Hipkins was also losing his main advantage over National’s leader Christopher Luxon: his personal popularity. He had dropped from 29 to 23 per cent as preferred Prime Minister in the Curia poll, now just three points ahead of Luxon on 20 per cent.
And the Curia poll also hit a record low for those who believed the country was heading in the wrong direction: 65 per cent said it was heading that way, while only 22 per cent believed it was the right direction.
The PM has lost his mana and is now only marginally ahead of Luxon. Two thirds of the respondents reckon Aotearoa is going the wrong way, only a fifth think it's on track. The other 13% either believe its going sideways or deemed the question too hard.
Anyone who can cook up a left-wing win scenario out of this public sentiment are pushing shit up-hill…
See that straight-talking stance he's got going there: tell it like it is. It will be expedient to attract floating voters back to Labour after having alienated them. It will also be unlikely. Boomers will need a substantial bribe, so we could expect Grant to pull a magic rabbit out of his financial hat: rob the poor to pay the rich! Classic neoliberalism.
The PM will be happy with that, knowing that he's out-Luxing Luxon. Labour will leap up & down with excitement, seeing that they will continue to represent the middle class.
The Herald poll bar graph in primary colours displays a precise electorate triad: left/right/neither all rating a third each!
The Financial Times was impressed to see this announcement to the media. I expect most of their media would have agreed with him that they did indeed know that.
However there would inevitably be some who would wonder, knowing that any statement from the Conservatives was probably untrue.
I suspect their media also contains hard-core sceptics operating from down their personal rabbit-hole – immediately realising that the official denial meant the govt really was Amazon. These folk would jump onto the internet to spread the word…
Three's political editor has a farming tail wagging Labour dog theory:
Behind the scenes, I'm hearing it was the risk of revolt from the farmers that wrecked this one. While $5 million in wealth sounds like a lot to most New Zealanders, a bunch of dairy farms would've been captured and Hipkins didn't count on his ability to sell it in a close election campaign.
So Hipkins believes dairy farmers vote Labour & freaked out about the wealth tax, realising it would force them to vote National. I'm impressed. Such laser-like political logic would have been way over the heads of most Labourites, I'd have thought.
Heaps of farms are held in trusts as well, there's no doubt it would be problematic to levy a fairly significant tax on what is productive sector in terms of export dollars.
It's the unproductive stuff we need to figure out how to capture and ideally make things like housing far less of an attractive short term investment vehicle.
Easier just to say everyone is wealthy and tax them.
Even with a sarc tag this would be a disingenuous comment. There is nothing ‘easy’ about the Greens’ Tax Policy, for example. Your disagreeing views are starting to straddle into obnoxious resistance.
Sorry for leaving off the sarcasm tag. I did mean it sarcastically.
I am entitled to my views. if I want to express them sarcastically then I will. I happen to think that the Treasury and IRD work on high net work individuals is better. That is not resisting just saying someone else got some thing 'more righter' (sic)
I have been putting forward other ideas that I hope will be looked at & will have a better chance of success. High net worth people should pay their share and if other taxes are slotted in at home sale or death waypoints those of us less financially endowed can too.
The Green party wealth tax failed in my view
1it included the family home
2 if they were to include the family home the point at which the tax came about needed to be much higher.
3 I still find the inclusion of KS problematic bearing in mind that those who took it out were probably responding to Govt signals that govt funded national Super may not be affordable in the long term,
and
it makes economic sense to do this.
NB in its work looking at high net worth individuals the figures discounted the value of the family home. That seems a fairly good sign to me that those investigating this had a pretty good understanding of the psyche of NZers as far as aspiring to buy/live in our own piece of dirt.
While I am glad that the wealth tax idea was knocked out there are still good policies in the Greens manifesto for those of us wanting to opt for the Labour/Greens combo.
And again, you misread the comment or chose to ignore the part(s) that you dislike. This is becoming an issue in discussions on this topic but I’m also starting to wonder more about your contributions to other discussion threads on other controversial topics here on TS. Note that my concern doesn’t relate to disagreeing opinion, counter-arguments, or discerning voice but to pattern behaviours that are not conducive to robust grown-up constructive debate. I refer to Lprent’s recent comments for further context.
Your comment was disingenuous, with or without sarc tag.
Everybody is free to put forward their views & opinions here. In fact, we welcome & encourage this in the expectation that it generates robust debate. People who have no arguments (left) sometime resort to disingenuous comments and this can turn into obnoxious behaviour.
The Wealth Tax proposals would affect approximately 0.5 to 0.7% of people, give or take, depending on the proposal. This is miles off being “everyone’, as you sarcastically implied.
Several times you have deflected & diverted to the example of those 311 of the wealthiest families in NZ that generally have a net worth of more than $50M. It is disingenuous to suggest that tax policy should focus or target on only those families when it is the findings of this research that underpins much of the WT proposals. I note that these are families, not individuals, so you are comparing apples & oranges, again.
NB in its work looking at high net worth individuals the figures discounted the value of the family home.
Citation needed. It’s irrelevant anyway for the purpose of that research.
“NB in its work looking at high net worth individuals the figures discounted the value of the family home.
Citation needed. It’s irrelevant anyway for the purpose of that research.”
I have already linked to this today.
The papers show that Treasury estimated a tax on individuals with assets of over $5 million, not including their family home, would hit only 25,000 individuals or 0.5 per cent of the total population. However, that group would have assets totalling $5 billion or 26% of all the assets held by individuals. Nevertheless, it could raise $3.8 billion a year by 2025 and allow tax reductions for low income taxpayers. But the Prime Minister,ruled it out in late April and even more emphatically yesterday.
The figures that are covered in this is 25,000 people with assets of over $5M. It excludes the family home and could raise $3.8billion pa by 2025.
So even considering the wealth of these 25,000 the regulators feel that including the family home is not on. They may be more in tune with the known psyche/social/historic relationship that Kiwis have with home ownership.
Census data shows that homeownership peaked in the 1990s at 74 percent and by 2018 had fallen to 65 percent of households, the lowest rate since 1951. However, homeownership rates appear to have been more stable between 2013 and 2018.
Looking at those who owned more than one property ie excluding the family home, may include some of the ones already caught in the Treasury figures. It gives an idea of where to look now, possibly, if there is a correlation between owning more than one property and ghost or empty houses. Taxing empty houses may be worth looking at.
One such analysis, which was based on Land Information New Zealand and Companies Office data, found that 13.2 per cent of property was owned by people who had two properties while 6.5 per cent was owned by people who had three properties.
These are the world-wide figures for home ownership.
Even noting that home ownership rates have fallen in NZ, it is still a majority.
I feel we need to work so all have the chance to home ownership. This should not be taxed.
Or have a rental market that is stable, possibly including more institutional investors, so people can rent for long periods of time and have stability. They have the option then of home ownership or renting without being at the whim of a private LL who may want to cash up.
I assume you’ve read those Budget papers released by Treasury and you’ve seen that Treasury advised against the exemption of the family home with some strong arguments.
The irony of your irrational resistance to including the family home in a Wealth Tax, which would only affect 0.5 or 0.7% of people, i.e., the wealthiest of all, is that it could increase inequity and move home ownership further out of reach for more Kiwis.
Including the family home in a WT is not a disincentive for home ownership, not even for those wealthy individuals. It is a fact that Capital Gains are a major source of un-taxed wealth in NZ. To wean off Kiwis from investing or speculating in property, including the family home, and instead investing in productive enterprises is something I do advocate unlike you, it seems.
I won’t even go into the effects of your stance on inter-generational wealth transfer among the well-offs by exempting the family home.
The absolute majority of home owners in NZ would not be affected by a WT under the proposals that we have seen. Your resistance is based on fear and thus is irrational.
If you are worth $2+M then you can afford to pay a WT. End of.
The figures that are covered in this is 25,000 people with assets of over $5M. It excludes the family home and could raise $3.8billion pa by 2025.
How does this lift everyone out of poverty?
The GP budgeted for $15.48B in 2024/2025 via a wealth tax, tax on trusts, and a change in companies tax rate.
That's what was needed to lift people out of poverty. Your figures are designed for an approach that lifts some people out of poverty and leaves the rest behind. That's horrible.
that doesn't adequately explain why a personal home should be excluded from a wealth tax.
Houses always cost money and yet people with over $2m are making far more in capital gains than it costs to maintain a house.
Houses do generate income, via capital gains. It's not weekly income but it is untaxed wealth accrual that most definitely people benefit from compared to people who don't own a home or who do but have assets less than $2m.
That's incorrect. Unrealised capital gains on residences is not income.
Many make the assumption that capital gains is guaranteed. Many home owners buy where they can afford or where it meets their life priorities (ie. close to family), and not necessarily in places with high capital gains.
Primarily, the current way of thinking about this issue is this:
Successive governments (both left and right) while pontificating about housing costs, have not prioritised this during their terms. In fact, most actions have been supportive of increasing prices and housing cost inflation, perhaps because it has been a driver of an economy that looks successful. However, let's ignore this.
Despite the failure of those successive governments to rein in housing costs, the state housing available has diminished as the population has grown, leaving the opportunity for private landlords to take a greater share of the rental market, which has also increased as home ownership becomes more difficult.
Half-hearted attempts to improve existing housing stock has been enacted by legislation, which shows the separation between talk and walk for the state, as they have repeatedly recused themselves from meeting the standards they have set.
Those who have repeatedly been identified as not paying income tax from flipping houses, by the mechanism of using it as a primary residence for three months, continue to be able to use this without fear of censure by the IRD. This is a data search for government departments to address, yet it remains a low or no priority area – even as talking heads keep talking about those who are making money by doing so.
Landlords who perform the service of providing housing of a good standard, and an affordable price are lumped in with non-landlords who take advantage of housing scarcity and provide unacceptable accommodation at ridiculous prices. The Tenancy Tribunal is either not able to deal with the complaints, or the complaints are not being made. Also, it may be that the Tribunal should pass on the worst cases to the court system, so that fines and sentences are immediate.
The vilification of landlords begins with the assumption that all landlords behave as the lowest common denominator, despite the fact that housing is a service provided.
Despite housing remaining a high cost, a removal of an existing business expense of bank interest is considered justified. Although every other business is able to claim this real cost of providing services. The only reason for this is that the capital gains of housing is now expected to keep increasing significantly and there are those that view this as immoral – even though individual investors do not play a part in this increase. However, if the result is not a reduced profit margin, but an actual detour into loss – then landlords will have to either subsidise the cost of providing housing to others, or will have to raise the rent to bring the business back into equilibrium. This move treated landlords as flippers who were avoiding capital gains tax, rather than the preferred type of private landlord who provides a good service, and ran their tenancies as a business.
That perspective once entrenched was destined to move onto any property owner, whether flipper, landlord or homeowner, and so it has come to pass.
Right, let's look at property prices in Auckland over the last ten years:
So the deposit alone will have lost earnings over this ten year period.
Best case scenario, if the house was purchased with cash, using the same interest rates the loss in interest is;
$570,000 – $279,774.63
While the capital value of the house has increased, the material depreciation would have decreased unless money has been spent on maintaining the property to the standard in which it was purchased.
A conservative estimate for house maintenance is 1% of the house value annually;
For simplicity I'll use only the purchase price rather than increase the value each year. Using the same calculator parameters, but with a yearly compound interest:
$5,700/year – over ten years with lost interest – $76,872.20
Not yet calculated is other associated costs such as insurance, and rates.
Using low 2023 rates of $2,400 to adjust for the fact they are not 2013 rates,
and an estimate of $200/month for home insurance will bring the annual rates and insurance bill to $4,800.
