Open mike 18/09/2012

137 comments on “Open mike 18/09/2012 ”

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1. Pascal's bookie 1

   18 September 2012 at 7:33 am

   Here’s something for Labour to bang on about till the next election, commission a local version, and keep on banging on about it till everyone groks it:

   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/17/tax-cuts-for-the-rich_n_1889686.html
   • Draco T Bastard 1.1

     18 September 2012 at 9:28 am

     Ah, reality comes in to bite the neo-liberal economists again but I’m sure that they’ll just continue to ignore it. After all, if they went around acknowledging that their theory didn’t work then they wouldn’t be able to continue to justify capitalism.
     • TheContrarian 1.1.1

       18 September 2012 at 9:45 am

       Neo-Liberalism is only one facet of capitalism.
       • millsy 1.1.1.1

         18 September 2012 at 11:01 am

         Quite.

         After the great depression both sides of the political fence agreed to putting the capitalist system in chains so as to serve mankind. About 30 years ago, the chains were unlocked by those who had forgotten what damage it will wreak to society.
         • TheContrarian 1.1.1.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 12:00 pm

           Indeed.

           Unbridled anarcho-capitalism is a distinct type of capitalism.
           • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1.1.1

             18 September 2012 at 12:36 pm

             Yeah. It sits within the set of capitalisms marked: “Do not actually exist” on the ven diagram of ‘What is capitalism’
           • SpaceMonkey 1.1.1.1.1.2

             18 September 2012 at 1:30 pm

             Yeah… it doesn’t exist… anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron.
             • TheContrarian …

               18 September 2012 at 2:07 pm

               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

               indeed it does exist (though I can’t think of any real world examples – which is a good thing)

               Though neo-liberalism, taken to tit’s logical conclusion, would lead to a system not to dissimilar to Anarcho-capitalism. Prebble once mused that police could be privtised which would fit into a Anarcho-capitalism model
               • lprent …

                 18 September 2012 at 2:21 pm

                 though I can’t think of any real world examples – which is a good thing

                 I always thought Somalia was the nearest thing to its inevitable result…

                 Like classical liberalism, and unlike anarcho-pacifism, anarcho-capitalism permits the use of force, as long as it is in the defense of persons or property. The permissible extent of this defensive use of force is an arguable point among anarcho-capitalists. Retributive justice, meaning retaliatory force, is often a component of the contracts imagined for an anarcho-capitalist society. Some believe prisons or indentured servitude would be justifiable institutions to deal with those who violate anarcho-capitalist property relations, while others believe exile or forced restitution are sufficient.[47]

                 The problem is that given those set of characteristics and that there is no institution to constrain violence, then I’d expect it to rapidly do a Somalia…. Warlords and personal fiefdoms.

                 It has been raised here many times as a question for libertarians of various shades. For some reason they seem to avoid answering this as an objection. The nearest that anyone gets to it is postulate something that looks astonishing like “because I said so….”
                 • TheContrarian …

                   18 September 2012 at 2:38 pm

                   the rule of law could arbitrarily set in an anarcho-capitalist society based purely on the whims of which ever agency or individual owns the contract for the police force. But then again, another person has no constraint on owning and creating their own security force so, you are quite right, the end result would be rulers of their own fiefdoms.

                   Somalia is a good case study I guess but it doesn’t have the massive corporatism (as far as I am aware) which would result from a Western anarcho-capitalist society. 
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     18 September 2012 at 3:04 pm

                     nah, it’s a load of wank.It’s square circleism, which is why it dosenae exist. Sure, there’s people blathering about what it might look like, but that doesn’t make it exist. FFS, timecube!!

                     What do you need for capitalism? you need defined property rights, enforced by a legal authority. Pretty hard to build that in anarchy, which is the fucking absence of legal authority.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     18 September 2012 at 3:13 pm

                     It’s anarcho-Capitalism because it advocates removal of the state.

                     But you know best.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     18 September 2012 at 3:18 pm

                     have a read of what they say. lots of talk about what sort of things would be ‘justifiable’. Justifiable to whom? is a question that doesn’t get mentioned a lot.

                     That’s not anarchy, it’s minarchy.

                     You could argue that capitalism might be emergent from a state of anarchy, but then you just delay the squaring of the circle. How can you set up the social infrastructure capitalism needs without enforceable property rights? And if you don’t have enforceable property rights how is it capitalism?

                     It’s just silly.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     18 September 2012 at 3:45 pm

                     You might find this interesting, PB:
                     http://c4ss.org/content/4043  

                     Only had a quick scan myself as quite busy but will have a longer read later 
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     18 September 2012 at 3:52 pm

                     From a quick read, yeah, s/he seems to get it. Thanks.
                   • mike e …

                     18 September 2012 at 8:19 pm

                     Feudalism basically Contrarian
                 • Jokerman …

                   18 September 2012 at 7:07 pm

                   anarcho-capitalism IS happening already! (there is a distortion of Gen X values for ya
         • SpaceMonkey 1.1.1.1.2

           18 September 2012 at 1:40 pm

           I’m not sure they had forgotten at all. They could quite possibly have been saying to themselves… “we’ve got 30 or so years to make a killing out the chaos this will cause before the whole thing implodes.” The financiers make money on rising and falling markets… volatilaty is good.
     • Bill 1.1.2

       18 September 2012 at 9:57 am

       DtB. The theory works just fine and as intended. The lies given to us over the reason for applying the theory and its intended consequences are the problem.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1

         18 September 2012 at 1:50 pm

         +1

         its like saying that the Americans and the EU are stupid for bailing out the bankers yet again. Haven’t they learnt this strategy doesn’t work?

         When in fact it works very well, for the bankers and their top echelon mates.
   • Bill 1.2

     18 September 2012 at 9:53 am

     Says a lot about the ridiculous world of disconnected, politically driven theory we live in when somebody has to do a study to ‘find’ – to all intent and purposes – that ‘hitting your thumb with a hammer’ results in a sore thumb.

     The question is why we allow such crackpot bullshit (repeated hammer + thumb = pleasure) to gain any measure of importance in our lives? And if the answer is because we ‘have no choice’ insofar as all ‘our’ politicians push crackpot b/s, partly or wholly because self promoting corporate, politically motivated media generally embrace such crackpot b/s and denigrate any politician who doesn’t – then what are we to do?

     Any answers?
     • Dr Terry 1.2.1

       18 September 2012 at 11:00 am

       Bill, one answer might be for Kiwis to become less self-depreciating in favour of self-assurance and assertion. That is a big ask!!
       • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1

         18 September 2012 at 1:32 pm

         Become a tad more (gasp!) Aussie like, in other words. Just a little, mind you.
     • Jokerman 1.2.2

       18 September 2012 at 11:12 am

       ontological reductionism.
       levels of discourse
       reduction by levels of discourse
       may lead to epistemological reductionism
     • Jokerman 1.2.3

       18 September 2012 at 11:14 am

       ontological reductionism.

       levels of discourse
       reduction by levels of discourse
       may lead to epistemological reduction
     • Jokerman 1.2.4

       18 September 2012 at 11:24 am

       Spring Creek mgmt “going through the motions”.-bowel motions upon the Greymouth

       Islamic anti-U.S backlash reaches over 30 countries
       FF?-increased U.S commitment to M.E?

