Open mike 12/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 12th, 2022 - 159 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

159 comments on “Open mike 12/01/2022 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    12 January 2022 at 7:50 am

    Wildland! I got it from the local library, and it's the best insight into the dysfunction of the USA that an investigative journalist can do using well-selected interviews & a natural rapport with those he talks to.

    this new volume by New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos offers the most personal and the most powerful description yet of a country “so far out of balance that it [has] lost its center of gravity”… Osnos travels to three places in which he has lived: Greenwich, Connecticut; Chicago; Clarksburg, West Virginia. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/sep/19/wildland-review-evan-osnos-america-trump-republicans-billionaires

    He mentions seeing in Clarksburg during the first pandemic year the trendy T-shirt with the slogan West Virginia: Self Isolating Since 1863. Here's the origin of that…

    When a war between the states threatened to rip our country apart, the members of our state had no problem whatsoever ripping the state apart and seceding from Virginia, just as Virginia had seceded from the Union. We formed our own state in 1863, thank you very much.

    https://bittersoutherner.com/folklore-project/2020/covid-19-west-virgina-practicing-social-isolation-since-1863

    Coal country. Manchin!

    The only reason anyone still burns coal today is because of the enormous political power and inertia that the industry has acquired since the 19th century. In America, that power and inertia is embodied in the cruel and cartoonish character of West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, who, paradoxically, may have more control over the trajectory of the climate crisis than any other person on the planet right now.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/joe-manchin-big-coal-west-virginia-1280922/

    A Democrat, of course. An avatar of democracy. The best that money can buy.

    • Macro 1.1
      12 January 2022 at 11:33 am

      I've mentioned this on here many times before, but Manchin is a DINOsaur. Democrat In Name Only. He caucuses with the Democrats but in almost every other respect his political thought resides on the other side of the political divide. Indeed he has in recent times suggested that he may leave the Democrats and continue his tenure in the Senate as an Independent,but caucusing with the Democrats a la Bernice Saunders. That would avoid the loss of the Senate from the Democrats to the Republicans, and would also allow him to continue to control the passage of any meaningful legislation to his personal agenda.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:44 am

        Yeah I get the picture. However, that framing kinda disregards how such people get to be selected by the party in the first place. It tries to ignore the representative part of democracy. If he didn't seem representative of democratic interests, they would not have selected him.

        Then there's the other dimension that the framing disregards: why democrat voters continue to vote for him instead of a democrat challenger.

        So you can see why the framing appears suspect to a centrist like me. It's as if those who invented DINO were trying to dissociate themselves from other democrats. In other words, it suggests an internal divide within the party.

        • Macro 1.1.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 12:14 pm

          it suggests an internal divide within the party.

          If that is a revelation new to you, then you have not been paying attention. There is a huge divide within the Democrats Manchin is one – his compatriot Kyrsten Simena from Arizona have together stuffed up practically all of the progressive legislation introduced to the Senate by the House in support of the Biden Administrations Build Back Better policies – much of it addressed to inproving the financial position of poor and middle class Families addressing climate change and a raft of other progressive initiatives. Their obstructionist actions do not go unnoticed by the wealthy nor by the voters who put them there.

          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/28/joe-manchin-kyrsten-sinema-build-back-better-plan

  2. Blade 2
    12 January 2022 at 8:48 am

    The Greens going back to their roots is a great idea for keeping everyone happy. The Greens will feel they are honest to their cause and are holding everyone to account. The Right can relax because finally the Greens in power won't be an issue.

    For people like me who believe MAN made climate change is a scam, I couldn’'t be happier.

    Commentator, Tiger Mountain, says the Right has a thing about the Greens – he's right, we think they are nuts. Now, any honest righty, has to admit the the Greens do make some pertinent points. And they have/are changing the way will view our environment.

    Take farmers for example. Farmers have made huge strides with environmental management of their farms. Their thanks for that effort is Labour dumping on them, and Delahunty’ still not happy with farmers. Meanwhile, the latte drinking, Fair Trade shopping, organic munching, vegan touting city Green slicker, who lives in an environment that may be more detrimental towards global pollution gets a free ride.

    Yeah, we don't like the Greens.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [long standing policy, no climate denial under my posts. – weka]

    • woodart 2.1
      12 January 2022 at 9:17 am

      do you speak for all idiots, or just a small percentage?

      • Blade 2.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 9:28 am

        I speak for myself. Do you have anything to add apart from nothing?

        • Blade 2.1.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 9:32 am

          No, I believe the climate is changing. Man, has little to do with it.

          Al Gore is yanking your chain. In fact I shouldn't be writng this because I should be under 3 metres of water according to one nut I read.

          Bush fires are also caused by climate change apparently.

          Opps, reply meant for Robert.

          • Gezza 2.1.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 9:50 am

            No I believe the climate is changing. Man, has little to do with it.

            Al Gore is yanking your chain. In fact I shouldn’t be writng this because I should be under 3 metres of water according to one nut I read.

            The fact that some early AGW climate change alarmists got their predictions horribly wrong about how quickly the ice would melt & seas flood low-lying regions, & didn’t understand the complexity of how AGW would affect jet streams & weather systems (producing the weather extremes & anomalies we are seeing far more of today) doesn’t mean the theory & science is wrong.

            I think the science is now being proved right every year, with increasing ice mass loss, many more weather extremes, oceans warming, and in this country ever warmer Winters.

            But, if you believe the climate is changing but anthropogenic global warming is not the cause, what do you believe the cause actually is?

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1.2
            12 January 2022 at 9:51 am

            "In fact I shouldn't be writing this…"

            Weka agrees.

            Thanks, weka.

            Edit: Blade! Don’t look up! 🙂

            • weka 2.1.1.1.2.1
              12 January 2022 at 10:00 am

              Always helpful to moderation when people make their position abundantly clear 😈

            • weka 2.1.1.1.2.2
              12 January 2022 at 10:13 am

              lol the edit. That phrase is going to be handy.

              Haven't had to tell people not to do climate denial under my posts for ages. Don't even bother putting a note at the bottom of the posts now. Things have changed.

              • Robert Guyton …
                12 January 2022 at 10:41 am

                There's still a calcified core, an atrophied nub, a wizened vestigial appendage, that can't rid itself of the nagging doubt that seizes it when it look out its own window and sees clear skies.

                Probably confused also as to why its neighbour doesn't have Covid.

                Probably a hoax.

                The whole thing.

                Moon landing…

                Dinosaurs…

                Apparently, satellites have revealed the remains of what can only be Noah's ark, on the high slopes of Mount Ararat, or Arrowroot, or somewhere.

                I knew it!

                • Blade …
                  12 January 2022 at 11:28 am

                  ''There's still a calcified core, an atrophied nub, a wizened vestigial appendage, that can't rid itself of the nagging doubt that seizes it when it look out its own window and sees clear skies.''

                  I bit of self reflection on your part is not a bad thing, Robert. Man made climate change believers are no different to deniers.

                  The first time I came across CC as a theory was in a eco/ greenie mag called Maggie's Farm ( circa1986).

                  An article in that mag was by R,HeruAyani and Parri White: Quote:

                  ''While you sleep weather extremes around the world are breaking century old records''

                  They went on suggest ozone depletion as a major cause of climate change. Of course that is still debated.

