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Open mike 01/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 1st, 2020 - 301 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

301 comments on “Open mike 01/10/2020 ”

  1. Andre 1

    As more US presidential debate reaction comes in, a consensus seems to be coming through.

    I'm paraphrasing here, but what people saw was one person coming to talk about the presidency and the future of the country, one person coming to moderate and steer a debate about the presidency and the future of the country, and one person coming to whizz on the other guy's lectern, take a dump on the moderator's desk, and whip out the wizened Toad lurking in his trousers and give it a good spanking for the cameras. One of those three people achieved their goals, to the delight of his supporters and disgust of everyone else.

    There also appears to be a growing consensus that there was indeed a moment people will refer to in the future, contra my comment last night. That moment was when Hair Twitler refused to say anything against violent white supremacists, instead giving them what looked for all the world like a shout-out to get ready to rumble.

    Hell, even Fox and Fiends seemed to think that was a fail. Here's Brian Kilmeade:

    "Donald Trump ruined the biggest layup in the history of debates by not condemning white supremacists,” the co-host said. “I don’t know if he didn’t hear it, but he’s gotta clarify that right away. Why the president didn’t just knock it out of the park, I’m not sure.”

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/518928-foxs-kilmeade-trump-ruined-the-biggest-layup-in-debate-history-by-not

    Or here's the reaction from someone more likely to be on the receiving end of the violence that was apparently encouraged:

    • tc 1.1

      Playing to the base, we're seeing a lot of that lately.

      • Andre 1.1.1

        Yeah. But to give Judthulhu her dues, she's nowhere close to even giving the appearance of wanting her supporters to violently overthrow democracy.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1

          Really?

          That's what I think her statement about Hager needing to meet his maker was about.

          It’s a basic truism that a healthy democracy needs good journalism.

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.2

          You obviously missed her comments about journalist Nicky Hager yesterday morning.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.2

      Loved that debate..bit messy yes, but action all the way! I am not sure what people expected, but this was exactly what I was expecting…Trump confirmed his status as arsehole and chief, but was nonetheless pretty quick off the mark and definitely landed a few heavy blows on Biden, who looked and sounded like well…Biden, uninspiring, mechanical and when wound up, like your crazy angry old man neighbour who you politely ignore.

      • Andre 1.2.1

        Thank you for clarifying exactly what appeals to you politically.

        • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1

          Well as neither of those two clowns even remotely represents anything that I do, so why would I care if these two horrible humans expose their obvious shit personalities in public? …Trump unhinged maniac…Biden bumbling bullshitting old man…but as I said still great TV imo.
          But on a serious note really this is politically just the chickens coming home to roost for the USA in general …which, and let’s face it, they well deserve.
          …which, and let’s face it, they well deserve.

          • Andre 1.2.1.1.1

            To avoid inconveniencing the moderators here, I will refrain from expressing my opinion of your evident malicious glee at real people suffering real harm.

            • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1.1.1

              I am guessing you are not including in your outrage the untold numbers of humans and their suffering wrought indiscriminately around every corner of the world by every POTUS that can be remembered and therefore by default the American people, as they are the ones voting for these manics time and time again? …no I didn't think so….the population of the USA get to feel a little heat locally for a change, maybe it will do them some good, who knows?..but sadly probably not…as like like you, most of them seem to think the decline of the moral standard of the USA started in 2016…Wrong!

            • infused 1.2.1.1.1.2

              get a grip.

          • Dennis Frank 1.2.1.1.2

            Lotsa folk got US propaganda in their heads about that country being the greatest democracy on Earth. So they showcase the reality via these two elderly turkeys vying to be leader. Even the turgid mental processes of mainstreamers will be somewhat activated by the cognitive dissonance induced, methinks.

            So if the two retards are the best the USA has to offer, what does the rest of western civilisation do with the gnosis? Face the fact that representative democracy is both a sham and an archaic political machine that no longer delivers suitable product, right?

            Even mainstreamers have to get real eventually. Always takes them a long time to get there, but I look forward to this election hurrying them along the learning curve.

          • weka 1.2.1.1.3

            If you believe that NZ will be safe if the US goes full fascist, you are a fool. By your measure, we all deserve it I guess, even kids and nature.

            Trump's not so bad, Hitler did some good things, and we're being entertained!

            • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1.3.1

              Are you actually comparing Trump to Hitler? seriously, you really have got to get some perspective going on over there….

              • weka

                No, I was comparing you to CV.

                Anyone paying attention can see that the Trump administration is developing a modern fascist state. If he gets to be like Hitler, it will be far, far too late.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  "Anyone paying attention can see that the Trump administration is developing a modern fascist state."…really? what exactly has he enacted into law or is doing that differently from former POTUS that would bring you to that amazing conclusion?…apart from the usual blustering and maneuvering to alter political optics that are usually employed by politicians.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    I think sterilisation goes a little beyond whatever had been standard practice for migrant internment.

                  • left_forward

                    Undermining democracy, manipulating the judiciary, practicing corruption, lying, manipulating elections, and encouraging white supremacy for some starters AT.

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      Sounds like business as usual in the USA to me pal…

                    • left_forward

                      @AT – no this is not BAU – the Trump disaster is unprecedented and your attempt at framing it as equivalent to what is normal does not hold any water. We only have one comparison from the 1930/40s to gauge this.

                  • weka

                    "what exactly has he enacted into law or is doing that differently from former POTUS that would bring you to that amazing conclusion?"

                    I'll take from that statement that you don't actually understand what the early stage fascist tactics are in the US. Enacting legislation isn't key, yet. But hey, Trump's not so bad, I guess he will choose someone good for the Supreme Court.

                    I'm not sure what your argument is here, that there is no fascist intent, or that they're all fascists. Either way, this attitude from someone of the left, of minimalising Trump's actions, is going to hurt by the time we get to the Hitler stage. I guess we'll be at the end of the line in NZ, but I already fear for my friends and family in the US.

      • Gabby 1.2.2

        You a bit of a wrestling fan, that wwe thing I mean?

        • Adrian Thornton 1.2.2.1

          Not really, but interesting analogy because WWF is all theatre, just like US politics, the same interests are always protected by both parties, end of story.

    • mauī 1.3

      Too much Clinton News Network for you. It wasn't a debate on white supremacy. Joe Hidin' was so presidential we found out all about his son, and got reminders of some of his unpleasant political history.

      • The Al1en 1.3.1

        When nigh on the whole world's reaction to the debate has focused on Trump's infantile performance and the main talking point flooding headlines of practically every media outlet is "stand back and stand by", to keep pushing Trump's attack lines makes you look a lot more stupid than I thought you actually were.

        • mauī 1.3.1.1

          I'll tell you what is stupid, gauging the result of a debate from the media that has been openly hostile to Trump for not just a short time, but for the entirety of his political career.

          • The Al1en 1.3.1.1.1

            No one mentioned gauging the result of the debate by media, just the reaction to Trump, his avoidance to call out racism and specifically not to call for an end of white supremacist activity, the notion Biden was damaged during the debate and the small minded idiocy of repeating republican attack lines after a near universal backlash.

            And still nothing about Biden’s ‘green new deal’. lol

            • mauī 1.3.1.1.1.1

              No, but I would never expect the likes of the Blair Broadcasting Corporation to cover Biden blatantly not knowing what his own position on a Green New Deal is, or that the moderator had to step in and help him remember what his position is.

              • The Al1en

                Yeah, they're as corrupt and morally bankrupt as newshub hiding the tinfoil hat parties 8% in their last poll.

                You're a crack up, Ainsley lol

    • weka 1.4

      You couldn't have paid me to watch that. But from what I can tell it wasn't just refusal to condemn white supremacy, he basically called out through the door he opened in the past 4 years and said have at it boys.

      White women not yet paying attention, we're in their sights too, we just won't be first on the list.

      • Andre 1.4.1

        The nomination of Barrett suggests that sticking it to all women including white women is competing hard for a spot at the top of the list.

      • The Al1en 1.4.2

        Trump's voter base – The uneducated white, is turning away from him, white women without college degrees leading the exodus.

        In Wisconsin, where Trump carried them by 16 points in 2016, he's now losing them by 9. That's a huge swing. Clearly your basic knuckle dragging male still has significant issues to overcome, but credit where it's due, and all that.

        ‘It’s a big, big swing’: Trump loses ground with white voters

        • Adrian Thornton 1.4.2.1

          "Clearly your basic knuckle dragging male still has significant issues to overcome, but credit where it's due, and all that"…fuck you really are an arrogant man, your bias seems (judging by your comments here anyway) just as entrenched and tribal as anyone from the Teaparty…well done.

          • Andre 1.4.2.1.1

            That touched a von Nervestick, did it?

            • Adrian Thornton 1.4.2.1.1.1

              No, just the stench of hypocrisy is high in these parts…

              • weka

                how is what you are doing not tribal? You're not using a strategic approach, but appear solidly cemented into a position that pits some groups against others.

    • Cinny 1.5

      Tried to watch it yesterday, but was too busy, looking forward to checking it out after work.

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

    Trump cant keep them all quiet

    "President Donald Trump’s acting homeland security chief on Wednesday acknowledged that white supremacist extremists played a role in this year’s urban violence in the United States, a revision of the administration’s public descriptions of the political motivations of violent protesters."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-homeland-supremacists-idUSKBN26031F

    Seeing some of the (very) well armed militias quite openly on the streets is a worry…

    • RedLogix 2.1

      So do you think many Americans don't find the sight of BLM and Antifa extremists on the streets, rioting, burning and looting a bit of a worry as well? Not to mention the neo-Maoist cultural revolution they seem intent on kicking off.

      Most Americans just want all of these extremist moonhowlers to slither back into the turd swamps from which they came.

      • Andre 2.1.1

        Can you point to any actual actions taken by BLM protests to support your assertion that they are trying to bring about a neo-marxist cultural revolution?

        You've made a big deal of expressed marxist enthusiasms of a couple of BLM "founders", if the idea of founders has any real meaning of something so completely lacking in structure and hierarchy as BLM. But I have seen nothing in terms of actual actions that suggests BLM has any hidden agenda, nor that their "founders" marxist leanings are finding any actual expression or enthusiasm in the movement, and that BLM really is what it appears be on the surface of what they do:

        Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a decentralized political and social movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality and all racially motivated violence against black people.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter

        https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1

          actual actions taken by BLM protests to support your assertion that they are trying to bring about a neo-marxist cultural revolution

          I'm absolutely not the only person to have noticed the heavily dotted line between the anti-racist rhetoric of BLM activists and the Cultural Revolution.

          But from a personal perspective it was first brought to my attention some months back by the elderly grandmother of the Chinese family we are very close to (we lived with them for almost two years) here in Brisbane.

          She lived through the real thing and knows what these things look like.

          • Andre 2.1.1.1.1

            Go on, be specific. Point to actual documented actions. Something real, not vague insinuations and feels.

            • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1.1

              You cannot lightly dismiss people's own experiences and conclusions like that.

              But in brief, BLM's rhetoric consistently reduces everything to a question of race, exactly as Mao reduced everything to one of class. The framework of oppression and the superior moral quality of the proletariat shaped every thought and action.

              Yet absurdly enough in the 60's and 70's China was a fairly egalitarian country, because of Mao's catastrophic "Great Leap Forward", not only had tens of millions died in a totally unnecessary famine, the whole country was backward and poor. The so called 'landlord class' that were murdered by the thousands, were in reality peasants themselves barely more wealthy than the villagers they lived among. Mao's 'class struggle' was an utterly bogus smokescreen, an enabling tool to cover for his political power grab. And notably he exploited the naivety and lack of life experience of the young to form his activist cadres.

              The parallels with BLM are very similar, substitute race for class, and the parallels are close enough to be worth pointing to.

              • Andre

                Actual BLM statements and actions, please. Not just vague insinuations.

                You haven't provided even a vague hint as to what actual BLM actions or statements you and your chinese friends are reacting to. For all we know, it could be disinformation originating from … well, anywhere.

                • RedLogix

                  There is nothing vague about BLM's mis-characterisation of the USA as an irredeemably racist society founded in slavery and predicated solely on white supremacy.

                  It's in the links you have already provided.

