Convoy protest 15/2/22

158 comments on “Convoy protest 15/2/22 ”

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1. Ross 1

   15 February 2022 at 7:43 am

   If you talk to protesters, the only thing Mallard – who it seems enjoys provoking them – has done is to strengthen their resolve to stay there. That's why the police are frustrated, and talking to those on the front line, there's no doubt about that.

   Watching the carry-on from the safety of the Beehive, the Prime Minister clearly believes she's on firm ground painting the protesters as a bunch of anti-vax nutters. I don't know who she's had down on the mushy ground talking to them, but if they were worth their salt they would have told her a significant group of protesters are anti-mandate, like the teacher of 30 years from the Bay of Plenty who's lost his job, along with his wife.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-protest-govts-refusal-to-engage-with-parliament-group-unwise-if-not-unkind/XD3SOQR3KCX6TO4PELPEEL5LBY/
   • Ross 1.1

     15 February 2022 at 8:02 am

     When the anti-protesters have to resort to name-calling (“anti-vax nutters”), they’ve lost the debate. It would be great if they could actually articulate why vaccine mandates are necessary, even though the boffins at the Health Ministry who put together the pandemic plan seem to disagree.
     • observer 1.1.1

       15 February 2022 at 8:09 am

       When the anti-vaxers have to resort to making things up (“anti-vax nutters”), they’ve lost the debate.

       Soper used it. Ardern did not. Link the quote or withdraw the lie.
       • Ross 1.1.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 9:45 am

         Ardern did not.

         Please point out where I quoted the PM. Even Soper didn’t quote her. That’s the problem when you assume things that aren’t true.

         Now you might like to make the case for vaccine mandates. If you are not able to, please advise.
         • Andrew Miller 1.1.1.1.1

           15 February 2022 at 10:02 am

           Firstly, the case for vaccine mandates has been made countless times and do you really think we can’t tell there’s literally nothing anyone could say that would see you (or indeed those occupying Parliament) respond ‘Excellent points, I see it now and have changed my mind’.

           Secondly, people might take you a bit more seriously and not conclude you’re not just being utterly disingenuous if you were prepared to acknowledge that describing this occupation as being merely about vaccine mandates is at best misleading, that on site there are:

           The far right

           A complete mis mash to agendas including those obsessed by 1080

           An awful lot of people who engage in conspiracy theories and have no interest in reasoned debate.
           People who have engaged in appalling behaviour including sending death threats to politicians, threatening and abusing various workers and members of public including children.

           That all that obviously has a significant impact on whether anyone in authority is willing to ‘negotiate’

           When you can make a case as to why those people should simply be talked to and what the positive outcome from it is likely to be or…how you think the authorities are supposed to separate those people from any you good deem a good faith actors and given the presence of so many bad faith actors how it revolves things, I’ll happily listen.

           Until you can do all that, I think you’re being dishonest and simply aren’t serious.
           • Ross 1.1.1.1.1.1

             15 February 2022 at 11:01 am

             the case for vaccine mandates has been made countless times

             Well, the case may have been made badly, so why don't you make a convincing case. If you're unable to, that's fine.

             if you were prepared to acknowledge that describing this occupation as being merely about vaccine mandates

             I don't recall saying the protest is only about vaccine mandates. In fact, if you've read my comments (and I assume you have), you'll see that I have made a number of comments about lockdowns. I presume the protesters are not too enamoured with those either. 🙂
             • Andrew Miller …

               15 February 2022 at 11:43 am

               Thank you for providing my point so beautifully.

               Pathetic!
               • Ross …

                 15 February 2022 at 12:54 pm

                 So, Andrew, you don't appear able to make the case for vaccine mandates. You're in good company.

                 “We do not dispute that covid-19 can be and has been a dangerous infection, and we agree that vaccines are effective in many situations. However, there is considerable uncertainty about the effectiveness of the covid vaccines, some serious short-term complications and a lack of data on long-term harms. In this situation, it is imperative that people are able to make a fully-informed choice about whether to have the vaccine or not.”

                 As was discussed here over the weekend, informed consent is not something we have in New Zealand, notwithstanding that everyone is legally entitled to it.

                 https://faculty.rx.umaryland.edu/pdoshi/files/2021/11/Doshi-MedChi-talk-script.pdf

                 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2957/rr-1
           • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.1.1.2

             15 February 2022 at 12:52 pm

             Andrew Miller

             15 February 2022 at 10:02 am

             …When you can make a case as to why those people should simply be talked to and what the positive outcome from it is likely to be or…how you think the authorities are supposed to separate those people from any you good deem a good faith actors and given the presence of so many bad faith actors how it revolves things, I’ll happily listen.

             Hi Andrew, I know your comment was addressed to Ross.

             But I was glad to read that you'd be happy to listen to someone trying to make a case of why we should talk to those people.. Because I have written several comments making exactly the case, 'why those people should be talked to.'

             Including what I think, 'what the positive outcome from it is likely to be.'

             Also how we should sort out the bad actors, (or not), by asking the protesters themselves to choose their spokespeople.

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862845

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862834

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862838

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862832

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862827

             https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862561
             • Andrew Miller …

               15 February 2022 at 1:50 pm

               If either you or Ross had bothered reading you’d have noted that I said I would so long as certain realities were acknowledged.
               There has been unsurprisingly no attempt at that.
               In Ross’s case his starting position is so dishonest and disingenuous his posts read like a comedy act by this point.
               In your case you’r still coming from a fantasyland of your own making that you want be true.
               It may well be well intentioned, but it’s still a fantasyland. You’re welcome to project onto this whatever you wish, but the consequences of denying basic realities that are staring us in the face is people won’t take you seriously.
               So no, I have no intention of reading or listening to your links. If that leads you to not take me seriously or think I’m being close minded, so be it.
               • Jenny how to get there …

                 15 February 2022 at 2:28 pm

                 Andrew Miller…

                 15 February 2022 at 1:50 pm

                 If either you or Ross had bothered reading you’d have noted that I said I would so long as certain realities were acknowledged.
                 There has been unsurprisingly no attempt at that….

