No country is immune from this kind of politics. After the 2020 election in New Zealand, for instance, when Labour won an absolute majority, the government engaged in unilateral decision-making that accentuated existing social cleavages – central vs local government, rural vs urban communities and Māori vs other New Zealanders, for instance.
In their turn, other political agents played upon these divisions. One can see this in the virulent social media and other attacks upon a once popular Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, fuelled by male-female and urban-rural polarities (in elements of the Groundswell campaign, for instance), or ‘Iwi vs Kiwi’ polarities in relation to Te Tiriti.
Cui bono?
In a process described by scholars as pernicious polarisation, self-interested elites generate Us and Them perceptions by deliberately activating, exploiting or distorting latent social cleavages.
And who dosnt?
In our small, intimate society, we would be wise to hold fast to mutual goodwill and a sense of decency, recognise genuine grievances and do our utmost to address them, and look for the best in each other.
As I learned in 1993, when countries fly apart, there are no safe places to hide.
Dame Anne Salmond imparts some well founded fears.
A valid concern for sure, but I suspect alarmism works better when made more specific: generalities wash over readers, giving them no more than a vague sense of something wrong somewhere.
Ordinary citizens also need to be astute, and recognise when they are being played by self-interested political agents, whether domestic or international.
Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple. It's innate human nature creating masses & driving democracy. Dame Anne fingers the causal agency: self-interested elites. Yet social norms produce these groups. They are a functional part of the body politic, since forever. A social reformer would have to specify a technical improvement to the design of democracy to eliminate the problem. Liberals merely complain & expect someone else to do something about it. Not fair to put her in that category though:
deliberate strengthening of the middle ground through bi-partisan policymaking, wide civic engagement and well-moderated, inclusive conversations about divisive matters, in citizens’ assemblies, for example.
There's no shortage of divisive issues in Aotearoa: euthanasia, cannabis, Covid-19 mandates and, most recently, issues raised over the Treaty of Waitangi are among the latest hot-button topics. But New Zealand has been slow to join the citizens' assembly party – the first few have only been carried out at a local council level this year.
Earlier this year, a group of eminent scientists at Auckland University warned Aotearoa's social cohesion is "straining at the seams". The looming general election would only highlight the country's "political fault lines", the researchers at the Koi Tū Centre for Informed Futures wrote in a paper, as we experienced increased polarisation fuelled by distrust in institutions, government and increased mis and disinformation.
Could be we're in a weather lull before another winter of discontent. Would make sense for some enterprising politician to demonstrate leadership, recruit a few relevant professors to co-design a collaborative public assembly. Would also need professional organisers to incorporate suitable guidelines & conditions to manage group process productively – sideline fringe nutters & screwballs who disrespect rules. https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
Pragmatic folk will just wait to see what kind of shit emanates from the new govt & how much of each kind. However I share your cynicism re centrist do-gooders.
I don't see her alarmism as unworthy – I prefer better direction. Perpetuating malaise is poor public service so we need a proactive stance. Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd. Just needs to be catalysed…
Identity politics seeks to divide us based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc.
One issue I would disagree with AS about is the coalition and women. Peters made part of his election campaign protecting women's spaces , eg public bathrooms and change rooms, while providing alternatives for transgender people. He also got across the line the protection of the women's sports category.
Unfortunately Anker, rational thought is the first thing to disappear when the pressure goes on,,,and there is no doubt the pressure is on…as AS noted with her experience in Bosnia.
How the world works is complicated enough without adding the stressor of increasingly restricted resources….it makes for bad decision making and easy (and erroneous) targets….weve had both of late.
An inspection has found the worm farm operation to be non-compliant with resource consent conditions. “The whole town’s had a gutsful,” Burrell said. “I was talking to a young woman who was pregnant down at the supermarket, and she was dry-retching."
When worthy Green enterprises make locals want to throw up, we got a problem needing a solution.
He had been told the worm farm did not require public notification or consultation. “They don’t need to consult the public. That’s where it fails right there. We don’t even get to put in a submission in regards to having a s*** farm anywhere near our town. We don’t even have a say in it. It’s just a real slap in the face,” Burrell said.
Blame the Labour/Green govt for slack law-making? The report gives us no apparent basis for doing so – seems like Sir Geoffrey's old RMA did it, but don't blame him. That prescription designed in compliance methodology…
The regional council’s acting compliance manager, Trudy Richards, said a compliance officer visited the site on Tuesday and found it to be non-compliant with its resource consent for discharges to air. “The officer found uncovered windrows that were likely generating odours and confirmed non-compliance,” Richards said. “We are working with site staff to improve their management practices and odour mitigation in accordance with the resource consent, and further compliance action is being considered.”
No Enforcement Commissar?? The problem's been happening long enough:
Burrell said the smell had been noticeable in town for years. "This has been going on too long. It’s more prevalent when you’re closer to it, obviously, …whenever the wind comes through town it’s pretty fierce… Enough already. How much more do they want us to tolerate?”
The enforcement is through the Environment Court. However, as it is expensive to take such cases, Councils will only use the Ratepayers $$$$$ to do it as a last resort.
Quite clever neolib design, eh? Polarise locals against local authorities. Escalate hostility on purpose so as to breed subversive ethos amongst sheeple. I could almost applaud the sleight of hand, if yawning weren't a better option…
"Lira’s father, Gonzalo Lira Sr., provided a statement on his son’s death to The Grayzone, saying, “I cannot accept the way my son has died. He was tortured, extorted, and incommunicado for 8 months and 11 days, and the US Embassy did nothing to help my son"
In fact, Adrian, "the West" (i.e. Washington and London) are not defending Ukraine at all, they're supplying them with arms and insisting they keep sacrificing young men in this doomed proxy war. Zelensky was about to sue for peace in March 2022; that democratic champion Boris Johnson was despatched to Kiev to browbeat him out of such foolish behaviour.
The rest is blood-stained, and U.S./U.K.-funded, history.
The Ukrainian side says that the discovery of mass russian war crimes against civilians in occupied territories made all negotiations null and void.
According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in particular the Bucha massacre.
The Ukrainians know that abandoning your citizens to russian torturers and murderers is immoral, and such peace deals only give russia time to prepare for their next invasion.
Trump card to be played: "This All-American Hero died because Biden refused to help him. I would have sent a squad in to rescue, told the clown it was a goer & dared him to get in the way. Rambo 1.01!
But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway?? Being pro-Russian makes him seem a fool in the wrong place, but maybe there's more to it.
"But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway??"…oh I don't know…being a war reporter in a supposed western backed democracy…..but then as we know, the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
Ukraine has free and open elections, with vigorous opposition and a free press. Zelenskyy and other government officials are widely criticised and discussed in the Ukrainian media. Ukraine has changed government and president at almost every election since they left the USSR.
Russia on the other hand imprisons, outlaws or murders all political opponents, imprisons people for 7 years for writing "no war" on supermarket labels, and has the one tsar returning again and again after every presidential election….There is no free media whatsoever tolerated within russia.
He’s also gained a slew of new followers—his Telegram has about 45,000 followers, up from 20,000 on March 1, and seems to be gaining hundreds more every day. Many people seem to view him as a valuable source, and have taken to signal-boosting his content.
But his “fair-and-balanced” accounts often involve wild claims
Having myself attempted fair & balanced stances accompanied by wild claims I'm tempted to sympathise. No reason to off him but looks like locals weren't inclined to tolerate his input.
Rather a gross generalisation. Might have to pursue the search diligently awhile, but I'm confident one could eventually identify a few exceptions to that rule!
Like who, Dennis? Name one "journalist" at the BBC or the New York Times or CNN or Radio New Zealand that is an exception to that rule.
I can name one: Phil Pennington at RNZ. The rest are mere stenographers at best, and (in the case of the failing New York Times and CNN) shills for genocide.
Hmm. I suspect you have in mind those who cover international stories while my comment was general. Re RNZ, there's insufficient persona attached to the names to impact upon me, so I can only cite the general impression I get – that they try diligently to cover the public interest aspects to any story & mostly do a reasonable job.
Ever since its website put a tabloid front up I haven't taken the BBC seriously enough to focus on any of their crew & likewise the US news media although I did like Matt Taibbi's style a few years back (vampire squid on Wall St). A few who started in the TVNZ newsroom when I was there are exceptions – Simon Mercep, for instance, always had the right attitude & instincts. At TV3 Gower did ok & some others too…
Thanks, I'm okay with getting my resilience tested. Have been feeling my age noticeably more in recent years. Your question was worthwhile. I'm always interested in the interplay between a journo's professionalism & conscience. When a formula political story is the day's task, hewing to conventional diagnosis is the norm which tests the character of the pro: to clone or not to clone, that is the question…
Firstly, in Ukraine, even under martial law, freedom of speech is respected, and there is no and cannot be any criminal liability for criticizing the president. Therefore, the accusation that Lira or someone else was “jailed for criticizing Zelensky” is an outright manipulation.
Secondly, Gonzalo Lira is accused not of “criticizing Zelensky,” but of justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine (Article 436-2 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine). The investigation found that Lira:
● publicly justified the Russian invasion by claiming that a 'neo-Nazi regime' had allegedly been set up in Ukraine;
● denied the facts of Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian cities, massacres of civilian Ukrainians by Russian invaders in Bucha and other cities;
● in spring 2022, Lira personally filmed the Ukrainian military, tried to expose their faces, and insulted the soldiers. He published the video on YouTube, Telegram, and the-then Twitter.
Thirdly, Gonzalo Lira is currently in custody only because he violated the terms of his bail and tried to escape Ukrainian justice. The blogger was supposed to remain under house arrest in Kharkiv, but he was detained in another part of Ukraine: in Zakarpattia region, where Lira attempted to cross out into Hungary.
