Open mike 16/06/2023

59 comments on “Open mike 16/06/2023 ”

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1. adam 1

   16 June 2023 at 7:50 am

   Good coverage at the daily blog on the whole RNZ story.

   Be nice if this country had some more journalists with courage. Instead too many have made a virtue of stenographers and gotcha hacks. This will happen when we suck on the propaganda bubble.
   • Sanctuary 1.1

     16 June 2023 at 8:11 am

     The Daily Blog weekly measurably descends further and further into a conspiracy theory laden cesspit of stupidity.

     It is difficult to over-emphasise how much the The Daily Blog has drifted to a far right conspiracy theory site these days. Bradbury makes claims about events conducted by "the woke" and "the professional middle class" that happen outside the realm of observation, that are often outlandish and far-fetched, and that are not even necessarily meant to be believed, but rather function as part of his on going smear campaigns against his vast array of enemies real and imagined.
     • SPC 1.1.1

       16 June 2023 at 8:47 am

       It's being part of being of the alt media, here man of the people/popular masses/working class against the establiishment.

       Being one of that group, while of the left, reminds one of the Strasser brothers, however Bomber is more the man vs woke liberal feminists than an ally of the race based social conservatives.
       • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.1

         16 June 2023 at 1:24 pm

         You handle the Gonzo nature of TDB or not I guess. It started out with union sponsors and some pretty good writers, most of whom rarely contribute any more. Wayne Hope, Susan St. John, Dr David Robie and Mike Treen being exceptions albeit not regularly.

         It is a bit of a blocked S–bend the way a bunch of nutters have slipped their collar from various right wing blogs and been encouraged at TDB. The “woke” meme and late 90s look are indeed tiresome.

         And…The Standard…some great people here, and some unrepentant Rogernomes.
     • roy cartland 1.1.2

       16 June 2023 at 9:42 am

       I agree with Sanc re BB's writing style, it's combative, puerile and reads like an absolute dog. I wish he had someone to second and make his thoughts more readable, as there is a lot of good stuff that's he's trying to say amongst all that.

       I suggested he hire Toby Manhire to write on his behalf (instead of just railing about him), as that guy can seriously write, but the comment got blocked .
     • adam 1.1.3

       16 June 2023 at 11:40 am

       Case of attack the messenger and not the message. Or in a political debate we'd call that a straw-man in search of missing the point.
       • weka 1.1.3.1

         16 June 2023 at 1:45 pm

         Indeed. The pieces you link to weren't written by Bomber.
         • weka 1.1.3.1.1

           16 June 2023 at 1:54 pm

           next time put the authors' names in your comment rather than say it's TDB, might get more engagement. Quotes always help too.

           When people hide the URL in an embedded link, people can't see what the post is about, and imo they're less likely to click through.
           • adam 1.1.3.1.1.1

             16 June 2023 at 6:12 pm

             Sorry weka but those types of ad hominem towards Martyn Bradbury are lazy and quite childish.

             If people want to write emotive knee jerk responses, I'm not responsible for their laziness.
             • weka …

               17 June 2023 at 11:54 am

               you can't really complain about that if you're too stubborn to change yourself 🤷‍♀️
               • adam …

                 18 June 2023 at 2:06 am

                 I see what redlogix meant now…
     • Mike the Lefty 1.1.4

       16 June 2023 at 6:30 pm

       I was a regular contributor to TDB for a few years but eventually got sick and tired of Bradbury's woke rants, the trolls and nutters who just wanted to abuse people, not engage in any meaningful debate. So I came here instead, much better.
   • Incognito 1.2

     16 June 2023 at 8:49 am

     How would you feel if I altered your comments without telling you and without your permission so that they would convey quite a different message?
     • SPC 1.2.1

       16 June 2023 at 8:57 am

       Did he change anything written by RNZ or just foreign sourced reports?

       Reuters might have a complaint with RNZ though, about the impact on its reputation.
       • Incognito 1.2.1.1

         16 June 2023 at 9:00 am

         IDK
     • aj 1.2.2

       16 June 2023 at 9:01 am

       …How would you feel…

       Exactly. He could/should have asked to write his own rebuttal. Wouldn't have been permitted of course.

