We did not know it would be this bad

Written By: - Date published: 9:10 am, April 11th, 2018 - 173 comments
Categories: greens, health, housing, jacinda ardern, labour, marama davidson - Tags:

Here is video of new Green Party co leader Marama Davidson asking Jacinda Ardern This is why the Greens should retain their Parliamentary questions. So that how bad the current situation is can be told to New Zealand.

The Hansard report for the day neatly captures the issues that this Government is facing:

1. MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader—Green) to the Prime Minister: Ka tū a ia i runga i tana kōrero mō te iti rawa o te mahi haumi i roto ratonga tūmataiti, ā, nā runga i tērā, “we didn’t know it would be this bad” ā, mēnā kua pēnei rawa, ka pēhea te nui o te iti rawa o te mahi haumi nei?

[Does she stand by her statement on underinvestment in public services that “we didn’t know it would be this bad”, and if so, how significant is this underinvestment?]

Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): Yes, absolutely, and much of that we could see from Opposition, as could New Zealanders in everyday life, as they saw individuals sleeping in cars or being unable to access health services. But what we are seeing now is in almost every portfolio I can find other signs of under-investment.

Marama Davidson: Does she agree that the state of the books she inherited from National represents a moral and fiscal deficit, which we see every day in our homeless and unemployed, in our impoverished families, and in our threatened species?

Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes, and being in Government obviously is about making choices and about priorities. The last Government decided that the priority, rather than investing in issues around unemployment and homelessness, was tax cuts—a huge amount of which went to the top 10 percent of income earners. This Government has different priorities.

Marama Davidson: How significant is the under-investment in health in light of revelations that there is sewage and mould running through the walls of Middlemore Hospital, as a direct result of it?

Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I would say Middlemore Hospital is emblematic of a much wider problem. District health boards are telling us that 19 percent of their assets are either in a poor or a very poor state. If you add to that the fact that they’re running what will be an estimated up to $200 million deficit, I think it’s fair to say New Zealanders in every walk of life will be experiencing issues with their health services.

Simon Bridges’ response is nonsensical.  He really is struggling.  From Radio New Zealand:

Mr Bridges said it was clear the government was incredibly worried about delivering on the high expectations it raised going into the election.

“This is why actually you’ve got a Prime Minister who said she would be better than playing politics, but now is looking to drip feed examples.

“I mean it seems to me that effectively what you will have is officialdom out there in our schools and our hospitals looking for doors that don’t shut properly – I mean this is ridiculous.”

What would he expect Labour to do about having one of the country’s major hospitals having sewerage leaking in its walls? Or about still having families living in cars.  Is it too political to point out what an appalling mess the last National Government left this country in?

His statement has all the coherence of a five year old saying “Labour’s being mean”.

Suddenly every beltway issue National and the media have recently thrown at Labour appear to be pretty trivial.  The enormous job required to rebuild our country’s infrastructure is way more important.

173 comments on “We did not know it would be this bad”

  1. Ffloyd 1

    I bet there is a lot more to come about Nationals abysmal governance of NZ. No wonder so many rats deserted the sinking ship. Everybody knew how those ghost surpluses were achieved. The evidence was all around us. Families living in cars. Poor access to health issues. Buying first home as well as decent rentals at decent prices. Much much more. The demolition of our egalitarian society ably assisted by our mostly deficient msn. It’s going to be a big ask for Labour to remedy this appalling state of affairs but if NZ gets in behind them and supports them that would be a long way to helping MNZGA.

    • cleangreen 1.1

      Count on it Ffloyd,

      “I bet there is a lot more to come about Nationals abysmal governance of NZ.”

      National was obviously involved in an agenda to satisfy it’s overseas lenders to “embark on a nine yr undeclared policy 0f austerity”.

      So we went through 9 yrs of screwing down the budgets of every area of public services except for the RONS “Roads of National Significance” for it;’s rich mates to go to their beach place and the Hibiscus Coast Golf clubs”

      Plenty more to come you bet.

  2. veutoviper 2

    Thanks for this post, MS.

    It was a good coincidence that yesterday was Day 37 on the Oral Questions Roster determined by the Parliamentary Business Committee last November which meant that the Green Party got the Question 1 slot the day after Davidson’s selection as the new Green Party Co-Leader – and was therefore able to get the number one position for this question to the PM. (This has only happened once before in this Parliamentary session back on 30 Jan 2018, and will not happen again until Day 63 on 5 July.)

    Of relevance to this issue, yesterday morning at about 7.30am on RNZ Morning Report the PM also addressed underfunding by the previous government in detail as reported in this RNZ News article with the full video of this interview, which expands on the answers she gave later in the day in Question Time to Marama Davidson.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/354629/watch-pm-on-public-sector-underfunding

    In her post Cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM also hinted that she will be releasing details of other areas of underspending in the lead up to the Budget next month as reported in this article also on RNZ News website:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/354617/pm-hints-of-further-public-underfunding-revelations

    – ie The government is going to drip feed stories of public sector underfunding by the previous government in the run-up to next month’s Budget, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has indicated.

    So this underfunding issue is not going to go away anytime soon – even if Coleman for example wishes it would.

    But what does Coleman care? He is giving his Valedictory speech this afternoon at 5.40pm.

  3. Muttonbird 3

    Exactly. Shaw seemed to forget the previous government and now opposition also needs to be held to account!

  4. Stunned Mullet 4

    ” I think it’s fair to say New Zealanders in every walk of life will be experiencing issues with their health services.”

    What utter drivel as someone working in the health sector I find the constant politicking by the parliamentarians sickening I am sure those working in the education sector have the same feeling.

    • patricia bremner 4.1

      Stunned Mullet, I and many in the BOP area are not even on the waiting list with bone on bone hip situations. They are underfunded and two surgeons short.

      So yes Jacinda is right, and most health people we know say that. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with trying to get Bill’s bloody surplus, so he could look good.

      They chose the very people they now accuse of not spending on maintenance.

      • tc 4.1.1

        Tauranga hospital was only designed to serve a Palmerston North sized population. Another appalling mismatch of resources V demand in slimey bridges own back yard.

        The exodus of jaffas along with a retirement boom means it’s probably as bad as Akl now with Waikato closing being up to a year behind in heart echo ultrasounds as one example.

      • cleangreen 4.1.2

        Patricia is right ; as I am still awaiting an operation to my now 9yr old accident causing a hernia;

        My request again was made for service has last year again been shelved by Gisborne chief hospital surgery Dr Hudson again.

        So I will never get an operation for my debilitating hernia for surgery it seems now.

        Stunned mullet neds to see the light and not dismiss our fears of loss of medical services in NZ as yet another casualty of an austerity crazed National Governance.

        Pathetic response was hurtful here.

    • Gabby 4.2

      Are you in PR or payroll Stunted?

      • Stunned mullet 4.2.1

        Grow up Gobby.

        Judging from your piddling humour you might be in need of my services in your later years.

        • Gabby 4.2.1.1

          Did you clean bedpans Stunted? Then the shaking got out of control, I know, I know..

  5. BabaYaga 6

    What is clear is that Joyce was right and Labour lied about their numbers. Perhaps if they weren’t spending millions on ‘conversations’ and actually got off their arses and did something, they might have some credibility. At the moment they just look like whiners.

      • KJT 6.1.1

        Here we have the right wings SOP. lie, deny. Lie, deny.

      • Baba Yaga 6.1.2

        National inherited DHB deficits in 2008. It’s part of being in Government. Like Pike River, the GFC, Earthquakes…

        Labour are dead set useless, and are looking for any excuse. And now they’ve been caught lying about Middlemore…

    • Barfly 6.2

      You really should wear a mask when working with dangerous chemicals.

    • paul andersen 6.3

      you spelt winners wrong….

    • patricia bremner 6.4

      Keep trying Baba Yaga. You are well named.

    • Delia 6.5

      If I thought they did anything right I will tell you, I am not that partisan. There is the odd thing.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.6

      No. What is clear is that National have been lying to us for the last nine years as they dismantled our society for their rich mates.

      • cleangreen 6.6.1

        Perfectly said Draco;

        As the austerity crazed ‘national Parity’ continued with ‘indifference’ to the injury pain and suffering they exacacted upon us all, in their selfishness to make their books falsely seem good; – at our expense.

        National = disgusting.

    • tracey 6.7

      Nice try to derail and distract as you did yesterday.

      BUT you still seem unable to grasp that Coleman has stuffed up, has lied about it and been caught in his lie

      “I didn’t know” wah wah” “I didn’t know” wah wah… oh wait, I signed off spending for a business case to reclad buildings at Middlemore.

      You spent all day yesterday blowing on about Joyce being right and at about 8pm appeared to have no idea Coleman had been caught in his lie, nor had you read to the end of mickey’s post on that occasion.

      Unless you can post evidence that “Labour lied about their numbers”, it is time for you to consider not trolling this thread.

      • Baba Yaga 6.7.1

        Tracey I confronted your posts yesterday and you didn’t respond.

