Toitu te Tiriti

Written By: - Date published: 12:20 pm, February 7th, 2024 - 68 comments
Categories: act, Maori Issues, national, nz first, Politics, treaty settlements - Tags:

This Waitangi Day has been fascinating.

Can I acknowledge the response of Ngāpuhi and other Iwi to the Government during the past couple of weeks. Their anger is palpable and their reo very direct but they made their protest noisily but peacefully and given the Government the chance to complain about lawlessness. And the sense of unity has been profound.

The Government continues to look very messy.

It has given David Seymour a trumpet that he is blowing with all of his might. He has this internally consistent blather that he keeps using that borrows from the language of universal rights and superficially sounds ok but it completely ignores and distorts reality.

Seymour’s basic problem is that he starts with a clean slate and ignores history. His analysis puts to one side treaty rights that have been clearly established and it ignores the history of grotesque breaches of the treaty that have occurred.

His analysis is pretty clumsy. He claims that the treaty is between two races. it is not. It is between the Crown and Maori and was to do no more than preserve to Maori what they already had.

It also claims that Maori are privileged. They are not. The most cursory analysis of economic or health or educational statistics or incaraceration rates would show this to be a lie.

His proposal if it passes would cement in treaty breaches. Families who gained large landholdings through egregious breaches of the treaty will have their wealth preserved. Maori who lost out will have any residual interests extinguished.

If he succeeds then the rights of Tangata Whenua will be reduced. And the rights of the wealthy will be further enhanced and protected.

Christopher Luxon has not come out of this well.

His speech at Waitangi, read from prepared notes, was panned for being boring and tone deaf. It then transpired that he had copied and pasted large parts of the speech from his speech last year. He had the chance to actually talk about the future of Te Tiriti and he essentially ignored it.

Madeleine Chapman at Spinoff describes his speech as so boring it became insulting.

She says this:

What Luxon’s hosts and attendants really wanted to hear from his speech was his own party’s view on te Tiriti and Treaty principles. Having just heard from, and sung over, David Seymour, the crowd and those watching were waiting to hear whether Luxon would distance himself from Act’s stance or seek to defend it. Instead he said nothing. Instead he spoke about the Treaty only briefly (and benignly) and those remarks were repeated verbatim from his Waitangi speech as leader of the opposition in 2023. In the 12 months since the first time he spoke those words, Luxon has become prime minister and formed a coalition where te Tiriti and Treaty principles are a core issue, if not the core issue (not to mention other NZ First and Act policies around te reo Māori and history in schools). So to simply repeat his preamble about the signing of the Treaty this year, as if the context was anything close to the same, is lazy at best.

Perhaps the intent was to bore everyone into submission. Again from Chapman’s article:

By the halfway point, half the crowd was talking amongst themselves and by the time it ended, there was palpable relief in the air. Which in Luxon’s mind is probably better than what his colleagues got. The animosity towards Seymour moments earlier was palpable, and will continue for as long as he pushes his bill forward. But when Seymour spoke, he responded to the direct claims made against him – though they hardly eased tensions – as well as getting out his prepared speaking points. Winston Peters just yelled at everyone but even he managed to reference lines from other speakers to show he was paying attention.

This morning in another word salad interview he said that National would not support the bill beyond the first reading.  The interview was frustrating.  He said the Treaty was not for changing.  He also confirmed that the coalition agreement provided for the Bill to first reading “but no support beyond that”.  He should have been asked which way National would vote at the second reading of the Treaty Principles Bill.  Nothing less than a resounding no will raise concern.  And a resounding no would raise the question why are we going through this divisive charade.

He also claimed that the recycling of his previous speech was “intentional”. As if.

At a minimum this clown show will continue for six months.  A cynic would think that this is providing a smoke screen for other actions, such as the significant cuts the Government is planning to make to core services to pay for its tax cuts.But it clear what we will have for the foreseeable future.  A minor party leader willing to cause chaos for political advantage.  And a Prime Minister who is not in control.

68 comments on “Toitu te Tiriti ”

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  1. Gosman 1
    7 February 2024 at 12:53 pm

    David Seymour is all in favour of rectifying past wrongs. He is a strong supporter of the Treaty settlement process which has as it's core goal the very thing you claim he is against.

    What he is against is defining the Treaty principles (not the Treaty itself) in such a manner as to create two separate definitions of citizenship in NZ. By all means argue the case why you want to do this if you support it but his (and many others) views is that the Treaty did not in fact lead to that and nor should we want it to.

    You just have to see The Maori party's ridiculous proposal for Maori to be able to negotiate their own trade agreements with other nations to see how the sort of thinking David Seymour opposes is problematic to us as a nation state.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/questions-raised-over-rawiri-waititis-suggestion-maori-need-their-own-trade-agreements/JJHUGA2EPJHB3HSTHRNMONWHAA/

    • James Simpson 1.1
      7 February 2024 at 1:30 pm

      I do find the Maori Party's strategy here somewhat confusing.

