Children: the pandemic has only just begun
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- Date published:
11:09 am, April 5th, 2020 - 113 comments
Categories: covid-19, david clark, Economy, health, International -
Tags: bbc, david farrar, heather du plessis-allan, new york, new york times, sean plunket
I’m always intrigued at the capacity of most humans to be self-delusional in the way that they favour to believe regardless of facts. Nothing else could explain the delusional idiots like David Farrar and his mischievous minions like Sean Plunket and Heather du Plessis-Allan wanting to go back to their business as usual – their ministerial scalp collection.
It also appears in the odd statement and comment wanting to drop the lockdown sooner rather than later. Their presumptions about relative economic damage of the lockdown compared to letting the virus rip through the healthy younger parts of our workforce show a serious disconnect from reality.
Oh well, I guess I’ll have to point out the obvious level of dumb stupidity. But first lets review the global situation..
While New Zealand has, so far, we’ve appear to have been pretty good at making sure that we have contained, for the moment, the spread of covid-19. But that just puts us in the middle of the pack. Have a look at this New York Times article on reported cases. Obviously there will be some testing discrepancies.
Then you look at the outbreak countries.
The charts are not without limitations. Each country may have different reporting guidelines, which makes precise comparison among countries difficult. Some countries may be less proactive about testing or reach a limit in their ability to test, which could cause their numbers to be understated.
Still, these charts provide a way to measure the overall trajectory of the coronavirus in each country and give insight into which ones are far from controlling the virus.
All of these countries below have seen an average of more than 2,000 cases per day in the past week, and most of them are not showing any signs of a slowdown.
Basically there is no real difference between the progress of reported cases in most of the countries. Mostly rapid climbs, occasional signs of drops – like South Africa or Taiwan or Lebanon, and signs of outbreaks after a drop or constraint as the epidemic gets out of control again – like Japan.
The only real sustained differences are for China and South Korea, both of whom currently appear to have constrained the outbreaks for significiant .
They have a distinctive shape. Sustained drops with potential outbreaks being constrained.
When you look at the detail about who is getting sick and why, then the best place to look right now is in New York with its transparent reporting. For instance this BBC article “Coronavirus: The young doctors being asked to play god“. My italics, but I see this kind of report out of all of the hotspots worldwide.
And this medic, in her early 30s, tells me the stress is intense. Nearly everyone who arrives at the ER needs to be intubated and put on a ventilator. That would normally be a job done in the Intensive Care Unit. But they are overloaded.
These people need “pressors” – meds that will keep blood pressure up. And that is a job normally done by specialist nurses. But there aren’t the nurses to do it. So people who are untrained are having to do it. “How can I not worry when there are patients not getting the care that they need?”
And she says it is not just the old who are falling prey to this. “There are patients in their 30s and 40s with no pre-existing conditions. Equally, we had a 90-year old man the other day who was brought to the ER after he had fallen at home. He had a broken leg – but he also tested positive for coronavirus – even though he was exhibiting no symptoms.”
It is a confounding virus, is Covid-19.
So when I see calls like this following comment, I really have to ask why the media reporting in NZ is so poor that this mindless ignorant fool simply doesn’t understand the risks to our economy they are calling for.
The facts in NZ are:
Nearly 1000 cases, one death, a handful in hospital with the numbers decreasing.
The one death was from someone in the high risk group.
The evidence here is that for the vast majority the disease is relatively harmless. It seems reasonable to assume the reason that we don’t have more serious cases is that the vulnerable groups are benefiting from the general self-isolating, and hence not getting sick.
Taking all this together, wouldn’t the sensible thing to do be to isolate the at-risk people, and let everyone else get on with getting the economy running again?
Which ever side of the political spectrum we are on, surely we should all be concerned about the massive loss of jobs, and want to see the current situation loosened as quickly as possible.
I am not meaning stopping all the measures. Rather we should increase the testing, and isolate any sick people. And also isolate the at risk people. Then let everyone else go back to work.
Now there are so many false understandings in this comment, that you have to wonder what sewer he has been hiding it. Probably kiwiblog where out many of our most deluded dimwits live in NZ.
Basically this was a line being spun a month ago before the evidence of how the disease actually operates in population who know about it came to light. It isn’t the unexpected onslaught that we saw in China or Italy where the disease spread well before detection.
If you look at where the outbreaks have been happening recently – the people who are most at risk are mostly the healthy and mid-age who are still working. That is because in places like the US, UK, Germany or here, the vulnerable and aged have generally self-isolated themselves. People without adequate support systems like the US have left their people working in a stew of ever increasing exposure levels. So when they get exposed enough, their immune systems can collapse and they get sick.
Only a simpleton or someone extremely resistant to reading could still think that there is no risk to children, teenagers, 20s, 30s, 40s, or 50s. But I guess there are still some of them around. While it may be a lower probability than the over-60s, the probability is still there. And as the level of virus load in the population increases, so will the number of younger people having their immune systems compromised.
We don’t even know for sure yet if the auto-immune responses actually do activate enough to prevent reinfection, yet this commenter wants to test that with most of the population of NZ.
In avy case, with each of these workers falling sick, there will be a pile more of their colleagues, friends and family having to self-isolate because testing can’t identify if they are infected until up to a week after they have been infected. As someone who has run a number of workplaces – I can’t think of anything more damaging to the economics of the country of having workplaces going up and down like a yo-yo.
Talking about fools. You only have to look at idiots making potshots at Ministers of Health for something that has little to do with their job – like this fuckwit statement from Sean Plunket this morning – related only to David Clark going for a ride on a safe track on a offroad bike.
The question of this Minister’s removal is not a debateable point.
At a time when our government and authorities need to have a moral high ground and exercise an unimpeachable authority to ask great sacrifice of citizens this Dr of Theology’s fall from grace is beyond redemption.
Of course it is debatable. Changing ministerial coordination in the midst of a pandemic is a potentially major problem when we haven’t gotten near to controlling the epidemic here. Plunkett should take some time to read the history of exactly how much the lapses of control by key people during the epidemic in 1918 crippled the ability to
What isn’t debatable is that Sean Plunkett is an idiot who really should be fired as being a paper weight in a crisis. Too stupid to actually understand the risks. Too irresponsible to avoid doing unnecessary harm.
But then again, I think exactly the same about my colleague who made the same call in a post yesterday. When I finally read his ridiculous rant, I couldn’t find a single reason that I could recognize in the post why David Clark should have been fired apart for some kind of simpleton moralistic bile. Basically the same rant that Sean Plunket repeated.
Or David Farrar with a similar level of cabin fever and hobbydom. Look at this pile of false equivalences yesterday on testing. Remember that what he is talking about is the nationwide testing capacity in an environment when air flights are extremely limited. And then he compares national tetsing levels to testing at a very local area a long way from other testing labs..
It is simply nuts that the Government keeps saying we are only testing at 50% of our capacity and that we want to test, test, test yet 50% the Southern DHB lab is refusing to test 50% of swabs.
So he made that statement with absolutely no idea about what the actual level capacity of testing in Southland is. It isn’t in any of the material that he referenced. In all likelihood, since both he and the article referenced only the solitary testing lab in Invercargill, the tests were being rejected there because they didn’t have capacity to all of the swabs from local doctors. So they triaged them as they should do.
Nor did he apparently check the flights out of Southland to areas with a higher testing capacity. It doesn’t matter how many testing kits are issued in a DHB area. What matters is the capacity in that area to process the kits.
Southland, because of a series of events, has a high outbreak number. So does Otago at a lesser level. That is why the Southern DHB has the largest number of cases in the county despite having a smaller population of 330 thousand. The Auckland DHBs of Auckland and Waitemata and Counties Manakau have about 1.6 million and have mere kilometres of driving between their testing stations. The distance between Invercargill and Dunedin is about 360km.
The point of the post appears to be the final paragraph.
This is why the Minister of Health should be in Wellington. He should be angry. He should be threatening to fire people unless this is sorted.
For instance the administration of the Southern DHB is in Dunedin, which is where David Clark is. What good would he do ringing from Wellington that he couldn’t do with a local phone call.
David Farrar is another willfully stupid partisan idiot who doesn’t bother to check the available data. It is the kind of dumbass sloppiness that you come to expect when he is irresponsibly practicing mischief. More interested in his ministerial scalp collection than facts or the potential harm he causes.
All of the evidence to date is that where is sufficient level of infection and no lockdown, we get classic epidemic conditions. Everything spirals out of control overwhelming the medical systems. We’re not close to getting to the point where we can make a decision on how to start to end the immediate lock-down without causing outbreaks.
Could the children in the room, please take some time to educate themselves and stop being bored and mischievous? This is a serious outbreak – contain your boredom and hobbies until we get over it. Otherwise you’ll just cause serious harm to yourself and others.
113 comments on “Children: the pandemic has only just begun ”
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- GEOFFREY MILLER: NZ’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and UkraineGeoffrey Miller writes – New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he ...1 week ago
- Gordon Campbell on the government’s smokefree laws debacleThe most charitable explanation for National’s behaviour over the smokefree legislation is that they have dutifully fulfilled the wishes of the Big Tobacco lobby and then cast around – incompetently, as it turns out – for excuses that might sell this health policy U-turn to the public. The less charitable ...1 week ago
- Top 10 links at 10 am for Monday, December 4
1 week ago - Be Honest.
