Is today the day the door opens on CV’s cage? Should we have a pool for how long from when he emerges until he earns another ban? I give it five hours.
Was he rabidly weird or offering different points of view than those being conformed to by the majority? And getting angry and combative to those disagreeing with him, and sneering at him? There is an inability to allow free speech if it disagrees with the ‘in-group’ who Know All. He steps outside the circle.
Yes, calling Infowars a reliable news source and praising Hitler for “making Germany great” and lying directly to and about moderators (against site rules) is “stepping outside the circle” if you want to put it that way.
CV spends too much time reading https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/ in search of “deeper truth”. Not healthy, I think he’s lost perspective. He’s not “left” any more that’s for sure.
Ok ropata
Just wondered, he seemed to change during the time he was here.
And I think that he did lose perspective. Shame. It is important to step aside a cool the brain. Too much thinking and input from one-line drives you mad IMO.
I agree with Karen – free speech is like a free lunch, and really there isn’t one. There is a limit that cannot, should not be tolerated. But where the limit is has to be thought about.
People being awkward and demanding that another point of view should be considered by the entrenched and the prejudiced, can raise hate against that sort of free speech.
People mocking the good efforts of sincere people – there needs to be a limit. Repetition is tiresome after the fourth/fifth time?
I agree that free speech comes at a cost: eternal vigilance.
Moral and legal boundaries are fuzzy and subjective human constructs, not absolute Laws of Nature.
Once you start to limit free speech because of perceived or anticipated risk or because of mockery or tiresome remarks or because of general dislike and disagreement you start to erode the fundamental basic principle of freedom and choice. But there’s more to it; it is an immensely complex issue:
Only in the freedom of our speaking with one another does the world, as that about which we speak, emerge in its objectivity and visibility from all sides.
Indeed, what would be the point of writing something online if it had no intended consequence? I always try and keep in mind the silent readers (‘lurkers’) of TS.
What people say in your dining room is up to you. If you don’t like them, they don’t get invited to dinner.
That’s all that happened here – he was entertaining and interesting, but became an obnoxious jerk, and then went well off the deep end into being nothing more than a crudely offensive liar. Invitation:revoked.
Disagree to a point. There are a few people I socialise with because I really like them but their political views I utterly disagree with. Sounds like a contradiction, doesn’t it? That’s people and human relationships for you 😉
I find that there’s enormous leeway here on TS on what people can say, which is as it should be IMO; a reflection of how we like society to be perhaps? That said, there are clear rules here and if these get repeatedly violated then this has obvious consequences. However, this is not an argument against free speech, rather the opposite IMHO.
I most certainly don’t like everything that appears here on TS but I would not want any of that content be blocked or banned solely for that reason – nobody would know anyway and taken to extreme, everything would be blocked because there’s always one that disagrees. In fact, I’d like to read more counter-arguments and proper debate here between mature people; the day I’d agree with everything that gets written here on TS is the day I’d leave this site because life is too short to be constantly nodding in agreement with essentially and effectively myself …
I hope I explained this well enough; as I said, it is a hugely complex issue.
On the personal level, yeah, you like those folks. But people we don’t like, we don’t socialise with.
With regards to the wider “free speech” issue, whether legally some things should be banned, of course things like incitement to violence should be banned.
And frankly, I think nazis/neonazis/tikitorchists come under that level. When someone gets to the degree that they’re yelling, in the bible-belt US, “the Jews will not replace us”, that’s a contagious paranoia that can only lead to violence.
I guess I wasn’t clear enough, my bad. I like “those folks” enough to socialise with them but I vehemently dislike their political and racist views. Somehow, I can look/move past their ‘objectionable’ views because it doesn’t fully describe or define them, if that makes any sense.
Yes, there have to be boundaries but these are almost always very fuzzy and open to interpretation and dependent on context, etc. It never is black & white, thankfully or unfortunately …
Inciting violence crosses a line. Making threats crosses a line. But somebody with extreme views is allowed to speak as long as he/she doesn’t cross certain lines. Similarly, unless somebody poses a definite risk (…) to the community (or State) there’s nothing that can and should be done to silence this person (or lock them up). The real question is not so much where to draw the line but how to avoid or prevent the line from being crossed by when it is already too late. Free speech might actually help although it can be a double-edged sword …
@ McFlock
Yes I agree – and when someone takes over the discussion – shouts everyone else down – turns everything to what they think, and dominates to the exclusion of everyone else. Is that “freedom of speech” tolerable? Particularly if they are merely parroting memes from propaganda sites?
I am friends and have amiable relationships with the occasional tory, but not nazis. They’re jerks. Because nazi. Not just because their views are different to mine, but mostly because the nature of nazi beliefs means that they want someone with my beliefs (i.e. not nazi) to die. Because that’s what nazis do: make non-nazis die.
As for fuzzy boundaries, that’s what courts are for. When in doubt, charge them and let the courts sort it out.
People left the site last year because of what was going on. So for me it’s not an issue of free speech. Everyone in NZ is free to say what they like up to the limits of the law around things like inciting race hatred or violence. But they don’t all have equal access to publishing.
On TS it’s an issue of supporting robust debate for the widest range of people possible within the aims of the site (the labour movement).
When you have people being anti-social from their racism, sexism etc, it’s not a problem of their views but their behaviour.
My friendships can be quite complex, I admit; I’m a complex person myself.
The courts are there to determine whether legal boundaries have been crossed. The BSA deals with other kinds of complaints, etc. Who decides when/where moral/ethical boundaries have been crossed? It depends on the realm and nature of the transgression or alleged violation of the rules. But generally speaking, morality is less well covered than legal boundaries by the Law and for good reasons I think …
It may be better to distinguish between the freedom of speech here on TS and the fundamental right that is freedom of speech for every citizen in a democracy such as ours; there’s much overlap/similarity, of course, but they are not one and the same thing.
I feel it is beyond my ‘remit’ as occasional Guest Poster to do a post in this but I’m tempted; it is obviously a contentious issue, as this thread and a very recent exchange in OM have shown, and potentially risky as it might ‘test’ the boundaries of TS rules …
You’re definitely safer doing it as a post than as comments. I’m a lot more willing to give more time and latitude to the former than I do to the latter.
The reason is obvious. We usually have something between 25-60 posts a week and about 12 of those are routine ones, OpenMike etc. But we can have 1500-8000 comments in week, and that is after I automatically chop a thousand or so of comments with prefilters for robots. (I have been promising some stats on that for a while without having the time to pull them off).
Anyway, the amount of time spent reading comments is several orders of magnitude larger for moderators, and that is even without the time required to respond to issues. So we skim comments and apply some pretty coarse routines.
Basically the way I run it after a decade on this site (and more on older systems) is that if I have to slow down to actually read a comment, then you are already guilty of something. It could be intelligence or lie or liability or trolling or stupidity or just a good laugh. The next pass is essentially a question of if I think it adds to the site dialogue or not. And then I start looking at exactly what was said and sometimes the context.
CV’s problem (since this discussion started about him) was in the latter stages he was making the virtually every discussions he was involved in to be about him and not about much else, it was highly repetitive, and spread across posts. The same had happened in the backend previously with his senseless war with TRP. It didn’t add anything to the site, but caused a lot more work and purposeless aggravation to moderation and authors. So he progressively got the chop from author down to a ban.
That was an extreme example because of the descent from author to banned. But it is essentially the same as every other person who gets a ban. We like robust debate, which is why you see a pretty deliberate policy to try not to ban on ideological grounds. But senseless, boring and above repeated stupidity just makes work for us both directly with things like legal liability and because we have to wind up cleaning up the flamewar messes.
The basic rule about “free speech” here is to do it without substantively increasing the workload of the volunteer moderators for with valueless waffle or having to stop too much to check the comments. In short, we expect you and all other commenters to self-moderate.
If people absolutely have to have a say that is going to cause issue here, then it pays to signal that you are aware that is what you are doing to the moderators. Then consider that the net is wide and we don’t constrain your “free speech” at one of the many other sites that you can have your say on. We just constrain it where we have to do the work for you.
It’s only drawbacks seem to be that we’re not always clear when we’re talking about the personal realm (in which I include privately-funded blogs as much as dinner guests), the legal realm, or the moral realm.
I also think we’re on pretty much the same page regarding how the law should treat freedom of speech and where the line is, but we may disagree on whether certain cases (nazis) meet that line.
I also think there might be a discussion as to whether there’s a point that one’s opinions or behaviour does in fact define them. From my perspective, an amiable and gregarious raconteur who happens to be a nazi is just a more dangerous kind of nazi, rather than just being pleasant company with alternative views to mine.
Yes, it has been a very good discussion so far, which I really appreciate, thank you.
Many arguments are based on or start off as misunderstandings, talking passed each other, and then descend from there as it were. Once you’re down the rabbit hole in a communication or relationship – pretty similar things IMO – it is very hard to find your way back and crawl out of it. If you do manage you’re covered in ‘soil’ and feel ‘dirty’, at least, I do.
You’re saying that a ‘pleasant’ Nazi still is a Nazi. This is true, to a point, because they are so many things, all in one person. There’s a difference between being a Nazi, behaving or acting like a Nazi, and crossing a legal boundary (i.e. committing a punishable offence) IMO. I guess your argument is that it is only a matter of time before they will cross such a line. This is where I beg to differ and give them the benefit of the doubt. I do agree that many, but not all, can do horrible things under certain circumstances, but this is by no means unique to Nazis; Hannah Arendt held this view too.
Nazis have an ideology of sorts, but many racists or sexists, for example, do not. That’s an important difference in how we deal with people and their views that we don’t agree with or intensely dislike and outright reject. Many simply parrot their parents or peers …
Free speech and raising awareness is the best way to be vigilant and possibly even to transcend extreme views. Once you stop/block communication evil will run its course, no matter what is its ‘name’ …
But then discussing with evil as if it’s a reasonable argument lends evil a legitimacy that it should be denied.
Nobody is perfect in their outlook, but as soon as people start saying Hitler was nice to his dog or put equally irrelevant praise upon him, they’re trying to minimise the entire holocaust. Or if they’re parading in the streets using the old slogans, they’re supporting the holocaust.
Let me be completely clear: Nazis shouldn’t be shunned, banned, mocked, and so on because they are at the top of a slippery slope and might break the law. All of those things should be done to them because spreading those opinions as a rational point of view necessitates murder. Every single time solitary nazis feel empowered to gather and express their views as if they are a legitimate part of society, people end up dying before society is forced to crack down on them again.
A pleasant nazi is a dangerous nazi because they make nazis seem pleasant, acceptable, even entertaining. They legitimise being a nazi. But as soon as one is a nazi, one isn’t a number of things, one is a nazi with a number of characteristics.
There’s no such thing as a moderate nazi. There’s just a nazi who hasn’t killed anyone yet.
Thank you for the clarification and I will keep it in mind if/when I write such a post; I’d like to think I’m quite good at self-moderation; not so good at self-medication 😉
I think TS is a wonderful forum with shed loads of freedom and moderated as well as is humanly possible.
All this talk of Nazis… John Maynard Keynes. I’m going to assume you’d have been fairly open to sitting down for a beer with him. Nice chap. Some interesting stuff to say on economics.
The same John Maynard Keynes who was director of the Eugenics Society from 1937 to 1944.
Eugenics. The widespread and popular belief that pre-dated the Nazis, that justified forced sterilization in many states in the US and an idea that the Nazis merely exploited, didn’t conceive.
Fascism – Mussolini’s Italy. Where Roosevelt turned to in order to figure out how to lay in the social provisions of the ‘New Deal’.
USSR – the idea that an elite could order a society ‘just so’ for the betterment of humankind….Not fascism?
Methinks you lack nuance. Or maybe it’s that you’d position yourself betwixt and between those supposedly extreme poles of left and right, in some civilised or “safe” space, But then what wind-blown seeds does that ground inevitably contain?
You put your finger on it with the USSR: as you put it, initially designed to bring about the betterment of human kind. So, not nazis, even if it was an authoritarian dictatorship that killed millions of people.
Upon consideration, I’m not sure I’d put nazis on the continuum between left and right, let alone the extreme end.
In the case of nazis, we should all lack nuance. Even the fascists were originally better than the nazis, although they jumped on board so fuck them, too.
Had the term “fascism” been around in 1919, it would have been applied to the Bolsheviks.
Mussolini (just like the Bolsheviks) insisted his order was for the betterment of humankind. The difference was that he teased the monolithic Bolshevik model a tad to give more agency and legitimacy to things other than “the party” – the state.
Roosevelt wasn’t a fascist (to be a Nazi one would have had to have been German and living in Germany), but he was very accommodating of fascism and, like I say,relied on fascists to show him how to implement social programmes.
And Keynes wasn’t a Nazi either. Like I say. He was a proponent of eugenics.
If the fascists and bolsheviks were interchangable, the fascists would have been called bolsheviks because the bolsheviks came first.
So Roosevelt looked at fascist social programmes and keynes was a eugenics supporter. That makes neither of them nazis. Did roosevelt only look at fascist social programmes? Did the fascists invent the concept? I bet no. Does one have to be a nazi to be a eugenicist? Again, no. Does one even need to be a eugenicist to be a nazi? I doubt many could even spell the word.
I think that Hannah makes something sound clear and noble that is debatable and moulded. Do kiwiblog points get clearer and more visible as their denizens partake in that echo chamber?
I like your point about fuzzy and subjective human constructs.
But the things you mention and I noted can destroy an attempt at thoughtful discussion on the blog. People can’t be distracted from focussing on the various important points by mockery et al and still be able to get an overview of strengths and weaknesses of whatever they set out to consider.
Not all of us have clarity of thought and/or writing (communicating) especially when dealing with complex topics. Sometimes mockery is a bad/failed attempt at humour or sarcasm; it’s not always necessarily intended to distract. But I take your point that there are people who like to deliberately derail debate. I can ignore these but others may not be able; banning bad behaviour on TS is not the same as banning free speech as Lynn has just explained very well @ 9.44 pm.
Edit: for me clarity often comes through writing …
Free societies have plenty of sanctions against toxic speech – a common example is shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre when there is no fire, slander, false advertising, criminal conspiracy and so on.
Any ideal can be subject to reductio ad absurdum and absolute liberalism that gives free reign to those who seek to destroy it is untenable.
CV sought to actively disrupt discourse with misogynistic, racist, antisemitic and racist abuse and outright lies and deliberate misinformation.
A perfectly liberal forum is not possible, and in the interests of a maximally liberal discourse, restrictions on those who seek ultimately to destroy it are reasonable and justified.
Another thread warns of the coming digital war and whether or not you believe that Russia interfered in the US presidential election, you know that trolling can be systematic and targeted.
On an aside, people talk about Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and Margaret Atwood as being the dark prophets of our age, I’m thinking that the one who really got it was William S. Burroughs with his writing about viral information, feedback and Nova Mobs.
Yes, I agree with all that. The Devil is in the detail, as they say.
The only possible way to protect freedom against those who seek to limit it is to give them as much freedom as possible, without prejudice. That’s the paradox.
There seems to be some apprehension about CV returning here. It might never happen and if it does a ‘welcoming guard’ might be poised to pounce … Regardless of whether I like the guy or not, whether I like his views or not, he’s done ‘his time’ and should be given a fair chance IMHO. I can only speak for myself and fully accept that other people don’t share my views on free speech in general or CV in particular. In any case, it’s not about winning an argument, it’s about exploring the tension between opposing views.
Incognito
But where and how is the freedom allowed, pursued? People can’t come in and take over this blog with prattle. How could we ever get to discuss anything and be able to see trends and exchange information that a few people could add to their info and make discoveries on important subjects.
To me it’s not necessarily winning an argument, it is seeing other points of view which after consideration, would need to be put aside, until a clearer picture of the situation would be seen. I myself question whether I should be spending time exploring tensions between opposing views. Ultimately I might not give a fig for someone’s view unless I know enough about their expertise and ability to sift information. It’s getting useful information and putting it all together so that a possible scenario can emerge that’s best.
But hearing others points and then asking them questions, and receiving understandable answers back, enables a hypothesis to be developed. It’s groping your way to a real possibility, rather than having sweeping, confident opinions dumped take it or leave it.
What a load of old rubbish I am talking probably anyone would say.
Your comment made perfect sense to me, thank you, although I had to read it twice 😉
Ultimately I might not give a fig for someone’s view unless I know enough about their expertise and ability to sift information.
This is where I differ in opinion; it is the quality of the argument that counts for me and how it is supported by verifiable facts and reasoning. For example, you don’t know anything about my area(s) of expertise yet I am an expert. I do try to let my words do all the talking without having to rely on my known & public credentials. FYI, my credentials would be no help for what I write about anyway.
The learning is done and new insights are being attained between opposing views, not at the extreme ends; this is the nature and pursuit of debate IMO.
Incognito at 11.10 23/10
Actually what I meant about knowing the person, I meant what I can gain as to reliability and honesty from reading their comments, as much as what they actually share about their persona. I respect yours and not only because you occasionally agree with me!
There are others here that I think highly of, and I may never know just who they are or meet them. But their minds are great, and their intellect sparks and their integrity seems good, and if they have some humour and sometimes self-deprecate, I think they are all right!
Free speech always comes with consequences. Telling lies about people is slander and you can be sued for that. You can also be discredited and shunned by others and on a blog banned. It would be very unhealthy if people could say whatever they liked with no consequences. Screaming out fire in a crowded movie theatre when there is no fire should also have consequences.
I do not disagree the slightest. I was not referring to crossing lines but rather to the large grey area, the ‘dark zone’ or ‘desert of discontent’ that you have to transverse before you cross an imaginary line/boundary, a ‘point of no return’.
I found CV intelligent and interesting – didn’t agree with everything but at least someone was thinking and contributing outside the groupthink that can take hold here. Granted I missed the controversy being discussed above by the sound of it.
With that context, it’s quite plausible that if the US had followed a different socio-cultural development the current interpretation of the Second Amendment would focus entirely on the starting bit ” A well-regulated militia…” and there would be no individual right to bear arms at all.