Put this into the interest calculator as above and:
After 10 years the cumulative cost is: $64,734.49
So, this is a best case scenario, that assumes no borrowing from the banks, but takes into account conservative lost interest.
It also assumes no material improvements in the property:
$279,774.63 Full purchase price lost interest
$ 76,872.20 Maintenance 1% incl lost interest
$ 64,734.49 Rates & Insurance incl lost interest
$421,381.32 Cost of owning home purchased for cash over 10yrs
Which is not far off the increase in capital value: $425,000
In essence, the "income" you refer to comes in @ $3,618.68 over ten years, or $361.87yr.
If a mortgage is involved, you can see how this creates a deficit for home owners in terms of financial benefits.
I would say that many average homeowners who live in their own homes, are paying out more for that decision than they are receiving in capital gains. The above calculation may indicate why. Many of those with a mortgage pay more for their housing than they would pay in a similar rental.
Let's not also forget that the hope is that housing prices decrease for all, and some have had significant losses in their investments recently:
"Currently, Auckland house prices have fallen 23.17% from the peak of the market in Nov 2021 through to May 2023."
Not minus, a obviously confusingly placed hyphen – referring to the usual deposits of either 10% or 20% of the purchase price, so:
Therefore, "10% – $57,000 – $27,977.46"
meant 10% deposit = $57,000 which if placed in a 4% (I took it as 5% with 1% going to IRD) compounding interest account would have generated $27,977.46 in interest over the ten year period.
Homes are homes not $$$$$ making ventures to bring in money.
Family homes provide stable places to live, bring up a family, stay in a community and be able to contribute to it.
People who own more that one home are looking at the $$$ side or it may be an extension to the family home concept in having a bach or crib (though I don't find that very persuasive)
Renting in NZ can be fraught with non professional or non institutional landlords leading to many people not having the ability to stay in one suburb (schooling etc) let alone one place.
I linked to a paper about the UKs housing and the need to provide more renting accomodation and this discusses focussing on instituinal investment
NZ has had a long social history of citizens being encouraged to own their own homes/properties including
1 legislative action over the years ranging from the breaking up of the great estates in the 1890s (when parts of NZ were on track to becoming little Englands with a built in tenant/landlord class and a farm owner/farm labourer class.
2 Home ownership was felt to be a just reward to be offered to returned soldiers after both WW1 & WW2 (particularly) Some times loans, some times sections/houses.
3 through to the Govt selling sections, houses, offering home loans, offering topped up savings schemes for deposits through the old NZ Post. Needless to say this all came to a grinding halt with the neo-libs. "not the role of Govt to encourage the flow of money anywhere other than the market' etc etc plus other rubbish
I hope that gives some indication of why I believe that treating capital gains as income – when there is no income – is an ill considered approach.
This to me has an impact like the story about little boy and the Emperor without clothes. Calls it like it is.
I must say this is one of the first that I have read that actually looks at what is proposed without name calling, 'misunderstanding' saying people don't understand links, connections and is short on rhetoric (this is a good thing)
Then read mine about the history of encouragment to buy a family home here in NZ that has been a feature since the 1890s at least and probably before that under the various provincial govts.
Then reflect on why the proposal to include the family home, at the least, made it doomed to failiure once it got out into the electorate. There are other oddities.
I feel this odd and ill thought out policy 'queered the pitch' and 'frightened the horses' so much that Hipkins has needed to squash speculation. In doing so he has had to rule out (again) the one that Treasury had been working on that had a higher assets limit $5m, did not include the family home.
The papers released yesterday include a series of technical papers addressing the issues a wealth tax would involve, but there was a strong undertone within them that both Treasury and Inland Revenue could see endless complexities in trying to introduce the tax and doubted it would achieve the revenue gains the Government hoped. https://www.politik.co.nz/labours-secret-tax-plans/ | Politik
I think we are well rid of the threat of this policy and it opens the door to a mature discussion on 'what is wealth?' cf The Greens say $2m and The Treasury said $5m. Knowing that The Treasury had access to much more quality information from other Govt depts and seemingly a better handle on what IRD/The Treasury called 'wealth' the higher figure is more like it. Productive industries like farms and factories though could easily top the $5m mark.
As Harman says…….'endless complexities in trying to introduce the tax and doubted it would achieve the revenue gains the Government hoped'.
So let us turn our minds to other ways to alleviate poverty, to make sure our overall taxation is fair and that it generates enough to meet all the policies of Govt including alleviating poverty. The Greens policy was silent on
why the wealth tax had been chosen
what other types of tax had been looked at and why they were discarded
why an additional tax was needed in any case ie with Vote: Govt reordering could alleviating poverty have been done in some other way?
The paper on high net worth is much more nuanced in saying that the high net worth individuals were wealthy but this was often from running productive units….business, farming ect.
Most of the capital gains made by the researched families came through increases in the value of businesses they own or control.
Heaps of farms are held in trusts as well, there's no doubt it would be problematic to levy a fairly significant tax on what is productive sector in terms of export dollars.
It's the unproductive stuff we need to figure out how to capture and ideally make things like housing far less of an attractive short term investment vehicle.
I think there is possibly a case to be made about farms, but the problem is farms have also had massive property capital gains in the past few decades and that is wealth. Some farmers can sell their farms and never work again. Other farms have huge debt because they believed that industrial dairy was the way to go. They won't be paying the wealth tax but the farmers in between might struggle.
Some of these farmers work really hard with living expenses being funded via a current account through the year and paid off after wool/meat/sales and only being able to pay themselves for 40 or 50 years of hard work after the property is sold. Even then many leave money in and don't get the full amount, forgiving any debts at death. Wage and salary earners usually get more than just their living expenses met.
I think many people seem to have some odd ideas about what and how other people live.
The papers show that Treasury estimated a tax on individuals with assets of over $5 million, not including their family home, would hit only 25,000 individuals or 0.5 per cent of the total population. However, that group would have assets totalling $5 billion or 26% of all the assets held by individuals. Nevertheless, it could raise $3.8 billion a year by 2025 and allow tax reductions for low income taxpayers. But the Prime Minister,ruled it out in late April and even more emphatically yesterday.
My opinion is that the Greens wealth tax lost it once the family home was included. It might have been less controversial had the family home been excluded.
Ok, so you clearly don't understand the political argument around poverty and the wealth gap.
Capital gains on housing is a large part of why many people live in poverty. The increases in the property market drove up house prices and rents. Some people did very well out of that, and many people can no longer afford to feed and raise their kids.
Labour's response is to raise wages, and they've done a good job on raising the minimum wage. But that hasn't kept up with the housing costs. They've also raised some benefits, but again, it's not kept up with housing costs and never can. This is a political choice to leave a lot of people living in poverty.
Some possible solutions:
crash the property market (no-one wants this).
Slowly drop the property market (eg over a decade) while raising wages and benefits (the GP did some work on this when Turei was co-leader, but it's not politically viable).
tax wealth and replace core benefits with a GMI, use rent caps and other tools to hold rents steady while incomes catch up.
Ok, so you clearly don't understand the political argument around poverty and the wealth gap.
Pity responses are more and more being phrased like this rather than acknowledging that the questioner did understand poverty/wealth conundrum but has disagreed with The Greens suggested solution.
In saying this you are using the great TINA (there is no other alternative) principle that in a quality debate gets you nowhere. If the policy got anywhere near The Treasury, Treasury would sniff out a TINA policy from a 1000 paces.
Because there are other alternatives – The Greens had chosen the wealth tax. And no-one seemed to know why, at least not on here.
"My opinion is that the Greens wealth tax lost it once the family home was included. It might have been less controversial had the family home been excluded."
The wealth tax is a strange beast anyway, but I addressed some of the issues regarding capital gains on the home as income here:
All good. I tried to be as conservative as possible, and it assumes perhaps a fairly high interest rate (I took it as 5% with 1% going to IRD), but it is also very low on maintenance estimates etc, so I think it balances out.
As soon as you've taken a loan out for the mortgage, the costs grow quite significantly, and given that most people with a mortgage pay more to service it than renters – it shows clearly the problem with assuming capital gains leads to material benefits for home owners.
in 2013, (notwithstanding how that bulk investment would affect the value), the purchase price of that median Auckland house would now be worth: $7,735,812
That was posted to this site several times last election, and probably the one before that too. The usual response of the people: doan wanna.
That's the amusing thing about the Greens' tax strategy – those most likely to benefit matches those least likely to vote. I suspect the Greens do actually know that, and are yielding to the traditional socialist stance out of their inner need to signal that virtue.
Feeling good defeats political logic. Morally righteous defeats success. But hey, always possible that the electorate could prove me wrong…
Hipkins killed any hope of that yesterday. No really he did. We care deeply about policy unlike the easily conned boomers who fall for every scam and conspiracy online, we see through political bullshit.
We are renters ffs. We want a capital gains tax and to sock it to the rich.
He basically told every zoomer and millennial to go fuck ourselves because none of the policies we care about in housing or tax will ever happen under him, he basically told us it doesn't matter left wing party you vote for, it ain't happening, "end of story"
Get rid of that muppet.
That budget he canned would have labour polling in the fucking 40s for a few weeks.
No political instincts, no charisma, no spine and he takes weeks and weeks to make decisions about his errant ministers.
I am on your side Corey about renting and not home ownership for your generation. Two step children and I am really not sure how they will manage. We give them as much help as we can.
But I have to object to your potrayal of boomers who 'fall for every scam and consipiracy theory on line". Where's your evidence for this? It didn't look to me like there were a whole lot of boomers at parliament (the protest) and as far as I know most boomers got the covid jab.
Having read the piece that Denis put up earlier (the interview with Sir Geoffry Palmer) I was reminded how in my childhood we would never lock our doors. What has changed? Don't know. I was a working class kid and was housed cause of the state house building programme. The conditions we lived in would be considered overcrowding now.
The solution to the housing crisis that is most likely to work is to flood the market with housing. Labour have been unable to do it.
So roll Chippy, put Grant in for the election and give something new groundbreaking and positive a real shot?
Perhaps better than going down as National lite and continuing to have little or nothing to show from the Ardern years in terms of significant change to inequality.
Plus first openly gay PM and with plenty of experience on how to do the job.
That’s a very casual dismissal of Grant as a ‘diversity pick up.’ If he wasn’t gay, I’d suggest he’d have been a shoo in as leader much earlier in the piece.
And the policies are exactly my point. Clearly there has been a movement in Labour to address inequality and Hipkins has made it a no go.
It would be a chance to front tax reform already prepared for by the revenue minister.
The quote here was a wealth tax was over 50% popular. If that’s true don’t be out of step with the other countries.
Otherwise the gap between Chippy and Steven Joyce begins to look less than that between him and his party.
I don't think G.R has any support from the public other then those that reflexively vote Labour.
Put G.R in the leader spot and i am taking bets that Labour could fall below Cunliffe efforts2014, Labour got about 25.1 %? And god only knows how low Andrew Little polled when they pushed J.A to the spot of leadership in order to win an election.
Chippie is the best atm i think they have, and he is about as exiting as is stale white toast. Untoasted.
Neither of you read the comment- clearly with Minister Parker’s report there’s been preparation for some redistributive tax and support within Labour for that. That would be the basis for proposing the new leader. To potentially follow through on a core policy.
and @Jack you ever watch Key in the house?
Grant can be an effective communicator, but has been inside treasury and not thinking outside of Wellington. Remember him standing out on that pub politics show waaay back with Wallace Chapman.
Grant to me looks like he is ready to sign out. Just my opinion, but we are not seeing much of him of late and he is not standing for Wellington Central and going to be a list MP. Bets on that if Labour loses he will walk
Guess I was seeing the possibility of it as a Barristan Selmy or Jora Thormont type mission. Among which Labour finance ministers does he want to be remembered? It’s all a lot of faff, but so is getting into politics.