It's in the sidebar but worth emphasising due to subject matter – plus his usual humour. I used to know 'the scarecrow' well. I doubt she will mind coming from Nick Korero. Its not Jacinda btw.
I agree with his analysis of the Herald newspaper. They are sinking into the gutter.
Chris Trotter wades into the culture wars today, and argues that Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should too, highlighting the latest transgender free speech battle in his column today: “An elderly woman, wearing a T-shirt testifying to the reality of biological sex differences – ‘Men aren’t women, even if you squint’ – incurred the wrath of a transgender member of the Ōtaki New World staff, who allegedly prevailed upon the supermarket manager to eject the elderly shopper and have her trespassed from the only supermarket in the small Kāpiti Coast town” – see: When something’s not quite right (paywalled)
Trotter argues that it’s the sort of incident that the populist PM Rob Muldoon would have jumped into, and that by contrast, although Luxon was elected on a populist wave he is yet to act in a populist manner on such issues.
This is how Trotter believes Luxon should have responded to the Ōtaki New World culture war issue: “While reaffirming that all citizens, regardless of their station in life, are entitled to be treated with courtesy and respect, Luxon should also reaffirm emphatically the individual’s right to give voice to their opinions – or have them printed on a T-shirt – even if, by doing so, those opinions strike other citizens as wrong and/or offensive.
He should take the opportunity to remind us all that there is no legal right to shut down speech that does not contravene the law. There is no right NOT to be offended.”
Yet the employer, discriminating against the elderly consumer, tacitly concedes that right to the offensive employee. Perhaps trans nazi would be ott?
As for Luxon failing the Trotter populism test, I imagine his reaction: "Culture war in Otaki, eh? Bit of a laugh, what? Not me mate, I'm in holiday mode. No old boomer needs me mouthing off on their behalf. Call in Age Concern or something."
Jeez, talk about in-depth!! Great to see such passionate advocacy but too much for me at the moment (busy) so I just did a scan. I got a sense of activist solidarity which was heartening…
it's badly done activism. If they wanted to do this well, take someone to film it or at least take notes in real time and observe what is happening.
Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour, and it's one of the main reasons we moderate.
To me it looks like Landy was flaming. She was acting in specific ways designed to provoke a reaction. She got one and didn't like it and is now trying to make political capital out of it.
So sure, freedom of expression. But it's possible and likely she crossed over a line into harassment, in which case the owner was within their rights to ban her. That she gave him the excuse to do so is on her. If she had been banned instead for simply wearing a GC t-shirt, now that would have been useful activism.
But we don't really know what happened so unless this goes to court and/or there is CCTV footage released, there's not really any good way to judge.
What I can comment on is that No Debate by liberals and the left mean that GC action in NZ is currently largely done by people that have no commitment to the left or progressive politics. Those people aren't going to to away, but they don't appear to give a shit about the wellbeing of trans people. Own goal from the liberal left.
I did wonder at how she managed the group resonance interface & I suspect your analysis is accurate. As someone often inclined toward passionate advocacy on the past with only a moderate capacity for tolerating different views, I had quite an experiential learning curve – had no real clue about the power of context in those earlier decades. However we all must learn from our activist experiences so I hope she's doing that…
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
"Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour,"
And yet in the post by Molly that sequence of events is disputed….who is correct?…the jounalist or the (close) friend?…it is apparent that pre existing 'beliefs' determine who is to be believed.
My experience of journalism is it is never entirely accurate, sometimes negligently so.
An 'asserted' pattern of behaviour…unverified and disputed.
Of course the woman may have worn the t Shirt on more than one occasion…to her shame.
Obviously she is not a supporter of fast fashion and believes in wearing clothing to its maximum so as not to needlessly trash the environment nor unnecessarily exploit those who produce the garments.
I wear my favourite one as a form of activism. It's the "woman, adult human female" one and I get plenty of positive feedback, nothing negative so far.
While many would prefer "adult female human", making female the subject of the description works as well. The "adult" and "human" become adjectives. Even more clunkily, female human adult would work.
Despite your personal grammatical and lyrical preference, the three interchanging adjectives and subjects provide an accurate and complete definition for woman however they are applied:
Adult – post-puberty (we'll ignore a previous very strange conversation we've had in the past);
Female – sex that produces the large gamete for reproduction purposes;
the tshirt isn't the problem. Although personally I think it's unnecessarily flaming as opposed to something like Adult Human Female, or your one. There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia.
If good activism involves getting publicity, then wearing the tee shirt has worked.
Yeah, but there are prices to pay as well. Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this.
"There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia."
Going hard? Transphobia?
And can we have your definition of "transphobia"? Because I am loathe to point out your use of it seems to follow the usual practice of throwing it out in order to smear or derail discussion. I would like to have your definition before making up my mind.
"Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this."
A woman has been excluded – without provision of evidence of behaviour – from a local foodstore in a small(ish) community. The discussion is whether the response was appropriate, and whether the wearing of such apparel is permitted.
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
sounds like you are making fair few assumptions yourself (including about my position and views).
I am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. Her own account is that heated words were exchanged. If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It's human nature and politics /shrug.
I also agree it's likely that the staff harassed the customer. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act. I was responding to Dennis' comment, but also watching how it's playing out since, which looks like activism to me. I just think there are problems with doing activism this way. It reminds me of the UK where this kind of activism ends up being what happens because of No Debate. It's effective in its way, but it create problems too.
" …am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times."
… So far, I have read the email from Matthew Mullins as referencing the store's explanation, and the article I have posted which are close to the original sources along with third-party articles in stuff etc.
What other accounts are you referencing?
It is – given that New World is the local store – very likely that she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. That's commonplace for local customers.
What you imply is that she has deliberately antagonised a staff member without provocation. That is not implicitly claimed, or been proven.
'And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act."
Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act.
“If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
A T-shirt “like that”? I’m shaking my head at this comment, weka.
""Buying the t-shirt MAGA hat is often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act."
fify"
Robert, you "fixed it for you" …
Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt.
All good. As long as you gain some satisfaction from this type of comment, why would I want to change you?
But it is unlikely that I will admire you for it, or choose to engage very often.
I'm sure you'll live.
[please stop with the negative personalised comments. They’re unnecessary, and last time there was a major flame war that led to someone being banned. Stick to the politics, thanks – weka]
"Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?"
Well, yes, I did. To borrow (and adjust slightly) weka's words:
“If you want to wear a hat like that and engage with people that the hat is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
If Luxon was to wear a MAGA hat (in public – he can do what he wants at home) then your comment,
"Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act." (emphasis mine) sounds wrong, imo.
My experience is that there are some very active GC women who are committed to the left, in fact many of the gains made by SUFW have been made by these women. The HC judgement Whitmore vs the Palmerston North CC and section 79(2) in the BDMRR Act 2021 spring to mind. These women do not wish transgender people any harm at all, they just don't believe that it is possible to change sex.
There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people.
"There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people."
This is an interesting comment.
Are you suggesting this particular woman is right-wing, and does not care for those with gender identities or gay people?
Or do you have some other NZ GC women in mind? Can you provide their names?
I can't think of a right wing gender critical woman in NZ that is homophobic.
I don't believe KJK has expressed homophobic views – OR – any particularly politically right economic perspectives.
The varying understandings of the words "gender critical", "transphobic" and "right-wing" lead to communication difficulties, so I try to avoid them, and only use them now to query the intent of the user so that conversation can move forward.
"Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
That would be a strange position to take, given the undefined group of women who may be called – or refer to themselves – as gender critical. Given the number, I'm sure there are women in there who are guilty of the most heinous crimes, and those that kick dogs. But I haven't been exposed to the homophobia, and I follow a lot of women's rights accounts.
As for the "dislike of trans women"… IF you are aware of the harms of gender ideology, then the tolerance level for men who call themselves women does often diminish.
Given the move away from the already vague DSM-5 diagnosis (https://twitter.com/KnownHeretic/status/1724448571787972885) , the relevance of sex based differences in motivation, intention and impact becomes more important. The likelihood of paraphilias is much higher for men as a motivator, and some women recognise this more than others – whether gender critical or not.
So, I would agree that some women are dismissive of men who call themselves women. I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface. It is the idea of blackface that is rejected. Also, when individuals are mentioned, it is usually in reference to a perspective they have expressed, or a boundary violation that has been made. Unfortunately, this is part of the wider discussion and has to be addressed, otherwise we participate in a lesser form of No Debate.
"I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface."
That's ridiculous.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
The only universal experience of women – is inhabiting a female body.
"People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on."
All this is selection of regressive stereotypes, and secondary sex characteristics and ASSUMING this is the fundamental aspect of women.
Which is incorrect.
The politicial and social activism is necessary to coerce, shame and bully those who do not indulge in harmful belief systems, where women (and men) are reduced to these secondary characteristics.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on.
In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small. Some of that will be access/cost, but I think it's also to do with the degree of disability that goes with surgery (pain and dysfunction). It's also because many trans identified males do in fact want to play at it.
I suspect you are thinking of transsexual males with serious gender dysphoria. The trans umbrella is much broader than that.
In addition there are non-binary males who want to be included in women's space/culture. In the years I have been involved in this debate I've not once seen an explanation for why NB males should have access to women's space and culture.
I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.
Because what you have just done is such a common dynamic, I'm going to spell it out. Many liberals who have taken a pro-trans politics position against women's rights, have a poor understanding of the politics involved. In this case, the idea that trans women are transexuals with gender dysphoria, rather than understanding that trans now is a very, very broad term, and there is pressure to include all the trans-identified males in the category of women.