                  • Andre

                    Putting aside whether or not that's an accurate characterisation, how do you get from there to "Not to mention the neo-Maoist cultural revolution they seem intent on kicking off." ?

                    • The Al1en

                      Putting aside whether or not that's an accurate characterisation

                      It's not accurate in so far as the movement still think America is redeemable.

          • Gabby 2.1.1.1.2

            My god, are they setting up reeducation camps?

      • millsy 2.1.2

        A neo-Maoist cultural revolution sounds bloody good to me.

        If anything it will sweep aside the last vestiges of theocracy, plutocracy and racism.

        No black, woman or worker should have their lives dicatated to by capitalist religious elites.

        • RedLogix 2.1.2.1

          A neo-Maoist cultural revolution sounds bloody good to me.

          Oh yes, and complete with the mass murders. I can just see you running about gleefully executing subhuman bourgeoisie.

          This is a constant problem the left has. It's hot off the mark to condemn fascists, race supremacists and extremists of a liberal or conservative bent, but is utterly blind to the equally dangerous and deranged extremists in it's own midst.

          • millsy 2.1.2.1.1

            Yes, some antics are distasteful, but you need to remember what is at stake here.

            The Right in the US, UK, Australia and here was a full on theocracy with free market characteristics, where the white male is at the top of the pyramid.

            If a few shops have to be burned down, and diners abused, for this to be stopped, then so be it.

            • RedLogix 2.1.2.1.1.1

              I know, executing landlords is distasteful work, but someone has to do it eh?

              • The Al1en

                Execution is a bit strong – Can't we just cripple them in the same way they have to low paid tenants?

                • RedLogix

                  Cripple? Specifically, break their legs, shatter kneecaps, cut out tongues … or just settle for a mild gouging out of eyes?

                    • RedLogix

                      You won't make a very good revolutionary …

                    • RedLogix

                      So you would advocate for a Labour govt to make all residential rentals illegal then?

                      The vast majority of landlords are pretty ordinary working people who are looking for some income in retirement over and above NZ Super. It's a great scheme, but it's a safety net, not something most people would aspire to live on for maybe 20 – 40 years.

                      The problem NZ created for itself when Muldoon scuppered the original Labour Super scheme (while Australia roared ahead with their hugely successful version), and then Rogernomics alternately hyped and huffed the NZ stockmarket, is that our generation was really only left with housing as a reasonably reliable alternative.

                      That means our economy has become distorted toward housing as an investment vehicle. The cure is not to destroy the best and only retirement funding option open to most people, but to expand their choices.

                      On the other hand if you're content to live on NZ Super would you please mind keeping your nastier, 'crippling' impulses out of public view?

                    • The Al1en

                      Weird rant, especially the attempt to turn the cripple comment into something violent when it was you who started with "execute" but no, I'd hit them with a CGT and stop the tax breaks.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  "Can't we just cripple them in the same way they have to low paid tenants?"Finally we agree on something!

            • Stunned Mullet 2.1.2.1.1.2

              Classy as always Millsy, nothing like advocating a bit of violence and destruction of property to serve your rather odious purposes.

              • greywarshark

                You are stunned, mullet; we are just playing into your name game. You announce in your name what you expect and we are just playing along. Next week we will put another similar up so you can trot out your odious line again – like taking the dog for a walk to keep it exercised. Feel good?

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.3

        @RedLogix, Just as a matter of interest, what are your thoughts on Jordan Peterson?

        • RedLogix 2.1.3.1

          First up I always keep in mind that he's politically a classic liberal with a bit of a libertarian bent. As a moderate socialist I try to keep this bias in mind and when he drifts onto overtly political topics (which isn't often), I find myself disagreeing with him quite strongly. We don't agree on climate change for instance.

          The other thing to keep in mind is that in his speeches and recent book, he's simplifying often complex topics for the sake of both brevity, lucidity and the audience's non-academic background. So I accept that some of his claims are subject to technical challenge.

          Also I find many of his detractors are terribly narrow, they attack him on singular points, utterly ignoring (or ignorant of) where he addresses the issue elsewhere. For example the left usually characterise him as an alt-right (the actual alt-right hate him however), when in fact the one topic he returns to often and with considerable passion is the very difficult question of inequality. Which conventionally is supposed to be a left wing concern.

          But he's thought provoking, and in his own way I see him as both sincere and committed to seeking a true path forward for all of humanity; he's a visibly a work in progress. He is very much upholds the notion of a universal humanity as I do.

          What is also obvious, is that extremists of all colours absolutely hate him. I have to defend him for that.

          • Adrian Thornton 2.1.3.1.1

            I don't know if you watched the Zizek/Peterson debate which was specifically on Communism and Peterson's 'cultural marxism' where Peterson basically exposed to the world during that debate that he had never even read The Communist Manifesto let alone any Marx…in other words, he exposed himself as a fraud.

            I am not sure if thought provoking is the term I would you to describe him myself, but I do find it quite depressing that so many smart young men (and it is mainly young men) find an obvious charlatan so intriguing.

            • RedLogix 2.1.3.1.1.1

              Only a relatively small handful of people have read Marx in full. Either they're academics paid to do it, or they pretend to have in order to remain a member of the club. But the essentials of Marxism are clear enough, and certainly the consequences when put into action are even more vivid.

              Every physicist knows of Newton, but few have read Principia in full. Every biologist and most lay people understand evolution, but how many have read Origin of the Species?

              As for the debate you're talking about, it seemed the two of them actually agreed on far more than they disagreed on.

              • Stuart Munro

                Origin is dull as ditchwater – In The Voyage of the Beagle you find out Darwin can write. Kapital makes Origin seem like a thriller.

                • In Vino

                  Cannot quite agree, Stuart – bought a copy of Das Kapital in the late 60s. It is not a long work, and I thought it contained an interesting if cynical view of Capitalist Society. But later I was given a book of articles he wrote for newspapers. That one I found an excellent cure for insomnia. It remains unread.

                  I have previously clashed a bit with RedLogix over Marxism. I think he was a revolutionary figure who got blamed when his possibly feasible ideas were tried only in countries where they had no chance of succeeding, because those countries were seeped in a culture of repressive totalitarianism, and all reverted to form very quickly.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    It is not a long work,

                    I bought a three volume set back in the eighties – it seemed pretty massive to me at the time. 1134 ebook pages nowadays apparently.

                    his possibly feasible ideas were tried only in countries where they had no chance of succeeding,

                    There is some truth to that, I used to argue that there was only one revolutionary communist state – the most dysfunctional – and that all the rest were de-colonial enterprises.

                    It is Marx's critique of the massive injustices generated by capitalism that is unassailable – his solutions, and those others appended to them, did need a little work.

              • Adrian Thornton

                While I agree with you that not too many people have actually read Marx (me included, I have tried several time, but had to admit that I am just not that smart) but as you say he essentials are clear enough. However when it turns out that a pubic intellectual who has made a name for themselves critiquing Marx and Marxism and then agrees to debate the most famous Communist philosopher alive today, hasn't actually read Marx himself..well that is a whole different kettle of fish as I am sure you would agree?

                • RedLogix

                  Petersons attack on Marxism is, like mine, based not on the theory but on a reasonably good grasp of its vile consequences.

                  • arkie

                    Peterson's grasp is tenuous, full of misrepresentations, this is a long video, but outlines what Marx actually wrote, by someone who has actually read his work.

                    Isn't one of JP's own 12 Rules for Life "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t"?

        • Muttonbird 2.1.3.2

          Reading this it seems RL has diluted his defence of the hapless Jordan Peterson.

          Most of us knew he was a fraud from the explosive outset. RL is only now catching up. Good to see though.

          • RedLogix 2.1.3.2.1

            In my experience people attacking Peterson invariably resort to bad faith personal attacks rather than address any actual issues.

            But the difference here is that I never expect omniscience or perfection from anyone. Just a well constructed argument is what I will settle for.

            • Muttonbird 2.1.3.2.1.1

              I'm exhausted from addressing actual issues with regard to Jordan Peterson. His own behaviour seems to have taken all his arguments off the table and that is good enough for me.

              • RedLogix

                I think you mean you've exhausted all of your arguments already. Fair call I can see that.

                Just stick to the ad homs, you're more convincing that way.

                • left for dead

                  Just stick to the ad homs, Good morning Red, been mulling over your land lord class in Mao's time,are they the same type of people who have been given a life line here (NZ) that are voting Act, have you any thoughts on this. regards

                • Muttonbird

                  Sometimes ad homs are the only way to get the message through.

                • Muttonbird

                  It is also important to highlight the link between Jordan Peterson and his association with the white supremacist movement, and your own fawning over Peterson and defence of all things white on this forum.

                  Queensland is a good fit for you.

              • PsyclingLeft.Always

                Have you seen Ben Burgis' take down of Peterson. ? Well there is more than one…

                Peterson the Guru of…. Self Help Platitudes…and meaningless mythos mysticism. Psycho babble. Fark, have a look at his Maps of Meaning …for a laugh : )

                Anyway…

                "However, using the coincidence of serotonin as the supposed basis for behavioural parallels between lobsters and humans – trumpeted during the Channel 4 interview, again to give off the impression of scientific authority – has been expertly dismantled by the biologist PZ Myers. Evidently irked by Peterson's intellectual overreaching, Myers claims that Peterson has "built a case on false facts and distortions of general observations from the scientific literature. He has not demonstrated anything about socio-cultural constructions. Not only does he get the evidence wrong, he can't construct any kind of logical argument…"

                Worse still, Myers argues, there is an ideological motive for all this: "Peterson is distorting the evidence to fit an agenda… It's appalling the degree to which this man is asserting nonsense with such smug confidence. This man is lying to you."

                So much for Rule 8: "Tell the truth – or, at least, don’t lie."

                https://www.vice.com/en/article/evqekn/the-fundamental-errors-of-jordan-peterson?utm_source=stylizedembed_vice.com&utm_campaign=bj9znv&site=vice

                • Muttonbird

                  I feel sorry for the vulnerable people Peterson duped. I'm glad he's now on show as a complete fraud. All meat diet, ffs.

                  • PsyclingLeft.Always

                    Indeed. A type of snake oil pedlar of possibly the worst kind. Anyway he seems kinda over meat anyway….

            • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.3.2.1.2

              "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a principle that appeals to me, particularly as a means of fostering the societal and environmental resilience needed if civilization is to survive the wave upon wave of existential challenges it faces. Some have traced its origins to the New Testament:

              Acts 4:32–35: 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_needs

              Words to live by, IMHO.

              • RedLogix

                "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

                The obvious problem is that every person has unique abilities and needs. Who measures these? And by what yardstick? And in what dimensions?

                Any systematic bureaucracy that attempts such a task inevitably has to simplify people into broad identity categories, erasing all individual difference.

                And for all that it's been a powerful meme among collectivists, the truly odd thing is that when you look closely it's really a confirmation of the sovereignty of the individual.

                The quote from Acts are indeed words to live by if you choose the life of an Apostle. The rest of us have families, households and maybe businesses to operate. We have to invest in our own capacity to assume worldly responsibility and discharge our duty to society.

                The true meaning which ties this together is the notion of service to others, not communal property. And that's a whole other proposition I've been working my way around to elaborating more on. wink

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  As I said, the principle appeals to me. I agree that putting it into practice is problematic, but IMHO that's a poor reason not to promote it. Personally think we're part way there already, and we can all aspire to do better if we only choose to do so.

      • Cinny 2.1.4

        There have been many agent provocateurs making chaos for BLM.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.5

        Triggered much? I commented : "Seeing some of the (very) well armed militias quite openly on the streets is a worry "

        And you went full metal antimarx…… get a grip.

  3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

    Bullshit and jellybeans. Well he's got the first part covered…

    'Invercargill Mayor Sir Tim Shadbolt believes his critics want him removed because he is like Donald Trump — someone who speaks out and "tells the truth". '

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/sir-tim-compares-himself-trump-johnson

    Sounds like the marbles have rolled away….

    • Dennis Frank 3.1

      Heh. Ageism is rife in Southland! Could see it as him juggling his marbles…

      He went on to challenge the other councillors aged over 70 to a 100m sprint, a 50m swim and a lap of the ILT Stadium velodrome.