He and David Parker have already suggested they disagreed with Hipkins, or at least Hipkins says it was his decision. Enough of these captain’s calls. We’re not a presidency. They only work if his whole team, many of whom won’t be back, support his stance. He can’t say it’s a captain’s call unless the whole team goes along with it in a parliamentary democracy.
When considering National's boot camp idea, I think it is very important to consider the specifics of the proposed program before making broad judgements.
I checked with Chat GPT about the effectiveness of boot camps. It came back and said that the evidence is mixed on boot camps that focus on physical exercise etc, and that there isn't much evidence that they are any more effective than other interventions.
But then I asked, what if the focus is on addressing education and drug addiction issues and social support is provided for youth when they return to the community. (as is the case with National's proposal). Here is its response below:
That's a very important question. Research consistently shows that comprehensive, multi-faceted interventions that address a range of needs and issues have the greatest potential to positively impact youth offender outcomes, including reducing recidivism.
Education: Many young offenders have low levels of educational attainment, so providing educational opportunities can be critical for their future success. This can help reduce recidivism by providing them with more opportunities for employment and a better socioeconomic status, both of which are often correlated with lower crime rates.
Substance Abuse Treatment: Many youth offenders struggle with substance abuse issues. Evidence-based substance abuse treatment, including both pharmacological and behavioral interventions, can therefore be an important component of reducing recidivism.
Social Support: A strong network of support can be critical for youth offenders returning to their communities. This might include mentoring programs, family-based interventions, and community reintegration programs designed to help youth navigate the challenges they face after release.
Programs that address these issues as part of a holistic intervention are more likely to be effective than those that only focus on one aspect. The "Risk-Need-Responsivity" (RNR) model is a widely recognized framework in the field of criminal justice that emphasizes the importance of addressing individual's risk factors, needs, and their ability to respond to interventions.
That said, the specifics of implementation matter a great deal. Not all programs are created equal, and it's important for programs to be based on solid research, well-implemented, and regularly evaluated for effectiveness. It's also important to consider the specific characteristics and needs of the individual youth, as different interventions may be more or less effective for different individuals.
As always, it's crucial to look for up-to-date, peer-reviewed research when considering the effectiveness of specific interventions or models.
This response is very much in line with my understanding of the situation. So, if a program has these elements, then it is far more likely to be successful than the traditional boot camp model.
I agree with what you follow it up with, but especially your paragraph here:
"That said, the specifics of implementation matter a great deal. Not all programs are created equal, and it's important for programs to be based on solid research, well-implemented, and regularly evaluated for effectiveness. It's also important to consider the specific characteristics and needs of the individual youth, as different interventions may be more or less effective for different individuals."
So collective web wisdom is that boot camps suck but investing money into proper rehabilitation and social services work…
Which party do you think will actually do the stuff known to work? And which one will throw kids into an army camp, talk about setting up the other stuff and then never actually do it because of stuff….
Young Offender Military Academies, would be set up by the Ministry of Justice in partnership with the Defence Force, for young serious offenders aged 15 to 17 to spend up to a year. They would include schooling, counselling, drug and alcohol treatment, mentoring, and cultural support, and a case worker will be assigned to the family.
ChatGPT ??? A completely reliable system prone to making shit up. Generally it seems to feed back what the questioner wants. I’d want to look at the exact search statements to determine flaws. But that lack of references tends to indicate that this is likely to be complete bullshit. Ask for pinpoint references and then check them.
However, I’ve seen about 3 or 4 rounds of boot camp type proposals go through so far in the last 40 years. What I always notice is that they are invariably set up on the absolute cheapest possible basis. Their operational costs were a tiny fraction of the cost of (for instance) basic training by the military. Their setup costs were tiny as well.
Certainly the last round of NationalAct ones were. All that have tried to implement were complete failures.
Education is really expensive, especially when you’re looking at kids without basics and at varying levels. That is before you even look at the social and mental deprivation interfering with education.
Substance abuse is also bloody expensive, especially providing the on-site facilities for emergency treatment and getting staffing.
Social support – again expensive and really hard to setup in community. Typically this would take quite some time to set up. And it’d probably have to localised so it’d need to scattered widely. The probability of being able to use existing social services is minimal – they’re overstretched already. This is a whole new country wide program.
Whatever else is used in a boot-camp. To date this has mostly been people shouting. That was cheapish, but completely ineffective.
So until ActNational announces their programme setup and per person budget, it is pointless considering it. I’d bet we never see anything over the next 100 days. To date they have only ever provided day-care levels of funding.
So this is just a corflute slogan policy with a picture of the Luxon dimwit next to it.
A separate question is if the boot-camp idea would be effective at all. I consider that to be highly unlikely as well. In my opinion as a ex-soldier who has done a real boot-camp and as someone who spent a number of years writing military training programs, it is highly unlikely.
There is a reason why our military is so damn picky about who they induct and how they train them. It is a highly expensive operation. Doing a boot-camp for teens who don’t want to be there and who aren’t selected as being trainable is a few orders of magnitude harder and more expensive.
Speaking as a programmer, relying on ChatGPT for research without thoroughly checking the sources of what it produces is the action of a gullible idiot. Ask it for pinpoint reference links and then check them.
relying on ChatGPT for research without thoroughly checking the sources of what it produces is the action of a gullible idiot. Ask it for pinpoint reference links and then check them.
Yeah, I would agree with you normally on this. Except, I wasn't just relying only on Chat GPT. I was also relying on a lecture I remember during my Masters years, when we had a lecture from a guy who runs an institution in the US for youth on the verge of serious prison time as a last intervention.
He was saying it was easy to get amazing change while the youth were in the institution, but the changes evaporated once the youth returned to their communities. So, they had to do a lot of community intervention and provide a lot of community support to get the changes to stick more reliably.
Therefore, so far as National's plan goes, I agree with it in principle. But, whether it will be done well enough is another matter. These sort of interventions are incredibly expensive. So, if the community side of the intervention is only at a superficial level, then I doubt it will work.
I posted about the Limited Service Volunteer programme below, and one aspect that does seem to be positive is that IF a volunteer does go on to enlist, they have a fully functioning community around them from that point on, that allows them to make changes.
Providing a supportive environment post intervention is the most difficult part of supporting change.
And, I just asked Chat GPT for supporting studies. Here was the result:
Absolutely, here are a few studies and reports as of my knowledge cut-off in September 2021, related to the points mentioned:
Education: A report from RAND Corporation, "How Effective Is Correctional Education, and Where Do We Go from Here?" (2014), discusses the positive effects of correctional education on reducing recidivism and increasing employment.
Substance Abuse Treatment: A paper by Mitchell et al. (2007) titled "Does incarceration-based drug treatment reduce recidivism? A meta-analytic synthesis of the research" found that prison-based substance abuse treatment was associated with reduced post-release recidivism.
Social Support: In the study "Effects of mentoring on post-release outcomes: findings of a longitudinal study in England and Wales" (2019) by Shapland and Bottoms, the researchers found that having a mentor can significantly reduce reoffending among young offenders.
Risk-Need-Responsivity (RNR) model: A paper by Andrews and Bonta (2010) titled "Rehabilitating criminal justice policy and practice" provides evidence for the effectiveness of the RNR model in reducing recidivism.
Remember, ongoing research in this area may provide newer insights, so it's always good practice to look for the most recent studies on the topic. Also, these studies provide evidence based on large populations and may not apply equally to every individual case. Interventions should always be tailored to individual needs and circumstances.
[This is not good enough. You know that you must provide links to material you quote or cite.
Also, you seem to be new to using ChatGPT and an ignorant tool using an ignorant tool. Lprent has already commented on your ignorance.
Ask it for pinpoint reference links and then check them.
Responses from ChatGPT, for example, can sound very compelling & convincing and it is easy to be fooled by this. ChatGPT is also prone to what is called ‘hallucinating’, which means it can generate utter BS.
You are in Pre-Mod until you’ve provided links for your alleged sources and checked them.
You cannot hide behind responses from ChatGPT or any other GPT tool. You write & submit the comments and thus they are yours and your responsibility.
This Mod note is mostly educational & instructional because I suspect the use of GPT and other AI tools will become more common here on TS and people have to be aware of the pitfalls, just as they are about using material sourced from MSM and SM.
In other words, this is not personal but a precedent/reference point for future moderation – Incognito]
This study relates to education in correctional facilities rather than boot camps. But the key point is that dealing with educational deficiencies reduces offending.
Inmates who participate in correctional education programs had a 43 percent lower chance of recidivating than those who did not — a reduction in the risk of recidivating of 13 percentage points.
and
Two juvenile correctional education programs show promise: Read 180 and Florida's Avon Park Youth Academy.
The second study considered drug interventions in incarcerated communities, including including theraputic communities and boot camps. Positive results in reducing reoffending for theraputic communities. Mixed results for boot camps.
Because National's plan includes remedial education and drug interventions, plus social support, rather than the traditional fitness regime associated with boot camps, I would argue the plan proposed by National is more akin to theraputic communities than boot camps.
This study again found that education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments. Although not directly related to boot camps, the similar principles are likely to apply given that in both circumstances, the interventions will apply to confined individuals.
Consequently, I think it is reasonable to argue that any program that includes these elements whether in prison or some other setting where individuals have been confined due to their offending will likely be more effective than merely locking people away or putting them through a fitness regime in the context of a boot camp.
[You made an effort to provide 3/4 links; where’s the 4th link?
The link for the 2nd study goes to an Abstract only; where’s the full study report?
You made an effort to ‘check’ the source material by skimming the key findings and/or abstracts, quite possibly relying on and reiterating what ChatGPT had already generated for you, and I doubt you read those two publications that were 17 pages (13 + 4 pages of references) and 156 pages long, respectively.
For example, where in the study by Andrews and Bonta does it say that “education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments”? It may well be in there somewhere, but the onus is on you to point us to it rather than making us read the whole paper for ourselves (and then coming to a different conclusion).
You don’t seem to be aware that ChatGPT may be intrinsically biased because it is trained on huge volumes of text found on the internet. In addition, you may have increased any bias through your lines of questioning to ChatGPT.
Your selective material, selective quoting, and super-superficial ‘analysis’ suggest that you were simply searching for stuff that confirmed your own bias. You used this as an excuse to spread NACT talking points & propaganda here on TS.
You are trying hard to merge & marry NACT & your apparent preference of boot camps with the findings of those studies when there’s in fact little to no support for this in the material. If I’m incorrect then point to the relevant sections on boot camps in those studies. As far as I can tell, the available evidence in the material you provided is negative re. boot camps and even shows they are counter-productive for the level of recidivism.
You must try harder and you’re wasting other people’s time – Incognito]
Very often, abstracts are the best that is available due to publications being in paid subscription journals. So, that is the best I can probably do.
Here is the link I missed. Again an abstract.
For the link below, it is necessary to approach the authors for the full version. So, I am unsure how long it will take to get a response back to that.
This study found that fifth and six graders improved performance as a result of mentoring.
I disagree with you about relevance. Having read quite a few papers, and written a thesis, it is not unusual to refer to research that in principle should apply in different settings. Sometimes, that is the best that can be done if specific research is not available in that area.
If that were not the case, we would not be conducting medical research on mice and drawing possible implications for humans.
I think it is intuitively obvious that correcting educational gaps, reducing drug addiction, and providing social support would be effective in many settings.
It is the same one as before. The one that is still missing is the one by Shapland and Bottoms.
For the link below, it is necessary to approach the authors for the full version. So, I am unsure how long it will take to get a response back to that.