When I say that self-ID means any man can say they are a woman at any time and must be accepted as such, this is what I am talking about. It is false to argue that trans-identified males are what you described. What you described is in fact a very small proportion of TIMs.
Further, the reason you don't know this is because of No Debate, and the habitual response of liberal trans allies who simply don't listen to what left wing and other women have been saying for years.
Yes, thanks, weka, I expected a response along the lines of what you've written (well).
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Then I defer to those good arguments. I feel the "blackface" comparison is a poor one.
"and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on."
This is doubtless true; there are always exceptions to a rule 🙂 I was generalising, and knew it.
"In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small." That "number" is still greater, I believe, than the number of whites who undergo surgery to become black.
Your question was: "Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
Not a question about MY personal perspective, and I don't usually atttempt to answer in the place of others, but I thought the question was in good faith and attempted to answer it as such. Without excusing or making apology for perspectives that I don't share.
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Neither do I, (and again I understand you are talking to Robert here) but I want to be clear that you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have. I can understand their perspective without utilising their use. A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of "liking" a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
“I don’t like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.”
Neither do I, but again you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have.
Did I? Is there reply confusion happening here? My comment about womanface was a response to RG.
I can understand their perspective without utilising their use.
Same. As with much of the war, including the actions of Landy and the person who wrote the article, I see the… tenor or character of much of the current debate as being a result of No Debate and left wing gender critical feminists in particular being excluded from public discussion.
It’s also a consequence of women being abused and ostracised and having their backs against the wall regarding women’s rights.
So I’m not usually surprised and my criticisms of Landy have been more about strategy as much as anything. But again, we have the Landy sisters doing what they do because the NZ GCFs got taken out of the game.
A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of “liking” a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
We can discuss whether this is an appropriate response to a trivial action.
See I think she should have been stood down for political ineptitude (on the face of it, I haven’t looked past your link). If she’s going to be so stupid as to not understand how that tweet would play out politically, she’s a liability to UK Labour. Much the same way as Kerekere became a liability to the Greens, because she couldn’t read the room and her comms were causing problems.
There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet.
The standing down because of transphobia causes problems for GC women, who then react against the anti-terfery and ignore the political ineptitude, and that takes us back to the hands we have been dealt and how women will do what they need to irrespective of the damage done along the way.
And of course, it’s entirely possible that the candidate is in fact transphobic. I haven’t had time yet to reply to your comments on that from this morning, but there are a chunk of GC people who simply can’t stand trans women because they can’t stand them. We can see it in the US most obviously with those of the religious right who want transness and gender non-conformity to not exist.
I edited, probably before your reply to make clear my reference was in regards to your question, and that I understood that you were replying to Robert.
"There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet."
Problematic is another word I'm avoiding, so I'm guessing we are going to be in disagreement.
I don't use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is "problematic".
I can both understand the reasoning behind those who choose to use it, and agree that there are examples of men who absolutely do perform their idea of women in a demeaning way.
I can maintain sympathy for people who have difficulty accepting their sex, without colluding with the delusion that it is possible for them to change their sex.
I can also understand the frustration of women who are confronted with men – who are neither distressed or vulnerable – but gleeful about being able to demonstrate their misogyny or paraphilia in society not only without censure, but with full support of those who consider themselves progressive.
So maybe don’t assume my use of ‘problematic’ is the same use you don’t like?
I don’t use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is “problematic”.
Same. Also, in GC circles (as in all of politics) there is actual racism. Using womanface makes things messy and the current debate is not only incapable of dealing with that, it’s also caused a lot of damage and division.
If this is getting too bogged down then I am happy to let it go.
However, I will make note of the fact that while aware of such women, I am also very aware of men who declare themselves to be women, expressing perspectives that both denigrate and demean women and girls. These men not only are not censured for it, they often receive accolades, financial rewards and positions of authority over women or women's advocacy.
There are many such examples. One recent one was the appointment of Munroe Bergdorf as the UN Champion for women. The comments they have made are mild compared to others but show little awareness about women, and disparagement for women who believe sex recognition matters:
What do you propose should be the consequence of stridency?
When you've cleared that up, will you then address the truth of the first statement, and the disconnection from reality that is required to consider it offensive?
These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia.
Let me break it down.
I can see that “hysterical” can be, but “strident”? There’s nothing (that I can see) intrinsic in the word that might trigger anguish.
Must be an insider-thing.
Is “intense” everyday sexism?
The problem isn’t that the words trigger anguish. The problem is that they are used as tools by people, usually men, to put women in their place. That’s the difference between personal insult and politics. In class analysis, biological sex is one of the three axes of oppression (along with race/ethnicity and socio-economic class). Sexism is part of the system of oppression of females on the basis of sex, it’s not something that can be understood primarily through a lens of triggering anguish.
The words aren’t intrinsically sexist, the sexism is in the usage. Calling a poem strident has a different implication than calling a woman strident. Most feminists know the sexist used of the word strident. That you don’t see anything sexist about the word is an indication of your lack of awareness.
Thus, you could have called the post intense and not invoked a sexist trope.
Not really seeing how that’s offensive but accept weka’s advice that it has taken on that quality in some circles (is “circles” okay?)
The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner.
Again, it’s not about offence taken, or even given, although some people use words to be both sexist and offensive.
The word terf was coined a long time ago by a trans woman. It’s an acronym: trans exclusionary radical feminist. That in and of itself is a relatively neutral albeit somewhat inaccurate descriptor. But since the gender/sex wars of the last decade, it’s been taken up and used by some liberals, trans activists, trans allies (TA), and Men’s Rights Activists, as a term of abuse.
This equating of terf with a woman bigot/nazi/evil doer, was an intentional strategy, widely promoted. It’s also been used to direct violent misogyny at women online, and the TAs and gender identity ideologists have largely sanctioned this. That’s often left wing men, sanctioning online violence against women because they object to the women’s feminist politics
A lot of women reclaimed the word terf, in the same way that black men reclaimed nigger, or gay men reclaimed queer.
Again, the meaning and intend of the usage of the word itself depends on who is using it and how.
There is no consensus on words on TS that I’m aware of. I moderate the word terf as a term of abuse when I see it, but there is no ban on the word itself, which is why today’s use on TS is fine.
You can probably see the same thing with the word nigger. A black man using the term in the rap song is quite different from a KKK member using it a term of abuse towards black people.
"These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia."
If your conventional farmer-who-lacked-knowledge-about-soil microbia was discussing trees, I'd regard it as an opportunity to increase her knowledge, for the betterment of all, rather than lambast her for her ignorance. Not saying that's what's happening here, but there's a hint of it in the air…
ok. I’ve seen farmers react to reasonable explanations as if they were being lambasted. Criticism can be hard to take for sure. This is a political blog with an ethos of robust debate. I can change how I communicate more than I already am, but you’d have to give me some clues. I’ve been feeling I have to really spell it out because I’ve observed a fair amount of missing the point from you on this topic. Too blunt?
"Most feminists know the sexist used (sic) of the word strident. "
Do they?
There's certainly no clue in the word itself, as there is with "hysterical".
I guess it's the responsibility of all people who are not feminists, to research words to determine if they are sexist.
"The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner."
Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, "strident", how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner? Or could it be that it was just taken that way?
Molly linked to the piece about Landy and NW, the context of which is women’s rights
You said the person who wrote the piece was “Quite strident in her beliefs”
Molly responded with her thoughts about the use of the word stridency
You said that the letter was “strident as”
I asked you what was wrong with being strident
Instead of answering directly whether there was anything wrong with being strident, you replied with an indirect question “Who said being strident is wrong?”
I then said “perhaps you are unaware that strident is a negative term used about women, especially in politics, to undermine them and their words/actions/mana”. I said this because my guess was that you were unaware of that. And that if you became aware, then you might rethink what you were arguing in a conversation about women’s rights.
You then engaged in a somewhat drawn out conversation about the semantics of the word
I explained at length what the issues are with the word strident, terf, and other words, as well as understanding sexism via a class analysis rather than personal insult.
You implied that there was a hint of me lambasting you for you not being unaware (but you didn’t point to anything specific)
I said ok, what would be better, and also, it’s a robust debate political blog.
You’ve now asked “Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, “strident”, how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner?”, despite my having said early on that I suspect you were unaware of the sexist use of term
You also said “Or could it be that it was just taken that way?” despite my having explained at length that sexism is what the person using the word does, it’s not what the woman on the receiving end does.
FWIW, no, I don’t think you used the term in an intentionally sexist way. If you look back you can clearly see that I have not at any time said you were being sexist. What I did was point out that the term has a sexist usage, because I thought you were unaware of that and you might want to be aware of that in a conversation about women’s rights.
If I think someone on TS is being overtly, intentionally sexist, I usually say so up front.
What would be useful right now is if you would clarify if you accept that the term has a sexist history (despite you not knowing that earlier and not having used it that way).
tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes. I didn’t see you acknowledge that the term has a sexist history. Your questioning rhetoric often comes across as questioning the validity of what people are saying. It was strange to me that we spent so much time talking about concepts of political language that I think are common place on TS.
As for batting ideas back and forth, maybe for you this is a lighter issue. For some of us it is incredibly serious. For me personally, GC politics is the most important issue we face after climate/ecology (for complex reasons to do with the suppression of women’s knowledge and way of thinking about climate/ecology, and I don’t think it’s coincidence there are very strong pushes to remove women-centre politics at this time). Although the Treaty issues arising are up there too. Same deal.
Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think.
You are welcome to talk about feminist issues, and GC pol doesn't just affect women. But you can't expect other people to talk about it with the fun vibe you seem to want, if they don't want to.