       Like Max Blumenthal has here.

       https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1669228835936632832.html
     • adam 1.2.3

       16 June 2023 at 12:00 pm

       False equivalence, it's not personal for starters. Secondly, journalism is not stenography.

       Reports off the wire get changed all the time, to full out the context and put it into the local context.

       This time someone stuck it to propaganda spewing from a source, and people are acting like the world collapsed.

       War makes liars of all sides. If you think one side is telling the truth all the time, I have these NFT's I'd like to sell you…
       • Dennis Frank 1.2.3.1

         16 June 2023 at 12:28 pm

         Reports off the wire get changed all the time, to full out the context and put it into the local context.

         Such is sensible journalism. I suspect what the controversy is about is misrepresentation though. Amending stuff from Reuters would only have an ethical basis if the editor declared that the story had been amended…
         • adam 1.2.3.1.1

           16 June 2023 at 12:54 pm

           I suspect what the controversy is about is misrepresentation though.

           Not for me it's propaganda pure and simple. One person got caught not reporting the official narrative, and its' a shit storm. Ugly times.
   • Bearded Git 1.3

     16 June 2023 at 9:22 am

     There is too much pro-Ukraine (almost propaganda) floating around in the MSM. It has been good to see a note of realism in the reporting of the recent Ukraine offensive operations.

     https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/14/ukraine-failed-assault-near-mala-tokmachka-raises-counteroffensive-challenges

     But I have difficulty with praise for The Daily Blog. Bomber's growing obsession with wokeness is frankly weird. And now he is criticising the Green's radical Wealth Tax saying:

     "but the reliance on a the wealth tax to do all the heavy lifting here is simply delusional."

     https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/06/16/why-green-party-wealth-tax-is-only-part-of-the-solution-and-cant-be-the-only-solution-and-why-ftt-and-land-tax-are/

     This is also weird-I thought Bomber was strongly in favour of a WT and to my knowledge the Greens have not ruled out other measures in addition to this. But he is right that a Land Tax is a good option.
   • Ed 1.4

     16 June 2023 at 10:05 am

     Totally agree Adam.

     I would suggest that some of the Standard's commentators fall into the same category for criticism as RNZ, hence the vitriolic attacks on the Daily Blog above.

     The words of Chris Trotter

     The people’s broadcaster became both the purveyor and defender of neoliberal and social-liberal orthodoxy – as swift to denounce Posie Parker as Vladimir Putin. Contracting-out economic commentary to the Aussie banks’ in-house economists, and political commentary to PR firms. It’s journalists appeared to be more comfortable attacking Hate Speech than defending Free Speech.

     Orthodoxy and Dissidence at the Standard – that would make a good post.
     • Sanctuary 1.4.1

       16 June 2023 at 11:31 am

       The main reasons the Daily Blog is criticised is 1) it's owner appears to be a deeply unpleasant bully and 2) the site is riddled with conspiracy thinking and alt-right memes. You only have to read the comments section to see the place attracts lunatics and losers by the bucketload.

       Bradbury's predilection for objectifying his enemies as collectively part of some sort of organised conspiracy is disturbing, and he seldom offers much by way of constructive solutions to anything. His posts generally consist of the same cut-and-pasted talking points endlessly and bombastically re-cycled. I mean, the guy believes in flying saucers FFS.

       I think a key difference between many of the contributors on this site and TDB is the Standard contains many people who have had successful careers working with or as part of institutions, and they bring with that actual life experience and insight into the difficulties of generating change in an environment that is ambiently hostile to even moderately left wing agendas. The TBD consists largely of serial complainers and professional fringe merchants who long ago fell victim to the romance of dissidence and whilst they are veterans of protest, they offer little by way of practical insight on how to get change over the line.

       Bradbury is an egotistical blowhard and a serial chancer whose failed attempts of being a disrupter to the hated establishment included buddying up to Kim Dotcom, because – surprise, surprise – he thought the Internet party would be the "king makers" who'd shake thing up. Nowadays he shills TOP and Maori party as the latest batters up in his quest to get payback on the establishment.