       “let us not Love with words or tongue, but with actions and in truth”
   • David H 1.3

     18 September 2012 at 10:03 am

     And it’s taken them how long to figure this out??? 1 person can only spend so much in 1 day where as 100000 spend enough to sustain a small town.
   • felix 1.4

     18 September 2012 at 12:10 pm

     “Tax cuts for rich linked to income inequality, not income growth”

     In other news, finger cuts for concert pianists linked to more clumsy playing, not less.
   • aerobubble 1.5

     18 September 2012 at 1:26 pm

     Just did a ‘future lifetime’ costing of rich people’s unpaid fines and charges, its trillions of dollars
     lost to the tax payers. Its a pity because welfare is one of the most cost efficient ways of
     providing for the poorest yet found, lowers cost to disease, ends ghettos, abates crime at
     its beginnings, unlike wealth that sees the richest run off with massive unreturned stolen money.
     The rich even have schemes, Ponsi schemes,… if only we were to stop the rich starting
     finance companies….

     …or are we to expect a percentage of people in whatever walk of life to fall through the
     gaps, and so a lifetime costing of some benefitaries is essential moronic, worse
     discriminatory, since those entitled to welfare aren’t criminal financial fraudsters.
2. Logie97 2

   18 September 2012 at 7:53 am

   KidsCan and feeding the masses.
   From what we saw on Campbell Live last night, the “food” provided was lunch-box fillers. Doughy, bland snack bars, tiny raisin packets and catering size tins of baked beans and a small tub of peaches in syrup and some loaves of bread. Yes, some schools are getting (One-piece-of-fresh-fruit-one-day-a-week) – that is not a daily ration either. Yet Key and Co are being let off the hook here by this really well meaning organisation – being frequently quoted on programmes like Q+A as the answer – they are a start, yes, but not the answer.
   • Bored 2.1

     18 September 2012 at 8:28 am

     I semi watched Campbell whilst on the phone: what really pissed me off was the comments from viewers at the end, three of five said words to the effect that the parents were to blame (read it has nothing to do with money). It would seem to me that we have a very nasty attitude as a society to those less well off than ourselves, “kill the poor” seems to be the default setting for “middle NZ”. No wonder Key gets elected.
     • muzza 2.1.1

       18 September 2012 at 8:43 am

       Its the inevitable result of a broken down divided society, who has been told at an individual level, its all about you. Worst of all. people who are inclined to feel its actually all about them, also think they understand what is happening in the world, ou know they watch CNN, SKY News etc, which creates a disconnect inside them, that the poor, and those in poverty, is largely a choice they have made, its all their fault for being poor and impoverished.

       What these people fail to appreciate is that this has been designed, like the financial system, it cant currently be any other way, but because people are so stupid/selfish, they don’t realise that they too are set to become the poor and impoverished, somewhere along the timeline.

       Perhaps if people could get this through their thick heads, they may start to understand their views are going to become a self fulfilling prophecy they will not have seen coming.

       When our fellow human beings lose, we all lose!
       • Bored 2.1.1.1

         18 September 2012 at 8:59 am

         Thanks Muz, I will put the positive side back on. Occasionally I get a very dark attitude with my fellow humans, which sort of clashes with my preferred modus operandi of doing something about it for other humans. And If the glum thing overcomes me I will take sly pleasure in the discomfort of newly impoverished “aspirants”.
     • Kotahi Tāne Huna 2.1.2

       18 September 2012 at 8:52 am

       Where there is greater inequality, more people will be deprived of the jobs, incomes, housing and cars which are the markers of status. Vulnerable to the humiliation of
       relative poverty, they will be particularly sensitive to feeling disrespected and looked
       down on and unwilling to ignore incidents which appear to involve a loss of face…

       “It’s just gettin’ worse an’ worse round here. Rotherham’s just dog
       rough now, it’s fuckin’ dog rough man. All you get…is people eyein’ yer all
       time and a lot of ‘em aren’t hard at all, ‘cos hard doesn’t have to bother.
       …who wants to live with every time yer go out of the door some fucker’s
       lookin’ at yer? There’s this bloke on our street…, parks his (car) there and he
       eyes me out all time. One of these days his goin’ t’ catch me in a bad mood
       and I’m gunna …ask him what his problem is. … There’s something wrong
       with ‘em, they’re not right in the head. There’s just more and more fuckin’
       weirdo’s about. You’ve got to keep yourself fit an’ strong, and you’ve fuckin’
       got to be able to fight because more an’ more now it’s comin’ down to that
       ‘cos it’s the only thing these wankers respect. I mean if they know yer ‘andy
       and they know you’ve got hard friends – (John’s) popular just cos he’s
       fuckin’ hard, he’s respected and it’s all there is for us now. They walk past yer
       and they stare at yer and first to look away is the weaker one and once they
       see you as weak, then you’re a target to ‘em. Unless they know you’ve got
       heavy friends. … It’s fuckin’ rough.”

       Wilkinson R. Why is violence more common where inequality is greater? Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 2004;1036:1-12

       Bored, I think we are witnessing a symptom rather than a cause.
       • Jokerman 2.1.2.1

         18 September 2012 at 7:19 pm

         gist Smile, and the world smiles back.
     • Mary 2.1.3

       18 September 2012 at 9:27 am

       Why isn’t anyone pointing out that this “food in low decile schools because low income families don’t have enough money to feed their children” caper is just one more banana skin on the big slippery reversion to Poor Law thinking? Nobody wants to see hungry kids at school, but we can’t let this get in the way of what this means in the bigger scheme of things. We’ve already accepted food banks as a legitimate part of our formal welfare system – government refers people to food banks for God’s sake, and who would’ve predicted that back in 1991? We’ve also got Whanau Ora – sounds great because it’s supposedly about giving power back to Maori and who can say that’s a bad thing? Won’t be long though when we hear Key and Bennett saying it’s such a success that we’re handing welfare over to the community to deal with because “they’re so good at it”. They’ve all but done it with our young people. The Left are playing right into the hands of the greedy money fiends by letting us slip slowly but surely back into the deserving/undeserving mire which our current welfare system was designed to get us out of. It’s not hard to see what Key/English/Joyce/Bennett et al are doing and why they want this to happen.
       • weka 2.1.3.1

         18 September 2012 at 10:19 am

          We’ve also got Whanau Ora – sounds great because it’s supposedly about giving power back to Maori and who can say that’s a bad thing? Won’t be long though when we hear Key and Bennett saying it’s such a success that we’re handing welfare over to the community to deal with because “they’re so good at it”.

         Problem is, Maori are better off running their own welfare, simply because the mainstream is so crap at it. 
         • Jokerman 2.1.3.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 11:03 am

           Maori are better at serving the social needs of their communities, if funded appropriately.
           Hear thru the kumara vine that funding discrimination is occuring at the DHB board level regretably
           centralisation of contracts etc
         • millsy 2.1.3.1.2

           18 September 2012 at 11:07 am

           No real issue with Whanau Ora as long as it isnt used to replace the current welfare system, though it seems to me, from the series that was running in the herald some weeks ago, it appeared that tribal groups were using it to dicate to members how they should live their lives. One woman was told to give up her phone/internet service, even though it would be a false economy.
     • Pete 2.1.4

       18 September 2012 at 9:44 am

       It would seem to me that we have a very nasty attitude as a society to those less well off than ourselves, “kill the poor” seems to be the default setting for “middle NZ”. No wonder Key gets elected.