        1. You confused the issues at Middlemore
        https://thestandard.org.nz/the-hidden-infrastructure-fiscal-crisis-gets-real/#comment-1472850

        2. I posted evidence Coleman had funding for the re-cladding.
        https://thestandard.org.nz/the-hidden-infrastructure-fiscal-crisis-gets-real/#comment-1472847

        3. I explained to you that if Coleman is lying, then so are labour.
        https://thestandard.org.nz/the-hidden-infrastructure-fiscal-crisis-gets-real/#comment-1472852

        You didn’t reply to any of those posts.

        In the meantime his release of material seems to be indicating the government and a certain head of a certain DHB should get their stories straight.

      • Baba Yaga 6.7.2

        Tracey you have fundamentally confused the issues at Middlemore, and it is making you look silly.

        Coleman knew about the recladding, and he had approved it.

        Coleman did not know about the other issues, and there is no evidence that he did.

        • Stuart Munro 6.7.2.1

          It was Coleman’s job to know, it’s just that, like all of his cabinet colleagues, he wasn’t doing his job.

          • Baba Yaga 6.7.2.1.1

            “It was Coleman’s job to know…”
            He knew about the recladding. And if you think he should have known, please explain how, when the DHB didn’t even mention the issues in it’s presentation to the Select Committee. You might also want to explain how Jacinda Ardern can claim on one hand to have known all the issues, and yet on the other to be surprised by the issues. She’s been caught in a porky pie. And it’s not the first time.

      • Baba Yaga 6.7.3

        Oh this is delicious:

        “The extent of the leaky and rotting buildings at Middlemore Hospital was not revealed to the current or former Health Ministers.”
        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/353171/hospital-rot-health-minister-has-frank-words-for-dhb

        You were saying Tracey?

        • You_Fool 6.7.3.1

          Looks to me like the current Health Minister is doing his job and actively managing things and not shutting his ears and eyes whilst he says over and over “budget surplus”

          • Baba Yaga 6.7.3.1.1

            That may be the case, but it doesn’t let Tracey off the hook for making false accusations about what the previous Minister knew or didn’t know. David Clark may well turn out to be a good Minister. After all there has to be at least one in this rag tag mob, surely?

            • You_Fool 6.7.3.1.1.1

              So far this ‘rag tag mob’ only has one slight under-performer, which is a definite improvement…

              Then again, just having 1 performing minister would be a infinite improvement over the last lot…

              • Baba Yaga

                One? Are you kidding?
                Clare Curran
                Phil Twyford
                Shane Jones
                Willie Jackson
                Chris Hipkins

                And there’s more. The dishonesty and incompetence is unparalleled.

                • You_Fool

                  Good delusions there…. You are right that the dishonesty and incompetence is unparalleled, as the last lot were so much worse that it is nice to get back to the much better and refreshing trajectories of a Labour led government

    • Marcus Morris 6.8

      You do talk a load of drivel. Only time will prove that, as I am confident it will. Why don’t we have a conversation about the catastrophic and astronomical cost that Muldoon’s Super scheme has had on the finances of this country (for nearly fifty years now)- another example of a National Government’s economic management – and which government deregulated the building industry which is the root cause of the leaky buildings catastrophe. No doubt you will have a easy rationale for all that.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.8.1

        While Muldoon may have been thinking ‘election bribes’ when he brought in the Super scheme – a result has been that the one part of NZ society that has little poverty is the elderly.

        • patricia bremner 6.8.1.1

          Yes agreed, and compared to many countries quite a low cost % wise!!

    • tracey 6.9

      Just because you don’t like what they have done doesn’t mean they haven’t been doing anything.

      It is like you forgot that in Election 2008 (by which time you assert we were already in a recession) national didnt tell us they were going to raise GST, they didn’t tell us what they were going to do to save jobs, deal with the GFC etc, instead they would have a Job Summit in 2009. Bet you pulled your hair out with all that talking they did and all we got was a rail trail that is still unfinished ten years later and the tightening of the noose around working conditions pay and a move to a low wage economy.

      ” “I want to stress that New Zealand starts from a reasonable position in dealing with the uncertainty of our economic outlook.”

      “In New Zealand we have room to respond. This is the rainy day that Government has been saving up for,” he told reporters at the Treasury briefing on the state of the economy and forecasts. ” Jan 2009 Bill English

      “GUYON Can I talk about the real economy for people? They see the cost of living keep going up. They see wages really not- if not quite keeping pace with that, certainly not outstripping it much. I mean, you said at the weekend to the Australia New Zealand Leadership Forum that one of our advantages over Australia was that our wages were 30% cheaper. I mean, is that an advantage now?

      BILL Well, it’s a way of competing, isn’t it? I mean, if we want to grow this economy, we need the capital – more capital per worker – and we’re competing for people as well.

      GUYON So it’s part of our strategy to have wages 30% below Australia?

      BILL Well, they are, and we need to get on with competing for Australia. So if you take an area like tourism, we are competing with Australia. We’re trying to get Australians here instead of spending their tourist dollar in Australia.

      GUYON But is it a good thing?

      BILL Well, it is a good thing if we can attract the capital, and the fact is Australians- Australian companies should be looking at bringing activities to New Zealand because we are so much more competitive than most of the Australian economy.

      GUYON So let’s get this straight – it’s a good thing for New Zealand that our wages are 30% below Australia?

      BILL No, it’s not a good thing, but it is a fact. We want to close that gap up, and one way to close that gap up is to compete, just like our sports teams are doing. This weekend we’ve had rugby league, netball, basketball teams, and rugby teams out there competing with Australia. That’s lifting the standard. They’re closing up the gap.

      GUYON But you said it was an advantage, Minister.

      BILL Well, at the moment, if I go to Australia and talk to Australians, I want to put to them a positive case for investment in New Zealand, because while we are saving more, we’re not saving more fast enough to get the capital that we need to close the gap with Australia. So Australia already has 40 billion of investment in New Zealand. If we could attract more Australian companies, activities here, that would help us create the jobs and lift incomes.” 2011

      Then John key did something many of their supporters find abhorrent today. Some 2 years after taking over as Government he, gulp, blamed the previous labour Government

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/general/key-blames-labour-for-his-govts-wage-gap-failings-2010072917#ixzz2oI7U067s

      Then in 2013

      ““Australian workers will get a 2.6 per cent rise to $A622.20 a week or $NZ750.50 at the prevailing exchange rate. That’s $A16.37 ($NZ19.75) an hour for Aussies’ 38-hour working week compared with $NZ13.75 an hour or $NZ550 for Kiwis’ 40-hour working week. I note that the Labour Party spokesperson on Labour issues is wringing her hands in despair at this news. I think we should celebrate because a rise in the minimum wage in Australia makes our labour force more competitive and will be helpful in attracting investment and jobs to New Zealand. About 18 months ago CHB Mayor Peter Butler and I approached Australian based food processors with the suggestion of moving across the Tasman to establish plants in New Zealand to process food produced under newly irrigated areas. We established that Australian food processors are interested to do this when our new irrigation is in place. A driver from the Australian perspective is that the New Zealand labour force is well educated, more productive and less unionised than their Australian counterparts.” – John Hayes, National MP, 5 June 2013”

      So let us stop pretending that national are these amazing guardians of the economy, that the only way is their way, because it is pretty clear today who they work for, and whose future got brighter, as we grapple with

      Growing teacher shortages
      Midwife shortages
      Nurses strikes
      NS failing to make an iota of difference to the problem nats said they would solve
      Dunedin Hospital still on hold, and was only trotted out each election by nats then placed on hold again
      Christchurch hospital opening with insufficient beds due to Ministry of Health preferring its numbers to the DHB’s numbers. The latter turning out to be accurate.

      By all means “like” national and “don’t like labour but stop behaving as though opinion is fact and that you come only from a factual perspective not an ideological one.

      And as for that decade of deficits

      https://thestandard.org.nz/who-was-the-better-economic-manager-helen-clark-or-john-key/#comment-955723

      • WILD KATIPO 6.9.1

        … ” national didnt tell us they were going to raise GST, they didn’t tell us what they were going to do to save jobs, deal with the GFC etc, instead they would have a Job Summit in 2009 ”…

        Whoa ! Slow up , tracey !!!

        We got a bicycle path from that Job Summit in 2009 !!!

        Cant complain , mustn’t grumble ,… ” now kids, where will we sleep tonight ?… under the MacDonalds street lamps or over at the Foodtown carpark? ”…

      • BabaYaga 6.9.2

        So you’re best response is that National coined the phrase? Treasury forecasts, Tracey. A recession before the impacts of the GFC. A toxic combination of high interest rates and inflation. Cullen ran a good economy just about into the ground.

        • Stuart Munro 6.9.2.1

          It’s only natural that Treasury resented Cullen – he consistently outperformed their predictions – unlike English, who consistently fell short. In fact Treasury predictions for most of my lifetime have a worse strike rate than chance. Which means a random guy off the street will be on average more reliable.