      It is a very aggressive and antagonistic position and I'm not sure how it would ever work in practice.

      But in my view its dumb because it plays right into Seymour's hands. He will use this proposal as evidence of something that he is trying to prevent.

      • Gosman 1.1.1
        7 February 2024 at 1:48 pm

        And you would be right. Of course the ACT party will use Waititi's idiotic idea as ammunition for why the definition of what the Treaty means for NZ by people like him is unworkable in a modern democratic society and goes against the idea of one law for all.

      • Tom.smith 1.1.2
        7 February 2024 at 6:41 pm

        I never saw this outburst, however these types of things just re-enforce the craziness that people associate with this individual and makes the chances evermore likely that a referendum will happen simply because people want to draw a line under this sort of thing and move on. I suspect support for a referendum (regardless of what the media will tell you) increased from its safe majority position after the antics over the weekend.

        [You appear to be a relatively recent astroturfing troll who only spouts RW BS without any substance. Lift your game. This is your warning – Incognito]

        • Incognito 1.1.2.1
          7 February 2024 at 9:22 pm

          Mod note

        • Tom.smith 1.1.2.2
          7 February 2024 at 9:29 pm

          Just agreeing with the two posts above. The same is also echoed my one Chris Trotter who is a famously left wing blogger and on this topic I fully agree with him. I’m not sure it’s a LW or RW argument at all.

          • Incognito 1.1.2.2.1
            7 February 2024 at 9:46 pm

            Your language and style give you away. You support your claims in and by your actions, i.e., your comments here.

            With what of Trotter do you “full agree” that’s relevant to this Post? Specify it, possibly with a short quote, and a link. This might encourage genuine robust debate instead of spouting vague unsubstantiated reckons.

            Lift your game.

            • Tom.smith 1.1.2.2.1.1
              7 February 2024 at 11:29 pm

              Ok, let’s do that. So, the writer of this opinion piece states here that David Seymour’s interpretation is wrong, and that the coalition is disorganised, unstable, and hiding behind this to make un mandated changes behind the scenes. I would say that is completely false. From their actions, and what I see this is well managed, well executed, the roles and responsibilities are established and they are executing according to their promises made during the election, which they won handsomely. Chris Trotter argued that the non-mandated changes made during the prior term went way way too far, and were incompatible with a functioning democracy, and would lay a platform for exactly what we are seeing now to happen. I agreed with him then, and he has turned out to be correct. The media also interviewed Chris Hipkins at Waitangi and put this directly to him. Obviously he denied responsibility. As far as I can tell David Seymour wants what the treaty says to be enshrined in law, not an interpretation of what the people that signed it might have been thinking. No one knows that, and so all we have are the words. I also find it quite bizarre that you allow people to talk about groups like the atlas group being behind all of this and allow it to be written as though they are facts. RW bloggers talked endlessly during the last few terms about Jacinda being a WEF plant as part of their plan to take over the world. That was completely bizarre as well, and yet they persisted for years, and of course in the end, it wasn’t true. So I guess we will see more and more ‘evidence’ that our political environment is being managed by something called the Atlas group and that will be acceptable debate?

              • mickysavage …
                8 February 2024 at 7:38 am

                Have you actually read the Treaty or any of the historical analyses of it?

                And here is something for you to read about Atlas – https://thestandard.org.nz/atlas-smirked/

                • Gosman …
                  8 February 2024 at 7:50 am

                  Question for you Micky – Do you think the Treaty of Waitangi establishes that if you are able to link to a Hapu/Iwi in NZ via whakapapa this means you currently have greater rights than a New Zealander who does not have that linkage in terms of governance of this country (whether that be having veto rights over important decisions or having additional protections of their property)?

              • Incognito …
                8 February 2024 at 9:02 am

                As is the case so often with astroturfing trolls, they dig in and double down with more unsubstantiated drivel when challenged. Thus, your comment only embeds the Mod note.

                I strongly suspect that your next comment will be met with strong & decisive moderation, as you’ve had your warning (several now, in fact).

                TTFN

        • lprent 1.1.2.3
          8 February 2024 at 12:02 am

          Actually reads like a chatGPT. Mindless parrot repeating something they read elsewhere and trying to put it into a grammatically correct sentence.

          Umm.. I am getting a bit sick and tired of some junk hiding behind IPv6.

          I think I'll try some of the options to push it back to IPv4 to simplify getting rid of the idiot bots.

    • weka 1.2
      7 February 2024 at 2:42 pm

      NZH link from behind the paywall

      https://archive.is/duV4a

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    7 February 2024 at 1:26 pm

    Seymour needs to be slapped down–and it will happen–just not quickly enough for me, let alone Māoridom.

