Magicked-Up Weapons

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1. WILD KATIPO 1

   11 March 2019 at 11:15 pm

   How China’s trillion-dollar trade initiative helped forge a humanitarian …
   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12211113
   • D'Esterre 1.1

     11 March 2019 at 11:44 pm

     Wild Katipo: “How China’s trillion-dollar trade initiative helped forge a humanitarian …”

     Good grief. Surely you don’t actually believe any of this? Look at the language. Heck… look at the provenance of it. A piece of propaganda at best, fiction at worst.
     • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 12:37 am

       1 ] Arrest and detention of Falun Gong members and organ harvesting by the state.

       2 ] Arrest and detainment of pro democracy demonstrators and ‘reeducation’

       3 ] Execution of criminals often for crimes committed that under the human rights of the U.N are unwarranted. Ie: sentence does not reflect the crime.

       4 ] Persecution of the state of Taiwan and its independent government. Coupled with discouraging other governments from recognizing it through sanctions and the like.

       5 ] Aggressive and ongoing expansionism into the sovereign state of Tibet.

       6 ] Arming , supplying and advising satellite states resulting in long protracted wars that killed millions, ie : Korean conflict , Vietnamese conflicts. Not to mention the millions killed because of Mao Zedong and his ‘Great Leap Backwards’ and the Cultural Revolution.

       7 ] Ongoing border wars over territory with India resulting in the deaths of thousands.

       8 ] Refusal to let independent officials of human rights groups from other nations access to prison camps to access treatment of inmates , conditions and prison deaths, etc.

       9 ] Denial of groups like Amnesty International to do the same and refuting of their findings.

       ———————————————————

       Yes , as a matter of fact I do believe this. And yes I do believe what is said about chinese propaganda and their deliberate hiding of the facts. And what really ticks me right off is the apologists who continually try to justify the government of one of the worst human rights offenders of the world. The CCP.

       Aside from which those apologists are usually less interested in the plight of other human beings and far more interested in the pecuniary gains they can achieve by defending them in this country.

       I notice it was all tut tut tut over the Bosnian war and the killings. I wonder how many in this country would have leapt to the protagonists defense of that deadly conflict if we had had a Free Trade deal with them and they were a large military and economic force.

       I would say many.

       But because they were not and a relative backwaters there was no particular interest in the fate of many because there was no real financial gains to be made.

       $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 9:38 am

         Agree. Plus the appalling and Orwellian ‘social credit’ system now being rolled out.

         I notice the first google results on the social credit system are all about how it’s ‘complicated’ and ‘misunderstood’ – can’t help thinking China is gaming the search engine.
       • In Vino 1.1.1.2

         12 March 2019 at 5:07 pm

         You are wrong about Taiwan – China has every reason to claim it. The only reason it is ‘independent’ is because Chiang Kai Shek fled there when Mao’s Communists defeated him on the mainland, and the USA then protected him with the risible fantasy that his was the true Government of China. How can you buy into that bullshit?
         • Andre 1.1.1.2.1

           12 March 2019 at 6:31 pm

           I don’t think China has any “right” whatsoever to claim Taiwan. The people of Taiwan should have the right to choose for themselves what they want.

           Most opinion surveys seem pretty clear that nowadays Taiwanese want to be a independent nation, equal among other nations. Of the minority that still want re-unification with mainland China, a fair few are KMT leftovers and still seem to be suffering from the bizarre delusion that they should be the rightful rulers of mainland China
           • Mark 1.1.1.2.1.1

             12 March 2019 at 7:01 pm

             Taiwan claims all of mainland China and vice versa. Taiwan as the ‘Republic of China’ claims not only Tibet as part of China, but also all of Mongolia

             Taiwan also claims the South China Sea as the ‘Republic of China’.

             Taiwan’s official name is ‘Republic of China’

             Taiwan’s national airline is China Airlines

             Taiwan’s national flag is the flag of the ‘Republic of China’ that existed on mainland China up until 1949.

             So it is quite clear that Taiwan is and sees itself as part of China.
             • Andre …

               12 March 2019 at 7:34 pm

               All of that is leftovers from Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang scarpering from mainland China after getting their asses kicked.

               Modern Taiwanese opinion has moved on from the old geezers fantasising they can return to lording it over the mainland.
             • Gabby …

               13 March 2019 at 12:04 am

               Taiwan sees China as part of it Marky.
       • D'Esterre 1.1.1.3

         13 March 2019 at 10:41 pm

         Wild Katipo: “Yes , as a matter of fact I do believe this.”

         Scepticism about this narrative is in order. China is a polity which – according to many commentators – doesn’t have a free press, doesn’t allow freedom of movement, and, as you yourself point out, doesn’t allow entry to human rights activists and the like. So: how do you know that this account has any veracity? Who has been able to enter China and provide independent corroborating evidence? Nobody.

         “Arming , supplying and advising satellite states resulting in long protracted wars that killed millions, ie : Korean conflict , Vietnamese conflicts.”

         Speaking of propaganda: are you aware of the history underpinning these events? OK: probably before you were born, but they happened in my lifetime. It seems to me that you need to do a good deal of reading. I’m sure that I can dig up some links for you.

         “I notice it was all tut tut tut over the Bosnian war and the killings. I wonder how many in this country would have leapt to the protagonists defense of that deadly conflict if we had had a Free Trade deal with them and they were a large military and economic force.”

         Really: not sure what this has to do with China, but whatever… Do you actually know what went on there? I very much doubt it, if you’ve got your information from the msm. Who do you think were the protagonists?

         I well remember those events: I can tell you that we were comprehensively propagandised by the msm about that situation at the time. Nato carried out aerial bombing in support of the Croat and Muslim fascists in Bosnia; though that’s not what we were told, of course.

         I say again: propaganda at best, fiction at worst. You must by now know that the western msm at least cannot be relied upon for unbiased and nuanced coverage.
         • Rangimarie 1.1.1.3.1

           14 March 2019 at 9:40 am

           Great!!
       • Charmaine Broderick 1.1.1.4

         13 March 2019 at 11:11 pm

         Spot on.
     • Cinny 1.1.2

       12 March 2019 at 6:27 pm

       D’Esterre, it’s not propaganda, it’s reality and that’s what’s really messed up about it all.

       There’s plenty of evidence out there re China and their citizen monitoring.

       Since Xi Jinping took power six years ago, things have changed DRAMATICALLY in China.

       Edit…. check this out, just reported on today….

       China says Western forces are trying to use Christianity to influence its society and even “subvert” the government, warning Christians there to follow the Chinese model of the religion.

       https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/china-official-west-christianity-subvert-power-190312022025061.html
       • Mark 1.1.2.1

         12 March 2019 at 7:03 pm

         …things have changed DRAMATICALLY in China.

         dramatically less corrupt, and more a focus on bringing the PRC back to its socialist roots.

         https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/14/xi-jinping-crushes-dissent-but-making-china-great-again
         • Cinny 1.1.2.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 7:19 pm

           Thanks for the link mark from an article in the guardian published in 2017.

           It did say this….
           ” Some had hoped he would prove a political reformer.
           Instead China’s authoritarian leader has waged war on dissent with unexpected ferocity, throwing some opponents in jail and forcing others overseas. Hardcore objectors call him “Xitler”

           My thoughts are thus…. Censorship along with propaganda in China has given the population a massive distortion of their leader. But you won’t hear about those stories in China…. ignorance of the population keeps Xi in power.

           What the international media call “internment camps” and “forced indoctrination”, the Chinese media describe as “political education centres” and “counter extremism training schools”.