       He attracts some interesting commentators who should know better to his podcast I believe but the site itself is just a shithole.
       • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1

         16 June 2023 at 12:10 pm

         Um..!..top have some good policies..

         It is their using their votes to prop up a right-wing govt..that is their danger for any left-leaning voter seduced by those policies..

         ..and unsure of for why your apparent disdain for the maori party..?

         I see them..along with the greens..as being the spine labour is so lacking..

         That spinal deficit has been heavily underlined by their recent stint of total power..

         And what they didn't do with it…
         • Sanctuary 1.4.1.1.1

           16 June 2023 at 12:37 pm

           TPM seem to me to be largely interested in playing performative games as they really don't want to recognise the legitimacy of parliamentary government in NZ. Insofar as they don't believe in our current democratic arrangements or the legitimacy of the "settler state" they have no business with accepting a seat and salary within it's institutions.

           TOP are a contradiction in terms, a centrist anti-establishment party. In reality it is just another attempt at the suppression of politics with "applied common sense".
           • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1.1.1

             16 June 2023 at 3:16 pm

             I think the key word in your assessment of tpm is 'performative'..

             But dig down and their social policies are old school labour/dismantling of the neoliberal policies adhered to by labour post ' '84.

             And they are a tidy fit with the social policies of the greens..(hence my spine metaphor..)

             But looking past the 'performative'..much of tpm is whathat labour used to be all about..

             Another interesting aspect of this is I heard on mainstream media..that is that there has been a noticable increase on those on the maori roll..having moved from the general roll..

             And as far as that is concerned..I can only see tpm benefitting from that shift..

             And to my mind this will be a very good/coalition spine-building thing…
       • adam 1.4.1.2

         16 June 2023 at 12:20 pm

         Luckily the standard is not just a reflection of it commentators, otherwise it might be misread as a elitist, smug collection of know it all's who think their farts don't smell.
         • Sanctuary 1.4.1.2.1

           16 June 2023 at 12:23 pm

           I knew I recognised your nose pressed up against the window of the elitist annual dinner.

           We dined on foie gras, endangered creatures and seasoned it all with Martyn Bradbury’s salty tears. And oh! How we laughed.
           • adam 1.4.1.2.1.1

             16 June 2023 at 12:50 pm

             If I was you, I wouldn't be giving up my day job with that po-faced response.
             • tWiggle …

               16 June 2023 at 3:48 pm

               Alas, adam, you are the po-faced one:

               'She remained po-faced all evening, even when the rest of us were in stitches at Bob's jokes.'
               https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/po-faced

               While not in stitches, I certainly grinned at Sanctuary's comment.
               • adam …

                 16 June 2023 at 5:33 pm

                 No prizes for seconds
         • Phillip ure 1.4.1.2.2

           16 June 2023 at 3:27 pm

           Of course as a vegan…(no rotting meat in there)…my farts don't smell..

           And if they did they would have a je ne sais quoi quality..

           And I do think I know some shit about some stuff…

           (Maybe that makes me ' smug'..?..and as a believer in education.. maybe also 'elitist'..?

           Guilty as charged…?
     • tWiggle 1.4.2

       16 June 2023 at 11:32 am

       Kathryn Ryan interviews researcher Joan Donovan on media fact checking, political weaponsiation of memes

       Very topical interview.
     • tWiggle 1.4.3

       16 June 2023 at 11:54 am

       a critique of Trotter's position on free speech from a reddit discussion 10 months ago that sums up him up nicely.

       ' ….Because the narrative that [Trotter] is constructing is one that the left wing, not the right, is actively dismantling and destroying the system of rights and privileges that we as a democracy have..

       …It's dangerous because what it does is shift the narrative from the clear and present danger being presented by the far right to our democracy and social cohesion to one being presented by the left; spearheaded by a Labour government with all infinite power to change our lives via a majority in Parliament and further supported by the Greens and their "extremist" views.