Let’s begin today by thinking about job interviews.During my career in Software Development I must have interviewed hundreds of people, hired at least a hundred, but few stick in the memory.I remember one guy who was so laid back he was practically horizontal, leaning back in his chair until his ...1 week ago - Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he left off. Peters sought to align ...1 week ago - Auckland rail tunnel the world’s most expensive1 week ago
- First big test comingThe first big test of the new Government’s approach to Treaty matters is likely to be seen in the return of the Resource Management Act. RMA Minister Chris Bishop has confirmed that he intends to introduce legislation to repeal Labour’s recently passed Natural and Built Environments Act and its ...1 week ago
- Teanau Tuiono first Green MP appointed Assistant Speaker
The Green Party is pleased to announce today that MP Teanau Tuiono will be an Assistant Speaker for the 54th Parliament. ...4 days ago - Release: Labour calls on Government to give visas to Kiwis’ families stuck in Gaza
Labour’s immigration spokesperson Phil Twyford is calling on the Government to follow the example of Australia and help New Zealanders’ close family members stuck in Gaza to escape and take shelter here. ...6 days ago - Now, more than ever, we must whakamana Te Tiriti o WaitangiThe Green Party is urging the Government to recognise its commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi so our tamariki and mokopuna can grow up in an Aotearoa where their language is celebrated, their health is prioritised, and their whenua is protected. ...6 days ago
- Release: Labour team ready to take on the coalition of chaosLabour’s strong line-up for the 54th Parliament brings experience and energy to the job of Opposition. ...2 weeks ago
- The future of Aotearoa is at stakeThe next 100 days will be a fight for our future. ...2 weeks ago
- Māori will die to fund tax cutsBy scrapping Aotearoa’s world-leading smokefree laws, this government is sacrificing Māori lives to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Not only is this plan revolting, but it doesn’t add up. Treasury has estimated that the reversal of smokefree laws to pay for tax cuts will cost our health system $5.25bn, ...2 weeks ago
- Release: National’s fiscal plans dealt another blowFigures showing National needs to find another $900 million for landlords highlights the mess this coalition Government is in less than a week into the job. ...2 weeks ago
- Green Party unveils portfolio spokespeople for the 54th ParliamentThe Green Party is pleased to announce the allocation of portfolios across its largest caucus ever. ...2 weeks ago
- The Time is Now for Oceans ProtectionCommunity organisations, mana whenua and the Greens have written to the incoming Minister of Oceans and Fisheries to call for the progression without delay of the Hauraki Gulf/Tīkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Greenpeace nitrates research proves need for strong freshwater regulationThe Green Party is welcoming the release of an interactive map which enables people to monitor nitrate levels in their drinking water. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Chris Hipkins congratulates Christopher Luxon"On behalf of the Labour Party I would like to congratulate Christopher Luxon on his appointment as Prime Minister,” Labour Party Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...2 weeks ago
- Greens launch petition to save oil and gas banThe Green Party has launched a petition to save the ban on oil and gas exploration. ...2 weeks ago
- Luxon’s Government will whitewash AotearoaNZ First has gotten their wish to ‘take our country back’ to the 1800s with a policy program that will white-wash Aotearoa and erase tangata whenua rights. By disestablishing the Māori Health Authority this Government has condemned Māori to die seven years earlier than Pākehā. By removing Treaty obligations from ...2 weeks ago
- Green Party a strong opposition to divisive governmentThe Green Party will keep up the fight for an Aotearoa that works for everyone. ...2 weeks ago
- Ministers visit Hawke’s Bay to grasp recovery needs
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon joined Cyclone Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell and Transport and Local Government Minister Simeon Brown, to meet leaders of cyclone and flood-affected regions in the Hawke’s Bay. The visit reinforced the coalition Government’s commitment to support the region and better understand its ongoing requirements, Mr Mitchell says. ...3 days ago - New Zealand condemns malicious cyber activityNew Zealand has joined the UK and other partners in condemning malicious cyber activity conducted by the Russian Government, Minister Responsible for the Government Communications Security Bureau Judith Collins says. The statement follows the UK’s attribution today of malicious cyber activity impacting its domestic democratic institutions and processes, as well ...3 days ago
- Disestablishment of Te Pūkenga beginsThe Government has begun the process of disestablishing Te Pūkenga as part of its 100-day plan, Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills Penny Simmonds says. “I have started putting that plan into action and have met with the chair and chief Executive of Te Pūkenga to advise them of my ...4 days ago
- Climate Change Minister to attend COP28 in DubaiClimate Change Minister Simon Watts will be leaving for Dubai today to attend COP28, the 28th annual UN climate summit, this week. Simon Watts says he will push for accelerated action towards the goals of the Paris Agreement, deliver New Zealand’s national statement and connect with partner countries, private sector leaders ...4 days ago
- New Zealand to host 2024 Pacific defence meetingDefence Minister Judith Collins yesterday announced New Zealand will host next year’s South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting (SPDMM). “Having just returned from this year’s meeting in Nouméa, I witnessed first-hand the value of meeting with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security and defence matters. I welcome the opportunity to ...4 days ago
- Study shows need to remove distractions in classThe Government is committed to lifting school achievement in the basics and that starts with removing distractions so young people can focus on their learning, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. The 2022 PISA results released this week found that Kiwi kids ranked 5th in the world for being distracted ...4 days ago
- Minister sets expectations of CommissionerToday I met with Police Commissioner Andrew Coster to set out my expectations, which he has agreed to, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. Under section 16(1) of the Policing Act 2008, the Minister can expect the Police Commissioner to deliver on the Government’s direction and priorities, as now outlined in ...5 days ago
- New Zealand needs a strong and stable ETSNew Zealand needs a strong and stable Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) that is well placed for the future, after emission units failed to sell for the fourth and final auction of the year, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. At today’s auction, 15 million New Zealand units (NZUs) – each ...5 days ago
- PISA results show urgent need to teach the basicsWith 2022 PISA results showing a decline in achievement, Education Minister Erica Stanford is confident that the Coalition Government’s 100-day plan for education will improve outcomes for Kiwi kids. The 2022 PISA results show a significant decline in the performance of 15-year-old students in maths compared to 2018 and confirms ...6 days ago
- Collins leaves for Pacific defence meetingDefence Minister Judith Collins today departed for New Caledonia to attend the 8th annual South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting (SPDMM). “This meeting is an excellent opportunity to meet face-to-face with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security matters and to demonstrate our ongoing commitment to the Pacific,” Judith Collins says. ...7 days ago
- Working for Families gets cost of living boostPutting more money in the pockets of hard-working families is a priority of this Coalition Government, starting with an increase to Working for Families, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. “We are starting our 100-day plan with a laser focus on bringing down the cost of living, because that is what ...7 days ago
- Post-Cabinet press conferenceMost weeks, following Cabinet, the Prime Minister holds a press conference for members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery. This page contains the transcripts from those press conferences, which are supplied by Hansard to the Office of the Prime Minister. It is important to note that the transcripts have not been edited ...7 days ago
- Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme scrappedThe Government has axed the $16 billion Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme championed by the previous government, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says. “This hugely wasteful project was pouring money down the drain at a time when we need to be reining in spending and focussing on rebuilding the economy and ...1 week ago
- NZ welcomes further pause in fighting in GazaNew Zealand welcomes the further one-day extension of the pause in fighting, which will allow the delivery of more urgently-needed humanitarian aid into Gaza and the release of more hostages, Foreign Minister Winston Peters said. “The human cost of the conflict is horrific, and New Zealand wants to see the violence ...1 week ago
- Condolences on passing of Henry KissingerForeign Minister Winston Peters today expressed on behalf of the New Zealand Government his condolences to the family of former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who has passed away at the age of 100 at his home in Connecticut. “While opinions on his legacy are varied, Secretary Kissinger was ...1 week ago
- Backing our kids to learn the basicsEvery child deserves a world-leading education, and the Coalition Government is making that a priority as part of its 100-day plan. Education Minister Erica Stanford says that will start with banning cellphone use at school and ensuring all primary students spend one hour on reading, writing, and maths each day. ...1 week ago
- US Business Summit Speech – Regional stability through tradeI would like to begin by echoing the Prime Minister’s thanks to the organisers of this Summit, Fran O’Sullivan and the Auckland Business Chamber. I want to also acknowledge the many leading exporters, sector representatives, diplomats, and other leaders we have joining us in the room. In particular, I would like ...2 weeks ago
- Keynote Address to the United States Business Summit, AucklandGood morning. Thank you, Rosemary, for your warm introduction, and to Fran and Simon for this opportunity to make some brief comments about New Zealand’s relationship with the United States. This is also a chance to acknowledge my colleague, Minister for Trade Todd McClay, Ambassador Tom Udall, Secretary of Foreign ...2 weeks ago