      Let's hope they rise to the challenge, huh? Televise the consequence as a worthy example of social darwinism in action.

      • greywarshark 3.1.1

        Didn't Putin do physical things like that, wrestle a bear? I think to show the physically oriented that he's up to it. Shadbolt similar I guess. It worked for Trump too – this reaching out to the common man and woman. And there are so many of us around. Judith likes his success, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. She does her physical thing – got her fingers crossed, and eyebrow exercises every morning.

        • Wensleydale 3.1.1.1

          The bear let him win because it knew it would be shot or poisoned if Uncle Vlad was humiliated before the masses.

    • millsy 3.2

      Tim is the quintessential Trotskyite.

      Global left revolutionary in the 1970's, then 50 years later, a rusted on good old boy Rotarian establishment hack.

  4. millsy 4

    So, if Judith pulls of a victory, which I am seriously I am starting to think she will, and Jacinda resigns as Labour leader, who is the best fit to replace her?

    Fun Fact: Mike Moore is the country’s youngest ex PM at 41.

    • Adrian Thornton 4.1

      " So, if Judith pulls of a victory "…what on earth gives you that impression?

      • Bearded Git 4.1.1

        The only way Judith can pull off victory is if the Greens don't get 5%….that is looking unlikely on recent polling with the Greens polling 11.5/7/6.5/7 over the last 4 published polls (ignoring the leaked "corporate" UMR poll).

        But it is worth remembering that a vote for the Greens is a vote for Jacinda….which is what I will do on Monday.

        It was good to see Jacinda being honest last night in saying that the “green school” grant (probably loan now) was supported and signed off by Labour-Hipkins should take note.

        • greywarshark 4.1.1.1

          Fun fact – you're no fun millsy. Old saying – If you can't say anything positive say nothing at all.

      • millsy 4.1.2

        General consensus is that Judith has won both debates

        Labour is starting to slip in the polls and National is creeping up.

        There is a lot of hate for Jacinda online.

        The one thing I hate about this blog, is that it is completely in denial about the possibility of a National victory.

        National are going to win this one. I feel it.

        • Barfly 4.1.2.1

          National are going to win this one. I feel it.

          Thanks for starting up my suicidal ideation

        • Bearded Git 4.1.2.2

          Millsy….under normal circumstances you might have had a point. But this election, for better or for worse, is about the response to Covid. The coalition has succeeded magnificently in this regard-the polls reflect this.

          It doesn't help that National has been in chaos recently, nor that they have appointed a Dirty Politics tainted leader and a dinosaur (who is now hated by many in CHCH) as deputy.

        • Rapunzel 4.1.2.3

          Would it be impolite to ask when you've drunk ½ your glass of water is it ½ empty or ½ full?

        • Sacha 4.1.2.4

          PM Judith? Don't be daft.

          • millsy 4.1.2.4.1

            "President Trump? Don't be daft!"

            – Anyone, before November 2016.

            • Sacha 4.1.2.4.1.1

              Because the situation here is just the same, eh.

            • Uncle Scrim 4.1.2.4.1.2

              Yeah and NZ has proportional representation and a Westminster Parliament. Trump of course lost the popular vote by several million. Under NZ's old FPTP system Judith's hero Muldoon won two elections while losing the popular vote (1978 and 1981) by exploiting divisions in society. That is much more difficult under MMP.

              The most recent (CB) poll had the Lab-Greens bloc on 54% and Nat-ACT on 41%, which was a comparatively good result for the latter, but others taken around a similar time, ie the previous two CB and RR polls, had it as 57%-36% and 54%-38%. It would be conjecture, at this point, to suggest the most recent CB shows any sort of trend. I believe they have another one next week.

              Bear in mind too the June CB poll (the only CB or RR taken with the Nats under Muller's leadership) had those blocs at 56%-41%, so it would be difficult to argue Collins has made any significant positive impact at this stage.

        • observer 4.1.2.5

          Of course a National win is possible. Nobody has voted yet, complacency is always a danger.

          But I'd like to see the numbers that would produce that result. Put them in here, if you like:

          https://elections.nz/stats-and-research/mmp-seat-allocation-calculator/

        • Tricledrown 4.1.2.6

          Good motivational speech millay no complacency.

        • Anne 4.1.2.7

          Sometimes you remind me of this fella millsy. Thank goodness no-one ever took notice of him:

        • Gabby 4.1.2.8

          There s a lot of hate, mostly Hammish Proz mind you.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.1.2.9

          @4.1.2

          “National are going to win this one. I feel it.”

          Someones in denial : )

    • Dennis Frank 4.2

      It may be a fun fact inside your head – but in the real world we have a PM called Jacinda, and MM died earlier this year at age 51…

      • millsy 4.2.1

        I am just saying that when Moore lost the 1990 election, he was 41. Jacinda is 40. If/when she loses, she will become the youngest ever ex-PM in NZ history.

        • Dennis Frank 4.2.1.1

          Fair enough. I don't expect her to lose the election, but I concede she's being clever in acting as if she can't cope with tv debates, maybe too clever! So mainstreamers who always back a winner will shift back to National. Jacinda will win the noble loser segment of the electorate by default – numbers there are considerable though, so it could be a clever gamble…

      • Rapunzel 4.2.2

        71

    • greywarshark 4.3

      I think commenters need to be careful about their tone in these last few weeks. If watching the USA and commenting unfavourably about that, it seems likely that the depression about their election carries over into comments about ours.
      O.U.R.S. ** NZ **!

      Can we please look for all the good reasons and positives that will get us a pretty decent Party/Coalition into New Zealand parliament. We need to watch our enemies in NZ which will try to prevent that, and not be distracted. I care about getting the Left to a position where it heals and recovers completely from being tasered by the Right, doesn't everybody?

      The USA is a sinking ship, and the advice for vessels around from experienced seafarers, is not to be dragged into the trough by the physics of its going down.

    • Tricledrown 5.1

      Just shows how much power big money has in NZ.How the tentacles have spread.

    • aom 5.2

      Thanks for the link milsy – very informative. This is an example of the dishonest manipulations that makes one wonder how long democracy will last as a viable concept in NZ.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1

        The rich don't want democracy. This was proved when, just a few short years ago, they tried to get rid of MMP and replace it with a far less democratic system.

      • Anne 5.2.2

        The seeds of the operational tactics within the ACT Party had their origins in the 1960s and 70s within the Labour Party. The personnel were the same group who ended up splitting from Labour in the late 1980s and early 1990s. No prizes for guessing who the ringleaders were.

        The emphasis back in the 60s/70s was to manipulate the outcome of candidate selections by using banned stacking tactics both inside the local committees and the membership at large. The favoured method was to sign up people who lived outside of the electorate which was against the rules of the day and give them bogus addresses to make them appear legit. It should be remembered those were times of mass membership so it was difficult to keep a check on the practice.

        The best known example lay in the seat of Hunua at the 1978 General Election. Malcolm Douglas (younger brother of Roger Douglas) won it on the night by several hundred votes. National's candidate (a newcomer by the name of Winston Peters) sought a judicial recount which brought to light a large number of votes from Pacific Islanders who were not entitled to a vote because they came to NZ less than 12 months earlier. The outcome a few controversial months later was: Malcolm Douglas lost and the seat handed to the new young Turk, Winston Peters.

        The rest is history.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2.1

          National's candidate (a newcomer by the name of Winston Peters) sought a judicial recount which brought to light a large number of votes from Pacific Islanders who were not entitled to a vote because they came to NZ less than 12 months earlier.

          And thus the reason why voting isn't secret. Unknown to the wider community? Yes. Secret? No.

          • Anne 5.2.2.1.1

            To my knowledge, the information concerning their ethnicity was never made public. It was something which presumably trickled down from the party hierarchy over time. I learnt about it further down the track.

            Not to blame the Pacific Islanders who were new to the country and unlikely to be proficient in English. It would have been the fault of one or two unscrupulous volunteers who signed them up without checking whether they were eligible or not – or may be they were aware of their ineligibility but didn't tell them.

    • Dennis Frank 5.4

      That's an excellent history of ACT with perceptive political insights as bonus!

      Artificial grassroots organisations – nicknamed ‘astroturfs’ – are designed to mask the sponsors of a message or organization so to give the impression that there is support from grassroots participants. Often, they help politicians to find and mobilize a sympathetic public and create the image of public consensus where there is none.

      Using illusions as political weapons is as old as the hills but providing this update on method is helpful to all politicos. Remember that political scientists really get funding to research public opinion on anything. Therefore there will always be political advantage in using simulations!

    • Dennis Frank 5.5

      If Act had an original idea, it would be lonely.

      Conservatives conserve what they believe to be sound thinking from the past. Having an original idea would be viewed as deviant & likely to get you ostracised.

      Nonethless, ACT sometimes pretends to be radical right, to seek advantage in product differentiation, to make National seem stodgy in comparison.

      The way to do it is to recycle traditional thinking from a different period of history that had long ago fallen into disfavour. That can always be revived due to the congenital aversion to learning from history that mainstreamers routinely display. Thus history repeats itself.

      The left & right adopted neoliberalism as an antidote to socialism in the 1980s, so ACT has the intellectual challenge now of brand differentiation. Liberalism originated in the 17th century, prospering as political philosophy nowadays only in Canada. ACT's brand will seem faded unless regeneration occurs via ideological improvisation…

    • RedBaronCV 5.6

      Interested to see Trish Sherson's name mentioned in relation to ACT. Wasn't she one of the "expert" panel on last nights debate?

    • Wensleydale 5.7

      Jesus. I knew Act were toxic, and Jordan Williams was an odious troglodyte, but who knew the rot went so deep? David Seymour is obviously little more than a smiley face drawn on a landmine. They don't give a toss about what sort of system we have in place, just so long as they're at the top creaming the rewards, and anything serving to further facilitate that is perfectly fine. This is probably what offends me most about politics — the casual deceit. The belief that anything is permissible just so long as it doesn't reflect badly on the party (don't get caught, basically.)

      • Anne 5.7.1

        They were committing the unlawful act of dividing up donations into convenient packages so that they didn't have to declare them when the idea was little more than a twinkle in National's eye. That was in the 1990s and iirc the packages were $9,999.

    • SPC 5.8

      So John Bishop is from the ACT NZTU stable, Stuff portrays him simply as a former journalist. And the Hellbrokes …

  5. Tricledrown 6

    Goldsmith says we need targeted rates for individual problems could that be like having a fuel tax in Auckland to pay for infrastructure.

  6. RedLogix 7

    Ashley Bloomfield has done a good job with managing COVID, but his logic on the yachts that need to leave the Pacific soon is falling apart:

    The Ministry of Health said the primary pre-requisite for yachts coming into New Zealand was not about the quarantine period, or whether it could track them via AIS, which it was not able to do anyway – it was whether they are allowed entry into New Zealand or not.

    It said recently it was also concerned about managing an influx of up to 1000 people on the several hundred yachts that wanted to come here.

    So if it's NOT about quarantine and the potential COVID risk, then exactly what is the problem here? Because absent the current crisis the answer is yes, these people would absolutely have qualified to enter NZ as visitors.

    And the excuse that they cannot 'track these boats' is utter disproven by the experts who just demonstrated how it's done.

    And if an influx of 1000 new arrivals over a period of maybe about a month is too much to handle, why are we allowing three to four times that number to arrive every week by plane?

    The excuses now have just become circular arguments rapidly vanishing up Bloomfield's backside.

    • Koff 7.1

      An American-Kiwi female sailor and her partner have just arrived in Opua after a 10 day rough sea crossing from the Gold Coast. The MoH, cops, and customs met them on the Q dock at Opua and they were whisked off all wearing masks to an isolation hotel in Auckland for the remaining 4 days of quarantine, plus a Covid test. All very efficient but they did get paperwork done before they left Southport. We tracked them all the way across on AIS and they were in touch with Northland radio (HF) every day too, so not difficult to do.

      • RedLogix 7.1.1

        By contrast the treatment of the German crew who arrived here in unfortunate circumstances is shameful. They've been criminalised, imprisoned and deported for making an error of judgement.

