Written By: - Date published: 6:02 pm, November 22nd, 2007 - 175 comments
Categories: activism, dpf, election funding -
Tags: activism, dpf, election funding
It’s a bit late, but a reader who was at yesterday’s anti-EFB march has mailed us through some pics from the rally. As David Farrar has noted, the protest march was joined by a small group of activists in John Key and Mr Burns masks chanting things like “What is it that we support? John Key’s election rort!”, “Elections, money, power, cash – Bring back Don Brash!” and my favourite, “2, 4, 6, 11 – We support the Exclusive Brethren!”. Their goal was to expose the real motivations of the bill’s opponents – that is, safeguarding the National Party’s dirty money – and to do so with humour. Judging by the media coverage they pulled it off.
As expected, ten counterprotesters in the midst of a hundred or so angry Tories were always going to be abused and attacked. Here’s one anti-EFB protester who didn’t seem to have much of an appetite for free speech:
And it might just be me, but doesn’t this look like a lot less than 200 people?
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“The PM agrees here that she would like to see us ‘back in the top half’ of the OECD ratings’.”
The PM was referring to much publicised economic results. We are discussing health and education (where we are in the top half). Sorry Burt, no joy there.
“The search continues.”
Well good on you for trying I guess. But really Burt, if you go round shooting your mouth off like that, shouldn’t you have the facts close at hand? If it is so bad, shouldn’t the facts be at least easy to find?
Or did you just make it up Burt?
New Zealand business and the economy
Burt – you’ll find a few variants of this story. You can post them all, but you’re just making yourself look silly. They are about economic indicators Burt, and we’re discussing health and education.
Try and find something relevant to the actual topic of debate Burt.
rOb
The link to the Aussie election results is great. Looks like Labor are going to stomp home. Good on them, their ‘time for a change’ ads were excellent.
rOb
We’re actually discussing young Labour people denying people they disagree with their democratic right to peaceful protest by shouting them down with megaphones. Under the heading of “Democracy under threat” described as a “Ramshackle PR fiasco”
Some distractors dragged the topic off thread to try and sell the “Labour good” “National bad” line so anything is fair game really.
Sure Education and Health might be in the top half, but ‘overall’ the country still slips backward so how long can we sustain it?
The Auckland University link for example.
Righteo then Burt. Goodnight.
Dear burt,
I would really like to take the discussion of private schools being better than state schools further, if you’re of a mind. I wonder if you have any ideas on what the outcome would be if there were no state schools?
What would your ideal system be under a totally private regime? Would it be up to the individual parents to totally fund their own children’s educations or would you prefer a voucher system funded through taxation with which parents could purchase their children’s education from ‘education companies’, who perhaps might run discreet and competing networks of schools and tertiary institutions throughout the country?
Or is their some other way you’d prefer the NZ education system to be redifined? I’m very interested in reading your ideas.
Thomas “I “know” you are DPF.”
Well, duh, he posts as himself.
Still, I guess both DPF and I get a laugh out of your pathetic claims. All you do is prove over and over again that your are both stupid and a liar. Actually I’m surprised that you have the intelligence to operate a computer.
Cruela
Before we can debate it in a reasonable manner you need to be reasonable. Are you implying I want a situation where there are no state schools or is that what you want?
State funding and state provision are two separate concepts. Sometimes used as one in the same but more often not. Health and Education are examples where the state has a myopic ideology and would rather have people falling off waiting lists than state funding used to get positive outcomes with private providers.
Schooling is much the same. Currently private schools are experiencing significant demand on their limited resources. That primarily being classrooms and space for more classrooms. Teacher retention seems to be much less of an issue in private schools, funny that.
The argument of the state being the funder but not necessarily the provider is an interesting one, and if you want a situation where there are no state run schools then this might be a good starting point for debate.
Well Burtram, given that you get Gruela’s name wrong every single time you address her, I do wonder at the way in which you wield reasonable manners yourself. Just pointing it out in case you’re genuinely mistake. For a change. Cough.
Nih
So I take it you have got nothing to say about state funding and state provision ?
Out of interest, thomas is the only one of the Labour apologists here to say that he thinks that the young Labour people were out of order trying to shout down a democratic protest with megaphones.
Can I assume that all the “reasonable” people here are quite comfortable with the way young Labour conducted themselves and would be quite happy if people behaved that way to disrupt a young Labour convention, or a Greenpeace march?
Looking at Tane’s favourite “”2, 4, 6, 11 – We support the Exclusive Brethren!” I do wonder about you guys sometimes.
What has that got to do with you making a “haw haw nigger” joke at someone elses expense? Not a very good one at that.
So I take it you knew what you were writing then.