    “Incel Dave” is exhibit A for MAGA NZ style. Authoritarian populism is not rising up like a floater in a swimming pool for no reason–it is co-ordinated and funded by various streams of international capital and associated ideologists.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/06/rishi-sunak-javier-milei-donald-trump-atlas-network

    I chose the Monbiot article about Atlas because he typically appears in print rather than crazed YouTubes, and is a middle of the roader imo.

    Am a 4th gen Pākehā NZer and happy to be included in the modern Tangata Tiriti descriptor… (People of the Treaty, non Māori New Zealanders, which includes pākehā and other tau iwi). The term was first coined by Sir Edward Durie in 1989, and recently used by Debbie Packer from Te Pāti Māori, sometimes as “Ngati Tiriti”.

    If it comes to direct action I will definitely support it. Hopefully there is no mass Hikoi to Parliament though (a huge resource sucker)–hit them where it hurts regionally!

    • Gosman 2.1
      7 February 2024 at 1:39 pm

      Instead of engaging in a counter to David Seymour and ACT's position you instead choose ad hominem attacks against him and then try to imply his views aren't valid because you think they are funded by groups you disagree with despite not having a shred of hard evidence that this is the case.

      Thankfully, outside a small bunch of hard core leftists, many, many New Zealanders don't accept such nonsense.

      I did find your inadvertent humour hilarious though. George Monbiot is a middle of the roader – Yeah, right!

      • Darien Fenton 2.1.1
        7 February 2024 at 1:49 pm

        Oh really? Where were you yesterday? Where were the “hard core leftists”? Must have been in the thousands descending on Hoana Waititi's celebration in West Auckland, or in the thousands who came to Waitangi in numbers not seen for a long time or in the celebrations around the motu. The Taniwha has awakened the people. I just wish it had been before the election.

        • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1
          7 February 2024 at 1:54 pm

          There were celebrations and people in numbers in various places this year including the radical South Island… the organisers were oversubscribed and had to swing into action with extra kai supplies
          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/waitangi-day-thousands-expected-at-south-islands-longest-running-commemoration/2FT4QPVLURDUFJR6K2IR7N3SYU/

        • Gosman 2.1.1.2
          7 February 2024 at 1:54 pm

          Noone is arguing that many Maori (and others) are not upset by the proposed bill on the Treaty principles. Go and re-read my first sentence and you will see it is focused on the accusations about the Atlas network and the personal attack on David Seymour. Do you support that sort of thing Ms Fenton?

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.2.1
            7 February 2024 at 2:29 pm

            Māori are upset by Seymour's claims and actions?

            So what.

            Collateral damage.

            When you KNOW you're right, you soldier on, despite the brickbats.

            Am I catching your tenor, Gosman?

            • Gosman 2.1.1.2.1.1
              7 February 2024 at 2:50 pm

              Did you care that many people were upset over the last Govt's decision to remove interest deductability from Residential rental properties? Any policy will have a certain section of society unhappy about it. The art of politics is ensuring you can manage that level of upset so you don't get voted out.

              • Robert Guyton …
                7 February 2024 at 2:59 pm

                "a certain section", Gosman?

                Such a warm-hearted fellow you are!

                Seymour whined about being called an insect, but at least that's a living being.

                "a certain section"

                Hmmmm…

          • weka 2.1.1.2.2
            7 February 2024 at 2:58 pm

            Go and re-read my first sentence and you will see it is focused on the accusations about the Atlas network and the personal attack on David Seymour.

            You don't really explain yourself though, apart from saying there is no evidence of a connection between Atlas and ACT.

            I thought the incel comment was stupid (unnecessarily inflammatory), but the rest of the comment is political analysis and opinion, which is what we do here.

            Re Atlas, I just added the word as a tag to all micky's posts on them, for reference and to make clear what the connections are 😈

            https://thestandard.org.nz/tag/Atlas/

            • Gosman 2.1.1.2.2.1
              7 February 2024 at 3:30 pm

              Tiger Mountain was trying to downplay the significance of David Seymour's views due to the (unproven) allegation that the Atlas network funds the spreading of such viwes in any significant manner in NZ. That is just muckraking and deflection in my book but if that is "political analysis and opinion" then that is your choice.

              • Robert Guyton …
                7 February 2024 at 4:04 pm

                "… the personal attack on David Seymour. Do you support that sort of thing Ms Fenton?"

                "Waititi's idiotic idea". Do you support that sort of personal attack, Mr Gosman?

                • Gosman …
                  8 February 2024 at 7:26 am

                  I called his idea idiotic not Mr Waititi. Mr Waititi is actually very clever. He certainly knows what to do to rark up his base. Unfortunately that means he proposes idiotic ideas like the one he put forward on trade agreements.