       It portrays those on the far right, and on the right in general, as very much victims of a wider plot by the left to shut them out of democracy and violating their freedom of expression. It's an attempt to gaslight the public into believing that they are the "true victims" of perceived state repression and paint them in a more positive light by dressing their cause up as a resistance to overbearing government mandates and regulations, the dark veil of "censorship" via "cancel culture", and the many other talking points of the culture war the right has wholesale adopted from elsewhere.'
       • adam 1.4.3.1

         16 June 2023 at 12:10 pm

         Censorship is a slippery sloop and far to many on the left and the right have embraced it as normal.

         But to call someone far right for opposing the curtailing of free speech, or anti-democratic is really clutching at straws.
         • tWiggle 1.4.3.1.1

           16 June 2023 at 12:43 pm

           It's censorship if facts are suppressed, but it's not facts that are the weapons of choice, but disinformation, feelings, nebulous rumours, fostering political tribalism, and hate-filled othering of minorities.

           Listen to the RNZ interview: ethical journalists and truthful(ish) governments are caught in a stick: reportage to debunk becomes amplification of the lies.
           • adam 1.4.3.1.1.1

             16 June 2023 at 1:09 pm

             Did you miss the opening remarks, they have convicted the reporter and effectively calling him a Putin puppet. Then moan how could this happen to RNZ.

             You undercut you own argument by that piece of reporting being emotive, fostering political tribalism, and disinformation. Their feeling have been hurt and the digital reporter is to blame.

             It felt like a skit from not the nine o'clock news. This is why I hardly listen to RNZ after it got gutted by Key and co. 9 till noon is just truly awful, the stasi would be proud.
             • Dennis Frank …

               16 June 2023 at 1:27 pm

               Yeah, that default to a mainstreamer view eternally propounded by state media has always irritated me too. You can see why online culture has proliferated alt views. Trouble is, too many are delusional.

               It's the antique conundrum: caught between the devil & the deep blue sea. The devil works within the control system to direct state media toward controller-approved narratives while competing storytellers have another toke & hallucinate. However the good news is that we can escape that binary via a third alternative: relativise all views.

               The 21st century alt-media ocean is treacherous. We'd like somewhere to stand on common ground, but it's all awash out there…
               • tWiggle …

                 16 June 2023 at 3:29 pm

                 It's delusional to think we live in societies without bias. It's that Chomsky thing, where to function together, we have to agree on a few basic stories about ourselves. Of course governments shape that narrative.

                 I became aware of 'party lines' at the age of 10 or so. The Catholic magazine, Zelandia I think it was, had a different version of events in the 'Irish Troubles' from the BBC-derived story on tv news here. And, of course, there was the gap between scurrilous, but true, Wellington gossip Muldoon and what appeared in national media. Oh, and working out that Readers Digest toilet reading spun emotive yarns.

                 That why we have brains, to learn how detect bullshit when it's being flogged to us.Unfortunately, Trump began an avalanche of ‘alternative facts’ in political discourse. Chaff strewing wasa Nazi propaganda tactic – put so much in the water that facts and logical discourse become obscured by outrage of the day.
             • Phillip ure …

               16 June 2023 at 3:30 pm

               So…who do you 'listen to' adam..?

               Hosking perchance..?
               • adam …

                 16 June 2023 at 5:35 pm

                 No, The ABC in Australia mainly their Phil
                 • Phillip ure …

                   16 June 2023 at 10:28 pm

                   Abc is solid enough…
                   • adam …

                     17 June 2023 at 1:17 am

                     It has it own set of problems. But on the whole I find it better than most here. Also broader in the people and opinions it expresses. Bigger population helps.

                     During the submissions on RNZ and TVNZ I put forward the idea, That the ABC take over operations of our public media, and tax the banks to pay for it – as they are Australian anyway.
             • tWiggle …

               16 June 2023 at 4:51 pm

               Reuters produces general news content, and does not allow change of their content of without permission, which is what the RNZ editor did. This broke both the editor's responsibility as an employee, and RNZ's terms and conditions with Reuters.

               Here's Reuters rating for factual reliability. 'Reuters achieved the fifth-highest score for any site that we analyzed. This suggests that articles from Reuters are highly neutral in their reporting, strictly conveying information in an objective and unbiased way.'

