there a rule that both sides have to be mentioned in every comment?

                  Or. Did you just make that up?

                  • Belladonna …
                    15 November 2023 at 8:48 am

                    Not at all. I invite you to link to any other comments you've made on TS condemning Hamas 'bombing babies'.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      19 November 2023 at 8:54 am

                      The War Turns Gaza Into a ‘Graveyard’ for Children
                      [18 Nov 2023]
                      If the figures are even close to accurate, far more children have been killed in Gaza in the past six weeks than the 2,985 children killed in the world’s major conflict zones — across two dozen countries — during all of last year, even with the war in Ukraine, according to U.N. tallies of verified deaths in armed conflict.

                      Children whose tragic details are reported in that NY Times article "seem to have been chosen for maximum horror" – bloody Hamas!

                      It’s a time for choosing [23 Oct 2023]
                      The humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in Gaza requires each of us to make a choice.

                      Which leads me, finally, to the choice the mostly unrepentant keyboard cavalry who are happily saddling up once more – in derivative columns and hyperbolic appearances on TV – made to side with their home team’s, by now, familiar mantra: Kill first, think later.

                      Maybe the ‘actions’ in Gaza will make the region safer in the medium-to-long term – time will tell.

                • KJT …
                  14 November 2023 at 1:56 pm

                  It would be rather a long comment if I mentioned every bunch of baby bombers in every comment.

                  Currently rather a few around the world.

                  This thread is about the IDF's efforts in that regard.

                  • Belladonna …
                    15 November 2023 at 8:29 am

                    And you're still ignoring Hamas' efforts in that regard.

                  • Terry …
                    15 November 2023 at 5:27 pm

                    Hamas along with the people of Gaza, are an abhorrent society similar to Germany from the 1930’s to may 1945.

                    For all of Israels shitty behaviour, they are the good guys in this.

                    Unfortunately many Palestinians do not want to live in peace with the Jewish community of Israel, or any other country.

                    If they wanted peace, they could have had peace.

                    [Please fix the typo in the e-mail address in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

  3. SPC 3
    12 November 2023 at 10:51 am

    Genocide?

    Absolute tosh. It’s a war.

    How many civilian deaths were caused by Allied bombing in WW2?

    Churchill ordered the bombing of German cities when the RAF airfields were under pressure to incite the Germans to do the same, to ease that pressure.

    • SPC 3.1
      12 November 2023 at 11:46 am

      Of course what constitutes war crimes has changed since WW2.

      That said, it's unusual for a military to base itself underneath urban areas, and to take back hostages to such locations – to either coerce the release of its POW's or incite a war in which Israel will be accused of war crimes when urban areas are destroyed so as to prepare the way for IDF operations.

      • francesca 3.1.1
        12 November 2023 at 1:45 pm

        The very retort that Russia gave as excuse or reason for bombing the hospital in Mariupol

        I don't recall that reason being given any credibility whatsoever

        In any case , it's still considered to be a war crime under international law to bomb a functioning hospital

        • SPC 3.1.1.1
          12 November 2023 at 1:57 pm

          What retort?

          I am aware that Russia has deliberately bombed a large number of hospitals in Ukraine, but I am unaware they have claimed they were legitimate military targets.

          https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/21/europe/report-hospital-ukraine-attacks-russia-invasion-intl-dg/index.html

          These and attacks on water and power supply across Ukraine explain the 6 million refugees from Ukraine

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_refugee_crisis_(2022%E2%80%93present)

          Israel does not claim Gaza hospitals are targets, just that they are used as hiding places for fighters and are sometimes above tunnels etc. This is why Gaza civilians go to these areas to avoid bombing.

        • Liberal Realist 3.1.1.2
          14 November 2023 at 1:44 pm

          Your example is propaganda that has been thoroughly and completely debunked.

          Ukrainian forces took over the hospital in Marupol and used it as a firing point. Just like they've done elsewhere with schools, kindergartens, etc. great for propaganda purposes as evidenced with all the dupes still out there.

          Honestly can't believe how many left wing folk fell for the blatant propaganda about the Russia/Ukraine war.. but here we are.

