Daily review 22/10/2019

73 comments on “Daily review 22/10/2019 ”

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1. Anne 1

   22 October 2019 at 5:58 pm

   Yeah well… I guess that's the end of the new convention centre.
   • Ad 1.1

     22 October 2019 at 6:01 pm

     Let's wait until morning.
2. Ad 2

   22 October 2019 at 6:00 pm

   The Prime Minister will need fast and clear clear information from Fletchers and Sky City to provide assurance to all APEC participants (Putin, Xi, Trump etc) that this fire does not disturb that programme.

   This fore is both a logistical and diplomatic problem for the government now.

   Otherwise this is liqudated damages and court cases, as well as a catastrophic defeat for the government.
   • ScottGN 2.1

     22 October 2019 at 6:05 pm

     Apart from the difficulties this obviously poses for APEC planning, and the government is going to have to get on top of that real fast, I’d be pleased as hell if shitty Skycity’s ugly convention centre never rose from the ashes.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       22 October 2019 at 6:08 pm

       Both National and Labour are committed to it.

       We will see the extent of the damage tomorrow, but there's no starting from scratch.

       One of them is going to open it in 2021.
       • ianmac 2.1.1.1

         22 October 2019 at 6:17 pm

         So Sir John Key did so well to negotiate the Sky City deal. A great deal. Thanks you so much,

         Wonder if this will finally send Fletchers finally bust. Online it was said workers on the roof left a blow torch unsupervised.
         • adam 2.1.1.1.1

           22 October 2019 at 11:55 pm

           Funny how workers get the blame right out of the gate.

           I hope there is a right prober insurance investigation – hearing all sorts of nasty rumors about sky city being saved by this accident….
       • ScottGN 2.1.1.2

         22 October 2019 at 6:20 pm

         I know Ad. But I can dream and hope for some decent architecture in Auckland sometime surely?
         • Ad 2.1.1.2.1

           22 October 2019 at 8:49 pm

           Aye dat
   • Anne 2.2

     22 October 2019 at 6:51 pm

     Catastrophic defeat for the government? How do you come to that conclusion?

     It was the John Key government who insisted on building the thing. The Labour Oppo. was vehemently opposed because it was seen as a massive fiscal extravagance. And time has proved it to be so. Now add to the cost a humongous repair bill and how is that supposed to reflect badly on the Labour led government?
     • ScottGN 2.2.1

       22 October 2019 at 7:23 pm

       Ad is right. If the government doesn’t act fast and get planning for APEC back on track after this (Skycity convention centre was the big venue for it) and, worst case scenario, it has to be moved offshore because there is nowhere else to hold it in Auckland the government will pay big time.

       While I absolutely don’t want that to happen it will be just rewards for our total inability to plan and execute national infrastructure in NZ

       How’s Christchurch convention centre coming along?
     • Climaction 2.2.2

       22 October 2019 at 9:11 pm

       You do realise this was being paid for privately and not by the government Anne?
       So what were the labour opposition opposing then if they objected to this?
       • Incognito 2.2.2.1

         22 October 2019 at 9:59 pm

         For some reason I believe you know the answers to your questions. In any case, the Opposition was opposed to the $128 million taxpayer top-up to build the Centre and to the gambling concessions they were given, estimated worth tens of millions per year.
       • OnceWasTim 2.2.2.2

         23 October 2019 at 7:47 am

         Depends what you mean by being paid for.

         How about an increase in the number of pokies and changes to legislation to make it all happen.

         Great symbolism though eh?
   • Stuart Munro. 2.3

     22 October 2019 at 7:15 pm

     "as well as a catastrophic defeat for the government"

     You vastly overestimate the public liking for these non-performing trade deals – they've been oversold as being wonderful for decades without producing anything much.
     • Ad 2.3.1

       22 October 2019 at 8:53 pm

       Both kinds of government are neck-deep in them, and the national and international media know it.

       SCCC is like the big motorway jobs: National start them, but Labour front them to the finish.
   • Graeme 2.4

     22 October 2019 at 8:40 pm

     Surely there would be quite well developed plans for a back-up venue in place since the proposed venue is still under construction, and just from the importance and stature of the event.

     Wellington should have possible venues, there must be alternatives in Auckland. Queenstown hosted CHOGM at Millbrook in 1995, which was quite high profile but surprisingly low key with world leaders like Mandela, John Major and Howard wandering around Arrowtown with general public and tourists.
     • Ad 2.4.1

       22 October 2019 at 8:51 pm

       It's the security features.