                 Hi Andrew your last sentence is completely untrue.

                 It's a shame Andrew that you could not be bothered to read even one of my comments, If you had bothered reading my comments, you would realise that I absolutely do acknowledge the reality that these protesters demands are completely stupid and unrealisable and should never be agreed to by any government..

                 This doesn't mean we shouldn't try to talk to them, before we give them the bash.

                 "…..the consequences of denying basic realities that are staring us in the face is people won’t take you seriously." Andrew Miller

                 In an attempt to avoid a confrontation, the consequences staring us in the face of not even attempting to talk to these protesters before forcibly evicting them, will be violence and possible life changing injuries for some.

                 This is the reality you don't want to accept, or even more callously, just choose to ignore.

                 Former police negotiator says protesters aren't 'being heard or listened to' by Government

                 14 Feb, 2022 08:39 AM

                 As the anti-mandate protest at Parliament enters its second week, a former lead police negotiator says protesters are not being heard or listened to by the Government – and a mediator should have been brought in by now….

                 Lance Burdett told Newstalk ZB's Mike Hosking today that anger rises by 30 per cent when people are told what to do…..

                 Burdett said that earlier on the Government themselves should have met with representatives of the group at an off-site location to hear what they had to say.

                 "That group they want to speak to someone from the Government they don't want to speak to somebody who is policing them," said Burdett.

                 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-parliament-protest-former-police-negotiator-says-protesters-arent-being-heard-or-listened-to-by-government/YY7HNUOG6D24DZ2HOE74TD5UAY/?

                 Andrew you can continue and support the government's mad headlong rush to a confrontation, but the results will not be nice.

                 Deny that reality if you will
                 • Nic the NZer …

                   15 February 2022 at 2:53 pm

                   Its often worth focusing on actions rather than rhetoric. As far as can be observed the govt seems to be implementing your steps from a post later yesterday. They have somewhere to park, the police are monitoring not arresting, I even saw a Maori warden this morning (along with police) to check that commuters were not being harassed (and its really up to them if they want to engage the protest more closely).

                   The continued insistence that some govt attitude problem is getting in the way is all well and good, but when you've suggested a plan you should evaluate that on the basis of how well that plan is working. As far as most of us can see there is a significant aspect amid this protest which wants it to end in a conflict (because it feeds their narrative best), and a lot of the moderate people left days ago.

                   Would be happy for them to deliver some demands to govt and then leave, but this is really up to the protest group to organize for themselves.
                 • Andrew Miller …

                   15 February 2022 at 4:02 pm

                   Mad head long rush?

                   They we’re issued with trespass notices days and days ago and they’re still there, the Police offered to park there cars rather than have towed.
                   We’re in Unicorn territory now, seriously you’ve completely parted company with reality.
                   • Jenny how to get there …

                     15 February 2022 at 6:35 pm

                     Andrew Miller…

                     15 February 2022 at 4:02 pm

                     Mad head long rush?

                     I admit to a bit of hyperbole, guilty as charged. But yes there is a rush to confrontation, though obviously not fast enough for you.

                     The delay in evicting the protesters has nothing to do with the politicians it has been a police decision.

                     If you and Trevor Mallard had your way, they would have been forcibly evicted on day one.

                     The police have been doing the politicians work.

                     The police have been conducting negotiations, and dare I say it, being political.

                     And it is noticeable.

                     Burdett said that earlier on the Government themselves should have met with representatives of the group at an off-site location to hear what they had to say.

                     "That group they want to speak to someone from the Government they don't want to speak to somebody who is policing them," said Burdett.

                     You really have to wonder. Isn't negotiation and discussion and compromise, the art of politicians?

                     Because of the absence of sensible and responsible political leadership, the police have had to step up to fill the gap.

                     And they have my highest praise for doing so.

                     It was a courageous decision. And the right one.

                     Not many police forces in the world would have hesitated one minute to implement their political leaders orders. No matter how much violence it took.

                     Tear gas, riot police, water cannon, the works.
             • weka …

               15 February 2022 at 3:27 pm

               now would be a good time for you to learn how to link properly. Either put something (anything) just before the TS link (a full stop does it), or use the link tags. Otherwise the comment URL reverts to the post, as we can see in your comment.
               • Jenny how to get there …

                 15 February 2022 at 7:35 pm

                 My goodness. Thanks for the pointer.
         • observer 1.1.1.1.2

           15 February 2022 at 10:06 am

           Pathetic, Ross.

           You deliberately implied that the PM used the term "anti-vax nutters". Do all the dishonest gymnastics you want.
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.1.3

           15 February 2022 at 10:15 am

           “Now you might like to make the case for vaccine mandates.”

           Mandatory COVID-19 certification was associated with a sharp increase in vaccination rates before implementation and had a long-lasting effect
         • weka 1.1.1.1.4

           15 February 2022 at 3:30 pm

           so do you believe that Ardern "clearly believes she's on firm ground painting the protesters as a bunch of anti-vax nutters"?
           • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.4.1

             15 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

             But she hasn't has she?

             https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493073192990097408
       • McFlock 1.1.1.2

         15 February 2022 at 3:35 pm

         Although, to be fair, the protestors do seem to include some antivax nutters amongst their number.

         Apparently vaccine "shedding" is the "biggest public health disaster in world history". The black death was pretty bad, folks, but ain't got nothing on mRNA
         • weka 1.1.1.2.1

           15 February 2022 at 3:39 pm

           Would be a bold political move for Ardern to use such a phrase though, arch-communicator that she is.
           • McFlock 1.1.1.2.1.1

             15 February 2022 at 5:06 pm

             true lol.

             Although it might be refreshing.
   • Bearded Git 1.2

     15 February 2022 at 11:32 am

     Ross-I reckon if you took a poll of the public 80% of them would have supported turning on the sprinklers….I know I did.

     I'm not sure about Barry Manilow though; that is extreme and very close to waterboarding.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   15 February 2022 at 7:51 am

   @ Ross.: Barry..Soper. No need to read that then ! And you seem well able to filter out the neo nazis and other fascists…..who are well mixed in.