               And here is RTs rating. 'RT scored an average Factual Grade of 41.8%, placing it in the 1st percentile of our dataset. This is the third-lowest score for any site that we analyzed.'
               • adam …

                 16 June 2023 at 6:02 pm

                 Really, quoting the corporate web site factual who is owned by yahoo – who in turn are owned by Apollo Asset Management a company who ranks rather low on most trust meters, and quite high on the corporate spin meters is rather funny. Irony is such a harsh task master.

                 What the does the straw man RT have to do with anything?

                 In wars people lie. Short and simple. Don't think for one minute Reuters are above it, they have been caught lying before and lying by omission is still a lie.

                 This is old, but it might help

                 https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2022/0304/They-seem-so-like-us-How-bias-creeps-into-war-reporting
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 16 June 2023 at 7:28 pm

                 What a great site – new to me – thanks.

                 https://www.thefactual.com/blog/biased-factual-reliable-new-sources/

                 'The Factual' analyses (among many things) articles written by media organisations/news sources to obtain a "Factual Grade", and a "Writing Tone" metric (how neutral/opinionated articles are) for each source.

                 Here's Reuters rating for factual reliability. 'Reuters achieved the fifth-highest score for any site that we analyzed. This suggests that articles from Reuters are highly neutral in their reporting, strictly conveying information in an objective and unbiased way.'

                 According to the info in that link, "Reuters scored an average Factual Grade of 69.8%", which places it in 42nd place (of 239 sources analysed.) Reuters' average 'Writing Tone' score was 0.80, which has the much higher ranking of 5th place.

                 So, Reuters is pretty good overall, and better for 'Tone' than 'Factual'.

                 Interestingly (unsurprisingly?), five of the top ten 'Factual' sources have strong STEM themes:

                 Smithsonian Magazine…85.9%
                 Science Alert………………..80.9%
                 Space.com……………………80.5%
                 MIT Technology Review 75.9%
                 New Scientist……………….75.4%

                 "Publisher Bias" is "Center" for all five of these sources.
                 • Belladonna …

                   16 June 2023 at 8:05 pm

                   It makes my geeky heart sing to see New Scientist in the top 5.
           • The Chairman 1.4.3.1.1.2

             16 June 2023 at 6:50 pm

             It's not facts that are the weapons of choice, but disinformation…

             But what happens when so-called disinformation turns out to be true? If we quickly censor it (the truth) as disinformation, it would never come out.

             For example, Nicky Hager vs the NZ Defence Force.

             What they had claimed was a key flaw in the allegations in the 2017 book was, in fact, correct.

             https://www.nbr.co.nz/defence-cover-up-starts-to-unravel/

             That’s merely one reason why what you are pushing/supporting needs to be stopped.
   • Nic the NZer 1.5

     16 June 2023 at 4:01 pm

     Something very odd at the end of the article discussing the Australian diplomat. Apparently Luke Harding wants to highlight the diplomats involvement in the now discredited Trump Russia investigation. That looks rather odd coming from the author of the book 'Collusion', promoting the whole conspiracy.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   16 June 2023 at 9:16 am

   Neoliberals do gradualism routinely. The idea is that Adam's Smith's invisible hand takes a while to get moving – but boy, it sure is inertial once it gets moving.

   the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Simon Upton who commissioned a report to look at the country’s electricity generation options as it decarbonises. The findings will also make National’s energy policy look ridiculous, given that it has pledged to immediately scrap all work on Onslow if it forms the next government. What will leave even more egg on National’s face is that it has generally taken notice of what Upton has had to say on issues like the Natural and Built Environments Bill and climate change. And, after all, he is a former National Minister and a pretty significant one at that.

   Upton’s report finds that the annual emissions savings from Onslow (including from the construction of Onslow) would be equivalent to around 0.06% of New Zealand’s total emissions.

   https://www.politik.co.nz/report-offers-suprising-conclusion/ | Politik

   Accuse me of heresy if you like, but a big spend-up to eliminate .06% of a problem ain't no master-stroke. However, David Parker sometimes gets it right – best to wait & see.