       There will be a scramble in the next 48 hours, or we will have to give it up.

       It will come up the post-Cabinet media briefing anyway.
       • Graeme 2.4.1.1

         22 October 2019 at 9:49 pm

         Millbrook would be as secure, maybe more. There's all sorts of things go on there that are kept out of sight.

         Whether it can cope with the business side as well as the leader side could be another matter.

         But more immediate is how this is going to affect Fletchers, insurance claim could be interesting if media reports of a blow torch being left on over smoko are correct. But not the first butynol job to go up in smoke, hopefully the risk was appropriately managed.
         • Ad 2.4.1.1.1

           23 October 2019 at 7:56 am

           The Fire Chief said this morning the roof made of straw and butynol layers was "complex".

           There's the word.
     • Exkiwiforces 2.4.2

       22 October 2019 at 10:11 pm

       Yes, but we still had an Airforce back then as well, unlike the glorify Flying Club/ Airfarce we have these days.
3. ScottGN 3

   22 October 2019 at 6:16 pm

   Ironically the NDP in Canada, having lost almost half their seats, will probably have more power than they have ever had in Ottawa as Trudeau will need to their votes to get his legislative agenda through the House of Commons. ProRep back on the agenda?

   The Greens have made a breakthrough in Atlantic Canada too, winning Fredericton, the provincial capital in New Brunswick. They will hold their current two seats on Vancouver Island.

   Sheer, the Tory leader is already fending off the predictable questions about his campaign strategy. If he couldn’t beat a PM that’s had a year as hellish as Trudeau who could he beat?
   • swordfish 3.1

     22 October 2019 at 10:43 pm

     .
     Yep … back in 2011 the New Dems take 31% of the vote & a record 103 seats (partly a sympathy vote for Jack Layton), official Opposition status for the first time but precisely zero power … fast-forward to 2019, a measly 16% / 24 seats … and the prospect of real influence on Govt direction.

     Vancouver Island remains a Left stronghold. Overwhelmingly Orange with a couple of dabs of Green.
4. ScottGN 4

   22 October 2019 at 6:23 pm

   Major live feed fail on the telly in Canada. All three major party leaders have started their victory/concession speeches at the same time. Networks are all going with Trudeau of course. Pretty funny though.
   • Dukeofurl 4.1

     23 October 2019 at 10:34 am

     Looking at the % of votes and the seats won its way out of kilter from what we expect here under MMP

     However Canada seats are allocated by provinces, with some places like Maritime provinces 'over represented'.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_electoral_redistribution,_2012

     Then there is the prairie provinces and BC outside Vancouver and its island, where all the seats, apart from 3 ,won by Conservatives. PQ of course only stands in Quebec

     Noticed too the election slogans. Conservatives in Quebec were

     "Plus. Pour vous. Dès maintenant." "More. For you. Starting now." They only won about 5 seats around Quebec City and none in Montreal

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Canadian_federal_election#Results
5. marty mars 5

   22 October 2019 at 6:55 pm

   Wonder what it will take to change some attitudes – nothing worse than dirty cockies

   Open Country Dairy was ordered to pay $221,250 after an objectionable smell from its Waharoa plant caused residents to vomit and suffer headaches last year.

   It was also found to have unlawfully discharged wastewater into a stream causing contamination of the Waitoa River.

   …The Waikato Regional Council – which took the prosecution – said Open Country Dairy must prove to the community that it can operate in a compliant way in the future.

   The council's investigations and incident response manager, Patrick Lynch said the company's record of now having five prosecutions relating to unlawful discharges into the environment was of concern.

   "They will be looking at their own history of non-compliance now and they should be aghast at the amount of actions that the council has had to take to try and get them to a compliant place."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/401543/dairy-firm-cops-hefty-fine-for-smell-that-caused-sickness
   • greywarshark 5.1

     22 October 2019 at 7:08 pm

     They are very open and straightforward – their name Open Country Dairy indicates their intention, to be transparent about sharing their pollution with all the surrounding country. That's bare-faced isn't it – quite a provocation to the local and central government. Do we put up with this sort of thing from business? Are they part of the entitled percentage cocking a finger or a leg at us whenever they feel the urge?
   • Stuart Munro. 5.2

     22 October 2019 at 7:18 pm

     It's their fifth prosecution for this shit – ordinary protocol would expect to begin closedown procedure after three.
     • In Vino 5.2.1