   Get Vaccinated. For OUR Health. And think of the Health Professionals who will have to deal with the consequences …..
   • Patricia Bremner 2.1

     15 February 2022 at 12:35 pm

     Read what is happening in Australia.

     Ross you constantly ask for proof of this and proof of that lol

     You make wide generalisations and when you get an answer you side step. Many here find your prevarications tedious.

     Health orders are for the "General good" and will infringe some rights while they are in place.

     Easing of orders has begun. End of.
3. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3

   15 February 2022 at 8:06 am

   I'll try to set the tone for today's discussion of the farce in Wellington: twitter –

   Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara@Te_Taipo·12h

   #Convoy2022NZ [quote without link deleted]

   Well, I'm over it. Let the fuckwits stew in their own conspiracy juices [deleted].

   You just cannot reach some people with reason and compassion!

   [please supply a link everytime you copy from elsewhere. I deleted the second bit because it’s getting too close to advocating violence. Please read the Policy and be more careful with comments – weka]
   • Blade 3.1

     15 February 2022 at 8:09 am

     ”You just cannot reach some people with reason and compassion!”

     Does that include the government?
     • observer 3.1.1

       15 February 2022 at 8:16 am

       You reach governments with votes. Politicians like them, need them.

       Luxon has completely echoed Ardern, and not one MP of any party has wanted to engage with the protesters so it's hard to see where any votes are going to shift. We'll see.

       The top link in the OP is well worth reading. Rawiri is no fool.
       • observer 3.1.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 11:10 am

         https://twitter.com/henrycooke/status/1493337153694466048
         • Blade 3.1.1.1.1

           15 February 2022 at 12:36 pm

           Chris Luxon is a waste of space. I said when he was elected he'd be woke.

           In fact over the last few days my tolerance for politicians is starting to wane.

           Whenever I see Jacinda drone on from the pulpit of truth, I want to puke. Her bs is nauseating. Now that feeling has extended to Dave Seymour, who looks increasingly like a wind up toy weasel spouting the same old company line. Ditto, Mr Hypocrisy himself, James Shaw.

           The only saving grace is the Maori party hasn't been in action spouting their usual racist bs. Thanks guys. But I'm getting a funny feeling you can't hide for much longer should the protest continue.

           Crikey – the protesters are turning me.
           • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1.1

             15 February 2022 at 2:43 pm

             Whenever I see Jacinda drone on from the pulpit of truth, I want to puke. Her bs is nauseating. Now that feeling has extended to Dave Seymour, who looks increasingly like a wind up toy weasel spouting the same old company line. Ditto, Mr Hypocrisy himself, James Shaw.

             You sure you haven't picked up a gastro bug from the campsite?
             • Blade …

               15 February 2022 at 3:59 pm

               I have a relly who goes down each day for nosy. She keeps me informed of the changing kaupapa.

               I’m worried the virus and pink eye have mutated and are travelling via cell phone towers into my phone.
           • rod 3.1.1.1.1.2

             15 February 2022 at 4:56 pm

             Blade Your love and devotion to the National Party is well documented. Are you Hosking in drag.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2

     15 February 2022 at 8:19 am

     Nothing so sure as the anti vaxxer/conspiracists will get sick. Problem then for NZ Health system…and Our Frontline Health Professionals.

     Maybe they could look after each other away from the NZ Health System they denigrate?
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.3

     15 February 2022 at 8:34 am

     They'll take no notice but here's a try at getting through to their closed minds:

     https://twitter.com/KiwiCapricious/status/1493185931993837570
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.3.1

       15 February 2022 at 1:20 pm

       Note! There are two similar petitions. This one here is getting a lot more traction. Over 2000 signatures in less than 1 day and climbing fast

       https://www.change.org/p/freedom-groups-in-wellington-tell-the-wellington-protestors-to-go-home-they-are-not-the-majority
       • Blade 3.3.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 3:48 pm

         The protesters need counter PR fast. Starting with a counter petition.

         If they let this slide the anti protest petitions could be hard to argue against, and may turn sheeple who don't know what to think into anti protest supporters. It may also embolden the government and police to take decisive action.

         I would call for reinforcements and decide how the protest will splinter and reform after police move in.

         And move in they must surely do soon ?
     • Rosemary McDonald 3.3.2

       15 February 2022 at 6:40 pm

       Oh look! 282 signatures

       And 6400 signatures

       And 7067 signatures No vaccine mandates for healthcare workers

       And 7772 signatures Jacinda..this is not who we are…police brutality in Wellington

       And 68000 signatures No vaccine mandates in New Zealand

       And an oldie but a goody….125,000 signatures. Remove tax exemption from Destiny Church.
       • weka 3.3.2.1

         15 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

         what's the significance of the last one?
         • Nic the NZer 3.3.2.1.1

           15 February 2022 at 7:16 pm

           Well Destiny Church apparently left a few days ago.
           • weka 3.3.2.1.1.1

             15 February 2022 at 8:30 pm

             Interesting.
             • Nic the NZer …

               15 February 2022 at 8:54 pm

               To be clear, that was entirely a joke, referencing how the camp seems likely to feel about groups who defect from the protest. I'm awarding myself partial credit for this based on Rosemary's reply.

               I don't actually know if they have left. I have seen there is a split between them (after providing the sound system and getting less air time) and who seems to be leading now. I do think they are savvy enough to understand they don't want to be associated with this any further in the media.

               Its also possible that they just left before the weekend due to the weather and were only ever committed for a day or two in the first place.
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.3.2.1.2

           15 February 2022 at 7:21 pm

           Oh, I don't know.

           I remember signing the thing, and I took a punt and made a rare Faceache comment the other day practically begging the Bishop's Bovver Boyz to refrain from doing the macho/aggro/willy wagging thing they are wont to do at these gatherings,and hence bring the protest into disrepute. I got a few nods of approval, but basically the timbre was that the Boyz will do what the Boyz have to do. Like they can't help themselves.