          • Francesca 3.1.1.2.1
            14 November 2023 at 2:45 pm

            A reading of all my comments re the Russia/Ukraine war, or the SMO will reveal that I have huge scepticism of the prevailing slant in favour of US/Ukraine

            SPC, who is not exactly pro Russian disputed that the Russians had ever claimed the hospital was used as a military installation by the Ukrainians.No doubt his idea was that the Russians were out to bomb the hell out of Mariupol citizenry , because….. Um …Russia.In fact he's not as hard nosed as most.

            I replied to him with the only quote I could find that would be acceptable to him

            As you probably know , its hard to find any English sources for the Russian point of view .That is the only one I could find, with its inevitable barb towards Russia.RT of course is totally beyond the pale for many folks here, being state funded

            The BBC on the other hand is eminently and unquestionably acceptable, even though its also state funded .

            A kind of cultural imperialism at work

            The Amnesty quote should have been enough to show you where I'm coming from

          • SPC 3.1.1.2.2
            14 November 2023 at 3:35 pm

            Your example is propaganda that has been thoroughly and completely debunked.

            What example?

            • Francesca 3.1.1.2.2.1
              14 November 2023 at 4:23 pm

              According to the side box he was replying to me SPC.And I think it was the quote about Russians claiming the hospital was a legitimate military target as reported in the CNN link , with predictable scorn for the Russian claims

    • mickysavage 3.2
      12 November 2023 at 8:06 pm

      Genocide?

      Absolute tosh. It’s a war.

      Since the formation of the League of Nations and of the UN the world mostly has tried to work out more civilised ways of engaging in war and ways to leave innocent civilians out of it.

  4. Mr Nobody 4
    12 November 2023 at 11:23 am

    The bombing will stop as soon as Hamas releases the Israeli hostages. Until then the IDF rightfully will take all steps to secure them themselves and to dismantle the Hamas terror organisation.

    • lprent 4.2
      12 November 2023 at 2:56 pm

      The bombing will stop as soon as Hamas releases the Israeli hostages.

      Which really just says that you believe that the IDF is bombing civilians as a collective punishment – which is a violation of the Geneva convention.

      However the IDF and the Israeli PM assert that their objective is to eliminate Hamas and that they are bombing to eliminate Hamas irrespective of freeing hostages. That their current bombardment is to do that and that civilians being bombed is merely collateral damage. That their current actions will continue regardless of freeing of hostages.

      So who should I believe, someone who is a nobody and who clearly can’t think logically. Or the stated intentions of the IDF and corrupt narcissistic fuckup Israeli PM whose idiotic machinations supported Hamas over the last 25+ years and his even more insane defence minister.

    • joe90 4.3
      12 November 2023 at 3:11 pm

      as soon as Hamas releases the Israeli hostages.

      They're not going to release hostages.

      Thousands have been killed in Gaza, with entire families wiped out. Israeli airstrikes have reduced Palestinian neighborhoods to expanses of rubble, while doctors treat screaming children in darkened hospitals with no anesthesia. Across the Middle East, fear has spread over the possible outbreak of a broader regional war.

      But in the bloody arithmetic of Hamas’s leaders, the carnage is not the regrettable outcome of a big miscalculation. Quite the opposite, they say: It is the necessary cost of a great accomplishment — the shattering of the status quo and the opening of a new, more volatile chapter in their fight against Israel.

      It was necessary to “change the entire equation and not just have a clash,” Khalil al-Hayya, a member of Hamas’s top leadership body, told The New York Times in Doha, Qatar. “We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm.”

      […]

      “I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times.

      https://archive.li/JHuv4 (nyt)

      • weka 4.3.1
        12 November 2023 at 4:17 pm

        thanks for that. I had been wondering why Hamas did their original bombing knowing how Israel would respond. Fucking brutal all round, unevenly distributed.

        • lprent 4.3.1.1
          13 November 2023 at 1:22 pm

          It was pretty obvious what the Hamas motivation was.

          The US had quietly stopped doing anything to push the two state solution since in early-2000s. Having Likud there was an obstacle. Running a set of forever wars in the middle east after the completely idiotic and pointless war on Iraq post 9/11 sapped attention.