                  CC is the meme for our age. In a 100 years time this time period will be a major study in universities around the world. Students will gasp at how science became a political expedient for pushing agendas.

          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.3
            12 January 2022 at 10:04 am

            For an antiscience guy you come across well normally. All that hooha about the hockey stick turned out to be due to using wrong data sets. I read a book about it once by a denier & thought it rather good at the time but years later became aware that the deniers were misrepresenting a northern hemisphere regional effect as global. Still not sure if it was deliberate fakery or inadvertent confusion on their part. Think it was either the medieval warming period or the little ice age that followed that they used. I vaguely recall the logic ran like this: doesn't show up on Gore's hockey stick so he got it wrong.

            Well, elementary! Gore didn't conjure anything. He used the results of the global measuring system. On the volcano in Hawaii, if I recall right, there's a sampling station.

            Major regional variations that produce different climates are extremely interesting and haven't featured much in media. The one that created the Sahara, for instance, only a few millennia back. Israel was the land of milk & honey according to the bible when Joshua led his genocide campaign on God's instruction to kill all the indigenous people including women & children. Now mostly desert. Cedars of Lebanon built Solomon's temple.

            • Blade 2.1.1.1.3.1
              12 January 2022 at 11:37 am

              Maybe I should cancel my NewScientist subscription, Dennis? Maybe I should give it to you?surprise

              • Dennis Frank …
                12 January 2022 at 11:47 am

                I left the mainstream science view behind over half a century ago, even before I graduated. Not saying NS has no value – probably do still publish worthy stuff – but not enough leading-edge focus for me. Think the last one I checked out was in the '80s.

                • Blade …
                  12 January 2022 at 12:06 pm

                  Well, Nature is meant to be the gold standard in academic research publication. But they are so blinkered I don't waste my time. Can you suggest suitable reading material.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    12 January 2022 at 12:23 pm

                    Depends on your interests – there's no go to place for all of science. I started in physics but shifted towards a multidisciplinary overview. About the only useful skill you get from universities is an inkling of how to learn. Scan a bunch of sources to get the gist of the topic, that sort of thing.

                    If your inner bullshit detector is good, figure out the authorities in the field of interest, then go for those currently setting the pace. Especially useful are books written by experts who are trying to inform the public about key findings.

                    One needs to be able to detect any ideology driving the author, and then gauge how much it warps his/her judgment of the elements of significance in the field or in the issues. Bias is human nature but it need not put a reader off if you can see how much it is affecting the author's descriptions.

                • lprent …
                  12 January 2022 at 1:15 pm

                  but not enough leading-edge focus for me

                  NS was and still is useful for getting an short overview across a large number of fields. I have never read it for depth. I have read it for overview.

                  Periodically I renew a online subscription – but it really depends on how flush I feel, and if I think I have time to read it. It is (for instance) way behind my annual payment to wikipedia – which I random read topics on for much the same reasons that I have read NS.

                  But these days I seem to get an awful lot of cheaper online linkages.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    12 January 2022 at 1:37 pm

                    I seem to get an awful lot of cheaper online linkages

                    Yeah, me too. I agree a wiki on a topic is fastest & easiest for an overview. It will usually be near the top of our google search page.

                    Striking gold online is still a function of optimal keyword selection. That's an internal mental discipline that all long-time users refine but I'm always impressed by how often minor variations throw up new gold nuggets when searching online.

                    • McFlock …
                      12 January 2022 at 3:46 pm

                      Striking gold online is still a function of optimal keyword selection.

                      It's funny. I use a couple of programs at work, but we collaborate with other people and that can involve figuring out the basics of programs completely new to me.

                      Trying to do the same stuff in each program, there are a couple of new-to-me programs that my ignorance of is so complete that I can't even reliably google how to do something. The developers and operating community have such a completely different orientation to my brainstylez that I literally don't have the words.

                      R is a good example: to take a column from one table and join it with another is the function "cbind". So you need to know that the math crowd call them "columns" not "fields" in order to get the "c", and they "bind" rather than "join" or "merge" to get the rest of the function name. I was script-punching without any understanding for months before that clicked in my head. Which meant my google searches were all about "fields" and "joins" in R, and bore little fruit and I flailed about in the water, praying for the project to end lol.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      12 January 2022 at 4:35 pm

                      Technicalities in your 3rd paragraph defeat my comprehension but I get the overall gist. Reminds us that we need language to communicate, and language is produced by a community.

                      Decoding, deciphering, requires an interpretive key, schema, algorithm. So you get a triadic structure: system A, bridging key, system B – which often maps onto the relation of person to group. The relation then becomes an info channel or conduit.

              • Anker …
                12 January 2022 at 1:08 pm

                New Scientist subscription? Blade are you by any chance Deborah Russell.

                She seems to get her information on biological science from New Scientist, claming that she read there that sex was on a spectrum. Its not. With the exception of a fraction of a fraction of people (intersex, but not most intersex) humans are either male or female and you can't change your biological sex

                • Blade …
                  12 January 2022 at 3:24 pm

                  See Iprent's post above. He hits the nail on the head regarding NS.

                  Apart from that I wouldn't have a clue what your post is about. I'm sure it's something profound. It's just a little over my IQ quadrant.

                  • Anker …
                    13 January 2022 at 2:34 pm

                    Hi Blade, yes apologies that was a bit obscure.

                    in the Select Committee hearings on the BMDRR Bill Deborah Russell quoted or rather mis-quoted an article from Scientific American about 3. or 4 times, saying sex was on a spectrum.

          • coge 2.1.1.1.4
            12 January 2022 at 4:13 pm

            Have existed in that amazingly vast, chaotic, open, non linear, long term stable system that is the Earths climate for 56 years. I can confirm I haven't noticed any unusual changes at all over that time. And I live on the coast.

            • Macro 2.1.1.1.4.1
              12 January 2022 at 4:29 pm

              https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/ocean-temperatures-earth-heat-increase-record

              Last year the oceans absorbed heat equivalent to seven Hiroshima atomic bombs detonating each second, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year

              But don't let that bother you. With your head firmly in the sand dunes you won't see a thing.

              • In Vino …
                12 January 2022 at 8:24 pm

                I agree with Macro. Unlike coge, I look for signs. I like to sail on an inland lake. In summer 30 years ago we would often get 15+ knots of sea breeze come inland from the coast. Now we have a maritime heat wave: the sea water around NZ is at record warmth. With less temperature differential, we now get only a mild sea breeze, usually later in the day. OK coge?

      • Blade 2.1.2
        12 January 2022 at 10:48 am

        Sorry, I didn't know that. But I wasn't denying climate change.

        • weka 2.1.2.1
          12 January 2022 at 10:54 am

          denial includes denial that humans are causing it.

          • Blade 2.1.2.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 12:00 pm

            No, it doesn't. What it includes is two theories about climate change if you believe the climate is changing. You have made your mind up on vacillating evidence. I also have made my mind up on vacillating evidence. The science is not proven in my opinion. When it is I will be more than happy to admit I'm wrong….will you ? I find it a worry that there is no middle ground with many on this blog. Even though I have conceded points to the Greens in my original post, that's not good enough. That attitude is fine on a blog. But that attitude in society is a real problem…as is well documented at the moment. It's also why I want the Greens to be nowhere near the true levers of power.

            • weka 2.1.2.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 12:12 pm

              The precautionary principle says it doesn't matter who is willing to admit they are wrong. Compare the damage done if you are right compared to if I am.