          • Baba Yaga 6.9.2.1.1

            “…he consistently outperformed their predictions…”

            Yes, with higher inflation, higher interest rates, higher private debt, tanking growth…

    • Matthew Whitehead 6.10

      Standard Trump tactics, lie and then accuse the other side of fake news when they catch you.

  6. Delia 7

    They have starved everything and more will come out. The Human Rights Commission, which in my opinion, is one of our most important departments, can barely function thanks to Key and his dislike of it.

    • Exkiwiforces 7.1

      Yes Delia, you are on the money with your comment.

      I’m not sure if the fourth estate has picked this up, but the No Mates National Party didn’t even allocated a single cent to the re-equipment/ upgrade of the NZDF as outline in the last white paper and it even gets better as the P3 Orion replacement was all but signed off by the No Mates Party, but again not a single cent was allocated to this project!!

      It makes me wonder how No Mates Party was going to fund DWP and other essential services with what’s been uncovered so far by the new government?

      As Ad said “Beggars belief”

  7. Ad 8

    Beggars belief.

  8. alwyn 9

    Gosh. If Marama Davidson really thinks that the questions Labour supplied her with are accurate, as in
    “How significant is the under-investment in health in light of revelations that there is sewage and mould running through the walls of Middlemore Hospital, as a direct result of it?”
    she really has only one option.

    She should be asking “Why is this Government leaving this hospital open?”
    If they really think that things are as bad as she is claiming she really should be demanding that it be closed instantly.
    Or perhaps she doesn’t really care about the people in its catchment area. Mostly from Mangere aren’t they?

    On the other hand the current Government could easily fix it. The highest figure I have seen is $25 mill.
    Just cut the money they are giving to the America’s Cup.
    At the moment the taxpayer is going to cough up $114 mill. Just cut it back to a mere $90 mill and fix the hospital. Or would that upset Helen Clark whose mates are probably going to share in the $40 mill that is the “host contribution fee”?

    “The expected contributions are $114m from the Crown including a $40 million host contribution fee”
    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/agreement-reached-america%E2%80%99s-cup-venue
    The worst that could happen is that the cup goes ahead here and that the Minister’s don’t get invited to parties held by the competitors.
    The best thing that could possibly occur is that they go somewhere else to race and we would save the whole $114 mill from the taxpayer and also all the Auckland ratepayer’s $98.5 mill.
    That would be a win-win for everyone.

    • Muttonbird 9.1

      The highest figure I have seen is $25 mill.

      No, that’s the figure you got from Kiwiblog which is where you get all your news.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      Man, you really do talk shit don’t you?

      Probably in your efforts to distract from the disaster that National (you know, that bunch of fuckwits you voted for) left the country in.

      • alwyn 9.2.1

        Do you ever have anything relevant to say?
        Or is simple abuse your only means of communication?

        • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1.1

          The way you twist facts and reality and slant statistics is simply abuse,- and THEN ask us to believe you !

          You say you work within the medical profession. Do you actually give a fuck about people?

          • alwyn 9.2.1.1.1

            I fear you are confused you silly little man.
            I do not, and never have claimed to work within the medical profession.
            I suppose I should ask you.
            ” Do you actually give a fuck about ever telling the truth?”
            I ask this because the way you invent facts and reality makes it very hard when you ask us to believe you.

            • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1.1.1.1

              1) … ” Or is simple abuse your only means of communication?” …

              2) …” I fear you are confused you silly little man”…

              3) … ” I do not, and never have claimed to work within the medical profession”…

              …………………………………

              1) You seem to do a pretty good job of abuse yourself…

              2) As above.

              3) Exactly. So why is it that you talk through a hole in your arse, denying facts of those that do , ? … if not for being a complete contrarian and National party sycophantic tribalist?

              OH ,… and 4 ) Youd best be in for a very long period of your denials because the facts that I am quoting happen to be quite true. And they are not my facts, – they are the facts of those more qualified to weigh in on a matter than you. Such as those who actually DO work in the medical profession.

              So now we see that they give a fuck about people and you , my friend , patently DO NOT!

              Oh , and here’s a reminder … just a lil one all for you. Consider it a gift from the Katipo.

              New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
              http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

              • alwyn

                “You seem to do a pretty good job of abuse yourself”.
                I tend to reply to people in the same manner as they comment to me.
                If, as you are doing, your comments tend to be a fact-free diatribe I tend to assume that it is the only thing you understand and I will try and respond in a way I think you may understand.
                If you actually come up with any sensible arguments I take them seriously as I assume that you have thought about the topic and have something to say that makes some sense. So far you haven’t.

                And for the umpteenth time when you describe me as a “National party sycophantic tribalist” you are living in fairy land.
                By the way the only “fact” you gave is a fallacy.

                • Well , you seem pretty butthurt, old fella.

                  As for ‘facts’. They have already been mentioned. As for what I have brought to the table are reminders of the other nefarious deeds carried out under the 9 year National party regime.

                  And again , – they are not my words or observations but of those far more qualified to speak on the matter than either you or I.

                  THAT is what you are up against.

                  I also notice, – that many of your comments are conducted in a pompous , arrogant belittling sarcasm of others whose opinions are different to your own. You sound like some sort of wannabe toffy nosed elitist. As such , I reply to the same with like comments.

                  Just as you claim to do to others.

                  Perhaps if you didn’t set yourself up as some sort of pompous jackass know it all , you wouldn’t draw such criticism in the first place. But then again, being a pompous jackass goes with the territory of being a far right wing nut job.

                  Just sayin…

                  Anyways – last comment , your boring and I dont want to derail this blog any further.

                  Toorah.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.2.1.1.2

            “You say you work within the medical profession.”

            I think(?) Stunned Mullet said something to that effect. But the RW trolls all do start to blur together I know….

            • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1.1.2.1

              Alas they do… they are like… little wind up toys… or clones…

              Constantly repeating bland , rote learned statements in complete denial of even the most glaring facts and reality’s… I swear that if you could hear them in real life they would sound like Daleks running around screaming ” Exterminate ! Exterminate ! ”…

              And perhaps the only reason they are worth replying to is the sheer inanities they offer… its almost better than British comedy’s some days…

              🙂

              • Incognito

                They share many similarities with the Borg Collective, including the near-complete absence of personal responsibility. If they don’t like something , they’ll try to assimilate or destroy it. Oh, I almost forgot their most important characteristic: they don’t have a sense of humour 😉

        • adam 9.2.1.2

          That’s pretty rich when your opening statement is lie about someone alwyn, pretty bloody rich.

          • alwyn 9.2.1.2.1

            I haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about.
            On the other hand I don’t think you do either.
            Both statements in the comment you are replying to were questions. It is very difficult to actually, while still preserving any logical meaning to class a question as being a lie.
            See my comment to Katipo just before this for how I tend to reply to people.

            • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1.2.1.1

              … ” I haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about ” …

              Ummmm… I don’t want to be the agent to point this out, but,… that state of mind seems to be a consistent factor in most of your rants…

              Particularly when you have been proven wrong and cannot admit it. And becomes even worse when basic ethics come into play regarding social fairness and equity issues ,… when it threatens your sycophancy with the National party…

              Other times,… I just think that you are kind of ,… a bit ‘slow’.

              • alwyn

                Well he was replying to this comment of mine.
                “Do you ever have anything relevant to say?
                Or is simple abuse your only means of communication?”.
                That is it. The whole comment.
                How can either of them be what adam seems to think is a “lie”?
                The answer to either of them may be, in DTB’s opinion, NO, but it doesn’t make either of them a “lie”.
                Go back to sleep.

                • Funny to watch you start to argue about semantics and the nuances of the English language… he said , she said…

                  🙂

                  So what started off as an attempted troll and derailment objective now has you hurling insults like a child and totally off topic of what you were trying to derail originally !

                  L0L0L !

                  Mission accomplished, Houston !

                  And we do believe there is a Santa Claus…

            • adam 9.2.1.2.1.2

              Must be hard, being so smug, do you sniff your own farts as well?

              But because you said this lie.

              “If Marama Davidson really thinks that the questions Labour supplied her with are accurate, ”

              As I said, prove it. Otherwise you have defamed

              Marama.

              • veutoviper

                Adam, can you prove that the questions were not supplied?

                Now I don’t believe for one moment that they were, but neither you nor I nor Alwyn can prove this one way or the other – unless for example, Marama Davidson and/or Jacinda Ardern or someone else in a position of responsibility for parliamentary questions and answers (eg someone in DPMC) provides a valid response to the question as to whether the questions were supplied by Labour to the Green Party/Marama Davidson such as a witnessed affidavit.

                So your response is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

                • adam

                  The onus is on the person who makes the accusation.

                  Otherwise they end up like you veutoviper, right wing tools.

                  • veutoviper

                    The onus is on the person who makes the accusation.

                    You are the one calling him a liar – ie. you are the one making that accusation. So prove it, as per your own assertion.

                    But as I have pointed out you cannot prove that any more than he can prove that the questions were given to Davidson by Labour – without confirmation/denial by Davidson and/or Labour.