        They departed at a time when the govt was giving every indication that applications for an exemption would be treated favourably. They actually did apply (this is important to note, they were attempting to do the right thing here) and it was only after it was too late to turn back that they discovered it had been rejected.

        At that point they had no good alternate choices left to them, so they carried on to NZ in the hope that we might treat them with some intelligence and compassion. But apparently not.

        Probably they were naively taken in by our reputation as a kind and welcoming country.

        • Andre 7.1.1.1

          You got any backup for your assertion that "the govt was giving every indication that applications for an exemption would be treated favourably. " at the time they departed? It was early July when they left French Polynesia (a two month 18 day passage and a late September arrival), and I certainly don't recall anything other than a firm "borders are closed to all but citizens and permanent residents" message from the government at the time.

          • RedLogix 7.1.1.1.1

            The claim is made here by Guy Chester:

            The Ocean Cruising Club has been lobbying the government since April, but under Covid-19 restrictions, cyclone refuge is not considered a reason for border exemption.

            Guy Chester, a Roving Rear Commodore with the club, has been fighting to get the hundreds of people a safe place to spend the season.

            He said in June, they were told there would be a border exemption process for humanitarian and compelling reasons.

            But last week they discovered cyclone refuge was not included.

            Chester said they felt betrayed by the government.

            "We've run out of time," he said

            The club had been working with the New Zealand health processes, talking to officers, said Chester.

            "We've now got the situation where we have just been told that cyclone refuge is not a compelling reason and exemptions will not be granted, in which case, it's now vital."

            The cyclone season starts on 1 November, but with most boats between 2 to 6 weeks away from somewhere safe, it had now reached crisis point, he said.

            "I'm distressed, I've been working on behalf of all the yachts and I'm feeling a huge responsibility for people's safety, and we haven't got a solution.

            "I'm feeling betrayed because I was telling people 'look it's coming, just don't panic yet, we've got a letter saying it's going to be okay, they are just trying to get everything in line'," he said.

            So apparently there is a letter in existence supporting the contention that exemptions would be considered. The OCC is a serious outfit that's been around for a good many years. I'd be inclined to treat their word at face value until proven otherwise.

            • Andre 7.1.1.1.1.1

              So they made an unwarranted assumption that "cyclone refuge" would be included as a compelling or humanitarian reason.

              I have yet to see anything persuasive showing serious cyclone risk actually exists for French Polynesia and what little evidence I have found suggests that there is no heightened risk.

              So it appears to me that people are blowing smoke to try to get their special pleading for special privileges approved, which naturally gets people's backs up and discounts what legitimate arguments they do in fact have.

              • RedLogix

                So they made an unwarranted assumption that "cyclone refuge" would be included as a compelling or humanitarian reason.

                So next time I catch you out in an unwarranted assumption, do you think we should imprison and deport you back to the USA?

                I have yet to see anything persuasive showing serious cyclone risk actually exists for French Polynesia

                Many of these boats are NOT in FP, but further downwind and definitely in the wrong place. The exact number is not clear, but it's possibly several hundred.

                And the ones piled up in FP (presumably because they don't want to sail into the high risk cyclone zone without any way to escape it), are facing pressures locally. Overcrowding, shortage of safe harbour and storage, expiring visas, or simply running out of money … all mean they have compelling reasons to get their vessels to NZ or Aus as well.

                • Andre

                  If I made an unwarranted assumption that I would be admitted after fronting up to the border of a country that has explicitly stated its borders were closed to me during a pandemic, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to be deported after first being jailed and having my stuff confiscated.

                  The Germans in question, who appear to have been the only ones so far to have made the unwarranted assumption that they would be granted special privileges, apparently departed from Taiohae. Which is well in the northeast of French Polynesia, which appears to be the lowest risk area of already very low risk French Polynesia.

                  BTW, I'm a dual national. So if I made unwarranted assumptions about getting special privileges and laws being bent or broken for me here in New Zealand, jail time would definitely be on the cards, but not deportation.

                  • RedLogix

                    If I made an unwarranted assumption that I would be admitted after fronting up to the border of a country that has explicitly stated its borders were closed to me during a pandemic

                    Only the situation was evidently more ambiguous than this. And keep in mind they didn't just randomly 'front up' with no attempt at applying for permission or notice to the NZ authorities. They simply made the mistake of sailing themselves into a situation where there were no other available destinations. There is clearly no criminal or reckless intent here.

                    Lots of countries, with a few honourable exceptions like Colombia and Panama, have treated the sailing community with high-handed, ignorant officiousness. Far too many bureaucrats have found it politically safer to just say 'no' than employ a modicum of common sense and compassion.

                    Nice to see which side our resident Democrat supporter has lined up on.

                • RedBaronCV

                  So how is FP's visa policy, putting everyone in limited anchorages,not building sufficent storage or running out of money(how does NZ fix that!!) become a reason to grant entry to NZ.

                  28 weeks to get organised.

                  • RedLogix

                    28 weeks to do what exactly?

                    As with all the armchair admirals opining on this, every single suggestion you've made so far is totally disconnected with the reality on the water.

                    The reasonable thing for them to have done is exactly what they have done. Wait for the NZ or Aus authorities to understand the problem properly and allow them to complete the trip across the Pacific.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      So RL where are the links about the cyclone risk that have been asked for previously? And as far as I can recollect you are not a bluewater sailor yourself?

                      I think the NZ and Australian authorities understand perfectly well.

                    • RedLogix

                      What exactly are you asking for? It's well understood that if you're in FP the risk from cyclones may well be relatively low (but not zero). But that doesn't mean there are no storms, or adverse weather events that could easily wreck an unmanned boat moored in an exposed position.

                      And of course you're ignoring the fact that some hundred or so boats are not in FP and further downwind in island groups that really are subject to a real risk of cyclone.

                      I may not be a blue water sailor, but I'm damned certain I've more sailing experience and know more about it than you do.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "I may not be a blue water sailor, but I'm damned certain I've more sailing experience and know more about it than you do."

                      @RedBaronCV – why can't you just shut up, you bloody peasant wink

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Love it Drowsy!

                      On the other hand I have now read volumes of yachting mags, weather sites, cruising tips stats and a bunch of other unrelated junk. Did you know there were 500 yachts in FP in March, hard storage there cost 1000 euro a month (2015) etc etc. Much interest but little use.

              • RedBaronCV

                Agree Andre with the blowing smoke – these people have had 28 weeks to get themselves organised with boat storage or safe anchorage and onboard security and then to organise a plane fare out. Plus there is no evidence of heightened cyclone risk.

                If this Chester bloke has been dangling a false hope to them then responsibility falls on him. I'm actually starting to wonder if he is being paid. I also find that the uncritical acceptance of his press release by our MSM a bit disturbing but put lack of pushback down to time and insufficient research.

                Possible covid free status on arrival is not an argument for entry to NZ.

                • RedLogix

                  these people have had 28 weeks to get themselves organised with boat storage or safe anchorage and onboard security and then to organise a plane fare out.

                  There is no such thing as 'safe anchorage' for any length of time, left for more than a few days, even a change of wind direction can easily cause a boat to drag anchor onto shore. Or the locals might decide to loot an unguarded vessel, it happens everytime a boat is wrecked within days. There is a really limited number of storm safe marina's and hard stands anywhere in the Pacific, so we can safely discount this option for probably 80% or more of the boats.

                  And if you read the linked article above, it turns out by no means all of these boats are in FP, a large number are further west deep into the high risk zone.

                  • RedBaronCV

                    Cherry picking comments again RL. They could hire a security guard from the locals.
                    Why is it that in your eyes there are no possible alternatives ever to NZ entry??

                    • RedLogix

                      Righto, suddenly you're aware of the availability, reliability, capacity and costs of marine security guards across the Pacific island groups? And their amazing ability to secure vessels from cyclone, or even just regular storm, damage. (Yes not all of them are 'safely' located in FP.)

                      Again another suggestion disconnected from reality.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Aha and where is the money for the lawyers coming from?

                      I understand you are not a bluewater sailor but you are aware of these things?

                  • Pat

                    the point of the 28 weeks is that these yachts almost certainly departed safe locations many weeks AFTER NZ closed its borders so they did so knowing they potentially were going to be stranded in the zone they are now in at the time they are there…..NZ has no obligation to mitigate their poor decision making.

                    • RedLogix

                      You have no clue as to exactly when each vessel departed, where from, or what information was available to them at the time, or even what reasonable conclusions could be drawn from it at the time. It's wrong to build a generic case to deny entry to them all based on this idea.

                      Again you have to love all the people here being so wise in hindsight.

                    • Pat

                      no , conveniently for you I cannot say at the individual level where or when departures were but I can be confident the fact the border was closed was known and that the overwhelming majority of these vessels wernt in their current location when that happened.

                      You can continue to underplay the precedent setting effect of allowing hundreds of these vessels into NZ but the fact remains that should they be allowed to do so then it will be used to promote further exceptions by various interests that will place quarantine at risk.

                    • RedLogix

                      You can continue to underplay the precedent setting effect of allowing hundreds of these vessels into NZ

                      In other words your entire case comes down to perceived political considerations only. In the meantime non-citizens are arriving every day with exemptions, and you aren't stressing about the 'precedent setting' effect they're having.

                      And in my view the ground is shifting. These travel constraints are not permanent; they will over time be opened up in a controlled an intelligent fashion. There is no medical reason to think NZ can or even should try to keep COVID out of NZ forever, when there is every reason to think it will be endemic globally for years to come.

                      The initial lockdowns, constraints and quarantines are not an end unto themselves. They are best thought of as short-term measures to buy us time to organise more sophisticated responses. And these I would argue are now either available to us now, or already in place.

                      So from that perspective, no I'm not concerned about any 'precedent setting' effect.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "The initial lockdowns, constraints and quarantines are not an end unto themselves. They are best thought of as short-term measures to buy us time to organise more sophisticated responses."

                      @RL: As long as "more sophisticated responses" don't involve dialling back the current successful measures to "try to keep COVID out of NZ forever" (elimination of COVID-19 in NZ), then it’s all good. I'm at greater risk (statistically) from serious COVID-19 harm than most, and love the freedom that comes with successfully keeping this deadly virus out of general circulation in NZ – long may that last.

                      If some judge that to be a selfish position, then so be it – on my list of personal priorities, health is way above wealth.

                    • Pat

                      "So from that perspective, no I'm not concerned about any 'precedent setting' effect."

                      just as you (who as I understand it resides in Australia) are not concerned about precedent setting, i am unconcerned about financial loss to foreign nationals who make poor decisions

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1.1.1.2

              "They departed at a time when the govt was giving every indication that applications for an exemption would be treated favourably." [@7.1.1]

              "So apparently there is a letter in existence supporting the contention that exemptions would be considered." [@7.1.1.1.1]

              RL, did you omit 'favourably' (in the second quote) by mistake, i.e. does that apparent letter indicate that applications for exemptions would be treated favourably? Or was it a mistake to include ‘favourably‘ in the first quote?

              • RedLogix

                That's the clear imputation from Guy Chester's comments. There was reference elsewhere (I can't be arsed finding it again) to a TV interview where Ardern made the same indication that she thought there was a reasonable case.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Even if I was an experienced yachtie, I'd be reluctant to embark on a lengthy sea voyage on the basis of a "reasonable case", or a "treated favourably" during a global pandemic – I'd need something more concrete than that. But then I'm naturally risk averse when it comes to apparent govt support. I suppose that these yachties judged the cyclone risk to be greater than the bureaucratic risk, and acted accordingly.

                  • RedLogix

                    Yeah really easy to be wise in hindsight. And to be fair so far only one boat has gotten itself into this position so far. Everyone else has been sitting tight hoping for an official exemption.

                    Way too easy for people who don't have any skin in the game to be judgemental.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Being judgemental just seems to come naturally to some. We should all be thankful that more yachties didn't misjudge their situation.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Arriving in any country without having a valid visa is not "an error of judgement" it's a fundamental requirement ( and even then entry may not be granted) and not to have one is utter stupidity or outright arrogance.

                    • RedLogix

                      not to have one is utter stupidity or outright arrogance.

                      So having applied for a visa, with reasonable grounds to think it would be granted, and then discovering too late that it wasn't going to be … exactly what would you have done?