           Sigh. This free speech shit is hard.
   • weka 3.4

     15 February 2022 at 8:44 am

     mod note.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.5

     15 February 2022 at 8:48 am

     Link requested: can't see how this is advocating violence!

     https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493110216837062658
     • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.5.1

       15 February 2022 at 8:51 am

       Ah, yes, the second part of my comment, I see.

       Well, perhaps you are right – but shit, I'm frustrated these idiots have commanded so much air time.
       • weka 3.5.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 8:55 am

         the rule is there to stop things getting out of hand when feelings are running high.
         • Andrew Miller 3.5.1.1.1

           15 February 2022 at 10:37 am

           And if this is true “General feeling with the protestors that they cannot back down. Having backed themselves into a corner with demands that can never be met by any govt”

           What if that ship has sailed and leaving it longer will only make matters worse…
4. Reality 4

   15 February 2022 at 8:38 am

   If/when the protesters get sick they will kindly look after each other in their tents and will not expect any medical intervention no matter what, because they don't believe in medical science. Hmm.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 4.1

     15 February 2022 at 8:45 am

     I saw a tweet from inside the protest – a woman reading the demands rejected by Jacinda.

     She had to stop two or three times to cough off camera. Truly concerning.

     Sorry, can't find the link.
     • solkta 4.1.1

       15 February 2022 at 9:02 am

       If you find it please post. Ardern said yesterday that the demands were for all covid measures to be removed but i haven't seen a list of demands from the protesters. Signs have said that if the mandates are removed they will go home, but are they actually asking for more? Do the factions have a common objective?
       • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 9:14 am

         There is a list of demands in Mickey's post here

         https://thestandard.org.nz/the-right-to-protest/

         They are at the bottom of MS opening post.

         They are asking for much more……….

         basically for the removal of all health protections just as NZ is facing a huge upsurge in Omicron cases.
         • solkta 4.1.1.1.1

           15 February 2022 at 9:29 am

           Thanks, hadn't seen the update.
         • ianmac 4.1.1.1.2

           15 February 2022 at 10:16 am

           Knew I had read that list somewhere! Thanks for the link.

           Is the list a real authenticated list and if so, presented by whom?
         • Ross 4.1.1.1.3

           15 February 2022 at 11:14 am

           But the PM said that the protestors have demanded that “all public health measures are removed”. I've read a list of their demands published here and I don't see the protesters demanding that all public health measures be removed. I imagine that many if not most of the protesters are not opposed to people being vaccinated if they so wish, or wearing masks if they so wish. (Indeed it was reported that two protesters wore masks during their recent court appearances.) Like those who support women's right to choose abortion, I wouldn’t be surprised it it were the case that many if not most of the protesters are pro-choice.

           Of course, choosing to do something is not the same as being coerced into doing something.
           • KJT 4.1.1.1.3.1

             15 February 2022 at 12:28 pm

             Havn't been paying attention, have you?
       • Andrew Miller 4.1.1.2

         15 February 2022 at 10:41 am

         One of the biggest problems and one a lot of people seem in denial about is there is no meaningful ‘they’.
         I’m sure ‘some’ may well go home if that happened , but there’s no reason to think it would resolve matters.
       • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 4.1.1.3

         15 February 2022 at 11:26 am

         Found it.

         https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493091793772023810

         You have to go to the comments by other people.
         • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 4.1.1.3.1

           15 February 2022 at 1:33 pm

           Sorry, I'm a bit of a troglidyte (?) as far as twitter goes. Try this

           https://twitter.com/FreedomNZ2022/status/1493034501760425985
           • weka 4.1.1.3.1.1

             15 February 2022 at 2:19 pm

             ah, liberals still thinking ridicule is going to work.
             • McFlock …

               15 February 2022 at 2:50 pm

               Nothing will "work". Might as well have a laugh.
               • weka …

                 15 February 2022 at 3:25 pm

                 wow, that's bleak.
                 • McFlock …

                   15 February 2022 at 3:49 pm

                   Sometimes I wonder whether hospo work broke me, or just gave me the tools with which to live in an occasionally bleak world.

                   Some folks can't be negotiated with, there's no mutual resolution to the disagreement, reason will not work, rational self-interest and consequence-based planning are not a factor for them. There's little or no psychological "in" or motivation that can be worked with, they cannot be distracted from their self-absorption.

                   Sometimes you put up with the freak show because it's more trouble than it's worth to do otherwise (and they might wander off and be someone else's problem), sometimes you eventually have to act and it takes six of you to hold 'em down. And they bite.

                   After dealing with a few of them, you can pick 'em from a thousand km away, I reckon.

                   Oh, and nazis. Fuck those guys. No negotiation with them, ever.
                   • weka …

                     15 February 2022 at 4:03 pm

                     I wasn't actually talking about negotiation. I was referring to the tweet speeding up the speech so it's not possible to properly hear what she is saying. For laffs, sure. But we don't have a good understanding yet of what is going on, so this is just stupid shit that makes understanding even harder. It also reinforced perceptions about liberals.

                     Totally with you about the nazis though.
                   • McFlock …

                     15 February 2022 at 4:10 pm

                     sped it up to fit the tweet video length, apparently. Format problem, not just mockery.

                     Seemed to be the same old same old. Frankly I'm not even sure she's not a jokester – all the stuff about what she was reading was the proper letter, not what other people read out seemed pretty satirical to me.
                 • JO …

                   15 February 2022 at 7:36 pm

                   Je me force de rire de peur d'être obligé d'en pleurer.

                   McFlock gets it.
                   • weka …

                     15 February 2022 at 8:14 pm

                     Not a luxury I can afford.
             • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …

               15 February 2022 at 3:54 pm

               I put that tweet up to show the woman coughing off camera. Now that's a worry!

               Or at least, I think so.

               This farce will not only be nonsensical and achieve nothing, but will be a super-spreader event!
               • weka …

                 15 February 2022 at 4:07 pm

                 or, much more likely, she's talking a lot and has tickle in her throat.
                 • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …

                   15 February 2022 at 4:26 pm

                   Wow, weka, none so blind . . .
                   • weka …

                     15 February 2022 at 8:13 pm

                     You think she has omicron?
                   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …

                     16 February 2022 at 4:59 am

                     I sincerely hope not, seeing as she is very likely to be unvaccinated.