                    You probably have not seen it but I have replied to alwyn at https://thestandard.org.nz/we-did-not-know-it-would-be-this-bad/#comment-1473315 disagreeing with his assertion that the questions were supplied to Davidson by Labour. Yes, a bit of an essay, but I have set out my reasoning for my POV in detail. He disagrees and has set out his reasoning. We have now basically agreed to disagree, amicably on both sides.

                    Otherwise they end up like you veutoviper, right wing tools.

                    Me, a right wing tool? That is so far from the reality, LOL.

                    BUT you have accused me of being a “right wing tool”. By your own reasoning, the onus is on you to prove that. Otherwise you are defaming me. (Or is it slander? No. See my reply to your 9.8.2.1.)

                    From time to time you make some good contributions on here, adam. But these are often overridden by the fact that you just cannot seem to stop yourself resorting to personal abuse etc such as calling other people names, when they have a different point of view or disagree with you. Then when they dispute this with you or reply in kind, you run off to the moderators. The sort of behaviour most children grow out of at a very young age,

                    As you are aware, I am not the only one who has pointed this resorting to personal abuse out to you recently. Monty did so just a week or so ago and there have been others.

                    What I do believe is that throwing around accusations like “liar”, “right wing tool” etc are ‘attack as a form of defence’ tactics of people with little maturity, knowledge and also often lacking self confidence. Such actions achieve nothing and discredit the person who does it – eg you – more than the person you accuse. .

                    Come on adam, I believe that you can be better than this, otherwise I would not even bother replying to you.

        • patricia bremner 9.2.1.3

          Actually Alwyn talking rudely about nothing much in a sneering fashion is what you do often. Very predictable.

        • Draco T Bastard 9.2.1.4

          I always say relevant things like pointing out your lying and BS as you try to distract from the mess that your decisions left the country in.

    • Ad 9.3

      Dunedin hospital is a better example. About $1.6b and rising .

      The Counties-Manukau Board should be fired for incompetence, but really in the whole health CAPEX budget this is chump change. Not a good example for anyone to use other than in televisual terms.

      • alwyn 9.3.1

        I have no idea where you get the $1.6 m from
        National did announce the new Hospital in Dunedin in August last year, before the election at a cost of up to $1.4 million. He also said it was only an estimate and any sensible person knows that initial estimates always rise.
        You can hardly claim that Labour didn’t know about it can you?
        https://www.national.org.nz/dunedin_largest_new_hospital_build_in_nz_history

        Of course Middlemore is chump change. Labour are however going to make a great play of it so that they will have some, even if stupid, story to tell for why they are going to break their pre-election promises about taxes. They have to break their promises or else borrow like crazy. Not expecting to win they simply promised anything that came into their pointy little heads with no actual allowance for how to pay for it..

        • tracey 9.3.1.1

          How much was it going to cost when they promised it in elections 2011 and 2014?

          • alwyn 9.3.1.1.1

            I can’t imagine they had promised a brand new hospital in 2011 under any circumstances. Do I need to remind me of an event just up the road early in that year?
            That was of course a major difference between National and the current rabble. National didn’t promise things that they couldn’t pay for. The CoL simply promised everything to everyone without having the faintest idea how to pay. They never anticipated winning you see.
            I have no idea what was the situation in 2014. Do you?

            • Matthew Whitehead 9.3.1.1.1.1

              I do- they had promised a “major upgrade.”

              https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/hospital-upgrade-tipped

              • alwyn

                So they were willing to provide a bit of improvement in 2011, a major upgrade an 2014 and a complete new hospital in 2017?
                Obviously the Heinz or Guinness advertising slogans were true.
                “Good things come to those who wait”. Long wait, but.
                Thanks for the info.
                What was promised in the preceding election years?
                New rubbish bins in 2002, perhaps a larger carpark in 2005 and a new out-patients clinic in 2008?

    • alwyn

      Nice article in the NZ Herald from Brian Rudman , – slightly off topic from the issue directly at hand , – but more evidence of the vicious cynicism of National’s 9 year regime.

      And their mouthpiece flunky known as Mike Hosking . Artificially low wages ( remember the Hobbit Laws ? ) and withholding from spending on infrastructure was par for the course under National while awarding tax cuts to the already rich and wealthy.

      And now Labour / NZ First are left picking up the pieces. Good on Marama for giving the opportunity to expose these National charlatans.

      Brian Rudman: Mike Hosking’s minimum wage cropper – NZ Herald
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz › Business

      • alwyn 9.4.1

        That link doesn’t go to an article by Rudman, or Hosking for that matter.
        Is it actually about Middlemore? If you tell me it is I will try and find the story. Otherwise if it about Hosking’s general views or his dinging his car I’m not really interested.

        • WILD KATIPO 9.4.1.1

          For one with soooo much ( self assumed ) wisdom and insight, you are in fact ,… decidedly quite thick.

          I shall therefore give you instructions on how to utilize basic computer skills.

          1) Copy ALL of the text , – not just the blue highlighted regions.

          2) Use ‘ Paste’ to transfer it onto a search engine such as Google.

          3) A page will come up , of which you can then click on a link to that site.

          And as for Middlemore … oh no you dont. You wont be getting away with that one so easily. Middlemore may be the central topic of this article but it is but a symptom and hideous evidence of the National partys larger deliberate mismanagement of our tax paid for infrastructure.

          And you know as well as I do that the REAL REASON they did that was to justify the introduction of the privatisation of those services.

          Hence :

          Private Prisons

          Private schools

          Private hospitals

          All pushed for under the Key administration.

          Whats the matter , alwyn ? ,… disappointed you lost the opportunity to invest in the goldmine when National lost ?

          And fuck all those poor people who couldn’t afford to pay for medical attention , eh ? – hey ! – they can just die in the streets like they get to do in America,… oh wait !… they already do here … they’re called the homeless.

          • alwyn 9.4.1.1.1

            If you are going to put in a link why don’t you learn to do it properly?
            Why should I have to cut and paste and then choose what seems to be the relevant article from a Google list of millions because you are incompetent?
            It really is easy for you to set up the link properly.
            Hint. After you post the comment try out the link. If it doesn’t work you can correct it. Did you ever think of checking your links? Thought not.

            • WILD KATIPO 9.4.1.1.1.1

              …” Why should I have to cut and paste and then choose what seems to be the relevant article from a Google list of millions because you are incompetent? ”…

              Are you LAZY ?

              Do you not have enough nous to work out the top ones usually the most relevant or that simple logical analysis and deduction done in mere seconds will lead you there?

              Do we have to spoon feed you all the way , alwyn? Hold your hand in case you get lost ?!!?

              Is this the state of far right wing nut job intelligence?

              Geez… no wonder the country was rooted under National.

              • veutoviper

                I suggest that you learn how to copy and post links – it is certainly much easier that your suggested complicated long winded process.

                All you are doing is showing your own ignorance.

                Hint – when reading the article you want to get the link to, simply go up to the link box, right click and copy. Then paste into your comment here or whatever else you want to do with it. Two clicks.

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12029728

                And – as alwyn said – then check your link during the Edit time which allows you to correct it if necessary.

                PS – to check simply select the link, copy, go to a new tab, paste and go.

    • faroutdude 9.5

      exactly alwyn.
      What a weasel our puppet pm is.
      Typical leftie disconnect however – deliberately make increasing amounts of people dependent on the state for their every need, take all personal responsibilty from them, and whine like hell when the inevitable results. Like many I was prepared to give this COL a chance, but they are a complete disaster, and now whine about it all being someone else’s fault.

      • tracey 9.5.1

        Personal responsibility, like

        Coleman lying, getting caught, and saying nothing?

        Bridges, deliberately suppressing a report so it wouldn’t appear during election, getting caught and becoming leader of national

        Finlayson deliberately obstructing the obtaining of evidence by a defendant, remains shadow AG

        Collins…

        Smith…

        Bennett…

        English (double dip and “forgetting” he made a police statement)

        Key….

        Increasing teacher shortages
        Increasing midwife shortages
        Underpaid nurses
        Failing hospitals
        Ten year delay to Dunedin Hospital
        Mental health services starved of resources

        Or do you mean some other kind of personal responsibility?

        You wrote

        “now whine about it all being someone else’s fault.”

        “National would still be revealing its tax cuts package on Wednesday despite the books being worse than they feared” John key seemingly blaming Labour…

      • WILD KATIPO 9.5.2

        … ”deliberately make increasing amounts of people dependent on the state for their every need, take all personal responsibilty from them, and whine like hell when the inevitable results ”…

        ………………………………………………………..

        You never were ‘going to give this COL (coalition) a chance’ ,…

        At least try and be honest about it. You had no such intention ,… and btw , … the above statement you made? Bullshit.