I’m not asking or expecting you to get the full version from the authors. The issue is that you superficially parade summarised material (abstracts) because it confirms your bias and suits your narrative. Without the all the information & context in a full paper/report all we’re left with is the equivalent of reading headlines or tweets.
This study found that fifth and six graders improved performance as a result of mentoring.
That’s lovely but what does this and/or the PubMed link have to do with the Mod notes?
I disagree with you about relevance. Having read quite a few papers, and written a thesis, it is not unusual to refer to research that in principle should apply in different settings. Sometimes, that is the best that can be done if specific research is not available in that area.
Irrelevant to the Mod notes, as far as I can tell.
If that were not the case, we would not be conducting medical research on mice and drawing possible implications for humans.
Are you comparing youth offenders to lab mice? And boot camps to lab experiments?
I think it is intuitively obvious that correcting educational gaps, reducing drug addiction, and providing social support would be effective in many settings. [my italics]
I like that! It is intuitively crystal clear that you’re diverting and that you’re wasting more of my precious time – Incognito.
Further to my last comment, that Andrews and Botha paper is actually a very good one, because it suggests that factors such as correcting educational and drug addiction interventions along with social support are necessary for any programs aiming to reduce offending. From that article on page 40:
However, once again, adherence with such principles will not enhance crime prevention unless the applications are in touch with empirically validated psychological principles of behavioral influence and behavior change. We examine the failure of get tough policies on criminal recidivism briefly
The article refers to their RNR model as a framework for developing interventions in a wide variety of settings. On page 44 &45:
1. Risk principle: Direct intensive services to the higher risk offenders and minimize services to the low risk offenders.
2. Need principle: Target criminogenic needs in treatment. 44 ANDREWS AND BONTA 3.
Responsivity principle: Provide the treatment in a style and mode that is responsive to the offender’s learning style and ability.
These are general principles the authors posit should be applied to any program aimed at addressing criminal behaviour in a variety of settings.
And this model is largely met by National's proposed program. In principle at least. Whether that will be implemented effectively is another story.
[You keep on wasting my time with this.
The task at hand is for you to learn the limitations of your uncritical, biased & selective use of ChatGPT to promote NACT talking points & propaganda.
Your task, set by me and with support from other Mods, is not to argue for or defend NACT propaganda but to correct your comments that were missing links and critical commentary by yourself. In other words, ChatGPT sold you lemons and you were and still are trying to sell them off here. But they are now your lemons and you now are the seller, not ChatGPT or whatever or whoever your source was. So, you must take ownership of and responsibility for your comments and be accountable.
This is the basis of robust god-faith debate here on TS and it applies to every commenter.
I’m still waiting for a link + check by you of the 4th article by Shapland and Bottoms. Get on with it because I’m running out of patience and I’ve better things to do.
I also asked you where in the study by Andrews and Bonta does it say “education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments”? This was triggered by your claim “This study again found that education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments.” I still haven’t seen it, most likely because you made it up.
There’s one more comment of yours pending in Pre-Mod. I will deal with that one too but don’t bother submitting any other comments till this has been resolved, one way or another, as I will send them straight to Trash – Incognito]
Limited Service Volunteer programmes have been running through both Labour and National governments. They could be considered a supported form of bootcamp.
They often have young people on them that have been directed there by the Ministry of Social Development, or the Justice System.
I have relatives that have been tasked with running some of these courses in the past.
Unfortunately, the mix of "directed" volunteers and those who have an interest in the Armed Forces as a career disrupts both groups in terms of outcomes.
There's a good report from 2019 that has a wealth of detail in it:
What it is called again when you feign a hit job on yourself? Dodging a bullet? Ducking for cover? Deflecting the issue? A coward? A faker? A liar & a cheater?
The point made about the route display info being tied into the Hop machine – does give pause for thought. You really do want to get onto the right bus….
Van der Putten said the AT HOP card equipment does not only scan for payment but allows buses to show what route they are operating on.
“Without basic information like bus routes being displayed on buses, it will be very hard for our customers to navigate the bus network next week, including for school students travelling on both school buses and scheduled AT services.”
However, it looks as though it may be a bit hit-and-miss – as to whether you get a free ride or not.
First Union organiser Hayley Courtney said approximately 700 drivers will take part in the action across both unions.
“I’m not sure of the number of routes or the routes exactly but if you want a free ride, just ask the driver if they’re a union member.”
Thanks for the article. Next time I suggest you read past the headline and first few paragraphs quoting National's cherry-pick. There is plenty of info there that sounds reasonable about the spend.
Can't make a judgement call on bookcase and wardrobe, but if the walls they are to fit are 10 m long, that would explain the costings.
If anyone wishes to educate themselves about the Sovreign Citizen movement, Münecat deep-dives SovCits around the world. A well-researched, comprehensive explanation of the wads of paperwork they wave around. As usual, 1.5x speed gets you through it faster. Spoiler: it boils down to grifters preying on unsure people in a scary world.
David Seymour continues the right-wing grandstanding on crime.
Today he is calling for harsher sentencing for crimes against work places
So is he saying that crimes in workplaces are more serious than crimes in people's homes?
I bet people who suffer home invasions wouldn't agree with him.
It just shows even more plainly that Seymour doesn't really have a clue about how to really address crime, he thinks he can easily solve it by inserting a few words into a government bill.
ACT clearly think that government is an easy glamorous job. Jacinda would chuckle at their naivety.
AFAICS in the article – there is no mention of relative sentences against crimes committed during a home invasion (which is already, I think, an aggravating circumstance)
He's simply talking about making attacking a worker – in their place of employment, carrying out their usual job – an aggravating factor at the time of sentencing.
It's likely to be pretty popular for those who've been seeing local small business workers assaulted, not to mention nurses, ambos and firefighters attacked while they're trying to actually save lives.
The comparison would be with an assault in the street, or in a pub, or at a political rally. Where the assault sentence would not have the additional factor included.
This is more of the same proposal to restrict judges over sentencing that ACT have already signalled in several other areas. So nothing new from them.
I am less confident that ACT are, that they can actually influence judicial sentencing- but perhaps they have a plan if they are in government next year….
It just shows even more plainly that Seymour doesn’t really have a clue about how to really address crime, he thinks he can easily solve it by inserting a few words into a government bill.
Nope, Seymour, Luxon, and NACT don’t want to solve crime. They are cynically manipulating opinion to win votes and the Treasury benches. Just look at their policies, mostly not or poorly costed (what’s $1.5B aanyway?), because they don’t give a toss.
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Exactly where are we seriously going with this government and its policies? That is, apart from following what may as well be a Truss-Lite approach on the purported economic “plan“, and Victorian-era regression when it comes to social policy.Oh it’ll work this time of course, we’re basically assured, “the ...
Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as “its largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff”. ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its ...
TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:10am on Monday, April 29:Scoop: The children's ward at Rotorua Hospital will be missing a third of its beds as winter hits because Te Whatu Ora halted an upgrade partway through to ...
span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the country’s leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that “corrupt” the nation’s ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra A new Commonwealth Prac Payment will provide students with $319.50 a week when they are on clinical and professional placements. The payment will be means tested and start from July 1 next year, which ...
Asia Pacific Report About 500 people honoured Palestinian journalists in the heart of the New Zealand city of Auckland today for their brave coverage of Israel’s War on Gaza, now in its seventh month with almost 35,000 people killed, mostly women and children. Marking the annual May 3 World Press ...
The Government Communications Security Bureau denies hosting a foreign spying capability flagged by the watchdog, differentiating it from the system recently criticised. ...
RNZ News A group of academic staff at New Zealand’s largest university have expressed concern at the administration’s move to block a protest encampment that was planned to take place on campus calling for support for the rights of Palestinians. This week, the University of Auckland warned that while it ...
Genterwocky After a hard days marching, Sir Doocey calls in at the Village Tavern For a pint of ale and a pork pie. The grim villagers stare at him. “Do not be travelling on the forest road,” warns a crusty old beak. “And why is that, antique peasant?” Grins Sir ...
Political conferences after a party returns to power are usually a chance for some healthy, even unhealthy backslapping. Yet National Party president Sylvia Wood’s address to its mainland representatives on Saturday hardly contained the unalloyed delight that one might have expected following National’s escape from the wilderness of opposition. Yes, ...
Comment: Almost half the world is voting in national elections this year and artificial intelligence is the elephant in the room. There are genuine fears AI-generated or AI-edited deepfakes will potentially manipulate election outcomes not just in the US and UK, but critically in countries such as India. For that ...
Ahead of the reality franchise’s return to New Zealand, allow us to introduce the eight brides and grooms. Chuck on a veil and tie back your man bun, because it’s time to say “I do” to a new season of Married at First Sight NZ. The reality TV “social experiment” ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Norton, Professor in the Practice of Higher Education Policy, Australian National University Every year on June 1, student debt in Australia is indexed to inflation. In 2023, high inflation pushed the indexation rate to 7.1%, the highest since 1990. This ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Changes in the May 14 budget will cut the student debt of more than three million people, wiping more than $3 billion from what people owe. The government will cap the HELP indexation rate ...
Asia Pacific Report The prosecutor’s office at the International Criminal Court (ICC) has appealed for an end to what it calls intimidation of its staff, saying such threats could constitute an offence against the “administration of justice” by the world’s permanent war crimes court. The Hague-based office of ICC Prosecutor ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk A women’s union in New Caledonia has staged a sit-in protest this week to support senior Kanak indigenous journalist Thérèse Waia, who works for public broadcaster Nouvelle-Calédonie la Première, after a smear attack by critics. The peaceful demonstration was held on ...
New Zealand Food Safety is monitoring overseas recalls of Indian packaged spice products manufactured by MDH and Everest due to concerns over a cancer-causing pesticide. ...
By Stephen Wright and Stefan Armbruster of BenarNews Fiji’s ranking in a global press freedom index has jumped into the top tier of countries with free or mostly free media after its government last year repealed a draconian law that threatened journalists with prison for doing their jobs. Fiji’s improvement ...
We might be in Invercargill but all anyone can talk about is Gore. Specifically, Salford Street. That’s where three-year-old Lachlan Jones lived, south of the centre of town, between the A&P Showgrounds and the Mataura River. Roughly 1.2 km away from the single level home he lived in with his ...
MONDAY I lined up the latest round of civil servants from city hall against the wall, and signalled for the firing squad to drop their rifles. I stepped up onto a wooden crate to look at the office workers in the eye. But that didn’t feel right, so I found ...
Keen hiker and second-year MSc student Liam Hewson wears two hats when he’s in the great outdoors. “The scientist in me appreciates nature and goes, ‘Oh, there’s that thing and there’s another thing,’ but then the tramper and the outdoorsy person in me thinks, ‘Cool bush.’” Born and bred in ...
After a long and illustrious career as a goal kicker, Dan Carter’s favourite way to unwind is… kicking goals. Why can’t he get enough of it? And what it’s like to watch him do it for an hour straight? A semicircle of people wielding cameras and phones has formed in ...
Dame Susan Devoy takes us through her life in television, including late night ER debriefs, her proudest CTI moment and the show she watches in secret. Quite aside from her four world champion squash titles, Dame Susan Devoy will likely go down in history as one of the best Celebrity ...
Hera Lindsay Bird reveals the best places in Ōtepoti to score more for your apocalypse-prep book hoard.Sometimes I get the feeling I’ve been killed in a car crash, and this second half of my life is just the brain unspooling itself, like one of those episodes of a hospital ...
ThreeNow’s new murder mystery series takes us on a dark, damp journey into the Australian wilderness.This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. High Country is ThreeNow’s new Australian eight-part crime drama, set in a remote part of the Victorian highlands. It tells ...