                     The science is very clear – the unvaxxed potentially get a more severe case than the vaxxed.

                     I'm triple jabbed, and still I’m sure as hell I don't want it.

                     But I’d be concerned about anyone coughing at the protest.
   • higherstandard 4.2

     15 February 2022 at 9:45 am

     Have the protestors stated that don't believe in medical science ?
     • Andrew Miller 4.2.1

       15 February 2022 at 10:08 am

       They clearly don’t believe in some of it and I’m yet to understand why if vaccines are all the things these people claim they are, why it wouldn’t apply to everything else to do with medical science?
       Drs and scientists are bad faith actors or dupes when it comes to vaccines but if I get sick or injured some other way I’ll trust them and let them treat me…

       How does that work?
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.2.1.1

         15 February 2022 at 12:56 pm

         Quite a long read….but if there's any wondering for the love of.. why ? It might be here…or not

         https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement
     • observer 4.2.2

       15 February 2022 at 10:10 am

       Nobody says "I don't believe in medical science".

       They say "I believe in astronomy. The sun orbits the earth".

       It's up to us to have critical faculties and draw the obvious conclusion.
       • weka 4.2.2.1

         15 February 2022 at 2:14 pm

         there's a difference between science illiteracy and not believing in science too.

         Would be nice to stop talking about the protestors as a hive mind, but that would mean giving up the tool of marginalisation.
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.2.3

       15 February 2022 at 10:49 am

       Anyone with a "Voices for Freedom" sign can reasonably be suspected of that. And there are heaps of VFF signs there.
5. Shanreagh 5

   15 February 2022 at 9:18 am

   This guy, mentioned above, is setting a good standard for hour to hour commentary.

   I am following him, not looking at the protest on line or reading any journos, other than opinion pieces.

   https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493302329654738944
   • observer 5.1

     15 February 2022 at 9:26 am

     His thread includes video of a guy on the mic putting Michael Baker on "trial", and asking the mob for their verdict. "Guilty!", they shout.

     Not Ardern, Mallard, the powers of the State. An epidemiologist. An academic. "Guilty".

     And it's not a couple of fringe outsiders shouting, it's the crowd.

     Reasonable people, reasonable demands. Sure.
6. Ad 6

   15 February 2022 at 9:21 am

   At some point an enthusiast will compare all the Act Party media releases on vaccine mandates over the last year, with Act's "shucks-wasn't-me" denials of providing encouragement to the protest.
7. Andrew Miller 7

   15 February 2022 at 9:48 am

   People who’s world view is rooted in conspiratorial thinking didn’t take an offer from the authorities at face value and thought it might be trick.

   Nope, never saw that one coming….
8. Adrian 8

   15 February 2022 at 12:03 pm

   If you have lost job because you are unvaxxed, you can not say you aren’t anti vaccination, just anti-mandate, you lost your job because you are not vaccinated and a fucking idiot. Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara nailed it earlier with his assessment that they are embarrassed that they have back themselves into a corner and are too stupid to know how to get out of it.
   They have done us all a favour ironically, now anybody can freedom camp anywhere they like now by just claiming to be protesting. I’ve tried it with parking tickets, it works a treat….yeah fucking right!
   • Poission 8.1

     15 February 2022 at 12:20 pm

     Well the speaker of the NZ parliament showed that you breach water restrictions,play loud party music all night,and forgo mandatory mask wearing.

     the spokeswoman for Business NZ just released an enhanced let it rip strategy,

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/covid-19-omicron-kiwis-arriving-from-australia-can-skip-miq-from-february-28-under-strict-conditions.html

     Which is against public opinion,and you are worried about a few tents in a public playground.
     • Andrew Miller 8.1.1

       15 February 2022 at 2:06 pm

       Yes, because issuing a statement is the same as intimidating and threatening people, up to and including spitting at bus drivers, pulling masks off children and issuing death threats.
       ‘A few tents in a playground’ Yes, of course…
9. joe90 9

   15 February 2022 at 12:22 pm

   It's a trap!

   
   • Nic the NZer 9.1

     15 February 2022 at 12:56 pm

     Damn it. How did they figure out that the one way, narrow urban route was the only way to get military vehicles to parliament! I mean clearly you can't get heavy military vehicles in via the harbour road (where industrial and logging trucks go).
     • GreenBus 9.1.1

       15 February 2022 at 2:28 pm

       A couple of log loaders from the wharf would unblock the road in short order…
10. Reality 10

    15 February 2022 at 12:44 pm

    This morning a friend told me she has been told by someone she knows, who is at the protest with her children, she is anti-vax because razor blades are put in the vaccine! Not sure what sort of stuff that woman has put in her body to become that twisted.
11. Barfly 11

    15 February 2022 at 1:24 pm

    I am thinking now that the protesters may be best just left in place – Omicron is spreading at such a pace that in a weeks time the protesters will be shown to all New Zealand as the irrelevant fools that they are.

    
    • Andrew Miller 11.1

      15 February 2022 at 2:02 pm

      Fine in theory, but I think the vast majority of NZers already know they’re irrelevant fools and as a Wellingtonian I quite like my fellow residents to be able to go about their day without the abuse and intimidation.
    • McFlock 11.2

      15 February 2022 at 3:57 pm

      omicron is more a volume impact thing. Fringe crowds probably aren't big enough to get screwed over, by it. But they can spread it to everyone back home, all at once when the protest ends.
12. Shanreagh 12

    15 February 2022 at 1:45 pm

    Yesterday the GiveSendGo donation site that is taking donations for the glorious /s Trucker convoy in Canada was hacked.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/technology/2022/02/christian-crowdfunding-site-givesendgo-hacked-freedom-convoy-donors-revealed.html

    The hackers apparently have lists of the donors. They have grouped the donor donations by country

    here

    https://twitter.com/876Tokie/status/1493067408701288448/photo/1

    As is said in a post

    'Seems like a totally legit, home-grown, all-Canadian funding effort. Or close enough, I guess?'

    to which we can reply in a typical NZ fashion

    'yeah right'

    The hackers are not going to release the names to the general public but are prepared to give them to accredited media. I wonder if any of our lot will be prepared to request the listing for NZ and do an investigation.