              • Tiger Mountain …
                7 February 2024 at 4:16 pm

                A careful read of weka’s link @2.1.1.2.2 may disabuse you of the thought that I am just being mean to Mr Seymour.

              • weka …
                7 February 2024 at 4:21 pm

                here is what TM said,

                “Incel Dave” is exhibit A for MAGA NZ style. Authoritarian populism is not rising up like a floater in a swimming pool for no reason–it is co-ordinated and funded by various streams of international capital and associated ideologists.

                So the claims are:

                • that Seymour is doing Trumpian politics.
                • authoritarian populism is on the rise
                • the rise is being co-ordinated and funded by groups with specific ideology and access to lots of international money.

                None of that seems particularly controversial.

                Of course Atlas aren't going to fund ACT directly, that would be stupid and counterproductive to both organisations' aims. The issue isn't whether Atlas are funding ACT, it's whether the aims are the same and whether Atlas are supporting those aims in NZ. That connection is pretty clear via the Taxpayers Union.

                • Gosman …
                  8 February 2024 at 7:29 am

                  Why would it be stupid for Atlas to fund ACT? It isn't illegal so long as it is disclosed. In fact trying to hide funding is illegal so doing it in a surreptitiousway would be more stupid because if it ever got out they open themselves up for prosecution.

                  As for whether the aims are the same – well d’uh! Greenpeace’s aims are pretty much the same as NZ Greens. That doesn’t mean they have control over what the NZ Greens do and it would be wrong to claim they do as the implications for what people like Tiger Mountain are trying to claim with Atlas and ACT.

                  • mickysavage …
                    8 February 2024 at 7:35 am

                    What do you think about Atlas funding the Taxpayer’s Union?

                    • Gosman …
                      8 February 2024 at 7:45 am

                      I think you have little evidence there is any significant funding from Atlas to the TPU who gets the vast majority of funding from NZ based sources and largely (from what I've read) from small scale donations and subscriptions. If you have any hard evidence to the contrary rather than your wild speculation then present it. I am pretty confident you won't and will attempt to deflect from that question by bringing up some sort of loose linkage between members of Atlas and members of the TPU. So how about it Micky – have you got this evidence ?

                    • weka []
                      8 February 2024 at 1:37 pm

                      I am pretty confident you won’t and will attempt to deflect from that question by bringing up some sort of loose linkage between members of Atlas and members of the TPU

                      It’s not a loose linkage,

                      Executive Director Jordan Williams attended an Atlas Network training session in 2015, and later received a fellowship grant from Atlas in 2018 to support the growth of the Taxpayers’ Union.[18] As of 2020, the Taxpayers Union is an official partner of the Atlas Network, alongside the New Zealand Initiative think-tank.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Taxpayers%27_Union

                  • weka …
                    8 February 2024 at 1:17 pm

                    Why would it be stupid for Atlas to fund ACT? It isn't illegal so long as it is disclosed. In fact trying to hide funding is illegal so doing it in a surreptitiousway would be more stupid because if it ever got out they open themselves up for prosecution.

                    Bad PR. And, I'm not saying they should/would do it surreptitiously, I'm saying they don't need to do it at all. They can just fund the Taxpayers Union etc instead.

                    As for whether the aims are the same – well d’uh! Greenpeace’s aims are pretty much the same as NZ Greens. That doesn’t mean they have control over what the NZ Greens do and it would be wrong to claim they do as the implications for what people like Tiger Mountain are trying to claim with Atlas and ACT.

                    Tiger didn't make a claim about Atlas and ACT. I already summarised TM's claims,

                    • that Seymour is doing Trumpian politics.
                    • authoritarian populism is on the rise
                    • the rise is being co-ordinated and funded by groups with specific ideology and access to lots of international money.

                    You seem to be missing the point. There is a global rising of authoritarianism and fascism. Many groups have broadly similar aims. Like ACT and Atlas.

                    Your comparison with Greenpeace and the Green Party is good. Except that they want wellbeing for all of life and Atlas and ACT want power and control so they can pillage nature and society.

                    It's like the RWers who do Nationals work for them without being paid. Hooton, Farrar, and RW trolls on TS would be some examples. This doesn't preclude money or other exchange in that mix, but TM's argument doesn't rely on a direct funding link between ACT and Atlas.

        • James Simpson 2.1.1.3
          7 February 2024 at 2:23 pm

          The Taniwha has awakened the people. I just wish it had been before the election

          Do you think that any one of those thousands who turned up voted for this government?

        • mickysavage 2.1.1.4
          7 February 2024 at 8:13 pm

          I was at Hoani Waititi Marae. The unity behind the treaty was palpable.