True Andre – but then John Wayne would have been out of a job.. and Roy Rogers.. and the Lone Ranger…. Then where would we get the silver bullet to solve all the world’s problems?…
Here it is, readers of The Standard, our raison d’etre! Chris Trotter describes the driving need for us all to do what we can to support the new Government against the forces of darkness, as exemplified by Richard Prebble, here on this blog and out in the wider world – cool bananas!
“And not only Peters’ protection will be needed. Every progressive New Zealander who understands the magnitude of the fight which Peters’, Ardern’s and Shaw’s decision to pursue “real change” has made inevitable, must be prepared to come to the aid of the three parties – Labour, NZ First and the Greens – which have committed themselves to fulfilling the hopes and dreams of the 50.4 percent of the New Zealand electorate who voted for them.”
Out of the post-election turmoil, let’s hope we can build a better society and government.
Yesterday saw the despair of the WiPeds – those poor souls afflicted with Winston Peters Demonisation Syndrome; and of the JASPs – those other souls in awestruck fear of Jacinda Ardern’s Supernatural Powers.
For the majority of us Pipeds, now is the time to work really hard for the humanisation, and democratisation of politics, economics, and social policy.
Your a regional councillor Robert and I have a lot of time for your enthusiastic support of all things green and I have heard you talk on your bush tucker and your Eden in the south.
The forces of darkness have been working overtime in Canterbury this weekend ,targetting a regional councillor like yourself. I may have missed it because I have been fishing but how can we stop hate crimes like this ?
New Zealand’s new prime minister calls capitalism a ‘blatant failure’
‘If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that’s a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?’
Ms Ardern said: “When you have a market economy, it all comes down to whether or not you acknowledge where the market has failed and where intervention is required. Has it failed our people in recent times? Yes.
“How can you claim you’ve been successful when you have growth roughly three per cent, but you’ve got the worst homelessness in the developed world?”
Capitalism a blatant failure.
On Radionz this am Colin Peacock has had two interesting speakers both giving their take on capitalism and its future moves. I’m really enthused about Paul
Mason’s ideas which provide a framework for the future that mirrors things said on this blog when looking to the future, UBI moves etc.
politics
The future of the labour force
From Labour Day, 8:40 am today
Economics journalist Paul Mason says globalisation has created a whole new class of working people and the world is on the verge of a post-capitalism where work is being reinvented.
politics
Bringing capitalism back from the brink
From Labour Day, 8:10 am today
The face of British business, former UK Minister for Trade – Lord Digby Jones, explains how business and capitalism needs to be fixed to benefit everyone.
The face of British business, former UK Minister for Trade – Lord Digby Jones, explains how business and capitalism needs to be fixed to benefit everyone.
The problem being that it can’t be fixed as the whole point of capitalism is private ownership of everything. Which leaves out all those that can’t own anything because of everything being owned by a few.
Poverty is caused by capitalism and it cannot be corrected because it’s how capitalism operates.
Yep the clue is in the word “capital” + “ism” == worship of money, i.e. “the business of business is business”, building massive glittering edifices of steel and glass to honour their false gods.
As in all things, it shall pass.
As opposed to “socialism” which prioritises social outcomes, i.e. people. The taonga of Aotearoa.
“He tangata, he tangata, he tangata”
A market economy would work if everyone followed the rules. The problem is those with money do not follow the rules and cheat at the market economy every chance they can. They get a National government to break the unions that help the workers get their fair share of the profit to keep wages down artificially low below real market rate. If they are not paying a fair wage to attract local workers, they get a National government to allow them to import cheap labor from outside of the country as another way to help keep the wages artificially low. Greed is the thing that always makes a market economy fail.
They must be repeated later also as some people dont wake up early as we all do.
Some dont have internet or any method other thatn radio broadcast so repeats of these true “public affairs” programs be re-presented again today on “Labour day”
The incomming new Minister of Broadcasting must take the word Steven joyce put behind RNZ (National) out of the broadcasting platform as Political parties names should not be advertised on a Public radio netwok.
Isn’t it controversial that Back Benches burnt down not once but twice I liked watching Wallies mediate on that program they put the neo libreals feet to the coals a few times and helped keep people honest I guess Key could not handle the truth getting out in to the public there is a sure trail to follow there
‘Revealed: China’s network of influence in New Zealand.
A major research paper into China’s soft-power campaign in New Zealand has detailed ………… extensive links between China and former New Zealand politicians and their families, and also highlights significant political donations.
University of Canterbury professor Anne-Marie Brady, the author of the research paper, said she was disturbed by her findings.
“This is about our democracy and about our sovereignty. Anybody who reads the report will find this troubling,” she told the Herald.
Brady said the influence campaign being waged in New Zealand would be of concern regardless of its source.
“It’d be the same if it was any country: it’s not about China, but it’s our country and our democracy where we value freedom of speech and association. It’s our right to choose our government.”
‘Budgeting services in Rotorua say hard-hit families are struggling under the weight of crippling debt.
People were juggling millions of dollars in debt with one agency working to help its clients reduce $12.6m in the year to June.
Rotorua Budget Advisory Service manager Pakanui Tuhura said to the year ended in June it had worked one on one with 564 clients that had a total debt of $12.6m. The majority was owed on mortgages, money to government departments, bank loans, finance company loans and other types of loans.
Its figures show about $4.6m was unsecured debt with $8m secured, while in the year ended in 2016 it had helped 764 clients deal with $19.4m in debt.
Mr Tuhura said unfortunately the clients it dealt with “have pretty much hit rock bottom”.’
What do you think Labour will do to stop stupid poeple from taking drugs that might contain weed killer or fly spray or other poisons that may kill them??
I’m hoping they’ll do the sensible thing and legalise drugs and tax them and sensibly regulate them so they actually contain what’s claimed and not weedkiller or flyspray or whatever else.
And don’t forget the potential TAX revenue, in the states, the tax revenue is not to sniffed at, this revenue can be used directly to support addictions.
It might do to recall that these products were legal and that they have a high incidence of addiction from users.
The stupidity started with decision to make these products legal without concern for the consequences.
Synthetic cannabis is no longer legal, but we still have to deal with the consequences of introducing this toxic product to the public without due consideration and precaution.
You should save your vitriol for Dunne, and those who considered allowing synthetic cannabis to be preferable to the conversation about decriminalising the use of the natural product.
According to 1 herald journalist the Nats will introduce a PMB on Kermadec sanctuary to “drive a wedge” in the coalition… not because a sanctuary is of itself a good idea or in the interests of NZ… but to get back in power sooner.
Not surprising in the least tracey – the strategy of poor losers who are continuing to support an ill-prepared brain-fart that Key used to big-note himself at the UN. If necessary, the coalition can use the English (Parental Leave) veto strategy while engaging in meaningful and transparent dialogue to ensure that a just, viable and legally enforceable sanctuary is established.
Right and the opposition should just sit there and do nothing, the Kermadec sanctuary was a good idea and if the Green party decide to support it then thats how MMP works
Mind you I would have thought the problems with the coalition wouldn’t have started until after they’ve become the actual government
No they should not do nothing. They should be constructive in opposition for a better NZ. A sanctuary that Nats never mentioned during an election campaign seems a strange place to start. Not that they have started anything openly yet
This, if it happens, will do a lot of good for National. It’ll embarrass Labour, it will reiterate what National were saying about NZFirst (though I think National should reach out to NZFirst personally) and will remind the population about how effective National is even when its not in power and, by default, how ineffectual the government is
Throw in the morale boost of sticking it to the government and putting the government on the back foot it can also start to signal to the Greens that maybe, in the future, the Greens don’t have to be Labours poor cousin and maybe a seat in cabinet is a possibility…
Also this is only a possibility because of what Labour was willing to do for power
The only thing the National party was effective at was doing nothing and racking up the largest debt this country has ever seen to pay for their dumfounded tax cut policy that resulted in massive deficits and took nearly a decade to correct.
A New era… or yet another DP trick. But guess we’ll have to wait another day to find out
as “New Zealand First Party refused to say whether the Kermadec proposal was alive or dead.
It said that information would have to await the release of the party’s coalition agreement with Labour on Tuesday….”
National is considering a member’s bill promoting the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary – and potentially driving a wedge between two parties in the new government in the process.
All of the afore mentioned JC when’describing’ Nick Smith.
But is Nick Smith being “malicious, spiteful, hostile, evil-minded, baleful, bitter, evil-intentioned, poisonous, venomous, evil, malign, malignant, rancorous, vicious, vindictive, revengeful, vengeful, pernicious; cruel, fierce, nasty or malevolent” ?
but when a fulla i was docking with complained about mmp and wanted it gone ,
i said it’s the only way to control political party getting out of control as we have no upper house
In these days of people losing connection with rural areas and getting more open-minded about how people relate to each other, “fulla I was docking with” might not get understood the way you meant.
But yeah, MMP makes it more likely compromise and coalition building will be needed for government. But the presence of more than one layer of government won’t prevent elected dictatorships. The only thing that’s saving the US from one right now is the turd tornado’s utter incompetence. And they have three levels of government.
I’ve seen it happen a few times. And been soundly told off when my niece and nephew asked “what’s for dinner” and I told them “Bambi’s mother”. But the sudden vegetarianism usually only lasts until the next bacon fry-up.
It was one of those tasks that convinced me that farming was all about doing automatable tasks by hand whilst sitting on the land and making enough to get get by. While looking for a good capital gain out at the end. Not my scene back in 1977 when I spent a year as a farmhand to make that decision.
I have to change my email because of Vodafone’s clear.net.nz shutting down. Someone replying to my email had it returned address unknown and Vodafone was giving till end of November I thought.
That’s why I still want to keep my landline. When you get into the hands of these flighty capitalist concerns, they are always trying to take over each other, or invent something that will take the others’ business or put them out of business. Half our time is spent on learning new stuff that replaces old stuff that worked okay.
I find it frustrating that big corproations push people to use new technologies in the way they want.
I still prefer landlines for phone and Internet. I can’t understand why so many people have switched to pay for use mobiles, when landline free local calling is still available. i rarely have my mobile switched on, have voicemail for my landline, but businesses especially try to contact me by mobile, and ignore my landline.
Sometimes I don’t switch my mobile on for days or even weeks.
I also prefer my email to come through my computer system. I distrust wifi and clouds and think landlines, and backups to external hard drives, are still more secure.
I am switching to spark, and have to wait til the connection is activated before I get a Spark email account.
I have requested vodafone to forward my mail to a gmail addy in case there is a period between vodafone and spark email accounts.
But, I think vodafone’s email was already not working well, which is why they have closed thee service down.
My vodafone emails to friend in the UK have not got to her for the last year.
gmail is not adequate for all my email – it’s clunky.
While I like many new technologies, I’m mostly selective about the ones I go for. I distrust the motives of big corporations when trying to push us in specific directions.
Vodafone’s internet service drove me back to drink (briefly). It was an unfunny version of the dead parrot sketch spread over weeks. Now I’m with Spark and I’ve found the service reliability and customer relations immensely superior.
Never use Twitter, Instagram etc. Never noticed any deficit in my life for not having them. Someone once titled a book Data Smog and that seems to suit most social media – they obscure instead of reveal and they’re toxic.
I agree, gmail has an awful interface.
Likewise, I still use a landline and I’ve never had a mobile. Christopher Nolan supposedly never uses one either. If he can handle the logistics of big budget films without one, everyday life is easy without one.
I get most of my information from books because they’ve been researched, referenced, attributed, edited, redrafted and critically reviewed.
While I have a voracious appetite for information, I take Mustrum Ridcully’s example with messages – if someone comes up to you with a message, ignore them. If they go away, it wasn’t important or they could deal with it themselves.
In the end, I think that time capsules are even superior to pigeons. Someone opens one up, finds a note and it reads, “Go away, I’m dead.”
I use my Gmail through Thunderbird. The only problem I have with that though is that it’s interface with Google Calendar is rather limited.
I get most of my information from books because they’ve been researched, referenced, attributed, edited, redrafted and critically reviewed.
Well, sometimes anyway. I doubt a book from The Heritage Foundation is any of those things as they’re designed to lead people to the wrong conclusions.
Carolyn-nth
Recently I gave my landline number, which has an answerphone, to a business and they said don’t you have a mobile. Time wasn’t important and I couldn’t see why they dismissed the landline number.
I agree about using emails. This drive to have your whole life targeted at your cellphone, so little, so portable, so slippery, so likely to need constant topping up, I can’t understand.
It seems that people are hypnotised by tech, and conformist to the extreme in all wanting to use it. Also businesses want everything these days, your address, your email, your cellphone, and landline. Stuff them, why, are they going to sell it.
Now the tech mad are talking about not having codes for door locks, and keys are out, and the latest is no plastic cards but eye reading etc. Everything is becoming too complicated, and creates barriers rather than facilitating entry and freedom.
It may be cheaper for those who use mobiles a lot, and feel a need to have a phone connection wherever they go.
For me, who rarely uses a mobile from one month to the next, it looks like the frequent users are being subsidised by those of us who use mobiles only very occasionally.
There may be a bit of that with landlines, but it’s more of a level playing field. And I prefer a landline connection for the Internet – so basically, my mobile is only for emergencies.
It may be cheaper for those who use mobiles a lot, and feel a need to have a phone connection wherever they go.
For those on a benefit WINZ requires you to have a phone. As they don’t then pay for the phone it’s only the cheapest option that works.
For me, who rarely uses a mobile from one month to the next, it looks like the frequent users are being subsidised by those of us who use mobiles only very occasionally.
Pre-pay with most telcos is $20/year.
There may be a bit of that with landlines, but it’s more of a level playing field.
The people being subsidised the most happen to be businesses. Same as retail customers subsidise them on power as well. And the subsidy is huge. When I was at TelstraClear they were actually losing money on business customers but still making a decent profit because of the residential. Meanwhile the business customer were called VIPs.
And I prefer a landline connection for the Internet – so basically, my mobile is only for emergencies.
So do I – it just doesn’t have a phone number on it. Why have a home phone when anybody who calls you is going to call on the mobile?
It is increasingly becoming the case that mobiles seldom get used for voice.
I’m a pretty typical bleeding edge user of technology, and usually shift patterns well before anyone else. I have a moderately expensive plan. It has unlimited voice. Unlimited texts. And 7.5GB of mobile data.
So my average voice this year was 20 minutes per month, and 30 txts. But I average 5.8GB of data over the last year and about 3GB the year before. If I could drop voice and txt and still have a phone number then I would do so. Easy enough to use something like signal or whatsapp.
At home I have unlimited data (mostly for The Standard) and a VOIP landline that costs $10 per month. That is only used for incoming for the elderly and the apartment door.
It has unlimited voice. Unlimited texts. And 7.5GB of mobile data.
To be honest, I’m still amazed that we’re letting the telcos screw us over with the idea of texts and voice minutes which they charge more for. It’s just data and should be charged at the same rate as data.
Did you tell Vodafone your new email address? You need to should you wish for email to be redirected to alternative email address. Voda is doing it for free. Much better than Sparks $20 per month fee if you want to keep @xtra email address when you move elsewhere.
It doesn’t cost anything to have any email sent to my old Spark address forwarded to Gmail – I just used the “push” function that’s available as part of setting up a Gmail account.
Spark does provide free email with a net connection, though.
And, I don’t like any web-based email as a reception for vodafone emails indefinitely.
Ultimately, sometimes we have always had to change ph numbers, addresses, and email addresses.We let people and organisations that matter know of the changes.
Get a gmail account, it’s free and can be accessed anywhere in the world and does’t matter who the internet provider is, it will be the same for the rest of your life.
Thanks NewsFlash
Good advice. I may just have to take it and also revise other that I have received. I am conflicted. When it comes to google I use it so much, and have an email a/c with them which had become a necessity to fit in with others I work with. But I feel that google is right beside me everything I do.
And perhaps I can have my own email a/c separate from the google one connected with my volunteer work. So I was thinking of Outlook which is Spark I think. There are only two I am told. So.. I will have to get onto it next week.
Just been over at KB quite entertaining reading the nonsense, they refer to Jacindarella as the Tooth Fairy, Mr Ed and describe her as flippertigibbert, some quite nasty little people over there at KB or should we call it Hobbitsville.
I think the Hobbits in general were just little people trying to make a life. I don’t think that applies to KW and WO – they try to dissect life, and throw away all the good bits.
So, an industry is now calling for government subsidies to survive?
You’ll note that that industry was quite happy selling all their logs offshore for premium prices when the going was good. Now that it appears to be not so good they’re calling for government assistance.
EDIT:
And. no, I wouldn’t build a high-rise building out of wood. The fire hazard would be atrocious.
The fire hazards are similar. It’s what’s in the building that’s the fire hazard rather than the structure. Steel and concrete structures have to be fire protected so the steel doesn’t loose strength in a fire long enough for everyone to get out. It’s trivial to give a big wooden structure the same protection, and the wooden structure will stand up much better from the heat.
I’m the opposite, I wouldn’t live in a steel framed house because they melt like chocolate in a fire.
Agreed. At a school I was working at, there were 2 Gymnasia (!) together side by side. One was with big Lockwood beams from the early 70s. The other was a tidy, modern steel-frame unit. One fire started by arsonists between the two buildings burnt both badly. Afterwards the Lockwood beams stood proud, badly charred, but in original shape. The steel frames of the modern building slewed in all directions, broken, twisted, and in utter disarray.
I wouldn’t live in a steel framed house because they melt like chocolate in a fire.
1. Neither would I. I’d probably use foam sandwich.
2. We’re actually talking about high-rise buildings which, as you point out, have all the necessary protections built in already. I doubt if it would be trivial to build those protections into a high-rise building made out of wood due to the wood taking up so much more room.
Foam sandwich, huh? What kind of foam core you got in mind?
Every candidate foam I’m aware of either is a fantastic fuel for fires (such as polystyrene as used in panels for coolstores etc), stuffed full of really nasty flame retardants, or really really expensive.
Well, definitely wouldn’t be using polystyrene. That stuff shouldn’t be anywhere near a building.
Haven’t really looked beyond conception yet. More of a if you can build boats out of it then you can build houses out of it and get all the insulation benefits. And, if done right, be a faster build.