            • weka 2.1.2.1.1.2
              12 January 2022 at 12:12 pm

              just pointing out where the boundaries are for commenting under my posts.

              I also consider ‘it’s too late’ and ‘there’s nothing we can do’ to be a form of denial and have a limited tolerance for that.

              • Blade …
                12 January 2022 at 2:52 pm

                ''The precautionary principle says it doesn't matter who is willing to admit they are wrong. Compare the damage done if you are right compared to if I am.''

                There's a fair point there. One spin off from a CC precautionary principle as you put it, is a focus on environmental pollution and steps under way to curtail that problem worldwide. I don't know of any environmental pollution deniers.

                The problem with the present situation is the indoctrination of bright young minds by a school system that at its higher levels will book no alternative views to accepted current thought on climate change.

                Then we have the ''The New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme.' and carbon credits sinking good NZ farming land into pine trees. Just last night a news item showed a major East Coast pastural farm waiting for permission to be sold to overseas buyers. Probably for planting in pines.

                • weka …
                  12 January 2022 at 5:24 pm

                  You can blame National, Act, NZF and to an extent Labour for that. The Greens had a different plan, that would have integrated environmental protection and regeneration.

            • Dennis Frank 2.1.2.1.1.3
              12 January 2022 at 12:32 pm

              I use both/and logic to transcend a binary like that. For instance, we know that natural climate change happens and sufficient evidence exists to give us confidence that AGW is a happening thing.

              I encountered both/and logic in electronic circuit design & applied maths (1968/9) but due to being a lateral thinker I noticed I could use it as an abstract metaphysical framing device. Works well as such & very useful in politics.

        • Gezza 2.1.2.2
          12 January 2022 at 12:03 pm

          But I wasn’t denying climate change.

          Still waiting for your answer to my question what do YOU think is causing it, Blade?

          • Blade 2.1.2.2.1
            12 January 2022 at 3:06 pm

            ''Sorry, Gezza. We have debated this issue ( not just you) many times before on different blogs. It just becomes a post/link feast of differing supposed official views.''

            See Drowsy M. Kram's post above.

    • weka 2.2
      12 January 2022 at 9:47 am

      mod note for you Blade

    • Puckish Rogue 2.3
      12 January 2022 at 10:04 am

      Personally I think The Greens should take a play out of Winstons playbook (only a small play) and stop saying they'll only go with Labour, stop letting Labour take them for granted.

      I'm not saying go with National just to show Labour up but make Labour come to the table and offer them good reasons to go with Labour

      At the moment The Greens are Labours doormat or maybe a better analogy would be The Greens are the faithful stay at home girlfriend that doesn't even get a bunch of flowers every now and then and Labour is the philandering boyfriend that goes around trying to woo other parties (Winston) and when all else fails for Labour they can slink off back to The Greens who'll welcome them back with open…arms, every time.

      Basically The Greens should know their true worth and play a little hard to get sometimes

      Of course if National were to offer enough concessions then The Greens could use that to leverage more gains from Labour…

      • weka 2.3.1
        12 January 2022 at 10:12 am

        this is a good argument, apart from the the idea of forming government with National 😉

        I'm not saying go with National just to show Labour up but make Labour come to the table and offer them good reasons to go with Labour

        Yes. My argument is that their position should be 'cross benches or coalition, the choice is ours'. That's where the leverage is now.

        It's never going to be with National, because the Greens won't support formation of a National government. The GP suggesting they might would be lying.

        • Puckish Rogue 2.3.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 10:20 am

          'It's never going to be with National, because the Greens won't support formation of a National government. The GP suggesting they might would be lying.'

          I'm not saying they should, could or would go with National but by taking it off the table without knowing what National would offer simply devalues
          The Greens own worth and if the next National government gets another three terms then thats 9 years without Green policy

          How well has this Labour government done on child poverty, on housing, on the environment yet The Greens are not even willing to listen to any offer that National makes in the future…

          "Don't put passion before principle. Even if (you) win, you lose."

          • Robert Guyton 2.3.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 10:32 am

            The Greens should try to "play" the big parties?

            Coquettishly fluttering their eyelashes at National, to make Labour jealous in the hope they'll shower them with gifts and enticements?

            A bit transparent though, isn't it?

            Green supporters like myself would cringe at the antics.

            Better to accept the lop-sidedness of politics, hold fast to the best position available and apply the squeeze to the inner-organs in order to extract the most juice available, whether the public can see it or not (mostly not, it seems, judging from comments here).

            • Puckish Rogue 2.3.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 10:41 am

              'A bit transparent though, isn't it?'

              In politics the more transparency the better I'd have thought

              'Green supporters like myself would cringe at the antics.'

              I guess it comes down to what you consider more important I guess, pride or results.

              Pride or cleaner rivers

              Pride or increased funding for pest control

              Etc etc

              • Robert Guyton …
                12 January 2022 at 10:45 am

                National for clean rivers!

                That sort of thing?

                Have the Nats fallen out with farmers?

                I hadn't heard!

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  12 January 2022 at 11:02 am

                  Missing the point Robert (deliberately so I'm thinking)

                  Go into talks with National, don't agree to anything but just talk, thereby gain greater concessions from Labour than you otherwise would get from Labour for the things you care about

                  Remember Labour is not your friend, they will ditch you when it becomes politically expedient so use Labour (or National) when you can for the greater good of NZ

                  Or not.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    12 January 2022 at 11:13 am

                    "Go into talks with National, don't agree to anything but just talk, thereby gain greater concessions from Labour than you otherwise would get from Labour for the things you care about"

                    Seems VERY naive, Pucky!

                    National are hardly likely to want to "go into talks" with The Greens, in the knowledge that all that could result is The Greens getting more influence in a Labour-led government, than they would have if they didn't hold the talks with the Nats!

                    Or are you suggesting The Greens should trick National, mislead them into thinking they might coalesce with them, if the offers were good enough…

                    It's that sort of underhand behaviour us Green supporters don't thrill to, I suggest 🙂

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      12 January 2022 at 11:20 am

                      'It's that sort of underhand behaviour us Green supporters don't thrill to, I suggest'

                      Good luck playing second fiddle to Winston or the next political party that comes along and talks to both sides

                    • Gezza …
                      12 January 2022 at 11:49 am

                      Pucky, my 2c worth is that the only point in the Greens being prepared to hold coalition talks with National would be if National had a major shift in their (yet to be announced, under Luxon) policies that indicated a significant paradigm shift towards more social & environmental policies that the Greens might find a match to Labour’s, such that they had a REAL choice of influencing either Labour OR National even more towards policies that matched the issues the Greens campaign on.

                      I agree the Greens shouldn’t rule out a coalition with National on principle, but frankly I don’t see this paradigm shift happening with National. And absent that shift, I can’t see the point in the Greens going thru the motions only with National in the forlorn hope Labour might feel compelled to give them more. I don’t think Labour are that naïve.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      12 January 2022 at 12:17 pm

                      Then they should resign themselves to always, and I mean always, getting less than they're worth and not even being in coalition government if Labour need votes elsewhere

                      Which I guess, in real terms, means the environment will always be worse off

                    • Gezza …
                      12 January 2022 at 1:02 pm

                      I think I stated my point of view badly. I think the Greens should drop their habitual statement of a refusal on principle to consider coalition talks with National.