      • Mike the Lefty 2.1.2
        7 February 2024 at 6:41 pm

        It may come as news to you Gosman, but it isn't just hard core leftists that don't accept the Seymour version of things.

        There is a lot of disquiet out there about what Seymour's real motives are. His opponents don't necessarily wear mokos or march in hikois, but they are there – worried about where this is all going to lead, and what kind of race divisions this is going to exploit.

        ACT is not doing this simply for equality, you predictably swallow that b.s but some people can see through a party that has never before shown interest in any kind of equality.

        • lprent 2.1.2.1
          8 February 2024 at 12:13 am

          Yes. It has been quite interesting to see just how wide the anger against David Seymour's stupidity is.

          Seymour is an arsehole who clearly has only read the mythology about the treaty. Probably been told that the English version as the one read to the people who signed the treaty. Clearly doesn't understand

          I must spend some more time over in Epsom electorate, I'd like to find the ignorant rat and explain to him exactly how fucked off I am with the ignorant little wanker act. I’m am sure that he will enjoy that I am expressing my free speech and will not try to call the cops.

          Also loudly point out that while he keeps saying that his ideas will make everyone equal, he has been completely incapable of presenting any ideas about how he is going to remove the obvious inequities for maori with prison demographics, income demographics, age of death, smoking levels, endemic diseases, …

          In fact David Seymour appears to be completely clueless about any ideas about how to do anything if it doesn't revolve around a pithy little slogan. Just a useless parasite.

          • roblogic 2.1.2.1.1
            8 February 2024 at 3:25 am

            Spotted him around Parnell a couple of times… the ACT mobile is never far away

          • Gosman 2.1.2.1.2
            8 February 2024 at 7:35 am

            He's answered specific questions posed to him just recently on how he is going to remove the obvious inequities impacting sections of society. He stated he wants to focus on need not race and will target areas such as education, housing, and job creation. You might not agree with his proposals but it is not accurate to state he has been incapable of presenting any ideas on the subject.

            • lprent 2.1.2.1.2.1
              16 February 2024 at 2:42 pm

              You really are a silly sucker…

              You'll note that Seymour and Act have never made anything specific. No speech, no policies has any detail beyond hand-waving about how this will assist in dealing with identifiable needs.

              No detail about any of what the needs are, the actions to taken to alleviate those needs, nor what the expected effect will be nor any ideas about timetable or how these efforts will be paid for.

              This isn't a mistake or even incompetence. This is a deliberate policy that is commonly used by scammers like the Act party everywhere.

              What Seymour has done is to say effectively "I have no fucking ideas and I couldn't exert effort to make any". It is exactly what I expect from Act. Completely dumbarse ineffective hand-waving so that they can make someone worse off while enriching themselves..

              In short what you are saying is that we should believe a fool bullshitting while cutting programs that have been working for a fantasy that he will never ever try to make exist.

              Personally I can't see any difference between Seymour and someone like Walter Mantell – who was another well-meaning unthinking idiot working for scammers as "commissioner for extinguishing native titles, Middle Island (South Island)". I'm sure that like Mantell, that Seymour will look back aghast as outcomes for Maori get worse

              In August 1848 Mantell was appointed to the office of commissioner for extinguishing native titles, Middle Island (South Island), with the initial responsibility of setting aside reserves for Ngāi Tahu within the Canterbury block, recently purchased by Henry Tacy Kemp. Mantell was instructed to induce Ngāi Tahu to combine their numerous settlements into as few localities as possible, while making 'liberal provision … for their present and future wants'. However, this 'liberal provision', according to Governor George Grey's instructions, involved limiting the reserves to 10 acres per head of Ngāi Tahu population. Mantell did just this, reserving 6,359 acres for an estimated population of 637, out of a block estimated to contain 60 million acres – all this in the face of what he saw as the sullenness and 'determined resentment' of Ngāi Tahu. Their resentment was not surprising, since Grey had earlier promised them that if they sold the block they would receive reserves 'for their present and reasonable future wants' and the government would provide them with schools, hospitals and general care.

              At this time Mantell was content to serve the interests of government, to which he looked for future employment; his services were duly rewarded.

              and

              Mantell took leave of absence and returned to England in 1855.

              Mantell was becoming preoccupied by a concern that was to haunt his conscience and affect his career for the rest of his life: the non-fulfilment of promises he and others had made to Ngāi Tahu at the time of the original land purchases. Just before his departure Mantell complained that, on reminding the government of the unfulfilled promises, he was referred to the General Assembly, in which neither the imperial government nor the Māori were represented. Unsatisfied in New Zealand, Mantell appealed to the secretary of state for the colonies; he was refused an interview and resigned his New Zealand appointment. He returned to New Zealand and took his case to the General Assembly, being elected to the House of Representatives for Wallace in 1861.