And the resins and fibres in it can be sourced from hemp.
Back in the 70’s the old Forest Service built a lot of bridges, with gluelam beams. Some of them were quite big, and to a very high loading for off highway logging trucks. I’d presume they are still standing. I was involved with a couple in Lake Taupo Forest, east of Turangi.
One of the advantages of the material choice was fire performance. A wooden beam will maintain strength in a fire much better than a steel or prestressed concrete one of the same cold strength. Steel looses strength rapidly when it gets hot.
Well, well TS does it again, we come up with some really useful information to give us understanding of what’s going on politically, business-wise and technically.
Thanks Graeme that adds to the general mix of info.
Thousands rally in Malta to honour slain Panama Papers journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia.
Murdered Maltese investigative journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia played a leading role in exposing the role of NZ foreign trusts in international money-laundering.
On Sunday morning, all seven national newspapers had their front pages black in Caruana Galizia’s memory.
Printed in bold letters against the black backgrounds were the words:
“The pen conquers fear.”
Just before her death, Caruana Galizia had posted on her closely followed blog, Running Commentary, that there were “crooks everywhere” in Malta.
The island nation has a reputation as a tax haven in the European Union and has attracted companies and money from outside Europe.
The journalist focused her reporting for years on investigating political corruption and scandals, and reported on Maltese mobsters and the island’s drug trafficking.
She also wrote about Maltese links to the so-called Panama Papers leaks about offshore financial havens.
_________________________________
Political commentator James Debono said that on Monday, Daphne was given the death penalty by someone who thought he was omnipotent.
It was very good that the government would do everything to catch the culprits he said, but that was not enough.
“We do not want to live in a mafia state, we do not want to be the washing machine of dictators’ and criminals’ money,” he said, “we need to show the criminals who killed Daphne that Malta has functioning institutions which we trust.
In the last years, the institutions have failed us, with the Panama scandal being hidden under the carpet.”
________________________________
Panama Papers journalist killed in Malta car bomb | Radio New Zealand News
The Maltese investigative journalist and blogger who led the investigation into the Panama Papers scandal has been killed by a car bomb.
(Includes April 2016 Radio NZ interview with Daphne Caruana Galizia)
_________________________________
So – when is former NZ Prime Minister John Key going to be investigated over the Panama Papers?
On 1 August 2017, the Chair of Transparency International Jose Ugaz stated at a meeting of over 200 people at Rutherford House, Victoria University that John Key should be investigated over the Panama Papers.
How do I know?
I was at that meeting and heard
Transparency International Chair Jose Ugaz say that John Key should be investigated over the Panama Papers, myself.
Well looks like I’m going to get Labour day off checked the weather cam in Tauranga its pisisting down and I would get a wet ass .
Now we can see all the bullshit money sloshing around in our MSM environment .
Prebble well he looks like a washed up bum and he will take anyone money and jump through any hoops I bet he is loving all the new media coverage he is getting so discount any thing he has to say as payed proper-gander.
Key well letts vote with our wallets and boycott anything he is doing in New Zealand .
As he is just setting him self up to launder all the 1% money through New Zealand and this gives him the power/ money to manipulate OUR systems to benefit him and his neo liberal M8. We don’t want him imprinting his bullshit values on US.
Kermadec Isands well my knowledge on this subject stems from my fishing days and observation of our country’s situation at the minute.
Back in the late 80’s we use to see heaps of lights out sea this was a foreign fishing fleet and they were reaping a bonanza and paying minimal money to US for there bounty.
These fishing fleets were more advanced than ours and they new more about our fishery’s than we did so in my view they were ripping US off.
Now the Kermadec are about 800 klm away So if they are made a sanctuary how are we going to protect these assets . It would cost to much to have our Navy or Air force protect these assets .
So in my view the best way to protect and preserve these assets is to have a sustainable fishing system put in place for OUR fishing fleet not a Quoter system but something more sustainable like limited horsepower and technology in that fisheries. As in the trawler industry it is horsepower that ultimately catchiest fish and this horse power could be a trader able asset in this location .This is one of the system that the fishermen wanted back in the day to preserve our fisheries .
And with OUR fishing fleet out there fishing sustainability they will protect our asset as if they see on there radar a boat that is ilegally fishing there they would call our air force and then they will be able to peruse the offender identified them and proceed with prosecution . Now please don’t get pissed off about my view as this is the only way we can protect an preserve OUR Kermadec Island assets and in the prosess we will benefit sustainable an keep foreigners from raiding them you see I did listen when I was a younger. Key wanted to make it a sanctuary and get back hands from his foreign M8 So they could keep raiding our assets Key’s no conservative who has hired him for promoting golf and they were the ones pillaging our fisheries back in the day kick Key OUT Ana Tou Kai
Now the Kermadec are about 800 klm away So if they are made a sanctuary how are we going to protect these assets . It would cost to much to have our Navy or Air force protect these assets .
I’d put a navy station up there and permanently keep some decent patrol ships there.
And, no, it wouldn’t cost too much. That’s a delusion caused by having the profit motive in producing military weaponry.
that too. I’ve been keen on NZ having a polar orbit surveillance satellites for sometime now. And we just so happen to be in a good place to launch them.
People this is about the now this is about a simple acceptable solution to a problem that national will use to dived OUR new coalition government and steal there mana and national will put a lot of effort to stain and strain this new partnership. About cost don’t we already owe 100 Billion + so any simple cost effective solutions to our problems should be grabbed with both arms as this method will mean more resources for our needy and everyone in our new coalition government will have reached there goal . Kei te pai
It’s doable, but it comes down to money weather you single layered or multi layered surveillance system. The issue I have how to enforce it from illegal fishing, so we take a soft or hard nose approach? I know what I want, but it comes with big price tag as well.
About cost don’t we already owe 100 Billion + so any simple cost effective solutions to our problems should be grabbed with both arms as this method will mean more resources for our needy and everyone in our new coalition government will have reached there goal .
And that’s because we’ve all been sold a lie about the basic nature of the economy. We’ve been told that we need to borrow from offshore and that is a lie.
A country/nation never needs to borrow money as it can create the money it needs and, as long as it has resources available and the taxes are done right, it’s non-inflationary.
So the right are carrying on with the lies, and are upping the game with threats of violence.
I see the herald is back to being the poster boy for violence against working people. Now they want a coup to put the pesky people who believe in democracy in their place.
What worries me is the incitement to violence which is so casual in this piece. Yeah the bare faced lies are there, but the casual call for political violence is disturbing, and shows a shift away from democracy for exponents of neo-liberalism.
We need to have the new government investigate if George Soros money is being channelled to NZ spin doctoring and media platforms, as this article shows it is possibly occurring world wide by this very sick man George Soros.
Austria bans Soros for funding the undemining of countries democratic systems..
How many times have you posted this now? At least three that I can think of.
If your article paints a fair picture of Kurz, then the guy’s nuttier than the buffet at a squirrel convention. But one look at the home page of that outfit suggests it’s probably not a fair picture.
There you go again Andre,
Comment without substance.
Read the post!!!!
“We need to have the new government investigate if George Soros money is being channelled to NZ spin doctoring and media platforms,”
I am now sending the message to Government to investigate if Soros money is being used to fund anti Government action such as trolls?
Maybe you can relate to that better than I do as you often send anti labour messages thinly spread I see.
The article was a conspiracy-nut rant devoid of any substantiation. It had precisely zero useful information about Soros and his activities. But it did helpfully let us know Kurz is a 9/11 troofer among his other apparent delusions.
BREAKING NEWS: George Soros Indicted For Voter Machine Fraud And More
April 26, 2017 Admin
BREAKING NEWS: George Soros Indicted For Voter Machine Fraud And More
After the state of Ohio found that voting machines in more than a dozen counties had been tampered with, they tied them directly to the George Soros Corporation. It took the Federal Election Commission less than an hour to get an indictment through the US Attorney after that. In under three hours total, George Soros was photographed sitting in a courtroom waiting to be arraigned.
Soros faces charges of election tampering, wire fraud, electronics fraud and perjury — as well as several smaller charges of inciting violence and harassment — after accounting books found in his office prove he personally paid the Berkely protestors as well as the group of liberal trolls that “goated” 26 conservative Facebook pages in 2014.
If convicted, Soros could face 30 years in prison and fines up to $40 million. He also runs the risk of having his citizenship revoked and being deported to his home country of Hungary. He was released on $10 million bail.
The prosecutor said this is just the beginning of the case against Soros and that it could go right up the rungs of the democratic party, possibly all the way to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
The investigation is ongoing, but he says there is plenty of evidence to try and convict Soros on the charges he already faces.
“do you apply any skepticism at all to what appears on your screen?”
Yes when the shaddy name George Soros comes up as some ‘propose’ him as a saint!!!!
But Soros is simply another elitist member of “The Bilderberg Group”
widely known as “a highly secretive organisation”
Quote; “Soros is a key globalist individual who is essentially a ”front man” for giving a humanitarian and progressive face to globalist agendas. [Note— His supposed speculative investments are often coordinated with the people who create the currency changes he is betting on in the first place, being planned at meetings such as secretive Bilderberg conferences.”
[the IP you are using is attached to multiple IDs which are on a permanent ban. Adding you in too. If you think this is a mistake, email Lynn and make your case. Thanks btw for bringing this to my attention with a troll comment on your first day back after a 6 month ban, it makes our job so much easier. – weka]
Now 31 days since @jacindaardern last tweeted. What a waste of 100,000 followers when all eyes are on you as you form a new government. #nzpol— Gwynn Compton (@gwynncompton) October 22, 2017
I agree, although there has been a bit more action on her Facebook account since the election but little in the last week. https://www.facebook.com/jacindaardern/
Jacinda seems to do all her own social media on Twitter and Facebook, so it is perhaps understandable that she has had little time particularly in the last week.
In terms of her age and tertiary qualifications in Communications, social media seem important to her and she uses Facebook brilliantly* – but she is unlikely to be able to maintain these by herself in future. So I am hopeful she sees it as a priority to get help with this asap as it would be a shame to waste the vast number of followers she has on both Twitter and Facebook.
* Her two little ‘at home’ videos on the evening of the election (23 Sept) and the next day after the BBQ are well managed little ‘glimpses into life in the Ardern/Gayford household’.
But Paddles Ardern-Gayford now has a new Twitter account (“(Independent cat – not affurliated with the Labour Pawty”) with over 245 tweets in just two days!
veutoviper
Why not tweet Jacinda and suggest having a helper with her tweets to her. I thought that twitter was supposed to be good for getting personal thoughts to the individual more directly.
LOL, I am not actually signed up to Twitter! I am strictly a ‘voyeur’ when it comes to Twitter and have no desire to join as it can be a very toxic environment.
However, it is an excellent early information system to things happening before they hit the news. A quirk of the Twitter system is that if you don’t actually belong, you can read most Twitter accounts without following that account except where the account is fully protected – and you cannot also be blocked.
I have other direct communications channels to certain Labour (and other) MPs etc so will raise maintaining Jacinda’s social media accounts and providing help with them, but suspect it will be me telling much more social media qualified people ‘how to suck eggs’ so to speak!
In the meantime Paddles the cat’s Twitter account is getting a great worldwide following and is a lot of fun.
One other thing that got my scepticism going was that piece on news hub about vandalism down south on those dairy farms for one what would some intelligent people who are pro our environment gain from doing that stupid shit well nothing but bad publicity
against there cause come on these people are not stupid.
Whom is part of that story and could not hold a strait face to the camera well he is no other than Derek Crombie chief executive of the central plains water irrigation scheme.
So I say there is a conflict of interest going on there a smear campaign against OUR green movement. Where is all the proof one Tyre with a hole drilled in it a shot of a 10.000 ltr milk tank well that’s no proof in my view. these farmers are not coming up with this shit by them selves someone else is driving this deceit I have a good idea whom it is and I say that this threat to OUR new coalition Government should be taken as a threat to OUR national security and these people be found and prosecuted to stop this propergander and a pro advising campaign like no other all around our world put heaps of effort and resorces into it Like Bill Gates whom just had a ordinary operating sustems but he used advertising win the world over to his prouduct and this will guarantee our governments success to run Tautoko OUR fledgling Coalition Government Kia Kaha
And Bill Gates has more soft power than many countrys now and other power. This advertising campaign will benefit our exporters to so lets do this We have to win the world over to our ideals to win in the long game of things 100 + years
And the day to launch this campaign is the day that Winston crowns our new Queen prime opportunity to make a lasting impression of our new positive coalition government to the World. I’m making a donation to the Labour party now .
Please take this opportunity seriously as opportunity knocks but once and this is a great opportunity cement our new coalition government into power for a decade.
Did you hear how Trump was nice to Jacaranda and New Zealand .
That’s because we have a loud voice in most of the country’s in our world a voice that can influence people to see there reality and join the cause for mother earth and equality He should be nice to everyone .Lett’s start this promotional campain for our coalition Government and show the rest of the world there reality Ka pai
When one is sailing a Waka one does not shift the load to fast as this could cause the Waka to sink. I.E If wages are lifted to fast this will justifies some neo libral employers to say the sky is falling on there head and sack some staff and this will help the neo libral cause and one will have to check that the cargo in not rotten before they can make promises to dish it out Kapai.
Labour have already signalled that this is just the first step. Remember, too, that they’re also promising a move to the living wage for state sector employees, an end to the 90 Days’ Bill (no more “fire at will”, bringing in a “referee” service), honouring the equal pay recommendations of the recent working group, instituting Fair Pay Agreements for workers in exploitative industries… I’m not saying that we shouldn’t aim for a bigger shift over time, but let’s celebrate the good stuff, too!
I agree that a staggered approach is important to avoid sinking employers, but National have put minimum wage up every year since they were in office, generally 50c/hr, so IMO Labour have to put it up enough to significantly improve upon that.
And if everyone makes a donation for this positive advertising campaign to Tautoko our new coalition Government we will have our fair and equal society influencing the rest of the world to to change to a fair and equal WORLD this is what we need to do as this is the way our world works ka pai
Seeing as Labour won’t increase core benefit rates and the Greens were unable to secure it as a win, is there any possibility of beneficiaries getting a little extra over Christmas and long weekends? Giving them more fiscal scope to get together with their family and friends.
I agree with both of those points. That said, the review will ensure people actually get paid their full entitlements which will go a long way to get more money into people’s hands. Also, while I don’t think the review encompasses the actual rates specifically, it covers:
The welfare system will be overhauled. Specific promises include ensuring access to entitlements, removing “excessive sanctions” and reviewing Working for Families “so that everyone has a standard of living and income that enables them to live in dignity”.
While ensuring people receive their full entitlements is important and will help some (a number are already receiving their full entitlements) we must keep in mind full entitlements have largely been insufficient since the Ruth Richardson cuts.
As for improving Working for Families, it does nothing for families who’s children are no longer young and for those that don’t have dependents.
Whose, not who’s. Who’s means either who is or who has.
Chairman, you have been trying so earnestly to appear genuinely left-wing, but here you are concern trolling again, casting gloom over policies, and urging towards policies you secretly hope will alienate the public.
I just want other, new readers to be aware of you.
Of course, I may be wrong, and I am sure you will protest…
I’m merely shining the light of reality over policy. If that casts them in a gloomy way, it’s because in reality, they are.
If you are unhappy with that, blame the ones who created it, not the ones who highlight the flaws.
I advocate my own policy suggestions that I believe are required, thus will help. Moreover, are likely to muster support.
When it comes to you speculating on my positioning, you’ve always been wrong. And as I’ve told you (and a number of others) it’s not about me. So if you want to keep banging on about me, you can do it from the sideline.
Gloom is a matter of perspective. We’re just walking out of a dark cave of tory government, and you’re the dude looking at the sky and complaining it’s a little bit cloudy.
Most normal people are still blinking and trying to adjust to the new light level and warmth.
There’s been a few posts made since the give a little extra post (at 29) was made, therefore I sincerely hope it’s a case of the post not being noticed rather than an indication of the lack of support.
I noticed just now but first time I’ve looked at OM today so that’s my excuse 🙂
There’s been a “Christmas bonus” for beneficiaries in the UK forever, as far as I know it was still happening a couple of years ago despite the horrendous situation they’re in; I will check with my friend there tomorrow to see if she still gets it.
Of course one should be given here. Ethically and morally an increase for cost of living is more justified but we’re not naive enough to think that will happen. It hasn’t for 25 years, why change the habit of a generation now?
“There’s been a Christmas bonus for beneficiaries in the UK forever”
Interesting, I was unaware of that.
Unfortunately, Labour won’t commit to increasing core benefit rates, therefore a Christmas bonus would be better than nothing. And I thank you for your support.
I was surprised the Greens couldn’t even secure that (a Christmas bonus) from Labour, but at least they’re happy with their 3 MPs (outside of cabinet).
To be fair, perhaps they (the Greens) didn’t even consider it. Therefore, it could be something they could consider and help advocate for now?
It would be like getting Scrooge to have a change of heart at Christmas to get some extra for the bennies. And it should be only for the under 65s.
The poor things they do need it very badly some of them and while us oldies could do with more we tend to do better and get better treatment.
Jacinda comes across as very caring, but this would certainly put her to the test. If she knocks this back as well (Labour refused to increase core benefit rates) then she would be a “Scrooge”.
To be fair, the extra payment should be across the board.
The Government would get a lot of it back in tax as it is spent throughout the economy. And businesses would get a surge in demand.
Which would help appease a number on the right, giving it support from both sides, making it less of a political risk.
If enough of us here support and join in this cause, do you think we (through our combined blogging power and this site) could influence the new Government into paying out an Xmas bonus by this Christmas?
Why would businesses hosting online material take a long time to take down offensive or vicious material? A. Because their income and usefulness as a medium for others to interact with is affected by clicks and if there is a controversy, they will get more of those. A deviant system that feeds on others’ dramas and distress more than on the lesser results from good, happy events and news.
This happened to someone very tech savvy and now as a way of hopefully preventing it, there is a site to go to.