Introducing a new way to read The Spinoff every weekend. After nearly 10 years of being an online magazine, we’re finally embracing the weekend liftout. Despite our best efforts to convince you otherwise, writers and editors at The Spinoff don’t work weekend. It is through the sheer power of technology ...
Tip one: let yourself be nurtured by this big old man. Tip two: don’t ask him to adopt you. So, you’ve arrived at your first session with a new therapist. He tells you to make yourself comfortable and you opt for the tweed armchair, hoping it makes you look like ...
I didn’t know books could open you back up; that there were books that stayed with you, where reading was like a chemical event. I knew nothing.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.Not too long ago, I was listening to the American ...
Former Olympic swimmer James Magnussen has already started training for the Enhanced games, though says he won’t start taking performance enhancing substances until about nine months out from the competition. The Australian world champion was the first athlete to be announced by Enhanced, but he says the organisation has had ...
Everyone thinks he’s dead. Every day they expect his body to be washed up along the coast. Most likely up Karitane way, the way the tide’s running. But nobody’ll be too surprised if his body’s never found. Even in death he wouldn’t have wished for such attention. He would have ...
Council members voted 21 to 4 in favour of Ahluwalia returning to the Laucala campus following a much-awaited meeting in Vanuatu this week. It comes as USP and its two unions — the Association of the University of the South Pacific Staff (AUSPS) and the Administration and Support Staff Union ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicola Henry, Professor & Australian Research Council Future Fellow, Social and Global Studies Centre, RMIT University Shutterstock Following an emergency meeting of the National Cabinet this week, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced a raft of measures to tackle the problem ...
Analysis - A poll showing the opposition is more popular than the government raises questions, politicians go through their 'trial by pay rise' and a Green MP loses her cool in the debating chamber. ...
The entire stretch of Tokomaru Bay on the East Coast will be subject to a joint customary marine title for two hapū, and extending up to four miles out to sea. A High Court judge has found the two groups, who during the case settled a dispute over boundaries for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Hall, Lecturer, Media & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University A longstanding feud between TikTok and Universal Music Group seems to have finally reached an end, with both parties signing a deal that will see Universal-backed music returned to the social media ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Siobhan O’Dean, Postdoctoral Research Associate, The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use, University of Sydney After several highly publicised alleged murders of women in Australia, the Albanese government this week pledged more than A$925 million over five years ...
Political parties have now fully disclosed the donations they received last year - with National getting more than double the cash of any other party. ...
A Pacific regionalism expert has called out New Zealand's Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters for withholding information from the public on AUKUS military pact. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard de Grijs, Professor of Astrophysics, Macquarie University Bruno Scramgnon/Pexels All systems are “go” for tonight’s launch of China’s next step in a carefully planned lunar exploration program. Placed on top of a powerful Long March 5 rocket, the Chang’e 6 ...
National returned a massive donation the day after a Newsroom story linked the donors to a property being investigated for operating unlawfully as a migrant workers’ hostel. The party’s 2023 donation filings, released on Friday, show it returned a $200,000 donation from Buen Holdings on August 23. That was the ...
Pacific Media Watch New Zealand has slumped to an unprecedented 19th place in the annual Reporters Without Borders World Press Freedom Index survey released today on World Press Freedom Day — May 3. This was a drop of six places from 13th last year when it slipped out of its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Joshua Black, Political Historian and Administrator Officer, Australian Historical Association, Australian National University Australia has had its fair share of public record-keeping controversies in recent years. Some have been mere farce, as in the case of two formerly government-owned filing cabinets (containing ...
Heavenly Culture, World Peace, Restoration of Light (HWPL), a United Nations-affiliated organization dedicated to fostering peace through civilian-led initiatives, has issued a statement in response to the escalating conflict between Israel and Iran. ...
A poem by Tessa Keenan, from AUP New Poets 10. Mātou These days we are a photograph; one of a farm strewn with cows that used to be bright harakeke or swamp. The kids point at it and say the sun sits behind a smudge (left by someone at Christmas); ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan (Faber & Faber, $25)The masterful Irish writer ...
Marriage and civil union statistics record the number of marriages and civil unions registered in New Zealand each year, and divorce statistics record the number of divorces granted in New Zealand each year. Key facts Marriages and civil unions In ...
Marriage and civil union statistics record the number of marriages and civil unions registered in New Zealand each year, and divorce statistics record the number of divorces granted in New Zealand each year. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lennon Y.C. Chang, Associate Professor of Cyber Risk and Policy, Deakin University Taiwan stands out as a beacon of democracy, innovation and resilience in an increasingly autocratic region. But this is under growing threat. In recent years, China has used a variety ...
In this excerpt from her new memoir, Dame Susan Devoy remembers her turn as star contestant on the 2022 season of Celebrity Treasure Island. The most anxious time of every day was pre-elimination, when you knew this could be your final day on the show. I felt such contradictory emotions, ...
A week that began in triumph ended in an all-too-familiar disaster for the Green Party. Duncan Greive asks if there’s something in the mission that breaks its best and brightest. A long, strange week for the Green party began with a fantastic poll result. On one level this is hardly ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Vanuatu’s former prime minister and opposition MP Ishmael Kalsakau has stepped down — just two days after he confirmed he was the rightful opposition leader. Kalsakau, MP for Port Vila, confirmed to ABC’s Pacific Beat, and the Vanuatu Daily Post on Thursday that he ...
What’s to blame for the coalition’s choppy start? Six months in, and the mojo meter is in the doldrums. A new poll would put National out of power and sees its leader, Chris Luxon, sliding in popularity. How much is it about policy, how much coalition management and a perception ...
The striking report goes far beyond the proposed repeal of the Oranga Tamariki Act’s Treaty of Waitangi provision, and its impact should be felt far beyond the unique circumstances of the claim it addresses. Earlier this week, the Waitangi Tribunal released an interim report on the government’s proposed repeal of ...
The world has been experiencing a productivity slowdown, from which New Zealand has not been exempt. COVID-19 temporarily boosted labour productivity, but more recently, productivity has retreated. The overall trend since 2007 has been one of slow productivity ...
What’s more wasteful than spending $315k on syrup and machine maintenance? Trying to drum up a controversy about it.Cast your mind back to the pre-pandemic idylls of 2019. A “rat” was a disgusting rodent and not a self-administered plague test; the sixth Labour government was in power; and the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Fitz-Gibbon, Professor of Social Sciences, Faculty of Arts, Monash University, Monash University Ken stocker/Shutterstock In the wake of numerous killings of women allegedly by men’s violence in 2024, thousands of Australians have joined rallies across the country to demand action ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Henry Cutler, Professor and Director, Macquarie University Centre for the Health Economy, Macquarie University Oleg Ivanov IL/Shutterstock Waiting times for public hospital elective surgery have been in the news ahead of this year’s federal budget. That’s the type of non-emergency surgery ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Konstantine Panegyres, McKenzie Postdoctoral Fellow, Historical and Philosophical Studies, The University of Melbourne Amna Artist/Shutterstock One of the earliest descriptions of someone with cancer comes from the fourth century BC. Satyrus, tyrant of the city of Heracleia on the Black Sea, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Rose, Professor of Sustainable Future Transport, University of Sydney LanaElcova/Shutterstock Electric vehicles are often seen as the panacea to cutting emissions – and air pollution – from transport. Is this view correct? Yes – but only once uptake accelerates. Despite the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Giselle Natassia Woodley, Researcher and Phd Candidate, Edith Cowan University There is widespread agreement Australia needs to do better when it comes to gender-based violence. Anger and frustration at the numbers of women being killed saw national rallies over the weekend and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Graham, Lecturer in Economics, University of Sydney Mark and Anna Photography/Shutterstock As home ownership moves further out of reach for many Australians, “rentvesting” is being touted as a lifesaver. Rentvesting is the practice of renting one property to live ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sukhmani Khorana, Associate Professor, Faculty of Arts, Design and Architecture, UNSW Sydney Netflix The new season of Heartbreak High is garnering mixed reviews. Critics are writing about the racy story lines, comparing it to other coming-of-age series about teenage relationships and ...
Bob Carr intends to launch legal action against Winston Peters and Julie Anne Genter is facing a second allegation of bullying. Both sucked the air out of an announcement on education, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in ...
So here's the guts:
The PM has lost his mana and is now only marginally ahead of Luxon. Two thirds of the respondents reckon Aotearoa is going the wrong way, only a fifth think it's on track. The other 13% either believe its going sideways or deemed the question too hard.
Anyone who can cook up a left-wing win scenario out of this public sentiment are pushing shit up-hill…
Luxon on Hipkins: “He’s just being politically expedient and going to say and do anything in order to win an election.”
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labours-chris-hipkins-eyes-up-new-tax-policy-as-poll-struggles-bite-warns-to-expect-restraint-after-ruling-out-wealth-tax-capital-gains-tax/JQ2DUV345RHDDKNVS6C4TI3Y5E/
See that straight-talking stance he's got going there: tell it like it is. It will be expedient to attract floating voters back to Labour after having alienated them. It will also be unlikely. Boomers will need a substantial bribe, so we could expect Grant to pull a magic rabbit out of his financial hat: rob the poor to pay the rich! Classic neoliberalism.
The PM will be happy with that, knowing that he's out-Luxing Luxon. Labour will leap up & down with excitement, seeing that they will continue to represent the middle class.
The Herald poll bar graph in primary colours displays a precise electorate triad: left/right/neither all rating a third each!
Stunning revelation from Britain's Conservative govt:
The Financial Times was impressed to see this announcement to the media. I expect most of their media would have agreed with him that they did indeed know that.
However there would inevitably be some who would wonder, knowing that any statement from the Conservatives was probably untrue.
I suspect their media also contains hard-core sceptics operating from down their personal rabbit-hole – immediately realising that the official denial meant the govt really was Amazon. These folk would jump onto the internet to spread the word…
It's probably tough to show sufficient gratitude when you're being invaded by rapists, murderers, and washing machine thieves.
UN report October 2022:
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-AUV-EN.pdf
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/how-russian-soldiers-terrorise-ukraine-sexual-violence/
Three's political editor has a farming tail wagging Labour dog theory:
So Hipkins believes dairy farmers vote Labour & freaked out about the wealth tax, realising it would force them to vote National. I'm impressed. Such laser-like political logic would have been way over the heads of most Labourites, I'd have thought.
Heaps of farms are held in trusts as well, there's no doubt it would be problematic to levy a fairly significant tax on what is productive sector in terms of export dollars.
It's the unproductive stuff we need to figure out how to capture and ideally make things like housing far less of an attractive short term investment vehicle.
Ghost houses and air bnbs would be a good start for taxing the fuck out of
That's my view too…..but it needs work and finesse.
Easier just to say everyone is wealthy and tax them.
Even with a sarc tag this would be a disingenuous comment. There is nothing ‘easy’ about the Greens’ Tax Policy, for example. Your disagreeing views are starting to straddle into obnoxious resistance.
If you wish to have a grown-up conversation about increasing tax (https://thestandard.org.nz/hipkins-tax-gamble/#comment-1959509) you’ll need to start acting like one.
Sorry for leaving off the sarcasm tag. I did mean it sarcastically.
I am entitled to my views. if I want to express them sarcastically then I will. I happen to think that the Treasury and IRD work on high net work individuals is better. That is not resisting just saying someone else got some thing 'more righter' (sic)
I have been putting forward other ideas that I hope will be looked at & will have a better chance of success. High net worth people should pay their share and if other taxes are slotted in at home sale or death waypoints those of us less financially endowed can too.