I had some great fun with GC feminists last year, and there were times when it was incredibly serious. I really don't see the problem other than maybe you misreading the room or wanting other people to act in a certain way.
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
No, it's not a fact. "even if you squint" indicates that it's a visual perception issue. That means seeing a man or a woman is the issue. If you squint and see a woman, you see a woman, whether the subject of your attention is or isn't (it might even be a mannequin).
Might "indicate" a perception issue – but still a statement of fact.
However, people have a problem with the concise and accurate three word descriptor – adult human female – so I don't think clarity improves that cognitive issue.
Maybe an example of an individual/group claiming and using a word to 'defang' it?
At the PYO blueberry farm where I pick, ~10 years ago the unpretentious roadside sign "Blueberries, 9 – 2 pm" had been altered to read "Blueberries are Gay".
That’s funny (to me) to this day – perhaps you had to be there.
The footpaths laid down by Labour in the direction of co-governance, the curbing of free speech, and the erasure of biological sex differences were not, however, trod by the masses. Indeed, they appeared to most New Zealanders to be leading them into wild and unknown territory. Not only did they not want to go there, but they became increasingly suspicious of the motives of those who kept insisting that they should.
What the Left still doesn’t seem to have got its head around is that the defeated Labour Party is not the innocent victim of reactionaries…
Labour lost because, after 2020, Jacinda’s political skills deserted her and, following her departure in January 2023, Chris Hipkins and his colleagues were exposed as a pretty hopeless bunch of politicians. What those Labour MPs celebrated as “progressive”, a great many voters considered either loopy, or dangerous, or a volatile mixture of the two.
Hang on, he oughta already know that Labour always blames any semi-plausible scapegoat. Not in their genes to acknowledge their mistakes – still silent, laying low.
Haven't been keeping up with the news (really not very interested in other people's weddings) – but if there are protesters there – they should be ashamed of themselves.
Ummm – I for one am very grateful to our former PM as I had covid nearly 2 years ago which affected my heart, which I gather would have been far worse if I hadn't been vacinated (I continue to keep up to date with my boosters) and take extra care as Covid is back with us with avengeance and quite rampant in our area. Just glad I'm still alive and sort of kicking.
Ardern did a great deed in declaring a lock down or two and protecting the most vulnerable amongst us the best she could have done and that was all anybody could have asked for in that time.
I am grateful that she was there when the first outbreaks were around.
Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back to Pats original piece on here about Dame Anne Salmond column. We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?
IMO ideology took over the Govt agenda. I found it alarming the ideas in the He Puapua report, followed up by things like the Rotorua amendment Bill, the gender self ID select committee, where women were raising very valid concerns and were treated with contempt by mostly Labour women MPs. As there was imo no mandate for these policies (gender self Id, trans in women's sports in particular have very poor support in political polls. What are you supposed to do when the govt you have supported are pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on? This is a geniune question. I think the coalition might be blamed for pushing the division, but actually they were responding to policy being brought in by Labour. Someone said it takes two to tango. But if someone starts something, sometimes the best option is to push back
It's funny, when reading Dame Anne Salmond's article and she spoke of divisions and the need to heal them, I thought of Robert and the attitudes behind cookers, now covidiots.
Just kinda pulling the scab off and having a poke at the wound just for the sake of it.
pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on
Tbh I didn't really notice they were doing so until quite late. I'm so used to their bumbling style I guess, I did point out quite a few times onsite here that it seemed peculiar they were doing what the media called co-governance without explaining themselves to the public, but it never actually occurred to me that it was cynical.
I did read it as timidity, but that's just usual Labour. I think I may have even given them credit for being progressive about it once or twice. But stealth politics does have an anti-democratic whiff about it. There's a reasonable basis for co-governance, if you view the Treaty as a social contract, so I guess I indulged them on that basis.
The opposition to it also seems reasonable if you see the Treaty as merely history though, and I doubt Dame Anne has explicitly supported Labour's strategy.
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It is all very well cutting the backrooms of public agencies but it may compromise the frontlines. One of the frustrations of the Productivity Commission’s 2017 review of universities is that while it observed that their non-academic staff were increasing faster than their academic staff, it did not bother to ...
Buzz from the Beehive Two speeches delivered by Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters at Anzac Day ceremonies in Turkey are the only new posts on the government’s official website since the PM announced his Cabinet shake-up. In one of the speeches, Peters stated the obvious: we live in a troubled ...
1. Which of these would you not expect to read in The Waikato Invader?a. Luxon is here to do business, don’t you worry about thatb. Mr KPI expects results, and you better believe itc. This decisive man of action is getting me all hot and excitedd. Melissa Lee is how ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Asia Pacific Report A West Papuan resistance leader has condemned the United Nations role in allowing Indonesia to “integrate” the Melanesian Pacific region in what is claimed to be an “egregious act of inhumanity” on 1 May 1963. In an open letter to UN Secretary-General António Guterres, Organisasi Papua Merdeka-OPM ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra A key part of the Albanese government’s political strategy is to fill the news cycle with its presence and messaging. Ministers are deployed to the maximum, even when they’ve little to say. This week ...
Recent extreme weather events showed the importance of a well-functioning insurance system, says Commerce and Consumer Affairs minister Andrew Bayly. ...
By Jo Moir, RNZ News political editor, and Craig McCulloch, deputy political editor New Zealand’s Labour Party is demanding Winston Peters be stood down as Foreign Minister for opening up the government to legal action over his “totally unacceptable” attack on a prominent AUKUS critic. In an interview on RNZ’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Christian Brakenridge, Postdoctoral research fellow at Swinburne University, Centre for Urban Transitions, Baker Heart and Diabetes Institute The Conversation, Gorodenkoff/Shutterstock People have a pretty intuitive sense of what is healthy – standing is better than sitting, exercise is great for overall ...
The Wellington-based Reserve Force soldier is now almost three years into his New Zealand Army career with 5th/7th Battalion, Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment. ...
"The Government needs to release the review immediately as this reckless approach to change risks disjointed decision making and creates more distress and uncertainty for staff," Fitzsimons said. ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor Jeremiah Manele has been elected Prime Minister of Solomon Islands, polling 31 votes to 18 over rival candidate and former opposition leader Mathew Wale with one abstention. The final result of the election by secret ballot was announced by the Governor-General, Sir David Vunagi, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Priestley Habru, PhD candidate, public diplomacy, University of Adelaide Former foreign minister Jeremiah Manele has been elected the next prime minister of Solomon Islands, defeating the opposition leader, Matthew Wale, in a vote in parliament. The result is a mixed bag for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Shaun Eaves, Senior Lecturer in Physical Geography, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington Jamey Stutz, CC BY-SA How often do mountains collapse, volcanoes erupt or ice sheets melt? For Earth scientists, these are important questions as we try ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Flood, Professor of Sociology, Queensland University of Technology Shutterstock Most young adult men in Australia reject traditional ideas of masculinity that endorse aggression, stoicism and homophobia. Nonetheless, the ongoing influence of those ideas continues to harm men and the people ...
The NZQA proposal released to staff today would involve a net loss of 35 roles. There are 66 roles being disestablished with 13 of those currently vacant, and 31 new roles proposed, said Fleur Fitzsimons Public Service Association Te Pūkenga Here Tikanga ...
Alex Casey talks to Loren Taylor, the writer, director and star of new film The Moon is Upside Down, about assembling her dream ensemble cast, toilet paper pads and turning literal dreams into reality. There’s a moment in The Moon is Upside Down where frazzled anaesthetist Briar (Loren Taylor) gets ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Cassy Dittman, Senior Lecturer/Head of Course (Undergraduate Psychology), Research Fellow, Manna Institute, CQUniversity Australia With winter sports swinging into action, adults around the country have volunteered or been volunteered by others (humorously known as being “volun-told”) to coach junior sports teams. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Karleen Gribble, Adjunct Associate Professor, School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University richardernestyap/Shutterstock Parents are often advised to burp their babies after feeding them. Some people think burping after feeding is important to reduce or prevent discomfort crying, or to ...
Workers at a major ASB contact centre in Auckland have voted to take strike action and withdraw their labour following disappointing pay negotiations with the employer and an "offer" to workers that would leave them worse off than the previous year. ...
As the government tries to get the country back on track with a school phone ban, Tara Ward has an idea for where they should turn their attention to next.New Zealand students returned to school on Monday morning, but their cellphones did not. The government’s new phone ban began ...
The Labour Party is demanding Peters be stood down, saying "he's embarrassed the country" with a "totally unacceptable" attack on a prominent AUKUS critic. ...
The Inter-Parliamentary Alliance, whose members were victims of a China-backed cyber attack, is discussing forming a standing committee to deal with foreign influence. ...
The PSA is concerned that the voluntary redundancies being offered to staff by Stats NZ will impact on the agency’s ability to deliver on its core functions. ...
Results ranged from surprisingly yum to soul-destroying. I love cooking. The kitchen is a hearth of culinary creation, of sensory delights, of gastronomic poetry. I also can’t afford anything nice. Why does a pack of instant noodles and some milk cost ten bucks? I love you, Aotearoa, but I miss ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor Police in Solomon Islands are on high alert ahead of the election of the prime minister today. The two candidates for the top job are former foreign affairs minister Jeremiah Manele at the head of the Coalition for National Unity and Transformation, which is ...