           First story up, 9.30 mins long
       • D'Esterre 1.1.2.2

         13 March 2019 at 10:51 pm

         Cinny: you need to treat with great care reportage from al Jazeera. Remember who funds it. I know that many NZ citizens, aware that they aren’t getting the full story – heck, ANY story at all, about some events going on in the world – are turning to al Jazeera, in an attempt to get unbiased coverage. Unfortunately, you won’t find it there. If you know anyone who’s fluent in Arabic, get them to translate al Jazeera Arabic for you. That’ll open your eyes. You can also ask Syrian Christians and Alawites about the subject.
2. D'Esterre 2

   11 March 2019 at 11:37 pm

   Mike Smith: “It reads like a long list of the blindingly obvious, mixed with a large dose of conspiracy theory. It certainly doesn’t show much sign of the sort of critical thinking one might expect from an academic.”

   My view as well. For my sins, I’ve ploughed through the entire paper; hard reading it was indeed. And not because of the depth and complexity of the arguments in it, either. I waited (in vain, as it turned out) for the Big Reveal. Nothing beyond what you point to above.

   China wants to trade: well, hold the bus. So what’s the issue? When Vasco da Gama made it to SE Asia in the 15th century, he found that the Chinese were already there. Trading. Not colonising. Which is more than can be said for sundry Western powers which followed the Portuguese into that part of the world.

   “The provenance of the Magic Weapons paper also gives the game away. It was delivered at a conference on “The corrosion of democracy under China’s global influence,” supported by the Taiwan Foundation for Democracy, and hosted in Arlington, Virginia, USA, September 16-17, 2017.”

   Indeed. Partway through, she quotes somebody who takes an equal-opportunities swipe at both China and Russia. This also gives away its true intentions: it’s a form of what, back in my youth, we used to refer to as agitprop. Written by an academic, to be sure, but that doesn’t give it the gloss of respectability for which she and her supporters were clearly hoping.

   She makes the following observation: “New Zealand has relatively few public intellectuals, but the right to free speech and intellectual freedom for New Zealand academics—the society’s critics and conscience—is protected under legislation: the Education Act (1989), Part 14 which requires all government institutions and agencies to protect academic freedom, and the Human Rights Act 1993 Article J, which prevents discrimination on the basis of political opinion.” (Magic Weapons, p.42)

   Then she concedes that this state of affairs here protected her work. Yet surely it would be this sort of thing, along with freedom of speech, rather than trade, that the PRC would be working to influence, were it the case that it wished to undermine our sovereignty?

   She also says: “Many of the political influence activities China directs at New Zealand, unless they result in treason, the paying of bribes, or other forms of corruption (Crimes Act 1961) are not illegal.” (p.42)

   Many of…. hmm. I think that her language here is dodgy: if any of China’s activities here are illegal (which is implied), she ought to say which ones they are.

   And this from the conclusion: “Democracies have magic weapons too: the right to choose our government; balances and checks on power through the courts; our regularity bodies such as the Commerce Commission and the Press Council; the legally-supported critic and conscience role of the academic; freedom of speech and association; and the Fourth Estate—both the traditional and new media. Now is the time to use them.” (p.43)

   So: we’re actually well-protected here against attempts by other polities to subvert our democracy. Though there was amusement in this household at her somewhat naive optimism regarding the ability of the Fourth Estate in NZ to do any heavy lifting in this area.

   I’ve spent a longish life observing the political circus, both here in NZ and elsewhere in the world. I’m much more wary of our so-called “allies” in 5 Eyes than I am about China. Or Russia. Or pretty much anywhere else, to be honest.
   • Wayne 2.1

     12 March 2019 at 9:56 am

     I am publicly on record as disagreeing with Dr Brady (in a Q&A interview).
     But it is not necessary to say she is not of academic quality and would be regarded as a CIA asset.
     While I don’t agree with views (and I have read her papers) to suggest her papers are not of academic quality would probably damm 90% of all academic papers in politics.
     One of her specific allegations is that China uses its expatriate community as a means of influence, in quite a different way to other nations. I think there is some truth in this. But that does not mean any actual influence on govt policy.
     Anyway good that she is appearing before the Select Committee, her views can be tested by the MP’s.
     • Incognito 2.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 10:23 pm

       The Select Committee is not a group of expert peer-reviewers who will judge her work against academic standards. Nor are they a group of judges judging the merit of her claims. What they are is a group of politicians looking into the political ramifications of foreign influence in the NZ political system. This is the scene and this will determine the queries & questions to the people who make submissions to the SC.
     • D'Esterre 2.1.2

       13 March 2019 at 11:15 pm

       Wayne: “But it is not necessary to say she is not of academic quality and would be regarded as a CIA asset.”

       Has anybody actually said that? I’ve criticised the quality of her writing, to be sure. And I failed to find any actual arguments in her paper which supported her thesis. I’ve read a lot of academic papers: she isn’t the first academic not to have much of a gift for writing; and no doubt she won’t be the last. But it doesn’t follow that I or anybody has questioned her academic credentials. And I haven’t characterised her as a CIA asset; as far as I can see, neither has anybody else. Though to be sure, I’ve skim-read some comments.

       “One of her specific allegations is that China uses its expatriate community as a means of influence, in quite a different way to other nations.”

       She does. However: given the opprobrium directed at China in the contemporary world, perhaps that’s not so surprising.

       NZ has a Chinese community with deep roots here, going back to the 19th century. They’ll be culturally New Zealanders; I’m guessing that the expats she claims are targeted by the PRC would be much more recent arrivals.

       “But that does not mean any actual influence on govt policy.”

       Exactly. And as far as I could tell, she doesn’t present any evidence of this happening. I agree with both you and Mike Smith: it’s good that she’s appearing before the Select Committee.
3. Exkiwiforces 3

   11 March 2019 at 11:41 pm

   Here’s a couple from the Australian ABC’s News website on China. I’m glad that Anne-Marie has the chance to present her paper to the SC and like you face proper critical examination. But I’m still a little concerned at China’s activities in the Sth Pacific, SEA, Africa and a lack of disclosure of its activities in the Antarctic Region IRT the Antarctic Treaty as all the other Antarctic Treaty Nations do, well apart from the Russians who are following China’s playbook atm down in the Antarctic atm.

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-10/confucius-influence-around-the-world-in-question/10875960

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-10/confucius-influence-around-the-world-in-question/10875960
   • D'Esterre 3.1

     12 March 2019 at 12:09 am

     Exkiwiforces: “But I’m still a little concerned at China’s activities in the Sth Pacific, SEA, Africa…”

     For the life of me, I can’t see why you’d be concerned about China’s activities in the above areas, without expressing even more concern about US activities in these areas, both in current times and historically.

     China hasn’t traditionally been a hegemon. The same cannot be said of the US in the Pacific. The south China sea area is China’s near abroad: of course it will pay attention to it. The more so once the egregious Obama began his “pivot to Asia”. Which seemed to consist of constant needling; just as he did with Russia over a similar period.
     • RedLogix 3.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 12:36 am

       China hasn’t traditionally been a hegemon.