The Green party wealth tax failed in my view
1it included the family home
2 if they were to include the family home the point at which the tax came about needed to be much higher.
3 I still find the inclusion of KS problematic bearing in mind that those who took it out were probably responding to Govt signals that govt funded national Super may not be affordable in the long term,
and
it makes economic sense to do this.
NB in its work looking at high net worth individuals the figures discounted the value of the family home. That seems a fairly good sign to me that those investigating this had a pretty good understanding of the psyche of NZers as far as aspiring to buy/live in our own piece of dirt.
While I am glad that the wealth tax idea was knocked out there are still good policies in the Greens manifesto for those of us wanting to opt for the Labour/Greens combo.
And again, you misread the comment or chose to ignore the part(s) that you dislike. This is becoming an issue in discussions on this topic but I’m also starting to wonder more about your contributions to other discussion threads on other controversial topics here on TS. Note that my concern doesn’t relate to disagreeing opinion, counter-arguments, or discerning voice but to pattern behaviours that are not conducive to robust grown-up constructive debate. I refer to Lprent’s recent comments for further context.
Your comment was disingenuous, with or without sarc tag.
Everybody is free to put forward their views & opinions here. In fact, we welcome & encourage this in the expectation that it generates robust debate. People who have no arguments (left) sometime resort to disingenuous comments and this can turn into obnoxious behaviour.
The Wealth Tax proposals would affect approximately 0.5 to 0.7% of people, give or take, depending on the proposal. This is miles off being “everyone’, as you sarcastically implied.
Several times you have deflected & diverted to the example of those 311 of the wealthiest families in NZ that generally have a net worth of more than $50M. It is disingenuous to suggest that tax policy should focus or target on only those families when it is the findings of this research that underpins much of the WT proposals. I note that these are families, not individuals, so you are comparing apples & oranges, again.
Citation needed. It’s irrelevant anyway for the purpose of that research.
“NB in its work looking at high net worth individuals the figures discounted the value of the family home.
Citation needed. It’s irrelevant anyway for the purpose of that research.”
I have already linked to this today.
The figures that are covered in this is 25,000 people with assets of over $5M. It excludes the family home and could raise $3.8billion pa by 2025.
So even considering the wealth of these 25,000 the regulators feel that including the family home is not on. They may be more in tune with the known psyche/social/historic relationship that Kiwis have with home ownership.
Looking at those who owned more than one property ie excluding the family home, may include some of the ones already caught in the Treasury figures. It gives an idea of where to look now, possibly, if there is a correlation between owning more than one property and ghost or empty houses. Taxing empty houses may be worth looking at.
These are the world-wide figures for home ownership.
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/home-ownership-rate
Even noting that home ownership rates have fallen in NZ, it is still a majority.
I feel we need to work so all have the chance to home ownership. This should not be taxed.
Or have a rental market that is stable, possibly including more institutional investors, so people can rent for long periods of time and have stability. They have the option then of home ownership or renting without being at the whim of a private LL who may want to cash up.
https://www.localgov.co.uk/How-institutional-investors-can-boost-the-UKs-private-rented-sector/55713
That might be the case, but not under this Post and not in this discussion thread, AFAIK.
In this thread @ 4.1.1.1.1.1 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-07-2023/#comment-1959559) above, your wrote :
And in this thread @ 4.1.2 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-07-2023/#comment-1959561) below, you were referring & linking to the IRD research.
So, I mistook it as the IRD study, my bad.
I assume you’ve read those Budget papers released by Treasury and you’ve seen that Treasury advised against the exemption of the family home with some strong arguments.
The irony of your irrational resistance to including the family home in a Wealth Tax, which would only affect 0.5 or 0.7% of people, i.e., the wealthiest of all, is that it could increase inequity and move home ownership further out of reach for more Kiwis.
Including the family home in a WT is not a disincentive for home ownership, not even for those wealthy individuals. It is a fact that Capital Gains are a major source of un-taxed wealth in NZ. To wean off Kiwis from investing or speculating in property, including the family home, and instead investing in productive enterprises is something I do advocate unlike you, it seems.
I won’t even go into the effects of your stance on inter-generational wealth transfer among the well-offs by exempting the family home.
The absolute majority of home owners in NZ would not be affected by a WT under the proposals that we have seen. Your resistance is based on fear and thus is irrational.
If you are worth $2+M then you can afford to pay a WT. End of.
How does this lift everyone out of poverty?
The GP budgeted for $15.48B in 2024/2025 via a wealth tax, tax on trusts, and a change in companies tax rate.
That's what was needed to lift people out of poverty. Your figures are designed for an approach that lifts some people out of poverty and leaves the rest behind. That's horrible.
why is including the family home a problem?
Houses always cost money – rates, repairs, maintenance, insurance.
Homes used as the owner's residence don't generate income, and will still require money even when paid off.
The wealth tax is a poor substitute for a more efficient income and corporate tax system.
that doesn't adequately explain why a personal home should be excluded from a wealth tax.
Houses always cost money and yet people with over $2m are making far more in capital gains than it costs to maintain a house.
Houses do generate income, via capital gains. It's not weekly income but it is untaxed wealth accrual that most definitely people benefit from compared to people who don't own a home or who do but have assets less than $2m.
"Houses do generate income, via capital gains. "
That's incorrect. Unrealised capital gains on residences is not income.
Many make the assumption that capital gains is guaranteed. Many home owners buy where they can afford or where it meets their life priorities (ie. close to family), and not necessarily in places with high capital gains.
Primarily, the current way of thinking about this issue is this:
Right, let's look at property prices in Auckland over the last ten years:
https://www.opespartners.co.nz/property-markets/auckland
Median price now: $995,000 Median price 2013: $570,000
That's an increase of $42,500 a year, or $425,000 over the ten year period. But there are costs associated with home ownership.
(Used this interest rate calculator)
Assume a 4% return over ten years monthly interest calc:
10% – $57,000 – $27,977.46 20% – $114,000 – $55,954.93
So the deposit alone will have lost earnings over this ten year period.
Best case scenario, if the house was purchased with cash, using the same interest rates the loss in interest is;
$570,000 – $279,774.63
While the capital value of the house has increased, the material depreciation would have decreased unless money has been spent on maintaining the property to the standard in which it was purchased.
A conservative estimate for house maintenance is 1% of the house value annually;
https://www.wisemove.co.nz/post/how-much-should-you-spend-on-home-maintenance-each-year.
For simplicity I'll use only the purchase price rather than increase the value each year. Using the same calculator parameters, but with a yearly compound interest:
$5,700/year – over ten years with lost interest – $76,872.20
Not yet calculated is other associated costs such as insurance, and rates.
Using low 2023 rates of $2,400 to adjust for the fact they are not 2013 rates,
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability/127986739/auckland-rates-some-of-citys-poorest-suburbs-hardest-hit-by-rates-increases.
and an estimate of $200/month for home insurance will bring the annual rates and insurance bill to $4,800.
Put this into the interest calculator as above and:
After 10 years the cumulative cost is: $64,734.49
So, this is a best case scenario, that assumes no borrowing from the banks, but takes into account conservative lost interest.
It also assumes no material improvements in the property:
$279,774.63 Full purchase price lost interest
$ 76,872.20 Maintenance 1% incl lost interest
$ 64,734.49 Rates & Insurance incl lost interest
$421,381.32 Cost of owning home purchased for cash over 10yrs
Which is not far off the increase in capital value: $425,000
In essence, the "income" you refer to comes in @ $3,618.68 over ten years, or $361.87yr.
If a mortgage is involved, you can see how this creates a deficit for home owners in terms of financial benefits.
I would say that many average homeowners who live in their own homes, are paying out more for that decision than they are receiving in capital gains. The above calculation may indicate why. Many of those with a mortgage pay more for their housing than they would pay in a similar rental.
Let's not also forget that the hope is that housing prices decrease for all, and some have had significant losses in their investments recently:
"Currently, Auckland house prices have fallen 23.17% from the peak of the market in Nov 2021 through to May 2023."
https://www.opespartners.co.nz/property-markets/auckland
I hope that gives some indication of why I believe that treating capital gains as income – when there is no income – is an ill considered approach.
You lost me already.
"You lost me already.
Not minus, a obviously confusingly placed hyphen – referring to the usual deposits of either 10% or 20% of the purchase price, so:
Therefore, "10% – $57,000 – $27,977.46"
meant 10% deposit = $57,000 which if placed in a 4% (I took it as 5% with 1% going to IRD) compounding interest account would have generated $27,977.46 in interest over the ten year period.
Homes are homes not $$$$$ making ventures to bring in money.
Family homes provide stable places to live, bring up a family, stay in a community and be able to contribute to it.
People who own more that one home are looking at the $$$ side or it may be an extension to the family home concept in having a bach or crib (though I don't find that very persuasive)
Renting in NZ can be fraught with non professional or non institutional landlords leading to many people not having the ability to stay in one suburb (schooling etc) let alone one place.
I linked to a paper about the UKs housing and the need to provide more renting accomodation and this discusses focussing on instituinal investment
https://www.localgov.co.uk/How-institutional-investors-can-boost-the-UKs-private-rented-sector/55713
I have not searched very deeply for articles on the benefits of home ownership but here is one from the US
https://www.fortunebuilders.com/benefits-of-homeownership/
NZ has had a long social history of citizens being encouraged to own their own homes/properties including
1 legislative action over the years ranging from the breaking up of the great estates in the 1890s (when parts of NZ were on track to becoming little Englands with a built in tenant/landlord class and a farm owner/farm labourer class.
2 Home ownership was felt to be a just reward to be offered to returned soldiers after both WW1 & WW2 (particularly) Some times loans, some times sections/houses.
3 through to the Govt selling sections, houses, offering home loans, offering topped up savings schemes for deposits through the old NZ Post. Needless to say this all came to a grinding halt with the neo-libs. "not the role of Govt to encourage the flow of money anywhere other than the market' etc etc plus other rubbish
I agree. Let's remove the capital gains from all housing. Great solution.
Weka, Please see Molly's thoughtful response on this topic immediately above.
16 July 2023 at 2:28 pm
This to me has an impact like the story about little boy and the Emperor without clothes. Calls it like it is.
I must say this is one of the first that I have read that actually looks at what is proposed without name calling, 'misunderstanding' saying people don't understand links, connections and is short on rhetoric (this is a good thing)
Then read mine about the history of encouragment to buy a family home here in NZ that has been a feature since the 1890s at least and probably before that under the various provincial govts.
Then reflect on why the proposal to include the family home, at the least, made it doomed to failiure once it got out into the electorate. There are other oddities.
I feel this odd and ill thought out policy 'queered the pitch' and 'frightened the horses' so much that Hipkins has needed to squash speculation. In doing so he has had to rule out (again) the one that Treasury had been working on that had a higher assets limit $5m, did not include the family home.
This report was referred to by DF here.
13 July 2023 at 8:59 am
I think we are well rid of the threat of this policy and it opens the door to a mature discussion on 'what is wealth?' cf The Greens say $2m and The Treasury said $5m. Knowing that The Treasury had access to much more quality information from other Govt depts and seemingly a better handle on what IRD/The Treasury called 'wealth' the higher figure is more like it. Productive industries like farms and factories though could easily top the $5m mark.
As Harman says…….'endless complexities in trying to introduce the tax and doubted it would achieve the revenue gains the Government hoped'.
So let us turn our minds to other ways to alleviate poverty, to make sure our overall taxation is fair and that it generates enough to meet all the policies of Govt including alleviating poverty. The Greens policy was silent on
Yes why were farms/productive units included?