- India New Zealand Business Council Speech, India as a Strategic PriorityGood morning, tēnā koutou and namaskar. Many thanks, Michael, for your warm welcome. I would like to acknowledge the work of the India New Zealand Business Council in facilitating today’s event and for the Council’s broader work in supporting a coordinated approach for lifting New Zealand-India relations. I want to also ...2 weeks ago
- Coalition Government unveils 100-day planPrime Minister Christopher Luxon has laid out the Coalition Government’s plan for its first 100 days from today. “The last few years have been incredibly tough for so many New Zealanders. People have put their trust in National, ACT and NZ First to steer them towards a better, more prosperous ...2 weeks ago
- New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade AgreementA significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...3 weeks ago
- Walking and talking: The Waitakere hīkoi teaching locals about the place they live
A West Auckland iwi is sharing its stories with other Waitakere community members through a unique programme of guided walks. At the meeting point of the Whau awa and Te Waitematā in Waitakere sits Harbourview Park, a taonga of te taiao near the heart of our nation’s biggest city. ...49 mins ago - Digital ID will go mainstream across Australia in 2024. Here’s how it can work for everyone
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Edward Santow, Professor & Co-Director, Human Technology Institute, University of Technology Sydney Simon Lee / Unsplash In a world promising self-driving cars and artificial general intelligence, the prospect of a new form of digital identity verification can feel … less ...2 hours ago - If Ryanair’s social media jumped off a cliff, would yours jump too?The budget airline’s famously sassy tweets and TikToks have commanded millions of eyeballs, and spawned almost as many imitators. What does the brand’s former head of social make of them all? “When you try to be something you’re not, the users can smell bullshit a mile away.” Very calmly and ...2 hours ago
- Prime Minister Christopher Luxon: High net migration not sustainable for New Zealand
New Zealand's 118,000 net migration gain in a year is unsustainable, and infrastructure needs to be better managed to support growth, says Prime Minister Christopher Luxon. ...3 hours ago - Transporting New Zealand Outlines Road Freight Priorities
Road freight peak body Ia Ara Aotearoa Transporting New Zealand has released its industry briefing to the Minister of Transport Simeon Brown, including setting out eight actions that would provide practical support and reassurance to the freight ...3 hours ago - Greenpeace billboard labels government 'climate extremists' over oil and gas exploration p...Anyone promoting more fossil fuel use in the midst of a climate crisis deserves to be called out as "extremist", Greenpeace says. ...3 hours ago
- What’s your money doing in Palestine?Your KiwiSaver could be helping to fuel the cycle of violence. Barry Coates, CEO of responsible investing charity Mindful Money, explains how to check. The images of dead and injured civilians pulled from the wreckage in Gaza is tragic. But what is even more tragic is that the atrocities committed ...4 hours ago
- Opinion: Will Our New Government Take The Chance To Fix Accessibility Bill?By Peter Reynolds, New Zealand Disability Support Network CEO I’m holding my breath - hoping for better Accessibility legislation that delivers world class support for all disabled New Zealanders. There’s work to do before we get there. Earlier this ...4 hours ago
- The Geminids: the year’s best meteor shower is upon us. And this one will be a true spectacleSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Shutterstock As an astronomer and meteor enthusiast, I’d say it’s the most wonderful time of the year. Each December sees the return of the Geminid meteor shower – the best natural fireworks ...5 hours ago
- Israel-Hamas war: What is Zionism? A history of the political movement that created Israel as we kno...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Thomas, Lecturer in Middle East Studies, Deakin University Shutterstock As the Israel-Hamas war continues, there’s been a lot of discussion around Zionism. Put simply, Zionism is a nationalist movement that advocates for a homeland for the Jewish people in ...5 hours ago
- I’m trying to lose weight and eat healthily. Why do I feel so hungry all the time? What can I do a...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nick Fuller, Charles Perkins Centre Research Program Leader, University of Sydney Benjamin Franklin, one of the founding fathers of the United States, famously said nothing is certain except death and taxes. But I think we can include “you’ll feel hungry when you’re ...5 hours ago
- Australia has one of the weakest tax systems for redistribution among industrial nations – the Sta...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jim Stanford, Economist and Director, Centre for Future Work, Australia Institute; Honorary Professor of Political Economy, University of Sydney Shutterstock One of the chief purposes of government payments and taxes is to redistribute income, which is why tax rates are ...5 hours ago
- How an underwater sculpture trail plays a role in the health – and beauty – of the Great Barrier...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adam Smith, Adjunct Associate Professor, James Cook University The widespread demise of coral reefs due to climate change is now a certainty. But what role does art have in our future for coral reefs? Art is about feelings. One of the ...5 hours ago
- Workplace Relations Minister Brooke van Velden 'less certain' of good relationship with un...The new Workplace Relations and Safety Minister has a busy two weeks ahead, with promises to axe Fair Pay Agreements and start work to reinstate 90-day trials before the summer break. ...5 hours ago
- 2024 will be make or break for New Zealand infrastructureRoads, pipes, houses, hospitals: our infrastructure challenges are overwhelming in their size and scale. Will the government’s new approach make any difference, asks Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. A challenge of ...5 hours ago
- Sliding backwards on human rights
This week marks the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But is the agreement New Zealand signed up to at the UN so long ago still relevant? And are assumptions that we’re doing just fine in this area starting to look a little smug? Today on ...7 hours ago - Workplace Relations Minister 'less certain' of good relationship with unionsThe new Workplace Relations and Safety minister has a busy two weeks ahead, with promises to axe Fair Pay Agreements and start work to reinstate 90-day trials before the summer break. ...7 hours ago
- Xmas: the best nonfiction of 2023New Zealand nonfiction in 2023 went in pursuit of worthy subjects – Māori health, white privilege, law and order, the foaming mad of the alt-right – but lacked the personal touch. In contrast with the blazing artistry and honesty of Charlotte Grimshaw’s memoir The Mirror Book (2021) and Noelle ...7 hours ago
- Winston Peters’ rabbit hole problemClaims by a Whatu Ora staffer have attracted the attention of conspiracy groups in NZ and around the world. And they’re demanding attention from someone they thought was on their side. They didn’t all love him. This was the guy, after all, who stood in lockstep with their bete noire, ...8 hours ago
- Leaders go round in a circle at climate summitSigns of weaker language on the phase-out of fossil fuels emerged yesterday as the United Nations’ COP28 climate summit delegates prepared for the final few days of talks. To that end, Sultan Al Jaber, the United Arab Emirates’ chair of the negotiations, convened a majlis – a gathering of elders ...8 hours ago
- Defence Force boosts sexual assault response after ‘serious’ staff auditFormer Navy engineer welcomes reinforcement of armed forces' Sexual Assault Response team, in the hope her daughters' generation won't suffer what she did. The post Defence Force boosts sexual assault response after ‘serious’ staff audit appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Beyond Xero: Is Wellington ready to take on the fintech world?Seventeen years after Xero launched in a one-bedroom apartment on Willis St, the next generation of Wellington financial startups is ready to go big. Will the capital take advantage? In 2006, Rod Drury and Hamish Edwards started a little company in a one-bedroom apartment on Willis St with the janky ...8 hours ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Monday 11 DecemberLoading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[quiz],DIV[quiz],A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Monday 11 December appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Mackenzie solar farm stoush heads to courtApplicants for an 88MW solar array in the Mackenzie Basin says the site's biodiversity values are 'vastly overstated' The post Mackenzie solar farm stoush heads to court appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Strong and stable pay for all – not just for politiciansIf a market is structured so a race to the bottom is encouraged, then businesses will start racing there The post Strong and stable pay for all – not just for politicians appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Daily crossword, Monday 11 DecemberThe post Daily crossword, Monday 11 December appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Surging migration expected to lift economic outputNet migration of 120,000 in 2023 has helped to grow population by 2.7% and supported higher output and demand The post Surging migration expected to lift economic output appeared first on Newsroom. ...8 hours ago
- Government to toughen scrutiny of international students as it slashes net migration over two yearsSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Australia’s net-overseas migration levels will be cut dramatically over two years to bring the country’s exploding intake back to sustainable numbers. In estimates to be released on Monday, net-overseas migration will be 375,000 this ...12 hours ago
- Another march on the cards if new government lets Ngāpuhi down – Hinerangi Cooper-PuruDame Whina Cooper's daughter says her mum would have urged Ngāpuhi to never give up the struggle for justice. ...14 hours ago
- With Annastacia Palaszczuk gone, can Labor achieve the unachievable in Queensland?Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Paul Williams, Associate Professor, Griffith University, Griffith University Democracies are, by nature, systems of stability and change. But, north of the Tweed River, Queensland politics is very much about stability, and only a little about change. Where, for example, New South Wales ...17 hours ago