    According to the list donations of $103,000 have been made from NZ.

    Give Send Go is famous for funding such worthy causes as the US Proud Boys.

    Here is the message from the hackers with music from Frozen

    https://twitter.com/MikaelThalen/status/1493056860638773248
    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      15 February 2022 at 4:30 pm

      Hopefully arrests and long prison sentences await the hackers (if a crime has been committed of course)
13. Sanctuary 13

    15 February 2022 at 4:18 pm

    Hard not to think that Wellington District Commander Corrie Parnell's career is over when the boss has to take over.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/300516678/live-police-announce-crackdown–vehicles-will-be-towed-and-seized-those-who-block-police-will-be-arrested-and-charged
    • weka 13.1

      15 February 2022 at 4:26 pm

      that's a really good statement.
      • weka 13.1.1

        15 February 2022 at 4:31 pm

        livestream

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-at-parliament-police-commissioner-warns-protest-no-longer-tenable-as-sit-in-enters-second-week/DBO33JRDXSL4VZJZNPP2H6BPTY/
14. ianmac 14

    15 February 2022 at 5:02 pm

    The naked protester speaks up. She appears pretty happy about her "performance."

    In a speech to the waiting crowd on Tuesday, the woman who made headlines for being dragged from the protest naked by police says officers were "very kind" to her.

    She said while she "definitely didn't want to be naked" she felt safe.

    "My sister Sharon was meditating beside me. Breathing was what got me through. I did have a panic attack when I saw the cubicle I was going to, but a nice officer helped calm me down."

    "They were very kind to me in custody considering how cheeky I was."
    The woman went viral for her arrest, during which she was dragged by her hair by police.

    When asked why she was naked, she said, "In my experience at other occupation and seeing wahine take their clothes off, it worked."

    "We greased up with coconut oil," she laughed, adding that before her arrest she had been "throwing" her naked body at them to make them back off.

    "I would do a bit of twerking."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-at-parliament-police-commissioner-warns-protest-no-longer-tenable-as-sit-in-enters-second-week/DBO33JRDXSL4VZJZNPP2H6BPTY/
    • PsyclingLeft.Always 14.1

      15 February 2022 at 5:09 pm

      "I would do a bit of twerking" …Real ! ?

      You gotta wonder : )
    • weka 14.2

      15 February 2022 at 5:20 pm

      "We greased up with coconut oil," she laughed, adding that before her arrest she had been "throwing" her naked body at them to make them back off.

      That explains using her hair to pull her out of the crowd.
      • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.1

        15 February 2022 at 9:49 pm

        That explains using her hair to pull her out of the crowd.

        Not really. Remember the blanket that was plonked over her had once she was face down on the ground? The same bit of kit could have been used to cover/wrap her up…then grab a hold. I have some experience in having to safely restrain mentally unwell persons…some quite physically fragile. Even greased up with the coconut oil (I bet her skin is in very good condition) a blanket would have allowed the arresting officer to get a grip. I bet 'Deploy the Blanket' it is even on the list of possible techniques in that manual for the Arrest of Naked Persons.

        Nah. They had choices. They could have just ignored her. They were played…not that they needed much encouragement to act like thugs that day.

        #letssquashalexander'shead
        • solkta 14.2.1.1

          15 February 2022 at 10:01 pm

          I guess if the cops had pepper sprayed half a dozen or so people around her that might have worked.
15. McFlock 15

    15 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

    peaceful protestor calls for the NZDF to launch a military coup.

    Might be a little bit ultra vires himself, there.
    • weka 15.1

      15 February 2022 at 5:13 pm

      that shit doesn't help either. It makes it sound like you either believe that most of the protestors are alt right, or that you just want to misrepresent the protest.

      It's both, hippies and nazis.
      • McFlock 15.1.1

        15 February 2022 at 5:19 pm

        Hippies and a bunch of other types, all happy to stand beside nazis.
        • weka 15.1.1.1

          15 February 2022 at 5:34 pm

          Really? Got any pictures or video of that?
          • McFlock 15.1.1.1.1

            15 February 2022 at 5:38 pm

            That video of Alp was at the protest.
            • Poission 15.1.1.1.1.1

              15 February 2022 at 6:16 pm

              His bail conditions state that he is prohibited to enter Wellington region,and he has been in the south island,you shore thats him.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127766088/white-supremacist-philip-arps-arrested-after-alleged-public-execution-comment
              • weka …

                15 February 2022 at 6:19 pm

                Kelvyn Alp, rather than Philip Arp.
              • McFlock …

                15 February 2022 at 6:28 pm

                Alp not Arps.

                Arps indeed was arrested in Picton and prevented from entering Wellington. Kelvyn Alp is another fringe dickhead and far-right streamer, in this specific instance calling for a military coup.

                Also seen in the protesting group were members of another neonazi group.

                The principles we espouse are tested by the company we keep.
                • weka …

                  15 February 2022 at 6:35 pm

                  ok, but you're hanging out with right wingers and anti-mandaters as we speak.
                  • McFlock …

                    15 February 2022 at 6:52 pm

                    Pretty sure I'm making my feelings towards them known. Within the limits of moderation, of course.

                    edit: well, blade might not have figured it out yet, but that’s through no fault in communication at my end. I use the smallest words I can for their benefit.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:16 pm

                      But someone watching from a distance might just see you hanging out with them. My point is we're getting snippets and a lot of bias accounts from all sides. Truth is going to be a mix of things. It's obvious there are nazis and some hard core violent people there. It's not so clear that most people there know what is going on.
                    • McFlock …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:35 pm

                      Watching from a distance? ew. I'm home alone.

