Paora Goldsmith is National’s $4 billion dollar man

Written By: - Date published: 4:17 pm, September 20th, 2020 - 116 comments
Categories: Economy, grant robertson, Judith Collins, national, paul goldsmith, same old national, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

This car crash of a campaign for National just got worse.

It appears that Paul Goldsmith, financial spokesperson for the party that prides itself on its ability with finances, has made a rather large miscalculation.

When creating National’s budget he anticipated that stopping contributions to the Cullen fund would “save” the Government $19 billion dollars.  I put “save” in parentheses because it will actually cost the Government and the country long term but that is a topic for a different day.

But the actual figure was $15 billion, so National had banked on $4 billion in savings that it was not going to get.

From Jason Walls at the Herald:

This morning, Robertson accused National of not properly costing its policies.

The error is in regards to the savings National would make by cancelling its contributions to the NZ Super Fund.

National’s economic plan said scrapping these contributions would save $19.1 billion – but Robertson said Treasury’s estimates show the Government would have been contributing $15 billion over that time.

“National has used the wrong numbers,” Robertson said.

And this is not a Steven Joyce inability to understand the figures gap.  This is an actual gap.  Even Goldsmith admits this.  Again from the Herald:

National’s finance spokesman Paul Goldsmith has copped the mistake on the chin, saying it was “irritating” but did not mean the whole plan was flawed.

…

Speaking to media before National’s official campaign launch, Goldsmith apologised for the error, calling it “irritating”.

“This is an irritating mistake, we missed it and our external checker missed it as well – that’s a mistake.”

He said he had apologised to leader Judith Collins.

National’s response is jaw dropping in its hyprocrisy.  Goldsmith has said National will just borrow more money instead.  Fancy that.  You have $4 billion less in savings than you hoped and all you have to do is borrow $4 billion more.

But wait there is more.  Not realising that this was a good time to shut up Paora then tried to blame Labour for slipping in changes to the super fund and not telling anyone.  The problem with this is that the contributions are calculated according to a legislative formula.  Recently the stock market and the fund have been doing well.  To add to Paora’s difficulties with numeracy and things to do with finances we can now add an inability to understand how the legislation behind the fund works.

This is a disaster.  Today is the day of National’s campaign launch.  Guess what everyone will be talking about instead.

116 comments on “Paora Goldsmith is National’s $4 billion dollar man ”

  • Comments are now closed

  2. Robert Guyton 2
    20 September 2020 at 4:35 pm

    Aue Paora! Te mamae!

    • Chris 2.1
      21 September 2020 at 10:30 am

      This won't hurt them. The majority of voters aren't going to understand let alone care.

      • Tricledrown 2.1.1
        21 September 2020 at 8:15 pm

        Yeah right Chris it just adds to the rest of Nationals disaters and its downward spiral.

        Homeless man,Privacy breach,Muellar Bridges,open the economy by July.Tax cuts for the top 20% nothing for the peasants.Whats next it seems just when National get some stability they shoot themselves in the foot ,a very weak ununified team lead by a whining whinger bully Brownlee and bully Collins.

        The Paunch and Judy show rolls on.

  3. rod 3
    20 September 2020 at 4:43 pm

    Just imagine this [deleted unnecessary insult] running the finances for New Zealand. He should resign and go back to school.

  4. observer 4
    20 September 2020 at 4:50 pm

    It's the cycle of stupidity that continues to amaze. Not the original error, but the pattern of behaviour that always follows.

    1. Make mistake. 2. Apologise. OK. But then …

    3. Double down. Talk about it some more. Keep it in the headlines.

    At the stand-up Collins responded by saying Ardern should apologise – for something or other. So that will be the clip on the 6 pm news tonight. Watch.

    They have done this every time, with all the "gaffes", Muller to Woodhouse to Brownlee to Merv. It's like watching a child pout, and refuse to learn.

    • Wensleydale 4.1
      20 September 2020 at 5:16 pm

      I guess they feel it's better to be perceived as incompetent rather than weak. And now they're being perceived as both.

      Just as well they've got a… 'strong team'. I'd be concerned otherwise.