- Environmental Defence Society releases its Briefings for Incoming MinistersEDS has today released its Briefings for Incoming Ministers in the new Coalition Government. The BIMs cover the following portfolio areas and Ministers: Hon Penny Simmonds, Minister for the Environment Hon Chris Bishop, Minister for Resource Management ...23 hours ago
- Tobacco researcher: New Zealand's reputation 'now pretty tarnished' amongst scientist...A public health academic says New Zealand's rowback on smokefree legislation is "very embarrassing" and has tarnished our reputation. ...1 day ago
- Why does some popcorn not pop?Popcorn has one job. So what happens when it fails? Charlotte Muru-Lanning reports from the stovetop. This is an excerpt from our weekly food newsletter, The Boil Up. There’s nothing quite like the lively ceremony of making stovetop popcorn. First there’s the clattering of those amber-coloured kernels into the pot. Hopefully within minutes, there’s the first hollow pop. Then, ...1 day ago
- In-between kids: The volunteering experience that inspired Before GeorgeDeborah Robertson on what inspired her to write her new novel, and to set it in 1953 – the year of the Tangiwai disaster. A group of six girls in purple T-shirts are sitting on a log. Well, not really a log. It’s an equestrian hurdle that has been carved ...1 day ago
- Coaster calls for Government to plug stopbanksA Harihari dairy farmer whose land was flooded when a stopbank failed this year says river protection on the West Coast has become unaffordable and the Government should urgently restore subsidies for the work. Andy Campbell lost the use of 100ha when the Wanganui River breached a stopbank last ...1 day ago
- We’re going on a bat huntIn rural South Auckland, a team of conservationists head out on a nocturnal mission to track down Aotearoa’s only native land mammal. Asia Martusia King tags along. The bat hunt begins as usual: with Vengaboys. A group of scientists sits somberly around a table in a rural South Auckland paddock, ...1 day ago
- The Sunday Essay: Is there an age when you can no longer dance?How I faced the limitations of dancing into the ‘sunset years’ of my life. The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand. Illustrations by kūkū. “To choose to be a dancer is a lovely act of defiance” – Daniel Nagrin, How to Dance Forever ...1 day ago
- Ngāpuhi hapū gather to receive Tribunal report on Treaty grievancesA landmark Waitangi Tribunal report into injustices suffered by Ngāpuhi will strengthen the iwi's case as it looks to restart its stalled Treaty settlement negotiations, a hapū leader says. ...2 days ago
- ‘We’re legit filmmakers’: The story behind Viva La Dirt League’s epic new studioIn just 18 months, the Auckland-based YouTube channel has gone from working from home and out of cafes to a brand new multi-million dollar studio. Sam Brooks asks the trio how they pulled it off, and what they’re planning to do with it. On December 4, a video called “The ...2 days ago
- Focus on Politics: Māori dissent sets the scene as Parliament returnsThe resumption of Parliament this week has been underlined by outcry from Māori, soon matched by fury within the debating chamber. ...2 days ago
- ‘Childish, immature, disgusting’: Why TV viewers are mad at Anika Moa this timeThe Anika Moa Unleashed host unleashes her thoughts on After the Party, Paul Holmes, The Walking Dead, stalking celebrities and more. Anika Moa has a proud history of angering strangers online, whether it’s due to her tattoos, her love life, or something else entirely. When she sits down with The ...2 days ago
- Rod Oram: Words, crowds and Kiwis at global climate summitSearching widely for ways to overcome deep opposition by fossil fuel nations to a phase-out of their products, the President of COP28 enlisted an ally while negotiators sought subtler language yesterday. “We have been asked by the UAE presidency to help find common language that will be acceptable ...2 days ago
- Food writing isn’t really about foodWith a topic so universal, it’s almost always about something bigger. Consider the contents of your fridge. What kinds of fruits and vegetables are in your crisper drawer? How much did that block of cheese set you back? Where did you source most of this kai from? Are there ingredients ...2 days ago
- Long Read: The grief birdYou can read the full story, plus see photographs from Craig McKenzie, in the November-December issue of New Zealand Geographic magazine, or on their website. The bittern’s eerie, booming call sounds like a lament, a tangi ringing across the marshes. Now, the birds themselves are in trouble. ...2 days ago
- Theatrical performance: does music work for surgery?Opinion: You may have been there, waiting your turn, wearing an ill-fitting hospital gown, surrounded by a flurry of staff, the smell of disinfectant in the air. If you’ve ever undergone surgery, you probably know the nervous, stress-laden pre-op feeling. What may come as a surprise is that ...2 days ago
- Short story: Beautiful Isolation, by Catherine Chidgey1. In the evening and in the night, I sit on the balcony and think of you. I can’t see the water but I know it’s there, soft and slow. We bathed in it that last day, you and I, when the dusk hung heavy as cloth of gold ...2 days ago
- Togs, togs, undies: The story behind NZ’s most iconic summer adAlex Casey unearths the origin story of an New Zealand icon – featuring a surprise cameo from an international comedy megastar. At first glance, the Facebook post from a Waipu cafe reads like any other heartfelt change in ownership announcement. “George and Amber have reflected on their involvement in our ...2 days ago
- Their house, my garden: What to do when your plant is boltingThis week on Their house, my garden, why my spinach plant has grown suspiciously tall, and how to deal with your own over-eager plants. Beginner gardeners would be forgiven for thinking a plant growing tall is reason to celebrate. We are, after all, the kind of species who mark door ...2 days ago
- Government rocked by second leak in five days, ministers suspend analysis of repeal proposalsThe new government has been rocked by the leaking of another confidential paper to the New Zealand Herald - the second to spill in just five days. ...3 days ago
- 'He gets it' – Christopher Luxon impresses locals on first visit to cyclone-battered...Luxon drove the crumbling SH2 with a handful of MPs on Friday morning to reach the small town, gauge progress of its recovery, and learn what it needs from the new government. ...3 days ago
- Israel’s AI can produce 100 bombing targets a day in Gaza. Is this the future of war?Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bianca Baggiarini, Lecturer, Australian National University Last week, reports emerged that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are using an artificial intelligence (AI) system called Habsora (Hebrew for “The Gospel”) to select targets in the war on Hamas in Gaza. The system has ...3 days ago
- Frank and far-reaching: Senate report recommends shake-up of the way freedom of information is handl...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Johan Lidberg, Associate Professor, School of Media, Film and Journalism, Monash University The most significant recommendation in the Senate inquiry report on the functionality of the Commonwealth FOI system is this: move the federal Freedom of Information (FOI) function from the Office ...3 days ago
- Week in Politics: New government survives first Question TimeAnalysis: The government was under attack on multiple fronts during a week of relentless criticism and then faced its first Question Time in Parliament, Peter Wilson writes. ...3 days ago
- This is the endWell, it’s 4.30pm on a Friday which feels as appropriate time as ever to say goodbye. The Spinoff’s live updates have come to an end, almost four years after they were first switched on. If you missed my explainer this morning of what’s going on, here it is. In short: ...3 days ago
- Taken together, the NDIS review and the royal commission recommendations could transform disability ...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Di Winkler, Adjunct Associate Professor, La Trobe University Shutterstock A home – in the physical and emotional sense – is foundational to living an ordinary life with a feeling of inclusion. National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) participants with the highest ...3 days ago
- Fire ants are on the march. Here’s what happens when they stingSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Darren Roberts, Conjoint Associate Professor in clinical pharmacology and toxicology, St Vincent’s Healthcare Clinical Campus, UNSW Sydney Veronika Kunitsyna/Shutterstock Red imported fire ants are a particularly nasty type of ant because they are aggressive, and inflict painful stings that may ...3 days ago
- Watch: Luxon on Hawke's Bay cyclone recovery: 'We don't want to turn all that upside ...Christopher Luxon says the new government is going to continue everything that the previous one put into place to help with the recovery from Cyclone Gabrielle. ...3 days ago
- Waka Kotahi to use its English name first after pressure from governmentWaka Kotahi will begin referring to itself using its English name first after pressure from parties in the coalition government. ...3 days ago
- Investigation into alleged vaccine data breach ongoingTe Whatu Ora is continuing to investigate after a data breach that saw vaccine-related information shared online last week. The agency is liaising with the Privacy Commissioner and said it will make “any appropriate notifications” if individuals were impacted by the breach. “Alongside the work to identify the material allegedly ...3 days ago
- Watch – Christopher Luxon visits Hawke's Bay to see cyclone recovery progressLive - Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has been in Wairoa this morning to gauge progress of the town's recovery from Cyclone Gabrielle. Watch a media conference with him here. ...3 days ago
- XYZZY is a buzzy good time at the StardomeSam Brooks reviews a new immersive film experience at Auckland’s planetarium. Journalists get invited to review things all the time. Books, films, shows, exhibitions, all of it. I say yes to a lot of them and “no, sorry” to a bit more. Very rarely do I go, “Absolutely I need ...3 days ago
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The alarm and solutions to the CV outbreak came from experts in complexity theory,it is still necessary to listen to them.
https://www.endcoronavirus.org/
Our top recommendations for governments:
1. National Lockdown
In much of Europe and North America, the explosive growth of COVID-19 means that a 4-6 week strong lockdown is necessary to stop the outbreak. Such lockdowns may be politically difficult to implement, and they always entail significant short-term economic and social costs. But their effects are dramatic, and their duration is short. Two months after China imposed its lockdown, China has virtually eliminated local transmission of COVID-19. Wuhan is now safer than London or New York, and China’s economy is on the path to recovery. Without China’s strict lockdown, the economic harm to China from COVID-19 would have been orders of magnitude greater.