                      Look, I get the principle. I just don't believe it's reasonable, in this instance, after a full week, for the crowd to be given the benefit of the doubt – that most of the people haven't noticed the banners, placards, assaults, spitting, verbal abuse.

                      Even if they haven't been exposed to the streams and telegram accounts, we're at the level that there must have been a wilful choice about what they choose to see and what they choose to ignore.

                      There might be one or two stoned as fuck individuals who are oblivious to everything else going on, but come on.
                • weka …

                  15 February 2022 at 6:39 pm

                  Where are AZ in that video? (I know they are there, just wondering how you recognise them).
                  • weka …

                    15 February 2022 at 6:41 pm

                    Never mind, I was looking at the NZH vid of Coster (do they teach police that bob up and down when they're speaking thing?).

                    So we have a report that AZ were there in the crowd, but we don't know what role they tool?
                    • McFlock …

                      15 February 2022 at 6:55 pm

                      Just how many far-right extremists need to be there, in whatever role, before the ordinary peace-loving NZers in that crowd have no excuse to claim ignorance?
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:34 pm

                      not sure if that's a rhetorical question, but if someone at the protest sees hippies and peace for 90% of the time and some weirdo aggressive types 10% of the time but doesn't really understand who they are or what they are doing, then I can totally understand them ignoring that.

                      Would your explanation be that they know who they are and choose to be there despite knowing the are nazis?

                      At which point I would say it's not like they're running round all sig heil with jack boots on. So you tell me what's been happening. Because I don't have a good sense. I know some of the things, but I'm not seeing this a nazi rally so much as this other thing that the alt right infiltrated.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:40 pm

                      anyhoo, if I have the spoons tomorrow, I will ask some of the people I know on twitter who believe the protest is a peaceful one, the question of why the peaceniks aren't addressing the issues about the alt right/nazis.

                      Meanwhile, we wait to see if shit goes sideways,

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-at-parliament-police-commissioner-warns-protest-no-longer-tenable-as-sit-in-enters-second-week/DBO33JRDXSL4VZJZNPP2H6BPTY/
                    • McFlock …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:54 pm

                      Again, it's been a week. Maybe they missed the actual swastika. But there have been some damned interesting speeches on the feed. Maybe they missed those, too. Maybe they didn't see the multiple instances of people abusing passers-by. Maybe they haven't watched any of the streams, or read any of the placards or slogans painted on trucks.

                      But after a week, that's stretching the limits of credulity.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 10:00 pm

                      Imagine what you would know if you hadn't followed the MSM or liberal SM in the past week.
                    • McFlock …

                      15 February 2022 at 10:21 pm

                      Imagine what you would know if you hadn't followed the MSM or liberal SM in the past week.

                      And just stayed in a tent next to that lot?
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 10:35 pm

                      You're convinced that a) they saw all the things and b) it meant something to them and c) they have a political lens to view it through. I'm not.

                      Probably part of the problem is I've been told there are nazis there but haven't seen much of it, so I'm having a hard time imagining what the people there would be seeing in terms of what you suggest.
                    • McFlock …

                      15 February 2022 at 10:58 pm

                      You're convinced that a) they saw all the things and b) it meant something to them and c) they have a political lens to view it through. I'm not.

                      No, I'm convinced that most attendees have been in a position to see something that should be a massive heads-up. You don't need a political lens to sense a core of outright hostility and intimidation in a group. I've been both sides and in between on a number of different protests, and there's a difference between an angry protest and people looking for a fight.

                      Some might be oblivious. But most? That's what I doubt.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 11:36 pm

                      would you mind giving some examples then? And I thought we were talking about nazis, not simply aggression.
            • weka 15.1.1.1.1.2

              15 February 2022 at 6:21 pm

              This one? Not seeing any hippies standing happily beside him.

              https://twitter.com/byroncclark/status/1493435833403473921
              • McFlock …

                15 February 2022 at 6:29 pm

                Not seeing anyone telling him to fuck off, either. Even when he's walking around amongst the tents.
                • weka …

                  15 February 2022 at 6:34 pm

                  sure. We had that conversation already. Bet there are people who have no idea who he is, and that there are lots of people wandering around making vids. But yes, the people that don't support that shit should be saying/doing something.

                  Calling that hippies standing happily alongside nazis is highly misleading. Which is what the MSM and liberals are doing, and it's just going to reinforce that the MSM and liberals can't be trusted.
                  • McFlock …

                    15 February 2022 at 6:48 pm

                    See, I don't think it is misleading. They've had a week now to catch up on who they're with. Some of the original organisers have even left for that reason, apparently – fair call to them. Nutty, but not prepared to stand beside fuckwits.

                    And the others have seen or heard zero red flags (pun not intended) in that time? Ansell comparing Ardern to the mosque shooter. The noose (which is apparently still up). The abuse levelled at people, the assaults, the harassment of passers-by. None of that brings up concerns that maybe they're mixing with some grade-a fuckwits?
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:24 pm

                      How many of the hippy types do you know, personally and well?

                      Because I can totally see the ones I know not actually knowing what is going on. Not knowing who Ansell is, or Alp. Vague awareness of who BT is.

                      So sure, they hear and see things but it's not the dominant experience of the protest for them (or watching from afar) and they just don't have the political awareness to put it into context let alone the kind of analysis you and I are talking about. Some of the new agers will be actively avoiding thinking about it because it's got a heavy vibe and they choose to focus on the love and light (I know, don't get me started).

                      None of that is an excuse. I'm simply describing what I think is part of the dynamic that is this weird, weird event playing out before our eyes.

                      Anyway, apparently Slater is there now speaking. Of the ten or so people I know from my community who are either friends or are people I have heard are in Welly, I doubt that even two of them know who Slater is, or what he does.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:28 pm

                      Which isn't to say there isn't an issue. When I listen to some of the stuff being said, by protestors or people I know here, I can parse some of the rhetoric into hippy or new ager or libertarian. This is what concerns me. If the left call them nazi adjacent, they will turn even further away from liberal values and more towards the people who make them feel met and that they belong. Can't imagine that is Slater or Alp, but there will be others there, whose pitch is somewhat different.