The paper on high net worth is much more nuanced in saying that the high net worth individuals were wealthy but this was often from running productive units….business, farming ect.
https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/home/documents/about-us/high-wealth-research-project/hwi-research-project/factsheets-supporting-hwi-report/tax-and-the-economic-income-of-the-wealthy.pdf?modified=20230420234159
I think there is possibly a case to be made about farms, but the problem is farms have also had massive property capital gains in the past few decades and that is wealth. Some farmers can sell their farms and never work again. Other farms have huge debt because they believed that industrial dairy was the way to go. They won't be paying the wealth tax but the farmers in between might struggle.
What is the fixation about capital gains?
Some of these farmers work really hard with living expenses being funded via a current account through the year and paid off after wool/meat/sales and only being able to pay themselves for 40 or 50 years of hard work after the property is sold. Even then many leave money in and don't get the full amount, forgiving any debts at death. Wage and salary earners usually get more than just their living expenses met.
I think many people seem to have some odd ideas about what and how other people live.
My opinion is that the Greens wealth tax lost it once the family home was included. It might have been less controversial had the family home been excluded.
Ok, so you clearly don't understand the political argument around poverty and the wealth gap.
Capital gains on housing is a large part of why many people live in poverty. The increases in the property market drove up house prices and rents. Some people did very well out of that, and many people can no longer afford to feed and raise their kids.
Labour's response is to raise wages, and they've done a good job on raising the minimum wage. But that hasn't kept up with the housing costs. They've also raised some benefits, but again, it's not kept up with housing costs and never can. This is a political choice to leave a lot of people living in poverty.
Some possible solutions:
kept up with housing costs should be caught up with housing costs.
Pity responses are more and more being phrased like this rather than acknowledging that the questioner did understand poverty/wealth conundrum but has disagreed with The Greens suggested solution.
In saying this you are using the great TINA (there is no other alternative) principle that in a quality debate gets you nowhere. If the policy got anywhere near The Treasury, Treasury would sniff out a TINA policy from a 1000 paces.
Because there are other alternatives – The Greens had chosen the wealth tax. And no-one seemed to know why, at least not on here.
"My opinion is that the Greens wealth tax lost it once the family home was included. It might have been less controversial had the family home been excluded."
The wealth tax is a strange beast anyway, but I addressed some of the issues regarding capital gains on the home as income here:
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-07-2023/#comment-1960028
Great post Molly. Thank you.
All good. I tried to be as conservative as possible, and it assumes perhaps a fairly high interest rate (I took it as 5% with 1% going to IRD), but it is also very low on maintenance estimates etc, so I think it balances out.
As soon as you've taken a loan out for the mortgage, the costs grow quite significantly, and given that most people with a mortgage pay more to service it than renters – it shows clearly the problem with assuming capital gains leads to material benefits for home owners.
Interestingly, if I had invested the equivalent value of $570,000 in these particular Lego Sets
in 2013, (notwithstanding how that bulk investment would affect the value), the purchase price of that median Auckland house would now be worth: $7,735,812
https://www.brickeconomy.com/set/66488-1/lego-hero-factory-ultimate-evo
Yikes!
Jenna Lynch's opinion is not something I would hang my hat on.
18 to 24 year olds.
Est eligible to vote : 418831
Per cent enrolled : 59.71 %
Labour and Greens MUST get them to vote. Crucial.
Labour…all those Tradie apprentices you helped !
Greens…Climate and all !
Labour and Green get moving !
Labour and Greens MUST get them to vote. Crucial.
That was posted to this site several times last election, and probably the one before that too. The usual response of the people: doan wanna.
That's the amusing thing about the Greens' tax strategy – those most likely to benefit matches those least likely to vote. I suspect the Greens do actually know that, and are yielding to the traditional socialist stance out of their inner need to signal that virtue.
Feeling good defeats political logic. Morally righteous defeats success. But hey, always possible that the electorate could prove me wrong…
Hipkins killed any hope of that yesterday. No really he did. We care deeply about policy unlike the easily conned boomers who fall for every scam and conspiracy online, we see through political bullshit.
We are renters ffs. We want a capital gains tax and to sock it to the rich.
He basically told every zoomer and millennial to go fuck ourselves because none of the policies we care about in housing or tax will ever happen under him, he basically told us it doesn't matter left wing party you vote for, it ain't happening, "end of story"
Get rid of that muppet.
That budget he canned would have labour polling in the fucking 40s for a few weeks.
No political instincts, no charisma, no spine and he takes weeks and weeks to make decisions about his errant ministers.
I am on your side Corey about renting and not home ownership for your generation. Two step children and I am really not sure how they will manage. We give them as much help as we can.
But I have to object to your potrayal of boomers who 'fall for every scam and consipiracy theory on line". Where's your evidence for this? It didn't look to me like there were a whole lot of boomers at parliament (the protest) and as far as I know most boomers got the covid jab.
Having read the piece that Denis put up earlier (the interview with Sir Geoffry Palmer) I was reminded how in my childhood we would never lock our doors. What has changed? Don't know. I was a working class kid and was housed cause of the state house building programme. The conditions we lived in would be considered overcrowding now.
The solution to the housing crisis that is most likely to work is to flood the market with housing. Labour have been unable to do it.
But sincerely, I do feel for your genderation.
So roll Chippy, put Grant in for the election and give something new groundbreaking and positive a real shot?
Perhaps better than going down as National lite and continuing to have little or nothing to show from the Ardern years in terms of significant change to inequality.
Plus first openly gay PM and with plenty of experience on how to do the job.
Whatdya reckon?
bwhahahahahahah
yeah, nah nah. Might as well put any of the other diversity picks up.
The problem is not the person announcing the policies, the problem are the policies.
That’s a very casual dismissal of Grant as a ‘diversity pick up.’ If he wasn’t gay, I’d suggest he’d have been a shoo in as leader much earlier in the piece.
And the policies are exactly my point. Clearly there has been a movement in Labour to address inequality and Hipkins has made it a no go.
It would be a chance to front tax reform already prepared for by the revenue minister.
The quote here was a wealth tax was over 50% popular. If that’s true don’t be out of step with the other countries.
Otherwise the gap between Chippy and Steven Joyce begins to look less than that between him and his party.
"If he wasn’t gay, I’d suggest he’d have been a shoo in as leader much earlier in the piece."
Do you ascribe this supposed homophobia to the internal workings of the Labour Party, or are you suggesting it exists in large quantities in voters?
I don't think G.R has any support from the public other then those that reflexively vote Labour.
Put G.R in the leader spot and i am taking bets that Labour could fall below Cunliffe efforts2014, Labour got about 25.1 %? And god only knows how low Andrew Little polled when they pushed J.A to the spot of leadership in order to win an election.
Chippie is the best atm i think they have, and he is about as exiting as is stale white toast. Untoasted.
Got it in one Sabine.
Neither of you read the comment- clearly with Minister Parker’s report there’s been preparation for some redistributive tax and support within Labour for that. That would be the basis for proposing the new leader. To potentially follow through on a core policy.
and @Jack you ever watch Key in the house?
Grant can be an effective communicator, but has been inside treasury and not thinking outside of Wellington. Remember him standing out on that pub politics show waaay back with Wallace Chapman.
You kidding right? Grant is an even bigger turn-off. You only need to look at his performances in the house – smarmy, conceited, loud mouth.
But it does open an interesting question. Who will be the Labour leader come Christmas. Certainly won’t be anyone in the current cabinet.
Grant to me looks like he is ready to sign out. Just my opinion, but we are not seeing much of him of late and he is not standing for Wellington Central and going to be a list MP. Bets on that if Labour loses he will walk
Just one little problem with your suggestion.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483137/grant-robertson-explains-why-he-didn-t-run-to-be-prime-minister
He stood aside last time. This might be choosing to cement a certain legacy or leave with only having furthered inequality.
Is he leaving politics after the GE??
Could still do that after winning one with a wealth tax if he wanted.
I agree, Grant is funny, articulate and Grant could have been a Keating rather than a Gordon Brown.
Better than the muppet they chose!
Guess I was seeing the possibility of it as a Barristan Selmy or Jora Thormont type mission. Among which Labour finance ministers does he want to be remembered? It’s all a lot of faff, but so is getting into politics.
He and David Parker have already suggested they disagreed with Hipkins, or at least Hipkins says it was his decision. Enough of these captain’s calls. We’re not a presidency. They only work if his whole team, many of whom won’t be back, support his stance. He can’t say it’s a captain’s call unless the whole team goes along with it in a parliamentary democracy.
It’s not captains at the toss at Lord’s.
When considering National's boot camp idea, I think it is very important to consider the specifics of the proposed program before making broad judgements.
I checked with Chat GPT about the effectiveness of boot camps. It came back and said that the evidence is mixed on boot camps that focus on physical exercise etc, and that there isn't much evidence that they are any more effective than other interventions.
But then I asked, what if the focus is on addressing education and drug addiction issues and social support is provided for youth when they return to the community. (as is the case with National's proposal). Here is its response below:
This response is very much in line with my understanding of the situation. So, if a program has these elements, then it is far more likely to be successful than the traditional boot camp model.
Interesting response from Chat GPT.
I agree with what you follow it up with, but especially your paragraph here:
"That said, the specifics of implementation matter a great deal. Not all programs are created equal, and it's important for programs to be based on solid research, well-implemented, and regularly evaluated for effectiveness. It's also important to consider the specific characteristics and needs of the individual youth, as different interventions may be more or less effective for different individuals."
So collective web wisdom is that boot camps suck but investing money into proper rehabilitation and social services work…
Which party do you think will actually do the stuff known to work? And which one will throw kids into an army camp, talk about setting up the other stuff and then never actually do it because of stuff….
Well, what the current government is doing certainly doesn't seem to be working.
But, all I have done, is asked Chat GPT about essentially National's policy on this. From the article:
ChatGPT ??? A completely reliable system prone to making shit up. Generally it seems to feed back what the questioner wants. I’d want to look at the exact search statements to determine flaws. But that lack of references tends to indicate that this is likely to be complete bullshit. Ask for pinpoint references and then check them.
However, I’ve seen about 3 or 4 rounds of boot camp type proposals go through so far in the last 40 years. What I always notice is that they are invariably set up on the absolute cheapest possible basis. Their operational costs were a tiny fraction of the cost of (for instance) basic training by the military. Their setup costs were tiny as well.
Certainly the last round of NationalAct ones were. All that have tried to implement were complete failures.
Social support – again expensive and really hard to setup in community. Typically this would take quite some time to set up. And it’d probably have to localised so it’d need to scattered widely. The probability of being able to use existing social services is minimal – they’re overstretched already. This is a whole new country wide program.
Whatever else is used in a boot-camp. To date this has mostly been people shouting. That was cheapish, but completely ineffective.
So until ActNational announces their programme setup and per person budget, it is pointless considering it. I’d bet we never see anything over the next 100 days. To date they have only ever provided day-care levels of funding.
So this is just a corflute slogan policy with a picture of the Luxon dimwit next to it.
A separate question is if the boot-camp idea would be effective at all. I consider that to be highly unlikely as well. In my opinion as a ex-soldier who has done a real boot-camp and as someone who spent a number of years writing military training programs, it is highly unlikely.
There is a reason why our military is so damn picky about who they induct and how they train them. It is a highly expensive operation. Doing a boot-camp for teens who don’t want to be there and who aren’t selected as being trainable is a few orders of magnitude harder and more expensive.
Speaking as a programmer, relying on ChatGPT for research without thoroughly checking the sources of what it produces is the action of a gullible idiot. Ask it for pinpoint reference links and then check them.
Yeah, I would agree with you normally on this. Except, I wasn't just relying only on Chat GPT. I was also relying on a lecture I remember during my Masters years, when we had a lecture from a guy who runs an institution in the US for youth on the verge of serious prison time as a last intervention.