       But now clearly plans to be one. I mean ‘traditionally’ the USA was not a hegemon either; until it was.
       • Sam 3.1.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 3:55 am

         Then the PLA Navy should have or at least aspire to have 10-15 type 001A aircraft carriers on top of an economy capable of producing nuclear weapons and delivery systems. 10 aircraft carriers being the number necessary as a global hegamon because that’s how many America has, and 15 in a bipolar world and plus that number so more aircraft carriers than 15 in a multipolar world. China is still has to produce a dedicated naval fighter wing so they’re at least 10 years behind the worlds mightiest carrier force, the U.S navy but that’s nothing considering America had WW2 and 70 years of carrier development and China has basically closed that gap in 10 years so now they’re only 10 years behind but until China has a minimum of 10 type 001A or greater carrier capabilities I would consider them to be a major power with regional aspirations.
         • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.1.1.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 8:51 am

           What a surprise you turned out to be a military buff. over 30? studying something like politics still?
           • Sam 3.1.1.1.1.1

             12 March 2019 at 8:53 am

             Don’t punish me because you majored in drama studies, please.
         • Wayne 3.1.1.1.2

           12 March 2019 at 10:16 am

           China is way more than 10 years behind the US in naval aviation. Probably more like 20 to 30 years behind.
           They have yet to build a carrier with catapult launchers. Probably in the process now. I would expect it will be operational in the late 2020’s, and even then it won’t be comparable to a Ford class carrier.
           Similarly with stealth aircraft. The J20 is nowhere near a match to the J35, it is also 20 years behind.
           The same thing can be said of virtually all Chinese military capabilities. They are in 1990’s technology as opposed to 2020. Basically a 20 year gap. However in the early 1990’s the gap was more like 30 to 40 years, so they have halved it in the last 20 or so years.
           By 2030 the gap may be closer to 10 to 15 years which is quite small in military terms. Modern aircraft and ships typically have a 30 year lifecycle.
           In any event China is not trying to outcompete the US on a global scale. Only in the Asia Pacific (1,500 miles from the Chinese coastline). And in that region they could succeed. Though presumably Japan, Vietnam and the US will have other ideas about that.
           • Sam 3.1.1.1.2.1

             12 March 2019 at 11:26 am

             Wayne buddy, ya start out real strong, really strong, so strong, awesomely strong. Just super duper y’know? Then you just screw everything up after aviation, full stop.

             What China lacks in radar range, pixel quality and elegance they more than make up for in production. As the great maximum goes “quality over quantity but quantity has a quality all of its own.”

             Average U.S. Wage $56,00, population 320 million.

             Average Chinese wage $12,000, population 1.5 billion.

             China has a workforce 5 times greater than America. If they wanted to achieve parity with the America right now, at an average wage of $24,000 China could have an economy double the size of America and achieve over match. All America has to do is take and occupy one of the disputed islands then China will start shitting type 001A’s no matter how inferior they are they still go bang.

             Right now All of the PLA navy is enough to send one or two U.S. Carrier battle groups to the bottom of the ocean, so the PLA achieving parity with the U.S navy would be no difficulty for cheap Chinese production. That’s not including there rocket force so don’t kid yourself.
             • Stuart Munro. …

               12 March 2019 at 11:34 am

               I’m not sure the characterization is sound. China has a long record of relatively poor military performance, of which this is an example:
               http://www.navyandmarine.org/ondeck/1894yalubattle.htm

               There have no doubt been improvements, but China has not prospered in actions against substantial powers since that time, and they likely still have a few kinks to work out.
               • Sam …

                 12 March 2019 at 12:04 pm

                 Well I’m sure. China has a national spirit that has overcome greater odds than anything Trump or an American President can present. Chinese people endured Mao, they kicked in the teeth of Empiral Japan with ameciated peasants, PEASANTS. America not long after world war 2 tried to fund a revolutionary take over of communism and they put that down. China has already cucked America from a far worse position.

                 People go on a lot about the F35 and it’s a real game changer that there is no doubt but there are obvious flaws in it. The F35 carries 2 air to air missiles so China just has to send 3 J20’s and 3 J20’s is comparable to one F35 in cost and the F35 is smoke. F35 is a great platform and all and it’s got one hell of an upgrade horizon but it isn’t invincible and neither is China a paper tiger. Problem is once America put its boot on the tiger by ring fencing China with U.S military power, now you can’t take your boot off the tiger.
                 • Wayne …

                   12 March 2019 at 12:36 pm

                   F35 carries 4 AIM120 missiles internally. A very advanced missile. The 3 to 4 J20’s are gone.

                   Sam,
                   You and I basically agree. In ten years or so the PLA will match the US in the Asia Pacific(1,500 miles from Chinese coast.
                   China currently produces about 80 advanced aircraft per year (Su27). A similar rate to the JSF consortium. Both could basically double production within a few years if they wanted to. The US and Japan together have nearly 500 million people.
                   • Wayne …

                     12 March 2019 at 12:44 pm

                     But of course it is not going to come to war, maybe a naval or air incident. Then everyone will rapidly back off.
                   • Sam …

                     12 March 2019 at 12:49 pm

                     Yeah, 2 on the wings, 4 internally. So that’s 7xj20 on a average day vs 1 F35 in a straight up paper fight. And a hot war between them won’t be nice a chivalrous affair. China won’t attack America directly until they’ve achieved technological superiority so there’s no being nice about it. Some times you’ve just got to hit that shit like you’ve got an attitude.
                   • Sam …

                     12 March 2019 at 12:58 pm

                     I mean to achieve a war time production we’re basically saying America is going to inflate its economy and print trillions and trillions which would put them in a real pickle economically. Hyper inflation is possible, it will be war bonds and food lines. And China will probably be a major buyer of U.S bonds in any case. And I’v got a we problem with Japanese military expansion. I mean who the hell said they could expand there military after there surrender. It’s not supposed to work like that.
                   • WILD KATIPO …

                     12 March 2019 at 4:54 pm

                     [ ” But of course it is not going to come to war, maybe a naval or air incident. Then everyone will rapidly back off ”]…

                     Wayne’s right.

                     Feels good to actually agree with a neo liberal for once. But that is quite right. Both these superpowers will have an ‘ incident’ , then the huffing and puffing , then the cool off.

                     The scaremongers will be disappointed.

                     And all this hullabaloo about ‘china this, china that’ will be seen for what it is; scaremongering.

                     Yes ,- there will come a time in the end china will cross the old silk road, or the new access roads they are building towards the middle east,… but that is some time away.

                     You would be far better to keep your eyes on a third Temple to be built in Israel than to fret about china.
                   • Sam …

                     12 March 2019 at 6:24 pm

                     Perhaps not a direct confrontation between 2 nuclear super powers but Taiwan is going to be annexed and perhaps even South Korea just to keep the buffers up between a China and the west. That should be enough to bring the U.S into it what with all there vectorial about not one more South China Sea island. America has there boot on the neck of the tiger and they can not lift it even for a moment.
           • Exkiwiforces 3.1.1.1.2.2

             12 March 2019 at 2:41 pm

             Actually Wayne, the Chinese Carrier arm of the PLAN is a lot closer than you think. It been making huge leaps and bounds over the last couple of yrs and it’s third carrier will have Cats and Traps with that Carrier to be in service by 2024.