                      But they should ONLY actually go into coalition talks with National post-election if National are campaigning on some Green-friendly policies that indicate the Greens might have some realistic hope of gaining policy concessions from National on climate, social & environmental policies in line with the Greens strong policy positions on these issues.

                      It’s up to National whether they indicate a willingness to meet the Greens halfway.

                      If National under Luxon shows no prior willingness to accommodate Green-friendly policies then Labour is NOT going to feel any pressure to concede more than they already have to the Greens – UNLESS they will be dependent on Green MP votes to form a government. Then, the Greens have leverage, obviously.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      12 January 2022 at 1:18 pm

                      'I think the Greens should drop their habitual statement of a refusal on principle to consider coalition talks with National.'

                      – Agreed 100%

                      'But they should ONLY actually go into coalition talks with National post-election if National are campaigning on some Green-friendly policies that indicate the Greens might have some realistic hope of gaining policy concessions from National on climate, social & environmental policies in line with the Greens strong policy positions on these issues.'

                      – Again agreed

                      'It’s up to National whether they indicate a willingness to meet the Greens halfway.'

                      – Slightly disagree, far too much of the tail wagging the dog goes on with MMP, imho, but certainly National should go in with good faith

                      'If National under Luxon shows no prior willingness to accommodate Green-friendly policies then Labour is NOT going to feel any pressure to concede more than they already have to the Greens – UNLESS they will be dependent on Green MP votes to form a government. Then, the Greens have leverage, obviously.'

                      – If The Greens are willing to use that leverage

                    • Gezza …
                      12 January 2022 at 1:40 pm

                      If The Greens are willing to use that leverage

                      They’d be crazy NOT to in that situation, Pucky. They’d have 2 years to go to find a way to mollify irritated voters if some hard Green policies were implemented in the first year of a coalition or support agreement. NZ voters forget quickly. That’s what Winston Peters traded on so well for decades.

          • weka 2.3.1.1.2
            12 January 2022 at 11:01 am

            'It's never going to be with National, because the Greens won't support formation of a National government. The GP suggesting they might would be lying.'

            I'm not saying they should, could or would go with National but by taking it off the table without knowing what National would offer simply devalues

            How would that work though? Because the Greens and everyone already know what National would offer, and the Greens have decided that there's nothing there for them. What you are suggesting is a major change in GP positioning from where it is now (National and Greens have no shared policy on which to cooperate) to one that is saying 'we will negotiate with National'.

            The Greens own worth and if the next National government gets another three terms then thats 9 years without Green policy

            Lol. The Greens worth is dependent upon not lying to the public and not supporting an anti-environment, anti-social justice government. If National have such shit green policies, that's on National and Nat voters, not the Greens.

            How well has this Labour government done on child poverty, on housing, on the environment yet The Greens are not even willing to listen to any offer that National makes in the future…

            Are you taking the piss? The Greens sit to the left of Labour. What could National possibly have to offer that would be of interest. Details please.

            "Don't put passion before principle. Even if (you) win, you lose."

            GP basic position is: don't compromise on values, be flexible on policy negotiations. That's principle.

      • Dennis Frank 2.3.2
        12 January 2022 at 10:13 am

        if National were to offer enough concessions

        The sky might fall. Can't have that! So you can see why they don't. In fact, their use of the precautionary principle has been exemplary: so far, not a single Nat leader has even offered a single concession!

        Fear of flying. Need to remain a limpet & cling on to that rock! 🙄

        I haven’t forgotten that James, when he became co-leader, responded to a critique along your lines by saying of the Nats “Well, if they send me a proposal, I’ll consider it.” The timid wee things weren’t brave enough to do so…

    • Anne 2.4
      12 January 2022 at 10:55 am

      Blade @ 2.
      Jesus, a climate denier still exists in the face of damning evidence across the globe. I thought they had gone into hiding with their tails between their legs. So they should.

      Farmers have made huge strides with environmental management of their farms. Their thanks for that effort is Labour dumping on them,

      Bullshit. Labour has frequently commended these farmers for the environmental work they are doing. I am not going to scrawl through hordes of items looking for them, but there is plenty of evidence that the Labour Govt. has acknowledged the contribution being made by farmers. Not all farmers mind…

      We have a CC denier in the face of so much to the contrary who infers to being environmentally conscious. There's a name for such people but it monetarily escapes me.

      • Blade 2.4.1
        12 January 2022 at 4:51 pm

        Intelligent.

        • Anne 2.4.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 5:29 pm

          A person with oxymoron characteristics is more like it.

        • Gezza 2.4.1.2
          12 January 2022 at 5:35 pm

          No, Contrarian would be the right word in your case.

          An intelligent person would be able to clearly articulate WHY they consider that all the scientists who agree that the evidence is incontrovertible that AGWCC is actually happening are wrong – by stating what scientific evidence they are relying on is incorrect, and precisely why and how it is incorrect. Or at the very least be able to summarise their argument along those lines. Imo.

          An unintelligent or lazy person would say that all those scientists are simply wrong, that they are captured by [insert political correctness, groupthink, govt funding, or whatever other criticism they currently favour], & should not be indoctrinating children, but not be able to back that statement up with a competing scientific explanation &/or links and/or their own favourite theory that explains why climate change is happening & they don’t dispute that.

  3. jay11 3
    12 January 2022 at 10:38 am

    Jmho The Greens shld have bailed out of the coalition when LINO ( Labour in name only) brought in social apartheid against the unvaxed. The evidence is the unvaxed are no danger to the nation's health and to coerce with mandates on pain of losing your livelihood and social exclusion is a crime against citizens and humanity.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  4. Tricledrown 4
    12 January 2022 at 10:43 am

    Unfortunately it seems like you can't change pugnacious Rogue!

  5. Reality 5
    12 January 2022 at 10:56 am

    Many people I come across think the Greens are very well-intentioned but impractical. In particular their cycle lane emphasis for a region like Wellington. In the Hutt at great cost a cycle lane was put right through from the northern end into the city, and completed months ago. Rarely, very rarely, is a cyclist seen on it. And not just from my observation, but others as well. Given the rare usage it was a very expensive project.

    However, the Hutt river trail which has been there for many years is well used, particularly at weekends.

    As for Wellington – the narrow, hilly streets and the strong winds mean only a tiny number of cyclists will ever be brave enough to navigate the dangerous streets.

    Wellington is not Amsterdam or Copenhagen. Now the talk is to get rid of cars in the central city and rely on a very unreliable bus system. So shoppers with their parcels, the elderly or those with a disability, young mums with a baby and toddler, business people, people going to dentist/doctor appointments, will be very inconvienced. The Green councillors need a reality check. Not everyone is able to walk one end of the city to the other if the bus is full, or fails to turn up (happens often).

    What are the practical, real solutions for Wellington's situation? Talk has been going on for years and years.

    • Puckish Rogue 5.1
      12 January 2022 at 11:16 am

      Agreed.

      Cycle lanes and rail trails are great, I've walked the Central Otago Rail Trail (well mostly) and plan on doing it again but practicalities must come into it

      Personally I'd like to see councils and the government put on more free buses in and around city centres, have more routes, have more buses

      Not because I like the idea of subsidies but its the only way more people will use the buses and then less people will need to take vehicles into the city if the buses are more convenient

      (I personally don't go into the city much at all, try to avoid it as much as possible)

  6. miravox 6
    12 January 2022 at 11:00 am

    It's been bugging me – and the "It's Time' post is pretty clogged up, so I'll ask here –

    Julian Richards described our healthcare system as "McDonald's Heathcare in several comments and when asked, said

    McDonald's heathcare, that's a pretty clear conceptual metaphor.