                      I'm 100% certain you would have done exactly the same thing, keep on sailing in the only practical direction and hope the NZ authorities might treat your error with some understanding and compassion.

                      You know while this topic is scarcely the most important political concern in the world right now, it sure is flushing out the mean spirited, closet authoritarians around here.

                    • McFlock

                      Hell of an error, accidentally travelling 2000km to where you know you aren't wanted. "Got up, bit tired, deck was wet, and the next thing we know we're in New Zealand. Whoops."

        • Gabby 7.1.1.2

          They set out before they knew whether their application was successful? Seems a bit … audacious.

          • RedBaronCV 7.1.1.2.1

            Yep – countries protect their borders pretty solidly against unauthorised incursions. If you don't then the uninvited would be arriving daily. Trying to pass this off as a "be kind" situation is ridiculous.

            And the Germans seem to have had a number of shifting stories plus access to $50k?

    • Tricledrown 7.2

      These sailors have huge amounts of money they don't want to abandon their boats they could do so and fly home why should we be the only country to take these boat people perhaps Australia could put them up in Nauru or Manus Island.

      • greywarshark 7.2.1

        The Australians have been sending quite a few NZs back so must have some empty accommodation for others who don't pass the litmus test.

      • RedLogix 7.2.2

        These sailors have huge amounts of money

        Again typical leftie resentment at anyone a bit wealthier than them eh?

        In reality cruisers come from a very wide range of financial positions. Sure the marinas look full of expensive boats, but 80% of them never or rarely go anywhere. These are not the people out blue water sailing.

        Real sailors are a much more mixed bunch than you imagine. From young people having adventures on the bones of their arse, to fairly ordinary middle class people who've sold up everything and put it into their boat, to people who built the boat themselves over many years and are now slowly pottering around the world, to some who, fairly enough, are reasonably well off and the fairly large catamaran they own reflects this. But rarely would the boat any of them live on, might have a resale value higher than the equivalent home they might have otherwise lived in on land.

        The super rich, the ones with 'huge amounts of money' are just not part of this set.

      • Koff 7.2.3

        Whoah! I live on a yacht. It's worth about a quarter of the average NZ house price and I certainly can't afford to buy a house. I sailed around the world on a yacht that I sold a month ago for bugger all, about enough to buy a crappy caravan. Most yachties mooching around in the Pacific don't have much money – they just like doing it. It's as about as environmentally friendly as you can get and cheap to live if you fix things for yourself. As for the selfish yachtie saga, I doubt there are any yachts further west than French Polynesia. The Cooks, Tonga, Samoa, Vanuatu, the Solomoms, New Caldonia are all closed. Oz and NZ are only letting in citizens and residents. Fiji is only open to people with deep pockets and the very few cyclone holes there are already full of yachts that have got stuck there because their owners can't get back to them, often the only home the have. Most yachties with any sense won't leave French Poly which is relatively safe as long as you stay on your boat and move it if the weather craps out.

        • RedLogix 7.2.3.1

          Thanks for this, very helpful.

          My only quibble is that Guy Chester has indicated that there are in fact quite a few boats who are downwind of FP. They probably arrived there before the implications of Covid became clear to them.

        • RedBaronCV 7.2.3.2

          Thanks Koff.

          But surely there can be no real reason for boats to be downwind of FP?

          The Pacific has looks like it has been closed since the end of the last hurricane season April 2020 (Koff could confirm that?) so is Chester just making stuff up again – like cyclone danger in FP? or have yachts somehow managed to avoid the closed borders and wind up further west

          And why does RL agree with this excellent set of comments but disagrees with everyone else saying much the same thing?

          • RedLogix 7.2.3.2.1

            The clue is in Koff's last line:

            Most yachties with any sense won't leave French Poly which is relatively safe as long as you stay on your boat and move it if the weather craps out.

            Which assumes people can do this. There may be any number of reasons why just sitting on their boat for another year isn't an option.

            If nothing else we've also established elsewhere that the FP authorities have new regulations that prohibit anchoring anywhere in the entire archipeligo for more than a few hours, and there are nowhere near enough safe official moorings for everyone at present. Online there is a conflicting information on exactly how this is being enforced, but it's yet another confounding factor in this mess.

            • RedBaronCV 7.2.3.2.1.1

              Chester goes on about cyclones not mooring regulations.

              Then Chester needs the address of the diplomats of the various nations in FP. We are not responsible for the rules in FP. If a cyclone turns up and they can't move to islands further south in the archipelago out of harm's way then that is on France's head.

              And moving out means going south in FP.

    • McFlock 7.3

      As a commenter put it a couple of years ago:

      But would anyone have intended that the notion of refugee should apply to entire classes of people arriving in a potentially unconstrained numbers for largely economic reasons? Clearly there has to be a threshold here; otherwise it becomes a loophole to defeat the right of any nation to determine it’s immigration policy.

      and:

      The thing is, Australia is full of immigrants; I’m one. But almost all of them arrived legally, via a reasonably challenging and expensive process; citizenship is valued and respected. Illegal boat people may well arrive by a differently challenging and expensive process, but one that nonetheless devalues the legal path.

      • RedLogix 7.3.1

        Idiot. We're talking about people who are visitors. Not migrants or refugees trying to settle long term. Quite a different threshold applies here.

        And visitors whose wallets we'd normally welcome cheerfully.

        • McFlock 7.3.1.1

          You don't know that they're short term visitors. Hundreds or even thousands of people who will be coming in, wanting work visas, and maybe hanging around for the duration of migration restrictions around the world because they can't afford to use a marina in French Polynesia.

          • RedBaronCV 7.3.1.1.1

            I'm actually starting to wonder if all this isn't being run as some sort of right wing stalking horse to put holes in the quarantine regulations.

            They appear to have wanted quarantine on their yachts ( so private quarantine) and the right to enter because they are covid free. Compelling reasons come down the list and this would be a very nice little wedge and precedent ( thanks Pat!) for putting legal holes in our border controls

            First we have the Chester bloke issuing all sorts of danger predictions in multiple press releases plus a pretty solid social media from RL on here. Reddit also has threads plus some interesting info on how difficult it is to ensure hundreds of boats remain in quarantine and that Fiji etc are only 7 days away.

            Then we have the Germans arrive after what seems an unusually long passage – any deliberate delays?- (ta Drowsy) just after the formal rejection. They gave a range of reasons including have $50k to spend. Are they a fortuitous or deliberate stalking horse and if so had they received any benefits or encouragement from others? Does anyone know if they have actually left the country and if there were any legal or other appeals against the deportation?

            Then we have stories in RNZ about tracking the yachts so we know where they have been. Further softening up?

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427309/electronic-tracking-of-yachts-possible-legal-argument-for-their-entry-to-new-zealand

            I guess the next question is who would benefit from a yachting hole being blown in our border controls?

            The cyclone season ends around the end of April so that's after most countries shut borders. So at the end of April the yachts should have been out of the danger zone and with borders closed they should have found it difficult to move elsewhere. If they are now in zone they have managed to move over the winter. Fiji has the blue lanes only 7 days from here – are these the yachts wanting to come here – in which case how many of them have wealthy owners aboard who are trying to sneak in the back door?

            • RedLogix 7.3.1.1.1.1

              Delusional jibberish.

            • McFlock 7.3.1.1.1.2

              I think most main drivers are the aquatic version of NIMBYs. They like our border controls in principle, just not when it applies to them.

              There's the generalised entitlement, and the idea that they should be let in because they can't see any good reason to keep them out. It's a privilege, not a right.

              The maritime lawyer is lobbying for his patch, the club is lobbying for its members, fair call. But there's nothing overly special or pressing about the boat peoples' situation. The economic cost of leaving their boats behind sucks if they have to do it, but that's the same risk as any other person we've turned away from the border. Economic.

          • RedLogix 7.3.1.1.2

            Almost all yachties arrive on a standard tourist visa. Spinning silly scenarios out of thin air just makes you look foolish.

            There is any amount of info online to support my broad case. I'd link to some of it, but I know from experience with you that you'd make a point of not reading it.

            • McFlock 7.3.1.1.2.1

              lol again, when people bring up the sailors who aren't rich and need to pick up work to maintain their boats, you claim they're tourists who don't need to work for an entire season.

              But when people call them rich, you talk about all the poor boaties who have to lay up and work to repair their boats over winter.

              But apparently almost all of them are on a tourist visa? I guess fuck all of them need to work for a living, then. So they can take the loss if they have to fly out of the Pacific, rather than sail.

              • RedLogix

                In the normal course of events there will be some who would quite legitimately have gotten work visas in order to rebuild their funds to carry on.

                But these of course are not usual times so most would likely store their vessel safely in NZ and fly home until the future became clear.

                But doing the same thing from places in the Pacific pretty much invites several hundred boat wrecks and a massive personal loss that might satisfy your resentful urges, but achieve nothing else of use.

                And all completely avoidable.

                • McFlock

                  Yeah, obviously in a time of covid people who spend months away from home at a time will want to return to, say, the UK rather than stay in one of the safest countries in the world, covid-wise. /sarc

                  You have no idea what they will do. There could be potentially hundreds of people who will be arguing visas for months, needing work under the table to live, and so on, even if none of them have covid and need treatment.

                  And there might not even be a cyclone in FP this year.

              • Stuart Munro

                You might want to contrast their treatment with that of the backpackers stranded here when we went into lockdown. Their visas were extended and considerable trouble gone to to repatriate them if it could be managed. Yachties deserve as much, and one would hope NZ yachties would also be able to enter friendly ports, if they comply with quarantine regulations on arrival.

                These kinds of quarantine protocols have existed for centuries – our very word quarantine comes from a forty day isolation imposed on ships to halt the plague. If the ship complied it was not penalised.

                Now that the immediate panic of Covid is, at least for the moment, in abeyance, it's time to make sensible provision for unexpected arrivals by air or sea, that are both robust and humane. There is surely a port or an island that can handle crews isolating as a prelude to repatriation without having a cow about it.

                • McFlock

                  Who's having a cow? I don't have a problem with the current regulations. And the visitors at the time of lockdown had no way to depart and had already fulfilled whatever covid risk they presented.

                  This isn't the middle ages. We can do more than pray if someone gets sick on their way to us as a port of convenience. But that puts our staff and our resources at risk. What is the compelling reason to take that risk?

                  The boaties have two ways to leave FP, by sea or by air. They're not fleeing a war zone, and they're not likely to be murdered if they go back home.

                  I would have thought that boaties, of all people, would understand the various ethical issues raised by the Lifeboat Problem.

                  • RedLogix

                    Are you really suggesting the NZ cannot handle one group about 1000 arrivals over and above the 3 – 4,000 already arriving every week? And this represents some kind of 'lifeboat problem' to a nation of over 5 million?

                    I try to respond to comments in good faith McFlock, but fuck me you make it hard sometimes.

                    The boaties have two ways to leave FP, by sea or by air.

                    And each has consequences. Leaving by air means that for most they will be abandoning their boat. I get it that you don’t give a shit, but it will be different for them. And of course these island nations get to deal with all the problems these abandoned boats will create.

                    Leaving by sea this late in the year now puts them increasingly into the higher risk cyclone zone, and I have to guess you don’t give a shit about that either.

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, seriously? The yachts have to be escorted in because they can't be trusted. They can go to almost any coastal town in NZ. Each vessel with only a few people on board, who then have to be tested.

                      Contrast that with the aircraft. Planes don't even depart for NZ until they know they're allowed to land.

                      Your sudden concern for the island nations is touching, even if it still smacks of convenient self interest. But they'll be happy, because according to you they'll loot the boats.

                    • RedLogix

                      Your sudden concern for the island nations is touching,

                      You aren't keeping up, I first mentioned this aspect a while back. Still just let us all know if you think it's a valid concern or not.

                      After all you were getting all anxious about a bit of coral damage last night, so maybe boats being broken up on a reef and spilling hundreds of litres of diesel, plus creating a wreck to clean up would register with you.

                      The yachts have to be escorted in because they can't be trusted. They can go to almost any coastal town in NZ.

                      Really? And this is based on what evidence? That arriving yachts regularly turn up at coastal towns that are not official ports of entry?