                      Thing that is freaking me out is the conversations I'm going to be having locally over the next few months and finding how much people are along that track. But this isn't new, I was having those conversations in 2016 when friends were telling me Trump wasn't so bad and Clinton was evil. These are not RW people.
                    • weka …

                      15 February 2022 at 8:29 pm

                      That's probably the main point btw, about belonging and feeling met. The left vastly misses that this isn't an intellectual political fight, it's one about the gut and feeling. If you make people feel like shit they won't listen. Pretty basic human functioning writ large. It should be possible to push back against the fascists and sociopaths without shitting on people who might otherwise be allies (of us).
              • Peter …

                15 February 2022 at 8:16 pm

                Sure, the more people who see Alp the more mental defectives who will be attracted to his cause.

                However, the more ordinary people who see it the more will realise the scum who think they are the way forward for this country.

                Alp wants "free and fair elections." So the people he agrees with, or agree with him are in power. And if an election were held in June and a different lot were elect which he didn't free with he'd want another election I presume.

                The best thing for Alp is that he lives in a civilised country. In many regimes around the world he would be summarily dealt with. The sort of tyrannical places he and his disturbed mate think ours is.
              • Shanreagh …

                15 February 2022 at 10:00 pm

                Counterspin has been providing the 'on air' stuff that is playing most of the time. Surely people will be listening to that. That veers from wild and woolly to saying Ok to talk to people but not to touch or harass them.
                • weka …

                  15 February 2022 at 10:43 pm

                  Maybe link to something that shows what you mean.
                  • weka …

                    15 February 2022 at 10:46 pm

                    eg this doesn't have anything overtly nazi or even alt right on it (can't see the Telegram vids).

                    https://t.me/s/counterspin
    • solkta 15.2

      15 February 2022 at 5:20 pm

      The gummint is working for foreign agents. The opposition too presumably. It's the nuttiest nut bar chew.
      • fender 15.2.1

        15 February 2022 at 10:08 pm

        Where was this fantasist hiding when there was an actual MP with previous experience in schooling spies I wonder. He must have really disliked Key & Co.

        Just comes across as one of those wannabe dictator gun nut types. His real reason for hating this Government is more likely to be the machine gun laws curbing his desire to amass an arsenal for his army of wannabe soldiers.

        Sounds like a job for the SIS.
        • left for dead 15.2.1.1

          16 February 2022 at 8:04 am

          @fender bender,,, machine guns have not been legal in this country,well longer than you're been a FOOL.Even longer.
16. Shanreagh 16

    15 February 2022 at 5:18 pm

    https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493421812151062528

    from Te Rangikaihiria Kemara who has been a source of good intell all through this. It is clear that there are perhaps moderates and not so moderates. A protest is to be held in Chch on Friday18/2.

    I am trying not to mock or do anything like that as I am keen to have my city free again but to be frank these images are frightening.
    • weka 16.1

      15 February 2022 at 6:26 pm

      It is frightening (would like to see some confirmation that that's an actual event).

      Also frightening is seeing it done so boldly. Not surprising but still shocking to see what was there all the time coming into the light.

      (and fuck the lefties who argued Trump's not so bad and opened the door for encouragement).
17. Shanreagh 17

    15 February 2022 at 6:11 pm

    NZ Police are apparently starting to move the cars now, thankfully.

    Let us hope that something will change in the protestors minds…….the rest of NZ is not out to get you despite what your own algorithm directed research on social media might be telling you.
    • weka 17.1

      15 February 2022 at 6:22 pm

      actually, a big chunk of the left is out to get them, and they knew that already.
      • PsyclingLeft.Always 17.1.1

        15 February 2022 at 6:31 pm

        Got a link to that? Or just your feeling?
        • weka 17.1.1.1

          15 February 2022 at 6:41 pm

          Observation. TS and my twitter feed have been full of this all week.
      • Shanreagh 17.1.2

        15 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

        I hadn't read that but I had read that it was not a matter of a right/left split but of a whole lots of different concerns/complaints on different things and with differing intensities.

        May have been Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara who I have been following on Twitter.
        Lots of refs from me and others above
    • Shanreagh 17.2

      15 February 2022 at 6:37 pm

      Apparently not!
      • weka 17.2.1

        15 February 2022 at 6:42 pm

        They're not removing cars?
        • Shanreagh 17.2.1.1

          15 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

          Not yet apparently……a cop just was inspecting them. May have been getting them ready to tow.
          • weka 17.2.1.1.1

            15 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

            What are you watching?
            • Shanreagh 17.2.1.1.1.1

              15 February 2022 at 6:50 pm

              Following Te Taipo ie Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara on Twitter. .
18. Peter 18

    15 February 2022 at 8:03 pm

    Family member who works near Parliament said tonight her workmates have been harassed about wearing masks and having them grabbed at. And spoke of noticeable increase in vandalism in the toilets at the railway station.
    • fender 18.1

      15 February 2022 at 10:43 pm

      My sons partner was asked by a girl of approx. 8 years old who was walking with her unmasked parents down Lambton Quay on the weekend why she was wearing a mask. They were some hillbilly looking family schooling their 8 year old child on how to behave like an obnoxious Trumpist.

      Having someone try to remove your mask like you described must be an assault. There should be plenty of Police around the area because some of these so called protesters are obviously unable to control themselves in public.
    • mauī 18.2

      15 February 2022 at 11:45 pm

      Maybe they need to take a look at some of the signs around Parliament for some perspective on what actual hardship kiwis have been through these past few years.
19. Shanreagh 19

    15 February 2022 at 10:15 pm

    Kelvyn Alp has a view that has been put to those at the protest.

    From Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1493513290630131715
20. Shanreagh 20

    15 February 2022 at 10:18 pm

    Are we all still thinking this is about mandates?

    https://twitter.com/byroncclark/status/1493435833403473921
    • weka 20.1

      15 February 2022 at 10:36 pm

      he’s wandering around on his own. How many people do you think agree with him?

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