During a strong lockdown, regions which are less affected by the virus can help provide resources to those in need. The lockdown also gives time to dramatically scale up the supply of COVID-19 test kits and capacity to process them. If the number of infections is dramatically reduced using the lockdown and a massive testing regime is initiated, COVID-19 can be controlled after five weeks without extreme social distancing measures. A strong lockdown would minimize both the harm to individuals, as well as the economy.
There's a lot of commentary flying around about perceived inadequacies in our testing regime here.
I'm sure the actual experts have a handle on it, but one metric this armchair epidemiologist can easily pull is the ratio of tests performed to cases. By that metric we've tested a lot, and we started quite early in our epidemic.
NZ 35:1 (950 cases, 33,116 tests, 6867 tests per M population)
Oz 50:1 (5550 cases, 285,675 tests, 11,203 tests per M)
South Korea 45:1 (10,156 cases, 455,032 tests, 8,875 tests per M)
US 5:1 (306,854 cases, 1,570,108 tests, 4,743 tests per M)
Spain 2.5:1 (124,870 cases, 355,000 tests, 7593 tests per M)
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
I've been moderately impressed on the way that they've actually been able to scale up. It will always be lumpy because on one side you have public calls like test, test, test.
On the other side you have test centres that have a limited and uneven ability to increase capacity. They are scattered all across a large area country with limited travel and freight. To scale they require equipment that comes from warehouses that have limited stock and competing demands. And you also require to get reasonably skilled staff who unevenly distributed.
I haven't seen anything on how they've been doing it. But to go from a nominal 1500 capacity to a nominal 6000 in two weeks is more akin to a miracle than most people probably realize. You only have to look at the amount of time it took to setup the original testing system to realise how long these things can take.
I'm just hoping that they aren't overstressing their staff because we will need them for quite a while.
The rant about the economic harm is coming thick and fast, they know a very good job by all concerned to halt this virus is seen by most NZrs, so they are gearing up hit the Govt on economic issues
I hope this is boredom and not political strategy.
I just applied Hanlon's razor.
Generally I find that it gives a better explanation for our dilettante mouth pieces around the media than malevolence.
If I start to consider something to be deliberately malevolent then my reactions tend to be somewhat more focused. Less on scratching the tick and more focused on eradication – like whaleoil or lauda finem.
Even the government is letting out noises along these lines, couched in caution, but it must just feed the right wingers champing at the bit for anything to support an easing up of things. I don't think the government at this stage should be so forthcoming with such messages, not right now.
Good to see the briefing just now is more measured.
Lprent,
Calm down. People are allowed to have views that don't agree with yours.
They should have some basis on fact, However.
Although Iprent expressed it in his own way, he is right about the foolishness.
The stuff from right wing inclined shock jocks is totally irresponsible.
I am aware that people have views different to mine. Hell I have bill’s post that I completely disagree with on my server. That doesn't mean I can't express my views about their views as well. So I do. Why do you have a problem with that?
I actually use facts in my posts. Bloody hard to find those when you read David Farrar or Plunket or whats her name eh? The only point that I could see to their posts was that they were bored.
But please entertain me – in the points I raised on Farrar's testing post – wht possible justification could you make to support that piece of false fact fatuous trash? That was just outright irresponsibility.
I don't have a problem with you having a different view. It was your approach, with a quite bit of abuse thrown in ("wilfully stupid partisan idiot") that nothing DPF or Plunket have to say has any sense. I suppose it was the sense of entitlement of "I am smart, they are dumb" that annoyed me.
Both DPF and Plunket are smart people. In fact DPF has been pretty supportive of the great majority of the government measures. Him having a flick at David Clark was pretty reasonable in the circumstances. It didn't call for the level of abuse that you heaped on him.
Both DPF and Plunket are smart people.
????!!!????
I've counseled Wayne before that he is now released from the yoke of Cabinet irresponsibility and is therefore free to stop telling lies. Obviously he's mentally still in what the likes of another habitual liar, Matthew Hooton, calls "the Beltway."
I couldn’t see any real sense in the 4 posts / articles I referenced. What I saw was a group of people looking to grab a scalp at any cost.
Smart isn’t the same as intelligent or knowledgeable or appropriate. Someone could be smart by doing something the removes a minister based on some kind of insane moral stance, but complete stupid removing the head of a crucial ministry at a crucial time with the consequent issues that fall out of the coordination.
If you read the historical material on what happened in the 1918 epidemic in NZ with key figure removal – you’ll find some particularly useful examples on how ‘smart’ that is. I read them up at the War Memorial Museum decades ago. It was a sobering experience. Mind you reading about generals who ‘won’ their battles and lost their wars was in the same mould.
I’m not ‘smart’ and I tend to be mildly irritated by those who are. They have a tendency to take idiotic shortcuts that I wind up having to fix up at some point. I’m surrounded by smarter people than me all of the time. My skill is to be knowledgeable about systems in general and the number of ways that systems can screw up. That is after all my underlying profession I get employed for – even if it is current expressed as code and radio frequencies.
But I notice that you haven’t noted anything in my post that was incorrect apart from, effectively, my ‘tone’. Is there anything substantive that you have a problem with?
Both DPF and Plunket are smart people.
That makes their playing "gotcha" for shits and giggles in this case all the more reprehensible. And it makes DPF's propaganda against the people running our testing laboratories a despicable act that should see him getting called way worse than lprent has.
He may be confusing smart and smartarse.
It's difficult to conceive a level of abuse of the malign gnome that would be undeservedly high.
What a great well reasoned answer Wayne.
Any thing to say of substance?
Maybe you might enjoy:
http://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978u
[You have used 6 different user names in 17 comments. Pick one user name and stick with it, thanks – Incognito]
See my Moderation note @ 12:38 PM.
C'mon Wayne, its just lprent's style which admittedly is more robust than most. 👿
I have had my meeting style described at least once as 'blunt force trauma' (and blogs are pretty much meeting places). Meetings with me are usually short as I like working on whatever the current project is rather than talking.
I'm only interested in processes and results. I tend to find that expressing what I mean clearly gets those as clear as possible as fast as possible. If it offends some peoples sense of dignity, then I'm reasonably confident it usually won't be fatal. I'm also sure that progress will be faster next time.
But what else do you expect from ex-production manager turned programmer (with a accidental sideline in blogging).
I thought it was a strong post and despite the subtle language and nuance, you managed to get the message across.
Yeah right 😈
as an aside, have you seen what's happened to the Replies list? Haven't seen it do that for a long time.
Today, I’m Anne.
I'm lprent. Quite chuffed about the promotion.
We have a Winner!!
Ah damn – I was testing out the object caching that is claimed to be fixed. I'll turn it off again.
I thought Lynn's style was rather restrained all things considered.
Yeah, he’s mellowed and is kinder, in general.
Just in case I have been taken the wrong way – its happened before – my comment was in jest.
I actually like lprent's style because there is little ambiguity and he's non-partisan. I've been on the receiving end once or twice. The moral of the story? Don't say anything too silly when lprent is around.
He’s always around, like a Big Brother watching you.
You're not aware of how ridiculous that sounds, are you?
The best possible outcome is that the NZ government is accused of over-reacting because not enough people get sick and die.
It's idiotic, but I wouldn't want to be in the experimental group where the government's measures are proved right by implementing the alternative.
🙂 exactly.
The 20:20 hindsight crowd can get screwed by a fence post for all I care about their opinions. I keep looking at New York or Ecuador for the alternative and not liking it.
That's a key message right there that the money pricks need to have shoved down their throats.
It's a bit unfair to criticise Sean Plunket for being an idiot. It's simply a career choice which he continues to practise. At least credit him with mastery.
David Farrar? The same.
Full marks to Jacinda and her team: I thought she got the balance absolutely right when she said at her presser today something along these lines – we can either have a health system or an economy. If we come out of level 4 too soon we'll have neither.
Contrast with Trump – we can't let the cure be worse than the problem. 'Merica's fucked!
100%
Propagandists like DPF will have it both ways: if the government's approach fails (ie we get a swamped health system and many deaths), they'll rail against government incompetence in not closing the borders early enough, not forcibly quarantining people etc; and if the government's approach is a success (ie health system copes OK, few deaths), they'll rail against government incompetence for subjecting us to lock-down and wrecking the economy in a big fuss over nothing. Basically their writings on the subject are malicious in intent and should be seen as such.
+ 1
+1
+ another 1. Hostile propagandists.
I visit Kiwiblog as well as TheStandard and disagree with your opinion.
While the author is clearly to the right in terms of NZs political spectrum he has been generally supportive of the lockdown and the government's actions, I recall he's on record as wanting Level 4 while we were at Level 2 so he's sadly going to be able to take the position you posit.
Yep. Level 4, but butchers. That's PDF's position.