  5. Red 5
    20 September 2020 at 4:50 pm

    About half of what lock down should not have costs us With Jacinda being economically illiterate ( a BA in comm, spare me), Roberson ( MA political science , horror) not far behind, and not a real job between them coupled with the amount of borrowing and money printing going on 4 billion is chump change. What National and labour both need to be careful of is that they don’t debase our currency completely, history tells a sorry story of countries who try to print / borrow their way out of trouble for that mythical day when all will be sweet. I hope both are really working in the long run interest of this country, not for the sake of power and self interest. To date I am not sure either way. To me we no longer have the luxury of blue vs red and tribal bs, ie our party can’t do wrong, both need to be scrutinised / critique to the nth degree now and going forward

    • KJT 5.1
      20 September 2020 at 4:54 pm

      New Zealand history. Of the first Labour Government, shows that "printing" your way out of a recession works well. Much better than any of the alternatives. Even National knows that. It is just they prefer to give windfall profits to speculators and bankers.

      Funding tax cuts for the wealthy and Austerity for everyone else, has been proven many times not to work.

    • observer 5.2
      20 September 2020 at 4:57 pm

      If Jacinda Ardern or Grant Robertson described $4 billion as "chump change" the response would be an eruption.

      But they didn't.

    • Robert Guyton 5.3
      20 September 2020 at 4:57 pm

      Goldsmith's $4 billion is "chump change", says Red.

      Well, the first word's right.

      • Red 5.3.1
        20 September 2020 at 6:06 pm

        Robert, Observer a bit of nuance please, my point the way both parties are throwing money around like confetti the political point scoring is fun but pretty much irrelevant

        • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.1
          20 September 2020 at 6:38 pm

          Your "nuanced" view is boring, Red. Today's fun news was Goldsmith's doozy of a mistake. Coming from a party that crows about its economic mastery makes the mistake all the funnier. Please keep to the issue of the moment and stop trying to spoil our merriment!

        • Hanswurst 5.3.1.2
          20 September 2020 at 7:46 pm

          Blasting any government initiative as a waste of money, and jeering at any degree not in economics, is not nuance.

          • Wensleydale 5.3.1.2.1
            21 September 2020 at 2:15 am

            In Red's world, you're persona non grata unless you're a bean counter of some description. "We must meticulously count the beans so that we can more effectively allocate the beans to those more deserving members of society… the people who count beans!" Who needs irrelevant pish like 'communication'? I mean, it's only one of the fundamental building blocks of any cohesive and functioning society. Also, Grant Robertson, a politician, has a degree in political science. How outrageously inappropriate. He probably doesn't even run the country "like a business", which is an appallingly negligent attitude to have in the midst of a global pandemic. Caring about each other?! Using tax-payer money for the benefit of actual tax-payers?! Politicians who exhibit empathy?! What rot! We need business people who know business stuff! You're never going to get anywhere in life unless you treat absolutely everything as an opportunity to trouser bucket-loads of cash.

            This may or may not be sarcasm.

            • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.2.1.1
              21 September 2020 at 11:03 am

              "This may or may not be sarcasm."

              We may never know, unless we dive deep into a "you said", "I said" quibble-fest where misunderstanding, innuendo, ill-intent and blunt stupidity are the tools of the trade.

              Just sayin'

    • Incognito 5.4
      20 September 2020 at 5:34 pm

      It appears you know how much the lockdown(s) should have cost us so this forum is all yours: take it away!

      I think it might be better dealing with one thing at a time and I will stop delving further into your comment.

      • Red 5.4.1
        20 September 2020 at 5:55 pm

        Au had a drop of 7pc GDP vs Nz 12 by keeping certain industries like construction going and barring the left wing nightmare that is Victoria are achieving good if not better health outcomes than Nz. 5 pc over 2 quarters of GDP is 2.5 annualised or about is 6.5b on Nz 250b GDP

        • Incognito 5.4.1.1
          20 September 2020 at 6:37 pm

          That’s only half an answer, at best, but thank you for giving it a go although it is impossible for me to make much sense of it; maybe I’m just too economically illiterate to follow your convoluted reasoning. You can look at the cost of lockdown in two ways: 1) how much has and does the Government spend to keep the economy afloat during the pandemic storm; 2) how much is it affecting our present and future projected earnings as a country and for how long. A single snapshot in time is not giving us the complete picture. Our international tourism is going to be suffering for a while, obviously.