Likes there already something like ‘ethical investing’ by which people can demand their investment (e.g. pension/superannuation) not be invested in something they consider unethical (e.g. weapons industry). Similar pressure can and should be applied to advertisers who place their ads on ‘dubious’ or contentious websites. These advertisers should never be able to use the argument (excuse) that they didn’t know because they were only looking at a spreadsheet containing numbers of clicks and dollars earned, for example.
Good link GWS we need to come up with some innovative Ideas to clean that shit up I would not be a happy Grandfather if anyone does that to my grandchildren keep up the good work Zoe Quinn Ka pai
I see that the voice of the ‘Road freight Transport’ industry is now all over the media groaning about the shortage of “truck drivers”
I have heard this said by the road transport Forum Ken Shirey and his associated shills have said this, from memory at least four times this year!!!!
Perhaps Ken Shirley needs to read the incomming Government ‘policies on land transport’ as even Heather du plessis alllen said it right in the NZH yesterday that the new labour lead government is hell bent on moving a lot more freight back to rail well good on them!!!!
So then our roads are again much safer and cheaper to maintain and our CO2 emission targets will be reached with no more penalties to us all.
I say that is a win win win for us all – as we dont need more imported cowboy truck drivers that would be just cheap labour for the trucking industry sorry.
Here is the article for Ken Shirley’s information.
NZ HERALD SAYS THIS; The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up
our highway network are numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are
obsessed with getting freight off our roads and back on the railways.
NZ Herald.
NEW ZEALAND
Heather du Plessis-Allan: Winners and losers of the new Government
22 Oct, 2017 5:00am
Jacinda Ardern will be New Zealand’s next Prime Minister but who
really won when New Zealand First decided to back Labour.
By:
Heather du Plessis Allan
Heather du Plessis-Allan is a columnist for the Herald on Sunday
Change is coming. Big change. That much Winston Peters has told us.
Exactly what that means we won’t know until the new government reveals
its coalition policy deals in the next few days. But still, we have
enough hints and clues to already declare some winners and losers.
WINNERS
Anyone with a car
The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up our highway network are
numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are obsessed with getting
freight off our roads and back on the railways.
Yes she is Ed but the ‘meat is sweeter closer to the bone”
As Heather’s article cuts across national ‘ideology ‘ of using road transport for everything in NZ did not feature in Du plessis allen’s article, so it is useful to us on the rail side.
Finlay Macdonald
‘Wait till he hears about the penis tax.’
Chris Mugford
‘maybe you and Mike Hoskings can carpool to save costs’
Ian Grant
‘Or move to New York and live in trump tower where you won’t have any complaints’
DaveMac
‘That’s fine, we had several years of getting our heads round stupid statements from f..kwits like you most mornings, & as for slow batting..’
Bronwyn Cross
‘Rich, entitled, white men whining about the cost of coffee get what they deserve. ‘
William Mason
‘if tht’s all you’ve gt 2 moan abt the new govt then u shud spend time helping ppl @ the city mission buttercup’
Yes Mark’s a tosser lol.
Many thanks for the Big man that Tautoko me that while I was band for 9 days he comes from the same city that I have decided to build my Maunga in Rotorua you been playing good M8 and yes they are still giving me the underarm bowl .
I like the way you Tautoko OUR youth Kia kaha Big man.
National would have upped the price of his morning latte during their term in power more than anything Labour will do. Remember when National promised no tax increases and increased GST claiming it was not a tax increase. That would have rocketed the cost of his morning latte quite a bit. Labour should consider increasing PAYE a bit and lowering GST to reverse the tax swap National did. Most of those in the middle class will notice little difference and it will only really affect those on higher incomes and lower incomes by increasing lower incomes spending power and fractionally lowing those on higher incomes a bit.
The lower cost of morning lattes would surely help them out anyway.
I used to visit his blog site fairly regularly. Brian used to be the foil to Boag on RNZ’s “The Panel,” but recently has appeared to be confused as to where he stood on the political spectrum. http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz. He hasn’t, to date, posted a comment on the new left of centre government.
Rob MacCulloch writes – Can’t remember the last book by a Kiwi author you read? Think the NZ government should spend less on the arts in favor of helping the homeless? If so, as far as Newsroom is concerned, you probably deserve to be called a cultural ignoramus ...
Eric Crampton writes – Grudges are bad. Better to move on. But it can be fun to keep a couple of really trivial ones, so you’re not tempted to have other ones. For example, because of the rootkit fiasco of 2005, no Sony products in our household. ...
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Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech: AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
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In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This week’s announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House – but it’s not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand: The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasury’s forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
Winston Peters’ comments about former Australian foreign minister look set to be an ongoing headache for both him and Luxon. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts and , along with regular guests on Gaza and ...
These puppet strings don't pull themselvesYou're thinking thoughts from someone elseHow much time do you think you have?Are you prepared for what comes next?The debating chamber can be a trying place for an opposition MP. What with the person in charge, the speaker, typically being an MP from the governing ...
The land around Lyme Regis, where Meryl Streep once stood, in a hood, on the Cobb, is falling into the sea.MerylThe land around Lyme Regis, around the Cobb that made it rich, has always been falling slowly but surely into the sea. Read more ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters was bound to win headlines when he set out his thinking about AUKUS in his speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. The headlines became bigger when – during an interview on RNZ’s Morning Report today – he criticised ...
The Post reports on how the government is refusing to release its advice on its corrupt Muldoonist fast-track law, instead using the "soon to be publicly available" refusal ground to hide it until after select committee submissions on the bill have closed. Fast-track Minister Chris Bishop's excuse? “It's not ...
As pressure on it grows, the livestock industry’s approach to the transition to Net Zero is increasingly being compared to that of fossil fuel interests. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / Getty ImagesTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above ...
The New Zealand Herald reports – Stats NZ has offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all of its workers as a way to give staff some control over their “future” amidst widespread job losses in the public sector. In an update to staff this morning, seen by the Herald, Statistics New Zealand ...
On Werewolf/Scoop, I usually do two long form political columns a week. From now on, there will be an extra column each week about music and movies. But first, some late-breaking political events:The rise in unemployment numbers for the March quarter was bigger than expected – and especially sharp ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: TVNZ says it is dealing with about 50 formal complaints over its coverage of the latest 1News-Verian political poll, with some viewers – as well as the Prime Minister and a former senior Labour MP – critical of the tone of the 6pm report. ...
Muriel Newman writes – When Meridian Energy was seeking resource consents for a West Coast hydro dam proposal in 2010, local Maori “strenuously” objected, claiming their mana was inextricably linked to ‘their’ river and could be damaged. After receiving a financial payment from the company, however, the Ngai Tahu ...
Alwyn Poole writes – “An SEP,’ he said, ‘is something that we can’t see, or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it’s like a ...
Our trust in our political institutions is fast eroding, according to a Maxim Institute discussion paper, Shaky Foundations: Why our democracy needs trust. The paper – released today – raises concerns about declining trust in New Zealand’s political institutions and democratic processes, and the role that the overuse of Parliamentary urgency ...
This article was prepared for publication yesterday. More ministerial announcements have been posted on the government’s official website since it was written. We will report on these later today …. Buzz from the BeehiveThere we were, thinking the environment is in trouble, when along came Jones. Shane Jones. ...
New Zealand now has the fourth most depressed construction sector in the world behind China, Qatar and Hong Kong. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 8:46am on Thursday, May 2:The Lead: ...
Hi,I am just going to state something very obvious: American police are fucking crazy.That was a photo gracing the New York Times this morning, showing New York City police “entering Columbia University last night after receiving a request from the school.”Apparently in America, protesting the deaths of tens of thousands ...
Winston Peters’ much anticipated foreign policy speech last night was a work of two halves. Much of it was a standard “boilerplate” Foreign Ministry overview of the state of the world. There was some hardening up of rhetoric with talk of “benign” becoming “malign” and old truths giving way to ...
Graham Adams assesses the fallout of the Cass Review — The press release last Thursday from the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls didn’t make the mainstream news in New Zealand but it really should have. The startling title of Reem Alsalem’s statement — “Implementation of ‘Cass ...
This open-for-business, under-new-management cliché-pockmarked government of Christopher Luxon is not the thing of beauty he imagines it to be. It is not the powerful expression of the will of the people that he asserts it to be. It is not a soaring eagle, it is a malodorous vulture. This newest poll should make ...
The latest labour market statistics, showing a rise in unemployment. There are now 134,000 unemployed - 14,000 more than when the National government took office. Which is I guess what happens when the Reserve Bank causes a recession in an effort to Keep Wages Low. The previous government saw a ...
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Over the past 36 hours, Christopher Luxon has been dong his best to portray the centre-right’s plummeting poll numbers as a mark of virtue. Allegedly, the negative verdicts are the result of hard economic times, and of a government bravely set out on a perilous rescue mission from which not ...
Auckland Transport have started rolling out new HOP card readers around the network and over the next three months, all of them on buses, at train stations and ferry wharves will be replaced. The change itself is not that remarkable, with the new readers looking similar to what is already ...
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Have a story to share about St Paul’s, but today just picturesPopular novels written at this desk by a young man who managed to bootstrap himself out of father’s imprisonment and his own young life in a workhouse Read more ...
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Education Minister Erica Standford yesterday unveiled a fundamental reform of the way our school pupils are taught. She would not exactly say so, but she is all but dismantling the so-called “inquiry” “feel good” method of teaching, which has ruled in our classrooms since a major review of the New ...
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Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as “its largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff”. ...
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span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the country’s leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that “corrupt” the nation’s ...
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With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
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Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
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The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
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The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
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The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Asia Pacific Report The prosecutor’s office at the International Criminal Court (ICC) has appealed for an end to what it calls intimidation of its staff, saying such threats could constitute an offence against the “administration of justice” by the world’s permanent war crimes court. The Hague-based office of ICC Prosecutor ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk A women’s union in New Caledonia has staged a sit-in protest this week to support senior Kanak indigenous journalist Thérèse Waia, who works for public broadcaster Nouvelle-Calédonie la Première, after a smear attack by critics. The peaceful demonstration was held on ...
New Zealand Food Safety is monitoring overseas recalls of Indian packaged spice products manufactured by MDH and Everest due to concerns over a cancer-causing pesticide. ...
By Stephen Wright and Stefan Armbruster of BenarNews Fiji’s ranking in a global press freedom index has jumped into the top tier of countries with free or mostly free media after its government last year repealed a draconian law that threatened journalists with prison for doing their jobs. Fiji’s improvement ...
We might be in Invercargill but all anyone can talk about is Gore. Specifically, Salford Street. That’s where three-year-old Lachlan Jones lived, south of the centre of town, between the A&P Showgrounds and the Mataura River. Roughly 1.2 km away from the single level home he lived in with his ...
MONDAY I lined up the latest round of civil servants from city hall against the wall, and signalled for the firing squad to drop their rifles. I stepped up onto a wooden crate to look at the office workers in the eye. But that didn’t feel right, so I found ...
Keen hiker and second-year MSc student Liam Hewson wears two hats when he’s in the great outdoors. “The scientist in me appreciates nature and goes, ‘Oh, there’s that thing and there’s another thing,’ but then the tramper and the outdoorsy person in me thinks, ‘Cool bush.’” Born and bred in ...
After a long and illustrious career as a goal kicker, Dan Carter’s favourite way to unwind is… kicking goals. Why can’t he get enough of it? And what it’s like to watch him do it for an hour straight? A semicircle of people wielding cameras and phones has formed in ...
Dame Susan Devoy takes us through her life in television, including late night ER debriefs, her proudest CTI moment and the show she watches in secret. Quite aside from her four world champion squash titles, Dame Susan Devoy will likely go down in history as one of the best Celebrity ...
Hera Lindsay Bird reveals the best places in Ōtepoti to score more for your apocalypse-prep book hoard.Sometimes I get the feeling I’ve been killed in a car crash, and this second half of my life is just the brain unspooling itself, like one of those episodes of a hospital ...
ThreeNow’s new murder mystery series takes us on a dark, damp journey into the Australian wilderness.This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. High Country is ThreeNow’s new Australian eight-part crime drama, set in a remote part of the Victorian highlands. It tells ...
Introducing a new way to read The Spinoff every weekend. After nearly 10 years of being an online magazine, we’re finally embracing the weekend liftout. Despite our best efforts to convince you otherwise, writers and editors at The Spinoff don’t work weekend. It is through the sheer power of technology ...
Tip one: let yourself be nurtured by this big old man. Tip two: don’t ask him to adopt you. So, you’ve arrived at your first session with a new therapist. He tells you to make yourself comfortable and you opt for the tweed armchair, hoping it makes you look like ...
I didn’t know books could open you back up; that there were books that stayed with you, where reading was like a chemical event. I knew nothing.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.Not too long ago, I was listening to the American ...
Former Olympic swimmer James Magnussen has already started training for the Enhanced games, though says he won’t start taking performance enhancing substances until about nine months out from the competition. The Australian world champion was the first athlete to be announced by Enhanced, but he says the organisation has had ...
Everyone thinks he’s dead. Every day they expect his body to be washed up along the coast. Most likely up Karitane way, the way the tide’s running. But nobody’ll be too surprised if his body’s never found. Even in death he wouldn’t have wished for such attention. He would have ...
Council members voted 21 to 4 in favour of Ahluwalia returning to the Laucala campus following a much-awaited meeting in Vanuatu this week. It comes as USP and its two unions — the Association of the University of the South Pacific Staff (AUSPS) and the Administration and Support Staff Union ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicola Henry, Professor & Australian Research Council Future Fellow, Social and Global Studies Centre, RMIT University Shutterstock Following an emergency meeting of the National Cabinet this week, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced a raft of measures to tackle the problem ...
Analysis - A poll showing the opposition is more popular than the government raises questions, politicians go through their 'trial by pay rise' and a Green MP loses her cool in the debating chamber. ...
The entire stretch of Tokomaru Bay on the East Coast will be subject to a joint customary marine title for two hapū, and extending up to four miles out to sea. A High Court judge has found the two groups, who during the case settled a dispute over boundaries for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Hall, Lecturer, Media & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University A longstanding feud between TikTok and Universal Music Group seems to have finally reached an end, with both parties signing a deal that will see Universal-backed music returned to the social media ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Siobhan O’Dean, Postdoctoral Research Associate, The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use, University of Sydney After several highly publicised alleged murders of women in Australia, the Albanese government this week pledged more than A$925 million over five years ...
Political parties have now fully disclosed the donations they received last year - with National getting more than double the cash of any other party. ...
A Pacific regionalism expert has called out New Zealand's Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters for withholding information from the public on AUKUS military pact. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard de Grijs, Professor of Astrophysics, Macquarie University Bruno Scramgnon/Pexels All systems are “go” for tonight’s launch of China’s next step in a carefully planned lunar exploration program. Placed on top of a powerful Long March 5 rocket, the Chang’e 6 ...
National returned a massive donation the day after a Newsroom story linked the donors to a property being investigated for operating unlawfully as a migrant workers’ hostel. The party’s 2023 donation filings, released on Friday, show it returned a $200,000 donation from Buen Holdings on August 23. That was the ...
Pacific Media Watch New Zealand has slumped to an unprecedented 19th place in the annual Reporters Without Borders World Press Freedom Index survey released today on World Press Freedom Day — May 3. This was a drop of six places from 13th last year when it slipped out of its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Joshua Black, Political Historian and Administrator Officer, Australian Historical Association, Australian National University Australia has had its fair share of public record-keeping controversies in recent years. Some have been mere farce, as in the case of two formerly government-owned filing cabinets (containing ...
Heavenly Culture, World Peace, Restoration of Light (HWPL), a United Nations-affiliated organization dedicated to fostering peace through civilian-led initiatives, has issued a statement in response to the escalating conflict between Israel and Iran. ...
A poem by Tessa Keenan, from AUP New Poets 10. Mātou These days we are a photograph; one of a farm strewn with cows that used to be bright harakeke or swamp. The kids point at it and say the sun sits behind a smudge (left by someone at Christmas); ...
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Marriage and civil union statistics record the number of marriages and civil unions registered in New Zealand each year, and divorce statistics record the number of divorces granted in New Zealand each year. Key facts Marriages and civil unions In ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lennon Y.C. Chang, Associate Professor of Cyber Risk and Policy, Deakin University Taiwan stands out as a beacon of democracy, innovation and resilience in an increasingly autocratic region. But this is under growing threat. In recent years, China has used a variety ...
In this excerpt from her new memoir, Dame Susan Devoy remembers her turn as star contestant on the 2022 season of Celebrity Treasure Island. The most anxious time of every day was pre-elimination, when you knew this could be your final day on the show. I felt such contradictory emotions, ...
A week that began in triumph ended in an all-too-familiar disaster for the Green Party. Duncan Greive asks if there’s something in the mission that breaks its best and brightest. A long, strange week for the Green party began with a fantastic poll result. On one level this is hardly ...
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The striking report goes far beyond the proposed repeal of the Oranga Tamariki Act’s Treaty of Waitangi provision, and its impact should be felt far beyond the unique circumstances of the claim it addresses. Earlier this week, the Waitangi Tribunal released an interim report on the government’s proposed repeal of ...
The world has been experiencing a productivity slowdown, from which New Zealand has not been exempt. COVID-19 temporarily boosted labour productivity, but more recently, productivity has retreated. The overall trend since 2007 has been one of slow productivity ...
What’s more wasteful than spending $315k on syrup and machine maintenance? Trying to drum up a controversy about it.Cast your mind back to the pre-pandemic idylls of 2019. A “rat” was a disgusting rodent and not a self-administered plague test; the sixth Labour government was in power; and the ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Rose, Professor of Sustainable Future Transport, University of Sydney LanaElcova/Shutterstock Electric vehicles are often seen as the panacea to cutting emissions – and air pollution – from transport. Is this view correct? Yes – but only once uptake accelerates. Despite the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Giselle Natassia Woodley, Researcher and Phd Candidate, Edith Cowan University There is widespread agreement Australia needs to do better when it comes to gender-based violence. Anger and frustration at the numbers of women being killed saw national rallies over the weekend and ...