By the way, Colonel Burt here is declaring victory in the face of everyone ignoring his trolling. Is someone going to waste time debating with him or can we let him ‘win’? It would be very gracious of us to let the good old boys from the south have one.
Nih
For one so motivated to nit-pick the spelling of peoples aliases you could at least use a lower case “b” for mine.
Yeah, because improperly capitalising your internet alias is like making nigger jokes.
Suck it up burt.
Nih
You will need to explain the nigger joke Nih, I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s missed your point. I do note however you’re still not engaging in anything other than swiping at me.
You mean you didn’t get it from my first post? Don’t be slow burt.
Just kidding. We know you know that you’re being a racist douche. Who knows if you’re like this off the internet, but I would bet money that you’re a douche fulltime.
Keep blabbing you racist windbag.
Nih
You seem to have gone off the deep end for no valid reason, perhaps you could explain to me why I’m suddenly a racist. Race was the last thing in my thoughts (as it usually is) during all of the comments I have made on this thread.
Perhaps you are stuck for insults, I don’t know where you are coming from but calling me racist for any of my comments above is just bizarre. Especially since you continue without any justification of where I even mentioned race at all!
Jesus. You’re like a guy in blackface mock-shrugging while your audience goes hysterical.
Nih
If you’re not proud of the way young Labour people acted but can’t bring yourself to speak out against them then there is no need to denigrate me.
You just rant on without even providing a hint of evidence to back up your assertion I’m being racist. Robinsod normally tells me to take my Ritalin, pehaps he should be talking to you!
Oh, shit? Is that what this is about? How insensitive of me. I’m so sorry. I had no idea you were missing Robinsod you big lug.
Tell you what, if I pat your hand and get you a little glass of water, will you take your ritalin?
Do you sleep after that, or do we have to tell you a fucking story? Sorry, I mean normal story. Don’t tell your parents you heard me say that around you, ok? Otherwise I’ll tell them you were bad.
Nih
Still no substance, just person attacks. You started off so well saying sorry for calling me a racist with no justification then you slipped back into ‘why play the ball when you can play the man’.
Perhaps you could leave the discussion that Gruela asked for to people who want to do more than trade insults.
I didn’t realise mock ignorance was considered such a hearty defence among the ignorant. The truth is you knew exactly what you were doing and kept doing it in the face of someone asking you to stop. Your forumla goes:
Insult
Baseless stance, possibly confused and without sense
Insult
Generally absurd statement regarding current events, the future or other people’s comments
Unfortuntately you’re not very creative so you don’t even make a good read in terms of trolling. I bet I could do a better job of right-wing-troll than you. At least I’d get a theme and a running joke going. Do you want me to create a new far-right login to troll with? I could walk you through the basics of winning arguments too. No? Not keen?
I suppose at least you’re calling her Gruela now instead of that other revolting name you came up with. A win for us all I’d say.
Try to stay on the straight and narrow from now on burt.
I clean forgot this.
Most priceless, precious comment of the night. To continue the alliteration you are the pinkest little princess I have ever perused. Want a lollypop peach?
Seeing as you’re one of the most obnoxious repeat offenders AND a threat to all serious discussion, have you considered leaving the conversation yourself? If you didn’t notice, Greula was probably setting you up to fall. Rule number one of taking down deranged sociopaths: get them to elucidate their stance on everyday issues. You’re like a disenfranchised D4J, why hasn’t your crazy overflowed yet? Scared to shine, burt?
All you do is prove over and over again that your are both stupid and a liar. Actually I’m surprised that you have the intelligence to operate a computer.WTF
Anyone here know how many protesters attended the Christchurch March ?
Nih
If Gruela is setting me up for a fall then bring it on, you are trying hard to trip me up yourself but so far have offered nothing more than personal attacks. A bit of robust debate on the issue would be nice. Is the reason you haven’t elucidated your position because you don’t have one or is it because you get sidetracked attacking me?
BTW: Who appointed you the spokesperson for the thread ?
You neither ignored me, showed good grace, or debated with me – and you imply I’m a deranged sociopath !
Nih this just posted at the bog
Substitute burt’s deranged sociopaths for National supporters and it’s perfect.
Normal National supporters are nothing like these narcissistic morons.
Nih
No Nih, I think it was only you getting hysterical. I actually wouldn’t mind if you would explain to me how and why I was racist because that misunderstanding is still a mystery to me. It’s a mistake I wouldn’t want to repeat again, which is more likely if I have no friggin idea what I said that was racist.
Guys, chill out out for a minute please. As much as I truly enjoy such unashamed personal vendettas as you seem to have going, (it’s such fun to read), I would like to clarify a few things about what I wrote.
I am interested about burt’s ideas about private education because I come from a rural backround, and while I will concede that a market economy may work for the provision of education in a large enough market, once you get into the farmland it becomes much harder to envision how a private provider who was failing to supply the local community with an adequate education framework for their children could easily be replaced. In this situation, the parents can’t decide to just send their kids to the school down the road.