          On the other note, I had no idea that AU barring Victoria is achieving good if not better health outcomes than NZ but your cherry-picking suggests that you will find a way to spin it; just leave out any data that don’t fit or suit your narrative.

          • Red 5.4.1.1.1
            20 September 2020 at 9:57 pm

            Agree we will only know true comparative cost and best response across nations over time But to the same point our government arguing as such now is also far to early

            I will simplify above for you, our GDP is approx 250b annually , at 5pc delta on lost GDP between us and Au in regard to our respective lock downs, that’s 12.5b lost income annually or 6.25b Nz possibly paid for its overly rigid lock down compared to Au if we consider GDP impact is only for 2 quarters

            Hence what’s is 4b budget error and 130b in planned debt amongst friends re the overreaction to this error

            That’s is my point, With respect maybe you need to deal with your unconscious bias to every comment I make incognito

            [Unscrambled your e-mail address for you]

            • Incognito 5.4.1.1.1.1
              20 September 2020 at 11:06 pm

              FYI, I have a definite conscious bias towards you as a Moderator because you have form and I’ve come close to moderating you.

              At the start of this thread, by you, your first words were:

              About half of what lock down should not have costs us …

              Such an assertion invites scrutiny as any comment on this site does because that’s what the site is for: robust debate.

              Our GDP appears to be $308 billion but maybe you were working in Ozzie dollars?

              https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/gross-domestic-product-gdp

              Anyway, you still haven’t answered the question AFAIK and seem to be obsessed with comparing NZ to AU (sans VIC, of course).

              I read the following blog and thought it made more sense than all your comments so far; if you cannot clearly articulate your argument(s) then you cannot have a decent debate.

              Notes About The 2020 Second Quarter GDP Figure

        • SPC 5.4.1.2
          20 September 2020 at 7:17 pm

          Oz never got the bounce back by getting to Level 1 and still has not.

          Most of Enzed will be back at Level 1 next week – name any state in Oz at Level 1.

          • aj 5.4.1.2.1
            20 September 2020 at 10:41 pm

            barring the left wing nightmare that is Victoria

            And ignoring Victoria and it’s large contribution to AU gpd is just spin, betraying your own bias. Another 3-6 months and it's going to be quite clear that the best response is the health response

            • Red 5.4.1.2.1.1
              20 September 2020 at 10:50 pm

              As Au is a federation it is not unreasonable to look at au states in isolation. Au ability to apply total federal controls to the pandemic at many levels differs a lot from nz

              Heath and economic response are 2 sides of the same coin, it may be shown that nz overly focussed on one side to its detriment over the long term, I hope not but to claim victory now is no more valid that claiming failure

    • Draco T Bastard 5.5
      20 September 2020 at 6:42 pm

      with the amount of borrowing and money printing going on 4 billion is chump change. What National and labour both need to be careful of is that they don’t debase our currency completely, history tells a sorry story of countries who try to print / borrow their way out of trouble for that mythical day when all will be sweet.

      If creating money was going to do that then every single currency would be worthless because the private banks are creating hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars worth of money every year. As currencies aren't collapsing then we have to assume that the over abundance of money isn't really a problem.

      Or maybe the issue is that there is a problem as house prices continue to soar but as it only affects poor people it doesn't bother the politicians or economists.

      • Red 5.5.1
        20 September 2020 at 10:10 pm

        Not necessary disagreeing with you Draco, but nz as a small trading nation is highly more vulnerable. We found this out in 1984, that ended muldoonism ( think big, wage control, agriculture minimum payment, government fingers in every part of the economy, regulated monopolies etc ) and led to Rogernomics, with our foreign reserves depleted, Government debt inflation, and interest rate, strike activity sky high We where basically rooted and thank god for Douglas, do we have a Douglas now in National or Labour I fear not

        • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.1
          21 September 2020 at 12:04 am

          Muldoon wasn't creating money – he was borrowing it from offshore in US$. Rogernomics was not the solution although a trade-weighted exchange rate was – and then have the government create the money that it needed.