       22 October 2019 at 7:25 pm

       Or imprisonment with no early release. But maybe they were just too busy making ads about clean dairying? This is a black mark for those making nice ads about how farmers are trying so hard to be green and clean.
       • Sacha 5.2.1.1

         22 October 2019 at 8:46 pm

         Jailing company directors would sure focus their minds.
       • Stuart Munro. 5.2.1.2

         22 October 2019 at 8:55 pm

         I think the reality of environmental responsibility has yet to sink in, not least with councils. So it's really WRC that need the hard talk, because if they continue to be as flaccid as overcooked pasta, companies will continue to take full advantage.
         • In Vino 5.2.1.2.1

           22 October 2019 at 9:18 pm

           No argument there.
     • McFlock 5.2.2

       22 October 2019 at 10:22 pm

       What's that line – something like "an offence only punishable by fine means 'legal for rich people'"
       • Incognito 5.2.2.1

         22 October 2019 at 10:28 pm

         Surely, that should be ‘pretty legal for rich people’?
         • McFlock 5.2.2.1.1

           22 October 2019 at 11:23 pm

           Depends on whether they figured out how to pay the fine without committing a corrupt practise that could get them up to two years in the klink 🙂
       • Stuart Munro. 5.2.2.2

         22 October 2019 at 10:44 pm

         It's interesting (to linguists) that the origin of fine lies in its function of bringing an end to a legal dispute or debt. As such they are not appropriate to continuous breaches of operating conditions.
   • Alice Tectonite 5.3

     23 October 2019 at 9:08 am

     Open Country Dairy = Talleys
     • Molly 5.3.1

       23 October 2019 at 9:35 am

       Thanks for that, Alice. Adds yet another layer of information.

       NBR article: Open Country Revenue tops $1 billion

       Open Country Dairy, New Zealand's second-largest milk processor, generated more than $1 billion of revenue last year but payments for milk rose faster than receipts from customers and profit fell.

       Profit was $23 million in the year ended Sept. 30 from about $62 million a year earlier, its accounts show. Sales rose 34 percent to $1.1 billion while cost of sales gained about 44 percent.

       Open Country didn't disclose volume figures in its public annual accounts but chair Laurie Margrain said it was up on a year ago.

       "We have more market share, more farmers supplying us," he said. "We've got more of the market than a year ago and hugely more than 10 years ago."

       Open Country is 76.6 percent owned by diversified agribusiness Talley's Group, slightly up on a year earlier and reflecting a share sale to Talley's by a small shareholder….
       • Alice Tectonite 5.3.1.1

         23 October 2019 at 10:46 am

         Molly, you might be interested in other Talleys Group brands:

         • Talleys (seafood, veg)
         • Amaltal (seafood)
         • Crème de la Crème (ice cream)
         • AFFCO (meat)
         • SPM (meat)
         • Open Country Dairy
         • Motueka Creamery (ice cream)
         • Logan Farm (veg)

         Talleys also "process and pack a range of private label products across the food range"

         source

         I general try to avoid Talleys because of their reputation. Suspect I might occasionally unknowingly buy some through supermarket own brands as there is no easy way to know who has packed what.
         • Molly 5.3.1.1.1

           23 October 2019 at 11:06 am

           Thanks Alice.

           I remember seeing a Talleys list during the strikes, and noting that thankfully we did not purchase any of those items, but with the constant changes in ownership and shares it is always good to keep up to date.
           • Alice Tectonite 5.3.1.1.1.1

             23 October 2019 at 11:28 am

             I don't recall seeing Motueka Creamery brand before. The name sounds like a little local independent outfit (which I guess is the impression they want). Haven't seen any in the supermarket either but then I don't usually buy ice cream in tubs…
             • Molly …

               23 October 2019 at 12:22 pm

               Me either. Thanks to a long-delayed realisation that I really need to do something about healthy eating, we avoid processed foods at the supermarket. Limited to buying tinned tomatoes and tomato paste.
   • Naki man 5.4

     23 October 2019 at 11:11 am

     "nothing worse than dirty cockies"

     Typical of you to try to blame cockies for the actions of Talleys.
     • marty mars 5.4.1

       23 October 2019 at 11:23 am

       lol – own it gnatyman – imo the company is dirty, the cockies are dirty – thus the rivers are dirty, the land is dirty.
6. greywarshark 6

   22 October 2019 at 7:20 pm

   When can we get some control over our Police Force? They, and the Defence Force don't impress with their perspicacity, and self-discipline.