             Might want to get a copy of the Jan- Mar 2019 edition of the The Navy Magazine of the Navy League of Australia. As there is an article on the PLAN Carrier Arm.
           • Pat 3.1.1.1.2.3

             12 March 2019 at 7:00 pm

             The US may be able to hurt China with superior air power but unless theyre prepared to launch nukes they are hamstrung….think about it, they cant even control Afghanistan or Iraq FFS
       • peterlepaysan 3.1.1.2

         12 March 2019 at 8:34 pm

         Actually you need to read history. China has been expansionist and imperialistic for many many centuries, All nationalistic type cultures behave like that. China is only one among many.
         • Pat 3.1.1.2.1

           12 March 2019 at 10:31 pm

           Chinas ‘expansionism’ has been considerably muted in its history…that is not necessarily any indicator of the future however
           • D'Esterre 3.1.1.2.1.1

             14 March 2019 at 12:02 am

             Pat: “…that is not necessarily any indicator of the future however”

             In fact, past behaviour is the best indicator we have of future behaviour. That’s what history shows.
             • Pat …

               14 March 2019 at 10:15 am

               The best indicator….but not infallible
         • D'Esterre 3.1.1.2.2

           13 March 2019 at 11:58 pm

           Peterlepaysan: “China has been expansionist and imperialistic for many many centuries,”

           No. It hasn’t. I think you’re the one needing to read a bit of history. I certainly have.
       • D'Esterre 3.1.1.3

         13 March 2019 at 11:46 pm

         RedLogix: “But now clearly plans to be one.”

         Well now. I think a citation’s needed here. Your evidence for this would be…..?

         The best guide to a polity’s future behaviour is its past actions. China’s history goes back a very very long way. It could have colonised much of the Pacific, along with south-east Asia. It did not, and has not.

         “I mean ‘traditionally’ the USA was not a hegemon either; until it was.”

         Ha! The US has been a hegemon almost since its inception. You know about the Monroe Doctrine, right? See this:
         https://www.globalresearch.ca/recolonization-latin-america-war-venezuela/5670545

         As for the Pacific: have a look at a map sometime, see how many overseas territories the US has annexed. Or, in the case of Guam and the Philippines, acquired as the spoils of war. Although as the rest of us watched deliriously, the Pinoys threw them out, along with the egregious Marcos and his missus (he lost the presidency). I hear, though, that the yankees have staged a bit of a return. Not to the extent of having a base, but. Yet.

         An ancestor of mine worked for the last king of Hawai’i. The Americans stole that country from the Hawai’ians, using, as it happens, much the same tactics that it used in various countries in south America, the Ukraine and is (so far unsuccessfully) attempting in Venezuela.
     • Exkiwiforces 3.1.2

       12 March 2019 at 2:33 pm

       Well the International court may beg to differ with you IRT Chinese activities in the SCS and it’s man made islands. China has now got the capability to deny access for those nations that rely on SCS for the transit of imports and exports via the Singapore Hub.

       Those effected nations are Taiwan, Sth Korea and Japan along with all the other nations surrounding the SCS. This also indirectly effects NZ, Australia, US Canada, India MER countries as well.

       I quote this from the Navy Magazine- July August 2017, pg11

       That two thirds of worlds oil shipsments trainsit the India Ocean, with more than 15m barrels of oil transiting the Malacca Straits daily in 2014 and also nearly 30% of global maritime trade transits through the SCS annually including about 1.3Trillion in Ship trade to bound for US ports.

       It is not an overstatement to say that the prosperity of the entire Asia- Pacific Region is dependent on the security of these vital transit routes. Indeed, as, the developing East Asia economies serve as the engine driving the global economy which is responsible for about one-third of the worlds GDP growth which the prosperity of the world hinges on, in large part on freedom of navigation through the Asia Pacific region.

       What happens in the SCS is going to majorly effect NZ exports to the greater part of the Asia Pacific region and if NZ can’t export? Then it very highly likely that NZ won’t be able to import as well and therefore unlikely to export and therefore crashing the NZ Economy along with its economic wealth.

       I’m also concerned at China’s lack of disclosure IRT to the Antarctic Treaty and the way it thumbs its nose IRT Fishing quotas release by the members of the Antarctic Treaty as well. With the poaching that goes on down there and China’s disregard of the Antarctic Treaty Fishing quotas is going to lead to overfishing and probably a collapse of the ecosystem as well.
4. Stuart Munro. 4

   12 March 2019 at 2:05 am

   On the whole, wannabe superpowers are worse neighbours than countries with more humble ambitions. It doesn’t really matter whether it’s China, Russia, or the US, their vision of manifest destiny is likely to conflict with our own more modest and more legitimate ambitions for our own country.

   Irrespective of how well or badly Brady may have examined the problem, China’s ambitions in New Zealand are by no means necessarily benign. As we move away from the hot and cold running corruption that characterized National’s embrace of China, it is shameful indeed to find the chair of the justice select committee and all its Labour members voted not to allow Brady to speak. It would appear that improper Chinese influence in NZ’s parliament is not yet exhausted, despite the ousting of the Gnats.

   It’s true that Nick Smith is without equal as a waste of space (Gerry surpasses him of course), but though he may have prompted media attention to the committee, making Labour MPs vote not to hear Brady is beyond his feeble powers. The ordinary expectation of citizens when someone demonstrates improperly partisan behavior like this, is that they must step down from the committee. For some reason this hasn’t happened however. A very curious, and not altogether proper business.
   • Gabby 4.1

     12 March 2019 at 8:17 am

     Pricksmith might’ve seen an opportunity to get Labour to do the dirty work. Once RayRay poohpoohs Brady’s claims he can say Labour dd it too.
   • Anne 4.2

     12 March 2019 at 10:19 am

     On the whole, wannabe superpowers are worse neighbours than countries with more humble ambitions. It doesn’t really matter whether it’s China, Russia, or the US, their vision of manifest destiny is likely to conflict with our own more modest and more legitimate ambitions for our own country.

     By chance, I was part of a small group who discussed this conundrum last night, and the consensus of opinion as best as I can recall was that none of them could be trusted. In fact, one of our number with knowledge in the area said it is possible our next election will be interfered with in much the same way as has happened in other countries. It could be Russia or China responsible and one or two didn’t rule out the USA.

     We are a member of the FIve Eyes club. Despite our small size we punch above our weight. We have a highly visible Prime Minister. We have an independent streak and have been known to adopt independent foreign policy stances especially under Labour or Labour led governments. All of these could make us a target.

     As for Anne Marie Brady. She wasn’t harassed and intimidated for no reason. Someone feels threatened by her.
5. Ad 5

   12 March 2019 at 6:56 am

   This article is on why Australia is prepared to ban Huawei 5G and other developed countries are not.

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-07/why-is-the-uk-seemingly-not-as-worried-about-huawei-as-australia/10866848

   Plenty of links with further summaries within this article as well.

   It is quite possible to heed warnings as a country and come to one’s own judgement, and this is what is happening.
   • Pat 5.1

     12 March 2019 at 6:43 pm

     It really is all laughable when we have had evidence for years that the US has beenhoovering up virtually everything that travels the Net….if anyone thinks that because we are 5 eyes that somehow mitigates it all they are deluding themselves
   • Unicus 5.2

     13 March 2019 at 9:14 am

     As an old guard Clarkite MS was clearly part of the bundle of nitwits who got New Zealand into this Chinese trade trap in the first place – His current diatribe against Chinese critics in NZ should be seen for what it is – revisionist propaganda to justify what was a foolish misadventure by the Clark Government.
6. marty mars 6

   12 March 2019 at 7:03 am

   I have felt uneasy with this whole Brady thing. Something has not felt right. Good post with thought provoking ideas ta
   • Cinny 6.1

     12 March 2019 at 6:39 pm

     +1 Marty
7. Formerly Ross 7

   12 March 2019 at 7:17 am

   Mike

   You claim that there’s little substance in Brady’s paper and it’s all generalitiies (I must confess, I haven’t read it). But if it’s as anodyne as you say, one wonders why Brady’s home would be broken into with laptops and phones apparently stolen, and her car tyres apparently tampered with. Maybe it’s a weird coincidence unrelated to her work on China.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12163100
   • Sam 7.1

     12 March 2019 at 7:27 am

     We are speaking about all this because Labour MP and Chiar of the Security and Intelligence committee Raymond Huo tried blocking aligations against himself made by Brady who is recognised as a China Relations specialist and just can not be allowed to sit this one out considering the controversies The National Party has with conflicts of interest and any other perceived conflicts of interests parliament may have dealing with China and any other country.
     • Gabby 7.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 8:21 am

       Speaking of conflicts of interest how’s RayRay going to handle his interesting situation community interfacewise.
       • Sam 7.1.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 8:31 am

         Having Members of New Zealand’s parliament who were born in a forign country is not a problem during peace time. When the missiles start flying forign born nationals no matter how loyal become prime targets for forign powers to try and turn them into assets using coercion against there family or national heart strings.
         • WILD KATIPO 7.1.1.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 5:09 pm

           I wonder if our beloved Commo party over there in china would accept a few donations from either European or Maori New Zealanders to join their party?