He’s fine but it feels like I’m losing a friend and it’s making me bitter. How do I say ‘enough is enough’? Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzHey Hera,I’ve recently moved in with a girlfriend, her partner Steve, and his friend. We all live in a lovely little house. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nick Chartres, Senior Research Fellow, Faculty of Medicine & Health, University of Sydney shutterstockAhmet Misirligul/Shutterstock You go to the gym, eat healthy and walk as much as possible. You wash your hands and get vaccinated. You control your health. This is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jacqueline Hendriks, Research Fellow and Lecturer, Curtin University Children and young people may be seeing news headlines about men murdering women or footage of people rallying to call for action. Perhaps they or their friends have even gone to the protests. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jessica Balanzategui, Senior Lecturer in Media, RMIT University ABC “Bluey mania” shows no sign of abating. Bluey’s season finale, The Sign, was the most viewed ABC program of all time on iView. A “hidden” follow-up episode, aptly named The Surprise, created ...
Labour market figures came in softer than the Reserve Bank had forecast, but they won’t be enough to move the needle on interest rates, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Unemployment ...
The campaign will engage the community and encourage submissions on the bill to the New Zealand government by the closing submission deadline of Friday 31st of May 2024 4pm. ...
The paper raises concerns about declining trust in New Zealand's political institutions and democratic processes, and the role that the overuse of Parliamentary urgency plays in that. ...
The Urban Habitat Collective was an attempt to built an innovative new form of apartment building in Wellington. Here’s why it failed, and why the idea could still work, writes co-founder Bronwen Newton. When we started the Urban Habitat Collective in November 2018, we thought we were starting a revolution, ...
Two decades ago this week, a controversial law that attempted to define ownership of the foreshore and seabed prompted a formidable display of outrage and kōtahitanga as 15,000 marched to parliament. Jamie Tahana looks back.‘Hīkoi, hīkoi,” they chanted by the thousands as the biggest Māori march in a generation ...
A Labour Party Member’s Bill aims to plug a culpability gap between manslaughter and health and safety breaches The post New push for corporate killing laws appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Terence O’Brien had the rare and no doubt undesired distinction of rising to one of the most exalted positions in New Zealand diplomacy, then being unceremoniously recalled to Wellington without explanation just when his career was at its zenith. What is perhaps more surprising is that he appears to have ...
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Why has New Zealand slipped from third to 12th on Quality of Death Indexes over the past decade or so? Hospice New Zealand Chief Executive Wayne Naylor has a list of reasons. “We don’t have a current national strategy – the Government hasn’t renewed our 2001 strategy, so we don’t ...
While women’s sport is exploding in Aotearoa and around the world, you still don’t hear a lot of talk about athletes and their periods, RED-S, breastfeeding and visible panty-lines. SASS (Suze and Sez Sports)Talk isn’t afraid to have that kōrero.LockerRoom founder Suzanne McFadden and Olympian broadcaster Sarah ...
On an unusually hot night in January 2019, a little boy’s lifeless body was found face up in a small town’s sewage oxidation pond. To the police, it was an open and shut case: three-year-old Lachlan Jones had run away from his home in the Southland town of Gore, climbed ...
Rongotai MP Julie Anne Genter has apologised in Parliament after National accused her of intimidating and attacking one of its ministers in the House. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The Prime Minister and state and territory leaders met on Wednesday as the national cabinet to discuss a crisis gripping Australia – the horrific number of women murdered this year. The killings have shocked ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Radhika Raghav, Teaching Fellow, School of Humanities and Social Sciences, University of Otago Netflix Indian director Sanjay Leela Bhansali is known for his big-budget Bollywood production, featuring grand sets, star casts, meticulously choreographed dance sequences and lavish costumes, jewellery and furnishings. ...
Sir Robert devoted his life to disability rights after living in institutions in his younger years, says Kaihautū Tika Hauātanga | Disability Rights Commissioner Prudence Walker. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anastasia Powell, Professor, Family and Sexual Violence, RMIT University Violence against women is not a women’s problem to solve, it is a whole of society problem to solve; and men in particular have to take responsibility. Those were the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jessica Allen, Senior Lecturer in Chemical and Renewable Energy Engineering, University of Newcastle Snapshot freddy/ShutterstockPlans to revive an old coal-fired power station using bioenergy are being considered in the Hunter region of New South Wales. Similar plans for the station ...
Responding to the long-awaited release of judges’ special allowances, including free air travel and hotels for spouses, generous sabbaticals, and access to limousines, Taxpayers’ Union spokesman Alex Murphy said: “In what world does your employer ...
It takes two to tango
Cui bono?
And who dosnt?
Dame Anne Salmond imparts some well founded fears.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
A valid concern for sure, but I suspect alarmism works better when made more specific: generalities wash over readers, giving them no more than a vague sense of something wrong somewhere.
Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple. It's innate human nature creating masses & driving democracy. Dame Anne fingers the causal agency: self-interested elites. Yet social norms produce these groups. They are a functional part of the body politic, since forever. A social reformer would have to specify a technical improvement to the design of democracy to eliminate the problem. Liberals merely complain & expect someone else to do something about it. Not fair to put her in that category though:
More centrism is indeed a viable antidote to polarising forces. Re engagement inclusion, it just requires us to be radical enough to actually make it happen rather than just want it to (the classic liberal limp wrist). Re citizen's assemblies, you bet. A centrist organiser ought to make these happen asap: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/505616/how-citizens-assemblies-could-resolve-new-zealand-s-toughest-debates
Could be we're in a weather lull before another winter of discontent. Would make sense for some enterprising politician to demonstrate leadership, recruit a few relevant professors to co-design a collaborative public assembly. Would also need professional organisers to incorporate suitable guidelines & conditions to manage group process productively – sideline fringe nutters & screwballs who disrespect rules. https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
You are of the opinion that Dame Anne is an alarmist?
That the problem can only be solved by politicians , professional organisers and professors? (the very groups that have led us here)
That the current situation is a lull?
Thats one take I guess.
Pragmatic folk will just wait to see what kind of shit emanates from the new govt & how much of each kind. However I share your cynicism re centrist do-gooders.
I don't see her alarmism as unworthy – I prefer better direction. Perpetuating malaise is poor public service so we need a proactive stance. Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd. Just needs to be catalysed…
"Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd." 13 January 2024 at 11:06 am
and yet
"Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple." 13 January 2024 at 8:43 am
Maybe its 2 takes
Yeah, I agree that it's a self-contradictory look. Complementarity can be like that sometimes.
It can?…not in the world I inhabit.
mod note. I will reinstate your comment when you supply a link.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
Identity politics seeks to divide us based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc.
One issue I would disagree with AS about is the coalition and women. Peters made part of his election campaign protecting women's spaces , eg public bathrooms and change rooms, while providing alternatives for transgender people. He also got across the line the protection of the women's sports category.
Opps disregard this. I didn't think it had posted. I re-read AS and she mentions the women's ministry, not women.
Unfortunately Anker, rational thought is the first thing to disappear when the pressure goes on,,,and there is no doubt the pressure is on…as AS noted with her experience in Bosnia.
How the world works is complicated enough without adding the stressor of increasingly restricted resources….it makes for bad decision making and easy (and erroneous) targets….weve had both of late.
Green capitalism is making a big stink: https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/11/the-town-thats-had-a-gutsful-of-nzs-biggest-worm-farm/
When worthy Green enterprises make locals want to throw up, we got a problem needing a solution.
Blame the Labour/Green govt for slack law-making? The report gives us no apparent basis for doing so – seems like Sir Geoffrey's old RMA did it, but don't blame him. That prescription designed in compliance methodology…
No Enforcement Commissar?? The problem's been happening long enough:
The enforcement is through the Environment Court. However, as it is expensive to take such cases, Councils will only use the Ratepayers $$$$$ to do it as a last resort.
Quite clever neolib design, eh? Polarise locals against local authorities. Escalate hostility on purpose so as to breed subversive ethos amongst sheeple. I could almost applaud the sleight of hand, if yawning weren't a better option…
Here is a taste of the "democratic" Ukraine state defended by the West so vigorously….
American Journalist Gonzalo Lira Has Died While Imprisoned In Ukraine
"Lira’s father, Gonzalo Lira Sr., provided a statement on his son’s death to The Grayzone, saying, “I cannot accept the way my son has died. He was tortured, extorted, and incommunicado for 8 months and 11 days, and the US Embassy did nothing to help my son"
…defended by the West….
In fact, Adrian, "the West" (i.e. Washington and London) are not defending Ukraine at all, they're supplying them with arms and insisting they keep sacrificing young men in this doomed proxy war. Zelensky was about to sue for peace in March 2022; that democratic champion Boris Johnson was despatched to Kiev to browbeat him out of such foolish behaviour.
The rest is blood-stained, and U.S./U.K.-funded, history.
Only russian propaganda sources make such claims about a March-April 2022 peace deal.
The Ukrainian side says that the discovery of mass russian war crimes against civilians in occupied territories made all negotiations null and void.
The Ukrainians know that abandoning your citizens to russian torturers and murderers is immoral, and such peace deals only give russia time to prepare for their next invasion.
That's a nice simple explanation for everything: Russian propaganda. That explains everything, of course.
Why did Boris Johnson fly post-haste to Kiev again?
Neftali Beneth ex Israeli prime minister literally started saying that about the peace deal in which he was a mediator…
Trump card to be played: "This All-American Hero died because Biden refused to help him. I would have sent a squad in to rescue, told the clown it was a goer & dared him to get in the way. Rambo 1.01!
But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway?? Being pro-Russian makes him seem a fool in the wrong place, but maybe there's more to it.
"But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway??"…oh I don't know…being a war reporter in a supposed western backed democracy…..but then as we know, the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
Ukraine has free and open elections, with vigorous opposition and a free press. Zelenskyy and other government officials are widely criticised and discussed in the Ukrainian media. Ukraine has changed government and president at almost every election since they left the USSR.