                      These are people who just want to get their boat to a safe place and then work out what to do next in a changed world. The idea they'd put it all at risk for some madcap illegal entry and put everything at risk for zero gain whatsoever is just nutso.

                      The main reason why people break quarantine rules is that they have dying relatives or funerals they desperately want to attend. I'd be incredibly surprised if this applied to anyone in this group.

                      Besides our Air Force and Maritime services are better organised than you think; they routinely know where all these vessels are long before they arrive. And if they have AIS turned on, which cruising yachts absolutely do as a rule, it's even easier.

                      I know for certain that the Australian’s track every yacht is pretty much after it gets closer than New Caledonia, and I’ve no reason to think the Kiwis would be any less capable.

                      I'm assuming you're making reference to the Anita with the German crew, because yachts are never normally 'escorted' into port like that. If that's what really happened I can only think what an absurd and pathetic over-reaction to that situation.

                      Just like putting the three of them into prison before deporting them, because why? Exactly what kind of 'flight risk' did they represent? And where the hell where they going to go? It seems to me rationality is flying out the window on this.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      RL, apart from a couple of "you don't give a shit" accusations, and a sprinkling of "Idiot", "Delusional jibberish" and some personal jibes (no pun intended). you've been remarkably restrained in presenting and defending your opinion that yachties in FP who are not NZ citizens/residents deserve special consideration when they apply to travel to NZ.

                      "Again another suggestion disconnected from reality."

                      "… it sure is flushing out the mean spirited, closet authoritarians around here."

                      "Spinning silly scenarios out of thin air just makes you look foolish."
                      "I know from experience with you that you'd make a point of not reading it."

                      "Like RBCV you're reducing yourself to spinning delusional fantasies."

                      "Again typical leftie resentment at anyone a bit wealthier than them eh?"

                      Now "I know" you're just calling it as you see it, but wouldn't it be awfully tiring to maintain that perceived level of resentment – so glad I'm not a "typical leftie". It's great that everyone is presenting their views in a forthright fashion without losing their rag.

                      "With all that is going on in the world, now is not the time to talk about boats. While much of our industry, our livelihoods and our neighborhoods have been insulated from the impact of recent days, what is happening matters to us and we want to take a stand in support of the Black Lives Matter movement."
                      https://stephenswaring.com/silence-is-not-an-option/

                      https://www.companynewshq.com/coronavirus-news/millionaire-who-fled-victoria-for-queensland-on-superyacht-is-fined/

                      “All these wind sports are highly individual, and they produce a Zen-like experience,” said Felix Louis-Njai, a Crissy Field regular, adding that this particular form of Zen is poorly suited to the risk-averse. Notably one of the few people of color pursuing what is inarguably a white-dominated sport, Louis-Njai, a 40ish tech entrepreneur, had painted a Black Lives Matter logo across his sail.
                      “It would be disingenuous if I didn’t do that since there are not a lot of people out here that look like me,” Louis-Njai said."
                      https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/national-sports/sns-nyt-kitesurfing-windjamming-in-the-bay-20200906-zrbkxvrsk5aazevq2xs3bh3uem-story.html

                      "Following a summer when the nation once again takes stock of entrenched racism, Preston Anderson ’22 is making positive changes where he can—in his sport of sailing."
                      https://www.bowdoin.edu/news/2020/09/sailing-team-changes-an-exclusive-sport.html

                      "Terry, lounging in his Pabst Blue Ribbon swim trunks, said repeatedly his flag is not so much about “loving Trump,” the man, specifically. He talked instead about wanting to signal the things he’s against, laying out grievances with Black Lives Matter, the media and liberal “movements.” Lisa Terry said the Trump flag is an especially great way to make friends on the water."
                      https://www.tampabay.com/life-culture/2020/09/17/does-donald-trump-own-the-ocean/

                    • McFlock

                      Jesus christ, you really are plugging for business as usual in a time of pandemic.

                      And the Germans are locked up because that's what happens to illegal immigrants who are going to be deported immediately. I know they'd hate to miss their flight, so the cops will just make sure they get to the terminal on time.

                      As for your theories on quarantine breakers, some of them are indeed looking to get to funerals. Others just wanted to hit up the liquor store.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    This isn't the middle ages.

                    Quite – so we should be behaving like a friendly progressive modern state, not a cruel and stupid totalitarian one.

                    • McFlock

                      Now having border controls is totalitarian?

                      Let's say we let in all of these folks who no longer want to live in Tahiti. What's the next group we should let in for the same "friendly progressive modern" reasons? And the one after that?

                      Citizens, even residents, fine. But unless they're in actual phyisical peril they're not facing because of their own bloody minded exceptionalism, NZ isn't an option.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      @ McFlock

                      Are we behaving like a friendly progressive modern state? Are yachts arriving in numbers to tax our isolation capacity? Are other nations better placed geographically or epidemiologically to resolve the issue?

                      What's the next group we should let in for the same "friendly progressive modern" reasons? And the one after that?

                      That would be unskilled migrants and slave workers – but there's plenty of room for those already it seems. Since our worst scumbag employers are supported in their despicable wage suppression and union busting, there's no reason whatsoever not to be helping stranded yachties get home.

                    • solkta

                      helping stranded yachties get home.

                      ?? If this is "home" they can come here.

                    • McFlock

                      Yes. No (because we don't let them in). Yes – e.g. EU citizens can fly home from French Polynesia.

                      Not sure letting employers ousource supplies of oppressed labourers is a good reason to just rip up our border restrictions.

                      Oh, and we can barely manage the risks from clusters resulting from NZers returning home. Fucked if I'm going back to L2 or L3 just because some wanker wanted to leave their boat here for a few months.

            • RedBaronCV 7.3.1.1.2.2

              Despite asking for links RL I haven't seen too much back up for the compelling reasons or personal insults.

              I am starting to get a little concerned that the lobbying from the various groups has an organised or concerted element in which case is money involved and if so from whom? Are we also starting to get a tag along echo chamber from other parties – bit like the useful fools who spread some of the facebook stuff.

              I certainly have no trouble with individuals individually making their own point .

              • RedLogix

                I'll provide references if you make it clear what information you are sincerely looking for.

                But frankly it's all online, go and look for yourself and don't demand I educate you.

                Of course it's organized, the OCC website is easily found. It's their purpose to represent their members interests and it would be entirely odd if they were not lobbying on this issue.

                • RedBaronCV

                  I was actually talking the OCC plus other groups having an overall agenda. But anyway now the OCC are out perhaps they could shut up.

                  I also noticed that it is an organisation with nobody really below the rank of air commodore or was it rear admiral. Costs only fifty british pounds to join but I did wonder if Mr Chester was paid and if so by whom?

                  • RedLogix

                    I've no idea if Chester is paid or not. And I fail to see how that would change the situation.

                    The pompous club titles are just old yachting tradition. They take the piss out of it all the time.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Depends how much and by whom. Then he could over egg the compelling reasons so that a wealthy employer could ride in on the back of that.

              • greywarshark

                DrowsymKram – good comment, restrained. You said it well in:

                RL, apart from a couple of "you don't give a shit" accusations, and a sprinkling of "Idiot", "Delusional jibberish" and some personal jibes (no pun intended). you've been remarkably restrained in presenting and defending your opinion that yachties in FP who are not NZ citizens/residents deserve special consideration when they apply to travel to NZ.

                • greywarshark

                  StuartM there's no reason whatsoever not to be helping stranded yachties get home.

                  Are these NZ yachties – mainly or a few?

                  And how should we handle this group, and explain our kindness to them in comparison with some other Kiwis and those with rights to come here?

                  And just a thought, can the concern that has been expressed about these people, on boats, who are needy be carried through to the people in need in NZ, the poor families etc. who are in desperate straits. It would be good if people adopted that close interest and desire to help them as seen in this thread for the floating people.

          • RedLogix 7.3.1.1.3

            Do you have any evidence to support that especially silly claim.

            Like RBCV you're reducing yourself to spinning delusional fantasies.

            And affording a marina in FP is irrelevant if there are no berths available at any price.

            • RedBaronCV 7.3.1.1.3.1

              So you can confirm that there definitely is no organised element or opportunistic agendas? And if so how do you know this?

              And please cut the personal insults – playing the man and not the ball makes any argument look weak.

              • RedLogix

                Finally I think I understand the underlying problem here.

                Yes they are organized in the normal way any club is. Check out the OCC website.

                And given my own experience with this broad community in the past decade I'm totally certain there is no hidden agenda here.

                Human nature being a fallible thing there will be at least one or two shitheads out who I wouldn't want to advocate for, but on the whole we're talking about one of the more straightforward and responsible groups of people anywhere.

                • RedBaronCV

                  Even if they are responsible it still doesn't mean they have an entitlement to come to NZ.

                  Plus I have found some of the remarks about our pacific neighbours somewhat insulting. I'm sure they are doing their very best to look after these people and their possessions in circumstances where there may have limited resources

                  • RedLogix

                    No-one has claimed any kind of entitlement or right. They are simply putting up a reasonable case for an exemption, as others are doing and getting.

                    Even Jacinda thought they had a reasonable case at one point.

                    The hard reality is any abandoned yatch pretty much anywhere is that it gets looted within days. That's why no-one leaves a yacht unguarded for any more than a few hours.

                    As for FP the pile up of yachts there is palpably straining local resources and generosity.

                    Not my problem if you find facts confronting.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      Are you calling the FP people looters? That's pretty rude.

                      And yes I am sure people need to leave there. Planes fly out.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      And they got told "no" so I guess they have to live with it.

                    • RedLogix

                      @RBCV

                      People who go on board a boat that is not theirs and strip it of everything of value are by definition looters. This speaks to those individuals, it says nothing about a nation as a whole.

                      The problem here is that people are overthinking this. Guy Chester is doing PR 101, he's pushing a streamlined message about cyclones that Joe Public, most of whom know little about the details of sailing, can grasp.

                      In reality there are two distinct aspects to the issue and it's easy to blur the two. One is that because the Pacific borders all closed up in March/April there is a pile up of boats in FP. They are relatively safe there from cyclones, but because all the safe berths and storage filled up months ago, there really is no place to safely leave them. There may be no named cyclones as such, but perfectly commonplace tropical squalls and strong winds from an adverse direction can wreck a boat just as effectively.

                      Staying in FP indefinitely will not be feasible for most and flying home from there almost certainly ensures a total loss of their home and probably single largest asset.

                      The best option is to get them to NZ or Aus where they will be safe, but to do so after about 1 November entails sailing through an area where there really is a high risk of cyclones. Being caught at sea in the wrong quadrant of a major TC system is going to be catastrophic, and there will be no rescue.

                      Plus there will be, for a variety of reasons, boats that were already in the Western Pacific high risk zone when the borders closed. I could name two off the top of my head. If you want to second guess how many boats there are in this position altogether and how they arrived there, be my guest.

                      Guy Chester is guilty of oversimplifying the case, but given how many people even here do not understand the basics, for instance that yachts can't simply sail home in any old direction they like, it's not clear he would have had better off putting the case in more detail.

                      In the end all this means is these boats are going to be stuck or abandoned in these small island nations inappropriately, putting pressure on them that they haven't the resources to deal with. While in the meantime NZ is fully set up to accept them, with virtually zero COVID risk, just as they would have done in any other year.

                    • Ad

                      If any yacht like this put out an equivalent call in the middle of a storm, the New Zealand government would be duty bound to rescue them. I've had relatives get rescued by our Navy around the Kermadecs in a major storm, saving their lives.

                      So it would make a lot of sense for the New Zealand government to do the preventative option and bring them into managed quarantine and let them get refitted as they do annually.

                      The amount of maintenance these people have to put into their floating homes is far more than I put into my earth-bound home per year. It keeps thousands in work.

                    • RedLogix

                      That's a good point Ad. The NZ services have a proud and remarkable record of rescue, but they have their geographic limits.

                      As an aside I spent a week on a yacht about two years ago with an ex-Australian Air Force chopper pilot who holds the record for their longest distance rescue ever. It made for a very good work story.

                      But all this bloody yachting stuff aside, there is a serious point that Labour supporters need to start thinking about. While Ardern's COVID response back in March was admirable and fast on it's feet, even back then I was thinking that we needed keep on top of events as they moved.