       I think Chris Trotter was right on the Union Report this week. There really is a nasty streak of authoritarianism in this country.

       We’ve never really had to fight for our freedoms (yes, I know the World Wars, but we were never directly imperilled), they were just developed as this country progressed. We imagine ourselves as a caring society, but that is just part of the national myth.
       • Dr Terry 2.1.4.1

         18 September 2012 at 3:21 pm

         Pete, you are right on to it!
     • millsy 2.1.5

       18 September 2012 at 10:45 am

       The ultamite irony is that those people you mentioned will have benefited from Labour’s 1935-84 welfare/social security state. From free school milk to Housing Corp loans and everything in between.
       • aerobubble 2.1.5.1

         18 September 2012 at 1:39 pm

         Its pretty simple, when the powerful get arrogant they ignore their duties and start
         blaming the great unwashed. Welfare is the most efficient way to save trillions in
         costs on the people, from disease, to poor housing, to poor nutrient, to ghettos,
         to having a healthy skilled workforce. Essentially National aren’t about to attack
         everyone, remove all business and in work welfare, they are only going to remove
         all support from a very few, those most likely to be ignored by the system.
         Its just nasty and despicable, and yes you guessed it, cost more in the long run.
         In more crime, more disease, more run down housing, more social disruption.
     • David H 2.1.6

       18 September 2012 at 10:55 am

       Bored 2.1

       Yep go and read some of the comments on the program. I had to recheck that I was still living in NZ. I tell you it’s scarey the way this is going, it’s standard Nact practice divide and conquer, but this time we are all wired up to the web, and the war is in here!

       I think that more and more people are getting fed up with the party line bullshit, and are looking for something different, I can’t say that whats written in here is true, it’s not, it’s opinion, it’s the opinion of a broad spectrum of people and in here apart from the trolls we are all equal (well moderators above equal) and no laughs at what you say. Unless it’s complete troll or stupid talk then the above equal part comes in. And the fact that the name of the Standard and other blogs have been mentioned in the MSM (thanks Bryce and Gordon) people have to come and look (I could be talking out of my ass here But Lprent are the visits by new people up and new members up as well?) If they aren’t then lets hope for more media coverage and a member to win Lotto to help fund. There are some very knowledgeable people in here from all walks of life. Unfortunately until we get more readers their voice is lost in the babble of MSM drivel.

       What I am trying to get at is this unless we adapt to the way things are happening on the net, in the Blogs, the MSM and to the way the Nats are using the net we will lose and keep losing. They have the joyous intelligence of The Whale, and of course their tame troll Farrar. And of course Hooten, king of the shout down what ever he is.

       You can see it in the coverage of the ABC fight, Half of the insider leak I suspect was probably from the fantasy of Whale and his boyfriend Duncan. The response was immediate and in some cases way over the top and it keeps happening. And we get bad press the Rabid left blog shit from the likes of JA on the Herald and the same on Stuff.

       We have Paula Benefit stripping away our rights, Widows will lose about $8.30 a week, if you miss 3 calls benefit slashed, turn down a job, benefit slashed, fail a drug test? Yep Again benefit slashed. And I really don’t have the energy or knowlege to go into what Parata is doing to education I need to learn. I am shocked at the bullshit coming from Brownlee in CHCH. Then there’s that happy Joyce creator of the latest white whale MOBIE so that makes him Capt Ahab and we all know how that ended.

       And it keeps happening. And why does it keep happening ? Because there is bugger all opposition to the plans of the Natcs, they get away with lying, cheating, bullying, etc and still they are not taken to task

       Why NOT?

       There needs to be change major change in the Labour party they need to get back the people who at the moment know that NO ONE gives a shit about them. They are the forgotten kids of 16 and 17 they are the next generation of voters, but if they see the shit that Key pulls, and gets away with, ALL the fucking time, no wonder they just don’t bother. The infighting in the Labour Party must stop it has to. it is diverting attention away from what is important, but what is important to the LP at the moment ? It seems that power rather than their constituents is the important thing. They forget we voted them in. DID they not get the message that was sent at the last election? it seems not. They need a complete clean out a democratically elected leader Get the cronies out of the picture, (this ME politics is bullshit.) how many more seats do they have to lose (hopefully to the greens BUT I fear not) to finally get the message?

       Wow sorry i needed to clear my thoughts and a sleepless night don’t help. go ahead and pick it apart I look forward to any and all criticism. Oh and please DNFTT.
     • Dr Terry 2.1.7

       18 September 2012 at 11:02 am

       Bored, I think you are on to something here.
     • AAMC 2.1.8

       18 September 2012 at 12:12 pm

       On a more positive note, here are some creative young people trying to build some momentum to do something about it..

       #FeedOurFuture
       https://www.facebook.com/FeedingOurFuture

       Lets pick up some shovels and as an act of civil disobedience, turn up at every low decile school and plant fruit trees in their grounds, as a symbol of the community wanting to feed it’s children.
       • muzza 2.1.8.1

         18 September 2012 at 2:14 pm

         I would say the civil disobedience is NOT taking action to assist where it is obviously needed!

         Well said AAMC
         • Logie97 2.1.8.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 7:49 pm

           Several schools ran Enviroschools vegetable gardens with the assistance of grants, and Professor Delorus Umbridge of the 2009/2011 National Government scrapped the funding, but was forced to reinstate it partially because of public outcry.
           Other schools are planting areas of the ground in orchard through grants from their local councils. It will take a good 5 years plus for these trees to start producing sufficiently though … what happens in the meantime?
           Well for one, hopefully Bill Scrooge and Joky Hen and their mean administration will be history.
3. mickysavage 3

   18 September 2012 at 7:55 am

   There is an interesting article in this morning’s Herald discussing a JB Were report which raises concerns about NZ’s financial system and suggests that the Reserve Bank should be taking an active role in suppressing the value of the kiwi dollar.

   Researcher Bernard Doyle is quoted as saying “[t]he RBNZ is one of the few central banks running relatively orthodox monetary policy” and that it was a “rarity in the global economy,” with positive interest rates and no policy to print money. “Unfortunately, in a world where the major central banks are breaking all the rules, this is not an advantage,” he is quoted as saying.

   With the US, Europe and the UK printing dollars and providing cheap credit the NZ dollar will inevitably continue to increase in value as Asian banks seek out the highest interest rates.  So the export sector is in for another clobbering.

   And the Government’s response?  Do nothing and leave it to the market.  The only problem is that there is clearly not a free market operating.  

   Key naturally said that concerns about the financial system were “nonsense”.

   Oh for a government that actually thought it should try and achieve some good … 
   • prism 3.1

     18 September 2012 at 9:34 am

     ms
     Thanks for bringing that to us. Most illuminating.
   • Draco T Bastard 3.2

     18 September 2012 at 9:38 am

     Key naturally said that concerns about the financial system were “nonsense”.