        Many have spent time underlining JUST WHY people have ‘become dependent on the state’… such as Nationals deliberate underfunding of so many vital infrastructures – from schools to prisons , hospitals and depts such as the Human Rights Review Tribunal…

        Tribunal set up to protect human rights says it is now abusing those …
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz › New Zealand

        There was a REASON why family’s were sleeping in cars and garages while the rich at the same time were awarded huge tax cuts and guaranteed that their employees could still be ripped off legally by paying them substandard, below the costs of living wages…

        And that REASON is National.

      • Gabby 9.5.3

        Ponyboy’s gone now dudie. Weasel his mates? They’re gone too.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.5.4

        Another RWNJ lying to protect their decisions which has made NZ worse off.

    • tracey 9.6

      Hmmm close the 10 buildings at Middlemore. Interesting. Where would the patients go? To Acurity, which owns Bowen, Royston and Wakefield private Hospitals? Or here? There is more than one way to privatise health ey alwyn 😉

      If at first you don’t succeed run the services down til the only option is to have taxpayers fund private services.

      http://www2.nzherald.co.nz/hamilton-news/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503366&objectid=11923944

    • Matthew Whitehead 9.7

      Oh yeah, Labour totally told her to imply they’re not raising taxes when they should be, lol, and then totally knew every detail that National had hidden away in the finances before they came out.

      Stop trolling, Alwyn, it looks bad for your lot. You can’t shift responsibility here, it’s clear nothing your lot is desperately trying will stick, and National will be stuck in opposition for a while. Get used to it I guess. *shrug*

      • Chuck 9.7.1

        “and National will be stuck in opposition for a while.”

        Agree…at least for the next 2.5 years or so :).

        Labour (and the Greens) banged on endlessly while in opposition to everything and everyone being underfunded. So why did your lot not make sure they had a lazy 5 billion or whatever ready to inject ASAP?

        That 3 billion for Winston / NZF re-election fund could be put to better use…just saying. Or paying for rich kids to go to uni maybe…a hundred million + to rich man’s sport (boat racing)…I could go on.

        The Greens could take a principled stand and withdraw support unless Ardern taxes or borrows more…

    • adam 9.8

      How long is alwyn going to get away with defaming people on this site? Once again, he is out right lying about a person – this is not the first time.

      A retraction would be nice, but like the last time I won’t expect one.

      So alwyn I think at this point you have to prove that labour gave Marama the question. Otherwise it’s just slander.

      • tracey 9.8.1

        Doesnt alwyn like people to have evidence of their assertions? Seems odd he woukd make such a comment without his own

        • alwyn 9.8.1.1

          I realised that adam was naïve, but I thought you were rather more informed Tracey.
          All patsy questions are prepared to allow the Minister being questioned the chance to give a prepared answer. The Minister always knows what the supplementary questions are going to be because they are written in the Minister’s office. That way they have the exact wording of what they want to get across on hand.
          In fact, if you look at the supplementary questions that Davidson asked you would be insulting her if you thought they were her own work. She would laugh at you for thinking she was so dumb that the were the best she could do.
          She may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but she isn’t really as thick as those questions would make you think.
          At least I hope she isn’t.

          • adam 9.8.1.1.1

            Come on moderators this is getting beyond a joke.

            alwyn lies, then to cover that, they lie again and throws in personal abuse as well.

            Edit: and once again makes an unfounded accusation against someone, then will not provide proof when asked.

            • Matthew Whitehead 9.8.1.1.1.1

              I know for a fact that this behaviour is not being looked upon kindly.

            • veutoviper 9.8.1.1.1.2

              Adam, see my reply to you at 9.2.1.2.1.2 above.

              Its a case of the pot (you) calling the kettle (alwyn) black – unless you can prove that the questions were not supplied or he can prove that they were.

              And if I were you, I would not talk about others throwing in personal abuse … pot …kettle.

              • adam

                I know that the Green co-leader is an intelligent human being who has her own agency. Andl let me repeat this, the onus is on the person making the accusation that a member from an different party is taking direction/instruction from another party. Which is the statement alwyn made.

                So veutoviper, the term you’re looking for is false equivalence, you right wing tool.

                • veutoviper

                  I know that the Green co-leader is an intelligent human being who has her own agency.

                  I don’t disagree with you on that, adam. I have a lot of respect for Marama Davidson (as I have always had for Metiria Turei.)

                  As I have already said to you here https://thestandard.org.nz/we-did-not-know-it-would-be-this-bad/#comment-1473255 – and to alwyn here https://thestandard.org.nz/we-did-not-know-it-would-be-this-bad/#comment-1473315 – I do not believe that the questions were given to Davidson by Labour.

                  However, what I am really sick of is your habit of personally abusing other people, alwyn and myself included, whenever anyone has a different point of view to you or disagrees with you.

                  And I will stand up against such behaviour. Especially when you do exactly what you are accusing the other person of doing – by accusing that person of lying, or defaming them by calling them names etc, etc.

                  As you have done yet again calling me a ‘right wing tool’ in the comment I am replying to now.

                  See my other replies to you at for more on this – and your lack of knowledge of NZ defamation law :
                  https://thestandard.org.nz/we-did-not-know-it-would-be-this-bad/#comment-1473850
                  https://thestandard.org.nz/we-did-not-know-it-would-be-this-bad/#comment-1473851

                  • adam

                    Well sorry for you, hint, don’t engage with me if you can’t handle the jandle. It’s not tiddlywinks.

                    As for your b.s and defending a right wing troll, that makes you a tool. It’s a description of what you are doing, not a term of abuse. But if you take it as such, well, be offended.

                    Scroll past, many people do. I scroll past you most of the time, I find what you right tiresome and desperately middle class, I was not surprised you were/are a law student. I won’t be offended if you scroll past, I don’t expect anyone to read anything I put here. Just happy a few do.

                    As for the likes of alwyn, and pretty much all the right wing nutjobs here they lie, lie, and then lie some more. If you don’t like me calling them on that, again sorry for you. And again be offended, you should get use to being offended, life is like that.

          • WILD KATIPO 9.8.1.1.2

            … ” I realised that adam was naïve, but I thought you were rather more informed Tracey”…

            Being a bit condescending as usual , alwyn ,… and may I add, …to advance your own skewed and jaundiced arguments?

            Like this :

            … ” All patsy questions are prepared to allow the Minister being questioned the chance to give a prepared answer. The Minister always knows what the supplementary questions are going to be because they are written in the Minister’s office. That way they have the exact wording of what they want to get across on hand ” …

            I presume you have PROOF,… and not just your sour grapes assumptions which consistently come through loud and clear on this site.Sour grapes because now National has no real power to change things and you and your ilk stand to lose your pecuniary advantages – and horrors!- may have to pay more TAX !

            And this :

            …” She may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but she isn’t really as thick as those questions would make you think”…

            Now then ,… what was it you said to Draco T about ….

            … ” Do you ever have anything relevant to say?
            Or is simple abuse your only means of communication? ”…

            Seems we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black , ladies and gentlemen. And lets talk frankly now… your statements about Marama Davidson are a less than veiled put down in a lame attempt to paint a picture of her being thick/slow/ less intelligent.

            Wont work.

            Why?

            Because she is none of those things and you have already taken up long term residency in that position .

            My condolences.

            • alwyn 9.8.1.1.2.1

              That’s nice dear.

              • alwyn

                By the way for someone who said, at 7.36 pm
                “Anyways – last comment ”
                Did you really have to repeat your sentiments at 7.48 pm?
                And again at 8.05 pm?
                And again at 8.10 pm?
                And again at 9.20 pm?
                And again at 9.39 pm?
                And again at 9.53 pm?

                • Yeah mate ,… you are great to bait and have a giggle at. Couldn’t resist.

                  Please ! Furnish more idiocy.

                  I just dont think you will be getting any bonuses from your masters tonight, were you on the plonk last night or something?

              • More snide ( and resigned ) one liners?

                Wasn’t it you that accused Draco of insulting remarks?

                Or doesn’t snide , contemptuous put downs rank in the far right wing nut jobs list of insulting remarks?

                Maybe thats the problem, eh?

                Hypocrisy at its finest. And the sad thing?

                You cant even tell when your doing it.

                • veutoviper

                  See my reply to your comment at 9.4.1.1.1.1

                  I really suggest that you stop exposing yourself this way – or it may seem like a case of you “furnishing more idiocy” and “you can’t even tell when your doing it”.

          • veutoviper 9.8.1.1.3

            alwyn, I am sure that people here will think that I agree with you that the questions asked by Marama Davidson of the PM were patsy questions prepared by Labour, because of my responses in this thread to Adam and Wild Katipo.

            First, I do not believe for one moment that the questions were prepared by Labour — but as I have said to Adam, neither you, nor I nor Adam can prove whether they were or not without evidence supplied by Davidson and/or Ardern or someone else in Labour. (See my responses to Adam at 9.8.1.1.1.2 and 9.8.2)

            Second, as per my 2 above, it was rather coincidental that the Greens got the No 1 question on Tuesday as per Day 37 of the Oral Question Roster which you and I have discussed before – as QT nerds LOL. So this was the perfect time for Marama Davidson to show her ability to ask questions of the government from her new position as Co-Leader without being encumbered with Ministerial responsibility.