          The throw out the farm subsidies as Douglass did but massively increase R&D spending to develop the economy which Douglass didn't do. Instead he threw NZ's economy on the scrap heap of the free-market not understanding that there's no such thing as a free-market. A market is defined by the rules that it operates under.

          We pretty much have to do the same thing today and that means getting out from under the FTAs and WTO that don't actually work. Set our trade to be with anybody who has the same rules and enforces them effectively.

          That, unfortunately, isn't going to happen as the politicians and the rich still like the failed paradigm that brought about the Great Depression and the GFC.

          • Red 5.5.1.1.1
            21 September 2020 at 9:23 am

            Agree on printing money, but my point on debt and government taking over the economy, picking winners, over regulation, taxing our way out of this funk is also not the way Nor do I agree with your strategy of fortress Nz, as a small economy we don’t have that luxury This recovery needs to be market and private sector led

            • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.1.1.1
              21 September 2020 at 11:16 am

              Government is better at picking winners than the private sector – especially in directing research.

              Much of what the private sector does now the government used to do as a government service and they were better at it, it cost us less and it got out to more people. Telecommunications comes to mind. Essentially, we're talking natural monopolies.

              The government doesn't tax us for revenue. That's the lesson around the government creating money. The government uses taxes to control inflation, guide some behaviours (think high taxes on smoking and petrol and low taxes on business) and limit income (Yes, high tax rates on income were, as a matter of fact, there to limit incomes). Unfortunately, the government and speculators have come to see some inflation as good – house and share price rises come to mind despite the fact that they achieve nothing worthwhile.

              I didn't say anything about fortress NZ. Even me saying that the borders need to close due to the pandemic is only precautionary and not permanent.

              We may be a small nation but our productivity is high enough that we could produce everything that we need while maintaining a high level of R&D.

              The capitalist free-market has failed us – just as it did in the 19th century and the 20th century. Just as its always failed. Time to do something different.

              • Red …
                21 September 2020 at 11:38 am

                Show me a planned economy that worked in practice, even more difficult now as the world is much more complex Are you saying Jacinda and Grant plus the public service can plan the economy and the efficient allocation of capital on a spread sheet over the collective needs and wants of billions of individual Global consumers. If so I salute your optimism Please note I am not arguing for no government involvement where required but limited where it can add value

                • Stuart Munro …
                  21 September 2020 at 1:09 pm

                  Show me a planned economy that worked in practice,

                  Pretty much any of the wartime economies will do. There are no shortage of unplanned economies that failed either.

                  • Red …
                    21 September 2020 at 3:28 pm

                    And what happens when the war ends when people get sick of austerity and rations that one footing and focus a war economy generates

                    I do note a familiar thread on many comments that a short term government response to a crisis some how justifies socialism long term, very strange logic

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  21 September 2020 at 1:55 pm

                  Last time I applied for a bank loan they asked for a business plan. The reason was because having a plan is better than not having one.

                  And all unplanned economies have failed. Just look at the Great Depression, the GFC and all the recessions in between and before and after.

                  Also, Labour aren’t planning for the entire world – just NZ.

    • Kiwijoker 5.6
      21 September 2020 at 7:01 am

      Hey Red, can you remind us of Bill English and Paul Goldsmiths qualifications and experience ?

      • Red 5.6.1
        21 September 2020 at 9:29 am

        English can stand on his merits, albeit should have moved quicker on strategic infrastructure and overhauling our welfare system Goldsmith, I agree, untested As I have mentioned I worry about the quality of representation in both labour and National

        • woodart 5.6.1.1
          21 September 2020 at 12:45 pm

          english can stand on his merits… ah yes, totally phucked solid energy by demanding they borrow and invest in untested tech, so as to pay a dividend to make englishs books look less terrible. cost us solid energy . success? nah!