     Him and his rich mates are doing well out of it so it must be good and if other people aren’t doing well out of it, well, that’s their choice.
   • muzza 3.3

     18 September 2012 at 5:36 pm

     Are they short on the Kiwi $$ then….Or perhaps telling their clients they should be.

     Whatever the case, when a mob like JB Were publish a report, there is good reason for it, and its not altruistic!
4. King Kong 4

   18 September 2012 at 8:51 am

   I see it is the first anniversary of the occupy movement. So how did that storming of the Bastille, that many here were sharpening their pitchforks for, pan out? snigger.
   • Urban Rascal 4.1

     18 September 2012 at 9:28 am

     CHANGE OF FOCUS: The Occupy movement has influenced the national dialogue about economic equality, with the word “occupy” itself becoming part of the public lexicon.

     VARIED IMPACT: The protest movement is credited with a range of more concrete accomplishments, from influencing New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s about-face on a millionaire’s tax to helping to save an Atlanta church and veterans’ homes from foreclosure in Atlanta and Minneapolis. In Rhode Island, Occupy Providence won a temporary day center to serve the homeless during the winter.

     http://news.yahoo.com/summary-box-occupy-achieved-6-months-174602618.html

     Small achievements are still achievements, and Occupy has taught societies a lot and connected struggling classes around the world. Connecting struggling classes worldwide is a pretty massive change in global discourse. The fact that your even scoffing at it while probably watching spanish mining strikes, a French socialist president and the Arab fall on the the tele news, all which are connected to the change in discourse, shows how clueless you are to the flow on effects of a connected global movement.

     Maybe the PoAL with make it a bit more relative to NZ for you monkey breath.
   • Uturn 4.2

     18 September 2012 at 9:31 am

     http://lmgtfy.com/?q=occupy+movement
   • mike e 4.3

     18 September 2012 at 9:35 am

     they’ve taken a leaf out of your book and are going to climb the empire’s state building and get shot to pieces like your arguments do most days here primitive primate!
   • prism 4.4

     18 September 2012 at 9:38 am

     King Kong They just did that to amuse you oh reader of philosophy.
   • Dr Terry 4.5

     18 September 2012 at 11:06 am

     The article, KK, reports that the occupy movement remains intact and in good heart in the USA, for starters.
5. Penny Bright 5

   18 September 2012 at 9:22 am

   ‘Dodgy’ John Banks protected by ‘shonky’ John Key?

   The (NOT-SO) ‘HONORABLE’ John Banks – showing all the class of a rat with a gold tooth?

   http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=449542975077413&set=a.449542061744171.101311.100000651420214&type=1&comment_id=1279393

   Penny Bright

   ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

   http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
6. prism 6

   18 September 2012 at 9:22 am

   Heard a quote from Jay Leno –
   “Politics is show business for ugly people”.
   • idlegus 6.1

     18 September 2012 at 10:21 am

     “Politics is the entertainment branch of the Military-Industrial Complex” ~ Frank Zappa
     • prism 6.1.1

       18 September 2012 at 1:01 pm

       idlegus 6.1
       +1
     • prism 6.1.2

       18 September 2012 at 1:02 pm

       idlegus 6.1
       +1
7. David H 7

   18 September 2012 at 9:54 am

   Watching Key on TV3 this morning and when asked about Tainui not coming to a Hui on Water? With a shrug of his shoulders, “It’s a free world” What a bullshit answer. That’s the sort of answer you give if you just don’t care about the question, or what the out come could be, It just shows what a culturally insensitive pig he can be. And he is just going to bulldoze these thefts through at any cost and to hell with the consequences. And the bribed and blind middle class are going to hand it to him on a plate, and the rest of us will pay for it for ever.
   • Dr Terry 7.1

     18 September 2012 at 11:09 am

     Right on, David H, you have got it in one!!
8. travellerev 8

   18 September 2012 at 10:17 am

   I found this really nice map of what they expect to be able to extract from Afghanistan.
   About a trillion dollars worth it seems
   • mike e 8.1

     18 September 2012 at 10:23 am

     you didn’t include the opium or marijuana and Carlyle Haliburton and blackwater(now has a new name).
     The US war machine has already made $1.4 trillion Dollars out of Afghanistan!
     • travellerev 8.1.1

       18 September 2012 at 10:25 am

       Thank God I’ve got you to remind me
   • Colonial Viper 8.2

     18 September 2012 at 10:31 am

     What century is it going to be before they can get a stable enough security situation to set up any mining operations of scale?
     • insider 8.2.1

       18 September 2012 at 1:18 pm

       Mining and trading has been going on in Afghanistan for about 6000 years. The current events are just a blip.
   • Bill 8.3

     18 September 2012 at 10:34 am

     Sheesh, trav. That map misses the return on the US$7.8 b investment in the TAPI pipeline…of which NZ is a part funder.
   • ianmac 8.4

     18 September 2012 at 10:40 am

     Remember the proposed oil pipeline to shift oil from the north of Afghanistan to the Pakistan borders. Was it the real reason for USA getting into Afghanistan?
     • insider 8.4.1

       18 September 2012 at 12:21 pm

       no-one remembers it because it was a myth or literally a pipe dream with no prospect of success.
     • Bill 8.4.2

       18 September 2012 at 4:28 pm

       The Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India pipeline (TAPI) just got signed off the other week. It’s a gas pipeline. Not oil. It was first proposed back in the mid-nineties and the NYT reported at the time on how it was a wonderful idea insofar as it sidelined Iran and Russia.

       But the Taliban never controlled the north of Afghanistan and so could never have guaranteed its safety, hence, perhaps the massacre at Mazar e Sharif in 1998 was, at least in part, a clumsy attempt by them to secure control of the vital NW region?

       Pre 2001 the Taliban had attempted to give over Osama bin Ladin on a number of occasions. But the US were never exactly helpful in securing his extradition to a third country.

       By late 2001, the only pre-text that would have allowed the US to invade was if the state of Afghanistan could be tied to the terrorism of Sept 01. (To invoke Article 51 of the UN Charter) And so we are sold the story of the Taliban being in cahoots with Al qaeda and therefore responsible for the twin towers etc.

       And the Taliban tried to give up Osama bin Ladin again. And again the US were less than helpful.

       If you look at the proposed route of the TAPI pipeline and the position of major bases (which can will remain operational under either a residual US led force backed by mercaneries or by mercanaries on their own – there are already thousands employed in Afghanistan), there is a rather obvious correlation…SW Afghanistan running up to Turkmenistan.

       btw. India finally signed on to the TAPI project (welching on an agreement with Iran for a different pipeline) because they got nuclear technology from the US. And the only reason they got nuclear technology from the US was because P Goff gave up NZ’s veto on the matter.
       • Clashman 8.4.2.1

         18 September 2012 at 5:26 pm

         After 9/11 the Taliban agreed to give Osama up if the US provided some evidence that he was involved/responsible for the attacks. The US wouldn’t/couldn’t.
         Its also interesting that the FBI’s most wanted page for Osama bin Laden never included any apportion of blame for 9/11
         “The FBI page states: “Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.”