           Hell might freeze over?

           So why should we do the same?

           Looking at you , ChiNational party with an ex military spy tutor from china as an MP…
           • Sam 7.1.1.1.1.1

             12 March 2019 at 6:37 pm

             Chinese Nationals do accept gifts and donations in forign countries as MPs but they couldn’t do the same in China. In China party loyalty is greater than to the motherland.

             I’d like to be the first to appeal to our better nature but in a real hot war, we’d round up every Chinese national in a heart beat and this fluffy hearts and smoke up the sphing sphing won’t mean squat diddly.
   • Mike Smith 7.2

     12 March 2019 at 11:06 am

     False flags are all part of the information wars – again insinuations but no evidence
     • Stuart Munro. 7.2.1

       12 March 2019 at 11:23 am

       But there is evidence, unfortunately. Huo tried to prevent Brady speaking.
       • Mark 7.2.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 6:40 pm

         Because she was 5 months late in putting in a submission to speak. What if I did that….he would prevent me from speaking as well, no doubt
         • Stuart Munro. 7.2.1.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 7:52 pm

           The right to speak also relates to the relevance of what you have to say. Five months before, the emphasis of the committee was not on potentially problematic foreign funding.
       • Incognito 7.2.1.2

         12 March 2019 at 10:27 pm

         I thought it came down to a vote: 4 – 4.
     • WILD KATIPO 7.2.2

       12 March 2019 at 5:19 pm

       I think I gave you a fistful to chew on right at the start of this article.

       Lets make ONE thing clear.

       The beef isn’t with Chinese people.

       But IT IS with that country’s governments criminal human rights record AND the apologists over here in NZ who try to paint a picture that china can do no wrong, – when in fact they are one of the bloodiest , human rights abusing , ruthless government’s on Earth.

       And the REAL REASON many are either silent on the issue or go in to bat for that murderous regime is because there is pecuniary gain to be made in glossing over that human rights abusing government.

       All the fawning, pathetic , twisted minded little bleeding hearts come out to play when the $$$$$$$$$$$ are involved..

       Here’s something that might pique your interest…

       https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/10/mysterious-factory-break-in-raises-suspicions-about-chinese-visit
       • Mark 7.2.2.1

         12 March 2019 at 5:30 pm

         The beef isn’t with Chinese people.

         You sure make it sound like it is.

         they are one of the bloodiest , human rights abusing , ruthless government’s on Earth.

         Not really. They have their faults. But no government has brought more people out of poverty, saved more lives, and educated more people, in such as short a time as the Chinese Communist Party. That’s pretty much an empirical fact.

         All you have to do is compare the social, health, and economic performance indicators between ‘authoritarian’ China and that other Asian giant, ‘democratic’ India.

         http://blogs.worldbank.org/psd/why-china-ahead-india-fascinating-analysis-amartya-sen

         Infant mortality rates:
         https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?locations=CN-IN-PK
         • WILD KATIPO 7.2.2.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 5:55 pm

           And no country has continued to slaughter and imprison in a wholesale fashion its political opponents , either.

           So , because of the CCP’s meglomanic grip on power and utter refusal to allow any political opponents ie : those supporting democracy , – and instead imprisons, tortures and executes them , – you think that’s all just fine and dandy.

           OK then.

           Saved lives? – as I said – go talk to some Falun Gong member’s family’s. Then post up your findings here.

           Then pop across to India where they have democratic elections and talk about communism.

           And is monetary wealth all you care about???

           Is the ‘wealth ‘ index so overriding to you that it justify’s false imprisonment, torture and murder? Hey buddy , – there was an empire 2000 years ago called Rome who operated on the same principles regards anyone not a Roman citizen.

           So as you snidely tried to challenge me recently , (and failed) I in turn challenge you to take your own advice :

           Go march down the main streets of Beijing , and demonstrate against china’s treatment of the Falun Gong and organ harvesting by the state,imprisonment and torture of pro democracy demonstrators, the invasion and oppression of the Tibetan people . reeducation camps , aiding and abetting of satellite country’s resulting in bloody long protracted wars that killed millions …

           I tell you what,… you wont last one day before your arrested and the same shit will happen to YOU.

           So here you sit in your comfortable chair at your computer with an UNCENSORED INTERNET , enjoying the luxury of a relatively high standard of living and freedom of speech and try to tell us all in rosy glowing terms how great it is to live under a totalitarian government .

           So I suggest to YOU that you fuck off, go and live in china on your $12000 per year wage, – and while your there, – carry out my suggestion to demonstrate down the main streets of Beijing.

           I would say report back to us but I daresay we will never hear from you again.
           • Mark 7.2.2.1.1.1

             12 March 2019 at 6:41 pm

             And is monetary wealth all you care about???

             No. That’s why I linked to that bit on infant mortality.
             • Cinny …

               12 March 2019 at 7:01 pm

               That link re infant mortality you supplied mark.

               Near on every country on the planet has reduced their rates of infant mortality over the last 50 years. JS

               Edit..

               How does China lift their people out of poverty?

               The Chinese government promises a good life to anyone who works hard, even the children of peasants.

               In exchange, they stay out of politics, look away when protesters climb onto rooftops to denounce the forced demolition of their homes, and accept the propaganda posters plastered across the city.

               https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/25/world/asia/china-freedoms-control.html
               • WILD KATIPO …

                 12 March 2019 at 7:07 pm

                 What a backwards looking shit hole.

                 Mark,- go live there.

                 Time for Tele bye byes, time for Tele bye byes ,… mate.
               • Mark …

                 12 March 2019 at 7:07 pm

                 Compared to other developing countries China has done a lot better.

                 And the New York Times???????
               • Mark …

                 12 March 2019 at 7:12 pm

                 China’s growth in life expectancy between 1950 and 1980 ranks as among the most rapid sustained increases in documented global history.

                 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4331212/
                 • Cinny …

                   12 March 2019 at 7:22 pm

                   Give them a medal..

                   Your ‘damage control’ on this thread is fascinating mark.

                   A bit like Huawei’s….
                   • Unicus …

                     13 March 2019 at 1:28 pm

                     Is this the way the CCP sees the world – a bunch of naeive children to be exploited and directed by the all seeing all knowing Han

                     Judging by the way they has behaved in New Zealand in the past decade that’s exactly what the Bejing tyrants think
                 • Stuart Munro. …

                   12 March 2019 at 7:55 pm

                   They carbon copied Korea, who were following Meiji’s blueprint. Malaysia and Vietnam are onto the same game.
             • WILD KATIPO …

               12 March 2019 at 7:05 pm

               Yes, I guess after the chinese totalitarian party had the one child per family policy something had to be done to resupply the military,… eh.
   • D'Esterre 7.3

     12 March 2019 at 3:10 pm

     Formerly Ross: “…. there’s little substance in Brady’s paper and it’s all generalitiies (I must confess, I haven’t read it).”