He was saying it was easy to get amazing change while the youth were in the institution, but the changes evaporated once the youth returned to their communities. So, they had to do a lot of community intervention and provide a lot of community support to get the changes to stick more reliably.
Therefore, so far as National's plan goes, I agree with it in principle. But, whether it will be done well enough is another matter. These sort of interventions are incredibly expensive. So, if the community side of the intervention is only at a superficial level, then I doubt it will work.
I posted about the Limited Service Volunteer programme below, and one aspect that does seem to be positive is that IF a volunteer does go on to enlist, they have a fully functioning community around them from that point on, that allows them to make changes.
Providing a supportive environment post intervention is the most difficult part of supporting change.
And, I just asked Chat GPT for supporting studies. Here was the result:
Absolutely, here are a few studies and reports as of my knowledge cut-off in September 2021, related to the points mentioned:
Remember, ongoing research in this area may provide newer insights, so it's always good practice to look for the most recent studies on the topic. Also, these studies provide evidence based on large populations and may not apply equally to every individual case. Interventions should always be tailored to individual needs and circumstances.
[This is not good enough. You know that you must provide links to material you quote or cite.
Also, you seem to be new to using ChatGPT and an ignorant tool using an ignorant tool. Lprent has already commented on your ignorance.
Responses from ChatGPT, for example, can sound very compelling & convincing and it is easy to be fooled by this. ChatGPT is also prone to what is called ‘hallucinating’, which means it can generate utter BS.
You are in Pre-Mod until you’ve provided links for your alleged sources and checked them.
You cannot hide behind responses from ChatGPT or any other GPT tool. You write & submit the comments and thus they are yours and your responsibility.
This Mod note is mostly educational & instructional because I suspect the use of GPT and other AI tools will become more common here on TS and people have to be aware of the pitfalls, just as they are about using material sourced from MSM and SM.
In other words, this is not personal but a precedent/reference point for future moderation – Incognito]
Mod note
Fair enough:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR564.html
This study relates to education in correctional facilities rather than boot camps. But the key point is that dealing with educational deficiencies reduces offending.
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2008-00669-004
The second study considered drug interventions in incarcerated communities, including including theraputic communities and boot camps. Positive results in reducing reoffending for theraputic communities. Mixed results for boot camps.
Because National's plan includes remedial education and drug interventions, plus social support, rather than the traditional fitness regime associated with boot camps, I would argue the plan proposed by National is more akin to theraputic communities than boot camps.
http://www.antoniocasella.eu/nume/Andrews_Bonta_Criminal_Justice_Policy_2010.pdf
This study again found that education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments. Although not directly related to boot camps, the similar principles are likely to apply given that in both circumstances, the interventions will apply to confined individuals.
Consequently, I think it is reasonable to argue that any program that includes these elements whether in prison or some other setting where individuals have been confined due to their offending will likely be more effective than merely locking people away or putting them through a fitness regime in the context of a boot camp.
[You made an effort to provide 3/4 links; where’s the 4th link?
The link for the 2nd study goes to an Abstract only; where’s the full study report?
You made an effort to ‘check’ the source material by skimming the key findings and/or abstracts, quite possibly relying on and reiterating what ChatGPT had already generated for you, and I doubt you read those two publications that were 17 pages (13 + 4 pages of references) and 156 pages long, respectively.
For example, where in the study by Andrews and Bonta does it say that “education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments”? It may well be in there somewhere, but the onus is on you to point us to it rather than making us read the whole paper for ourselves (and then coming to a different conclusion).
You don’t seem to be aware that ChatGPT may be intrinsically biased because it is trained on huge volumes of text found on the internet. In addition, you may have increased any bias through your lines of questioning to ChatGPT.
Your selective material, selective quoting, and super-superficial ‘analysis’ suggest that you were simply searching for stuff that confirmed your own bias. You used this as an excuse to spread NACT talking points & propaganda here on TS.
You are trying hard to merge & marry NACT & your apparent preference of boot camps with the findings of those studies when there’s in fact little to no support for this in the material. If I’m incorrect then point to the relevant sections on boot camps in those studies. As far as I can tell, the available evidence in the material you provided is negative re. boot camps and even shows they are counter-productive for the level of recidivism.
You must try harder and you’re wasting other people’s time – Incognito]
Mod note
Hi Incognito.
Very often, abstracts are the best that is available due to publications being in paid subscription journals. So, that is the best I can probably do.
Here is the link I missed. Again an abstract.
For the link below, it is necessary to approach the authors for the full version. So, I am unsure how long it will take to get a response back to that.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232592251_Rehabilitating_Criminal_Justice_Policy_and_Practice
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17991050/
This study found that fifth and six graders improved performance as a result of mentoring.
I disagree with you about relevance. Having read quite a few papers, and written a thesis, it is not unusual to refer to research that in principle should apply in different settings. Sometimes, that is the best that can be done if specific research is not available in that area.
If that were not the case, we would not be conducting medical research on mice and drawing possible implications for humans.
I think it is intuitively obvious that correcting educational gaps, reducing drug addiction, and providing social support would be effective in many settings.
[this is another Mod note for you]
It is the same one as before. The one that is still missing is the one by Shapland and Bottoms.
I’m not asking or expecting you to get the full version from the authors. The issue is that you superficially parade summarised material (abstracts) because it confirms your bias and suits your narrative. Without the all the information & context in a full paper/report all we’re left with is the equivalent of reading headlines or tweets.
That’s lovely but what does this and/or the PubMed link have to do with the Mod notes?
Irrelevant to the Mod notes, as far as I can tell.
Are you comparing youth offenders to lab mice? And boot camps to lab experiments?
I like that! It is intuitively crystal clear that you’re diverting and that you’re wasting more of my precious time – Incognito.
Further to my last comment, that Andrews and Botha paper is actually a very good one, because it suggests that factors such as correcting educational and drug addiction interventions along with social support are necessary for any programs aiming to reduce offending. From that article on page 40:
The article refers to their RNR model as a framework for developing interventions in a wide variety of settings. On page 44 &45:
These are general principles the authors posit should be applied to any program aimed at addressing criminal behaviour in a variety of settings.
And this model is largely met by National's proposed program. In principle at least. Whether that will be implemented effectively is another story.
[You keep on wasting my time with this.
The task at hand is for you to learn the limitations of your uncritical, biased & selective use of ChatGPT to promote NACT talking points & propaganda.
Your task, set by me and with support from other Mods, is not to argue for or defend NACT propaganda but to correct your comments that were missing links and critical commentary by yourself. In other words, ChatGPT sold you lemons and you were and still are trying to sell them off here. But they are now your lemons and you now are the seller, not ChatGPT or whatever or whoever your source was. So, you must take ownership of and responsibility for your comments and be accountable.
This is the basis of robust god-faith debate here on TS and it applies to every commenter.
I’m still waiting for a link + check by you of the 4th article by Shapland and Bottoms. Get on with it because I’m running out of patience and I’ve better things to do.
I also asked you where in the study by Andrews and Bonta does it say “education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments”? This was triggered by your claim “This study again found that education and drug interventions were more effective in reducing offending in prisoners compared to punitive punishments.” I still haven’t seen it, most likely because you made it up.
There’s one more comment of yours pending in Pre-Mod. I will deal with that one too but don’t bother submitting any other comments till this has been resolved, one way or another, as I will send them straight to Trash – Incognito]
Mod note
Limited Service Volunteer programmes have been running through both Labour and National governments. They could be considered a supported form of bootcamp.
They often have young people on them that have been directed there by the Ministry of Social Development, or the Justice System.
I have relatives that have been tasked with running some of these courses in the past.
Unfortunately, the mix of "directed" volunteers and those who have an interest in the Armed Forces as a career disrupts both groups in terms of outcomes.
There's a good report from 2019 that has a wealth of detail in it:
https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/publication/file/259fd2ccdb/Limited-Service-Volunteer-Report.pdf
So similar to current models? Why call it a boot camp? Thread derail.
I have asked the same question. I wish they didn't call it a boot camp. That just makes it a target for critics.
Brilliant.
He did sound totally paranoid in that dual language interview.
What it is called again when you feign a hit job on yourself? Dodging a bullet? Ducking for cover? Deflecting the issue? A coward? A faker? A liar & a cheater?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132534370/labour-hit-job-video-poster-went-to-luxons-public-meeting-in-good-faith
Brilliant gambit/tactic from bus drivers/first union.
From tomorrow to the following Saturday..bus trips will be free..
The driver's will work…but their industrial action is to not collect fares .
That's the way to do it..!
Don't inconvenience the punters…hit the employer where it hurts…their turnover…
This should remake how strikes are done..
(Sits back…fingers steepled..)
I remember – 20 or so years ago – the bus drivers in Sydney doing this.
A very popular tactic with the public.
How effective it will be in shifting the bosses – I don't know.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-bus-drivers-to-give-free-travel-for-a-week-as-industrial-action-continues/7NZMBVGPU5CR7G352KKGKS3K6E/
The point made about the route display info being tied into the Hop machine – does give pause for thought. You really do want to get onto the right bus….
However, it looks as though it may be a bit hit-and-miss – as to whether you get a free ride or not.
Seems like the call from the PM for a focus on basic priorities has been anticipated by the public service:
Would you pay that for those two pieces of furniture? If you would be aghast at the prospect, you probably aren't a public servant…
Thanks for the article. Next time I suggest you read past the headline and first few paragraphs quoting National's cherry-pick. There is plenty of info there that sounds reasonable about the spend.
Can't make a judgement call on bookcase and wardrobe, but if the walls they are to fit are 10 m long, that would explain the costings.
If anyone wishes to educate themselves about the Sovreign Citizen movement, Münecat deep-dives SovCits around the world. A well-researched, comprehensive explanation of the wads of paperwork they wave around. As usual, 1.5x speed gets you through it faster. Spoiler: it boils down to grifters preying on unsure people in a scary world.
David Seymour continues the right-wing grandstanding on crime.
Today he is calling for harsher sentencing for crimes against work places
So is he saying that crimes in workplaces are more serious than crimes in people's homes?
I bet people who suffer home invasions wouldn't agree with him.
It just shows even more plainly that Seymour doesn't really have a clue about how to really address crime, he thinks he can easily solve it by inserting a few words into a government bill.
ACT clearly think that government is an easy glamorous job. Jacinda would chuckle at their naivety.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300927510/act-promises-tougher-sentences-for-attacks-on-workers
AFAICS in the article – there is no mention of relative sentences against crimes committed during a home invasion (which is already, I think, an aggravating circumstance)
He's simply talking about making attacking a worker – in their place of employment, carrying out their usual job – an aggravating factor at the time of sentencing.
It's likely to be pretty popular for those who've been seeing local small business workers assaulted, not to mention nurses, ambos and firefighters attacked while they're trying to actually save lives.
The comparison would be with an assault in the street, or in a pub, or at a political rally. Where the assault sentence would not have the additional factor included.
This is more of the same proposal to restrict judges over sentencing that ACT have already signalled in several other areas. So nothing new from them.
I am less confident that ACT are, that they can actually influence judicial sentencing- but perhaps they have a plan if they are in government next year….
Nope, Seymour, Luxon, and NACT don’t want to solve crime. They are cynically manipulating opinion to win votes and the Treasury benches. Just look at their policies, mostly not or poorly costed (what’s $1.5B aanyway?), because they don’t give a toss.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/132546099/government-admits-it-made-a-mistake-when-keeping-a-lid-on-the-carbon-price
Hipkins’ government can break its own laws to keep the farmers happy and doesn’t really have a plan to clean up its mess.