   What if we all started behaving like the police, where would be? We set them a good example by most of us being law abiding citizens and they give us the wrong steer too often.
   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/401572/police-don-t-seem-to-know-when-to-back-off-papanui-road-resident
   • In Vino 6.1

     22 October 2019 at 7:35 pm

     Fully agree. But if they get new powers as currently proposed, we may barely be able to question their questionable activities. They are the holy crusaders fighting against crime, gangs and terrorism. How dare anyone question what they do?
   • Jimmy 6.2

     23 October 2019 at 10:18 am

     Lets hope this idiot driver gets charged and goes to jail to get him off the roads. I feel sorry for the bloke driving to work that has been killed by him due directly to his dumb decision.
7. greywarshark 7

   22 October 2019 at 7:29 pm

   Bold Speaker in UK House of Parliament with verve, determination and a man holding onto the principles of Parliament so far. May he be able to stand against the Jester: 'You shall not pass'.

   21 October 2019 9:05 Brexit: House of Commons Speaker refuses vote on Brexit deal- BBC News

   Codewords: ‘Patchwork Principles’.
   • ScottGN 7.1

     22 October 2019 at 7:41 pm

     He’s outta there as soon as the election is called.
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       22 October 2019 at 9:29 pm

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL2GrszjSXk

       Jacob Rees-Mogg and son, 12, heckled by anti-Brexit protesters who scream ‘Nazi’ and ‘traitor

       Rees Mogg is starting to look like H..ler. I am interested in the loving gesture that this UK politician shows to his son's sensitive ear. (And I hadn't even noticed the caption then.)

       556 comments I thought this one showed the depth of thought of many Brexiters. '

       Shameful Positions 2 days ago (edited)

       Typical anti Brexit mob that have been crying for 3 years. Learning to lose as well winning is part of life. Their behaviour is shameful.'

       Anyone would think the matter discussed is a football match. This person doesn't realise that politics is about life; how people are to be treated in their country, and if they are to actually have a country to belong to. This sort of shallow thought is probably common.
   • McFlock 7.2

     22 October 2019 at 10:25 pm

     Interesting take on different groups' approaches to Brexit.

     Nobody mentioned comes out looking good.
     • Molly 7.2.1

       23 October 2019 at 9:41 am

       Rafael Behr has consistently been a critic of Jeremy Corbyn on the Guardian. And it's not surprising that during this short video his criticism is based on the Labour Party, and no mention – at all – is made of the Torys.
       • McFlock 7.2.1.1

         23 October 2019 at 12:20 pm

         He was specifically asked about Labour.

         I found his point about the remainers being just as in the dark as the brexiteers (a group that bojo is part of) during the referendum to be interesting. And his evaluation of the generalised clusterfuck that brings the UK to this point didn't seem unreasonable.

         How was his description of political attitudes after the brexit negotiations were started incorrect?
         • Molly 7.2.1.1.1

           23 October 2019 at 12:26 pm

           " Nobody mentioned comes out looking good. "

           In the admittedly short clip provided, only Labour is mentioned. And tbh, they were not the architects or the current party in charge of this delivering a solution.

           The full interview might be more balanced, but the clip itself just reinforces a strange continual media narrative that blames Labour – particularly Jeremy Corbyn – for the current state of affairs.
           • McFlock 7.2.1.1.1.1

             23 October 2019 at 1:26 pm

             Remainers and brexiteers were also mentioned.

             And no, the clip doesn't blame Labour for the current state of affairs. It does, however, criticise Labour for standing back from the entire affair in the hope that complete failure or catastrophe will get it elected.

             How was his description of political attitudes after the brexit negotiations were started incorrect?
             • The Al1en …

               23 October 2019 at 1:33 pm

               Which, in part, is to blame for the latest yougov poll putting them 15% behind the conservatives. Total mismanagement of the agenda and a complete failure of Labour voters.
     • greywarshark 7.2.2

       23 October 2019 at 4:30 pm

       I thought that twitter thread was great. I liked the summation of the barebones of the UK Brexit Grand Funfair Slide. The comments were not at all the low mindless stuff as common. And Behr's attitude re Labour fairly found fault with their softly softly catchee monkee approach. I think they are suffering from the new sign of these debilitated modern times – a low sperm count. For women the feminists should be putting up those that have gone transgender, with the sensitivity, intelligence and BMI of blokes and girls mixed, or just females letting out more of their masculine side. These are changes that have happened at the same time as the trend to machine-run systems high on algorithms, and programmed thinking and nelibeconomics. The finding your own a-gender may be the new vanguard that saves us all. That and more vitamins and minerals to replace sugar, so we can get our teeth into our problems and those dozy pollies who need a bite on the bum, and then supporters and minders for those who venture forth into those enchanted and uncharted waters, watching their backs.
8. ScottGN 8