            There already had been considerable exposure in the previous 24 hours of the underfunding the previous government had left the current government – eg in the PM’s post Cabinet press conference the day before (Monday) and her early morning appearances on TV and radio on Tuesday morning. So this was a perfect subject for this Question slot for the Greens and in particular, Davidson.

            Third, IMHO the primary question and the supplementary questions had all certainly been pre-prepared, but again IMHO by the Green Party – not Labour. In my opinion this was obvious from the lack of deviation by Davidson in asking the supplementary questions from what appeared to be a prepared list (can be seen in the video but not in the Hansard record). These supplementary questions did not take account of what the reply had been to the previous question (primary or supplementary).

            Ardern’s responses both to the primary question and supplementary questions appeared to be very well prepared – but why not? This was the subject du jour and she had been speaking about it almost exclusively over the last 24 hours.

            While it might seem to some that this was because she knew what the supplementary questions would be, again I don’t believe that she did – but that she did a good job of anticipating what these would be.

            Ardern is a well seasoned debater and her answer to the primary question anticipated the supplementary questions – a skill she has honed well from her debating experience and IMHO an intrinsic ability to do this*.

            [*This is also something people (Ministerial advisers etc) who prepare answers to parliamentary questions and similar are taught to do, by imagining you are the person asking the main question and asking yourself what you would follow up with in the way of subsequent questions. ]

            Finally, if you read the exchange in writing – eg Hansard – it could appear that the questions were patsys intended to allow the PM to speak at length on the situation re underfunding.

            However, if you watch this same exchange in the video which I have several times, there is actually an undercurrent of slight aggressiveness on both sides which is not able to be conveyed in a written record. This is in body language and voice tone – not in the words used. Davidson was making a stand of sorts; Ardern was setting her position in response. So while there was an element of ‘patsy’ in the exchange, IMHO there was also more going on covertly. (No, this is not conspiracy type thinking – just a sorting out of positions,)

            I had also expected that before answering the primary question, Ardern would express congratulations to Davidson on her Co-Leader appointment – as she did to Bridges, and others in similar circumstances when she first replied in person to Questions etc from that person in the House (even though she had already sent a message of congratulations etc).

            She did not do this to Davidson in their first face to face on Tuesday (although I understand she had sent a message on Sunday.)

            So, i don’t actually agree with your position on this one, alwyn.

            IMHO Davidson is very intelligent and sharp. She has had considerable experience in asking questions in QTime particularly in the last Parliament, so inexperience is not an issue.

            This was a big occasion and a change in position for Davidson, and I thought she did OK if a little stilted in not adjusting her supplementary questions in response to Ardern’s replies. She is quite able to do this from seeing her do so previously, but as suggested above, IMHO this was as much about setting positions and parameters, as about the questions themselves.

            Re my responses to Adam, these were pot/kettle answers for fairness, and my response to Wild Katipo at 9.4.1.1.1.1 is ‘what it is’.

            • alwyn 9.8.1.1.3.1

              I am intrigued by one point. We both saw the event and have interpreted it in opposite ways.
              You say
              ” In my opinion this was obvious from the lack of deviation by Davidson in asking the supplementary questions from what appeared to be a prepared list (can be seen in the video but not in the Hansard record). These supplementary questions did not take account of what the reply had been to the previous question (primary or supplementary)”

              You interpret it as illustrating that they were actually Marama Davidson’s questions.
              I take it the other way. My reasoning was. If Davidson had created the questions she would have been interested in the responses and hence she would, or at least could, have altered the next question to reflect the answer she had received.
              She didn’t seem to. She seemed to simply read out the next question in the list. This to me implied that she had been given the questions and was asking them with no apparent interest in what the answer to the previous question had been. If you have to ask the next question in a precise form why even listen to the replies?

              This seemed to me to be evidence that the form of the supplementary questions was prescribed and she couldn’t change them even if she might have wanted to. This I then interpreted as meaning that she had been provided with them by Ardern’s office.

              Funny how two people can see the same thing and interpret its meaning in opposite ways.
              Sorry about the delay in this response. I hope you see it.

              • veutoviper

                Hi alwyn – a good point which I would like to discuss but not tonight. Its been a long day with hospital appointments as well as other things. But will get back to you. Cheers for now.

                • alwyn

                  I’ll add one other thing, but I don’t expect to see an answer today.
                  In fact I can’t because as soon as I post this I am signing off.

                  You also said
                  “However, if you watch this same exchange in the video which I have several times, there is actually an undercurrent of slight aggressiveness on both sides which is not able to be conveyed in a written record”.

                  That can also be interpreted differently.
                  Davidson is quite likely to be unhappy if you has the chance to ask her first question as party leader and she is then told what it is. She is going to be put out.
                  Ardern on the other hand may be worrying that Davidson is going to go off the Reservation and won’t do what she has been told to do. She is also likely to be a bit strained. As you propose this is a setting of positions. Ardern is setting a line that she is the PM. Davidson, although co-leader, is merely part of a junior party. Ardern is pushing, and I think succeeding, in showing Marama who is boss. Davidson may not like it but she has been forced to acquiesce and ask the questions she has been told to ask.

                  Anyway, how are we ever going to know what really happened. I don’t think any of the parties concerned is going to say.

                  • veutoviper

                    As you say, we both saw the same thing and interpreted it differently – not unusual as people like policemen, judges etc know well. I understand what you are saying, and in reality either of us could be right, but we will probably never know.

                    So let’s just watch what happens in the future – and continue our exchange of impressions etc. Unlike some here I actually enjoy interacting with people with different views to my own. Like life generally, viva la difference!

                    And lets not mention that Question 8 yesterday was a Green Party rostered one but used by National’s Todd Muller to question Shaw as the Minister for Climate Change on the impact on New Zealand’s emissions of stopping offshore oil and gas exploration. Or Question 12 to him as Statistics Minister re the Census.

      • veutoviper 9.8.2

        Adam, see my reply to you at 9.2.1.2.1.2 above.

        Its a case of the pot (you) calling the kettle (alwyn) black – unless you can prove that the questions were not supplied or he can prove that they were.

  9. CHCOff 10

    Respectably to all involved here, but it wasn’t rocket science to expect the situation to be a flaming train wreck.

    That’s why given the circumstances, supporters should have had , or been expecting, a band-aid approach to most areas and a starting at scratch proposition while the govt. finds it’s feet while keeping it’s head above water and hopefully puts it’s few eggs into new bountiful baskets of the future.

  10. tracey 11

    For those on the right who are decrying Labour for blaming National for not revealing how bad things were, a short quiz.

    Who said

    We will forge on with our plans “despite the books being worse than we feared.”?

    Clue, it was not a Labour Prime Minister.

  11. mac1 12

    And with the enquiry just announced into Operation Burnham, how much worse will it get?

    Very encouraging to see more accountability that might just strike fear into our malefactors, in many fields.

    • Yes, … and you see ,… a topic such as this cannot be simply contained within the issue directly at hand.

      It is like the proverbial snowball slowly starting its rapid descent downhill. We have an issue, here, … and that issue is all about a military operation that was,… a straight out revenge attack , and whereby it was personally signed off by our former Prime Minister John Key. An operation that resulted in the deaths of over a dozen civilian non combatants, – including small children.

      And there are a number of other individuals culpable, – such as Jerry Mateparae, Lieutenant General Tim Keating , Bill English in refusing an inquiry and basically stonewalling the true facts …

      This little child will never see another sunrise, nor have a family , nor see her grandchildren.

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screen-Shot-2018-03-15-at-10.25.52-AM-1.png

      And to date?

      justice has not been seen to have been done at all.

      Meanwhile, – those involved have all ‘resigned’, ‘retired ‘, ‘stepped down’ and have gotten off scot free. And continue on with lives of position and opulence.

  12. AsleepWhileWalking 13

    Si-Bridge is suggesting National had the situation under control by the incremental lowering of public expectations. Interesting strategy but it did result in many giving up hope.

    • tracey 13.1

      But how could Bridges know that when Coleman said he didnt know anything about the problems?

  13. Brian Tregaskin 14

    I wonder how we are going to get out of this mess.
    We will have to increase our debt I reckon,
    As I said yesterday the last National Government will go down in the history books as the Govt that ran down the public health service so bad –“shit was leaking in the hospital walls.” Thats what they will be remembered for despite having some good people.

    • … ” Thats what they will be remembered for despite having some good people ”…

      Please name one.

      And despite it being unpopular with some – particularly the rich listers who are TERRIFIED of tax increases and legislation designed to award employees an actual livable wage to cope with the conditions the rich listers created in the first place , –

      TAX is required, – a tiered tax system that is raised by increment as ones earnings increase , – and more realistic company taxation. That and a wage award that is humane. One that doesn’t need a subsidy from the low / middle earner taxpayers in the first place that only subsidizes and perpetuates the profit margins of the wealthy.

      IE: Corporate welfare.