         When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on the FBI’s web page, Rex Tomb, the FBI’s Chief of Investigative Publicity, is reported to have said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
         http://www.twf.org/News/Y2006/0608-BinLaden.html
         • Bill 8.4.2.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 5:51 pm

           Before 9/11 the Taliban had Osama on trial for the Tanzania and Kenya bombings. But they had no evidence and so asked the US to supply what evidence they held for the prosecution. The US had already sent them a few cruise missiles and in response to a request for evidence sent a taped ’60 Minutes’ TV interview and a copy of some published magazine article. And so, the Taliban let him go.

           And there are other, on record, instances of the Taliban in discussion with the US seeking to be rid of Osama. (The US didn’t recognise the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan so there was no extradition treaty) All they wanted was some…any…pretext from the US and they would have handed him over to Saudi Arabia. But when you read the record, it appears the US wanted Osama to be just where he was.

           Pre 2001, the Talban even tried to extradite him to Saudi Arabia becasue he had broken a religious edict to not speak of terrorist events. And the Saudi’s refused to ‘play ball’.
           • Colonial Viper 8.4.2.1.1.1

             18 September 2012 at 6:08 pm

             And don’t forget that Osama Bin Laden came from a very wealthy Saudi Arabian family with extensive oil and other business contacts in the US.
   • insider 8.5

     18 September 2012 at 12:28 pm

     I’ve heard of wars for oil, but wars for copper and iron? Give me a break. That kind of idea is just so BC.
     • mike e 8.5.1

       18 September 2012 at 12:48 pm

       what about lithium
       • insider 8.5.1.1

         18 September 2012 at 1:00 pm

         Well half the world’s lithium is in Bolivia. If it is anything like as large the price will likely drop. but it’s all unproven. And it’s hardly a rare metal and war engendering
         • Colonial Viper 8.5.1.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 6:12 pm

           Afghan mineral resources are worth a lot of money, sure. But that’s just icing on the cake.

           The main course are the pipeline routes for oil and gas, allowing the volatile Persian/Middle East area to be completely avoided. That’s where the real strategic driver is. The ability to bypass the Straits of Hormuz and to bypass Russia is absolute magic.
   • joe90 8.6

     18 September 2012 at 12:45 pm

     I’ve heard of wars for oil, but wars for copper and iron?

     West Papua.
     • McFlock 8.6.1

       18 September 2012 at 12:55 pm

       Bougainville.
       • mike e 8.6.1.1

         18 September 2012 at 1:04 pm

         Chile
       • insider 8.6.1.2

         18 September 2012 at 1:06 pm

         post colonial nationalism v self determination. Neither of these are about copper.
         • McFlock 8.6.1.2.1

           18 September 2012 at 4:46 pm

           In the same way that Western African wars had nothing to do with diamonds.
                  
           Hypothetically (of course) I would be interested to see how much of a flying fuck PG would have given if the Panguna mine didn’t exist. Or indeed how much of a grievance the locals would have had if the’d received more than 1% of the mine profits (another 19% to PNG govt). 
               
           Many/most wars are, at the root, about money. You just need a bit more copper to get the same conflict intensity than you do oil or gold.
            
           • TheContrarian 8.6.1.2.1.1

             18 September 2012 at 4:51 pm

             “Many/most wars are, at the root, about money.”

             i don’t know, religion might give money a run for it’s money (mind the pun)
             • McFlock …

               18 September 2012 at 4:56 pm

               I know you don’t know.
               You’re an idiot.
     • joe90 8.6.2

       18 September 2012 at 1:36 pm

       Neither of these are about copper

       Bullshit, while Freeport McMoRan continues to pay Jakarta it’s all about copper.
       • insider 8.6.2.1

         18 September 2012 at 2:14 pm

         Indonesia has claimed all of the western half of New Guinea since 1949, long before the mine, which only takes up a physically very small proportion of the province. The natives’ desire for independence would exist without the mine too.
         • Colonial Viper 8.6.2.1.1

           18 September 2012 at 6:19 pm

           before the mine? Sure. But was it before surveys which showed the masses of ore was there?
       • joe90 8.6.2.2

         18 September 2012 at 2:40 pm

         http://wpik.org/Src/invasion.html#incursions
9. Jackal 9

   18 September 2012 at 10:52 am

   Public subsidizing polluting industries

   National’s Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading and Other Matters) Amendment Bill (PDF) effectively kneecaps the ETS and ensures that New Zealand will fail to meet its international obligations. Giving the public only two weeks to make submissions on that bill, the amendments to the Climate Change Response Act 2002 puts a very flimsy case for economic growth ahead of the environment… In other words it lets the polluters off the hook…
10. millsy 10

    18 September 2012 at 10:56 am

    With those who serve, the government is giving with one hand and taking with the other

    Market rentals for base housing, coupled with the dirty little secret of NZDF housing getting sold off and taken apart bit by bit, which will eat up the 7% payrise that all NZDF personell are getting.

    Is there any reason why soldiers cannot form a union?

    Those who see the forces as a possible respite from transience, insecurity and poverty should really think again…
11. Colonial Viper 11

    18 September 2012 at 10:57 am

    Decimation of a formerly secure US middle class community

    “A culture that does not grasp the vital interplay between morality and power, which mistakes management techniques for wisdom, and fails to understand that the measure of a civilization is its compassion, not its speed or ability to consume, condemns itself to death.” – Chris Hedges

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-are-you-seeing-what-im-seeing
    • Dr Terry 11.1

      18 September 2012 at 11:12 am

      CV, take credit for this excellent and true quotation.
    • Dr Terry 11.2

      18 September 2012 at 11:14 am

      CV, take credit for this excellent and true quotation..
    • Draco T Bastard 11.3

      18 September 2012 at 2:10 pm

      Pablo over at Kiwipolitico has a good article about the infeasibility of the US service economy.

      The basic problem of reliance on services as the core of economic activity is that making money through facilitation is not equivalent to being productive. Nor is working hard synonymous with productivity. Americans work the longest hours and take the shortest vacations of all OECD countries. By that standard they should be light-years ahead of the democratic capitalist world in terms of real productivity. But they are not. That is because hard work and income earned in services does not, in the larger scheme of things, add real value to productivity. It may make the national quality of life better, but it does not advance the overall condition of the productive apparatus. It is the economic equivalent of silver–it is nice and attractive, very malleable, easy to buy, wear and replace, but is no substitute for the economic iron required to build and progress a nation.