                      And the ground is shifting, Case Fatality rates have plummeted as we get much better at treating it. I'm almost certain that as the importance of Vitamin D in hugely reducing the worst impacts becomes better understood this will mean we can protect the elderly and vulnerable far more easily. Along with effective testing and tracking systems we're in a different place to back in March.

                      Back then Level 4 lockdowns and total border closures were the right thing to do because they were the only tool available to us at the time. That's no longer the case, and Labour needs to start thinking about what to do when the next inevitable cluster strikes. The public appetite for lockdowns is not limitless, indeed I'd suggest even a third one is not going to be readily tolerated. The NZ public have been really good so far, but it could turn on a dime.

                      And against Ardern at the same time, undoing all her good work so far.

                    • RedBaronCV

                      @RL 9.05pm

                      Chester's message is not streamlined it's fact free idiocy bordering on fake news. NZ is not sending people to cyclone assisted deaths. Chester by promoting false outcomes is also responsible for giving false hope to people who may then delay making other realistic choices.

                      The Western Pacific has been closed since the last hurricane season. Therefore any boats in FP either stayed there last hurricane season or arrived after covid hit and borders closed.

                      Therefore how is any of this NZ's problem and why should we devote our scarce resources to a non problem by funding quarantine etc. Plus there have been some rather rude and off colour remarks about our pacific neighbours looting etc – that is an issue for local law enforcement if it even is an issue.

                      You may want to have our borders open using any wedge – clearly a number of peopleon here don't. Please do not start the name calling again – sign of losing really.

    • anker 7.4

      An extra 1000 people coming here who need quarantining who are not NZ citizens. FFS. They cannot just assume good old NZ won't mind. People such as myself mind a lot.

      I am really glad a hard line is being taken with the Germans. They were not given permission to come here, they decided they would come anyway. If their concerns about cyclones are genuine then they will be very glad to be winging their way back to their home country minus their yacht so no need to complain.

      They must have known of cyclone season when they set out from wherever. The pandemic has been raging since March which was when NZ closed our boarders. They had all that time to make their way back to where they came from.

      No sympathy at all and glad NZ is taking a hard line position.

      • RedLogix 7.4.1

        Another one flushed out. This is getting to be fun.

        It's also interesting watching people distort events to justify their banal reasoning. I'm not going to explain why these Germans got into this mess again because clearly you don't want to understand. Your self righteousness depends on it.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.4.1.1

          "Your self righteousness depends on it." I'm seeing it….in every comment

          • RedLogix 7.4.1.1.1

            Anders comment is wrong at every point. I've addressed each one before in detail, and I feel no particular obligation to type it out all again. Especially when I know it will be ignored.

            But just for a start, let's be completely clear that yachts don't go anywhere they please at any old time. For all practical purposes when you depart the Eastern Pacific you are commited to arriving in NZ or Aus sooner or later.

            • RedBaronCV 7.4.1.1.1.1

              In your opinion he is wrong… corrected it for you. And why are they leaving the eastern pacific if all the western borders are closed.

              • RedLogix

                Again you are overthinking this without knowing the exact circumstances of when they departed and what information they had at the time. But the fact that there are around 300 vessels in this position strongly suggests that most were unaware of the potential problem at the time when it mattered.

                Indeed the core issue now seems to be that the NZ govt held out promise that a solution would be forthcoming for months, before suddenly pulling the rug out from under everyone in the past week. Far too late for anyone to reconsider or effectively come up with a decent Plan B.

        • Pat 7.4.1.2

          Its a no risk strategy isnt it Red…reside in OZ and agitate for NZ to place their border control at risk….F..k off

          • RedLogix 7.4.1.2.1

            Exactly the same argument can be directed to the Australian government. Do you want me to make that case too?

            • Pat 7.4.1.2.1.1

              perhaps you should direct your energy to the place where you live…and let those of us that live here to determine our own path

            • Ad 7.4.1.2.1.2

              Pretty soon people like Pat and RedB and the rest of the punitive paranoiacs will want to see quarantine done in a special facility offshore.

              Just like the Christmas Island jail where they keep the New Zealanders.

              Judith Collins is already fast heading in that direction, of course.

              Or indeed test one’s liberal sympathies and just let the armed forces take the whole thing over completely, as proposed in New Zealand here:

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369642

              • RedBaronCV

                Funny how you know what others think – I have not advocated for off ashore quarantine – that's what people want small boats to be though.

                Based on the fact free zone Chester operates in – there are actually a number of alternatives that are never considered – people aren't being sent to a cyclone assisted death by us.

                As far as I am concerned NZ has a more use for it's resources than setting up quarantine for a small group of people not in danger. I feel the same about the endless overseas student pleas as well.

                I do get that RL and others just want the borders open to all their pet projects regardless of health or taxpayer cost issues. I and others obviously don't agree. There is no need for personal insults. Domain of the loser.

          • RedBaronCV 7.4.1.2.2

            My bottom line too Pat.

            The western pacific has been pretty much closed to incomers since the last hurricane season and anyone who was there would be assumedly be in a bolt hole and still be there. Anyone who is there now ( apart from Fiji blue lanes has broken the rules). Mr Chester seems to be a fact free zone in his own right.

            So as far as I am concerned they can all stay where they are now. Just trying to make up excuses to come here.

            My biggest concern is that some do break the rules and drag covid into the vulnerable island nations who are currently free of it.

            • Pat 7.4.1.2.2.1

              Hopefully given the passage times not, but either way that is not our responsibility (though we may be required to pick up the pieces)….as to the yachties, they have made a foolish decision…. there will be hundreds of other yacthies who looked at the situation and decided not to take the risk

            • Ad 7.4.1.2.2.2

              Here's a summary of the COVID19 entry and containment policies for French polynesia and other key island groups. Fair amount of similarity.

              https://fj.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/covid-19-information/

            • RedLogix 7.4.1.2.2.3

              So as far as I am concerned they can all stay where they are now.

              And thus dump the problem you don't want NZ to handle onto small islands totally not set up to deal with them in these numbers. Oh well that kind of puts a lie to your next contention:

              My biggest concern is that some do break the rules and drag covid into the vulnerable island nations who are currently free of it.

              Or maybe the other way around.

              And again your entire objection is based on the irrational projection that these people are riddled with COVID sailing from place to place spreading it like plague dogs. The reality is totally the opposite, they present an exceptionally low risk profile in every respect, far lower than the 3 – 4,000 people already arriving in NZ every week by plane.

              • RedBaronCV

                As Pat said from Australia you want to expose us to the various risks. The number of people who think they are so special and entitled that they need to be invited to come here is not small. These people didn't fit the rules, they can leave by plane from where they are and "no" is the answer which they need to accept.

                Being low risk isn’t a reason in itself.

                • RedLogix

                  As Pat said from Australia you want to expose us to the various risks.

                  Nope. As soon as I've completed my commitments here we will be returning to NZ. That could be as soon as December. So your allegation here is based on a bad assumption.

                  Being low risk isn’t a reason in itself.

                  And it's not irrelevant either. The only point of these restrictions is to minimise COVID transmission. If someone arrives pre-quarantined for three weeks and then undergoes further isolation and testing protocols on arrival to ensure they really do present zero risk … then exactly what are you objecting to? And why?

                  I honestly don't get it. It's hard to imagine any group of people presenting a lower risk entering our borders, there is really no rational reason to deny them the entry they'd normally be granted. Yet a handful here seem hell bent on creating problems for them.

                  I've said this before, it's always interesting to see what people do with a bit of moral authority. Well there is no question COVID and Labour's superb response so far has done just that for the left. So exactly what are you choosing to do with it? Because the COVID risk is just a smokescreen isn't it?

      • RedBaronCV 7.4.2

        They appear to have started from a no cyclone area but took a very long time to get here.Who knows what they were doing. So yes I agree with you but I'm afraid our resident non blue water sailor may have issues although I cannot trace his explanation as to how the germans got here.

        • RedLogix 7.4.2.1

          Why not just do a quick search and find the account of what happened. Instead of speculating.

          • RedBaronCV 7.4.2.1.1

            I have read it and it wasn't that informative. Is there a site that tracks lik e the planes?

      • Muttonbird 7.4.3

        I suggest they drop anchor here.

  7. Tricledrown 8

    Goldsmith trying to claim road building is still more important Ryan pointed out it just creates more congestion.

    Now he is saying Adrian Orr forcing banks to cover their debt with higher reserves is a good idea.

    Yet National have pushed back on that when Orr pushed the policy forward.

    Goldsmith umming and arhing. Well out of his depth.

    Goldsmith says ACT 's cost cutting will hurt the economy when it needs stimulus ACT want cuts and it will depend on how much support ACT gets.

    So in reality he is saying an ACT / National coalition will be bad for the economy.

  8. Dennis Frank 9

    The problem with The Spinoff is that "the organisation is staffed by a rabble of theologically illiterate heathens." https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/30-09-2020/one-day-you-will-die-and-you-will-have-to-tell-jesus-christ-the-things-youve-said-about-judith-collins/

    Judith Collins helpfully reminded Nicky Hager he would have to account for his “disgraceful” little books about her when it came time to “meet his maker”. Collins later clarified to Stuff’s Henry Cooke that we are “all going to die one day, Henry, and we’ll have to justify our actions”.

    “Eek,” said one Spinoff staffer. Another called the comments “pretty ugly”. These people don’t know that Collins was simply stating an orthodox theological position.

    As a former evangelical, I immediately recognised Collins’ words as the ones preached to me for most of my youth. They sprang from Matthew 25, where Jesus is sorting the “sheep”, who will enter heaven, from the “goats”, who will be cast into hell with Hager.

    The message of kindness has played a minor part in the campaign so far. Hasn't done Jacinda much good in the debates. But there is indeed theological relevance:

    “Jesus would not be happy about the things I’ve said about Judith Collins,” wrote Emily Writes, one of The Spinoff’s few religious insiders. “Yes, absolutely a defining fear of my life.”

    Francis Ritchie, a pastor from Hamilton, would not confirm that we will all have to recount everything we have said about Judith Collins at the Day of Judgement. However, he does advise everyone to treat Collins politely in future. “The New Testament is insistent on treating others well, including those we disagree with – even most especially them.”

    • francesca 9.1

      Do you honestly believe Collins is a Christian?

      Where was this morality based religion when she was exchanging the most vile emails with her good family friend Cameron Slater?

      An eye for an eye give back double vengeance stuff

      This isn't Christianity , Its old testament Judaic scripture

      Have you actually read Dirty Politics and the considerable part Collins played in it ?

      Her petty vilifying of Metiria and her jacket for godsake?

      Little surprise that Collins defends Trump…she's also going for the evangelical pro Israel vote , a large part of National's base she's shoring up

      This Christian bullshit from her is nothing but cynical vote garnering

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1

        Don't mistake me for someone who takes christianity seriously. surprise

        The point is her sheepdog act will herd the rightists due to resonance induced by her signalling. When someone has a belief system in their heads controlling them, you just push the right buttons to activate the pavlovian reflex.

        • greywarshark 9.1.1.1

          'Christianity bullshit' – hubris from you Dennis Frank. All religions start out one way and get interpreted by followers so the human hand is there translating from the divine, but they are attempts to put a moral framework on our otherwise individual reactions often excessive.

          • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.1.1

            ? You just said the same as me, using different words. So why hallucinate hubris where none exists??

            • greywarshark 9.1.1.1.1.1

              I did not say the same as you Dennis Frank. Putting down all christianity – not taking it seriously. I doubt all your other statements now. You seem to skim read and pick out the bits that suit your predetermined mindset which seems to be scepticism without allowance for other possibilities. Discussion with you and others so determined tends to be – 'just push the right buttons to activate the pavlovian reflex.'

              • Dennis Frank

                Putting down all christianity

                is very different from not taking christianity serious. Therefore you are guilty of misrepresentation, aren't you?

                Do you really want to present yourself here as someone who is clueless about the effect of belief systems on the thoughts and behaviour of adherents?

                If so, why not be honest and say so? If not, do try to factor in that other commentators are likely to have nuanced views unconstrained by your personal mental categories.