          Israel had stopped after Likid started winning control of the Knesset under Netanyahu. He started sabotaging the two state solution at every opportunity. Promoting Hamas in Gaza as a counter-force to the PA in the West Bank was just part of that.

          The US and Israel have recently been pushing for a normalisation within the frameworks of the Abraham Accords and the various defence and trade pacts.

          Those agreements had nothing to do with the plight of the Palestinian refugees from 1948 and their descendants. In effect from a Palestinian perspective appear to have been deliberately set up to in the face of Israeli government intransigence to sanction the seizure of the land required for a two state solution and destroying any hope of Palestinian state.

          The PA had become in effect a ineffectual client government for the Israelis with many of the characteristics of the Vichy French government in the 1940s. Conquered and only governing with the support of their conqueror.

          It is obvious in retrospect that Hamas was planning to disrupt this cozy set of arrangements for some time. However there has always been tension between the more activist parts of Hamas and those who were more restrained and willing to keep trying for more peaceful resolutions.

          At a guess Netanyahu showing his map of 'Greater Israel' in September was the likely trigger that shifted balance and pushed the attack into actual motion.

          Speaking to a largely empty chamber, Netanyahu—whose far-right government is widely considered the most extreme in Israeli history—showed a series of maps, including one that did not show the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or Gaza. These Palestinian territories have been illegally occupied by Israel since 1967, with the exception of Gaza—from which Israeli forces withdrew in 2005, while maintaining an economic stranglehold over the densely populated coastal strip.

          Middle East Eyereported Netanyahu also held up a map of "Israel in 1948"—the year the modern Jewish state was established, largely through the ethnic cleansing of more than 750,000 Arabs—that erroneously included the Palestinian territories as part of Israel.

          and

          Netanyahu used the maps in an attempt to illustrate the increasing number of Arab countries normalizing relations with Israel under the Abraham Accords brokered by the administration of former U.S. President Donald Trump.

          "There's no question the Abraham Accords heralded the dawn of a new age of peace," the Israeli prime minister said. "But I believe that we are at the cusp of an even more dramatic breakthrough, an historic peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia will truly create a new Middle East."

          Using that particular map that just eliminated Palestine with what had been happening on the ground (the air-sea-land blockade of Gaza and the Israeli government push of settlers and unlawful land seizures in the West Bank) was a direct and pointed threat to every Palestinian in those territories.

          Hamas has now successfully caused most of the Abraham Accord states to back away from it, plus most previous agreements are in turmoil. The sense of security that Netanyahu and Likud have fostered amongst Israeli citizens has been shattered. Plus they now have to look at what their government has been doing in their name, especially those in the economically crucial tech sector (who are now starting to emigrate rapidly).

          But it has highlighted the fate of Palestinian refugees which is now front-page news throughout the world again. For them, Israeli occupation had already been a choice of dying quietly through lack of opportunity, seizure of economic asserts, or children throwing rocks against soldiers and settlers firing live ammo to steal those assets. Effectively a people living in Israeli concentration camps and separated ghettos.

          Strategically Hamas has and still is winning a massive victory by getting the IDF and Likud led government and its brownshirt settlers and West Bank occupation forces to show their true nature as they resort into a disproportional mass killing. After nearly 80 years they are forcing Israel to have to deal with them one way or another – and in the process killing Netanyahu’s new middle east. They have destroyed the security of Israeli citizens.

          Netanyahu has now pushed Israel to the point of

          • following some kind of Nazi final solution and killing of expelling in a explicit act of ethnic cleansing; or
          • figuring out a peaceful solution that involves killing the hopes of extreme Zionists; or
          • enduring many more decades of a cold war standoff with what will be their Palesinian non-citizens.

          Because the PA isn’t going to stay. They have little to no real support except amongst the Israeli props.

          It is a damn near perfect weaker side forced argument by Hama to change political rule base. Risky as hell – but for both sides.

          • Ad 4.3.1.1.1
            13 November 2023 at 2:50 pm

            I tend to agree with that as a motivation for Hamas attacking.