          • Red 5.6.1.1.1
            21 September 2020 at 3:22 pm

            He was ahead his time with green initiatives Could have just shut it down like the much cleaner gas sector in the Naki I guess

            • Stuart Munro 5.6.1.1.1.1
              21 September 2020 at 4:05 pm

              Nope.

              Wrecking a significant crown property by epic incompetence doesn't get counted as Green. Green would have required that he thought ahead a bit:

              the highest function of ecology is the understanding of consequences. – Liet Kynes

              If Bill had had a clue what he was doing Solid Energy would still exist. His way of dealing with consequences was shooting through to Oz.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 5.6.1.1.1.2
              21 September 2020 at 4:23 pm

              Would brandishing a placard reading "THE MAD COW SHOULDN'T HAVE SIGNED" during the 2003 protests against a 'Fart Tax' be an example of how (now Sir) Bill English “was ahead of his time with green initiatives" – thank God his contribution to NZ politics is over.

              https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0309/S00040/images-farmers-fart-tax-protest-at-parliament.htm

    • ken 5.7
      21 September 2020 at 2:39 pm

      Hi Red,

      Any chance you could talk us through Stephen Joyce's degrees that qualified him to be Minister of Finance for National?

      • Red 5.7.1
        21 September 2020 at 3:20 pm

        Gladly Ken , no scholar I agree but a shit load more Experience and success in the private sector and business than any one in the current labour cabinet, let alone just Jacinda and Robbo Sadly he is no longer still in parliament. I would be a lot more hopeful of our future under a Key Joyce and English Government, less so Clark and Cullen but more so than current bunch As I have indicated we are very poorly served with what’s on offer on both sides of the house at the moment

        hope this helps

        • greywarshark 5.7.1.1
          21 September 2020 at 4:53 pm

          Red

          Are you a scholar? In what? Why would your opinion about politicians suitability to be in Parliament, to represent the rest of us to the best of their ability, count? Whose ability will be sufficient to get us through trying times? What do you reckon?

          • Red 5.7.1.1.1
            21 September 2020 at 6:17 pm

            Have a number of masters degree, started a PhD but not cut out for it, so no not a scholar, They say parliament should be a representation of the people, sort of agree but it does really dumb down our representation and I suggest it no longer attracts our best and finest, it’s a career for most and best gig they would ever get . Plato republic on the ruling elite may have some merit. albeit not sure the county run by ex Vic philosophy students would be much of a step up 😊

        • ken 5.7.1.2
          21 September 2020 at 4:55 pm

          It helps me to see where you are coming from.

          Joyce's 11.4 billion dollar "error" is nearly three times as large as Goldsmith's 4 billion dollar error, so your glasses are very rose coloured indeed.

          I guess it's easy to just throw around random figures and hope to slip one or two past the goalie, if you're never actually going to be in a position to back them up with the goods.

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    20 September 2020 at 5:00 pm

    Labour should apologise to the country for Minister of Finance Goldsmith's amateurish mistake!

    …hang on…

    • Red 6.1
      20 September 2020 at 6:00 pm

      No they shouldn’t, why should they, National are the opposition

      Now an apology by labour to the Green by hanging Janes Shaw out to dry, their mates would be more appropriate, especially with the greens now facing extinction.

    • Stuart Munro 6.2
      21 September 2020 at 8:40 pm

      Damned right they should:

      "This kind of egregious error reflects badly on all of parliament – the public must be able to expect better, to have confidence in those who pretend to economic leadership."

      (delivered by Grant or Winston in the more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger voice)

  7. Ad 7
    20 September 2020 at 5:12 pm

    He ain't no English.

    English had better questioning of Treasury officials to be caught out like this.

  8. roy cartland 8
    20 September 2020 at 5:22 pm

    Egads, it's almost like they're doing it on purpose. Could it be? The Trump/Boris method:

    "We're stupid, defiant and arrogant, now hurry up and give us your votes, losers!"

  9. Anne 9
    20 September 2020 at 5:43 pm

    Can't stop laughing.

    • Anne 9.1
      20 September 2020 at 5:56 pm

      “Speaking after the party’s campaign launch in Lower Hutt, party leader Judith Collins shrugged off the “little error”, describing it as “entirely inconsequential”.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/426512/national-party-admits-4-billion-hole-in-their-promised-spending

      Inconsequential? Sheesh.