+1
reply to Psycho Milt +1
I'm confused why you think it's so hard to replace a minister at this time. The role of associate ministers are there for just that reason. Also what happens if a minister goes down with the virus – are you saying we can't replace them? The system should have more flexibility to cope with the unexpected, and incopentance. I know we all got use to incopentance under the last government – that's no excuse to tolerate it in this one.
Please note: I have issues with Clark and the MoH on the treatment of disabled in this crisis – which in my humble opinion – has been utter crap. So if the minister I have a bone to pick with, makes a mistake somewhere else – I'm more than happy to have a go, and add it to the list of fubar's by a minister.
The government has done the right thing keeping us at lvl 4 and the longer the better I say. I can see us going out, and back into lvl 4 over the next couple of years. This virus is not going to go away quickly if the SARS outbreak of 2002-2004 is a guide. It has all the hallmarks of not being a quick fix.
I do wonder if the call to go back to work is not fear speaking at a sociological level. A type of hysteria to prove everything is not that bad, and if we only got back to acting 'normal', then everything will be OK.
I do wonder if the call for Clark to be stripped of his ministerial responsibility for the health 'portfolio' is not fear speaking at a sociological level. A type of hysteria to prove everything is not that bad, and if we only got back to acting 'normal' (calling for ministerial 'heads' to roll over inconsequential mistakes), then everything will be OK.
Continuing to give Clark's mountain bike ride 'air' might result in very slight harm – just imagine the harm done if ‘we’ had remained unaware!
If the health minister goes for a mountain bike ride during a level 4 lockdown, and there's no-one there to witness it, does it really matter? Tick tock…
As adam mentioned, there are those for whom Clark has long been considered a liability and that he shouldn't have the job. The reasons for that are valid. I disagree with removing Clark over the bike thing, and also disagree that replacing a Minister is an easy/light thing, but that's different from whether Clark should be Minister at all (I don't have an opinion about that).
Weka, I agree with almost everything you just wrote, and like you I don't have an opinion on whether Clark should be Minister at all.
I agree with adam that relieving Clark of his ministerial portfolio immediately would be easy to do, but have doubts that it would be wise under the circumstances.
Yep, that's where I'm at too.
Your tribalism is showing Drowsy M. Kram.
I took the bike fuck up, as a chance to remove dead wood. But if you want to support a minister whose actions have put many disabled people in – at best – risky situations, at worst – effectively issued a death sentence. So feel free to miss my point.
But get this – politics is harsh taskmaster and when disabled people die on Clark's watch. I will not be calling for his firing. I'll be calling for his arrest and imprisonment.
I don't think Clark's wankery is anything like the threat that would come from the following thinking catching hold here Adam.
Andrew Cannon is the CE at Voyage Care – supporting adults with physical and learning disabilities, brain injuries and autism.
Yes bill.
And here in Godzone just the other day we had everyone's favourite Uncle Ashley stating categorically that it was his understanding that paramedics would not be performing CPR on anyone who had Covid 19.
A hasty near retraction from St. John's…talk about 'reviewing their guidelines.'
Of course, who's to know if the person gasping their last is infected? So one who have to conclude that the Precautionary Principal would apply and none would get CPR.
Your link also led to others…like the aged care facilty residents who suddenly had DNAR forms attached to their files.
We have all absorbed the not so subtle messaging about 'triage', and doctors having to make 'difficult decisions' about who gets the ventilator and who gets to grasp their last in a lonely side room.
Already we have doctors standing over a 68 year old with a disabilty and try and scare him into signing a DNR form.
I will never trust a doctor I don't know again.
It's not looking good Bill for the past it and less than perfect.
Not looking good at all.
"Already we have doctors standing over a 68 year old with a disabilty and try and scare him into signing a DNR form."
Was that in NZ?
That happened to my partner last June. I was there. Peter had an alarming episode of syncope which found him in A&E. By the time Dr DNR arrived with his precious form they had found no obvious clinical explanation for the faint. Heart, lungs, blood, brain and cognitive function all normal.
Yet, according to the doctor, CPR would most likely entail breaking his ribs and possibly damaging internal organs, he would get pneumonia and ICU mught not even accept him as s patient.
We had heard of similar happening to other disabled people.
Some doctors and nurses are ok. Peter has had long term relationships with a few.
Others simply don't see you as a life worth living if you have an obvious disability.
And Ardern banging on about kindness ain't going to change that. Folk a lot of the time aren't kind. And it's easier to be unkind to someone who is different.
Here in the margins…
thanks Rosemary. Was that the A and E doctor that was treating Peter, or someone else tasked with presenting DNRs?
Why would ICU not accept him as a patient?
There are a lot of what ifs in that doctor's list 🙁
What does the HDA or commissioner say about being presented with a DNR form in that situation? Or hospital protocols?
Yes. It was the same doctor. The doc who had told Peter there was nothing obviously wrong with him to explain the fainting thing, and the same doc who ran him through the cognitive impairment test. Which Peter passed with flying colours.
When he was trying to get Petervto sign the form after listing all the horribleness that would ensue from performing CPR and over interventions I interjected..and was told by the Good Doctor to butt out. I had suggested that this was something we could discuss at a later date…
Peter negotiated a 15 minute attempt to save his sorry arse should shit get real…but neither of us would expect that would be respected by all doctors.
Weka. Peter and I have spent way too much time in hospitals dealing with non disability related health issues. We have experienced the best and the absolute worst of attitudes towards disabled patients and their loved ones.
We have little trust in the system as a whole because of the lottery…you simply don't know which type of health professional your going to strike on the day.
I would strongly recommend people with disabilities avoid hospitals like the proverbial.
I hear you. It's similar for me, because of other kinds of experiences (not life threatening, but life wrecking if you know what I mean). Trust has to be earned, person by person. NZ is still so naive about health system culture and power dynamics.
Seems like a conflict of interest for the treating doctor to be presenting a DNR form in that situation. I'd expect a third party to do it, where the patient's rights are clearly centred.
I can forgive myself wondering if Clark (or much of the rest of the government) are actually calling the shots at the moment. Or put another way, I wonder if it might be the case John Ombler (All of Government Controller) and the teams built around him are the ones calling the actual shots, with NZs elected representatives relegated to a supporting role that provides the political legitimacy that's necessary to "sell the programme".
About a week back I tried to find info on John Ombler. All I know is that he's a very long serving and high ranking civil servant – a mandarin.
As to who appointed him, a description of his job title, who he accountable to, what his powers are, or who's accountable to him – I can find precisely zip, zilch and nada.
If it's the case that important facets of governance have been ceded to technocrats, then Clark's role (like others) is more show than substance….superfluous to the real job of governance at this time.
I think you’re on to something there.
Not really.
In regards to Ombler's title, it's sort of a "these are my credentials" situation. The PM authorises it in a time of emergency, so it goes. FWIW, including the state services commission to coordinate all-of-government response alongside DG Health and Civil Defence seems to plug a wee organisational hole in the pandemic response plan. I didn't see much about financial assistance and evaluating how "essential" specific services are last time I read it.
As for the role of ministers, no they're not interchangeable in an expert-led response, because sometimes experts hyperfocus and make basic errors just like all our keen "Monday morning epidemiologists" online. Someone familiar with the situation needs to maintain oversight and recognise when an important tangential factor hasn't been addressed, or see the signs that the experts are gradually getting out of their depth. Not least of all, to also be in a position to see why a recommended action is important without an upteenth briefing on the same topic because the fifth-replacement minister hasn't learned what makes a good diagnostic test unsuitable for mass screening.
Frankly, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between governance and management. Whether that leads to (or merely handily justifies) the idea that ministers are interchangeable, I don't know or even particularly care.
What McFlock said. I was trying to explain the way that our government actually works to my partner last night. I kind of lost her when I started to discuss the make up of the Executive Council and why Civil Defense, the Military, and the Police aren't actually controlled by cabinet.
So can you supply the information around (or a source explaining) who would have appointed him, and a description of his job title, including who he's accountable to, who's accountable to him, and what his powers are?
I'm looking at all this and a part of me is thinking "Christchurch" – when the Labour Party happily endorsed the National Party throwing away democracy (its oversights) and vesting "everything" in NZs own Henry VIII wannabe.
I'm not saying this is the same. But apart from the fact it's not a cabinet minister sitting as the apparent head of things, I'm not really seeing the difference either
He will have been appointed by the Governor General on the advice of the Executive Council.
He will be accountable to the Crown. And specifically to the State Services Commissioner.
Whoever it is will report to a minister, in this case probably the Prime Minister or the Minister in charge of State services.
None of this is anything that I have to look up, it is the case for all senior public servants and part of our constitutional underlying basis.
But what you have to remember is that this isn't a republic – it is a monarchy albeit a representational one.
For his job description, I'd have to look up the legislation and/or whatever was presented to the GG describing limits to whatever is in the Act. But I suspect that it will be in the civil defense act(s) or health act(s). I'm working today, so I won't start digging down for the specific wording.