     I recommend it to you. Not, unfortunately, because it’s great literature. Note its provenance.

     “….if it’s as anodyne as you say, one wonders why Brady’s home would be broken into with laptops and phones apparently stolen, and her car tyres apparently tampered with.”

     I’d wonder why a large and technologically sophisticated polity such as China would resort to such clumsy tactics. In truth, break-ins and thefts of computers and phones happen all the time here.

     On the other hand, there are these incidents linked below: the NZSIS and the NZ police respectively, as it happens. Speaking of clumsy tactics….

     http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0005/S00050/lawyer-david-small-on-his-20000-award.htm

     http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/choudry.htm

     As for the tyre-tampering: who knows? More likely to be criminal than anything else. Somebody in Wgtn not so long ago slashed the tyres of cars parked in his area, because he was angry at perceived Council inaction over airport users parking in his area and crowding out the locals. There have been numerous other incidents reported in various parts of the country.
8. Gabby 8

   12 March 2019 at 8:04 am

   Whose payroll should I not be saying you’re on, and by no means insinuating that you very much are, Mikey?
   • Mike Smith 8.1

     12 March 2019 at 11:07 am

     You can efinitely say I a not on the CIA’s – in fact you can rule them all out
     • WILD KATIPO 8.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 5:33 pm

       Yet you choose to live here in the safety of our democracy with its financial benefits and go in to bat for a country that would have no qualms in arresting you, detaining you for an indefinite period, and ‘reeducating ‘ you over your 10 year prison sentence…

       For merely marching down Beijing’s main street protesting about Falun Gong organ harvesting by the state, the plight of pro democracy demonstrators, incursions into Tibet, executions of criminals for crimes that do not befit that sentence, aiding and abetting wars in Indo china – Korea, Vietnam which resulted in the deaths of millions , incursions into India at her borders, ..

       I tell you what , Mike…

       I’ll give you one day before you are arrested, whisked off to a prison facility , tried and sentenced to 10 or more years of reeducation and hard labour.

       Sound about square?

       Tailored to your taste’s, my bonhomie CCP advocate?

       OK we’ll go a little soft, Yes the States have Guantanamo Bay.

       Yes the CIA did the Bay of Pigs.

       Yes they assassinate their Presidents like we change our socks.

       Yes they interfere in foreign country’s , elections and topple dictators and democratically elected socialists alike. But most of that shit? – is carried out by groups like the CIA. But at least on the whole – the USA is a far more open country.

       Example?

       JFK got a bullet in the head for threatening ‘to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces’

       If that was china , – the leader of their spy agency’s would get a bullet in the head courtesy of the CCP instead.

       Have a wee think about that.
       • Mark 8.1.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 5:39 pm

         JFK got a bullet in the head for threatening ‘to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces’

         If that was china , – the leader of their spy agency’s would get a bullet in the head courtesy of the CCP instead.

         Which of course means the US is far more dangerious than China.

         Yes they interfere in foreign country’s , elections and topple dictators and democratically elected socialists alike.

         Thanks for acknowledging this fact. Also acknowledge the fact the Chinese do none of this.
         • WILD KATIPO 8.1.1.1.1

           12 March 2019 at 6:21 pm

           You again.

           [ ” Which of course means the US is far more dangerious than China ” ]

           Oh first off, I’ll remind you that a few days ago you snidely made a sarcastic comment about my ‘ English’… well hello , hello…

           You do not spell ‘ dangerous’ as ‘ dangerious’ …

           I think you missed the implications of life under a totalitarian state like the CCP where at an order, YOU , YOUR FAMILY ( think Faun Gong again ) can be murdered, imprisoned and tortured indefinitely on spurious accusations merely for criticizing the state.

           WHICH IS … a whole lot different that the legal processes of the USA.

           And the only reason I gave a concession to such things is to emphasis the fact that much foreign interference by the USA isn’t always sanctioned by the official political system but more by various military ‘ private ‘ groups like the CIA. I will concede that America has been involved in foreign adventures that involve its own interests. So has china.

           Contrast THAT – with officially accepted CCP sanctioning of the brutality it exhibits.

           You show a selective bias and a ‘ chinaphile’ type predisposition that seems to cast blinkers over the fact that china has in fact , participated actively , not only in advise but in supplying arms, and troops to fight wars in country’s on its immediate borders. Resulting in the deaths of millions.

           Political and military interference.

           Or is that only the preserve of the Americans?

           And again, – if china is so good I invite you to leave New Zealand and all the benefits and democratic freedoms ( including free speech ) you have here , go and live on your chinese ‘ prosperous’ annual wage of $12000 , and then proceed to march down the streets of Beijing in protest of the things I have outlined elsewhere.

           Good luck in that endeavor to you , sir.
           • Mark 8.1.1.1.1.1

             12 March 2019 at 6:33 pm

             Political and military interference.

             Or is that only the preserve of the Americans?

             Well, on a scale of 1 to 10, the americans are at 10, the Chinese at about 1 or 2.
             • WILD KATIPO …

               12 March 2019 at 6:34 pm

               Prove it.

               And again.

               Go talk to family members of the Falun Gong, go talk to family members of pro democracy demonstrators. Have a wee chat to Amnesty International.

               Or just piss off and stop wasting peoples time.
           • WILD KATIPO 8.1.1.1.1.2

             12 March 2019 at 6:33 pm

             Oopsey .- that’s Falun Gong , not … ‘Faun Gong’

             Corrected it. Just saying.
             • Mark …

               12 March 2019 at 6:34 pm

               Don’t worry. I don’t give a toss for Falun Gong,,,or ‘Faun’ Gong.
               • WILD KATIPO …

                 12 March 2019 at 6:36 pm

                 No it is patently evident you don’t give a fuck.

                 Or the many other thousands murdered under your lovely totalitarian chinese communist party.
       • Mark 8.1.1.2

         12 March 2019 at 7:13 pm

         aiding and abetting wars in Indo china – Korea, Vietnam which resulted in the deaths of millions

         FFS! most of the millions of deaths were overwhelmingly caused by American air-power
         • Stuart Munro. 8.1.1.2.1

           12 March 2019 at 8:09 pm

           It takes two to tango, and Chinese support of North Korea during the Korean war certainly extended it, and elevated the death toll.

           If China had not been trying to forget their history they’d’ve have known that the East or China Sea is the logistical key to invasions of Korea, and that failing to control those waters meant all their human wave attacks were ultimately doomed. Twere better China had not involved itself, but it was a young state at the time, and made a number of serious errors. It was fortunate Truman was a cagey president and spiked his general’s guns, because MacArthur meant to drive onward to Beijing.

           https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/truman-relieves-macarthur-of-duties-in-korea

           https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/redacted-testimony-fully-explains-why-general-macarthur-was-fired-180960622/
           • Mark 8.1.1.2.1.1

             14 March 2019 at 1:31 am

             Chinese support of North Korea during the Korean war certainly extended it, and elevated the death toll.

             The Chinese caused primarily military casualties.