      • Red 9.1.1
        20 September 2020 at 6:10 pm

        It actually is in regard to the Total debt both parties propose to raise and the debut repayment track

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.2
        20 September 2020 at 7:08 pm

        New Zealand government's yearly budget is around 110 billion dollars

        That $4 billion is actually over ten years or, approximately, 400 million per year

        Or, around 0.004% of the budget.

        It's a mistake and a fairly major one but, in some respects, it's only a rounding error.

      • mac1 9.1.3
        20 September 2020 at 7:28 pm

        When National found an error in Labour's administration, it was always "a shambles", a 'crisis", a 'catastrophe".

        When they get a $4,000,000,000 error- that's nine zeroes!- then it's 'irritating", a 'little error', and 'inconsequential".

        That is why National is not to be trusted. That is why they won't be trusted come October 19 2020.

        They have become themselves irritating and inconsequential.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    20 September 2020 at 6:24 pm

    Not realising that this was a good time to shut up Paora then tried to blame Labour for slipping in changes to the super fund and not telling anyone.

    To add to Paora’s difficulties with numeracy and things to do with finances we can now add an inability to understand how the legislation behind the fund works.

    No, that's a National MP trying very hard not to personal responsibility for his stuff-up.

    Its truly amazing that, in the Party for Personal Responsibility, there seem to be very few who will actually take any when they stuff-up. They always, always, always try to blame someone else – Labour if they can they think that they can get away with it (which they usually can because the MSM never calls them on their BS).

  11. Stuart Munro 11
    20 September 2020 at 6:31 pm

    I think you have to give Goldsmith some credit actually – Key, English, or Joyce would've lied about this until the cows came home. The 'decade of deficits' bullshit was typical of them, and Joyce went full Trumpian denial about the fiscal hole.

    He made a mistake – happens all the time. But admitting is actually rather rare. Of course we don't want him anywhere near the levers of power – he's a bit to the Right of Attila the Hun and there's no suggestion he has a ghost of a clue of what he ought to be doing. But he's more honest than nine out of ten Gnats. That doesn't make him fit to lead – but it does make him fitter to serve NZ citizens than them. We should be getting our money back from most of his colleagues.

    • observer 11.1
      20 September 2020 at 6:42 pm

      As I mentioned upthread, the political shambles was not so much the original error, but Collins compounding it.

      Today's timeline from the SpinOff is a good guide here: Goldsmith fessed up, and stopped digging, and then Collins dug a lot more. This is about judgement, which is a vital quality for any leader. Hers is terrible.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-09-2020/the-launch-that-fell-down-a-four-billion-dollar-hole/

      Collins gives 9 answers, none good.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2
      20 September 2020 at 7:09 pm

      He admitted his error and then blamed Labour for it.

      That's not what I'd call taking responsibility.

      • Stuart Munro 11.2.1
        20 September 2020 at 8:42 pm

        Yes, I think it's pretty clear it was weakness. But I'll take a weak truthful Gnat over the usual unrepentant liars every time.

        Goldsmith is infinitely better that Joyce, English, Key et al. Still rubbish of course – but a much better class of rubbish. Not redeemable, but he might just be recyclable.

  12. SPC 12
    20 September 2020 at 7:24 pm

    I just want to know how many times National is going to raid the Pandemic Reserve Fund – first for roads and now for tax cuts. And then with a straight face they are being prudent.

    And it's one thing for some firm to print the wrong document, it's entirely another for someone who cannot tell the two apart to be a candidate for Finance Minister.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1
      21 September 2020 at 12:29 am

      I just want to know how many times National is going to raid the Pandemic Reserve Fund

      As many time as they can get away with to line the pockets of of their investors funders.

  13. Peter 13
    20 September 2020 at 7:48 pm

    Is this the TRUST US WITH THE ECONOMY party? smiley

  14. barry 14
    20 September 2020 at 7:49 pm

    Innumeracy = National

  15. Mad Plumber 15
    20 September 2020 at 8:09 pm

    Claire Trevett, National party campaign launch hit by Grant Robinson torpedo, say's it all.