            The tactic is – as with most terror groups – Hamas have attacked to deliberately invite force back upon them many times over, then used that counterattack to generate international outrage, and then in doing so reap new membership and funding, and potentially a full state actor to join them boots on the ground.

            That is a pretty standard terror rollout.

            What is different this time is essentially the Abrahamic accords are holding. There are no substantial attacks against Israel by Qatar, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, or anyone else in the Arabian Peninsula.

            Also neither Egypt or Jordan are enabling refugees from Gaza and have in fact ruled them out.

            What is also different is that there is near-zero response from OPEC members and oil is trundling along at $US80 a barrel. No global weaponisation of oil either in supply or price, and the markets reading that accurately.

            That tells me that so far Saudia Arabia and its client states are now close-to neutral on Palestinian statehood. That's a generational shift to see common interest less with Palestinians and more with Israel.

            So far, Hamas have played their fresh hand as well as they could, and it's just not worked.

      • Bearded Git 4.3.2
        12 November 2023 at 4:59 pm

        Hamas's bloody arithmetic has worked. It has woken people up to the festering sore that is Israel/Palestine.

        There were around half a million (police say 300k, demonstrators say 800k) people demonstrating in support of Palestine on the streets of London yesterday.

        • Ad 4.3.2.1
          13 November 2023 at 2:54 pm

          You have better memory than that BG.

          This isn't 1949, or the Six Day War, or the formation of OPEC, or Egypt and Syria going for Israel in 1973, or any other big ones.

          This is staying remarkably contained.

          And Egypt and the Saudi's and their client states aren't moving a muscle.

    • Francesca 4.4
      12 November 2023 at 9:34 pm

      Alternatively Israel could release the Palestinian prisoners (including children) rotting in their jails without charge indefinitely

      There are 1,264 Palestinian administrative detainees, which means that they are held indefinitely behind bars without facing trial or any charges. This practice, a remnant of the British Mandate era, can be extended indefinitely based on “secret evidence”, meaning that a detainee can spend months if not years in prison without being charged.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails

  5. gsays 5
    12 November 2023 at 5:49 pm

    Rather than squabble and willy wave on who did what and when, I, rather desperately, would like to know what I can do to help.

    To help end the horror being visited on what appears to be a third world nation.

    It's no use to break my soda stream machine.

    I am going to shift my KiwiSaver to Simplicity as I understand they are divesting themselves of Israeli connections. Just seems a futile gesture and it's horrible to feel so ineffective.

  6. Mike the Lefty 6
    12 November 2023 at 6:26 pm

    The Israeli government should reflect on how collective punishment was used against Jewish people by the Nazis in World War Two for much the same reasons as they use in defence of their actions in Gaza.

    But I'm sure they've convinced themselves that is OK when THEY inflict it.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1
      12 November 2023 at 7:12 pm

      What action did Jews take that led to collective punishment from Germany in WWII?

      • joe90 6.1.1
        12 November 2023 at 7:48 pm

        What action did Jews take

        Existing.

        Abstract

        The clear and repeated testimony of numerous survivors and Jewish resistance leaders is that collective responsibility was the most important obstacle to the development of Jewish armed resistance, and was the primary reason for forced co-operation with the Nazis. The allegation that Jews were submissive and went ‘like sheep to the slaughter’ ignores the unique constraints placed upon Jewish communities by German security measures. The question, ‘Why did Jews not resist their killers?’ is insensitive, is based upon hindsight — upon a clear knowledge of Nazi intentions and policy towards the Jews of Europe — and lacks historical understanding. When we examine the conditions in which Jews were confined, the question which really needs addressing is not why there was so little Jewish resistance, but why there was any resistance at all? As Elie Wiesel observes:

        The question is not why all the Jews did not fight, but how so many of them did. Tormented, beaten, starved, where did they find the strength — spiritual and physical — to resist?3

        […]

        Knowing how strong family ties are among Jews, and that they would not jeopardize their families, nor the community as a whole, for the sake of saving their own skins, the Nazis practised collective responsibility. They did not shy away from killing children in front of their mothers … if a Jew were to kill one, two or more Nazis, he would have accomplished nothing, but only exposed others to collective punishment.1