    I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

    What's McDonald's about it? Is it:

    – finding someone when you need them, saying "how can I help you?"

    – the list of goods you can pick off a predefined menu?

    – mass production churning out the same quality product to each outlet?

    – the same service and menu for everyone regardless of ethnicity, sex, gender, age, occupation, income and location.

    – that it's readily available everywhere?

    – that it's bad for you in large doses?

    or is that there's always someone asking "would you like fries with that?"

    because sure as heck, there are no added extras in the public health system and I can't envisage any of the other comparisons working either.

    Can anyone clarify for this unimaginative person?

    • weka 6.1
      12 January 2022 at 11:04 am

      Julian can't (or won't) even explain his own argument, so I'm not sure anyone else can either 😉

    • Robert Guyton 6.2
      12 January 2022 at 11:07 am

      Your confusion is down to Julian's obfuscation, miravox.

      "McDonald's heathcare, that's a pretty clear conceptual metaphor" illustrates his method of "debate" where he sweeps the table clean of crockery and cutlery, then demands you reset it yourself, if you're not happy!

      (How's that for a pretty clear conceptual metaphor?)

      • weka 6.2.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:15 am

        that's a fantastic and very clear conceptual metaphor Robert 😁

      • miravox 6.2.2
        12 January 2022 at 11:28 am

        I can see that one quite clearly 🙂

      • Shanreagh 6.2.3
        12 January 2022 at 11:34 am

        I get that and it is a good description of the process, added to it he snaps out the comment in a muffled way, that you cannot quite hear or grasp, as he goes out the door never to be seen again to give guidance. So you reset and he again the comment is repeated and again you can't get the relevance, so you look carefully at the crockery and start again with what you think you heard. Again he returns and says that everything you have done proves that

        a you didn't know what a table is, dishes are

        b you lack sympathy or empathy for what the dishes or table is going through and that is wrong

        or

        you have empathy or sympathy for what the dishes or table is going through and that is wrong

        smileywink

    • Bill 6.3
      12 January 2022 at 11:10 am

      I'm guessing it was a reference to the "one size fits all" aspect of the so-called Public Health response.

      In other words, it's using the "bog standard" McD model of 'food' (a McD is a McD is a McD and everyone gets the same McD no matter where in the world) as a contrast to the very basic medical premise that patients are individual people with individual and various medical needs – that's been cast aside in favour of the singular focus of "injections for all".

      • miravox 6.3.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:45 am

        ah, I see. He's… not right (imo).

        Our public health response to covid is the Swiss Cheese model

        Moreover, the response has adapted to see individuals and groups. I am definitely one who was critical of the lack of bespoke vaccine roll-outs, in particular, for various groups (happy with the routine MIQ part of the response though – I don't think people should be treated differently in this instance. But that's the problem isn't it – different parts of the response require different strategies to make it work.

        I guess it depends on how important you see vaccination in the response. I see it as critical, just the way I see treated drinking water as critical to avoiding cholera… maybe that's a McDonald's 3-waters response?

        I just hope it's not a common phrasing (I'd not heard it before). I don't think it's helpful for anyone in healthcare debates.

      • Shanreagh 6.3.2
        12 January 2022 at 11:45 am

        Really? far be for me to query about the McDonalds menu. I my life I have only ever had two Burgers from McDonalds……one here in Wellington that was completely unremarkable but I did notice the pickle. Then after being hungry and a bit lost in a Mexican city, Guadalajara I think, I had the same at a McDonalds there and noticed that the pickle was completely different, the salad was different as well.

        Public Health works on/with populations.

        Injections have been recommended, They have not be forced on people no matter what kind of hyperbole you believe surrounds it.

        There have been clinics for and attention paid to the immuno compromised. I am not sure what could be done about the nay sayers except to provide cool, calm and reliable information together with good access to facilities and let them make up their minds.

      • miravox 6.3.3
        12 January 2022 at 12:06 pm

        Btw -thanks for your response to my comment on the 'it's time' post – much appreciated

        (I couldn't leave a response to you there for some reason)

    • Puckish Rogue 6.4
      12 January 2022 at 11:11 am

      The ice cream machine is always broken?

    • Shanreagh 6.5
      12 January 2022 at 11:25 am

      If it is any consolation I don't get the McDonalds health care metaphor and it is it not clear or conceptual. That poster often has Farcebook like responses or reckons and rarely cites.

      He has said (further up in the discussion you have linked to) that natural immunity is better, an anti vax stance that taken to its logical end would mean that many many more people would die in search of a natural immunity to Covid. Many more would recover with long term deficits – Long Covid. Speaking of the Alpha and Delta variants.

      Here is a link to Johns Hopkins – a source I would trust https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know.

      It was known early on that antibodies built up by the body after having a Covid infection were not long lasting, transitory, was one word I remember hearing. This then led to people being reinfected well after the 28 day period allowed for recovery from Covid19.

      • Robert Guyton 6.5.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:39 am

        Thanks, Shanreagh – I too thought about this issue of "natural immunity" and considered the phenomenon in terms of the seasonal "flu". It may be, as weka indicates, that some "bolstering" of a person's immune system occurs with an initial dose of the flu, but in terms of the response to a new virus, I can't see that. Your body's "readiness" to fight infection will perhaps be enhanced but I'm not sure how. There will be people who can explain this, no doubt.

        • Shanreagh 6.5.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 12:00 pm

          We don't develop a natural immunity to influenza and for those who have had it and had a bad time the stage is always ready for another infection. That is the reason for the flu injections that are tweaked each year to hopefully provide immunity.

          I think the colds, influenza and covid have some of the same family. Omicron apparently has the covid virus plus it has wrapped in part of a cold virus. I thought initially that if they do find a vaccine for Omicron, and Pfizer says that would be worthwhile, we might be on the way to finding a vaccine to prevent the common cold. This might be useful for immuno compromised people or for those who have recurrent asthma or bronchitis brought on or exacerbated by the common cold.

          I have heard said that getting Covid, and running the risk that you might die or get Long Covid and then being vaccinated as soon as you can after leaving hospital will provide a very strong immunity. Not sure if that is to variants and if it wanes after a year or six months.

          Personally that is a bridge too fr for me to think that getting Covid has some sort of merit. Knowing my luck and medical history, I would be one who either died or got Long Covid. The vaccine is much less risky.

          • weka 6.5.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 12:33 pm

            We don't develop a natural immunity to influenza and for those who have had it and had a bad time the stage is always ready for another infection. That is the reason for the flu injections that are tweaked each year to hopefully provide immunity.

            That wasn't my argument. My argument was that some people appear to get a stronger immune system from having cold or flu where they have certain advantages (eg good health, the ability to take time off work to recover, good nutritional status and so on).

            I don't believe this is true for covid at this time, it's novel to every human and we're still struggling to adapt.

        • miravox 6.5.1.2
          12 January 2022 at 12:03 pm

          I too thought about this issue of "natural immunity"…

          Djokovich's double dose of covid seems to negate the natural immunity theory. Although obviously is subject to interpretation

          • Shanreagh 6.5.1.2.1
            12 January 2022 at 12:08 pm

            Who knows with this person……..