This spaghetti from the National Security Handbook is the closest I can find to any notion of an All of Government Controller….the term or position simply doesn't pop up in any search of any act or document I've looked at. (Which makes it kinda difficult to find an answer to the questions I have)
New Zealand’s “Coordinated Incident Management System” (CIMS) is a framework of consistent principles, structures, functions, processes and terminology that agencies can apply in an emergency response.It enables agencies to plan for, train and conduct responses in a consistent manner, without being prescriptive.
CIMS relates to the management of a response; the Officials’ Committee for Domestic and External Security Coordination (ODESC) structure sits above this if the situation is significant or complex enough to demand a coordinated strategic response at the national level.
The lead agency under the CIMS framework would also be the lead agency with respect to the ODESC response.
The “Controller” (a formal CIMS designation) should expect to have a role briefing Watch Group (comprised of 'senior officials') and ODESC meetings.
Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC) ( National Security System Directorate [NSS Dirctorate]) will also appoint a liaison officer to manage the interface between the operational response (CIMS) and the strategic response (ODESC).
Looks likely. It is a coordination function.
Yawn – off to bed after I get this upgrade to my mail system complete.
Thank you for that explanation. I confess being quite ignorant about these things 😉
FWIW, I did not have in mind interchangeable ministers, this never occurred to me (was it in Bill’s comment? If so, I should read it again). I was more thinking about David Clark not front footing the press conferences, just as Stuart Nash, for example, is nowhere to be seen.
I hinted at this earlier:
https://thestandard.org.nz/children-the-pandemic-has-only-just-begun/#comment-1698473
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05-04-2020/#comment-1698502
If they're "superfluous", as Bill suggested, they're interchangeable.
The PM fronts up regularly for the policy stuff. The mandarins front up for the actual management of that policy. Everybody keeps things as clear as possible, and there are fewer people to provide mixed messages, and nobody has to screw around with zoom at the media conferences.
The MoH started dedicated covid pages quite early in the piece, and seems to have worked into the govt covid adoption quite well. When the media start pushing tests and masks in detail, with specifics on availability, and any other systemic issues that might crop up there might be more for ministers to actually front up to.
Ah, I see, Bill used “superfluous”. My bad.
Yes, I agree with your comment. If I’m interpreting it correctly, you’re saying that it is about clear delineation of responsibilities and duties (and less about politics, thank God). Nobody wants others to put a spoke in one’s wheels 😉
Especially at the moment. Having a couple more people authoritatively sticking their oar in about what constitutes "allowed out during isolation" would be the icing on a shitcake.
Everyone's basically saying the same thing: "stay home as much as possible and don't be a dick about it". But the edge cases of "can I drive 500m before I start biking? What about 550m?" are tending towards dickishness. But then some cops seem to upping their own dickishness as well.
Superfluous to? Well, that would be the real job of governance at this time – ie, making the decisions and calling the shots. That's not "interchangable" regards their role of securing public confidence in the lock-down. And please also note the note that caveat comes with, aye?
McFlock is simply, and yet again, engaging in bad faith.
But the edge cases of “can I drive 500m before I start biking? What about 550m?” are tending towards dickishness
Hey McFlock. You do understand that Clark wasn't looking to go on a bike ride for exercise, right?
If he had hooked the bike on the back of his van and driven off Opoho because the hill's too steep to cycle up, then fine. I for one would have had no problem with that whatsoever.
His motivation was no different to a surfer driving to the beach for a surf – not exercise, but pleasure. The difference being that "Jo" going surfing isn't up there telling everyone they have to forego a multitude of everythings because there's a crisis needing dealt to.
Oh ffs, Bill, just because I think you're completely wrong to catastorphic levels doesn't mean I'm arguing in bad faith.
If a minister is superfluous to the functioning of government then individual ministers are interchangeable and we can fire and swap them with no impact on government. And your ill-advised demands for Clark to be fired would be fine because acting as a figurehead to maintain public confidence in the lockdown would be his only damned job.
Well, here's a surprise for you: it's not. Even if actual experts are managing the government response, that's simply business as usual for our system of government. Civil servants manage the operations, ministers set the policy boundaries of those operations and determine whether the policies are producing the desired outcomes. That's their primary fucking job. And it's an important one for democracy.
And I don't get why you're incapable of understanding that principle.
I think that bill is getting on to the aristo people in power thing fallacy. That doesn’t apply here particularly. If someone does something stupid, then you look at what they are required to do in their role rather than being a prurient Mrs Grundy.
Which is why I really don’t get this level of righteous moral indignation.
Going biking has absolutely nothing substantive to do with his job any more than (takes an example from the history of this site) Shane Jones wanking in a hotel room does. Both are individual choice, not illegal, a lapse into stupidity, and at best a minor PR faux.
With Shane Jones the issue was that he was using paying for the damn porn with a government credit card. That was a clear breach of his contract and duties as a government employee. That was what got him dropped as a minister. That it was about the 3rd or 4th time that he’d done something monumentally stupid was what led to most of the authors and labour commenters on this site pushing for him to be dumped out of cabinet.
But just calling for a firing because of a minor lapse of judgement. Well my view on that is expected for journalists to do to fill out a dead news day and for mischief makers do because they’re irresponsible dimwits uninterested in good government or anarchists and revolutionaries because they want to break the system to force fundamental shifts. Doesn’t mean that I’m interested in it – nor probably is McFlock.
Oh, and get over the damned bike ride already.
Four out of every five times surfers drive to the beach it's to grovel in small, shitty on/cross-shore chop. Grovelling is an absolute chore but it's key to attaining and maintaining the skill/fitness levels that make surfing pleasurable.
Something wrong with actually trying to do some things for "pleasure" during the lockdown.
I thought the idea of flagellating, wearing hair shirts and praying, to cure plagues, went out in the Middle ages. Apart from Texas and Washington, of course.
As I said further down thread (10.2.2.), if a country's Chief Medical Officer can be stood down "because hypocite" on actions taken around a lock-down, then there's no compelling reason why a cabinet minister involved in the exact same public messaging in the same situation can't be too. Yes?
And again. I've no problem with someone going for a bike ride and have repeatedly said as much, including in comments below my post.
@ Lynn
On Ombler (I can't decipher "the aristo people in power thing fallacy." btw) – are you suggesting there's something wrong with seeking an understanding of how power is arranged and exercised?
Clark was given a police warning for clearly violating explicit terms of the lockdown? No, none of the above, he was just photographed pushing the limits of a couple of gray areas in the NZ lockdown (how far to go for exercise and what exercise types should be undertaken).
🙄
A cabinet minister doing shit that carries the potential to undermine public confidence is a real thing son – just as is the case for a Chief Medical Officer.
If you genuinely view the issue as being about a bike ride, then the actual issue's way beyond you, and you probably need to simply go away and interact with people who agree with you a simple bike ride is a thing worth any to-ing and fro-ing over.
Bill, you're reminding me of a dysfunctional workplace I once had. A few dozen people, most of them incorrigible gossips. Every other month there was some comment about how someone had made a major mistake at work, and they were absolutely going to be fired because of it. Such an offence is unforgivable by any employer!
Some people were stood down. Some people had no visible repercussion whatsoever. The one dude who was fired was kicked out quicker than the gossips had time to distribute the news of his infraction.
Dude fucked up. Not overly essential to the role, and he's getting shit for it anyway. Boss spoke to him, he did a mea culpa, they moved on.
The lockdown hasn't been cancelled because he screwed up. Everyone commenting on it thinks he screwed up. So he hasn't damaged public confidence or whatever the fuck. And his error was significantly and clearly less than that of the Scottish CMO's – therefore his punishment is less.
tl:dr yeah, it pretty much is about mountain biking.
There are apparently good reasons to drive not bike the access and to drive instead.
https://twitter.com/LewSOS/status/1245869149336637441
Pleasure is an important part of exercise (mentally and physiologically). Pleasure is also a crucial aspect of managing mental health and stress. It’s also central to managing the pandemic beyond the moment. I think you're really stretching things here.
Even just looking superficially, there are obvious differences between Clark and the Scottish situation. If we're talking about public perception, then a Minister of Health treading a grey area and then apologising for overstepping, is not a problem because it clarifies the boundary and what is appropriate behaviour.
Blatantly breaking the rules (the Scottish situation) is another matter. If Clark had gone to his bach for the weekend, I would expect more consequences than the bike thing.
It's the same behaviour being indulged in by two people in very similar positions with regards to their relationship to the public and their potential impact on perceptions and wider public behaviours.
The bike has got nothing to to with it. Neither has the holiday home.
It's public figures making demands on the general populace, then disregarding the very same demands they've made of everyone else.
If "Jo Nobody" had driven up to that bike track and gone for a bike ride, I'd have been sympathising with them if they'd got into any trouble as a result – because they aren't public figures making demands on the behaviours and actions of others.
Joe Nobody took the photo. No repercussions whatsoever. Because it wasn't clearly against the rules. Because the extent of the "demands" wasn't clearly applicable to mountain biking at that stage. Unlike the Scottish CMO.
The demands weren't clearly applicable to that situation because the extent of possible harm isn't clear. The rules are in place to limit the extent, speed, and distance of infection spread. The risk from solitary and hazardous activities is to first responders. That is why the rules have since been made more clear.