        Joachim Schoenfeld, Holocaust Survivor

        Inasmuch as the enemy had established collective Jewish respon-sibility, we could not raise a hand against the Germans, and so bring about the murder of thousands of Jews … these were psy-chological hindrances for every Jew… These psychological re-straints stemmed primarily from the Nazi doctrine of collective responsibility and collective guilt; this weighed down the decision.2

        Yitzak Zuckerman, Commander of the Jewish Fighting

        Organisation in the Warsaw Ghetto

        https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230508262_8

        Martin Schiller, Polish-born child survivor of the Holocaust, recalls how the German policy of collective responsibility posed moral dilemmas for prisoners in the camps.

      • Mike the Lefty 6.1.2
        13 November 2023 at 9:36 am

        The question is so dumb that I assume you are being sarcastic.

        If not then go read up a bit about World War Two and learn something.

    • Belladonna 6.2
      13 November 2023 at 8:36 am

      Name one single instance where the Jews in Germany attacked the Nazi regime.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.1
        13 November 2023 at 9:06 am

        Jewish armed resistance to Nazi policies was mostly limited to ghettos and partisan units in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe – “Jews in Germany” became few and far between?

        Organized armed resistance was the most forceful form of Jewish opposition to Nazi policies in German-occupied Europe. Jewish civilians offered armed resistance in over 100 ghettos in occupied Poland and the Soviet Union.

        https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-resistance

        https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231016-gaza-ghetto-the-occupations-lasting-legacy/

        • Belladonna 6.2.1.1
          13 November 2023 at 9:09 am

          I specified “Germany” not Eastern Europe.

          Goodness, and these Jewish ghettos launched rockets at German civilians, and kidnapped them for revenge?
          Amazing how I missed this from the detailed study of WW2. /sarc/

          • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.1.1.1
            13 November 2023 at 9:35 am

            I specified “Germany” not Eastern Europe.

            Yes, you absolutely did.

            Goodness, and these Jewish ghettos launched rockets at German civilians, and kidnapped them for revenge?

            Goodness, did they? You're better informed about WWII than I am.

            Tbh, if people living in WWII ghettos had access to rockets, then I would have had difficulty condemning their use, but maybe I'm a bit one-eyed – I bow to you're superior knowledge and more balanced/centrist PoV in these matters.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.2.2
        13 November 2023 at 11:53 am

        Yes, that is a exactly my point. Regardless of justification or not, hamas has certainly launched significant violence, while the nazis attacked Jews with no real provocation.

    • theotherpat 6.3
      13 November 2023 at 9:03 am

      yes….the fourth reich is here in israel

      • Belladonna 6.3.1
        13 November 2023 at 9:07 am

        Meanwhile the ethnic cleansing of Jews from every state in the Middle East – has been going on for decades – with zero political outcry from the 'leftie' community.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

        Who are the Nazis here?

        • theotherpat 6.3.1.1
          13 November 2023 at 10:42 am

          so glad you think its allright cos they over there did it too.

          • Belladonna 6.3.1.1.1
            13 November 2023 at 12:09 pm

            Apparently, you think it's fine for Arab countries to actually carry out ethnic cleansing of Jews – but outrageous when there are claims that Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing on Palestinians.

            Do you even see the contradiction? Or are the blinkers too strong?

        • lprent 6.3.1.2
          13 November 2023 at 12:39 pm

          Perhaps you should actually read the wikipedia entry rather than just reading the title. Much of the entry is about the facts vs propaganda about the Jewish exodus from Arab and Iranian lands. Much of propaganda has been by the Israeli government that ignores their own pull incentives (and often that those failed when you look at how many did not migrate to Israel, but went instead to other countries).

          This a pretty accurate description in the header summary. So is the detail about when the migration occurred, much of it well before the formation of Israel in response to campaigns by Zionists inside Israel to increase immigration. There is no denying of the push incentives for instance those fuelled by Nazis in Iraq, and after the formation of Israel. However much of the time there were inflicted on remnant populations, when much of the Jewish communities had already migrated either to Israel or other countries in a large part for economic motives. The fall of the Ottoman empire and the transition into European protectorates after WW1 across the Arab world was notable for reducing incentives to stay in poorer economies.