   22 October 2019 at 7:32 pm

   FPTP Has delivered the following in Canada in a House of Commons of 338 seats

   Liberals 156 seats

   Conservatives 122

   Bloc Québécois 32

   NDP 24

   Green Party 3

   Ind 1

   Our system of MMP would give the following (not allowing for discarded votes)

   Liberals 112

   Cons 117

   Bloc 27

   NDP 54

   Greens 22

   Ind 1
9. joe90 9

   22 October 2019 at 7:49 pm

   Shocked!

   Ms Ardern’s tweet came days after Mr Jones made comments about Julia Gillard's late father John saying he "died of shame”.

   https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1186446802037268480
   • weka 9.1

     22 October 2019 at 8:09 pm

     Lol, very slow news day for Sky. Twitter are having fun with it.
   • mac1 9.2

     22 October 2019 at 9:54 pm

     Git is a term of insult with origins in English denoting an unpleasant, silly, incompetent, annoying, senile, elderly or childish person. As a mild oath it is roughly on a par with prat and marginally less pejorative than berk.

     Git (slang) – Wikipedia

     I'd say she was being very mild considering what Jones said, when and where, and why.

     Jones was publicly criticised by Labour and Green politicians in 2012 for his comments. He apologised later. This from the ABC. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-30/jones-apologises-for-black-parody-remarks/4288118
   • Jimmy 9.3

     23 October 2019 at 10:21 am

     I think Twitter is having more fun with Russell Norman's tweet about the fire.
10. weka 10

    22 October 2019 at 8:04 pm

    Aerial timelapse of the Sky City fire over 4 1/2 hours

    https://twitter.com/NiwaWeather/status/1186519410820833285
11. joe90 11

    22 October 2019 at 8:23 pm

    'Murica's original sin.

    (Whitten is son of a man who defended two men accused of killing Emmett Till).

    https://twitter.com/hodgman/status/1185920931610464256

    The man who allegedly led a group of armed white citizens assisting in a search for a black burglary suspect in Sumner has a history of taking the law into his own hands.

    #John Whitten III is a prosecutor for Tallahatchie County and the town attorney for Tutwiler. On Aug. 20, 2009, he attempted to assist law enforcement officers in searching for 28-year-old Will Pittman on the outskirts of the town of Sumner. Although he holds no law enforcement position, after hearing about the burglary, Whitten drove his Jeep to the cotton field and wooded area that officers were searching.

    '

    https://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2009/sep/09/a-sordid-history-manhunt-leader-has-history-of/
    • greywarshark 11.1

      22 October 2019 at 8:59 pm

      In that area of the USA they need to have properly defined hunting season regulations. He probably thought they were hunting for skunks.
12. marty mars 12

    22 October 2019 at 8:52 pm

    For me I think this racist bastard should be resigned from his role – he is a dim witted racist wanker – and we don't need more of those arseholes running the place.

    The newly elected Tauranga councillor is already facing calls for his resignation.

    While councillor Andrew Hollis was campaigning, he said the Treaty of Waitangi was "past it's use-by-date" and "a joke".

    Local iwi leader Buddy Mikaere is a former director of the Waitangi Tribunal and said he wanted Mr Hollis to step aside.

    "I think that in saying things like, the Treaty is a joke and that it's past its use-by-date and I think in one instance also saying, the Treaty should be burnt, that seems to me to be in direct contradiction of part one of the Local Government Act, and part four and six, where treaty principles are clearly something which councils needed to taking into account.

    "So this guy has got a conflict of interest which seems to me would disqualify him from any participation in any council business that has to do with Māori interests because the whole purpose of those sections of the LGA is to give Māori input into the business of council.

    "How can he participate on any reasonable debate on issues such as that?"

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/401567/councillor-who-said-treaty-should-be-burned-banned-from-iwi-talks
    • Molly 12.1

      23 October 2019 at 9:54 am

      The sad thing is, though marty. That even if he does resign – which seems unlikely – he was vocal on his views during his campaign, and many Tauranga voters voted him in.