            Seems pretty fast and loose about many things connected with his testing, infections etc.

            I don't think we can derive much learning about immunity or covid from that story.

            • miravox 6.5.1.2.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 1:03 pm

              No, he's not the sort of model for people with genuine concerns about the vaccine roll-out would want – and there are some. e.g. pharma excess profits (still), RATs fiasco in Aust, roll-out to poorer countries.

              The Australian court of public opinion will be swift and harsh in their verdict, I expect, if he's found to be gaming the system.

        • Bill 6.5.1.3
          12 January 2022 at 12:22 pm

          Recent studies (and sorry, but I'm not in the space to hunt through the comments to find previously provided links atm) show that whereas infection with Omicron confers immunity to Delta, infection with Delta does not confer immunity to Omicron.

          What I think we'd all agree on, is that if the doctor offered us the flu jab that was distributed to offer protection for the 2019 flu season for the 2022 flu season, we'd look at them sideways.

          • weka 6.5.1.3.1
            12 January 2022 at 12:35 pm

            the point is that none of the protection gained from previous infection lasts or can be relied upon during an pandemic. It's not that there is none, it's that some people are arguing that it's a replacement for vaccination or other measures. It's not. We need all the tools.

            • Bill 6.5.1.3.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 12:51 pm

              the point is that none of the protection gained from previous infection lasts or can be relied upon during an pandemic

              We don't know how long it lasts – but people absolutely do have immunity conferred by previous infection. The notion that a vaccine targeting only one receptor of a virus might be more effective than naturally acquired immunity that targets a broad range of receptors is….odd.

              Protection from m-RNA vaccines wanes drastically over weeks to months, whereas natural immunity persists beyond the useful "shelf life" of the vaccines we're deploying.

              So far, the only exception on natural immunity would appear to be that none is conferred by Delta for Omicron (but Omicron infection protects against Delta infection)

              • Robert Guyton …
                12 January 2022 at 1:59 pm

                "So far, the only exception on natural immunity would appear to be that none is conferred by Delta for Omicron (but Omicron infection protects against Delta infection)"

                Isn't that the whole point of the boosters?

                If though, the boosters contain the exact-same formula the previous Pfizer vaccination contained, I'd be siding with Bill in asking wtf 🙂

                Do they?

                Are they up-grades?

                • Bill …
                  12 January 2022 at 4:57 pm

                  They are exactly the same. And Pfizer isn't expressing much confidence in their drug any more.

                  two doses of BNT162b2 may not be sufficient to protect against infection with the Omicron variant

                  It might still lessen severity of illness, but given Omicron appears to present as a common cold in most….

    • arkie 7.1
      12 January 2022 at 11:12 am

      The overwhelming number of deaths (of vaccinated people), over 75% occurred in people who had at least 4 comorbidities

      Further information

      Walensky explained: "A study of 1.2 million people who were vaccinated between December and October demonstrated that severe disease occurred in about 0.015 percent of the people who received their primary series and death in 0.003 percent of those people."

      In a tweet posted on January 9 following the GMA interview, Walensky said: "We must protect people with comorbidities from severe #COVID19. I went into medicine – HIV specifically – and public health to protect our most at-risk. CDC is taking steps to protect those at highest risk, incl. those w/ chronic health conditions, disabilities & older adults."

      • Bill 7.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:51 am

        Nice clarification. Wonder if the overall co-morbidity of people classified as "covid death", (ie both vaxxed and unvaxxed) reportedly over 90% with an average of four co-morbidities , stands?

        • joe90 7.1.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 12:18 pm

          Pretty damned broad list, from Candidiasis of vulva and vagina to Victim of lightning, so hardly surprising almost everybody died with a comorbidity

          Conditions contributing to deaths involving COVID-19, by age group, United States. Week ending 2/1/2020 to 12/5/2020.
          Data as of 12/6/2020
          Source: National Center for Health Statistics. National Vital Statistics System. Provisional data. 2020.

          This table shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019
          (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on
          average, there were 2.9 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and
          by age groups. Values in the table represent number of deaths that mention the condition listed and 94% of deaths mention more than one
          condition. As such, the rows should not be summed. Additional notes are listed at the end of the table          .

          https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

          • Bill 7.1.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 1:01 pm

            so hardly surprising almost everybody died with a comorbidity

            And that's the nub of it. Did they die with or because of a comorbidity, or did they die with or because of Covid infection?

            At present and with very few 'news' reports offering up qualifiers, deaths 'with' and 'because of' are lumped in together and misleadingly presented as covid deaths.

            Clunky language coming up – it makes quite a difference to an average person's perception if 800 000 covid deaths, becomes 800 000 deaths, a large number of which were among people generally suffering from comorbidities where tests revealed that covid was present.

            • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 2:53 pm

              If they didn't die of covid, then where are all the extra dead people coming from?

    • weka 7.2
      12 January 2022 at 11:13 am

      No idea what you mean, but re that video, it's been snipped to manipulate.

      Here are the longer versions of the interview,

      https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1480710199203844098

      I don't have time to pick apart the tweet you posted, other than to say fact checking this took me less then five minutes.

      Here's a fact check post,

      https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/walensky-covid-comorbidities

      • Shanreagh 7.2.1
        12 January 2022 at 12:05 pm

        My view is the biggest co morbidity that there is is not having had the vaccination.

        When I read about people dying of Covid that is the first query I have.

        I realise we are going to have breakthroughs to vaccinated people. .

    • joe90 7.3
      12 January 2022 at 11:29 am

      Bingo!

    • mpledger 7.4
      12 January 2022 at 12:10 pm

      From StatsChat

      https://www.statschat.org.nz/2022/01/11/why-screening-is-hard/

      The Covid example of the prevention paradox is the recent and controversial CDC announcement that most (vaccinated) people who get seriously ill from Covid have co-morbidities. On top of the issue of whether that’s actually a cause for rejoicing, there’s the problem that the majority [of] people who don’t get seriously ill from Covid also have co-morbidities.

    • Shanreagh 7.5
      12 January 2022 at 8:29 pm

      Why did you present this version Bill, and not the actual real version that Weka has found?

  8. Puckish Rogue 8
    12 January 2022 at 11:53 am

    Pop culture round up

    Cobra Kai is quite possibly the best thing on TV today

    The first season is, possibly, the best, second and third season were ok but the fourth season is, probably, the best of the lot.

    If you ever wondered what happened to Johnny Lawrence afterwards this is the show for you, want to see older characters treated with respect, dignity yet not put on a pedestal then this is for you, want to see a diverse, respectful yet non-pc show then this for you

    The main characters (Johnny and Daniel) are sort of where you expect them to be. Johnny lives like the 80s never ended and Daniel is successful yet both have growing to do and its a joy to see it happen (albeit rather quickly as its a tv show)

    The kids in the show are probably the weakest part of the show, way 2 and 3 are ok, but in season 4 everything ramps up and even the kids (especially the new kid) are much more interesting

    No one is wholly good, no one is wholly bad (or are they…) everyone is flawed and things are seen from different viewpoints

    This show is what happens when people who care about the characters (and are talented) are allowed to do their thing.

    It sails close to, but never into, parody and is serious enough that you get invested but also funny enough to keep you entertained.