              Mantell's chequered parliamentary career was affected by his temperamental personality and persistent but unavailing attempts to rectify the broken promises to Ngāi Tahu. In July 1861 he accepted office as native minister in the Fox government, on condition that the promises to Ngāi Tahu would be fulfilled. He resigned six months later when that condition was repudiated. He again accepted office in the Domett and Weld ministries, on the same conditions, and resigned from both when the promises were not fulfilled. In 1866 he retired from the House but accepted a seat in the Legislative Council, which he retained until his death. In various government inquiries into Ngāi Tahu claims, such as the 1888 Joint Committee on the Middle Island Native Claims, Mantell remained a persistent advocate of the Ngāi Tahu cause. He resented the procrastination over settlement of the claim and felt that he had been unwittingly led to negotiate under false pretences.

              What Seymour says sounds exactly like every other way that has been used to screw Maori out of contracts and agreements. A well-meaning brainless fool stuck in as front-man for a well-heeled charlatans intent on scamming Maori.

              Right now (if I am charitable), Seymour appears to be in the phrase of " ..all this in the face of what he saw as the sullenness and 'determined resentment' of.. " [Maori]. No doubt he will be eventually as upset when his unspecified miracles to deal with Maori needs like increasing lifespans or reducing imprisonment fail miserably because there is no bloody plan (or probably intent) to even try.

              But by then it will be just too late. All that he will have achieved is to ensure that the equality of outcomes that he professes to want never happens because he will have left the planning and financing in the hands of scamming arseholes like Governor Grey or the NZ Land Company who never saw a contract that they didn't want to break.

              Act – the party of scammers who don't like abiding by contracts and are out for screwing others to benefit themselves.

  3. Bryan Dods 3
    7 February 2024 at 2:25 pm

    Gosman, In your first comment you take on the personal approach by explaining Seymour's behaviour.

    Your following paragraphs constantly challenge"you" for their behaviour.
    Is it the author MS, or is it being used in that old spin technique of trying to push an audience into following your line by making the "you" personal.

    Then, laugh of the day, along you come again and post a comment making a very personal attack on another's comment.

    Many, many New Zealanders don't accept such nonsense.

  4. roblogic 4
    7 February 2024 at 2:29 pm

    Unfortunately the right has found electoral success from divisive race baiting rhetoric.

    The festering worms of prejudice and resentment, once nursed in private by people accustomed to privilege, have now come crawling out into public view.

    The right will not alter a profitable strategy until such time as they perceive a shift in the wind of public mood, then they will try and change tack to save themselves

    • Robert Guyton 4.1
      7 February 2024 at 2:37 pm

      2 notables didn't turn up at the Waitangi celebrations at Motupohue/Bluff yesterday, nor did they show at Te Ropu Taiao hui of the mayors of Murihiku and Ngāi Tahu at Murihiku Marae today: Discord and David.

      Neither were missed.

  5. Adrian 5
    7 February 2024 at 2:33 pm

    If any CEO gave an almost identical speech to a shareholders meeting two years in a row he would find himself out on his arse pretty quickly. It is a sign of laziness, an out-of-touchiness and arrogance, a sort of “” I’ve got your money now I’m just going to sleep walk my way through this “. Most of us have come across a few of these incompetent arseholes in life and it never ends well for them, see Trump,Truss, Scotty from Marketing et al and any number of bosses we may have had. They may have pocketed the money but their suitcoat of reputation is in tatters.

    [Please correct your email in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

  6. SPC 6
    7 February 2024 at 2:39 pm

    To honour, to uphold, to uphold and enhance, and even onto more competent at understanding and being who we are now.

    Apart from this there is another approach – a mechanistic one as per iwi settlements and reducing Waitangi Tribunal role to this – where the ACT and NZF positions converge. Both oppose UNDRIP, and the Treaty as to their being an indigenous people (as per 1835) with any partnership with the Crown.

    Prebble tries to provide heft to Seymour and Peters and Luxon, by focusing on the Bill of Rights needing to be enhanced as a complementary work to reducing the Tribunal's role (and the Treaty in legislation).

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-problems-with-seymours-treaty-principles-bill-richard-prebble/B7243V7MBJAG5LNN6MZEMCQTMI/

    https://archive.li/wj2IP

    That achieves their objective of diminishing the Treaty as a block on an elitist agenda and resort to majority against minority "special" rights to make that populist.

    The elitist agenda is to reduce the block on Overseas Investment to a national security test and allow high country farms by lakes, land by rivers, coastal land and fisheries to be up for sale.

    • SPC 6.1
      7 February 2024 at 2:54 pm

      The land for sale issue is a reprise of the Foreshore and Seabed issue. National and the MP ended the public domain status, with no ownership but private and the Maori able to get customary use rights awarded by a court.