      And we’re following the same path to economic stagnation and collapse.
      • Jokerman 11.3.1

        18 September 2012 at 7:31 pm

        i rememeber when the ‘services economy’ was the current propaganda in Aoteoroa; Yawn and despair. More of the sl word (for those that do not Think like moi)
12. ianmac 12

    18 September 2012 at 11:01 am

    A bit ironic that the Topless Princess Kate and husband should be welcomed by traditionally garbed women in the Solomon Islads who were – umm – topless. We are a weird lot aren’t we?
    • prism 12.1

      18 September 2012 at 1:12 pm

      ianmac 12
      it’s all down to culture, fashion and societal norms – that get to be tourniquets on us
13. mickysavage 13

    18 September 2012 at 11:08 am

    The Onion is running a story (obviously satire) that Obama’s popularity has spiked after he punched a Wall Street Banker in the face.  Makes you wonder though …
    • Jackal 13.1

      18 September 2012 at 1:35 pm

      Don’t even think about it mickysavage… You’re already popular enough 🙂
14. Penny Bright 14

    18 September 2012 at 11:11 am

    MEDIA ADVISORY:

    Photo of a banner that will be outside John Banks electorate office
    27 Gillies Ave Newmarket between 12.30 and 1.30pm
    TODAY Tuesday 18 September 2012

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=449542975077413&set=a.4495

    The purpose of this protest is to hand over a letter to John Banks c/- his electorate staff, to ask whether he would be prepared to be the MP to present the following petition to the House (given that he is purportedly so concerned about the slackness of local government electoral law?

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/115686/banks-welcomes-changes-to-'unfair'-donations-law

    Mr Banks says the changes are well overdue.
    “As Charles Dickens said in 1838 the law is an ass – and it’s important that the Government cleans it up. No candidate for public office should go through what I had to go through.”

    In order to prevent this happening to any other candidate – I look forward to The ‘Honorable’ John Banks, MP for Epsom, agreeing to present this petition, at his earliest available opportunity.

    “That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into the findings of the Police investigation into the allegations that the Hon. John Archibald Banks, CNZM QSO, submitted a false donation return in respect to the Auckland Council Mayoral election 2010 – that it was not unlawful for the Hon. John Archibald Banks, CNZM QSO to sign and transmit his candidate’s declaration of expenses without first personally checking and verifying that the information provided (by another party) was accurate.”

    (It is noteworthy that the first signature on this petition is that of Kim Dotcom.)

    (Photocopies of this petition will be available for media.)

    Actually getting this request to staff at John Banks’ electorate office is somewhat complicated owing to the fact that I have been trespassed from it for 2 years arising from my being arrested in it, on 18 June 2012.

    Perhaps the Police will be able to help expedite proceedings?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/7124255/Protesters-stage-sit-in-at-Banks-office

    (Have appearance in Ak District Court (Albert St) tomorrow Wed 19 September 2012 – matter will be adjourned – but will still have a protest outside
    Court from 8.30am – 9am.)

    CRI- 2012 – 004 – 113 21

    CHARGE: Wilful trespass

    Courtroom 11

    TIME: 9.00am

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
15. joe90 15

    18 September 2012 at 11:33 am

    The mask slips.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/secret-video-romney-private-fundraiser
    • ianmac 15.1

      18 September 2012 at 12:22 pm

      Perhaps Mother Jones would sit in on Key’s discussion to his inner circle. Scary stuff Joe.
    • joe90 15.2

      18 September 2012 at 2:09 pm

      Esquire: The Worst Thing Romney Has Said About Americans Yet

      To this moment, I guarantee you, Romney is probably astonished at what all the fuss is about. This is simply the way the world is. There is himself, Willard Romney, and his perfect family, and his perfect life, and there is The Help, and The Help gets drunk on the job, and prunes the shrubbery badly, and pockets the silverware, and makes off with the odd can of salmon out of the pantry. He is who he is today because his breeding and his genes and his god have arranged him to be through a serious of immutable laws against which only a fool or The Help would presume to argue. He is what his golden life has made him to be, and his golden life was only the bare minimum of that to which god and nature entitled him. To ask him to doubt any of this is to ask him to doubt gravity or the movement of the tides.
      • muzza 15.2.1

        18 September 2012 at 2:18 pm

        Ill guess you are familiar with the Romney family background, the mormons in govt, the oaths, prophecy’s and the like Joe?

        Not to mention the Mike Leavitt history, and so on….
      • joe90 15.2.2

        18 September 2012 at 2:44 pm

        Mormon theology visualised muzza.
        • muzza 15.2.2.1

          18 September 2012 at 3:19 pm

          Thanks Joe, I’ll check it out tonight…
    • joe90 15.3

      18 September 2012 at 3:17 pm

      Reince Priebus: Romney was “on message” regarding the 47% comment.
16. Dv 16

    18 September 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Govt chases debt of one cent

    No one from the ministry would be interviewed. Instead it issued a statement saying it knows the one cent overpayment looks silly, but that it sends millions of letters a year through a system which doesn’t distinguish between amounts of debt.

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-chases-debt-of-one-cent/tabid/1607/articleID/269608/Default.aspx#ixzz26mAy1k7f

    Compare to
    Education Pay
    On th NovoPay website.
    Many people may notice differences in their pay of up to plus or minus 10 cents. The reason for this is that Novopay, the new schools’ payroll service, rounds each component of pay separately and the accumulation may result in the up to 10 cents difference.
17. felix 17

    18 September 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Season 4 of the excellent “The Thick Of It” is currently playing in the UK, as someone kindly noted in one of the social threads recently.

    Do you think the David Shearer and the Labour leadership team are watching? I certainly hope so. The latest episode, aired a couple of days ago, is all about them.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtmtk2_the-thick-of-it-s04e02-hdtv-www-movie1k-ch_shortfilms

    (If you don’t have time to watch the whole thing, start about 3 and a half minutes in)
    • Uturn 17.1

      18 September 2012 at 1:00 pm

      I will look forward to Shearer’s next speech where he refers to the “quiet bat-people” of NZ.
      • just saying 17.1.1

        18 September 2012 at 2:20 pm

        Utter genius. Who knew British TV had this outstanding satire about NZ’s current ‘shad-cab’?

        First rule of Breakfast club -don’t talk about breakfast club!

        Btw who’s Malcom?
18. AAMC 18

    18 September 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Politics isn’t going to solve it unless the community forces them!

    https://www.facebook.com/FeedingOurFuture
    • Uturn 18.1

      18 September 2012 at 1:13 pm

      Speaking of quiet bat people…

      A site dedicated to feeding hungry children describes them as “…starving to be better people.”

      😯

      How about,

      “We are committed to using our time and expertise to feed our children, the future of our country.”
      • just saying 18.1.1

        18 September 2012 at 2:23 pm

        Which site?

        How about “Starving to not deserve to starve”
      • AAMC 18.1.2

        18 September 2012 at 2:52 pm

        why don’t you suggest it on their page, participation and debate is what’s required.
    • SpaceMonkey 18.2

      18 September 2012 at 2:39 pm

      Quite true… as Thom Hartmann on RT’s ‘The Big Picture’ pointed out a few months ago, the issue of African-American civil rights wasn’t among any political party’s policies until the protests started and the politicians saw the groundswell of public opinion.