  16. Fireblade 16
    20 September 2020 at 8:26 pm

    Newshub's 6 p.m. report on the National Party shambles.

    https://www.twitter.com/NewshubNZ/status/1307566071294160897

  17. Byd0nz 17
    20 September 2020 at 10:37 pm

    Not to mention how they are robbing the superanuation fund that they have not funded for years, that should be a far bigger point to expose than it has been. In a way it’s worse than the four billion error, coz it is no error that they don’t contirbute to the Cullen fund.

    Not everyone gets private or parliamentary pensions when they retire, so in fact the Nats are bludging off the poor by accepting their parliamentary pension.

    • SPC 17.1
      21 September 2020 at 7:30 am

      National claim they will have a lower debt to GDP in the end, yet doing so by not contributing into the NZSF means they are doing so in a way that places greater stress on the government budgets of the future.

  18. Michael 18
    20 September 2020 at 11:31 pm

    A sweet moment for Grant Robertson, who wielded the knife with finesse. I believe the Nats would make much bigger cuts in public spending than they're letting on. Enough to make the Mother of All Budgets look benign. Reckon Labour should hammer that line between now and 17 Oct. But National's credibility as an alternative economic manager is completely fucked now.

  19. mac1 19
    21 September 2020 at 8:33 am

    Collins has just spent 5 minutes on RNZ being questioned on the $4,000,000,000- that still 'inconsequential figure’, not much more than a 'rounding off'.

    Poor dear ended by accusing the RNZ journalist of making a 'perjorative' statement.

    So, in terms of the campaign poster of National, what do we have?

    'Strong team'. Another faulty, false-figuring financial fool.

    'More jobs'. More for aspiring Labour politicians in Parliament; more required for rejected National MPs seeking work after October 19.

    'Better economy'. The 'better' has become 'But, ah…' as in "But, ah… ooh, got that wrong. Look. Got it right now. Their figures were hard to read. And I only had two days. And my checker didn't check right. And it's only a little error. And they make them, too. Next?"

    Next, indeed!

    • Pat 19.1
      21 September 2020 at 8:44 am

      And its all Treasury's fault

    • tc 19.2
      21 September 2020 at 2:17 pm

      Good to see national eliminating any doubt as to their numerical illiteracy and we all get to see JC get snippy again. Priceless and what a shocker from ACTing financier Pauley.

      • woodart 19.2.1
        21 September 2020 at 2:42 pm

        to be fair to the natz, goldsmiths phuckup was only a 33% the size of joyces hole. so does that make goldie 3 times as good as joyce, or if we let the natz go on the same curve of uselessness, how many elections before they finally get it right?I tried doing the math, but my crayon broke…

  20. karol121 20
    21 September 2020 at 3:16 pm

    Why get your tits in a tangle over this? Is this anything?

    I know much about Paora, Jerremiah and other Maori name references.

    Coincidentally, Orakei, Auckland, which has a street named after a chief named Paora was where I gained much of my teenage education about large scale enterprise and large scale manipulation in Aotearoa.

    I was going to buy an incest factory around that neck of the woods at one stage, until the whole deal blew up over cultural bickering, infighting and profit arguments.

    I have studied Maori enterprises very well also, as many have. Few Maori in the know are, poor.

    It's only money and government borrowing. Don't get into a lather over it.

    Most in core business read the posts and responses and probably have a great chuckle.

    I know that you are considered by some of them to be carrying on like overly worried, overly fed, penny pinching chooks.

    Look at the United States; US25 to US30 trillion in debt, and they're still thriving and carrying on, business as usual.

    It's not like many deliberating over whether they could afford $4000 for two crowns to cover two holes in two molars, after the recent fillings in them from six months ago had fallen out.

    This is simply the system telling most of you that as far as they are concerned you are fricken sheep, and that it really does not matter how you feel as they will do whatever they want within the smokey grey confines of the law, and that if a law doesn’t exist to cover any contingency, they will invent one.