      That might just claw back at least SOME of the unethically gained finances the rich listers have been accruing at our expense for decades to put towards our degraded infrastructure.. .

      Then there is borrowing and running a deficit – and NOT as the National party did with hand outs for the rich.

      Oh no, no nooooo… that money can used for the development of govt owned industry’s for export to be reviewed after a certain number of years and then the population given the option to become shareholders. Competing with the IT components industry for one , for example.

      Or perhaps even put towards building 10 Bridges in Northland,… gee wouldn’t that be a snazzy idea?

      Its called Keynesianism and worked before when we were the 6th most wealthiest country on the globe – until Roger Douglas and his other wanker mates introduced neo liberalism in 1984.

      • Chuck 14.1.1

        Well WK your “team” is now in charge…so let us see if they follow your advice.

        I wager they won’t…

        • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1

          At least we might see some semblance of societal reconciliation, – which is a total contrast to Key and English’s toadying up to the rich listers such as the New Zealand Institute and others who donate heftily towards National and including them in sweet offshore business deals.

          BTW ,… whats happened to all those foreign trusts that parked themselves here during Keys tenure…?

          Snaked off to places less open to public perusal now their benefactors no longer in office?

          Watcha’ reckon , eh Chucky?

          • tracey 14.1.1.1.1

            Funny that. Only a third stayed when they had to give real names and addresses….

        • tracey 14.1.1.2

          Not a game chuck. Sad to see those championing personal responsibility running away from theirs with unseemly haste

          • Chuck 14.1.1.2.1

            “Not a game chuck. Sad to see those championing personal responsibility running away from theirs with unseemly haste”

            Who’s running away tracey?

    • Incognito 14.2

      No (more) knighthoods for ex-National MPs. Unfortunately, it is too late for Sir John as he was first in to get his gong …

      The fact that for 9 years they could effectively hide these problems from public view and even from the Opposition’s view, and Treasury’s as well I suppose, indicates that there are fundamental problems with the democratic process in NZ and the checks & balances that are supposed to be part of our system. It puts National’s abuse of the OIA in a different and even more sinister light.

      We need (more) transparency and accountability from our political representatives in Parliament, not just Government, and from the State Services Commission; there’s something rotten in the State of Denmark.

      • alwyn 14.2.1

        I would be willing to wager that Winston, if he retires at or before the next election, will get a knighthood from the current Government.
        That is something, the ultimate bauble, that he will never forego.
        He’s like Michael Cullen. Whoops sorry. “SIR” Michael Cullen.

        By the way. I thought your kind liked the Danes?

        • WILD KATIPO 14.2.1.1

          .. ” By the way. I thought your kind liked the Danes? ”…

          Being rather foot in the mouth tonight aren’t we?

          Its a quote from Shakespeare as you well know,… alluding to corruption , in this case the corruption of the National party , – of which you also well know…

          As for Winston Peters – he has been around for 3 decades and more , looked after his constituents ie : the elderly with such things as Gold Card and, – unlike your Forex trading John Key , never pulled young girls ( and womens ) ponytails in common assault , never colluded with Forex traders to bring down the NZ economy , and NEVER signed off on a military revenge attack against unarmed non combatant civilians which included the deaths of over a dozen people including elderly people and small children.

          So much for your hero Mr ‘ Get SOME GUTS !! Key.

          Fun Facts Time :

          John Key / Andy Krieger – timeline debate – true or false? | NZ Court …
          https://voter08.wordpress.com/john-key-andy-krieger-a-timeline-debate-true-or-false/

        • Incognito 14.2.1.2

          It is a bit of a stretch to label Winston Peters an ex-National MP but technically you’re correct – I know how important it is to you to be correct 😉

          As a kid I loved Lego but my ‘kind’ likes people regardless of their nationality; nice try though 😉

        • Janet 14.2.1.3

          At least I feel Winston would have earned it out of long service to the country. Unlike Keys. which should be taken off him.

  14. David Mac 15

    Was anyone expecting the incoming government to throw their hands in the air with delight over the fantastic state of the nation that had been left for them?

    Of course it was going to be a dire mess, of course the mess will now put pressure on the delivery of pre-election promises.

    It’s spin straight out of the Beehive Boogie handbook. Over promise then point the finger of blame. Helen’s party had an easy time of it when they stepped down, the GFC and earthquakes came along, it became their fault.

    None of us get this ‘Blame them’ luxury. We are obliged to do the best we can with what we’ve got.

    • …” Of course it was going to be a dire mess, of course the mess will now put pressure on the delivery of pre-election promises”…

      And in a sadly inverse way , there is a positive about all these degraded states of affairs caused by National…

      It will highlight precisely and exactly the actual charlatans they really were, – and New Zealanders gullibility in being sucked in by a smiling con man parachuted in to provide the ‘ jolly them all along’ quotient after the divisiveness of Don Brash…

      • David Mac 15.1.1

        The mess is not what matters.

        Just as when you and I have a mess in our lives Wild, it’s what we do about it that counts. That’s what makes a worthwhile difference.

        • WILD KATIPO 15.1.1.1

          And we know the cheese ad,- ‘ good things take time’.

          Or in this case,… after 9 years of degradation by National we are expecting the coalition govt to wave a magic wand and have it all sorted out by lunchtime?

          No. This is going to take a major effort and a lot of cash. And time.

          Such was the destruction caused by that political party of Hollow Men ( and Women ) called National.

          • Pat 15.1.1.1.1

            my guess would be there will be much as indicated so far in this term and the time and resources will be used to set a path from the next election (subject to mandate)….may be a reasonable strategy given that any major infrastructure investment will take considerable time to design, plan and cost so is unlikely to be actioned this term in any case( and will possibly include a repudiation of fiscal cap)….wont stop the calls however.

            • WILD KATIPO 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Indeed. The main thing the coalitions done wrong is the fiscal restraints. That came about because of the neo liberal remnant still in place in both National AND Labour.

              In a way , the more agitation , the more complaints will only serve the objective of dismantling the discredited cock and bull we call neo liberalism.

              Those still wishing to ‘push’ that discredited Milton Friedman Chicago school of economics bullshit theory will only store up future wrath for themselves if they keep on trying to ‘push’ the envelope.

              Hopefully , Labour will realize that before its too late. National knew it was a lie but rammed it through regardless. And paid the consequences for their arrogance. I am hoping that Labour will see the path of neo liberalism is a path of guaranteed destruction for them being in power.

              The difference is they are teachable, whereas National , ACT and the like rely on the lie being perpetually perpetrated to function. The remnants of that lie are now coming home to roost as we now discover more and more degradation of our social infrastructure caused by their grievous ideology.

              I love it.

              The more people finally have the courage to admit they were duped, the better the chances for change .

              And that can only be good.

        • Ankerrawshark 15.1.1.2

          David Mac, it is what we do about the mess, but it is also very important to understand how the mess got made so we can learn to avoid it in the future

  15. adam 16

    Anyone who has been working with the social service agencies like I have, knows that national not only underfunded the whole process. But had it so NGO’s had to waste more and more of their time to produce mountains of paperwork to get the funding. All the time, leaving no wiggle room for the human experience (which is messy and never the same twice).

    Well said Marama glad someone finally asked that question, us with our noses press firmly to the wall know that it needed asked. But we are also aware that the media is so corrupt in this country, that your about to be attacked as much as Metiria.

    • Marama will stand her ground.

      She had no problem staring down the Israelis when they boarded the boat.

      Shes got guts and is like a dog with a bone. Attempt to attack her ?, – shes one who WILL bite back.

      Fuck the far right wing neo liberal scumbags!

      Bring it on !

  16. Chris T 17

    Shocking

    This needs another inquiry!

    We can make it 100 of them people!

    • tracey 17.1

      We wouldnt need them but for the shameful and calculated degradation of many public services by Nats. They lied throughout their terms and accordingly Labour has to make enquiries cos they cannot rely on the info Nat produced

  17. greg 18

    we should have a rally in support of the coalition government and demand an investigation into the last 9 years put key ,Coleman,english before a judge or the mob

  18. SPC 19

    Oh let’s get real.

    When they committed to a 20% of GDP debt target (that National had set years ago for 2020 and were not that fussed themselves, seeing it more as an aspirational target), to show their management credentials, they were always going to be under pressure on the budget.

    National knew it. They knew things would come up, as they do for any government which is why there is the practice of having extra for new spending. So when Labour decided to spend this in advance (in health and education), they knew there would be problems managing unknowns (including a few that National knew about).

    If Labour had not committed so strongly to the 20% debt target it would not be such an issue, but they have and despite this have renewed their committment. So it’s a straight jacket now.

    And by suggesting that the tax review might be revenue nuetral they will have little respite after 2020 either.

    National had the resort to private sector financing of projects, Labour do not. So welcome to austerity under a Labour-Green government – that has decided to pose as unable to afford the future that they want for New Zealand.

    The Dominion Post and Herald editorials will wonder at the perversity of Labour’s fiscal rectitude and self-destruction.