             The Americans were the ones who caused mass civilian deaths through the indiscriminate use of aerial bombing, ‘burning down every town’ and killing 20% of the population.

             https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/unknown-to-most-americans-the-us-totally-destroyed-north-korea-once-before-1.3227633

             The US has always been very casual in its approach to Asian lives.
             • Stuart Munro. …

               14 March 2019 at 7:41 am

               Nevertheless, it was Chinese forces that were invading.

               The US has always been murderous – when they took the Philippines in 1899 they killed most people over the age of eight. “The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog…”

               US guilt does not magically absolve Chinese guilt however.
9. Rosemary McDonald 9

   12 March 2019 at 8:45 am

   Blast from the not too distant past here….

   https://thespinoff.co.nz/featured/05-12-2016/roskill-asians-talk-about-their-lives-or-tze-ming-mok-interviews-her-mum-and-dad/

   I remember reading this back then….very interesting re-read in the light of the 2017 election result.

   (Also, Tze Ming Mok puts a good piece together. Very readable, very insightful and very Kiwi.)
   • D'Esterre 9.1

     12 March 2019 at 10:40 am

     Rosemary McDonald: “(Also, Tze Ming Mok puts a good piece together. Very readable, very insightful and very Kiwi.)”

     It is, isn’t it. Many thanks for posting the link.

     Though I’m NZ-born, I’m familiar with migrants and the ways in which they adapt to life here. Her piece rings many bells: it doesn’t make any difference, it seems, where migrants come from, the issues are broadly similar.

     I’d add that, from what I’ve read about China, money – and the possession of it – is highly valued. Very Confucian, I think.

     Though having said that, most, possibly all, migrants, wherever they’ve come from, set about improving their financial situation. My own family (one grandmother and grandfather were migrants) is a case in point. That’s why they came here, after all.
     • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.1

       12 March 2019 at 10:55 am

       Tze Ming Mok wrote another piece just last year when the JLR/Bridges spat blew.

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12144581

       ” In my experience, wonks from across the academic, business, quango and government sectors are extremely concerned about the extent of China’s influence campaign here. But they can’t say much publicly or their own Chinese government-linked funding, or their access, or their negotiations – even in some cases, their families – could come under pressure.

       These constraints are impacted by the dearth of independent funding of China research, and the lack of funding for research institutions generally. It’s a small-country weakness that is easy for any state or lobby group with deep pockets to exploit.

       You don’t need to feel literally threatened for there to be a chilling effect.”

       Again, well worth a read.
       • RedLogix 9.1.1.1

         12 March 2019 at 1:47 pm

         And the Australians have been a lot more onto it than NZ. An Aussie politician seen taking big Chinese donations is pretty much toast and marmalade these days.

         There is an almost daily string of China stories in their media. Here’s a random one from today:

         https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-territory-sell-darwin-port-to-china-what-risk/10755720
       • That_guy 9.1.1.2

         12 March 2019 at 3:17 pm

         That’s a great article and I totally agree.

         “It’s endlessly irritating and insulting that both Labour and National have lazily assigned Chinese communities as the fiefdoms of politicians openly backed by the Chinese government.”

         Fucking A. Taking an entire ethnic group and assuming that the Designated Leaders Of The Group’s political views are aligned with everyone in that group is… what’s the word….
       • Mark 9.1.1.3

         12 March 2019 at 5:36 pm

         Who the fuck is Tze Ming Mok?
         • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.1.3.1

           12 March 2019 at 5:53 pm

           There you are Mark! A trifle late to the debate today…what kept you?

           The obvious response to “Who the fuck is Tze Ming Mok?”, is “Who the fuck are you?”.

           Ffs. Look it up. There’s this thing called the Internet….
     • Mark 9.1.2

       12 March 2019 at 6:37 pm

       I’d add that, from what I’ve read about China, money – and the possession of it – is highly valued. Very Confucian, I think

       They are a society the vast majority of whom were recently peasants. Nouveu riche and garish in a way. Peasants who have suddenly become moderately wealthy.

       But then look at the fairy stories and folk tales from Europe. A lot about marrying a prince, and gold and wealth. Chinese now have the mindset of late 19th century Europeans.

       Traditional China and other Confucian polities despised money making and the merchant class.

       So it depends where one is in the economic and historical society.
       • WILD KATIPO 9.1.2.1

         12 March 2019 at 7:15 pm

         [ ” They are a society the vast majority of whom were recently peasants. Nouveu riche and garish in a way. Peasants who have suddenly become moderately wealthy ” ].

         Yes and so Nouveu riche that they are prepared to let their murderous totalitarian government not only suppress free speech and the concept of democratically elected leadership but also murder and imprison any opposition to them.

         No wonder the CCP is afraid of the new found wealth of its masses and have to get ever more punitive to maintain power, eh?

         VIVA LA REVOLUTION !!!

         No,… that’s already happened. That’s how the totalitarians got into power in the first place. Seems they got the wrong guys in the end, didn’t they…
       • D'Esterre 9.1.2.2

         14 March 2019 at 10:59 pm

         Mark: “…look at the fairy stories and folk tales from Europe. A lot about marrying a prince, and gold and wealth.”

         Indeed. Many of our ancestors came here to NZ with the sole intention of bettering themselves. They had no opportunity to do that in the old countries.

         “Traditional China and other Confucian polities despised money making and the merchant class.”

         From what I recall of Confucius, his view on money was more nuanced. As with all polities, trade has traditionally been very important to China, because it brings in money.

         The Chinese aristocracy may have looked down upon merchants – as, of course, did much of the British aristocracy – but they weren’t averse to benefiting from the wealth acquired thereby.

         However. As I understand things now, in contemporary Chinese society the possession of money is seen to be a virtue. That certainly wasn’t true of the NZ society in which I grew up. Although maybe that’s just because my family was too damned middle class!
         • Mark 9.1.2.2.1

           15 March 2019 at 2:35 am

           Yes, there is a sort or reverse snobbery in countries such as New Zealand, Austraia, and even the UK. Not so much the US, where at one time, the salesman was an honoured profession

           Certainly in contemporary China there exists a peasant avarice, which is easy to laugh at. But it reflects a scarcity mindset with China being one of the poorest countries int the world in 1949, after a century of foreign invasions, civil wars, and revolution. But as you perhaps imply, when you are already middle class in one of the wealthiest countries in the world (at one time the very wealthiest), it is easy to say that money doen’t matter, and other more ‘spiritual’ pursuits are more worthy of one’s time.
10. That_guy 10

    12 March 2019 at 1:15 pm

    Look, the government of China is well on the way to building a total surveillance state (complete with facial recognition CCTV systems) that includes what is basically a party-loyalty score that affects access to many services, and is currently running concentration.. ooops, sorry, reeducation camps for millions of people.

    There is good evidence Brady has been targeted by the intelligence services of the Chinese government, including tampering with tyres on her car, which (at best) is sabotage and (at worst) is attempted murder.

    None of this concerns you, OP? It’s all just a racist beat-up?

    Just because Winston Peters is a racist fossil does not mean he’s always wrong.
    • Mark 10.1

      12 March 2019 at 5:35 pm

      There is good evidence Brady has been targeted by the intelligence services of the Chinese government

      What ‘good evidence’…..do you have this evidence? Perhaps you should present it to the NZ police who after a lengthy investigation came up with nothing.

      Most likely an ordinary burglary, or perhaps a false flag operation.

      If the Chinese really are so stupid as to pull off such a stunt (it certainly has backfired on what they were trying to achieve) then NZ does not have much to worry about at all.