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Bob Carr intends to launch legal action against Winston Peters and Julie Anne Genter is facing a second allegation of bullying. Both sucked the air out of an announcement on education, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in ...
In 1995, Sally Clark went out on her own in a bold and unorthodox attempt to join an illustrious group of equestrian riders conquering the world. In the days of glovebox road maps, brick cell phones, and the hit song How Bizarre, Clark refused to follow Sir Mark Todd, Blyth ...
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To celebrate the start of New Zealand music month, we look back at the best local tuneage that managed to weasel its way into Hollywood productions. There’s nothing quite like the thrilling zap of recognition when New Zealand weasels its way into a glamorous Hollywood production. Crack open a Tui ...
People trust other people more than institutions. So how can the media gain that trust through journalists without losing what’s important about the institution? Anna Rawhiti-Connell reflects on two years of curating the news for The Bulletin.Amonth ago, armed cops descended on my neighbourhood as calls to “lock your ...
A warning – suicide is discussed in this podcast New Zealand’s own long-running soap Shortland Street doesn’t hesitate to kill off its much-loved characters. But would TVNZ dare to kill off our favourite soap? That’s the fear as times get tough in television – even though it’s been pointed out ...
Is today the day the door opens on CV’s cage? Should we have a pool for how long from when he emerges until he earns another ban? I give it five hours.
If that’s Tat Loo, he’s very active on Twitter, and more rabidly weird as ever.
Was he rabidly weird or offering different points of view than those being conformed to by the majority? And getting angry and combative to those disagreeing with him, and sneering at him? There is an inability to allow free speech if it disagrees with the ‘in-group’ who Know All. He steps outside the circle.
Yes, calling Infowars a reliable news source and praising Hitler for “making Germany great” and lying directly to and about moderators (against site rules) is “stepping outside the circle” if you want to put it that way.
Dude’s gone full Suze Dawson/Daily Caller/Stefan Molyneux.
I’d prefer Dr Amp.
CV spends too much time reading https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/ in search of “deeper truth”. Not healthy, I think he’s lost perspective. He’s not “left” any more that’s for sure.
Ok ropata
Just wondered, he seemed to change during the time he was here.
And I think that he did lose perspective. Shame. It is important to step aside a cool the brain. Too much thinking and input from one-line drives you mad IMO.
I don’t support giving free speech to rabidly misogynist neo-nazis.
That’s’ quite a mouthful; do you want fries with that 😉
Seriously though, free speech is free speech. Shouldn’t we tolerate the intolerable?
Nope.
I agree with Karen – free speech is like a free lunch, and really there isn’t one. There is a limit that cannot, should not be tolerated. But where the limit is has to be thought about.
People being awkward and demanding that another point of view should be considered by the entrenched and the prejudiced, can raise hate against that sort of free speech.
People mocking the good efforts of sincere people – there needs to be a limit. Repetition is tiresome after the fourth/fifth time?
I agree that free speech comes at a cost: eternal vigilance.
Moral and legal boundaries are fuzzy and subjective human constructs, not absolute Laws of Nature.
Once you start to limit free speech because of perceived or anticipated risk or because of mockery or tiresome remarks or because of general dislike and disagreement you start to erode the fundamental basic principle of freedom and choice. But there’s more to it; it is an immensely complex issue:
Hannah Arendt
Can we agree that people may freely speak their minds but it doent mean without consequence, seen and unseen? I dunno.
Agreed.
Indeed, what would be the point of writing something online if it had no intended consequence? I always try and keep in mind the silent readers (‘lurkers’) of TS.
Whenever someone shouts ‘But I have freedom of speech!’ to justify malicious speech, remind them that they do not have freedom from consequences.
Not really.
What people say in your dining room is up to you. If you don’t like them, they don’t get invited to dinner.
That’s all that happened here – he was entertaining and interesting, but became an obnoxious jerk, and then went well off the deep end into being nothing more than a crudely offensive liar. Invitation:revoked.
Disagree to a point. There are a few people I socialise with because I really like them but their political views I utterly disagree with. Sounds like a contradiction, doesn’t it? That’s people and human relationships for you 😉
I find that there’s enormous leeway here on TS on what people can say, which is as it should be IMO; a reflection of how we like society to be perhaps? That said, there are clear rules here and if these get repeatedly violated then this has obvious consequences. However, this is not an argument against free speech, rather the opposite IMHO.
I most certainly don’t like everything that appears here on TS but I would not want any of that content be blocked or banned solely for that reason – nobody would know anyway and taken to extreme, everything would be blocked because there’s always one that disagrees. In fact, I’d like to read more counter-arguments and proper debate here between mature people; the day I’d agree with everything that gets written here on TS is the day I’d leave this site because life is too short to be constantly nodding in agreement with essentially and effectively myself …
I hope I explained this well enough; as I said, it is a hugely complex issue.
On the personal level, yeah, you like those folks. But people we don’t like, we don’t socialise with.
With regards to the wider “free speech” issue, whether legally some things should be banned, of course things like incitement to violence should be banned.
And frankly, I think nazis/neonazis/tikitorchists come under that level. When someone gets to the degree that they’re yelling, in the bible-belt US, “the Jews will not replace us”, that’s a contagious paranoia that can only lead to violence.
Hi McFlock,
Thanks for replying.
I guess I wasn’t clear enough, my bad. I like “those folks” enough to socialise with them but I vehemently dislike their political and racist views. Somehow, I can look/move past their ‘objectionable’ views because it doesn’t fully describe or define them, if that makes any sense.
Yes, there have to be boundaries but these are almost always very fuzzy and open to interpretation and dependent on context, etc. It never is black & white, thankfully or unfortunately …
Inciting violence crosses a line. Making threats crosses a line. But somebody with extreme views is allowed to speak as long as he/she doesn’t cross certain lines. Similarly, unless somebody poses a definite risk (…) to the community (or State) there’s nothing that can and should be done to silence this person (or lock them up). The real question is not so much where to draw the line but how to avoid or prevent the line from being crossed by when it is already too late. Free speech might actually help although it can be a double-edged sword …
@ McFlock
Yes I agree – and when someone takes over the discussion – shouts everyone else down – turns everything to what they think, and dominates to the exclusion of everyone else. Is that “freedom of speech” tolerable? Particularly if they are merely parroting memes from propaganda sites?
@incognito
I am friends and have amiable relationships with the occasional tory, but not nazis. They’re jerks. Because nazi. Not just because their views are different to mine, but mostly because the nature of nazi beliefs means that they want someone with my beliefs (i.e. not nazi) to die. Because that’s what nazis do: make non-nazis die.
As for fuzzy boundaries, that’s what courts are for. When in doubt, charge them and let the courts sort it out.
I thought CV banned himself when he decided TS was overrun by PC SJWs
Nope there was a ban in place for one month past the election. Essentially tomorrow. But it was set for today, so I removed a pile of bans last night.
People left the site last year because of what was going on. So for me it’s not an issue of free speech. Everyone in NZ is free to say what they like up to the limits of the law around things like inciting race hatred or violence. But they don’t all have equal access to publishing.
On TS it’s an issue of supporting robust debate for the widest range of people possible within the aims of the site (the labour movement).
When you have people being anti-social from their racism, sexism etc, it’s not a problem of their views but their behaviour.
@ McFlock,
My friendships can be quite complex, I admit; I’m a complex person myself.
The courts are there to determine whether legal boundaries have been crossed. The BSA deals with other kinds of complaints, etc. Who decides when/where moral/ethical boundaries have been crossed? It depends on the realm and nature of the transgression or alleged violation of the rules. But generally speaking, morality is less well covered than legal boundaries by the Law and for good reasons I think …
It may be better to distinguish between the freedom of speech here on TS and the fundamental right that is freedom of speech for every citizen in a democracy such as ours; there’s much overlap/similarity, of course, but they are not one and the same thing.
I feel it is beyond my ‘remit’ as occasional Guest Poster to do a post in this but I’m tempted; it is obviously a contentious issue, as this thread and a very recent exchange in OM have shown, and potentially risky as it might ‘test’ the boundaries of TS rules …
You’re definitely safer doing it as a post than as comments. I’m a lot more willing to give more time and latitude to the former than I do to the latter.
The reason is obvious. We usually have something between 25-60 posts a week and about 12 of those are routine ones, OpenMike etc. But we can have 1500-8000 comments in week, and that is after I automatically chop a thousand or so of comments with prefilters for robots. (I have been promising some stats on that for a while without having the time to pull them off).
Anyway, the amount of time spent reading comments is several orders of magnitude larger for moderators, and that is even without the time required to respond to issues. So we skim comments and apply some pretty coarse routines.
Basically the way I run it after a decade on this site (and more on older systems) is that if I have to slow down to actually read a comment, then you are already guilty of something. It could be intelligence or lie or liability or trolling or stupidity or just a good laugh. The next pass is essentially a question of if I think it adds to the site dialogue or not. And then I start looking at exactly what was said and sometimes the context.
CV’s problem (since this discussion started about him) was in the latter stages he was making the virtually every discussions he was involved in to be about him and not about much else, it was highly repetitive, and spread across posts. The same had happened in the backend previously with his senseless war with TRP. It didn’t add anything to the site, but caused a lot more work and purposeless aggravation to moderation and authors. So he progressively got the chop from author down to a ban.
That was an extreme example because of the descent from author to banned. But it is essentially the same as every other person who gets a ban. We like robust debate, which is why you see a pretty deliberate policy to try not to ban on ideological grounds. But senseless, boring and above repeated stupidity just makes work for us both directly with things like legal liability and because we have to wind up cleaning up the flamewar messes.
The basic rule about “free speech” here is to do it without substantively increasing the workload of the volunteer moderators for with valueless waffle or having to stop too much to check the comments. In short, we expect you and all other commenters to self-moderate.
If people absolutely have to have a say that is going to cause issue here, then it pays to signal that you are aware that is what you are doing to the moderators. Then consider that the net is wide and we don’t constrain your “free speech” at one of the many other sites that you can have your say on. We just constrain it where we have to do the work for you.
I reckon this discussion has gone pretty well.
It’s only drawbacks seem to be that we’re not always clear when we’re talking about the personal realm (in which I include privately-funded blogs as much as dinner guests), the legal realm, or the moral realm.
I also think we’re on pretty much the same page regarding how the law should treat freedom of speech and where the line is, but we may disagree on whether certain cases (nazis) meet that line.
I also think there might be a discussion as to whether there’s a point that one’s opinions or behaviour does in fact define them. From my perspective, an amiable and gregarious raconteur who happens to be a nazi is just a more dangerous kind of nazi, rather than just being pleasant company with alternative views to mine.
Yes, it has been a very good discussion so far, which I really appreciate, thank you.
Many arguments are based on or start off as misunderstandings, talking passed each other, and then descend from there as it were. Once you’re down the rabbit hole in a communication or relationship – pretty similar things IMO – it is very hard to find your way back and crawl out of it. If you do manage you’re covered in ‘soil’ and feel ‘dirty’, at least, I do.
You’re saying that a ‘pleasant’ Nazi still is a Nazi. This is true, to a point, because they are so many things, all in one person. There’s a difference between being a Nazi, behaving or acting like a Nazi, and crossing a legal boundary (i.e. committing a punishable offence) IMO. I guess your argument is that it is only a matter of time before they will cross such a line. This is where I beg to differ and give them the benefit of the doubt. I do agree that many, but not all, can do horrible things under certain circumstances, but this is by no means unique to Nazis; Hannah Arendt held this view too.
Nazis have an ideology of sorts, but many racists or sexists, for example, do not. That’s an important difference in how we deal with people and their views that we don’t agree with or intensely dislike and outright reject. Many simply parrot their parents or peers …
Free speech and raising awareness is the best way to be vigilant and possibly even to transcend extreme views. Once you stop/block communication evil will run its course, no matter what is its ‘name’ …
But then discussing with evil as if it’s a reasonable argument lends evil a legitimacy that it should be denied.
Nobody is perfect in their outlook, but as soon as people start saying Hitler was nice to his dog or put equally irrelevant praise upon him, they’re trying to minimise the entire holocaust. Or if they’re parading in the streets using the old slogans, they’re supporting the holocaust.
Let me be completely clear: Nazis shouldn’t be shunned, banned, mocked, and so on because they are at the top of a slippery slope and might break the law. All of those things should be done to them because spreading those opinions as a rational point of view necessitates murder. Every single time solitary nazis feel empowered to gather and express their views as if they are a legitimate part of society, people end up dying before society is forced to crack down on them again.
A pleasant nazi is a dangerous nazi because they make nazis seem pleasant, acceptable, even entertaining. They legitimise being a nazi. But as soon as one is a nazi, one isn’t a number of things, one is a nazi with a number of characteristics.
There’s no such thing as a moderate nazi. There’s just a nazi who hasn’t killed anyone yet.
To paraphrase Indiana Jones: “Nazis. I hate ’em”.
@ Lynn,
Thank you for the clarification and I will keep it in mind if/when I write such a post; I’d like to think I’m quite good at self-moderation; not so good at self-medication 😉
I think TS is a wonderful forum with shed loads of freedom and moderated as well as is humanly possible.
@ McFlock,
My apologies, but I’ve run out of time to reply; maybe tomorrow but another long day ahead.
Many thanks for the discussion.
@ McFlock.
All this talk of Nazis… John Maynard Keynes. I’m going to assume you’d have been fairly open to sitting down for a beer with him. Nice chap. Some interesting stuff to say on economics.
The same John Maynard Keynes who was director of the Eugenics Society from 1937 to 1944.
Eugenics. The widespread and popular belief that pre-dated the Nazis, that justified forced sterilization in many states in the US and an idea that the Nazis merely exploited, didn’t conceive.
Fascism – Mussolini’s Italy. Where Roosevelt turned to in order to figure out how to lay in the social provisions of the ‘New Deal’.
USSR – the idea that an elite could order a society ‘just so’ for the betterment of humankind….Not fascism?
Methinks you lack nuance. Or maybe it’s that you’d position yourself betwixt and between those supposedly extreme poles of left and right, in some civilised or “safe” space, But then what wind-blown seeds does that ground inevitably contain?
@bill
Was Keynes a nazi? No?
Was Rooseveldt a nazi? No?
You put your finger on it with the USSR: as you put it, initially designed to bring about the betterment of human kind. So, not nazis, even if it was an authoritarian dictatorship that killed millions of people.
Upon consideration, I’m not sure I’d put nazis on the continuum between left and right, let alone the extreme end.
In the case of nazis, we should all lack nuance. Even the fascists were originally better than the nazis, although they jumped on board so fuck them, too.
McFlock.
Had the term “fascism” been around in 1919, it would have been applied to the Bolsheviks.
Mussolini (just like the Bolsheviks) insisted his order was for the betterment of humankind. The difference was that he teased the monolithic Bolshevik model a tad to give more agency and legitimacy to things other than “the party” – the state.
Roosevelt wasn’t a fascist (to be a Nazi one would have had to have been German and living in Germany), but he was very accommodating of fascism and, like I say,relied on fascists to show him how to implement social programmes.
And Keynes wasn’t a Nazi either. Like I say. He was a proponent of eugenics.
If the fascists and bolsheviks were interchangable, the fascists would have been called bolsheviks because the bolsheviks came first.
So Roosevelt looked at fascist social programmes and keynes was a eugenics supporter. That makes neither of them nazis. Did roosevelt only look at fascist social programmes? Did the fascists invent the concept? I bet no. Does one have to be a nazi to be a eugenicist? Again, no. Does one even need to be a eugenicist to be a nazi? I doubt many could even spell the word.
I think that Hannah makes something sound clear and noble that is debatable and moulded. Do kiwiblog points get clearer and more visible as their denizens partake in that echo chamber?
I like your point about fuzzy and subjective human constructs.
But the things you mention and I noted can destroy an attempt at thoughtful discussion on the blog. People can’t be distracted from focussing on the various important points by mockery et al and still be able to get an overview of strengths and weaknesses of whatever they set out to consider.
Not all of us have clarity of thought and/or writing (communicating) especially when dealing with complex topics. Sometimes mockery is a bad/failed attempt at humour or sarcasm; it’s not always necessarily intended to distract. But I take your point that there are people who like to deliberately derail debate. I can ignore these but others may not be able; banning bad behaviour on TS is not the same as banning free speech as Lynn has just explained very well @ 9.44 pm.
Edit: for me clarity often comes through writing …
You have it right Karen.
Speech which incites killing, racism, bigitory, and sexism or bullying or out right lies needs moderating.
Add to the list if you like.
I do believe in free speech, but with responsibility.
Let’s us discuss not destroy.
We should tolerate it. But we don’t have to give it a platform and megaphone. Nor should we insulate it from consequences.
Agreed, but it is a paradox that cannot be solved as such, only debated over and over again.
Indeed, it is a paradox. Explained by Karl Popper here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Free societies have plenty of sanctions against toxic speech – a common example is shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre when there is no fire, slander, false advertising, criminal conspiracy and so on.
Any ideal can be subject to reductio ad absurdum and absolute liberalism that gives free reign to those who seek to destroy it is untenable.
CV sought to actively disrupt discourse with misogynistic, racist, antisemitic and racist abuse and outright lies and deliberate misinformation.
A perfectly liberal forum is not possible, and in the interests of a maximally liberal discourse, restrictions on those who seek ultimately to destroy it are reasonable and justified.
Another thread warns of the coming digital war and whether or not you believe that Russia interfered in the US presidential election, you know that trolling can be systematic and targeted.
On an aside, people talk about Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and Margaret Atwood as being the dark prophets of our age, I’m thinking that the one who really got it was William S. Burroughs with his writing about viral information, feedback and Nova Mobs.
Yes, I agree with all that. The Devil is in the detail, as they say.
The only possible way to protect freedom against those who seek to limit it is to give them as much freedom as possible, without prejudice. That’s the paradox.
There seems to be some apprehension about CV returning here. It might never happen and if it does a ‘welcoming guard’ might be poised to pounce … Regardless of whether I like the guy or not, whether I like his views or not, he’s done ‘his time’ and should be given a fair chance IMHO. I can only speak for myself and fully accept that other people don’t share my views on free speech in general or CV in particular. In any case, it’s not about winning an argument, it’s about exploring the tension between opposing views.