One of the fundamental tenets of a free market has always been the easiest possible entry and exit for suppliers, and I think this is the major problem I would have with a private education system out in the provinces where I live. I would be interested in your thoughts on how this problem could be overcome, burt.
Also, I have to say I’m probably slightly more interested in the mating habits of the bacteria up my left nostril, than I am in how anyone spells my name. Just so you know.
Gruela
The rural environment is an interesting one. My family has branches into a very remote community where very recently the only local school has closed down. In days gone by there has been times when some of the wider family have moved back into the area on a temporary basis to provide ‘numbers’ to the school role to stop it being closed. It’s an unthinkable sacrifice for ‘townies’ to comprehend that people shift part or all of their family so that a local school is not shut down.
However you make a valid point re: How can the govt control the quality when there is a single provider. The Ministry of Ed would be in a far better position to sack a private provider under simple get out clauses in a commercial contract rather than an employment contract.
A motivated teacher (the kind we like) would work in either environment. So I don’t have an answer for you, but I do think your concerns about the private provider apply more so to the state provider. The venom against me on this site proves that any service provided by the state should never be questioned re: quality.
In the broader sense I would like to see significant expansion of the independent school model and greater funding for low decile schools. I’d also like to see an approach that manages the school popularity vs unpopularity issues by changing (fixing, more funding, different teachers etc) the unpopular schools rather than restricting the zones on the ones that are popular.
burt
‘The Ministry of Ed would be in a far better position to sack a private provider under simple get out clauses in a commercial contract rather than an employment contract.’
Would it? I’m not convinced. Surely it would come down to how good the lawyer was who drew up the respective contracts. And I also think a large, (probably multinational) company would be more able (and therefore more likely) to challenge the Ministry of Ed in a prolonged court case if the Ministry were to end their contract, than a single teacher on a private contract would. And while this was going on, the kids and their parents would be left in limbo.
I have two main problems with private schools:
(1) Profit. In a free market, the providers aren’t going to produce the goods if they’re not making money. A state run system doesn’t need to supply a dividend (except for well-educated kids.) Ergo, state run = more money for books and crayons.
(2) Community. The parents sending their kids to a state run school know that they actually own the school. Therefore you’re going to get a much higher level of involvement from the locals. In a private school I think you’d get a lot more of the attitude ‘well, let the teachers fix it. Isn’t that what I pay my fees for?”
Gruela
I can understand that you have little faith in the Govt’s ability to operate within a tight legal framework as would be required for a public/private partnerships involving schools. This issue is however another issue that relates to the current Govt and their apparent inability to draft robust legislation and/or stick within the law themselves, not something that is an issue with private provision per-sae.
One of the things that I always find interesting is that the supporters of monopolistic state provision are very quick to identify that a single private provider might be under performing yet there seems to be some ideological stance that all instances of state provision are identical and off exceptional quality and value for money. You quickly point out that a private provider might be under performing and difficult to remove/replace yet the concept that a single state school is under performing seems to escape you. It’s also interesting that you seem to think that parents in private schools will just leave the school to it since they are paying for it, my experience is quite the opposite. Having kids in both private and state schools I think I’ve got a pretty good understanding of this. I’ve given up talking with the principal of the local state school, he just hides behind the “There is nothing I can do about it”. This has never been the response from the principals of the private school(s) I have dealt with, they know that their business depends on good academic results and good PR rather than just opening their doors in the morning and ringing the bell.
I stated earlier in this thread that the relationship between quality of education and profit is loose. I can’t see how the state schools cant provide the same quality of education as private schools without the need to make a profit. Without the requirement to make a profit the cost to the consumers would be substantially lower (see integrated schools). However if you are are saying that profit is necessary for quality education then the stats on school results will generally back you up. I certainly won’t argue that’s it looks like there is strong correlation between profit and excellent school outcomes however I don’t think it needs to be this way. It is however easy to just say that the state schools can never match the private schools for resources, but that’s just a cop out. State schools can be excellent, and a few are even if they are zoned and not everybody can afford to live in their zone, but they will not be excellent if our expectations are low and we don’t demand any accountability from them.
Class sizes are a big issue, high decile state schools are funded 1-30. (1 teacher per 30 students). This is ridiculous, completely head in the sand type stuff, especially against an 8 year old promise to fix health and education.
Do you have an opinion on school zoning ? If you are from a rural area it might be something you have never had to consider, but like a lot of things that get done in monopoly provider situations, zoning is to make life easier for the Min of Ed and has no benefits for the students. Great for real estate prices however and if you have been lucky enough to own real estate in a school zone that has become in high demand it’s a big bonus.