      Until now the MP/TPM has been protected from the consequences of that approach by the overseas investment rules including our national interest – now the coalition partners of National are ACT and NZF, this might change.

      New Zealanders have been used to a commons right of access to the F and S (and also walking trails etc) that might well change to a different concept that occurs overseas.

  7. Ad 7
    7 February 2024 at 3:06 pm

    An area that has always perplexed me in our history is how our Prime Ministers and Maori leaders actually tilt history. In his speech it wasn't unreasonable for Luxon to call down recent National Prime Ministers such as Bolger. But it’s not enough.

    The Prime Minister that set the tone for expanding the NZ state while also engaging closely with Maori is Seddon. That era saw massive Maori organised efforts to resist the growing force and reach of the state in all its forms, nearly always unsuccessfully.

    So my recommendation for Luxon is to read this one. It starts to unpack how the modern NZ state was formed, how the Prime Minister led that formation, and the depth of Maori organisational resistance to it.

    undefined

    It's so evident that Luxon has a corporatist operating structure and language completely unsuited to Parliament. This is similar to Key when he started as leader, but Key was such a quick study.

    For the sake of the country Luxon needs to be briefed in depth on the theory and history of state-Maori partnership and tension.

    • Patricia Bremner 7.2
      7 February 2024 at 4:16 pm

      PM Luxon shows no grace, although he uses the bible references, and it is evident he is fixated on his own view of the situation, to the point of repeating himself.

      This focus borders on a blinkered view, and he misses prompts and opportunities. His behaviour is that of a man out of his depth and thinking it does not matter, as he is out to win, bulldozing his way through impediments with little reflection or consideration.

      He did however comment on disrespect. His?surprise No no!! Other people!!

      Further he "told" Maori "We want to improve things for you". He failed to hear Maori want to "Do things for themselves, in their own way" So hence the "Talking past each other"

      Reading listening comprehending and using information, means a level of discernment. Is that evident?

      Maori korero will not change such an obdurate man, who stubbornly thinks he is right, and his failure to recognise danger signs is bad for us all, here in our country and in International relations. imo

      • Michael Scott 7.2.1
        7 February 2024 at 6:18 pm

        Patricia I agree that Luxon fails to give consideration to the many Maori who want to "Do things for themselves, in their own way"

        The big question we need to address in terms of honouring the treaty is the sovereignty issue.

        Do we want to- as a nation- go down the path of separate development. By Maori for Maori.

        Separate Health and Justice systems. Potentially a separate Maori Parliament.

        How would we fund it all?

        Would a separate Justice system alter the long established principle of one law for all? I'm looking for debate on these issues.

        • SPC 7.2.1.1
          7 February 2024 at 7:02 pm

          There is already whanau ora, ACT (and National) do not oppose a funder provider split.

          As per justice the problem is re-offending by those who leave prison with no housing or jobs to go to.

          1.Work release from prison – money for a bond so to home detention with work release until the sentence is served. Low risk of re-offending.

          This encourages focus on employment to get an earlier release.

          2.Release from prison without job – a (Maori) community housing provider that manages them via training into work.

          Fear of change is alleviated by doing things that work.

          • Michael Scott 7.2.1.1.1
            7 February 2024 at 8:31 pm

            Does anyone know what percentage of Maori prisoners are gang members?

            I assume that most go back to their gangs upon release and continue to live their outlaw lives.

            Would they be interested in the provision of jobs or housing?

            • SPC 7.2.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2024 at 8:38 pm

              Even Muldoon could give gang members PEP, whereas you see them as natural born outlaws for life … you are not ready for debate on these issues.

        • Patricia Bremner 7.2.1.2
          7 February 2024 at 8:26 pm

          Truly, where Maori have been given rights, they have shared the outcome and enriched us all.( Kapa haka for instance.)
          There are a few voices asking for total control of their world, but that is a direct challenge to the 'removals' going on. The majority want what is best for us all. PM Luxon's move today to remove cultural reports continues the assault.

  8. Adrian 8
    7 February 2024 at 3:36 pm

    I presume you are assuming that the Prime Minister can read , note; have not included ‘understand’ , anything more complex than a very short list of bullet points.
    Sorry Incognito, for the brain fade.

  9. CharlieB 9
    7 February 2024 at 5:40 pm

    Luxon keeps harping on about how National won't support this bill past the first reading.

    So that has me thinking, does that preclude the bill proceeding further if Luxon decides to allow his MP's to vote as individuals as apposed to along the party line?

    In other words.

    Is Luxon playing a game of semantics every time he pledges that National won't support the bill past the first reading?

    Because if it is the case that National won't support it past first reading, why support it at all?

  10. thinker 10
    7 February 2024 at 5:42 pm

    I'm learning some of the right's game plan when it comes to politics-by-social media.