Incognito
But where and how is the freedom allowed, pursued? People can’t come in and take over this blog with prattle. How could we ever get to discuss anything and be able to see trends and exchange information that a few people could add to their info and make discoveries on important subjects.
To me it’s not necessarily winning an argument, it is seeing other points of view which after consideration, would need to be put aside, until a clearer picture of the situation would be seen. I myself question whether I should be spending time exploring tensions between opposing views. Ultimately I might not give a fig for someone’s view unless I know enough about their expertise and ability to sift information. It’s getting useful information and putting it all together so that a possible scenario can emerge that’s best.
But hearing others points and then asking them questions, and receiving understandable answers back, enables a hypothesis to be developed. It’s groping your way to a real possibility, rather than having sweeping, confident opinions dumped take it or leave it.
What a load of old rubbish I am talking probably anyone would say.
@ greywarshark,
Your comment made perfect sense to me, thank you, although I had to read it twice 😉
This is where I differ in opinion; it is the quality of the argument that counts for me and how it is supported by verifiable facts and reasoning. For example, you don’t know anything about my area(s) of expertise yet I am an expert. I do try to let my words do all the talking without having to rely on my known & public credentials. FYI, my credentials would be no help for what I write about anyway.
The learning is done and new insights are being attained between opposing views, not at the extreme ends; this is the nature and pursuit of debate IMO.
Incognito at 11.10 23/10
Actually what I meant about knowing the person, I meant what I can gain as to reliability and honesty from reading their comments, as much as what they actually share about their persona. I respect yours and not only because you occasionally agree with me!
There are others here that I think highly of, and I may never know just who they are or meet them. But their minds are great, and their intellect sparks and their integrity seems good, and if they have some humour and sometimes self-deprecate, I think they are all right!
Free speech always comes with consequences. Telling lies about people is slander and you can be sued for that. You can also be discredited and shunned by others and on a blog banned. It would be very unhealthy if people could say whatever they liked with no consequences. Screaming out fire in a crowded movie theatre when there is no fire should also have consequences.
I do not disagree the slightest. I was not referring to crossing lines but rather to the large grey area, the ‘dark zone’ or ‘desert of discontent’ that you have to transverse before you cross an imaginary line/boundary, a ‘point of no return’.
lprent confirms that those banned until post election have had the bans (comment blacklist) lifted.
Does that include me I wonder… should do I suppose.
EDIT: well would you look at that…
You got to 4 hours and 28 minutes. Not bad.
Next!
Nice to see the warm welcome back for CV. Judging by the level of vitriol you’re sadly missed. See you tomorrow.
I found CV intelligent and interesting – didn’t agree with everything but at least someone was thinking and contributing outside the groupthink that can take hold here. Granted I missed the controversy being discussed above by the sound of it.
A brief look at some of the gun control laws in effect at the time the Second Amendment was written and ratified.
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/22/five-types-of-gun-laws-the-founding-fathers-loved_partner/
With that context, it’s quite plausible that if the US had followed a different socio-cultural development the current interpretation of the Second Amendment would focus entirely on the starting bit ” A well-regulated militia…” and there would be no individual right to bear arms at all.
True Andre – but then John Wayne would have been out of a job.. and Roy Rogers.. and the Lone Ranger…. Then where would we get the silver bullet to solve all the world’s problems?…
/sarc
Here it is, readers of The Standard, our raison d’etre! Chris Trotter describes the driving need for us all to do what we can to support the new Government against the forces of darkness, as exemplified by Richard Prebble, here on this blog and out in the wider world – cool bananas!
“And not only Peters’ protection will be needed. Every progressive New Zealander who understands the magnitude of the fight which Peters’, Ardern’s and Shaw’s decision to pursue “real change” has made inevitable, must be prepared to come to the aid of the three parties – Labour, NZ First and the Greens – which have committed themselves to fulfilling the hopes and dreams of the 50.4 percent of the New Zealand electorate who voted for them.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/dark-transactions-winston-peters.html
Ah. Yes.
Out of the post-election turmoil, let’s hope we can build a better society and government.
Yesterday saw the despair of the WiPeds – those poor souls afflicted with Winston Peters Demonisation Syndrome; and of the JASPs – those other souls in awestruck fear of Jacinda Ardern’s Supernatural Powers.
For the majority of us Pipeds, now is the time to work really hard for the humanisation, and democratisation of politics, economics, and social policy.
Yay that!! 1000000%
Thanks for putting that up Robert G. I put it up on Ad’s post but haven’t received any acknowledgment of anything I have put up there. C’est la vie.
Your a regional councillor Robert and I have a lot of time for your enthusiastic support of all things green and I have heard you talk on your bush tucker and your Eden in the south.
The forces of darkness have been working overtime in Canterbury this weekend ,targetting a regional councillor like yourself. I may have missed it because I have been fishing but how can we stop hate crimes like this ?
Making news overseas.
New Zealand’s new prime minister calls capitalism a ‘blatant failure’
‘If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that’s a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?’
Ms Ardern said: “When you have a market economy, it all comes down to whether or not you acknowledge where the market has failed and where intervention is required. Has it failed our people in recent times? Yes.
“How can you claim you’ve been successful when you have growth roughly three per cent, but you’ve got the worst homelessness in the developed world?”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/new-zealand-new-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-capitalism-blatant-failure-a8012656.html
Capitalism a blatant failure.
On Radionz this am Colin Peacock has had two interesting speakers both giving their take on capitalism and its future moves. I’m really enthused about Paul
Mason’s ideas which provide a framework for the future that mirrors things said on this blog when looking to the future, UBI moves etc.
politics
The future of the labour force
From Labour Day, 8:40 am today
Listen duration 25′ :01″ Add to playlist
Listen http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/labourday/audio/2018618886/the-future-of-the-labour-force
Economics journalist Paul Mason says globalisation has created a whole new class of working people and the world is on the verge of a post-capitalism where work is being reinvented.
politics
Bringing capitalism back from the brink
From Labour Day, 8:10 am today
Listen http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/labourday/audio/2018618884/bringing-capitalism-back-from-the-brink
The face of British business, former UK Minister for Trade – Lord Digby Jones, explains how business and capitalism needs to be fixed to benefit everyone.
The problem being that it can’t be fixed as the whole point of capitalism is private ownership of everything. Which leaves out all those that can’t own anything because of everything being owned by a few.
Poverty is caused by capitalism and it cannot be corrected because it’s how capitalism operates.
Yep the clue is in the word “capital” + “ism” == worship of money, i.e. “the business of business is business”, building massive glittering edifices of steel and glass to honour their false gods.
As in all things, it shall pass.
As opposed to “socialism” which prioritises social outcomes, i.e. people. The taonga of Aotearoa.
“He tangata, he tangata, he tangata”
A market economy would work if everyone followed the rules. The problem is those with money do not follow the rules and cheat at the market economy every chance they can. They get a National government to break the unions that help the workers get their fair share of the profit to keep wages down artificially low below real market rate. If they are not paying a fair wage to attract local workers, they get a National government to allow them to import cheap labor from outside of the country as another way to help keep the wages artificially low. Greed is the thing that always makes a market economy fail.
And the 1% know they are challenged to show a kinder face.
Why do I feel this is an ‘Oliver Twist’ moment, as the empty bowls are presented?
Eventually empty bowls and empty bowels enforce desperate action.
greywarshark
Thanks for posting those sites of the (RNZ National) True “Labour day” programs.
I thought Sir Digby Jones was great.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/labourday/audio/2018618884/bringing-capitalism-back-from-the-brink
They must be repeated later also as some people dont wake up early as we all do.
Some dont have internet or any method other thatn radio broadcast so repeats of these true “public affairs” programs be re-presented again today on “Labour day”
The incomming new Minister of Broadcasting must take the word Steven joyce put behind RNZ (National) out of the broadcasting platform as Political parties names should not be advertised on a Public radio netwok.
Isn’t it controversial that Back Benches burnt down not once but twice I liked watching Wallies mediate on that program they put the neo libreals feet to the coals a few times and helped keep people honest I guess Key could not handle the truth getting out in to the public there is a sure trail to follow there
cleangreen
Yes I feel that National is now a tainted word.
I have just been trawling in Radionz under search – author interview. What a mine of golden ideas and experiences.
Guillotine insurance, to borrow the phrase.
Yet another reason to carefully watch and manage China’s influence in New Zealand: deeply entrenched institutional sexism.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/22/asia/china-female-leaders/index.html
Let us not forget this.
‘Newsroom Investigation: National MP trained by Chinese spies
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/13/46657/national-mp-trained-by-chinese-spies
or this
‘Revealed: China’s network of influence in New Zealand.
A major research paper into China’s soft-power campaign in New Zealand has detailed ………… extensive links between China and former New Zealand politicians and their families, and also highlights significant political donations.
University of Canterbury professor Anne-Marie Brady, the author of the research paper, said she was disturbed by her findings.
“This is about our democracy and about our sovereignty. Anybody who reads the report will find this troubling,” she told the Herald.
Brady said the influence campaign being waged in New Zealand would be of concern regardless of its source.
“It’d be the same if it was any country: it’s not about China, but it’s our country and our democracy where we value freedom of speech and association. It’s our right to choose our government.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11924169
Hard-hit families struggle under crippling debt
‘Budgeting services in Rotorua say hard-hit families are struggling under the weight of crippling debt.
People were juggling millions of dollars in debt with one agency working to help its clients reduce $12.6m in the year to June.
Rotorua Budget Advisory Service manager Pakanui Tuhura said to the year ended in June it had worked one on one with 564 clients that had a total debt of $12.6m. The majority was owed on mortgages, money to government departments, bank loans, finance company loans and other types of loans.
Its figures show about $4.6m was unsecured debt with $8m secured, while in the year ended in 2016 it had helped 764 clients deal with $19.4m in debt.
Mr Tuhura said unfortunately the clients it dealt with “have pretty much hit rock bottom”.’
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11934373
At least 20 people have died after smoking synthetic cannabis, but where is the community outrage and Government action plan?
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2017/09/killer-chemicals/
100% Ed,
I too am worried about second hand smoke damages occurred byothers recieving exposure effects from this human toxicity from “synthetic cannabis”
What do you think Labour will do to stop stupid poeple from taking drugs that might contain weed killer or fly spray or other poisons that may kill them??
I’m hoping they’ll do the sensible thing and legalise drugs and tax them and sensibly regulate them so they actually contain what’s claimed and not weedkiller or flyspray or whatever else.
+111
It’s rally the only thing that’s going to work.
And don’t forget the potential TAX revenue, in the states, the tax revenue is not to sniffed at, this revenue can be used directly to support addictions.
It might do to recall that these products were legal and that they have a high incidence of addiction from users.
The stupidity started with decision to make these products legal without concern for the consequences.
Synthetic cannabis is no longer legal, but we still have to deal with the consequences of introducing this toxic product to the public without due consideration and precaution.
You should save your vitriol for Dunne, and those who considered allowing synthetic cannabis to be preferable to the conversation about decriminalising the use of the natural product.
Why would the government, which legalised this deadly cocktail, want to bring attention to it?
According to 1 herald journalist the Nats will introduce a PMB on Kermadec sanctuary to “drive a wedge” in the coalition… not because a sanctuary is of itself a good idea or in the interests of NZ… but to get back in power sooner.
The Herald is now advising the National Party on strategy.
NZ Herald is a tool of the National party.
Not surprising in the least tracey – the strategy of poor losers who are continuing to support an ill-prepared brain-fart that Key used to big-note himself at the UN. If necessary, the coalition can use the English (Parental Leave) veto strategy while engaging in meaningful and transparent dialogue to ensure that a just, viable and legally enforceable sanctuary is established.
Right and the opposition should just sit there and do nothing, the Kermadec sanctuary was a good idea and if the Green party decide to support it then thats how MMP works
Mind you I would have thought the problems with the coalition wouldn’t have started until after they’ve become the actual government
No they should not do nothing. They should be constructive in opposition for a better NZ. A sanctuary that Nats never mentioned during an election campaign seems a strange place to start. Not that they have started anything openly yet
This, if it happens, will do a lot of good for National. It’ll embarrass Labour, it will reiterate what National were saying about NZFirst (though I think National should reach out to NZFirst personally) and will remind the population about how effective National is even when its not in power and, by default, how ineffectual the government is
Throw in the morale boost of sticking it to the government and putting the government on the back foot it can also start to signal to the Greens that maybe, in the future, the Greens don’t have to be Labours poor cousin and maybe a seat in cabinet is a possibility…
Also this is only a possibility because of what Labour was willing to do for power
So back to the game playing and fuck the good of NZ. Nats bringing on lies on steroids ay. If lying doesnt get you want you want. Double down.
Chris
The only thing the National party was effective at was doing nothing and racking up the largest debt this country has ever seen to pay for their dumfounded tax cut policy that resulted in massive deficits and took nearly a decade to correct.
So it would seem… A Dirty Nick Smith trick, concerned he has lost any legacy after 9 years of SFA. (oh there are swimmable rivers off course)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935754
(Item up on midday bulletin on RNZ just now.)
A New era… or yet another DP trick. But guess we’ll have to wait another day to find out
as “New Zealand First Party refused to say whether the Kermadec proposal was alive or dead.
It said that information would have to await the release of the party’s coalition agreement with Labour on Tuesday….”
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/342141/nz-first-refuses-to-say-if-kermadec-plans-are-afloat
https://twitter.com/thekermadecs
National is considering a member’s bill promoting the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary – and potentially driving a wedge between two parties in the new government in the process.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/342180/kermadec-member-s-bill-could-divide-new-govt
Speculation yet. But is Nick Smith being malicious, spiteful, hostile, evil-minded, baleful, bitter, evil-intentioned, poisonous, venomous, evil, malign, malignant, rancorous, vicious, vindictive, revengeful, vengeful, pernicious; cruel, fierce, nasty or malevolent ?
All of the afore mentioned JC when’describing’ Nick Smith.
But is Nick Smith being “malicious, spiteful, hostile, evil-minded, baleful, bitter, evil-intentioned, poisonous, venomous, evil, malign, malignant, rancorous, vicious, vindictive, revengeful, vengeful, pernicious; cruel, fierce, nasty or malevolent” ?
Very important series of tweets from Bronwyn Hayward (NZ Assc Prof of Politics & advocate for kids & a democratic imagination in a changing world @ Canterbury Uni)
Rather than labouriously C&P individual tweets – this to unroll and then C&P the entire thread.
https://tttthreads.com/
https://tttthreads.com/thread/922203214824472576
Cool. Thanks!
Thanks from me too! What does it do with subthreads?
I’ve had a bit of a fiddle and it looks like it ignores replies and the like.
But I did follow up on the how to video and there might be more info on the bot makers pages.
https://jerome.gangneux.net/blog/
https://twitter.com/jrmgx?lang=en
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGFDciDurID5U496UtkqRTQ/videos
correct me if i’m wrong .
but when a fulla i was docking with complained about mmp and wanted it gone ,
i said it’s the only way to control political party getting out of control as we have no upper house
In these days of people losing connection with rural areas and getting more open-minded about how people relate to each other, “fulla I was docking with” might not get understood the way you meant.
But yeah, MMP makes it more likely compromise and coalition building will be needed for government. But the presence of more than one layer of government won’t prevent elected dictatorships. The only thing that’s saving the US from one right now is the turd tornado’s utter incompetence. And they have three levels of government.
cheers ‘ but imagine if the turd had won a fpp election in a one tier system.
as for the other just adding a bit of flavour , although was a little hesitant to mention docking (removing lambs tails ) here
Imagine what will happen when townies find out their roast required an animal to die! 😉
I’ve seen it happen a few times. And been soundly told off when my niece and nephew asked “what’s for dinner” and I told them “Bambi’s mother”. But the sudden vegetarianism usually only lasts until the next bacon fry-up.
Used to bugger my back after the 3rd day of stooping down to ring those nuts.
I enjoyed those mountain oysters . but me thinks there is more to that story
aye it does ill pick up some where near 6000 lambs this season , as i’m the new boy in the Valley i just moved to it’s back down the order for me.
(wouldn’thttp://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_upload/animalwelfare/TAFS-2-Management-to-Avoid-Tail-Docking-Sheep-9-22-09.pdf change a thing mind.)
There was a bloke called Dr Scobie doing good work on tails but guess what , no funding for research is what happened to him i believe.
It was one of those tasks that convinced me that farming was all about doing automatable tasks by hand whilst sitting on the land and making enough to get get by. While looking for a good capital gain out at the end. Not my scene back in 1977 when I spent a year as a farmhand to make that decision.
All the more reason to keep any vernacular we have.
/facepalm
And upper house doesn’t stop a political party getting out of control – ever. Just look at the US.
I have to change my email because of Vodafone’s clear.net.nz shutting down. Someone replying to my email had it returned address unknown and Vodafone was giving till end of November I thought.
That’s why I still want to keep my landline. When you get into the hands of these flighty capitalist concerns, they are always trying to take over each other, or invent something that will take the others’ business or put them out of business. Half our time is spent on learning new stuff that replaces old stuff that worked okay.
I find it frustrating that big corproations push people to use new technologies in the way they want.
I still prefer landlines for phone and Internet. I can’t understand why so many people have switched to pay for use mobiles, when landline free local calling is still available. i rarely have my mobile switched on, have voicemail for my landline, but businesses especially try to contact me by mobile, and ignore my landline.
Sometimes I don’t switch my mobile on for days or even weeks.
I also prefer my email to come through my computer system. I distrust wifi and clouds and think landlines, and backups to external hard drives, are still more secure.
I am switching to spark, and have to wait til the connection is activated before I get a Spark email account.
I have requested vodafone to forward my mail to a gmail addy in case there is a period between vodafone and spark email accounts.
But, I think vodafone’s email was already not working well, which is why they have closed thee service down.
My vodafone emails to friend in the UK have not got to her for the last year.
gmail is not adequate for all my email – it’s clunky.