    Then National will return, and say 25% debt to GDP is fine … saying a tax cut would restore growth.

  19. patricia bremner 20

    I think some business people will find what was happening in the “rock star” economy rather startling, and that the playing field was far from level under English.

    Under investment in infrastructure has many costs which may now be exposed in health and education, and over investment in white elephants like RONS just as bad as uneven investment which has skewed agriculture. Oh the management is breath taking… just not in a good way.!!

    Those who thought the gravy train would continue are now feeling the pinch, and are dusting of their human face and digging their humanity out of their back pocket looking to pay better money to workers.

    But the rat pack that runs dirty politics still chip away. They are visible now in all their nastiness. We see you!! We know you, and we say “Begone!!”

    • … ” I think some business people will find what was happening in the “rock star” economy rather startling, and that the playing field was far from level under English ”…

      Quite correct, as not all business people are CEO’s of large multinationals, – they are the managers and owners of small business concerns , who were, … forced to compete for the crumbs under the auspices of large corporations and the favoritism that National showered them with…

      When a nations economy puts the squeeze on small businesses in favour of big business,… the rot sets in. Less are employed, and wages drop , … small concerns go bust which spirals even more unemployment. And following a natural path of diminishing returns, even the big corporate’s begin to suffer because of the loss of spending power of the populace.

      That is how thick many of these multinational heads are. In for the short term , awarding themselves obscene salary’s, plundering a nations resources until they are bled dry.

      Such are the ‘rat pack that runs dirty politics’ and what they advocate.

      Some people call it economics,- more honest people call it theft.

  20. Incognito 21

    Am I alone in feeling like we’re in campaign-mode at the moment?

    • No , the feeling is real. The far right wing nutters on this site are only the more obvious and trivial line up of a counter attack in progress right now as we speak. And if the coalition change tack and relinquish the fiscal restraint all hell is going to break lose.

      I cant wait.

      The show down has been over 34 years in the making.

      And now and the next few years is crunch time for New Zealand.

      • Exkiwiforces 21.1.1

        Well its better late than never, I hope Jandals and the team gives them a bloody good thrashing in the process for the last 35 of yrs of the crap that we have gone through

        • WILD KATIPO 21.1.1.1

          Exactly. Its time for a very large quantum shift.

          When you read that Sir Robert Muldoon was ideologically more Left than the current Green party , – and that the only reason Bob Jones formed the New Zealand party was to dethrone Muldoon and help usher in the Douglas free market reforms, – you know there’s been skulduggery going on in this country for over 3 decades.

          And though it may grieve some to read it ,… I would vote for a character like Sir Rob Muldoon in a flash if one such was to arrive in this country. Abrasive and un-politically correct as he was. This from a person who was an Anderton / Peters / Alliance/ NZ First ( and Labour pre 1984 ) person from way back.

          That said, I am happy and proud to have voted for the Greens this last election .

          🙂

    • Matthew Whitehead 21.2

      Yep. I think the Nats have correctly concluded their only way back into government in the next six years is to either break the coalition or to discredit the Prime Minister entirely, so they are trying absolutely desperately, especially as all their secrets begin to come out and their need to deflect from their own failures in government that this new government is trying to fix are all coming into the light.

      • Exkiwiforces 21.2.1

        Matt,

        The No Mates party has form in breaking the coalition even though it was their coalition at the time, I think this would be their 1st COA unless the old silver fox gets his Waka jumping up bill up and running thence the whingeing from the right wingers about the Waka jumping bill.

        • WILD KATIPO 21.2.1.1

          Don’t think there will ever be any outsmarting of the Silver Fox,… many have tried, none of them have succeeded.

          Its always backfired on the perpetrators.

          I have no problem with old school conservatism ,… but neo liberalism has absolutely nothing to do with that. It is an ideology all in itself. And an elitist , destructive one.

          That’s where the battle will be and needs to be carried to. Destabilizing the last remaining neo liberal outposts in our govt depts. The last hangers on from the Key / English administrations.

          And that means ‘your services are no longer required’ notifications.

          Such as in WINZ- or whatever they like to call themselves these days.

          This will be one of the key areas where the coalition needs to focus their attentions on , – rooting out the time markers and the gravy trainers and the status seekers and instead putting in place those who are more, shall we say ,… ‘ideologically suitable’….

          • Chuck 21.2.1.1.1

            “Don’t think there will ever be any outsmarting of the Silver Fox,… many have tried, none of them have succeeded.”

            Winston lost his bluff on the Owen Glen donation.

            The privileges committee decided he had knowingly misled Parliament by not declaring the donation, and was therefore in contempt of its rules.

            • Stunned Mullet 21.2.1.1.1.1

              Personally I think the ‘brown elephant’ was some of Winston’s finest work in the debating chamber.

      • Ad 21.2.2

        The Nats aren’t the problem.
        They are completely ineffectual. And will be for quite some time.

        The government is the problem.

        Can anyone who felt enthusiastic after the election, hoping for a major change in the direction of the country, now believe this government can’t even get to its first budget without limping all the way?

        • Cold Hard Truth 21.2.2.1

          Agree Ad. I voted hoping for change and all we have so far is more of the same…..

        • cleangreen 21.2.2.2

          Ad;

          You are being far to kind to the ‘austerity crazed National Party’ aren’t you?

          By excussing National of their, cut- cut- cut- cut- cut cut- cut- austerity policies they used to bring our total public services and infrastructure system almost to it’s knees!!!!

          For example, did you know that national were responsible for the ruining of the East coast rail service in 2012?

          The Transport select Committee found that it was the Government under John key in 2012 that took the rail maintenance funding from the Napier Gisborne line and used it to fund a (private french rail passenger service in Auckland) and that caused the blocked drains to wash part of the Gisborne rail out!!!

          So National deliberately destroyed our public asset – and our rail service.

          The EX minister of transport and PM Joyce/key should both be facing court procedures of ‘willful destruction & damages’ about this willful destruction of the Countries public asset.

          http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1302/S00183/kiwirail-admits-lack-of-maintenance-led-to-wash-out.htm

      • Chuck 21.2.3

        “or to discredit the Prime Minister entirely”

        Ardern is doing a good job of discrediting herself so far. The Nats have not really fired a serious shot yet.

        “is to either break the coalition”

        That will not be hard…

        No minor party has grown their vote while in Government. NZF and the Greens will be fighting for their lives come 2020. NZF will resort to going feral on Ardern as that’s all they know how to win votes. The Greens will be trying to gain votes of the more left-leaning Labour voters, as the new Co-Leader will not appeal to anyone center left. In other words, cannibalizing that segment of votes.

  21. Cold Hard Truth 22

    It might be a mess but the big question is “are they going to clean it up?” TPP still in play, 90 day law in place, hospitals still under funded and mental health services….so far not looking good.

  22. sirpat 23

    i have not posted here for some time but have read often and I got to say I do so enjoy these tory bastards with their deflection, lies. lies and more damn lies being taken to task by what I see as some very fine thinkers….however I also have to say I miss the pre internet days where once the populace got really fecked off they hit the streets. I do see the need for “keyboard warriors” as the bloody right take over and try to swamp any online commentary but I would like to see Kiwi’s get the bit in their teeth….get a bit more mongrel in them…..pretend they are French farmers!!!. Its what’s missing I reckon for a lot of folks to get activated…. “we the people” must not just be vocal in places like this….they need some action to bring them together so they really feel they are making a difference.. so that the single feel like they belong to the whole….to a worthwhile cause…no more sheeple people!!!
    cheers to you.

  23. R.P Mcmurphy 24

    the whole history of new zealand is land agents and lawyers and selfish acquisitors seeking a place in politics to grab the main chance. The tories have a go at stripping as much as they can off the state and then the Labour party has to step in and right the ship before there is nothing left. It is a wonder there is anything left to exploit at all

  24. mac1 25

    Reported today. From Treasury.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/health/2018/04/almost-one-in-five-hospitals-in-poor-condition-treasury.html

    “More than 19 percent of hospitals are in a poor or very poor condition, according to a Treasury report.

    In the Southern District Health Board region alone more than 16 percent of hospitals are in a very poor condition according to the Treasury’s 2018 Investment Statement, which takes stock of the Crown’s assets.

    Treasury found improvement was needed in performing scheduled maintenance at hospitals, with a number of DHBs reporting underspending in this area.

    Some of these DHBs had net deficits, suggesting that they were deferring repairs and maintenance to direct spending to other areas.

    Treasury estimates more than $14 billion will be needed in the next decade to replace or upgrade aging hospital assets.

    DHBs are heavily reliant on the Government for additional funding to replace assets, rather than being able to finance them with their own resources.”

    Treasury also reported on disparities in access to health services for some population groups.

    “There was a disparity in acute admissions to hospitals that are considered avoidable through primary or community care.

    Māori children were 1.3 times more likely to have an acute admission to hospital than children of other ethnicities, while Pasifika children were 2.3 times more likely.”

    Did we know that it would be this bad?

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