So there's no clear breach and no demands expected of others but not followed himself. Unlike the Scottish CMO.
Tribal is as tribal does. Where would any of us be if every inconsequential fuck up resulted in the 'removal' of "dead wood"?
I haven't seen anyone say a Minister can't be replaced if necessary. I've also not seen anyone calling for Clark to be fired give a decent explanation of the impact of changing Minister at this time (which should be part of the decision). Without an explanation of that how would we know how hard it is? And I've not seen a decent discussion about who might replace him (also relevant so we don't end up with someone worse at the job).
If we look at the associate ministers:
There is Jenny Salesa who holds 2 ministerial positions already. Minister for Building and Construction and Minister of Ethnic Communities – Not heard any negative comments about her in those roles. She attended the local church for community events regularly when I lived in Onehunga.
The other is Julie Anne Genter, who holds one Ministerial position. Minister for Women. Julie did a good job in taking over from Twyford after his brain fade. Only downside is her young family, but she has proven herself very capable so far. And like Jan Logie, a tad under utilized.
Look the position is in some ways symbolic, and in others it is a harsh roll where no one is ever happy. My issue is simple, that the relationship between disabled and the Ministry is quite bad, and has only got worse with this crisis. In a purely symbolic gesture Clark could have said or done somthing to make the MoH pull it's head out of it's ass. Or in the harsh taskmaster roll, he could have ordered them to do somthing constructive to improve the relationship, or lose their jobs.
I say he needs to be replaced, because he in M.I.A, offers very little in the way of leadership, sparse on the comment front, prone to lapses in judgement, and as such is hardly a minister with his hand on the wheel.
Yep, something needs to be done about the MoH sooner or later and Clark has had his chance. I'm still not convinced now is the time for a change, although it's hard to see when would be given everything going on.
I'm sure Genter would be more than capable. Not sure that Labour can give her the full position given the whole coalition agreement thing, don't know how that works, and they may not want the Greens to have that position of power especially in election year. Otoh, strong L/G leadership would work very well for the left going into the election.
Don't know much about Salesa.
Genter would probably make a hash of it. Public health is essentially a rationing system with an extremely careful hand needed to balance it and the people in it – some with personalities that make Genter’s ego look like a fledgling. Moderation and consensus has not been a notable part of her nature.
It is good training for her in government. But really she is probably better learning there and excelling elsewhere.
But basically, every Minister of Health is widely hated and viewed as being incompetent. It is the nature of the role. I’m not sure that Genter would survive it.
Interesting. Was Helen Clark hated?
Do you mean Genter would be better off out of parliament altogether eventually?
I'm not sure why the MoH is such a hard problem to solve. My impression of the disability sector issues is that as with WINZ, putting the budgeting issues aside for a minute, there are hefty cultural issues. How people get treated matters and there's really no good reason that I can see for either department to keep treating people like shit, other than its entrenched in the culture and we haven't had a Minister willing to do something about it. Some of that will be a hangover of the doctor/nurse knows best attitudes. Maybe Ministers get picked to match that.
An indication of where a Minister's heart and interest lie and where they seek their information is to have a look at their Diaries.
JAG had AssMinHealth disability and was swapped out for Salesa.
If a chief medical officer can be let go their hypocrisy, then I'm sure a mere cabinet minister can be relieved of their portfolio for theirs, no?
Scotland‘s chief medical officer has resigned from the government after breaking coronavirus lockdown rules by visiting her second home.
Dr Catherine Calderwood agreed to step down just hours after “unreservedly” apologising for the trip to Fife and withdrawing from giving public briefings.
She said that she took the decision following a discussion with first minister Nicola Sturgeon, who said that the issue “risks undermining confidence” in the government’s advice.
“I am deeply sorry for my actions and the mistakes I have made,” Dr Calderwood said in a statement.
Or to take what Lynn has written (puzzlingly, given his reaction to commentary) a step further – the children need to simply just leave the room.
Could the children in the room, please take some time to educate themselves and stop being bored and mischievous? This is a serious outbreak – contain your boredom and hobbies until we get over it. Otherwise you’ll just cause serious harm to yourself and others.
I'm sure he's competent enough so perhaps the reason for David Clark's apparent low profile is that he doesn't agree with the policy the government is taking.
Operational independence and avoiding interfering with Ashley?
The most likely scenario and good on him for having the intelligence to recognise it. He is the Minister of Health (known for being the most thankless portfolio of them all) and he is not a medical expert. The Director General of Health is the one who should be front footing the day to day updates to the crisis and he is doing so with flying colours.
Clark’s job was to lock in place the government agreed process to be followed – which he did – and then step back in favour of the medical experts. When the time comes for the gradual move out of lock-down and back into something akin to normal then I expect we will be seeing more of him.
The bike ride was probably a post-emergency activity to help relieve the stress that must have been building up inside him over recent weeks.
His detractors would do well to think about that instead of jumping in all guns firing.
I agree Anne, except that it always seemed to me that Minister of Education was an even bigger kiss of death than Minister of Health..
I suspect every new Minister of Education and Health are convinced they are the one who gets these portfolios sorted once and for all and they will be heroes. It never happens. 😉
I could go along with that I guess.
Must say I've always had an issue with ministers not being particularly experienced in their portfolios.
Key used to rotate his front bench a lot, so much so that it appeared a deliberate strategy to move mistakes on, and to avoid scrutiny.
I found that meant most ministers in his government had little or no continuity, or even idea about what they were doing beyond the very basics of management. They were politicians answerable to Key’s ideology first, and familiar with their field last.
IIRC, Clark said it was his only chance for some exercise between his (work) commitments. That seems to have been ignored/lost.
As expected, lots of politics everywhere.
Now by what I see in the "boring" world of everyday people working in "essential" services is this:
I try to limit my movements so that I am not getting infected, not the other way around.
But since we all need to eat, one trip I do need to make is to the Supermarket.
Getting groceries is becoming slowly the most hated activity. When I arrive after already 12 hours in the churn there are long lines of people who have all day to get this done. But no, they have to go at a time when those who still work have to do this. Why do I know that they have choices? Flip flops and a T-shirt is not working attire.
When I finally get into the store, I can see a lot of chocolate and Coca Cola but no bread, and I mean NONE. No flour, baking ingredient so that you can make you own? NONE. Shelves are empty and I am getting really p…. off with those hoarders.
I was standing there last time looking at completely empty bread trays and a couple of ladies (nurses?) looking at one other horrified. We have to feed families too.
I hope they bring the military in to sort this because it is not right that those who work in essential industries/services are now being "punished" by not getting any basic food.
That's a good point about rationing for people that can only shop at certain times. I doubt it needs the military, supermarkets could be organising several shifts in a day of putting out essential items.
Might be good to email the supermarket if you have time and point this out to them.
Fwiw, and this may not help, but some of the shortages will be people spending more time at home and doing more baking.
Flour is a packaging problem.
Mills ran out of the retail size bags.
Flour to non retail outlets was in large bags, 20 kilo.
And. Of course we are all doing baking.
Expect it to be sorted soon.
twitter pic earlier of a dairy selling flour in paper bags.
Or request that the online click & collect "PickUp" system be for essential workers only?
You select a time you'll collect the groceries in advance. That means the supermarket workers can ensure essential workers get essential items put aside for them in advance.
The human cost is evident in reports from some of the global hotspots where the situation got out of control before the government took measures: hospitals overwhelmed in Italy, New York and the UK. Elderly people in rest homes in Spain abandoned by their carers, and military found old people dead in their beds.
Some doctors and nurses in the UK dead from Covid-19. And Unite UK is reporting that 5 bus workers have died with it.
I gave up commenting a few years ago, though I do still occasionally browse the site. Too busy, and political engagement is a fair time-sink. But I seem to have plenty of time on my hands again, for some reason..
Lprent made a few typos here that I would like to see clarified. I skimmed the comments, but they seemed to be mainly diverted onto the Clark issue. So if I skipped over clarification there, it would still be good to amend the OP.
1/ [paragraph after Plunket quote ends] "… crippled the ability to"
2/ [parag by South Korea graph] likewise lacks conclusion; “…constrained the outbreak for significant”
3/ Distance from Invercargill to Dunedin is 215km not 360km (maybe referencing DN to CHCH distance by mistake?)
4/ "avy" instead of "any" – which I am surprised the spellcheck let through (is that even a word?)
I’ll have a look at them after my next round of code tests.
the problem with the spell check here is that it uses US English. I'm in the habits of ignoring the underlines for misspelled words because there are so many that aren't misspelled.
Don't Mind R & B
What has soured sweet Rosemary McDonald in old age?
Is it her loving appreciation of Bill, who lives on a strange planet ? I know they are both happiest when they can rubbish intelligent people who do valuable work.
It's a pity though. It really is about time they cleaned up their own mess.
Iprent,mcflock OT,etc,
A day is a long time in a blog, Clark will be gone by the years end,maybe Hodgson can take over the mantle again, Churchill did.
Mine you he was mostly unloved in the end.