While I like many new technologies, I’m mostly selective about the ones I go for. I distrust the motives of big corporations when trying to push us in specific directions.
i have not have had a mobile phone now for nigh on 6 years. I don’t need it, i don’t want it, and i don’t want to pay for it. It offers me no service.
I have a landline, internet. If i don’t pick up the phone or answer messaging i don’t want to be contacted. It works a treat!
I am pondering letter pigeons tho, that would be a cool addition to my communication services.
Vodafone’s internet service drove me back to drink (briefly). It was an unfunny version of the dead parrot sketch spread over weeks. Now I’m with Spark and I’ve found the service reliability and customer relations immensely superior.
Never use Twitter, Instagram etc. Never noticed any deficit in my life for not having them. Someone once titled a book Data Smog and that seems to suit most social media – they obscure instead of reveal and they’re toxic.
I agree, gmail has an awful interface.
Likewise, I still use a landline and I’ve never had a mobile. Christopher Nolan supposedly never uses one either. If he can handle the logistics of big budget films without one, everyday life is easy without one.
I get most of my information from books because they’ve been researched, referenced, attributed, edited, redrafted and critically reviewed.
While I have a voracious appetite for information, I take Mustrum Ridcully’s example with messages – if someone comes up to you with a message, ignore them. If they go away, it wasn’t important or they could deal with it themselves.
In the end, I think that time capsules are even superior to pigeons. Someone opens one up, finds a note and it reads, “Go away, I’m dead.”
but but
i like pigeons. 🙂
I use my Gmail through Thunderbird. The only problem I have with that though is that it’s interface with Google Calendar is rather limited.
Well, sometimes anyway. I doubt a book from The Heritage Foundation is any of those things as they’re designed to lead people to the wrong conclusions.
Carolyn-nth
Recently I gave my landline number, which has an answerphone, to a business and they said don’t you have a mobile. Time wasn’t important and I couldn’t see why they dismissed the landline number.
I agree about using emails. This drive to have your whole life targeted at your cellphone, so little, so portable, so slippery, so likely to need constant topping up, I can’t understand.
It seems that people are hypnotised by tech, and conformist to the extreme in all wanting to use it. Also businesses want everything these days, your address, your email, your cellphone, and landline. Stuff them, why, are they going to sell it.
Now the tech mad are talking about not having codes for door locks, and keys are out, and the latest is no plastic cards but eye reading etc. Everything is becoming too complicated, and creates barriers rather than facilitating entry and freedom.
Because it’s cheaper than a landline while also being mobile.
It may be cheaper for those who use mobiles a lot, and feel a need to have a phone connection wherever they go.
For me, who rarely uses a mobile from one month to the next, it looks like the frequent users are being subsidised by those of us who use mobiles only very occasionally.
There may be a bit of that with landlines, but it’s more of a level playing field. And I prefer a landline connection for the Internet – so basically, my mobile is only for emergencies.
For those on a benefit WINZ requires you to have a phone. As they don’t then pay for the phone it’s only the cheapest option that works.
Pre-pay with most telcos is $20/year.
The people being subsidised the most happen to be businesses. Same as retail customers subsidise them on power as well. And the subsidy is huge. When I was at TelstraClear they were actually losing money on business customers but still making a decent profit because of the residential. Meanwhile the business customer were called VIPs.
So do I – it just doesn’t have a phone number on it. Why have a home phone when anybody who calls you is going to call on the mobile?
It is increasingly becoming the case that mobiles seldom get used for voice.
I’m a pretty typical bleeding edge user of technology, and usually shift patterns well before anyone else. I have a moderately expensive plan. It has unlimited voice. Unlimited texts. And 7.5GB of mobile data.
So my average voice this year was 20 minutes per month, and 30 txts. But I average 5.8GB of data over the last year and about 3GB the year before. If I could drop voice and txt and still have a phone number then I would do so. Easy enough to use something like signal or whatsapp.
At home I have unlimited data (mostly for The Standard) and a VOIP landline that costs $10 per month. That is only used for incoming for the elderly and the apartment door.
To be honest, I’m still amazed that we’re letting the telcos screw us over with the idea of texts and voice minutes which they charge more for. It’s just data and should be charged at the same rate as data.
We have had to change as well. I do not like the gmail format, but Norm does.
Each to their own.
Landlines when the power goes down, are great, as they work.
After switching to all broadband we had nothing during a power outage.
Did you tell Vodafone your new email address? You need to should you wish for email to be redirected to alternative email address. Voda is doing it for free. Much better than Sparks $20 per month fee if you want to keep @xtra email address when you move elsewhere.
Doesn’t take effect until the end of November. There shouldn’t be any interruptions to email before then.
I doubt that vodafone will offer the redirect service free forever.
Hi weka,
I just sent you a message. I hope you’ll have time to read it and possibly even post it.
Thanks Incognito, will be at my mail later on.
It doesn’t cost anything to have any email sent to my old Spark address forwarded to Gmail – I just used the “push” function that’s available as part of setting up a Gmail account.
Spark does provide free email with a net connection, though.
And, I don’t like any web-based email as a reception for vodafone emails indefinitely.
Ultimately, sometimes we have always had to change ph numbers, addresses, and email addresses.We let people and organisations that matter know of the changes.
GWS
Get a gmail account, it’s free and can be accessed anywhere in the world and does’t matter who the internet provider is, it will be the same for the rest of your life.
Thanks NewsFlash
Good advice. I may just have to take it and also revise other that I have received. I am conflicted. When it comes to google I use it so much, and have an email a/c with them which had become a necessity to fit in with others I work with. But I feel that google is right beside me everything I do.
And perhaps I can have my own email a/c separate from the google one connected with my volunteer work. So I was thinking of Outlook which is Spark I think. There are only two I am told. So.. I will have to get onto it next week.
I note in my false news that India is blaming their first ODI loss to the Black Caps on being bewitched by New Zealand’s female Prime Minster. 😉
Just been over at KB quite entertaining reading the nonsense, they refer to Jacindarella as the Tooth Fairy, Mr Ed and describe her as flippertigibbert, some quite nasty little people over there at KB or should we call it Hobbitsville.
I think the Hobbits in general were just little people trying to make a life. I don’t think that applies to KW and WO – they try to dissect life, and throw away all the good bits.
Sounds like Orcish mischief to me…
This could work well for everybody in NZ
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/342163/forestry-calls-for-wooden-public-buildings
Perhaps, if they did something about the price – dried gauged 96 x 46 H1.2 framing is around a third the price in Australia.
So, an industry is now calling for government subsidies to survive?
You’ll note that that industry was quite happy selling all their logs offshore for premium prices when the going was good. Now that it appears to be not so good they’re calling for government assistance.
EDIT:
And. no, I wouldn’t build a high-rise building out of wood. The fire hazard would be atrocious.
The fire hazards are similar. It’s what’s in the building that’s the fire hazard rather than the structure. Steel and concrete structures have to be fire protected so the steel doesn’t loose strength in a fire long enough for everyone to get out. It’s trivial to give a big wooden structure the same protection, and the wooden structure will stand up much better from the heat.
I’m the opposite, I wouldn’t live in a steel framed house because they melt like chocolate in a fire.
Agreed. At a school I was working at, there were 2 Gymnasia (!) together side by side. One was with big Lockwood beams from the early 70s. The other was a tidy, modern steel-frame unit. One fire started by arsonists between the two buildings burnt both badly. Afterwards the Lockwood beams stood proud, badly charred, but in original shape. The steel frames of the modern building slewed in all directions, broken, twisted, and in utter disarray.
1. Neither would I. I’d probably use foam sandwich.
2. We’re actually talking about high-rise buildings which, as you point out, have all the necessary protections built in already. I doubt if it would be trivial to build those protections into a high-rise building made out of wood due to the wood taking up so much more room.
Foam sandwich, huh? What kind of foam core you got in mind?
Every candidate foam I’m aware of either is a fantastic fuel for fires (such as polystyrene as used in panels for coolstores etc), stuffed full of really nasty flame retardants, or really really expensive.
Well, definitely wouldn’t be using polystyrene. That stuff shouldn’t be anywhere near a building.
Haven’t really looked beyond conception yet. More of a if you can build boats out of it then you can build houses out of it and get all the insulation benefits. And, if done right, be a faster build.
And the resins and fibres in it can be sourced from hemp.
Wood frames actually keep their strength for longer in a fire than steel.
And their insulating properties don’t spread the fire as fast as steel.
Steel rapidly loses strength when too hot, or cold.
Back in the 70’s the old Forest Service built a lot of bridges, with gluelam beams. Some of them were quite big, and to a very high loading for off highway logging trucks. I’d presume they are still standing. I was involved with a couple in Lake Taupo Forest, east of Turangi.
One of the advantages of the material choice was fire performance. A wooden beam will maintain strength in a fire much better than a steel or prestressed concrete one of the same cold strength. Steel looses strength rapidly when it gets hot.
Well, well TS does it again, we come up with some really useful information to give us understanding of what’s going on politically, business-wise and technically.
Thanks Graeme that adds to the general mix of info.
NZ WHISTLE-BLOWER ALERT!
23 October 2017
Thousands rally in Malta to honour slain Panama Papers journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia.
Murdered Maltese investigative journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia played a leading role in exposing the role of NZ foreign trusts in international money-laundering.
‘They won’t silence us’:
https://www.google.co.nz/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4366590
On Sunday morning, all seven national newspapers had their front pages black in Caruana Galizia’s memory.
Printed in bold letters against the black backgrounds were the words:
“The pen conquers fear.”
Just before her death, Caruana Galizia had posted on her closely followed blog, Running Commentary, that there were “crooks everywhere” in Malta.
The island nation has a reputation as a tax haven in the European Union and has attracted companies and money from outside Europe.
The journalist focused her reporting for years on investigating political corruption and scandals, and reported on Maltese mobsters and the island’s drug trafficking.
She also wrote about Maltese links to the so-called Panama Papers leaks about offshore financial havens.
_________________________________
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/national/81521/continous_updates__thousands_attend_demonstration_in_wake_of_daphne_caruana_galizias_murder
Political commentator James Debono said that on Monday, Daphne was given the death penalty by someone who thought he was omnipotent.
It was very good that the government would do everything to catch the culprits he said, but that was not enough.
“We do not want to live in a mafia state, we do not want to be the washing machine of dictators’ and criminals’ money,” he said, “we need to show the criminals who killed Daphne that Malta has functioning institutions which we trust.
In the last years, the institutions have failed us, with the Panama scandal being hidden under the carpet.”
________________________________
Panama Papers journalist killed in Malta car bomb | Radio New Zealand News
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/341712/panama-papers-journalist-killed-in-malta-car-bomb
The Maltese investigative journalist and blogger who led the investigation into the Panama Papers scandal has been killed by a car bomb.
(Includes April 2016 Radio NZ interview with Daphne Caruana Galizia)
_________________________________
So – when is former NZ Prime Minister John Key going to be investigated over the Panama Papers?
On 1 August 2017, the Chair of Transparency International Jose Ugaz stated at a meeting of over 200 people at Rutherford House, Victoria University that John Key should be investigated over the Panama Papers.
How do I know?
I was at that meeting and heard
Transparency International Chair Jose Ugaz say that John Key should be investigated over the Panama Papers, myself.
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption whistle-blower’.
Well looks like I’m going to get Labour day off checked the weather cam in Tauranga its pisisting down and I would get a wet ass .
Now we can see all the bullshit money sloshing around in our MSM environment .
Prebble well he looks like a washed up bum and he will take anyone money and jump through any hoops I bet he is loving all the new media coverage he is getting so discount any thing he has to say as payed proper-gander.
Key well letts vote with our wallets and boycott anything he is doing in New Zealand .
As he is just setting him self up to launder all the 1% money through New Zealand and this gives him the power/ money to manipulate OUR systems to benefit him and his neo liberal M8. We don’t want him imprinting his bullshit values on US.
Kermadec Isands well my knowledge on this subject stems from my fishing days and observation of our country’s situation at the minute.
Back in the late 80’s we use to see heaps of lights out sea this was a foreign fishing fleet and they were reaping a bonanza and paying minimal money to US for there bounty.
These fishing fleets were more advanced than ours and they new more about our fishery’s than we did so in my view they were ripping US off.
Now the Kermadec are about 800 klm away So if they are made a sanctuary how are we going to protect these assets . It would cost to much to have our Navy or Air force protect these assets .
So in my view the best way to protect and preserve these assets is to have a sustainable fishing system put in place for OUR fishing fleet not a Quoter system but something more sustainable like limited horsepower and technology in that fisheries. As in the trawler industry it is horsepower that ultimately catchiest fish and this horse power could be a trader able asset in this location .This is one of the system that the fishermen wanted back in the day to preserve our fisheries .
And with OUR fishing fleet out there fishing sustainability they will protect our asset as if they see on there radar a boat that is ilegally fishing there they would call our air force and then they will be able to peruse the offender identified them and proceed with prosecution . Now please don’t get pissed off about my view as this is the only way we can protect an preserve OUR Kermadec Island assets and in the prosess we will benefit sustainable an keep foreigners from raiding them you see I did listen when I was a younger. Key wanted to make it a sanctuary and get back hands from his foreign M8 So they could keep raiding our assets Key’s no conservative who has hired him for promoting golf and they were the ones pillaging our fisheries back in the day kick Key OUT Ana Tou Kai
I’d put a navy station up there and permanently keep some decent patrol ships there.
And, no, it wouldn’t cost too much. That’s a delusion caused by having the profit motive in producing military weaponry.
There’s an easier way..
https://medium.com/world-economic-forum/how-satellite-surveillance-is-hauling-in-illegal-fishers-6d8047df272b
that too. I’ve been keen on NZ having a polar orbit surveillance satellites for sometime now. And we just so happen to be in a good place to launch them.
Together with: http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/what-we-do/aircraft/orion.htm
Mahia Peninsula..
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/
and : http://globalfishingwatch.org/map/
People this is about the now this is about a simple acceptable solution to a problem that national will use to dived OUR new coalition government and steal there mana and national will put a lot of effort to stain and strain this new partnership. About cost don’t we already owe 100 Billion + so any simple cost effective solutions to our problems should be grabbed with both arms as this method will mean more resources for our needy and everyone in our new coalition government will have reached there goal . Kei te pai
It’s doable, but it comes down to money weather you single layered or multi layered surveillance system. The issue I have how to enforce it from illegal fishing, so we take a soft or hard nose approach? I know what I want, but it comes with big price tag as well.
And that’s because we’ve all been sold a lie about the basic nature of the economy. We’ve been told that we need to borrow from offshore and that is a lie.
A country/nation never needs to borrow money as it can create the money it needs and, as long as it has resources available and the taxes are done right, it’s non-inflationary.
Anyone thinking that the nasty wizards in the National party bewitched the weather to make it rain on Labour Day. Spiteful people. Sarc
Several witches there too, you know..
So the right are carrying on with the lies, and are upping the game with threats of violence.
I see the herald is back to being the poster boy for violence against working people. Now they want a coup to put the pesky people who believe in democracy in their place.
What worries me is the incitement to violence which is so casual in this piece. Yeah the bare faced lies are there, but the casual call for political violence is disturbing, and shows a shift away from democracy for exponents of neo-liberalism.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935125
We need to have the new government investigate if George Soros money is being channelled to NZ spin doctoring and media platforms, as this article shows it is possibly occurring world wide by this very sick man George Soros.
Austria bans Soros for funding the undemining of countries democratic systems..
http://yournewswire.com/youngest-leader-george-soros/
How many times have you posted this now? At least three that I can think of.
If your article paints a fair picture of Kurz, then the guy’s nuttier than the buffet at a squirrel convention. But one look at the home page of that outfit suggests it’s probably not a fair picture.
There you go again Andre,
Comment without substance.
Read the post!!!!
“We need to have the new government investigate if George Soros money is being channelled to NZ spin doctoring and media platforms,”
I am now sending the message to Government to investigate if Soros money is being used to fund anti Government action such as trolls?
Maybe you can relate to that better than I do as you often send anti labour messages thinly spread I see.
The article was a conspiracy-nut rant devoid of any substantiation. It had precisely zero useful information about Soros and his activities. But it did helpfully let us know Kurz is a 9/11 troofer among his other apparent delusions.
You are backing George Soros????????
You are a nutter, as just see the rapsheet on this crim as you search “george soros convicted for fraud”
Wake up!!!!!
http://americannews88.com/2017/04/breaking-news-george-soros-indicted-for-voter-machine-fraud-and-more/
BREAKING NEWS: George Soros Indicted For Voter Machine Fraud And More
April 26, 2017 Admin
BREAKING NEWS: George Soros Indicted For Voter Machine Fraud And More
After the state of Ohio found that voting machines in more than a dozen counties had been tampered with, they tied them directly to the George Soros Corporation. It took the Federal Election Commission less than an hour to get an indictment through the US Attorney after that. In under three hours total, George Soros was photographed sitting in a courtroom waiting to be arraigned.
Soros faces charges of election tampering, wire fraud, electronics fraud and perjury — as well as several smaller charges of inciting violence and harassment — after accounting books found in his office prove he personally paid the Berkely protestors as well as the group of liberal trolls that “goated” 26 conservative Facebook pages in 2014.
If convicted, Soros could face 30 years in prison and fines up to $40 million. He also runs the risk of having his citizenship revoked and being deported to his home country of Hungary. He was released on $10 million bail.
The prosecutor said this is just the beginning of the case against Soros and that it could go right up the rungs of the democratic party, possibly all the way to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
The investigation is ongoing, but he says there is plenty of evidence to try and convict Soros on the charges he already faces.
Jeez cleangreen, do you apply any skepticism at all to what appears on your screen?
Google soros voter machine machine fraud and a selection of nutter sites, misinformation sites, and a whole lot of debunking comes up.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=soros+voter+machine+fraud&rlz=1C1CHZL_enNZ731NZ731&ei=W0ntWYCVEIP38QWy063QBg&start=0&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=662
Google ohio soros indictment and the same happens.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ohio+soros+indictment&rlz=1C1CHZL_enNZ731NZ731&oq=ohio+soros+indictment&aqs=chrome..69i57.15639j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Horseshoe!.
https://www.snopes.com/george-soros-controls-smartmatic-voting-machines-in-16-states/
Your “circle of derp” is closer to the mark.