      Meaningful change has to start at a grassroots level, once a critical number is reached, the meme/movement/thinking hits mainstream. I wonder if we are beginning to see this in NZ with the issues of children in poverty and inequality. At present many are in denial or anger (“it’s the parents fault for making bad choices”, etc) which are just two of the 5 stages of awakening:

      http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=454

      Could child-poverty and inequality, in which the state of both are an affront to what it means to be a New Zealander and the principles this country was founded on, be the trigger that results in NZ’s version of the Arab-spring uprisings?
19. Draco T Bastard 19

    18 September 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Well, somebody did say a few days ago that the next distraction from NACT would be announcing a royal visit.
    • Carol 19.1

      18 September 2012 at 2:18 pm

      Excellent! Time for a few demonstrations against the government, Royal privilege, etc!
    • Clashman 19.2

      18 September 2012 at 4:23 pm

      Royal Visit? – groan.
      another million or two wasted on nothing while children go hungry etc etc.
20. captain hook 20

    18 September 2012 at 1:43 pm

    what I want to know is who is the Mcguiness institute who are “voluntarily” assisting the constitutional advisory panel?
    and why?
    So who is paying them?
    Where do they get their money from?
    These questions must be answered if democracy is to be preserved in New Zealand.
21. Dv 21

    18 September 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Is that you gosman?
22. Penny Bright 22

    18 September 2012 at 3:23 pm

    THE ‘DEAR JOHN’ LETTER – handed over to Electorate staff at PROTEST OUTSIDE JOHN BANKS’ ELECTORATE OFFICE 27 Gillies Ave, Newmarket, today, Tuesday 18 September 2012:

    The following letter was given to John Banks’ electorate staff by Jax (I have been trespassed for 2 years from this office, having been arrested for wilful trespass on 18 June 2012 – Court case tomorrow

    Wed. 19 September 2012 CRI- 2012- 004 -113 21
    Auckland District Courtroom 11, Albert St
    9am (Protest outside from 8.30am)

    _________________

    OPEN LETTER TO THE ‘HONORABLE’ JOHN BANKS – MP FOR EPSOM

    18 September 2012

    Dear John,

    RE: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/115686/banks-welcomes-changes-to-'unfair'-donations-law

    Mr Banks says the changes are well overdue.

    “As Charles Dickens said in 1838 the law is an ass – and it’s important that the Government cleans it up. No candidate for public office should go through what I had to go through.”

    Given your above-mentioned publicly-stated concerns about the local electoral law ‘being an ass’, and needing to be ‘cleaned up’ – I would like to give you the opportunity to ‘put your money where your mouth is’ (as it were), on this matter.

    I am formally requesting that YOU please be the Member of Parliament to present the following petition to the House, at your earliest available opportunity:

    “That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into the findings of the Police investigation into the allegations that the Hon. John Archibald Banks, CNZM QSO, submitted a false donation return in respect to the Auckland Council Mayoral election 2010 – that it was not unlawful for the Hon. John Archibald Banks, CNZM QSO to sign and transmit his candidate’s declaration of expenses without first personally checking and verifying that the information provided (by another party) was accurate.”

    You may find it to be noteworthy that the first signature on this petition is that of Kim Dotcom, whose financial assistance to your 2010 Auckland Mayoral campaign, you may recall?

    Looking forward to your prompt response to this VERY important matter.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
    2010 Auckland Mayoral candidate
23. Paul 23

    18 September 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Listening to The Panel and an interview with a Banks Peninsula school about their closing down..after Campbell Live’s programme yesterday about another school in Christchurch.
    Sounds like the ideas from ‘Disaster Capitalism’ by Naomi Klein and what happened to New Orleans after Katrina.
24. xtasy 24

    18 September 2012 at 4:40 pm

    The Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Bill 67-1:

    This new, 191 page long, bill can be found under the following link:
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2012/0067/latest/DLM4542304.html

    The new proposed benefit regime is intended to come into force from 15 July 2013, and it contains legal provisions under which the OUTSOURCING of assessments on beneficiaries for work capacity, of “work preparation exercises” and of “administrative services” will be made possible to private non government agencies and service providers.

    There are obligations for ALL beneficiaries, incl. beneficiary parent(s) and caregiver(s):

    ● A NEW section 60 GAG by section 39 of Act to place obligation of beneficiary to work with “service providers”;
    ● Sanctions can be imposed under section 117 if client fails to comply with this;
    ● Attendance of “work preparation exercises” can be expected under section 60Q;
    ● See also section 125A (amended) re contracts with “administration service providers”.

    Sole Parent Support:
    ● This new, more restrictive benefit is covered by new sections 20A to 20H;
    ● already announced “social obligations” will be expected.

    Supported Living Payment:
    ● The new benefit that can be granted on grounds of sickness, injury or disability, and which is supposed to replace the invalid’s benefit, is covered by sections 40A to 40K;
    ● Supporting living payment recipients exempted ONLY if terminally ill, or if found to be suffering from conditions that are likely to deteriorate or “not improve”;

    Consequential Amendments:
    Re “supported living payment” benefit – see clause 88 re some changes in schedule 6 for present IB

    Drug Testing Obligations:
    and easily WINZ will place such obligations on job-seeker beneficiaries that are asked to have drug tests done on them for jobs where employers require this;
    ● A 50 per cent cut to the benefit can be imposed if a client/applicant fails such a drug;
    ● section 12J is to be amended to limit rights of appeals to the Appeal Authority if “medical” reasons are given (see sections 116C and 102B) for failing drug tests;
    ● WINZ will “compensate” employers for costs of drug tests where clients “fail” to pass them, and will then reclaim those costs from the clients (!);
    ● Beneficiaries who fail an initial drug test will also have to pay for re-compliance drug tests;

    Social Obligations by beneficiary parents:
    a) Enrol newborns with GP;
    b) Participate in ECE;
    c) Ensure attendance of school by children in their care

    Stopping benefit payments for clients who face a warrant of arrest after 28 days of issue:
    ● 10 days notice, then a “cut” of the benefit can and will be imposed;

    ● an immediate “stop” is imposed if a beneficiary – against whom a warrant has been issued – poses a “serious risk to the public”

    Disability Allowance changes and other ‘preferred supplier arrangements’:
    ● Possible “preferred supplier arrangements” for “procurement of goods and services” for welfare recipients in certain circumstances (see s 69C and also sections 125AA and 132AD);
    ● Under section 82 the C.E. can determine payment to preferred supplier or beneficiary for goods or services required as advance or special assistance needs (see also section 125AA);
    ● See also section 124 (1BA) for further provisions re “special assistance”.

    Regulations:
    ● Section 132AD provides for regulations that can set harsher standards and criteria for how “disability allowance” funds paid to beneficiaries are to be used for “specified expenses”;
    ● Other sub-sections under section 132 provide for regulations to be made for the granting, expiry and re-granting “specified benefits” and so forth.

    Re Application for Benefits:
    ● New sections 11E and 11H for “job seeker support” (incl. sick, injured, disabled) applicants, setting out “pre benefit activities” expected of them; new sections 11G and 11H set out consequences for applicants “failing” to meet such “activities” (incl. their spouse/partner);
    ● All beneficiaries appear to have to re-apply for their specified benefits (after 12 months);
    ● See also new sections 80BE and 80 BF re expiry, re-granting and so.