    Eagle Fang for life!

    • McFlock 8.1
      12 January 2022 at 2:59 pm

      It's on my list, lol

      Saw the latest ghostbusters recently. Better storytelling, character arcs, and connection to the originals than the previous version, fair call. But a bit too "plucky children save the world" for my taste.

      It was nice seeing an old-school deeply-constructed movie, though, rather than the standard superhero plotline (ordinary life, powers discovered/team assembled, minor defeat, lighthearted successes as team gels, major crisis, obstacle overcome, characters still the same so you can continue the franchise with little risk).

      Also saw Dune: fecking awesome.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 4:05 pm

        You'll like Cobra Kai, especially season 4

        Ghostbusters: Afterlife had some massive plot holes but they treated the characters with respect and gave the fans what they wanted

        Also compare the treatment of Luke in Disney Star wars to Egon in afterlife to see about how legacy characters should be treated

        I will say McKenna Grace did a really good job and any more Ghostbusters movies with her in it would be well received

        Thanks to Covid a large number of movies have been delayed so we're seeing them now, the M-She-U, James 'Boring' Bond, Disney/Marvel TV series etc so I think we're getting the tail end of a bunch of movies that wouldn't be made today

        Movies where woke/intersectional/whatever is decided before an actual storyline.

        The last three marvel movies made less than the latest Spiderman movie, West Side Story boomed, the 355 bombed

        Theres also been a number of well received movies and tv series that are now showing the studio execs (and shareholders) that listening to twitter and shitting on fans is a sure way to lose money

        So I'm picking that the quality of movies will slowly, but surely, pick up…hopefully

        • McFlock 8.1.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 4:23 pm

          I still disagree on the woke thing – I think it's more that the type of movies became so expensive their funders became risk-averse, going for simple stories if there were other perceived differences from previous moneymakers.

          GB:Afterlife had half the budget of the 2016 movie, and made about the same on the opening weekend.

          • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 4:55 pm

            'GB:Afterlife had half the budget of the 2016 movie, and made about the same on the opening weekend.'

            Any other differences between the two movies you could think of?

            Ok then what about Terminator: Dumb Fate where they kill of John Connor (thus making 1 and 2 pointless), ignore the third movie and have women replace the mens roles and don't try to tell me it wasn't deliberate:

            https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/tim-miller-terminator-dark-fate-scares-internet-trolls-1202156922/

            and it bombed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator:_Dark_Fate

            Woke/Intersectional/whatever you call it is bad for movies.

            What other examples do you want,?

            Charlies Angels: https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/elizabeth-banks-faces-backlash-charlies-angels-interview/

            In an interview last week, she stated that “if this movie doesn’t make money it reinforces a stereotype in Hollywood that men don’t go see women do action movies,”

            Bombed

            Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)

            https://www.indiewire.com/2019/06/birds-of-prey-harley-quinn-less-male-gaze-margot-robbie-1202148124/

            “Yeah, it’s definitely less male gaze–y,” Robbie added.

            also less box office-y and…bombed

            Captain Marvel 2019

            Not a bomb thanks to being in between Infinity War and End Game but how well was it received, well thanks to Brie Larson and her views the sequel is, at this time anyway, going to be The Marvels

            You may not see it but its there, its movies designed to be popular with Twitter and its not working, people are beginning to see and beginning to vote with their wallets

            Thank goodness

            • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2022 at 5:00 pm

              many of those films I haven't seen.

              But the point is that I'm not sure GB:afterlife wouldn't have been dumbed down a bit if it cost twice as much to make.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                12 January 2022 at 5:12 pm

                Trust me on this and don't watch them, they're not even worth pirating because you won't get your time back

                I think its also a case of the cheaper the budget the less likely you'll get studio interference

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(2019_film)

                As a prime example

                • McFlock …
                  12 January 2022 at 5:22 pm

                  Shame the joker was a bunch of crap. Pretty much every decent scene or even shot was ripped off from "an homage to" some other movie.

                  But the best story I heard about cheapness avoiding studio interference was Robert Altman's MAS*H, making a an anti-Vietnam "Korean War" movie in the early 1970s. Turn it in on time and under budget, get away with minimal notes, lol

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    12 January 2022 at 5:53 pm

                    I liked the scene where he shot Robert De Niro…or did he

                    • McFlock …
                      12 January 2022 at 9:50 pm

                      It looked very familiar from somewhere

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      12 January 2022 at 10:17 pm

                      Quite similar to Frank Millers The Dark Knight Returns I thought

                    • McFlock …
                      12 January 2022 at 10:51 pm

                      Never read it – closest I got was the Killing Joke.

                      Nah, I'm pretty sure I've seen that talk show shooting thing on film before. Want to say Network, but that scene had a different vibe. Damned sure I've seen it somewhere, though.

                      But it's largely a pastiche of sequences from other movies – Taxi Driver (you talking to me), The Brave One (subway scene), Fight Club (the "can I be trusted" unreliable memory gambit), even a quick shot from (I think) Saving Private Ryan (but the composition was similar to Shane, too – low defenceless on left, high and armed on right, quiet pause, shot). It's well done, but none of it is particularly new.

                      Although the social awkwardness of the little guy having to ask Fleck to open the door right after Fleck killed his friend was pretty good.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      12 January 2022 at 10:55 pm

                      You should read it as its very good however I will say the artwork isn't quite to my taste

    • weston 8.2
      12 January 2022 at 11:23 pm

      Prob should be called cliche kai and its less cringworthy if its treated as though it is parody in my view pr still would agree it has some redeeming features and does provide a few laughs .Cant imagine how someone could stand to watch it on tv with ads i sure couldnt .

  9. Gezza 9
    12 January 2022 at 1:23 pm

    “An Otorohanga father who sparked a wide-scale search after he went missing with his three young children near Marokopa failed to show up to his first court appearance today and a warrant has been issued for his arrest.

    Thomas Phillips, 34, was charged with wasteful deployment of police resources following the 17-day search in September last year. Phillips, and his three young children, Jayda Jin, 8, Maverick Callum-Phillips, 6, and Ember Phillips, 5, went missing on September 11.

    After an extensive search and rescue effort by a number of emergency services, the local community and iwi, Phillips and his children turned up at his parents’ home on September 28. They had been staying in a tent in dense bush, his family said.
    …
    His lawyer, Garth O’Brien, appeared via audio visual link informing the judge that he hadn’t heard from his client since first informing him of the court date, the Herald understands.

    He also asked to excuse himself from representing Phillips. A warrant was issued for Phillips’ arrest.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/marokopa-mystery-father-tom-phillips-charged-with-wasting-police-resources-fails-to-show-at-court/AQEB7QJQDRLFRHJXTQ2UJC6GIM/
    … … … …

    This is now getting pretty odd. Forgetfulness, or avoidance? One wonders if Mr Phillips might be in need of psychiatric or psychological help.

    • Puckish Rogue 9.1
      12 January 2022 at 1:25 pm

      Those poor kids…

    • Dennis Frank 9.2
      12 January 2022 at 1:47 pm

      in need of psychiatric or psychological help

      I suspected that after his first escapade. So he's gone bush again, looks like. Wonder how stocked-up he's made his hidey hole. Presuming he's on his own this time, wonder if he's got a gun – maybe wearing a MAGA hat…

  10. Gezza 10
    12 January 2022 at 1:31 pm

    “Northland police are continuing to investigate a threat against Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern delivered to letterboxes around Kerikeri. The handwritten flier was delivered to an unknown number of homes, including in the area around Waipapa Rd, last month.