Russia on the other hand imprisons, outlaws or murders all political opponents, imprisons people for 7 years for writing "no war" on supermarket labels, and has the one tsar returning again and again after every presidential election….There is no free media whatsoever tolerated within russia.
Who or what is your imaginary “the West”? Is New Zealand [in] it? Are we, as Kiwis, [in] it? Didn’t we just have a General Election?
Do you intend to continue making these dumbfuckery claims here on this site? BTW, that’s a rhetorical question.
Draw your own conclusions about what coach red pill was doing in Ukraine.
So a stroppy bugger…
Having myself attempted fair & balanced stances accompanied by wild claims I'm tempted to sympathise. No reason to off him but looks like locals weren't inclined to tolerate his input.
Pneumonia, a collapsed lung and edema.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDqMkpHWAAAAFxa?format=jpg&name=large
Good sleuthing, poor fella, looks like his body decided to do time out…
Rather a gross generalisation. Might have to pursue the search diligently awhile, but I'm confident one could eventually identify a few exceptions to that rule!
Like who, Dennis? Name one "journalist" at the BBC or the New York Times or CNN or Radio New Zealand that is an exception to that rule.
I can name one: Phil Pennington at RNZ. The rest are mere stenographers at best, and (in the case of the failing New York Times and CNN) shills for genocide.
Hmm. I suspect you have in mind those who cover international stories while my comment was general. Re RNZ, there's insufficient persona attached to the names to impact upon me, so I can only cite the general impression I get – that they try diligently to cover the public interest aspects to any story & mostly do a reasonable job.
Ever since its website put a tabloid front up I haven't taken the BBC seriously enough to focus on any of their crew & likewise the US news media although I did like Matt Taibbi's style a few years back (vampire squid on Wall St). A few who started in the TVNZ newsroom when I was there are exceptions – Simon Mercep, for instance, always had the right attitude & instincts. At TV3 Gower did ok & some others too…
Fair comment, Dennis, as always!
Thanks, I'm okay with getting my resilience tested. Have been feeling my age noticeably more in recent years. Your question was worthwhile. I'm always interested in the interplay between a journo's professionalism & conscience. When a formula political story is the day's task, hewing to conventional diagnosis is the norm which tests the character of the pro: to clone or not to clone, that is the question…
Some background.
Nick Korero's latest epistle:
https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/congrats-jacinda-and-clarke
It's in the sidebar but worth emphasising due to subject matter – plus his usual humour. I used to know 'the scarecrow' well. I doubt she will mind coming from Nick Korero. Its not Jacinda btw.
I agree with his analysis of the Herald newspaper. They are sinking into the gutter.
I also knew "the scarecrow". Not well, but well enough to stay away from.
Never quite made her out.
Yesterday on the Democracy Project:
Yet the employer, discriminating against the elderly consumer, tacitly concedes that right to the offensive employee. Perhaps trans nazi would be ott?
As for Luxon failing the Trotter populism test, I imagine his reaction: "Culture war in Otaki, eh? Bit of a laugh, what? Not me mate, I'm in holiday mode. No old boomer needs me mouthing off on their behalf. Call in Age Concern or something."
https://democracyproject.substack.com/p/nz-politics-daily-12-january-2024
Plainsight have got an article written by someone close to the customer, which is not paywalled:
https://plainsight.nz/jaccuse-new-world-otaki-vs-phillippa-landy-from-a-friend/
Jeez, talk about in-depth!! Great to see such passionate advocacy but too much for me at the moment (busy) so I just did a scan. I got a sense of activist solidarity which was heartening…
it's badly done activism. If they wanted to do this well, take someone to film it or at least take notes in real time and observe what is happening.
Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour, and it's one of the main reasons we moderate.
To me it looks like Landy was flaming. She was acting in specific ways designed to provoke a reaction. She got one and didn't like it and is now trying to make political capital out of it.
So sure, freedom of expression. But it's possible and likely she crossed over a line into harassment, in which case the owner was within their rights to ban her. That she gave him the excuse to do so is on her. If she had been banned instead for simply wearing a GC t-shirt, now that would have been useful activism.
But we don't really know what happened so unless this goes to court and/or there is CCTV footage released, there's not really any good way to judge.
What I can comment on is that No Debate by liberals and the left mean that GC action in NZ is currently largely done by people that have no commitment to the left or progressive politics. Those people aren't going to to away, but they don't appear to give a shit about the wellbeing of trans people. Own goal from the liberal left.
I did wonder at how she managed the group resonance interface & I suspect your analysis is accurate. As someone often inclined toward passionate advocacy on the past with only a moderate capacity for tolerating different views, I had quite an experiential learning curve – had no real clue about the power of context in those earlier decades. However we all must learn from our activist experiences so I hope she's doing that…
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
Just a good woman, wearing a good t-shirt, for a good cause, eh, Molly.
Do you wear your heart (views) on your sleeve (t shirt) Robert?…and should you do so, would you object to being targeted because so?
I have a "Tree Hugger" t-shirt, Pat; I wear it rarely but when I do, I hope for feedback.
🙂
Let us hope your local supermarket isnt owned by a logger…with attitude.
Few supermarkets are, in my experience.
Safe to wear my "Kermit" t-shirt in there as well, I reckon. Probably get a laugh.
You never know Robert…your Kermit T shirt may have you trespassed.
Though one would hope not, but in the current environment who could say.
WitchB…tchSl.tTerfWoman.
This on a tee shirt (and I own one) is what I call good activism.
Weka called it well:
"Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour,"
And yet in the post by Molly that sequence of events is disputed….who is correct?…the jounalist or the (close) friend?…it is apparent that pre existing 'beliefs' determine who is to be believed.
My experience of journalism is it is never entirely accurate, sometimes negligently so.
I believe it was "pattern of behaviour", not "t-shirt".
An 'asserted' pattern of behaviour…unverified and disputed.
Of course the woman may have worn the t Shirt on more than one occasion…to her shame.
Obviously she is not a supporter of fast fashion and believes in wearing clothing to its maximum so as not to needlessly trash the environment nor unnecessarily exploit those who produce the garments.
I wear my favourite one as a form of activism. It's the "woman, adult human female" one and I get plenty of positive feedback, nothing negative so far.
You mean, "Woman: adult human, female", right?
Is is your t-shirt a grammar-fail?
(My correction may be also: grammar’s a b*tch sometimes 🙂
I was just describing it roughly – it actually says:
woman
women (with weird characters that I can't replicate here)
noun
adult human female
It's been the subject of an ASA ruling in the form of a billboard – https://cdn.asa.co.nz/backend/documents/2021/08/10/21378.pdf
While many would prefer "adult female human", making female the subject of the description works as well. The "adult" and "human" become adjectives. Even more clunkily, female human adult would work.
Despite your personal grammatical and lyrical preference, the three interchanging adjectives and subjects provide an accurate and complete definition for woman however they are applied:
Adult – post-puberty (we'll ignore a previous very strange conversation we've had in the past);
Female – sex that produces the large gamete for reproduction purposes;
Human – member of the Homo sapien species.
Yes, like with Golriz, we need to see the video fortage to know what happened before we can be absolutely certain.
If good activism involves getting publicity, then wearing the tee shirt has worked.
I posted below my favourite tee shirt but for those who missed it…
WitchB..tchSl.tTerfWoman.
I have had great feedback when I wear it. Its targeting the mysogyny of the term Terf
the tshirt isn't the problem. Although personally I think it's unnecessarily flaming as opposed to something like Adult Human Female, or your one. There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia.
Yeah, but there are prices to pay as well. Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this.
"There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia."
Going hard? Transphobia?
And can we have your definition of "transphobia"? Because I am loathe to point out your use of it seems to follow the usual practice of throwing it out in order to smear or derail discussion. I would like to have your definition before making up my mind.
"Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this."
A woman has been excluded – without provision of evidence of behaviour – from a local foodstore in a small(ish) community. The discussion is whether the response was appropriate, and whether the wearing of such apparel is permitted.
sounds like you are making fair few assumptions yourself (including about my position and views).
I am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. Her own account is that heated words were exchanged. If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It's human nature and politics /shrug.
I also agree it's likely that the staff harassed the customer. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act. I was responding to Dennis' comment, but also watching how it's playing out since, which looks like activism to me. I just think there are problems with doing activism this way. It reminds me of the UK where this kind of activism ends up being what happens because of No Debate. It's effective in its way, but it create problems too.
" …am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times."
… So far, I have read the email from Matthew Mullins as referencing the store's explanation, and the article I have posted which are close to the original sources along with third-party articles in stuff etc.
What other accounts are you referencing?
It is – given that New World is the local store – very likely that she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. That's commonplace for local customers.
What you imply is that she has deliberately antagonised a staff member without provocation. That is not implicitly claimed, or been proven.
'And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act."
Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act.
“If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
A T-shirt “like that”? I’m shaking my head at this comment, weka.
"Buying the
t-shirtMAGA hat is often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act."
fify
Robert, you "fixed it for you" …
Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt.
All good. As long as you gain some satisfaction from this type of comment, why would I want to change you?
But it is unlikely that I will admire you for it, or choose to engage very often.
I'm sure you'll live.
[please stop with the negative personalised comments. They’re unnecessary, and last time there was a major flame war that led to someone being banned. Stick to the politics, thanks – weka]
mod note.
Read your note.
thanks Molly.
"Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt."
You've made a wrong assumption, Molly. I made no implication.
@Robert Guyton
Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?
Molly wrote:
"Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?"