    When they know they're on the back foot, out come the hounds, running all over the mainstream media and sites like this, putting spin and mantra to put the left in its place. Like with JFK, don't trust what you saw, trust what we tell you.

    Today, Pullya Benefit, who has been out of politics for so long it's amazing she still speaks for them, found herself harking back to Jacinda Arderns 2018 Waitangi Day speech to try to redirect criticism off Luxon. I guess desperate times do call for desperate measures.

    Good on newshub for asking her to put detail to the supposed-stats she was spouting, but a response in the vein of 'We're not talking about Ardern six years ago, we're talking about Luxon yesterday" could also suffice.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/02/paula-bennett-hits-out-at-jacinda-ardern-s-vacuous-promises-in-2018-waitangi-speech-following-christopher-luxon-s-backlash.amp.html

    • SPC 10.1
      7 February 2024 at 7:14 pm

      What Paula Bennett has not understood in all her years of politics is this

      "When we return, in one year, in three years, I ask you to ask of us what we have done. Ask us how we have given dignity back to your whānau, ask us what we have done to improve poverty for tamariki, ask us what we have done to give rangatahi opportunities and jobs. Ask us, hold us to account. Because one day I want to be able to tell my child that I earned the right to stand here and only you can tell me when I have done that."

      This should be the standard for a PM at Waitangi.

  11. Ed 11
    7 February 2024 at 7:10 pm

    Just read your amazing and important article’Atlas Smirked’ which was referred to me at a meeting today.

    I learnt so much.

    Thank you.

    i could not express my appreciation there as all comments had been closed.

    The events at Waitingi provide an inspiration for the left. The organisation, unity and solidarity there is what the left must reproduce .

    • mickysavage 11.1
      7 February 2024 at 8:19 pm

      Kia ora. That was written in anger and in fear. This could be a rough time.

      • Anne 11.1.1
        7 February 2024 at 9:43 pm

        Anger can be a positive force. We need more of it mickysavage.

        https://thestandard.org.nz/atlas-smirked/

        George Monbiot's open statement from the linked article in the post says it in a nutshell:

        There are elements of fascism, elements borrowed from the Chinese state and elements that reflect Argentina’s history of dictatorship. But most of the programme for government announced by Javier Milei, the demagogic new Argentinian president, feels eerily familiar, here in the northern hemisphere.

        A crash programme of massive cuts; demolishing public services; privatising public assets; centralising political power; sacking civil servants; sweeping away constraints on corporations and oligarchs; destroying regulations that protect workers, vulnerable people and the living world; supporting landlords against tenants; criminalising peaceful protest; restricting the right to strike. Anything ring a bell?

        It rings a bell right here in NZ.

        Back in the 1970s, a former Public Service colleague said to me…”there would be a revolution one day and billions of people will die either of starvation and disease or war.” He went on to say… “the world's population is growing at an alarming rate and has to be culled and this is how they will do it.” I might add that individual had a fascination for Nazi memorabilia and moved in extreme right wing circles.

        So it would seem these views were being widely disseminated by the extreme right 50 years ago. Gradually over time the political centre has been moved so far to the right, this type of thinking is now being accepted as normal and sane. Those responsible for such a cataclysmic scenario will not be the ones who die of starvation, disease or war of course.

        • Gosman 11.1.1.1
          8 February 2024 at 7:40 am

          What a ridiculous view. ACT is not an extreme right organisation seeking to eliminate surplus population. That sort of demonising rhetoric is hardly conducive to civil discourse. If you really think that then the logical next step is to call for parties like ACT to be banned for being extremist and a threat to society. I wouldn't be surprised if you do think that.

          • Anne 11.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2024 at 10:07 am

            Who is accusing ACT of "seeking to eliminate surplus population?

            The young man back in the 1970s was expressing a line of discourse that he had picked up from his right-wing associates which, at the time, included Colin Ansell's now defunct National Socialist Front. He had no comprehension what shape it would take or who might be involved.

            But it showed the type of thinking that existed amongst the Far Right of society 50 years ago, and how that thinking has evolved and expanded into a form of modern day fascism (or near-fascism) which has been accepted by right wing political parties everywhere and which has the potential to wreak terrible havoc on society around the world.

            We are seeing instances of it this very moment.

  13. theotherpat 13
    7 February 2024 at 8:42 pm

    "It also claims that Maori are privileged. They are not. The most cursory analysis of economic or health or educational statistics or incaraceration rates would show this to be a lie."

    i would ask about this…..around the smoko room table ordinary kiwis speak about this with angst….Maori have the same chances as everyone else……..personal choices are theirs…..its just not right etc etc etc.

    these are the same ilk of the "common man" and not just pakeha who changed voting regiems last election and put these arseholes in power.

    the question being….why would they think/do what they did?

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