    The message, which managed to spell the Prime Minister’s name wrong, started with: ”Very soon a group of us are going to eradicate Jacinda Adern (sic) from this Earth plain for good”.

    It went on to claim Ardern was killing people and removing their means to live a fair and happy life. It was the second such message delivered in the Waipapa Rd area.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-investigating-threat-against-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-delivered-to-kerikeri-homes/5P4GZIN3GGVF25FYIH3MCHAXPQ/
    … … … … …

    Suspect they meant Earth plane. A hand-written flyer? Most likely an ill-educated nutter. But still, that’s a bit of a worry. Hope the police find this character soonish.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      12 January 2022 at 1:50 pm

      Hillbillies in the Bay of Islands?? Has Kerikeri really drifted that far down-market?

      🤔

      • woodart 10.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 3:15 pm

        having seen the letter on stuff-stuffall(herald) it would appear to be written by somebody with good handwriting skills, used to writing out notices for others to easily read (and obey?). not an illeducated nutter ,but a well educated nutter . not a hillbilly (have you seen hillbillys signs and notices?. a handwriting expert would immediatley say, a well educated white person, educated before the age of spell-check , and text-mispelling, used to writing out notices in large print for others to read,,from around kerikeri, hmm heres a wild stab in the brai, a middle aged white sth african male who works in,or manages an orchard.??? or it could be a disaffected ????

      • Pete 10.1.2
        12 January 2022 at 8:05 pm

        American Shane Chafin got to Kawakawa to demonstrate his particular brand of stupid in his heckling of Jacinda Ardern and there are rabid anti-vaxx pockets and flourishing ignorance through Northland.

        Kerikeri is no exception,.

    • observer 10.2
      12 January 2022 at 3:12 pm

      This is very disturbing, and sadly not new. There have been numerous threats of this nature towards the PM and her family. (And not only Jacinda – you might recall the court case recently of a man found guilty of threatening Simon Bridges and his family).

      Everyone has a responsibility to lower the temperature as debate becomes more and more nasty, even dangerous (and that includes The Standard). Crazy conspiracy theories lead to violence: if you believe the PM is a "dictator" then dictators must be overthrown, right? So for god's sake – for all our sakes – turn it down.

      The NZ Herald comments are behind the paywall, so here is a selection for you all. These are all verbatim comments, and it shows how bad things have become …

      Looks to me like the Government spin department opening their account for the year.

      Are we supposed to feel sorry for her, concerned for her?

      What a nonsense. The alarmist spin is back in overdrive.

      (etc)

      Fortunately, they are in the minority, but remember – these are the ones that got published. Imagine the ones that didn't.

      • Anne 10.2.1
        12 January 2022 at 5:52 pm

        Everyone has a responsibility to lower the temperature as debate becomes more and more nasty, even dangerous…

        Bear in mind the bullying, harassment, intimidation, threats of violence, the lies and all round nastiness is coming from the minority side of the debate. The majority have shown remarkable patience and control, but we have a right – even a duty – to call the minority out on their transgressions and crackpot theories.

    • Blade 10.3
      12 January 2022 at 6:11 pm

      Care to give us a profile of the offender? I would but I'd probably be banned. You bet it's a worry. So many acts of violence can come out of left field.

      • Gezza 10.3.1
        12 January 2022 at 6:59 pm

        I'd rather leave that to the police because I have no idea. Not enough information for me to make an educated guess. The fuzz may know more from their enquiries.

        Possibly someone with an alternative New Age outlook from the misuse of "earth plain" for earthly plane, but who knows – that could just be a ruse? It could be anyone – smart or stupid – at this point.

        • Dennis Frank 10.3.1.1
          12 January 2022 at 7:59 pm

          Random use of capitalization suggests a flakey new-ager. Not younger generation – they all seem allergic to capital letters. But new-agers aren't into violence so someone more fringe than that I reckon.

          • Blade 10.3.1.1.1
            12 January 2022 at 10:51 pm

            '' She is killing our people.'' '' Our means to live'' Business owner? A Maori?

            They can spell 'Eradicate''. They know what that word means, but they cannot spell ''Plane'' in the right context?

            The a in ''happy'' is suss.

            The h is suss.

            Seems to me an attempt to disguise handwriting. What the writer doesn't know is that can never be done 100% successfully.

            Felt pen and I assume thick paper, may hint at craft use, or a business back room?

  11. joe90 11
    12 January 2022 at 4:39 pm

    If the ivermectin doesn't work, the FLCCC, 'Murica's front line covid-19 critical care alliance quacks, have a few suggestions.

    https://twitter.com/twinkbride/status/1480205837721391112

  12. Bill 12
    12 January 2022 at 4:49 pm

    Tuesday the 11th

    “Where the Omicron surge has begun, the priority should be to avoid and reduce harm among the vulnerable, and minimise disruption to health systems and essential services,” Kluge [ WHO Regional Director for Europe] said. “This means prioritising vulnerable people for primary course and booster doses, advising them to avoid closed, crowded spaces, and offering the possibility to work remotely wherever possible until the infection surge passes.”

    Two hours ago

    the WHO Technical Advisory Group on Covid-19 Vaccine Composition (TAG-Co-VAC) said: "A vaccination strategy based on repeated booster doses of the original vaccine composition is unlikely to be appropriate or sustainable."

    So…one booster good, two booster bad? Booster no good? Primary injection good, booster no good? Arse? Elbow? Why is the NZ government about to set 5 year olds and above off on an unsustainable trajectory of injections that were developed for a virus "as was" in 2019 and about which Pfizer says – that two doses of BNT162b2 may not be sufficient to protect against infection with the Omicron variant?

    I guess it must be for the greater good. Or something or other.

    • Anne 12.1
      12 January 2022 at 6:01 pm

      Pfizer announced about 24 hours ago they will have a vaccine for the Omicron variant available by March of this year.

      It probably means the other Covid vaccine producers will have one for Omicron available around the same time.

      • Bill 12.1.1
        12 January 2022 at 6:19 pm

        Surely, the hope is that by March, the fast moving Omicron has swept through and left immunity in its wake. I believe the claim is that they will have developed an Omicron specific vaccine by March, not that it'll be available by March.

        Anyway. Why is NZ about to embark on this programme that will inject, basically, a defunct medicine into children over 5 years old?

        Putting all other considerations aside for the moment, wouldn't a more sensible route on any "one size fits all vaccine" strategy, be to hold off injecting children who face almost no risk from Covid until a vaccine geared to offer protection to Omicron was actually available?

        If not, why not?

  13. weston 13
    12 January 2022 at 9:44 pm

    Song for dennis since he gave us an interesting conversation the other night

    • Dennis Frank 13.2
      12 January 2022 at 10:19 pm

      smiley thanks, I remember when that album arrived in '72, folks around me playing it

      paradoxical song eh? does seem to evoke depths of human nature & mass psychology

      • weston 13.2.1
        12 January 2022 at 11:05 pm

        Yeah gets to me ,mans arrogance always to the fore ,you could feel the affrontery when you brought up that genesis stuff the other night ,you could have mentioned the condemning of women to an eternity of pain in childbirth also another very strange construct .

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