Well, yes, I did. To borrow (and adjust slightly) weka's words:
“If you want to wear a hat like that and engage with people that the hat is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
If Luxon was to wear a MAGA hat (in public – he can do what he wants at home) then your comment,
"Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act." (emphasis mine) sounds wrong, imo.
My experience is that there are some very active GC women who are committed to the left, in fact many of the gains made by SUFW have been made by these women. The HC judgement Whitmore vs the Palmerston North CC and section 79(2) in the BDMRR Act 2021 spring to mind. These women do not wish transgender people any harm at all, they just don't believe that it is possible to change sex.
There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people.
Yep. This is the liberal left's own goal. Had GCFs been allowed our voices, we'd be doing it differently.
"There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people."
This is an interesting comment.
Are you suggesting this particular woman is right-wing, and does not care for those with gender identities or gay people?
Or do you have some other NZ GC women in mind? Can you provide their names?
Kellie Jay Keen is the exemplar of someone who is right wing and who communicates in such a way as to imply contempt for trans women.
I'm not going to name NZ GC women because I think the KJK example suffices to get the point, and because I'm not interested in making this personal.
Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?
I can't think of a right wing gender critical woman in NZ that is homophobic.
I don't believe KJK has expressed homophobic views – OR – any particularly politically right economic perspectives.
The varying understandings of the words "gender critical", "transphobic" and "right-wing" lead to communication difficulties, so I try to avoid them, and only use them now to query the intent of the user so that conversation can move forward.
"Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
That would be a strange position to take, given the undefined group of women who may be called – or refer to themselves – as gender critical. Given the number, I'm sure there are women in there who are guilty of the most heinous crimes, and those that kick dogs. But I haven't been exposed to the homophobia, and I follow a lot of women's rights accounts.
As for the "dislike of trans women"… IF you are aware of the harms of gender ideology, then the tolerance level for men who call themselves women does often diminish.
Given the move away from the already vague DSM-5 diagnosis (https://twitter.com/KnownHeretic/status/1724448571787972885) , the relevance of sex based differences in motivation, intention and impact becomes more important. The likelihood of paraphilias is much higher for men as a motivator, and some women recognise this more than others – whether gender critical or not.
So, I would agree that some women are dismissive of men who call themselves women. I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface. It is the idea of blackface that is rejected. Also, when individuals are mentioned, it is usually in reference to a perspective they have expressed, or a boundary violation that has been made. Unfortunately, this is part of the wider discussion and has to be addressed, otherwise we participate in a lesser form of No Debate.
"I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface."
That's ridiculous.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
The only universal experience of women – is inhabiting a female body.
"People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on."
All this is selection of regressive stereotypes, and secondary sex characteristics and ASSUMING this is the fundamental aspect of women.
Which is incorrect.
The politicial and social activism is necessary to coerce, shame and bully those who do not indulge in harmful belief systems, where women (and men) are reduced to these secondary characteristics.
and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on.
In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small. Some of that will be access/cost, but I think it's also to do with the degree of disability that goes with surgery (pain and dysfunction). It's also because many trans identified males do in fact want to play at it.
I suspect you are thinking of transsexual males with serious gender dysphoria. The trans umbrella is much broader than that.
In addition there are non-binary males who want to be included in women's space/culture. In the years I have been involved in this debate I've not once seen an explanation for why NB males should have access to women's space and culture.
I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.
Because what you have just done is such a common dynamic, I'm going to spell it out. Many liberals who have taken a pro-trans politics position against women's rights, have a poor understanding of the politics involved. In this case, the idea that trans women are transexuals with gender dysphoria, rather than understanding that trans now is a very, very broad term, and there is pressure to include all the trans-identified males in the category of women.
When I say that self-ID means any man can say they are a woman at any time and must be accepted as such, this is what I am talking about. It is false to argue that trans-identified males are what you described. What you described is in fact a very small proportion of TIMs.
Further, the reason you don't know this is because of No Debate, and the habitual response of liberal trans allies who simply don't listen to what left wing and other women have been saying for years.
Yes, thanks, weka, I expected a response along the lines of what you've written (well).
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Then I defer to those good arguments. I feel the "blackface" comparison is a poor one.
"and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on."
This is doubtless true; there are always exceptions to a rule 🙂 I was generalising, and knew it.
"In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small." That "number" is still greater, I believe, than the number of whites who undergo surgery to become black.
@weka
Your question was: "Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
Not a question about MY personal perspective, and I don't usually atttempt to answer in the place of others, but I thought the question was in good faith and attempted to answer it as such. Without excusing or making apology for perspectives that I don't share.
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Neither do I, (and again I understand you are talking to Robert here) but I want to be clear that you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have. I can understand their perspective without utilising their use. A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of "liking" a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
https://x.com/skippy_0h/status/1746133749019050082?s=20https://x.com/skippy_0h/status/1746133749019050082?s=20
We can discuss whether this is an appropriate response to a trivial action.
Did I? Is there reply confusion happening here? My comment about womanface was a response to RG.
Same. As with much of the war, including the actions of Landy and the person who wrote the article, I see the… tenor or character of much of the current debate as being a result of No Debate and left wing gender critical feminists in particular being excluded from public discussion.
It’s also a consequence of women being abused and ostracised and having their backs against the wall regarding women’s rights.
So I’m not usually surprised and my criticisms of Landy have been more about strategy as much as anything. But again, we have the Landy sisters doing what they do because the NZ GCFs got taken out of the game.
See I think she should have been stood down for political ineptitude (on the face of it, I haven’t looked past your link). If she’s going to be so stupid as to not understand how that tweet would play out politically, she’s a liability to UK Labour. Much the same way as Kerekere became a liability to the Greens, because she couldn’t read the room and her comms were causing problems.
There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet.
The standing down because of transphobia causes problems for GC women, who then react against the anti-terfery and ignore the political ineptitude, and that takes us back to the hands we have been dealt and how women will do what they need to irrespective of the damage done along the way.
And of course, it’s entirely possible that the candidate is in fact transphobic. I haven’t had time yet to reply to your comments on that from this morning, but there are a chunk of GC people who simply can’t stand trans women because they can’t stand them. We can see it in the US most obviously with those of the religious right who want transness and gender non-conformity to not exist.
@weka
I edited, probably before your reply to make clear my reference was in regards to your question, and that I understood that you were replying to Robert.
"There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet."
Problematic is another word I'm avoiding, so I'm guessing we are going to be in disagreement.
I don't use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is "problematic".
I can both understand the reasoning behind those who choose to use it, and agree that there are examples of men who absolutely do perform their idea of women in a demeaning way.
I can maintain sympathy for people who have difficulty accepting their sex, without colluding with the delusion that it is possible for them to change their sex.
I can also understand the frustration of women who are confronted with men – who are neither distressed or vulnerable – but gleeful about being able to demonstrate their misogyny or paraphilia in society not only without censure, but with full support of those who consider themselves progressive.
Do so what? Can you please quote me and link to where I said the thing you are referring to, because I’m lost.
So maybe don’t assume my use of ‘problematic’ is the same use you don’t like?
Same. Also, in GC circles (as in all of politics) there is actual racism. Using womanface makes things messy and the current debate is not only incapable of dealing with that, it’s also caused a lot of damage and division.
@weka
"Do so what? Can you please quote me and link to where I said the thing you are referring to, because I’m lost."
Your question was here:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-01-2024/#comment-1984607
… and it was:
And my reply clarifying my recognition of that fact with an example was here:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-01-2024/#comment-1984727
If this is getting too bogged down then I am happy to let it go.
However, I will make note of the fact that while aware of such women, I am also very aware of men who declare themselves to be women, expressing perspectives that both denigrate and demean women and girls. These men not only are not censured for it, they often receive accolades, financial rewards and positions of authority over women or women's advocacy.
There are many such examples. One recent one was the appointment of Munroe Bergdorf as the UN Champion for women. The comments they have made are mild compared to others but show little awareness about women, and disparagement for women who believe sex recognition matters:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12932435/munroe-bergdorf-unchampion-british-women-hate-women.html
From the (extremely long) letter:
"Let’s be clear about something.
Phillippa was trespassed from New World Ōtaki because she is suspected of being a Terf.
She is a Terf.
I am a Terf.
Many, many, thousands of women around the world are Terfs."
Quite strident in her beliefs.
Are you excusing the trespassing women for "stridency" now?
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
"Men are women" – is a unfounded belief – an article of faith.
You posted a link to a letter: "an article written by someone close to the customer"
That woman is quite strident.
"That woman is quite strident."
So?
How do you determine stridency?
What do you propose should be the consequence of stridency?
When you've cleared that up, will you then address the truth of the first statement, and the disconnection from reality that is required to consider it offensive?
Have you not read the letter?
Strident as.
what's wrong with a woman being strident?
Who said being strident is wrong?
perhaps you are unaware that strident is a negative term used about women, especially in politics, to undermine them and their words/actions/mana.
Is it?
I had no idea it had picked up/been assigned a particular value when used to describe women!
How odd!
Not so much odd as everyday sexism
I can see that "hysterical" can be, but "strident"? There's nothing (that I can see) intrinsic in the word that might trigger anguish.
Must be an insider-thing.
Is "intense" everyday sexism?
I think, Robert, that both strident and hysterical are equally potent words when it comes to unfairly attacking an opponent.
With regard the use of inflammatory terms, Anker says:
"I have had great feedback when I wear it. Its targeting the mysogyny of the term Terf"
but Molly's letter-writer and supporter of the t-shirt-wearer says,
"Let’s be clear about something.
Phillippa was trespassed from New World Ōtaki because she is suspected of being a Terf.
She is a Terf.
I am a Terf.
Many, many, thousands of women around the world are Terfs."