   So the difference between National & Labour re climate change is the difference between do nothing and do something infinitesimally small. Simon Upton does us all a favour by high-lighting this dramatic difference between the right & the left.
   • Bearded Git 2.1

     16 June 2023 at 9:41 am

     Reading that:

     1. Hydrogen makes no sense at all.
     2. Onslow only saves 0.06% of NZ's emissions so is also a non-starter.
     3. Closing Tiwai would buy NZ a lot of time. During this time rapidly evolving battery technology may well advance to a point that battery-storage as opposed to Onslow-storage would be cheaper and more efficient. At the same time other power saving technologies would also be developed such as smart meters for homes.

     So close down Tiwai.
     • roy cartland 2.1.1

       16 June 2023 at 9:45 am

       Can you explain the hydrogen comment? I keep hearing it's "just storage" not generation, but isn't that the same with fuel? I'm a bit lost in the forest of it (sorry about that and thanks).
     • Dennis Frank 2.1.2

       16 June 2023 at 10:13 am

       Would be good to hear from this expert: https://info.scoop.co.nz/Molly_Melhuish

       Local & bioregional applications seem more inherently interesting than the macro view into the national grid. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/scaling-down-hydrogen-to-our-communities
3. tWiggle 3

   16 June 2023 at 10:22 am

   Paul the Other One discusses the safety meaures recommended for election candidates this year.

   The CT crowd engendered from Covid measures has mutated into a general anti-democracy movement.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1

     16 June 2023 at 2:08 pm

     How to talk to someone about conspiracy theories in five simple steps
     [21 January 2023]

     Conspiracy Theories Can Be Undermined with These Strategies, New Analysis Shows [5 April 2023]

     Thanks tWiggle – I do hope that the 'make NZ ungovernable' anti-democracy movement doesn't grow, but multiple global challenges are fuelling conspiracy theories/theorists.

     Would value- (save lives), evidence-based responses to pandemic threats have caused a smaller ripple of disaffection 40 years ago? Possibly less 'entitled exceptionalism', no online social media amplifying fringe theories, and less backlash against 'team of 3 million'-type memes? It may be self deception, but I'd like to think so.

     The Weaponization of Conspiracy Theories: A Growing National Security Threat [11 May 2022; PDF]
     Humans do not cognitively manage uncertainty well. We regularly look for quick, simplified answers to assuage the discomfort that comes with attempting to discern meaning in the ambiguity and nuance of significant events, such as 9/11 or the coronavirus pandemic. Conspiracy theories provide one such pathway to resolving uncertainty in the face of reality’s complexity and they often present new communities for disaffected individuals. In this new in-group, individuals find fellow travelers of like mind, and most importantly, there is a diminished chance that one’s niche, outlandish thoughts will be derided by their peers. Conspiracy theories often present individuals a means to express agency and conduct a personal or collective search for truth — a process of discovery that can reduce uncertainty and provide a sense of purpose. However, conspiracy theories rarely exist in isolation and often overlap heavily with other conspiracy theories, creating suites of similarly oriented outlooks that can be rotated at will by adherents. Thus, the process of discovery can become an all-consuming facet of one’s life that perpetually moves the goal posts on identifying “truth.”

     Choose your reality: Trust wanes, conspiracy theories rise [10 July 2022]
     Rejecting what they hear from scientists, journalists or public officials, these people instead embrace tales of dark plots and secret explanations. And their beliefs, say experts who study misinformation and extremism, reflect a widespread loss of faith in institutions like government and media.

     Conspiracy theories are dangerous even if very few people believe them [20 September 2022]

     Shining a spotlight on the dangerous consequences of conspiracy theories [October 2022]
     The COVID-19 pandemic has illuminated how conspiracy beliefs–that explain important events as the secret actions of the powerful–can severely impact health choices (such as reduced infection-prevention behaviours). However, the consequences of conspiracy beliefs span far beyond the topic of COVID-19. This review shines a spotlight on how conspiracy beliefs could impact public and personal health (e.g., vaccine uptake), democratic citizenship (e.g., political engagement), intergroup relations (e.g., prejudice and discrimination), and may inspire violence and extremism. We argue that conspiracy beliefs are likely to have the power to mobilise citizens in ways detrimental to a smooth-running society.