        • Herodotus 9.1.1.2

          Without a belief framework then how do we decide right/wrong what is just ? As our laws are largely built on a judo/Christian foundation.

          Yet you appear happy in passing over your judgement towards others.

          • McFlock 9.1.1.2.1

            Don't let the decoration fool you about our laws. They are the result of the class struggle leading to codification and consistent enforcement applying to all (rather than rule by decree) that faces all societies.

            And the law has very little to do with moral or ethical outcomes. It's about preserving order in society.

            As for right/wrong without religion, I worry about people who think that eternal damnation is the only thing stopping them from rape and pillage.

          • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.2.2

            Historians have established that the golden rule was recognised prior to Jesus recycling it. That's despite most ancient knowledge being eliminated by the various attempts to burn the great library of Alexandria (first the Romans, accidentally, later the christians, deliberately, and later still the moslems, deliberately.

            I'm inclined to the notion that co-habitation produces an incentive-structure naturally. You can see how various animal species evolve rules-based culture (traditionally called instincts). The relation of ethics to ethos is worth pondering.

            But you took the wrong inference from what I wrote. I agree religions can provide positive teachings and these can be documented from history. That's different from my being disinclined to take religions seriously. I just find cultural constructs inherently suspect due to their natural tendency to be relative to particular ethnicities, tribes, periods, etc…

      • Stuart Munro 9.1.2

        Christianity means different things to different people.

  9. greywarshark 10

    I have just hung up on ringing the Mainland 0800 number at Fonterra. 18 minutes hanging on with regular messages that I can reach them on-line at various sites. (So do they not have a simple telephone contact point any more?) Otherwise I have to wait for the next available agent. All the agents must be out doing other things agents do. Fonterra are so small-customer adverse that they don't even give you a message like 'We are very busy at present but you are now in line and your call will be answered in approximately …8 minutes'. That would be a step up from being told don't bother, go to your expensive smart phone, desk top etc where we can be even further away from giving you human-to-human service.

    This is NZ today. Neolib was to make things easy for business, they were to be given more freedom to manage as they wished. So they withdraw from the planet as much as possible, and convey their messages from a distance reaching to satellites in outer space. While we have a few warm fuzzies handed out to keep us quiet, business is allowed to withdraw to a virtual world.

    F..k this system, f..k WINZ that is at the end of it balefully eyeing us if we can find a way to approach it in person, forcing us instead to use a tenuous line of material and directed energy when we attempt to phone and talk. But they are inclined to make us wait, keeping us hanging on to a phone for an hour/s costing us for every wasted minute, out of an income already too low for the costs of a normal life,

    I have told the local Council that I want paper accounts for my rates, but they want an energy-driven paperless system, it's the efficient modern way. I have a reply that I have not yet read; it may be an ultimatum. Machine-addicted men are behind this. That is my gut feeling. I have no proof, but I'm sure there is a conspiracy to make humans obsolete!

    • Barfly 10.1

      In a previous life I was a sales clerk dealing with incoming calls – the standard was answer the phone within three or less rings – kinda miss that practice these days.

    • RedBaronCV 10.2

      I empathise – corporates and the government departments really are trying to fob customers off with no communications. I try for a return by saying my email and phone numbers are personal so they can write to me.

    • Climaction 10.3

      You won’t have electronic versions of paper invoices? And if they don’t acquiesce you won’t pay?

      this is what’s causes global catastrophes. Small, punitive actions based on selfish belief multiplied by millions.

      climate destroyer

    • weka 10.4

      there's a special place in hell for the people that established call centre and dial in culture in NZ and set it up so badly.

  10. Patricia Bremner 11

    Our schools and our Politics should be secular, otherwise we are heading for that "the world is 4000 yrs old" rubbish.

    "Judith believes in "giving back double" and "miracles" so it is evident she doesn't believe in "turning the other cheek" or "the meek will inherit the earth'

    I see a cartoon of her, Bible in one hand and a gun in the other.. oh and don't forget the maga cap.

    She is a mixed metaphor for Trump's America. She reminds me of Brash, "my wife is Asian you know" becomes "my husband is Samoan you know"

  11. dv 12

    Just a point about debate participants who don't take notice of the moderator
    The moderator need a microphone OFF button!!!

    That would learn them well maybe!!!

  12. joe90 13

    Jude's getting her tRump on.

  13. Andre 14

    Y so serious today? Time for some light entertainment.

  14. greywarshark 15

    Uh oh heard on Radionz this morning. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/427328/national-promises-water-storage-policy-under-infrastructure-bank

    National promises water storage policy under Infrastructure Bank

    Sounds like Nats are putting in opposition to Kiwibank. They will monetise and conserve some National water realising that fresh drinking water will be the 'new black' in precious resources. Neolib has given the world the right to our country's water for a song –

    ''Ole Man River' –
    Ah gits weary
    An' sick of tryin'
    Ah'm tired of livin'
    An' scared of dyin'
    But ol' man river
    He jes' keeps rolling' along..

    National ever sharp for advantage is picking to make money out of the Environment by building a Bank and storing water under it which they will charge big biccies for. You heard it here first folks.

  15. joe90 16

    tRump's forever war continues to blow people apart and barbecue whatever's left.

    WASHINGTON — U.S. Special Operations forces, with no fanfare, killed a top Qaeda leader in northwest Syria in an unusual drone strike nearly two weeks ago.

    They used a secretive weapon — a so-called Ninja Hellfire missile on which the explosive warhead is replaced by long blades to crush or slice its victim while minimizing risks to any civilians nearby. It was the second time in three months that American commandos have killed a senior Qaeda leader in northwest Syria with these specially designed missiles.

    https://archive.li/VxUis (nyt)

  16. Dennis Frank 17

    Brownlee's attempting to demonstrate his relevance: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/30-09-2020/fuming-labour-pushes-back-after-brownlee-makes-dodgy-push-poll-claims/

    A push poll is a deceptive polling tactic where questions are posed in such a way as to manipulate responses.

    The material provided to The Spinoff does not correspond with a push poll, but lists a number of standard poll questions.

    Labour is hitting back at allegations from the National Party that it paid for a “push poll” showing Kiri Allan poised to take an East Coast electorate that has been blue for nearly two decades.

    A spokesperson for the National Party said Brownlee wasn’t alleging that Labour has used push polls but was only asking if they were doing such things.

    Brownlee’s press release twice states that Labour is conducting push polls

    Facts, who needs them? Why would media report what his press release actually stated when competitive spin is all you need for manufacturing a news story?

    The initial story in the Rotorua Daily Post omitted that the poll wasn’t conducted by Labour’s usual pollster UMR, but by research company Community Engagement Limited.

    Well, obviously that fact was omitted because it was too boring, right? Gotta entertain, to sell media.

    According to Labour, one of the company’s executives was the head of Young Labour a decade ago.

    Everyone makes mistakes. No reason to hang him from a lamp-post. But you can see why Brownlee felt voters were getting a push from the poll:

    The poll shows Labour at 46.9% of the party vote, well ahead of National’s 28.6% in the East Coast seat. Both the Greens and NZ First are below 5% support.

  17. greywarshark 18

    Ouvea – sounds innocuous. What area is going to be the lucky recipient of this previously unusable toxic material? What can be done to neutralise it? What processes to follow? What infrastructure to do it? How will it be done safely to people, all animals, land and water? What condition will it be left in, and how long before it deteriorates? What can it safely be used for after treatment? So I hope all that has been looked at otherwise we will be in a sort of Muroroa situation where the bad stuff left over returns again to cause disaster.

    Oct.1/20 https://www.southlandexpress.co.nz/news/ouvea-sites-identified/

    Sep.29/20 https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/alternative-premix-storage-sites-identified

    Oct.1/20 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427303/court-action-brings-hope-to-mataura-residents-of-toxic-waste-dispute-resolution

    Sep.30/20 Minute of Environment Judge Newhook
    https://www.es.govt.nz/about-us/news?item=id:2bjtce28u1cxbyx5u8x9

    Sep.28/20 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427071/mataura-toxic-waste-stoush-in-environment-court-today

    2018/12 Apr 2018 12:00 Councillors agree to help fund premix removal
    Environment Southland councillors yesterday (11/4/18) agreed to contribute $250,000 as part of a regional funding package of $650,000 to enable the removal of ouvea premix from four sites in Southland.
    Chairman Nicol Horrell said while Environment Southland has no statutory obligations in regard to the storage of the materials, councillors recognised they had an important role in the solution.

    This is an issue the community feels strongly about, there is a lot of concern and we are prepared to play our part in the resolution.
    The $250,000 will be funded from reserves.
    https://www.es.govt.nz/about-us/public-notices?item=id:26gjsq2rq17q9scu0thb

  18. Pat 19

    The 'Shy Nat' effect?…or wishful thinking

    "Closet National voters too scared to speak out against the team of five million and its Captain Ardern were coming up to him on the street promising, in a whisper, that they’d vote for him but wouldn’t talk about it for fear of judgment from their peers."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/a-sniff-of-hope-for-collins

  19. RosieLee 20

    Time to stop all incoming flights from India or demand verifiable clear tests from all incoming passengers.ie Ones that have not been obtained corruptly.

    • Janet 20.1

      Totally agree – and why so many people coming in from India anyway ? Are those resident in NZ exploiting the "partners for arranged marriage " as way of getting friends and aquaintances into NZ now!

  20. Tiger Mountain 21

    It still looks like Labour made a significant strategical and tactical blunder by kicking the Election date out to October 17. The Nats dirty tricks dept, and media friends, have the ideological shit sprayer on twin turbo boost with nitrous. The only beneficiaries of the PM’s kindness on this occasion have been her sworn political enemies. Treacherous Peters even had a no confidence letter drafted for the the Governor General!

    It should have been done and dusted by now and Collins already sacked–but no–there are more than two weeks of campaign purgatory to come, and several more after that before the full results are known. As per Elections NZ…

    • Wednesday 30 September:
      Overseas voting starts
    • Saturday 3 October:
      Advance voting starts
    • Friday 16 October:
      Advance voting ends
    • Friday 16 October midnight:
      The regulated period ends. All election and referendum advertising must end. Signs must be taken down by midnight.
    • Saturday 17 October:
      Election day. Voters can vote from 9am to 7pm
      We'll start releasing preliminary election results from 7pm on http://www.electionresults.govt.nz
      We won't count referendum votes on election night
    • Friday 30 October:
      We release the preliminary results for the referendums
    • Friday 6 November:
      We declare the official results for the general election and referendums
    • observer 21.1

      It wasn't a blunder. It was the right thing to do. Ethically, and tactically.

      Ardern's popularity is directly linked to the respect voters have for her high standard of behaviour. Political partisans are a small minority. If Ardern did a Collins, she would get Collins levels of support.

      In any case, all the things that have happened (policy releases, polls, debates, lies) would still have happened. And the post-election delay too. Makes no difference, except the process is now universally accepted, and that only makes her coming mandate stronger.

  21. weka 22

    • Muttonbird 22.1

      I made the point a few weeks ago that Tenancy law and particularly the fines which go with it are woeful. The fines handed out to landlords breaking the law are embarrassing and as the Tweeter says will only encourage them to do their worst.

      That penalty is an incentive rather than a disincentive.

      So much for the benevolent providing of housing…

      • Molly 22.1.1

        It is worthwhile to look at the Tenancy Orders online.

        In this particular case, no exemplary damages were sought by the tenant in regards to the retaliatory notice. If there were, the Tenancy Tribunal can award up to $4,000.

        "….5. Serving a retaliatory notice is also an unlawful act and can attract exemplary damages of up to $4,000. But the application does not expressly seek exemplary damages for that act and it is not an obvious inference to be drawn from the application. Because it is up to the applicant to set out the remedy sought, and the respondent is entitled to fair notice of that, I am not willing to treat the application as seeking exemplary damages for the retaliatory notice. "

        It is worth taking time to read through some of the Tribunal orders to get a sense of how seemingly similar situations are treated differently, and why.

        You might not agree with all the rulings but they are often consistent with previous ones, and there is a great variance in the way applications are lodged, and how evidence is provided which can be understood by reading orders relating to specific topics.

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