Has consensus been arrived at here on TS regarding the word?
I understood "hysterical" to be particularly inflammatory and can see why.
Strident:
presenting a point of view, especially a controversial one, in an excessively forceful way.
"public pronouncements on the crisis became less strident"
Not really seeing how that's offensive but accept weka's advice that it has taken on that quality in some circles (is "circles" okay?)
These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia.
Let me break it down.
The problem isn’t that the words trigger anguish. The problem is that they are used as tools by people, usually men, to put women in their place. That’s the difference between personal insult and politics. In class analysis, biological sex is one of the three axes of oppression (along with race/ethnicity and socio-economic class). Sexism is part of the system of oppression of females on the basis of sex, it’s not something that can be understood primarily through a lens of triggering anguish.
The words aren’t intrinsically sexist, the sexism is in the usage. Calling a poem strident has a different implication than calling a woman strident. Most feminists know the sexist used of the word strident. That you don’t see anything sexist about the word is an indication of your lack of awareness.
Thus, you could have called the post intense and not invoked a sexist trope.
The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner.
Again, it’s not about offence taken, or even given, although some people use words to be both sexist and offensive.
The word terf was coined a long time ago by a trans woman. It’s an acronym: trans exclusionary radical feminist. That in and of itself is a relatively neutral albeit somewhat inaccurate descriptor. But since the gender/sex wars of the last decade, it’s been taken up and used by some liberals, trans activists, trans allies (TA), and Men’s Rights Activists, as a term of abuse.
This equating of terf with a woman bigot/nazi/evil doer, was an intentional strategy, widely promoted. It’s also been used to direct violent misogyny at women online, and the TAs and gender identity ideologists have largely sanctioned this. That’s often left wing men, sanctioning online violence against women because they object to the women’s feminist politics
A lot of women reclaimed the word terf, in the same way that black men reclaimed nigger, or gay men reclaimed queer.
Again, the meaning and intend of the usage of the word itself depends on who is using it and how.
There is no consensus on words on TS that I’m aware of. I moderate the word terf as a term of abuse when I see it, but there is no ban on the word itself, which is why today’s use on TS is fine.
You can probably see the same thing with the word nigger. A black man using the term in the rap song is quite different from a KKK member using it a term of abuse towards black people.
"These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia."
If your conventional farmer-who-lacked-knowledge-about-soil microbia was discussing trees, I'd regard it as an opportunity to increase her knowledge, for the betterment of all, rather than lambast her for her ignorance. Not saying that's what's happening here, but there's a hint of it in the air…
ok. I’ve seen farmers react to reasonable explanations as if they were being lambasted. Criticism can be hard to take for sure. This is a political blog with an ethos of robust debate. I can change how I communicate more than I already am, but you’d have to give me some clues. I’ve been feeling I have to really spell it out because I’ve observed a fair amount of missing the point from you on this topic. Too blunt?
"Most feminists know the sexist used (sic) of the word strident. "
Do they?
There's certainly no clue in the word itself, as there is with "hysterical".
I guess it's the responsibility of all people who are not feminists, to research words to determine if they are sexist.
"The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner."
Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, "strident", how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner? Or could it be that it was just taken that way?
rereading the thread, here’s what happened.
FWIW, no, I don’t think you used the term in an intentionally sexist way. If you look back you can clearly see that I have not at any time said you were being sexist. What I did was point out that the term has a sexist usage, because I thought you were unaware of that and you might want to be aware of that in a conversation about women’s rights.
If I think someone on TS is being overtly, intentionally sexist, I usually say so up front.
What would be useful right now is if you would clarify if you accept that the term has a sexist history (despite you not knowing that earlier and not having used it that way).
Jesus wept!
Yes, I can see the term has "the term has a sexist history" – what in God's name would cause you to think I hadn't?
🙂
The intensity that develops around these issues is what interested me; what happened to batting ideas back and forward, for the sake of it?
Sooo serious, we are, here on TS.
tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes. I didn’t see you acknowledge that the term has a sexist history. Your questioning rhetoric often comes across as questioning the validity of what people are saying. It was strange to me that we spent so much time talking about concepts of political language that I think are common place on TS.
As for batting ideas back and forth, maybe for you this is a lighter issue. For some of us it is incredibly serious. For me personally, GC politics is the most important issue we face after climate/ecology (for complex reasons to do with the suppression of women’s knowledge and way of thinking about climate/ecology, and I don’t think it’s coincidence there are very strong pushes to remove women-centre politics at this time). Although the Treaty issues arising are up there too. Same deal.
Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think.
"Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think."
So, avoid the feminist stuff, eh!
No fun to be had there!
Got it!
You are welcome to talk about feminist issues, and GC pol doesn't just affect women. But you can't expect other people to talk about it with the fun vibe you seem to want, if they don't want to.
I had some great fun with GC feminists last year, and there were times when it was incredibly serious. I really don't see the problem other than maybe you misreading the room or wanting other people to act in a certain way.
"tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes."
You're not alone in that, weka 🙂
Thanks for the reminder (I forget about that).
thanks Robert.
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
No, it's not a fact. "even if you squint" indicates that it's a visual perception issue. That means seeing a man or a woman is the issue. If you squint and see a woman, you see a woman, whether the subject of your attention is or isn't (it might even be a mannequin).
it's a weird tshirt, the slogan doesn't work very well in that you have to think about it rather than getting it immediately.
Might "indicate" a perception issue – but still a statement of fact.
However, people have a problem with the concise and accurate three word descriptor – adult human female – so I don't think clarity improves that cognitive issue.
Maybe an example of an individual/group claiming and using a word to 'defang' it?
At the PYO blueberry farm where I pick, ~10 years ago the unpretentious roadside sign "Blueberries, 9 – 2 pm" had been altered to read "Blueberries are Gay".
That’s funny (to me) to this day – perhaps you had to be there.
😂
Trotter's diagnosis of Labour's mistakes:
Hang on, he oughta already know that Labour always blames any semi-plausible scapegoat. Not in their genes to acknowledge their mistakes – still silent, laying low.
An eastern US event rarer than Halley's comet.
2024 is a special year for periodical cicadas:
The next co-emergence of any kind will not happen for another 13 years!
https://cicadas.uconn.edu/
Actually despite my change of heart politically, congrats to Jacinda and Clarke. And frankly the protesters should bugger off.
Protest any other day, knock yourself out, but its their wedding ffs.
I might add, protesting about Jacinda is a little close to trying to punish her. So I am not endorsing their protest of her
Haven't been keeping up with the news (really not very interested in other people's weddings) – but if there are protesters there – they should be ashamed of themselves.
Yes agreed, good riddance to her and the damage she's done to NZ will take years/decades to undo
But she's left office so it's over, let her enjoy her wedding in peace
Ummm – I for one am very grateful to our former PM as I had covid nearly 2 years ago which affected my heart, which I gather would have been far worse if I hadn't been vacinated (I continue to keep up to date with my boosters) and take extra care as Covid is back with us with avengeance and quite rampant in our area. Just glad I'm still alive and sort of kicking.
That's nice
If anyone responds in a smarmy manner, JillyBee, just ignore them 🙂
Smarmy, or prattish – as in 'a self-important prattish' manner?
Not Robin himself, of course, just his commenting style here – Acting the prat.
Robin's chosen an interesting handle, given the Goodfellow chap who presided over the National Party throughout their Dirty Politics years…
Bless your heart
You're a Goodfellow, Robin.
I know what you mean, Jilly.
Ardern did a great deed in declaring a lock down or two and protecting the most vulnerable amongst us the best she could have done and that was all anybody could have asked for in that time.
I am grateful that she was there when the first outbreaks were around.
It could have been worse. :O
Thats good to hear Jilly Bee.
Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back to Pats original piece on here about Dame Anne Salmond column. We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?
IMO ideology took over the Govt agenda. I found it alarming the ideas in the He Puapua report, followed up by things like the Rotorua amendment Bill, the gender self ID select committee, where women were raising very valid concerns and were treated with contempt by mostly Labour women MPs. As there was imo no mandate for these policies (gender self Id, trans in women's sports in particular have very poor support in political polls. What are you supposed to do when the govt you have supported are pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on? This is a geniune question. I think the coalition might be blamed for pushing the division, but actually they were responding to policy being brought in by Labour. Someone said it takes two to tango. But if someone starts something, sometimes the best option is to push back
" We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?"
Nothing to do with gender, all to do with Covid.
The Covidiots created the divide.
"it's all their fault"
It's funny, when reading Dame Anne Salmond's article and she spoke of divisions and the need to heal them, I thought of Robert and the attitudes behind cookers, now covidiots.
Just kinda pulling the scab off and having a poke at the wound just for the sake of it.
EDIT: Nevermind – found the link to her article!
it's a strange blindspot.
I've sworn off the use of that term, gsays.
Are you struggling to do the same?
"Protest any other day, knock yourself out, but its their wedding ffs."
Then this:
"Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back…"
Both from Anker, in the space of an evening.
pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on
Tbh I didn't really notice they were doing so until quite late. I'm so used to their bumbling style I guess, I did point out quite a few times onsite here that it seemed peculiar they were doing what the media called co-governance without explaining themselves to the public, but it never actually occurred to me that it was cynical.
I did read it as timidity, but that's just usual Labour. I think I may have even given them credit for being progressive about it once or twice. But stealth politics does have an anti-democratic whiff about it. There's a reasonable basis for co-governance, if you view the Treaty as a social contract, so I guess I indulged them on that basis.
The opposition to it also seems reasonable if you see the Treaty as merely history though, and I doubt Dame Anne has explicitly supported Labour's strategy.
May you all have a good day.