    Work Ability Assessments:
    ● Section 88F sets out job seeker obligations for seeking employment, and under 88F (2) the C.E. must determine the capacity to work for a job seeker – granted that support because of sickness, injury or disability; this basically allows the C.E. to “over rule” medical based assessments (in some forms)!
    ● Hence a “deferral” for “job seekers” is discretionary and based on C.E.’s determinations;
    ● Section 88H (2) allows job seeker (with sickness, injury or disability) to “apply” for “deferral”.
    ● New sections 100B and 100C to require beneficiaries to attend and participate in work ability assessments (virtually ALL beneficiaries);
    ● Section 100B (4) leaves it to the C.E. to determine the way such assessments are conducted;
    ● Procedure(s) for doing this are determined by the C.E. or her/his staff (!!!)
    ● Section 100C also leaves it up to the C.E. to determine appropriate times and frequencies of re-assessments!

    The existing medical appeal rights to a ‘Medical Board’ will in future be covered by a new section 10B (re-enacting section 53A), it changed only a bit

    Sanctions:
    ● New sections 116B and 116C replace existing sections 115 and 116A for imposing sanctions of beneficiaries not meeting a range of obligations;
    ● Other sections address matters how other sanctions for non compliance are imposed;

    ● Section 116C (2) lists some exemptions from sanctions to be imposed for failing drug testing, like drug dependency, medication that is prescribed and needs to be taken by a client

    Abatement:
    A harsh abatement regime under section 88B (6) for jobseeker support (52 week earnings to benefit comparison); so if a person earns as much as she/he could get on a benefit within 52 weeks, that may mean, NO benefit, as a client/applicant may be expected to “save” and provide for unforeseen job-loss.

    Ineligibility:
    Section 88D penalises unemployed “job seeker” beneficiaries if “fellow workers” (of a union the client/applicant belongs to), caused industrial action (strikes) leading to resulting “unemployment”. This basically makes it yet more difficult to defend worker’s rights.

    Appeal rights denied in certain cases:
    When it comes to forms of certain payments of advances, of disability allowance costs and some other “special assistance”, there is NO right to appeal WINZ decisions!

    This bill is a MONSTER bill, not only due to some controversial, excessively harsh provisions; it is so overly complex, it will be impossible to properly implement and apply in praxis. It further “over-amends” an old Act that has previously received endless amendments. The proposed changes make the Social Security Act extremely difficult to use and apply, as it is very difficult to do this already. Staff will face an administrative nightmare to use the law after all these changes. It would have been a better solution to bring in a whole new statute!

    Ultimately all this will just re-enforce the reality we have already: That beneficiaries are second class, stigmatised and disowned citizens and residents in this country.
    • just saying 24.1

      18 September 2012 at 5:45 pm

      http://blog.greens.org.nz/2012/09/18/take-your-vitamins-nz/

      Thank gods for the Greens providing some goddamn opposition…

      Jan Logie
      Take your vitamins NZ
      Published: September 18, 2012
      by Jan Logie

      ….Because yesterday the Government confirmed plans to reform the sickness benefit system.

      Basically they’re getting rid of the sickness benefit merging it into the wider job seeker benefit, albeit with some exemptions from work readiness activities if someone is deemed too sick….

      …This legislation will require people diagnosed with cancer to focus on what they’re capable of, in terms of employment, rather than what they’re not. This will change once they’ve been diagnosed as terminal. If they want to keep working or look for work then great but if not surely a reasonable society would let someone battling cancer focus on that battle and not siphon their energies off into proving their work readiness or availability.

      To require people who are sick to engage in work readiness activities and look for work assumes they don’t know what’s best for them. It even seems to assume their doctor doesn’t know either.

      The evidence that shows the negative health impacts of income support is contestable and I don’t think it can be used to draw the conclusions that this Government has drawn. There is some evidence that receiving income support has negative health consequences, but this has not to my knowledge considered if this would still be true if the benefit wasn’t set below the poverty level. It also ignores the research that shows it’s actually worse to be in low paid vulnerable employment with poor conditions than it is to be on welfare….
      • weka 24.1.1

        18 September 2012 at 7:05 pm

        thanks js, didn’t see your reply before. 
    • weka 24.2

      18 September 2012 at 7:01 pm

      Looks like they want to abolish Sickness Benefit.

      I agree, it’s hard to make sense of all of that. Will the MSD have published something that interprets it? 
      • xtasy 24.2.1

        18 September 2012 at 7:52 pm

        I met a fair few people who have due to permanent health conditions been on the sickness benefit for years, while it is only meant to be a type of benefit for short to medium term sick and disabled or “incapacitated”. Really some of them should be on IB, but as most struggle to cope with WINZ staff, do not understand the law and their rights, they never dare to challenge decisions.

        Cost saving has already been the agenda for years, and the government drums it into people’s heads, that there are 13 per cent of working age people on benefits, which is unaffordable. But why not compare the 320,000 benefit reliant with the total population then?

        Much spin and manipulation, that is the truth. So many more thousands are supposed to take up jobs, while manufacturing goes down the toilet, jobs are harder to get and poverty is rampant even amongst low paid workers. So they are supposed to make a living by delivering each others pizza and burgers, cut each others hair and mow lawns, I suppose.

        Divide and rule, that is the agenda.
      • xtasy 24.2.2

        18 September 2012 at 10:15 pm

        weka –

        This (see links) is not the MSD “spin” version, but the next best one:

        http://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/Welfare%20_Reform_Q_and_A.pdf

        http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/second-stage-welfare-reforms-introduced
25. belladonna 25

    18 September 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Of course the unemployment benefit is a lot less than sickness or invalid benefit, the outcome is obvious.
    • weka 25.1

      18 September 2012 at 7:08 pm

      SB and UB are the same rate (IB is higher). The difference is that on SB you are not required to look for a job. Looks like they’re not going after IB this time round at a legislative level, although they are messing with it via policy.
      • xtasy 25.1.1

        18 September 2012 at 7:45 pm

        Sickness beneficiaries have already been “work tested” since May last year – in at least some cases, where case managers or other WINZ staff (Regional Health Advisors, Regional Disability Advisors) considered them “capable” of doing some work (usually part time).

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10723662

        Hence there have already been many cases, where WINZ staff members interpreted certain information supplied by doctors on new medical certificates (called now ‘work capacity certificates’) in their own “biased” manner. Yes, they have in some cases definitely over-ruled what doctors may have decided, pressuring sick persons to look for jobs.

        So much is not known in the wider public, it is NOT funny.

        It will all get much worse, if this bill gets passed as it is written.
26. marty mars 26

    18 September 2012 at 9:45 pm

    So key is doing gagagags as well as the fake hui and it’s all for the court case to come.

    Prime Minister John Key says a decision by some Tainui iwi to boycott the Government’s water consultation hui strengthens the Government’s legal position should the matter end up in court.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7692845/Water-hui-boycott-strengthens-Governments-position-Key

    On his way into caucus at Parliament this morning he was asked about the unity around the water issue at the national hui last week called by King Tuheitia.

    He suggested that from the media reports he had seen there wasn’t unity.

    “There are kind of more positions than Lady Gaga’s got outfits.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=10834827&ref=rss

    Deliberate and it will fail, as I have said on my post

    His deliberate ignorance is not an advantage it is a weakness and the more he speaks, the more that weakness is revealed. He thinks he is smarter than he really is – but he isn’t.

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/undo-gag.html

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