      Far more likely it was US operatives out to create suspicions among the NZ public against China. They are the only party that would have benefitted from this….aside from of course Brady herself who is an obvious attention seeker.
      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.1

        12 March 2019 at 6:27 pm

        [ ” Far more likely it was US operatives out to create suspicions among the NZ public against China ” ]

        OH. Really.

        Slow clap.

        [ ” They are the only party that would have benefitted from this….aside from of course Brady herself who is an obvious attention seeker ” ]

        OH , again…

        You know there was bow that was recognized historically as the Long Bow… I think you’ve just reinvented it.

        ( P . S )

        You don’t spell ‘ benefited ‘ as … ‘ benefitted ‘…

        Just saying…
        • D'Esterre 10.1.1.1

          14 March 2019 at 10:15 pm

          Wild Katipo: “You don’t spell ‘ benefited ‘ as … ‘ benefitted ‘…”

          Yeah. You do. Either is correct.

          And while we’re on the subject of spelling and grammar: the plural of English-language nouns which end in “-y ” is “-ies”. Thus the plural of “family” is “families”, “party” is “parties”, “candy” is “candies”. and so on.

          The plural of a noun ending in “-ey” is “-eys”. Thus “fogey” is “fogeys”, “lackey” is “lackeys”, “money” is “moneys” (although – given that this is English we’re talking about – it can be “monies”) and so on.

          As a rule, I don’t comment on misspellings and grammatical errors; at least in part because I’d spend all my time doing that. But right now, I mention this because you seem to have strayed into the subject of language usage (including spelling), and this misspelling of plurals is a persistent habit of yours; I’ve seen it in many comments on this site. And: given that I’m the original pedant, trained by the nuns in the niceties of English grammar and spelling, it bugs me when you do this. It’s a distraction from whatever comment you’re making.

          Perhaps you could retrain yourself to spell plurals correctly?
11. That_guy 11

    12 March 2019 at 1:26 pm

    As for “mixed with a large dose of conspiracy theory”… well, constructing theories is what academics do, and since this is a theory about a group of people (the government and intelligence services of PRC) doing something that they’d prefer to keep secret, it’s by definition a “conspiracy theory”.

    It annoys me when people use the word “conspiracy theory” as a proxy for saying “theory that has no reliable evidence behind it and no basis in fact” without actually checking the evidence.

    9/11 was a “conspiracy”.
12. Mark 12

    12 March 2019 at 7:10 pm

    In the Pacific, the Americans have tested atomic weapons right over the heads of indigenous people, New Zealand indifference and negligence caused the deaths of over 1/4 of the Samoan population, Australian’s ‘blackbirded’ Pacific islanders to work on Queensland plntations, the French have taken over territories and declared them their own, and also tested nuclear weapons over the heads of the locals, and the French have committed a terrorist act in Auckland’s harbour.

    The Chinese have just come to trade, and will move out as soon as they are told to.

    Yet we are supposed to fear the Chinese more than Western powers in the South Pacific.
    • WILD KATIPO 12.1

      12 March 2019 at 7:25 pm

      [ ” The Chinese have just come to trade, and will move out as soon as they are told to”]

      L0L !!!

      The Sinophilia is amazing in this one.

      After that has been said and this guy still thinks the CCP are part of a benevolent, passive , altruistic extension of the celestial homeland. You need to take a history lesson and interview a few of the tens of thousands of the family’s of the victims…

      And BTW , buddy , – as I’ve suggested to you before, since you have such a hatred for the west and particularly of those of Anglo Saxon descent, and are contemptuous of the freedoms, material wealth , freedom of speech that the democracy of New Zealand has to offer you, – just simply fuck off and go live in china.

      Simple.

      Go and be in rapturous joy living under your new totalitarian communism and be content.

      Just don’t come around here trying to shit all over the people of this country and their democracy and who are not going to listen to you anyway. Thank goodness.
    • Cinny 12.2

      12 March 2019 at 7:26 pm

      The Chinese have just come to trade, and will move out as soon as they are told to.

      Yeah… nah.
    • Gabby 12.3

      13 March 2019 at 12:13 am

      The cultural revolution done for one or two undesirables and incorrigibles as well Marky.
    • D'Esterre 12.4

      14 March 2019 at 10:30 pm

      Mark: “The Chinese have just come to trade, and will move out as soon as they are told to.

      Yet we are supposed to fear the Chinese more than Western powers in the South Pacific.”

      I don’t know that they necessarily move out, but certainly they come to trade. As they were already doing in SE Asia when Vasco da Gama arrived in that area. There’s quite a sizeable Chinese community in Thailand, as consequence of those early trading voyages. But Thailand wasn’t colonised by China. In fact, it was never colonised, despite efforts by western powers to do so.

      I agree with you; I fail to see what there is to fear from China. On the evidence of past behaviour, I think I’m justified in being much more wary of our so-called “allies” in 5 Eyes.
13. Mark 13

    12 March 2019 at 7:38 pm

    as I’ve suggested to you before, since you have such a hatred for the west and particularly of those of Anglo Saxon descent

    Where is this ‘hatred’ you talk about?

    In terms of the Chinese government disengaging with NZ, they will be completely happy to do so, should New Zealand request this.

    I’ve told you before dude, as a patriotic New Zealander you should round up some of your mates, protest down Queen street hoisting anti-China banners and get in the news…..the Chinese will quitely go away.

    The China/NZ trade:
    25% of New Zealand’s trade (China is NZ’s largest trading partner)
    0.29% of China’s trade (NZ is China’s 44th largest trading partner)

    But of course when the Chinese go away, the likes of you will call it ‘bullying’

    If the Chinese want to trade and invest, they are accused of trying to ‘take over’
    If they don’t want to trade nor invest, they are accused of being ‘threatening’ and being ‘bullies’
    • WILD KATIPO 13.1

      12 March 2019 at 7:58 pm

      [ ” Where is this ‘hatred’ you talk about? ” ]

      It is sprinkled liberally ALL throughout your diatribes and failed defense of a murderous political system that you constantly deny has done any wrong.

      And your constant references and comparisons ( which to be honest are always selective and never look at the benefits that YOU enjoy living under a democracy here ) between NZ and china and by inference , – the West.

      [ ” In terms of the Chinese government disengaging with NZ, they will be completely happy to do so, should New Zealand request this ” ]

      Frankly , I would prefer they did leave. NZ was quite happy and prosperous before the FTD with communist china, – and also I actually would prefer that you get off your high horse and stop trying to infer china was some kind of ‘ economic savior’ for NZ.

      But YOU know and I know that china would prefer to keep NZ in its sphere of influence as a by proxy way of getting at the United States. That’s all they are here for. Business considerations come a big second for them. So that cancels that argument out.

      And it also cancels out the paper tissue thin argument you have that the CCP isn’t a pack of murdering bully’s.

      As I’ve constantly stated ( and not ONCE have you in your arrogance conceded) that the CCP of china is nothing more than a totalitarian, oppressive and brutally murderous regime.

      Oh, and as I’ve also said before… fuck off and go live under your beloved totalitarian CCP if you say the west is as bad as it is. Because we certainly don’t need you.
      • Unicus 13.1.1

        14 March 2019 at 7:35 am

        “Frankly I would prefer if China did leave the FTD”

        Amen !

        Most New Zealanders would agree – The FTA was always a ruse to enhance their influence here

        Under the CCP China is no freind of ours
14. Rangimarie 14

    14 March 2019 at 9:45 am

    Great article Mike Smith. I don’t know why we should be interfering in another country’s sovereignty. AND if people here are going to focus on China’s issues, let’s have a go at all other countries as well. Let’s start with the US shall we?

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