Thanks Joe90 hadn’t heard that term but it fits what one observes.
“do you apply any skepticism at all to what appears on your screen?”
Yes when the shaddy name George Soros comes up as some ‘propose’ him as a saint!!!!
But Soros is simply another elitist member of “The Bilderberg Group”
widely known as “a highly secretive organisation”
Quote; “Soros is a key globalist individual who is essentially a ”front man” for giving a humanitarian and progressive face to globalist agendas. [Note— His supposed speculative investments are often coordinated with the people who create the currency changes he is betting on in the first place, being planned at meetings such as secretive Bilderberg conferences.”
http://www.newsofinterest.tv/politics/book_summaries/daisnaid/daisnaid_soros.php
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/secretsoc_20century/secretsoc_20century10.htm
Who needs CV when we have cleangreen….
[the IP you are using is attached to multiple IDs which are on a permanent ban. Adding you in too. If you think this is a mistake, email Lynn and make your case. Thanks btw for bringing this to my attention with a troll comment on your first day back after a 6 month ban, it makes our job so much easier. – weka]
Oh dear.
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/10/20/facebook-verified-russian-proxy-site-pushing-fake-news-story-attacking-george-soros/218282
This idiot says be humble….
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/saturday-morning-with-jack-tame/audio/kate-hakwesby-peacock-peters-should-learn-to-be-humble/
My god – talk about the pot calling the kettle black in demanding that Peters show some humility and stop acting like a peacock!
The peacock is much closer to home, Kate. (Actually that is an insult to peacocks – sorry, real peacocks.)
Coms people….this!.
I agree, although there has been a bit more action on her Facebook account since the election but little in the last week. https://www.facebook.com/jacindaardern/
Jacinda seems to do all her own social media on Twitter and Facebook, so it is perhaps understandable that she has had little time particularly in the last week.
In terms of her age and tertiary qualifications in Communications, social media seem important to her and she uses Facebook brilliantly* – but she is unlikely to be able to maintain these by herself in future. So I am hopeful she sees it as a priority to get help with this asap as it would be a shame to waste the vast number of followers she has on both Twitter and Facebook.
* Her two little ‘at home’ videos on the evening of the election (23 Sept) and the next day after the BBQ are well managed little ‘glimpses into life in the Ardern/Gayford household’.
But Paddles Ardern-Gayford now has a new Twitter account (“(Independent cat – not affurliated with the Labour Pawty”) with over 245 tweets in just two days!
https://twitter.com/FirstCatofNZ Clarke got time to kill at present? LOL.
veutoviper
Why not tweet Jacinda and suggest having a helper with her tweets to her. I thought that twitter was supposed to be good for getting personal thoughts to the individual more directly.
LOL, I am not actually signed up to Twitter! I am strictly a ‘voyeur’ when it comes to Twitter and have no desire to join as it can be a very toxic environment.
However, it is an excellent early information system to things happening before they hit the news. A quirk of the Twitter system is that if you don’t actually belong, you can read most Twitter accounts without following that account except where the account is fully protected – and you cannot also be blocked.
I have other direct communications channels to certain Labour (and other) MPs etc so will raise maintaining Jacinda’s social media accounts and providing help with them, but suspect it will be me telling much more social media qualified people ‘how to suck eggs’ so to speak!
In the meantime Paddles the cat’s Twitter account is getting a great worldwide following and is a lot of fun.
One other thing that got my scepticism going was that piece on news hub about vandalism down south on those dairy farms for one what would some intelligent people who are pro our environment gain from doing that stupid shit well nothing but bad publicity
against there cause come on these people are not stupid.
Whom is part of that story and could not hold a strait face to the camera well he is no other than Derek Crombie chief executive of the central plains water irrigation scheme.
So I say there is a conflict of interest going on there a smear campaign against OUR green movement. Where is all the proof one Tyre with a hole drilled in it a shot of a 10.000 ltr milk tank well that’s no proof in my view. these farmers are not coming up with this shit by them selves someone else is driving this deceit I have a good idea whom it is and I say that this threat to OUR new coalition Government should be taken as a threat to OUR national security and these people be found and prosecuted to stop this propergander and a pro advising campaign like no other all around our world put heaps of effort and resorces into it Like Bill Gates whom just had a ordinary operating sustems but he used advertising win the world over to his prouduct and this will guarantee our governments success to run Tautoko OUR fledgling Coalition Government Kia Kaha
And Bill Gates has more soft power than many countrys now and other power. This advertising campaign will benefit our exporters to so lets do this We have to win the world over to our ideals to win in the long game of things 100 + years
And the day to launch this campaign is the day that Winston crowns our new Queen prime opportunity to make a lasting impression of our new positive coalition government to the World. I’m making a donation to the Labour party now .
Please take this opportunity seriously as opportunity knocks but once and this is a great opportunity cement our new coalition government into power for a decade.
Did you hear how Trump was nice to Jacaranda and New Zealand .
That’s because we have a loud voice in most of the country’s in our world a voice that can influence people to see there reality and join the cause for mother earth and equality He should be nice to everyone .Lett’s start this promotional campain for our coalition Government and show the rest of the world there reality Ka pai
EcoMaori/Kiwi
Jacinda I think. Jacaranda is a large tree with purple blossom I think.
Are we happy with Labour’s minimum wage position ($16.50 an hour from 2018)?
This minimal increase will do little to meet the party’s rhetoric (a fairer NZ) and address inequality. Thus, personally I’m not impressed.
How long will it take Labour to get the minimum wage up to the living wage?
Will they get there in their first term? And if not, will they get another innings?
I’m not – they have to do a review every year anyway, so this is maybe 25c better than National would have done.
Yes. It’s a poor effort. Especially considering the rhetoric during the campaign.
It will create some voter disillusionment.
When one is sailing a Waka one does not shift the load to fast as this could cause the Waka to sink. I.E If wages are lifted to fast this will justifies some neo libral employers to say the sky is falling on there head and sack some staff and this will help the neo libral cause and one will have to check that the cargo in not rotten before they can make promises to dish it out Kapai.
IMO, in this case, failing to move fast enough will see the ship go down too.
Moreover, as wages increase, so to does consumer demand, thus the need for employers to take on more staff.
Labour have already signalled that this is just the first step. Remember, too, that they’re also promising a move to the living wage for state sector employees, an end to the 90 Days’ Bill (no more “fire at will”, bringing in a “referee” service), honouring the equal pay recommendations of the recent working group, instituting Fair Pay Agreements for workers in exploitative industries… I’m not saying that we shouldn’t aim for a bigger shift over time, but let’s celebrate the good stuff, too!
I wasn’t undermining what they have achieved, but its far too early for celebrations when there is so much more to do.
Changes that we could use to rebuild working class power in Aotearoa/NZ
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/10/20/what-i-want-from-a-labournz-firstgreen-government/
I agree that a staggered approach is important to avoid sinking employers, but National have put minimum wage up every year since they were in office, generally 50c/hr, so IMO Labour have to put it up enough to significantly improve upon that.
When in 2018?
More scaremongering from the Herald…
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11935005
Tory fan girl Stacey Kirk is upset a politician calls her on her pro National bias.
Diddums.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98117407/stacey-kirk-what-its-like-to-be-on-the-receiving-end-of-a-winston-peters-tonguelashing
And if everyone makes a donation for this positive advertising campaign to Tautoko our new coalition Government we will have our fair and equal society influencing the rest of the world to to change to a fair and equal WORLD this is what we need to do as this is the way our world works ka pai
Seeing as Labour won’t increase core benefit rates and the Greens were unable to secure it as a win, is there any possibility of beneficiaries getting a little extra over Christmas and long weekends? Giving them more fiscal scope to get together with their family and friends.
Possibly. There’s meant to be a review, and at least the winter heating package means more money even if it’s not every week.
The heating package will be in one hand and out the other.
And the review made no mention of reviewing core benefit rates. It is more to do with how the system operates and how beneficiaries are treated.
Surely that’s a pretty big thing. There’s been a lot coming out about failure to inform people of their rights and a bullying culture in WINZ.
Holding a review is required.
Ensuring people are receiving their full entitlements, are treated fairly and with respect will help. But so too will more money in the hand.
I agree with both of those points. That said, the review will ensure people actually get paid their full entitlements which will go a long way to get more money into people’s hands. Also, while I don’t think the review encompasses the actual rates specifically, it covers:
The welfare system will be overhauled. Specific promises include ensuring access to entitlements, removing “excessive sanctions” and reviewing Working for Families “so that everyone has a standard of living and income that enables them to live in dignity”.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/the-greens-10-big-policy-gains.html
Certainly leaves some room there to improve the welfare system!
While ensuring people receive their full entitlements is important and will help some (a number are already receiving their full entitlements) we must keep in mind full entitlements have largely been insufficient since the Ruth Richardson cuts.
As for improving Working for Families, it does nothing for families who’s children are no longer young and for those that don’t have dependents.
So yes, plenty of room for more improvement.
Whose, not who’s. Who’s means either who is or who has.
Chairman, you have been trying so earnestly to appear genuinely left-wing, but here you are concern trolling again, casting gloom over policies, and urging towards policies you secretly hope will alienate the public.
I just want other, new readers to be aware of you.
Of course, I may be wrong, and I am sure you will protest…
I’m merely shining the light of reality over policy. If that casts them in a gloomy way, it’s because in reality, they are.
If you are unhappy with that, blame the ones who created it, not the ones who highlight the flaws.
I advocate my own policy suggestions that I believe are required, thus will help. Moreover, are likely to muster support.
When it comes to you speculating on my positioning, you’ve always been wrong. And as I’ve told you (and a number of others) it’s not about me. So if you want to keep banging on about me, you can do it from the sideline.
“Shining a light”?
Gloom is a matter of perspective. We’re just walking out of a dark cave of tory government, and you’re the dude looking at the sky and complaining it’s a little bit cloudy.
Most normal people are still blinking and trying to adjust to the new light level and warmth.
The give a little extra over Xmas campaign.
Sign in if you support the notion of the new Labour/NZ First Government giving beneficiaries a little extra over Christmas.
There’s been a few posts made since the give a little extra post (at 29) was made, therefore I sincerely hope it’s a case of the post not being noticed rather than an indication of the lack of support.
I noticed just now but first time I’ve looked at OM today so that’s my excuse 🙂
There’s been a “Christmas bonus” for beneficiaries in the UK forever, as far as I know it was still happening a couple of years ago despite the horrendous situation they’re in; I will check with my friend there tomorrow to see if she still gets it.
Of course one should be given here. Ethically and morally an increase for cost of living is more justified but we’re not naive enough to think that will happen. It hasn’t for 25 years, why change the habit of a generation now?
“There’s been a Christmas bonus for beneficiaries in the UK forever”
Interesting, I was unaware of that.
Unfortunately, Labour won’t commit to increasing core benefit rates, therefore a Christmas bonus would be better than nothing. And I thank you for your support.
I was surprised the Greens couldn’t even secure that (a Christmas bonus) from Labour, but at least they’re happy with their 3 MPs (outside of cabinet).
To be fair, perhaps they (the Greens) didn’t even consider it. Therefore, it could be something they could consider and help advocate for now?
Are you able to give a link to the relevant page? I agree with the idea but don’t know what I am meant to sign.
This is it. You’ve already signed in, thanks. Just gauging support for the notion at this stage.
I support your cause The Chairman. I’v just got to much going on at the moment to comment Kia ora
It would be like getting Scrooge to have a change of heart at Christmas to get some extra for the bennies. And it should be only for the under 65s.
The poor things they do need it very badly some of them and while us oldies could do with more we tend to do better and get better treatment.
Jacinda comes across as very caring, but this would certainly put her to the test. If she knocks this back as well (Labour refused to increase core benefit rates) then she would be a “Scrooge”.
To be fair, the extra payment should be across the board.
The Government would get a lot of it back in tax as it is spent throughout the economy. And businesses would get a surge in demand.
Which would help appease a number on the right, giving it support from both sides, making it less of a political risk.
If enough of us here support and join in this cause, do you think we (through our combined blogging power and this site) could influence the new Government into paying out an Xmas bonus by this Christmas?
There’s a challenge.
Thanks, eco Maori/kiwi.
Why would businesses hosting online material take a long time to take down offensive or vicious material? A. Because their income and usefulness as a medium for others to interact with is affected by clicks and if there is a controversy, they will get more of those. A deviant system that feeds on others’ dramas and distress more than on the lesser results from good, happy events and news.
This happened to someone very tech savvy and now as a way of hopefully preventing it, there is a site to go to.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/201858368/zoe-quinn-why-are-we-calling-death-threats-trolling
A very good article, thank you.
Likes there already something like ‘ethical investing’ by which people can demand their investment (e.g. pension/superannuation) not be invested in something they consider unethical (e.g. weapons industry). Similar pressure can and should be applied to advertisers who place their ads on ‘dubious’ or contentious websites. These advertisers should never be able to use the argument (excuse) that they didn’t know because they were only looking at a spreadsheet containing numbers of clicks and dollars earned, for example.
Good link GWS we need to come up with some innovative Ideas to clean that shit up I would not be a happy Grandfather if anyone does that to my grandchildren keep up the good work Zoe Quinn Ka pai
I see that the voice of the ‘Road freight Transport’ industry is now all over the media groaning about the shortage of “truck drivers”
I have heard this said by the road transport Forum Ken Shirey and his associated shills have said this, from memory at least four times this year!!!!
Perhaps Ken Shirley needs to read the incomming Government ‘policies on land transport’ as even Heather du plessis alllen said it right in the NZH yesterday that the new labour lead government is hell bent on moving a lot more freight back to rail well good on them!!!!
So then our roads are again much safer and cheaper to maintain and our CO2 emission targets will be reached with no more penalties to us all.
I say that is a win win win for us all – as we dont need more imported cowboy truck drivers that would be just cheap labour for the trucking industry sorry.
Here is the article for Ken Shirley’s information.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=1193550
NZ HERALD SAYS THIS; The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up
our highway network are numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are
obsessed with getting freight off our roads and back on the railways.
NZ Herald.
NEW ZEALAND
Heather du Plessis-Allan: Winners and losers of the new Government
22 Oct, 2017 5:00am
Jacinda Ardern will be New Zealand’s next Prime Minister but who
really won when New Zealand First decided to back Labour.
By:
Heather du Plessis Allan
Heather du Plessis-Allan is a columnist for the Herald on Sunday
Change is coming. Big change. That much Winston Peters has told us.
Exactly what that means we won’t know until the new government reveals
its coalition policy deals in the next few days. But still, we have
enough hints and clues to already declare some winners and losers.
WINNERS
Anyone with a car
The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up our highway network are
numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are obsessed with getting
freight off our roads and back on the railways.
Shirley.
Wasn’t he ACT?
Good question Ed,
I was told he was Labour once also but so was Prebble too eh, so there are gremilins inside the old Labour as we saw there.
Former Labour cabinet minister from 1984-1990. MP for Tasman, but lost to Nick Smith in 1990, then joined ACT and returned to Parliament in 1996.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Shirley
‘Obsessed’…
du Plessis is such a National tool.
Yes she is Ed but the ‘meat is sweeter closer to the bone”
As Heather’s article cuts across national ‘ideology ‘ of using road transport for everything in NZ did not feature in Du plessis allen’s article, so it is useful to us on the rail side.
Another Tory tool.
Mark Richardson
TV and radio host Mark Richardson tweeted that he is worried the new Labour Government will drive up the price of his morning latte.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11935935.
This has prompted some great responses.
Finlay Macdonald
‘Wait till he hears about the penis tax.’
Chris Mugford
‘maybe you and Mike Hoskings can carpool to save costs’
Ian Grant
‘Or move to New York and live in trump tower where you won’t have any complaints’
DaveMac
‘That’s fine, we had several years of getting our heads round stupid statements from f..kwits like you most mornings, & as for slow batting..’
Bronwyn Cross
‘Rich, entitled, white men whining about the cost of coffee get what they deserve. ‘
William Mason
‘if tht’s all you’ve gt 2 moan abt the new govt then u shud spend time helping ppl @ the city mission buttercup’
The response continues…
Finlay Macdonald
‘Wait till he hears about the penis tax.’
Rachel Stewart
Based on size, he won’t be paying much.
Finlay Macdonald
‘Each according to their ability to pay, only fair.’
Yes Mark’s a tosser lol.
Many thanks for the Big man that Tautoko me that while I was band for 9 days he comes from the same city that I have decided to build my Maunga in Rotorua you been playing good M8 and yes they are still giving me the underarm bowl .
I like the way you Tautoko OUR youth Kia kaha Big man.
National would have upped the price of his morning latte during their term in power more than anything Labour will do. Remember when National promised no tax increases and increased GST claiming it was not a tax increase. That would have rocketed the cost of his morning latte quite a bit. Labour should consider increasing PAYE a bit and lowering GST to reverse the tax swap National did. Most of those in the middle class will notice little difference and it will only really affect those on higher incomes and lower incomes by increasing lower incomes spending power and fractionally lowing those on higher incomes a bit.
The lower cost of morning lattes would surely help them out anyway.
The Union movement seemed quiet, near invisible during Campaign 17. Was that by design or devolution?
Good question Tracy,
We certainly expect the unions now show their might as National disolve into history.
Labour, imo, will not go close to evening up the imbalances generated by targetted neutering of the unions over the last 30 to 40 years.
I used to visit his blog site fairly regularly. Brian used to be the foil to Boag on RNZ’s “The Panel,” but recently has appeared to be confused as to where he stood on the political spectrum. http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz. He hasn’t, to date, posted a comment on the new left of centre government.
Most of the “left” used in the Press are disgruntled formers or 1980’s type Left.
Where, for example, are the former Green MPs invited to the panel to balance the 0.5% former ACT MPs
ACT is represented by way more than 0.5 % of the voices on the MSM
Agree