          The reasons for the exoduses are manifold, including: pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionism, find a better economic status and a secure home in either Israel or Europe and the Americas, and the Israeli government’s implementation of official policy in favour of the “One Million Plan” to focus on accommodating Jewish immigrants from Arab- and Muslim-majority countries;[17] and push factors, such as antisemitism, persecution, and pograms, political instability,[18] poverty,[18] and expulsion. The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[19][20] When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left to have been refugees, while those who oppose that view generally emphasize the pull factors and consider them to have been willing immigrants.[21]

          In particular look at the section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Israeli_criticism_of_the_Jewish_Nakba_narrative which details the views of many of the migrants from those areas.

          The exodus from the Arab and Iran worlds was a long-standing migration that started in the 19th century

          It was nothing like having 750,000 odd Palestinians evicted over the space of a few months, largely by the efforts of what became the IDF, in 1948. Most of it appeared to happen by pull on a voluntary basis rather than largely by the push of Arab and Iranian governments before and after 1948.

          Basically your analogy was stupid and outright ignorant.

          BTW: you read exactly like German citizen after the downfall of the Nazi regime saying “but I didn’t know about the Deathcamps” because they believed the titles of propaganda from Goebbels rather than reading the detail or just looking to find out. Israeli government and Zionist propaganda seems to share a strong heritage from the Nazis. Sounds plausible, but is usually eventually revealed to be complete rubbish.

          • Belladonna 6.3.1.2.1
            13 November 2023 at 7:07 pm

            Yes, there are pull factors. There are also substantial occurrences of attacks on Jews – either politically motivated, or tacitly supported by the governments concerned. Pull factors are rarely sufficient on their own, to make people up-stakes and move to another country – leaving (in the vast majority of cases) all their worldly wealth behind (confiscated by the Arab governments)

            And, the results speak for themselves. Name one Middle Eastern country with a substantial Jewish population? Name one Middle Eastern country where Jews are regarded as citizens and able to take part in political life?

            The reverse, BTW, is not true in Israel. Palestinian Arabs are citizens, and are elected to (and participate in) the Knesset.

            https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/06/18/the-one-place-in-the-middle-east-where-minorities-are-thriving/

            I know which countries I regard as having carried out ethnic cleansing.

            I suggest (bringing an entirely different religious tradition into play) that you look to the log in your own eye.

            • theotherpat 6.3.1.2.1.1
              14 November 2023 at 9:39 am

              that was a great read thank you….but you obsfuscate…..what is happening RIGHT NOW in Gaza cannot be excused under any pretext or past history.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1
      13 November 2023 at 7:39 am

      That is a superb letter, and I hope everyone here reads it.

      It is informed, humane and compassionate. It accurately identifies and criticises malign actors on both sides and realistically discusses what needs to be done, and how monumentally difficult it will be to do it.

      Much better than the simplistic cheerleading for one side or the other that goes on.

      • Ghostwhowalks 7.1.1
        13 November 2023 at 10:29 am

        The trouble with that sort of approach that is selective about when history begins. That from Oct 27 was the only timeline we need consider

        Consider the Irish Easter Uprising in Dublin 24 April 2016

        Everyone remembers , especially the Irish, the 16 executed by the British military under martial law in May [ Considering the 75-80 executed by the Free State government, some without any trial at all during their civil war]

        No one remembers the 320 civilians killed in Dublin in those days

        Zionism is a just an invented political-religious philosophy of that 1890 era, not much different than Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Scientists or even Scientology . Does it really deserve to last in course of History ?

  9. Siobhan 9
    14 November 2023 at 12:16 pm

    Here is an earlier interview with Gilles Devers who has just approached the ICC with papers regarding War Crimes committed by Israel..it offers some interesting legal (and to my mind, moral) opinions. It is very much worth reading as it covers facts re War Crimes that the media fails to mention.

    https://www.bytheeast.com/2023/10/20/gilles-devers-on-gaza-the-notion-of-terrorism-does-not-exist-under-international-law/amp/