    Fricken WAKE UP will you? And take a look at the BIGGER PICTURE.

    • Patricia Bremner 20.1
      21 September 2020 at 4:52 pm

      No, you explain "incest factory".

      • karol121 20.1.1
        23 September 2020 at 3:27 pm

        OK. Don't then Patricia Bremner.

        It's always an individuals right and choice as to whether they wish to wake up or not, and it always should be.

        Anyways. People could be worse off in NZ. They could be on a farm, in a zoo or part of a circus WITHOUT food, beverage and a roof over their cages and WITHOUT pretty SUV's and people carriers to travel to and from their critical social and entertainment commitments. So this is no slur at anybody whatsoever.

        The point I make is that as a member of any one of the aforementioned groups (myself included) there may be many commentators who appear to believe that they are bush economists and there are many who actually believe that what they pay in taxes puts them in the black in so far as paying their way.

        This is an erroneous presumption. Few New Zealanders ever actually pay their way in this regard when as it pertains to tax revenues provided to the central pool to be doled out, left, right and centre. Miscalculation of a few billion here and there, either in relation to a projected cost or an actual cost really is just a drop in the bucket.

        I don't state this because I am a Paul Goldsmith supporter or even an Alan (or for that matter a Jennifer) Gibbs supporter. I simply state it because it is what it is.

        Most pay their way by actually engaging in construction, logistics, transport, farming, health, education and a myriad of other industries where there is visible evidence of physical and tangible results for effort, not just freaking words.

        On incest factory, to elaborate. It was a play on the word; incense. A product manufactured so as to produce a fragrant result, such as waking up and smelling the roses, or used in an attempt to hide a nasty smell.

        The relevance of incest: Nepotism and cronyism, comfortable private arrangements and friendly societies of the type not commonly considered falling under the legitimate description of a recognizable society. And whereby they almost treat each other as family members in relation to closed advantage to the exclusion of many others who spend a lot of time (it seems) on social media and elsewhere believing that their criticism or support of any one particular policy or public figure will change the economy and/or change whether or not there is a surplus or a deficit at government level, or should we say, at the "People's Money" level to satisfy those who believe that it really is their money.

        In conclusion, the preceding paragraph is not to convey whether or not I have any issue with such cronyism personally, as I hardly give a stuff any longer.

        It is merely to convey reality to those caring to read what I am putting to them.

        Whether or not they agree or disagree with my belief, matters not. At least I have conveyed it.

  21. Cinny 21
    21 September 2020 at 3:52 pm

    Let me get this straight, paul goldsmith, national party finance spokesperson, has a MA in History and is an author.

    Would it be correct to say the only financial training he has had is to write a book on the history of taxes?

    • mac1 21.1
      21 September 2020 at 6:33 pm

      Paul Goldsmith, writer of hagiography. Back in 2005, six years before entering Parliamant, it seems he wrote a biography of Brash, but said then it was not commissioned by the National Party.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Goldsmith_(politician)

      Wikipedia says differently.

      Hagiography. Brash said of his biography, written by Paul Goldsmith M.A. that he wouldn't change a word of it………..

    • Jester 21.2
      21 September 2020 at 7:06 pm

      Don't forget Grant Robertson doesn't have any financial training either (I think his father was an accountant), but he seems to be doing ok.

      • Peterfailed UE twice 21.2.1
        21 September 2020 at 8:18 pm

        It's funny when the ex-woodwork teacher who twice failed UE throws his intellect around and dismisses the capacity of those like Robertson.

      • Stuart Munro 21.2.2
        21 September 2020 at 8:42 pm

        I expect Michael Cullen has taught him a thing or two.

      • Cinny 21.2.3
        22 September 2020 at 4:08 pm

        Indeed, but in the current climate I really don't think it's a good idea to hand the countries finances over to a newbie.

    • karol121 21.3
      24 September 2020 at 4:59 pm

      Correct, in part.

      More at writing convenient histories on a handful of bush economists and the inventor of the electric fence concept, I believe.

  22. peter sim 22
    21 September 2020 at 9:01 pm
    • Hey, c'm,on everybody, Red is not a person but a pr robot.

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