     Contemporary trends in psychological research on conspiracy beliefs. A systematic review [8 February 2023]
     The research presents evidence on the links between conspiracy beliefs and a range of attitudes and behaviors considered unfavorable from the point of view of individuals and of the society at large. It turned out that different constructs of conspiracy thinking interact with each other.
     • adam 3.1.1

       16 June 2023 at 6:45 pm

       To boil down your posts, and what a slog, they are all about anti-radicalization in any form.

       Which in the face of economic beating most people are taking is well, I'll let you decide.

       Plus the climate crisis, this pressure on people and their lives is just getting worse.

       Come on, be honest with people. About the economic situation they are in and why its that way – and most of this crap about conspiracy theories will fall by the way side.

       To pretend that this system is fine, and people are not suffering from this hellish economic b.s. – makes you just as bad, if not worse, than those pushing conspiracy theories.

       And because we all need a laugh

       http://www.itanimulli.com/
       • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.1.1

         17 June 2023 at 11:55 am

         To boil down your posts, and what a slog, they are all about anti-radicalization in any form.
         …
         To pretend that this system is fine, and people are not suffering from this hellish economic b.s. – makes you just as bad, if not worse, than those pushing conspiracy theories.

         adam, sorry you feel that I'm "just as bad, if not worse, than those pushing conspiracy theories" – let's agree to disagree. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" [Marx] may not be sufficiently radical for you, but it appeals to me as a way through our footprint-related challenges. I favour greatly increasing wealth redistribution – recent Green party policies would be a start.

         https://www.greens.org.nz/ending_poverty_together

         Here's a subset of TS comments that mention this idea of Marx.

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-05-2019/#comment-1616295

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-10-2020/#comment-1755513

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/nzme-is-on-a-mission-to-change-the-government/#comment-1859605

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-08-2022/#comment-1908223

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-05-2023/#comment-1949949

         To pretend that this system is fine…

         seems such a strange take on my comment(s). Many Kiwis are suffering real deprivation. If "pushing conspiracy theories" has the potential to alleviate financial hardship, then "show me the money", but imho many conspiracy theories are at best distractions, and often used by grifters to cynically manipulate their marks.

         An epidemic of uncertainty: rumors, conspiracy theories and vaccine hesitancy [10 March 2022]
         …one-fifth of Americans believe that COVID-19 vaccines are being used by the government to microchip the public…
         • adam 3.1.1.1.1

           18 June 2023 at 2:00 am

           My apologies for my clumsy writing, it was not meant as a personal attack. It was meant as an attack on the pieces posted, and their push to quell any and all radicalization to the current system.

           And yes I find Marx lacking in many ways. His analytical skills are second to none, but, his social solutions show up his class, race, and misogyny. Engels was a more rounded figure in that regard.

           As for economic deprivation, poverty is a breading ground for all sorts of tomfoolery. Especially the self destructive kind. Conspiracy theories are right up there with substance abuse and self mutilation. None produce economic benefit, but all fill a gap in a persons life. As you say, a situation easily exploited in a society such as ours. Where the greedy keep trying to fill their craven needs.
4. tWiggle 4

   16 June 2023 at 4:17 pm

   Thanks DM Kram for listing those refs.
5. Jilly Bee 5

   16 June 2023 at 5:07 pm

   I was delighted to see that despite what Michael Wood has gone through (OK, he should have got rid of those damn shares much earlier), he still has managed a quick reposte to Erica Stanford's witterings on the AM show this morning. Being retired, I don't do mornings, let alone what passes for morning TV shows, though I was up bright and bushy tailed today to do battle at our local CAB. I came across this snippet on STUFF and had a wee chortle. I also took note of Erica Stanford on '7 Days' last evening in the 'Yes Minister' segment. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the format, a parliamentarian, Minister, Back Bencher, Govt or Opposition MP cames in to answer questions which are pretty loaded and they are not to answer YES or NO. Our Erica was in jovial spirits and answering correctly until she didn't and said the Y word, so that was that. She looked as black as her outfit when told to vacate the stage – the old saying came to me 'if looks could kill'. I don't think she was a happy chappy.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300907038/weve-never-gone-quite-that-far–tv-gaffe-leaves-mps-in-awkward-laughter

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