      So, the issue is about a lot more than one man's views and the response to them. It is about the fact that such a climate of misunderstanding and bias exists that someone who holds those views is considered fit for office by a fairly significant number of voters, 5091 before iterations.
      • marty mars 12.1.1

        23 October 2019 at 10:10 am

        Yep we are good at growing racists – wilding racists can be plucked one at a time. Replacing the wilding racists with solid thinking migrants would be good imo.
        • Molly 12.1.1.1

          23 October 2019 at 11:03 am

          Wilding racists – good term – act as a good indicator of how well we educate and discuss. They are part of New Zealand, and we get to figure out how to reduce their numbers and impact. We need to do better, but we also need to recognise that regardless of best intentions – we have created the environment that allowed them to take root.

          The immigration issue is another one that requires more responsive discussion, both online and in person.

          Having lived in another country for a few years, I have enjoyed the benefit of travel and living elsewhere. I can't deny the value of such an experience.

          But I can also see how being prepared to do any job, for any money which was only possible because I was prepared to live lightly in order to travel, and contributed to the degradations of the working conditions of workers who lived there. It is also true that due to very high levels of ignorance and self-interest, I contributed nothing to the communities in which I lived or the political direction of that country.

          I believe that is is really important that our New Zealand immigration policies are reviewed, not because I am against immigrants, but because new New Zealanders – alongside existing ones, should be protected against exploitation and should expect a better standard of living than many experience. We also do have to look at how badly prepared many of our systems are set up to deal with a high population increase, in terms of infrastructure, work regulation, housing, health and education. And we need to invest in these aspects of living, which will return dividends for both new immigrants, and existing New Zealanders.

          At the moment, we appallingly treat immigrants purely as investors both financially in terms of bringing money into the country, and socially, as invigorating our diversity. We act as passive investors and contribute very little in return. We also devalue existing New Zealanders because they are not considered as contributing to the vitality of the country. It is not good enough.
          • marty mars 12.1.1.1.1

            23 October 2019 at 11:34 am

            The conditions that made you do what you did and others do it too are economic and nothing to do with migrants and immigrants imo – a bit like saying the world food issue is a distribution and waste issue, not a 'not enough food' issue. Low wages and poor conditions are NOT driven by migrants – migrants are used within these conditions, they are exploited. We don't blame the starving people for starving do we?

            I've just driven from the top to the bottom to the top of Te Waka a Māui – we have plenty of room for more people who can contribute to this country. And with the amount of things that will need to be moved to higher ground there should be tons of work to do around the whole country imo.
            • Molly 12.1.1.1.1.1

              23 October 2019 at 12:16 pm

              “The conditions that made you do what you did and others do it too are economic and nothing to do with migrants and immigrants imo…” Really. Just young and self interested, not concerned with the wider ramifications of meeting low expectations and conditions, and working within a regulatory system that provided opportunity for exploitation.

              “Low wages and poor conditions are NOT driven by migrants – migrants are used within these conditions, they are exploited.”
              Pretty much my point, marty. Obviously not clear enough about expressing it:

              "…but because new New Zealanders – alongside existing ones, should be protected against exploitation and should expect a better standard of living than many experience."

              The discussion needs to be broader than 'migration is good', in order to address valid concerns about what kind of country we are welcoming people to. New Zealanders, of all shapes sizes and origins are a diverse group of people. Some very self-interested, some community minded and with wider perspectives – irrespective of whether they are recent arrivals or not.

              We need to ensure that our policies and support systems for critical infrastructure and facilities are working and robust before we place further burdens upon them. For many who have not travelled any further than New Zealand, they already have experience of failed systems. Even if you don't agree with them, surely you can understand their concerns.

              " I've just driven from the top to the bottom to the top of Te Waka a Māui – we have plenty of room for more people who can contribute to this country. "

              I agree. But I think we currently fail at welcoming them because our focus is on what they bring, rather than what we offer. And we still need to look after our own – economic contributors or not.
              • marty mars …

                23 October 2019 at 12:30 pm

                I think we have some alignment of views – and some differences

                "We need to ensure that our policies and support systems for critical infrastructure and facilities are working and robust before we place further burdens upon them."

                The burdens are there and aren't going away and as we move into the future the burdens change and expand and very rarely reduce, so waiting for them is not really an option imo. Seems like waiting for the perfect time to get pregnant – that time never comes imo – you just have to do it and that becomes the right time.
                • Molly …

                  23 October 2019 at 6:02 pm

                  Yeah, I think we are in alignment mostly. However, rather than waiting, we should be prioritising, and I don't see that happening.

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