Daily review 07/11/2023

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, November 7th, 2023 - 46 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

46 comments on “Daily review 07/11/2023 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    7 November 2023 at 6:12 pm

    From the river to the sea.

    It's used by Likud (in regard to the West Bank being under Israeli control) and Hamas for their goal of a unitary state.

    Many use it otherwise, justice within Israel for Arab citizens, right of return for refugees and the end of post 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

    Here Chloe Swarbrick uses a subtle variation – probably because the IDF is currently back in Gaza, which is by the sea.

    "The pathway forward for ongoing peace means justice," she said. "That means an immediate ceasefire, return of all hostages on both sides and recognition of the humanity and human rights of Palestinians, wherever they are, but especially in their occupied homeland – from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea," Swarbrick told Stuff.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-s-rally-chant-being-misconstrued-justice-for-palestine-says.html

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133244121/from-the-river-to-the-sea-why-a-green-mp-caused-controversy-with-six-words

  2. pat 2
    7 November 2023 at 6:15 pm

    Willie being a dick

    (link when becomes available)

    • pat 2.1
      7 November 2023 at 6:53 pm

      "Jackson said he would spend the next six months deciding whether he wanted to stay on as an MP. However, he would definitely stay on if such a referendum went ahead.

      "If there's one, if that happens, then it's going to require me to stay around," he said.

      "I don't want civil unrest in our country. I'm just giving a warning. I work amongst our people. I'm amongst people who will go to war for this against Seymour and his mates. Now Mr Luxon can get all disappointed with me. I'm just giving you a warning from the people who are saying to me, 'they'd better not go through [with it].'"

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301003601/people-will-go-to-war-against-seymour-and-his-mates-labour-mp-says

      WTF….lets have a civil war ahead of a discussion?…..6 months is too long, resign now for the good of the country.

      • Belladonna 2.1.1
        7 November 2023 at 7:05 pm

        It's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the current Labour Maori caucus.

        And, really, what can he do inside Parliament (apart from voting against – which will achieve nothing if the Government have the numbers) – that he can't do outside Parliament?

        If he's forecasting civil unrest – then he can be involved just as well (if not better) outside Parliament. I don't recall Dame Whina Cooper as being an MP – but she certainly had a much greater impact on the history of our country than Willie Jackson has.

        It sounds more like a parachute – I might need 6 months of my Parliamentary salary to find a new job.

        • pat 2.1.1.1
          7 November 2023 at 7:24 pm

          Its an ongoing theme from Willie…but after the election result I thought he may have pulled his head in a bit (as did JT post election) …instead he appears to be doubling down.

          Who are the ones being divisive?

          • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.1
            7 November 2023 at 7:31 pm

            Sounds very Trumpian to me. What does "go to war" mean? Occupy Parliament?

            • pat 2.1.1.1.1.1
              7 November 2023 at 7:39 pm

              What indeed….but of course he would never advocate violence.

              Labour has more problems than they know.

      • Muttonbird 2.1.2
        7 November 2023 at 8:13 pm

        It's not really a discussion though, it's a referendum which ACT and some National funders will throw their entire racist marketing might against the The Treaty and Maori.

        This would be the referendum which they, calling on their colonial settler past, have their best change to bury Te Ao Maori forever. They'll try to slip it in under the guise of a benign looking "discussion".

        Jackson knows the importance of what Seymour proposes and is front footing the response, the only response under represented peoples can produce against the wealth white and powerful…direct action.

        I’m surprised people buy into the idea it’s just a discussion. This is where our supposed democracy is weakest. The racist David Seymour knows it and he will attack with every resource he’s able to.

        • pat 2.1.2.1
          7 November 2023 at 8:35 pm

          Before any referendum there would have to be a discussion as to what the referendum is voting on….as Willie et al well know.

          The threat of violence is being used to silence that discussion.

          Do we support an open democracy or not?….it would seem that increasing many do not.

          • Muttonbird 2.1.2.1.1
            7 November 2023 at 8:40 pm

            There will not be any discussion on what the referendum is voting on. The referendum question will just appear as a sidecar at the next election. No public consultancy will be considered on this question and particularly no Maori consultancy will be considered on this question. The last because the reason for the referendum is specifically to reject any future consultation with Maori at all.

            I wonder which country you live in because violent demonstration is extremely rare in NZ.

            I also wonder wether you grasp that democracy can have weak points. We see the weak points a lot in local democracy where only the wealthy engaged vote. When this happens, the supposed legitimate democratic result is anything but legitimate.

            • pat 2.1.2.1.1.1
              7 November 2023 at 8:52 pm

              Im glad you think you know how any referendum on the significance of the Treaty to our governance will be conducted, it must be highly beneficial to have such a crystal ball.

              Given the significance of the ToW I expect that any referendum would be afforded the same scrutiny that was applied to the MMP referendum…which involved considerable discussion, debate and examination.

              As to democracy, we as a species spent centuries fighting for a system that didnt rely on either birthright or violence and to discard it because it isnt perfect is the height of foolishness.

              • Peter …
                7 November 2023 at 9:19 pm

                Given the significance of the ToW? To whom?

                And as for fighting for a system that didn't rely on either birthright or violence and to discard it? How will a referendum to get rid of the Treaty go? Those who want Māori subjugated or killed off, metaphorically in some cases, will be champing at the bit for Seymour to get into full flow.

                • pat …
                  7 November 2023 at 9:27 pm

                  "Given the significance of the ToW? To whom?"

                  To anyone living in NZ …whether you understand, recognise, promote or disagree with it, it has an increasing impact on the lives of NZers.

                  "How will a referendum to get rid of the Treaty go?"

                  I dont believe I have seen/heard of a call for a referendum to dispose of the ToW….the proposal from ACT is for a clarification of the principles of the ToW and how it applies to our governance.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    7 November 2023 at 9:57 pm

                    In legislation speak, this is a referendum which will render the intention and concepts of Te Tiriti diluted and homogenised at best, and meaningless at worst.

                    It'll make the seabed and foreshore hikoi look like a small local gathering.

                    All good if you want this fight, just be ready.

                  • weka …
                    7 November 2023 at 10:02 pm

                    the purpose of rewriting the principles is to remove undermine the Treaty and decades of case law and process that has been developed to redress the wrongs of colonisation and create a partnership between Iwi and the Crown.

                    The intention is assimilationist. ACT aren't stupid enough to try and dispose of the Treaty, this is the next best thing.

                    • pat …
                      7 November 2023 at 10:16 pm

                      ACTs intentions may be as as you state but that dosnt mean a referendum will provide them….some who advocated for electoral change sought STV…they got change but not the change they wanted.

                      And there were strong opinions (and no shortage of nutters) with the electoral reform referendum(s) and we coped quite well with that.

                      As stated previously, this is an issue that is going to have to addressed at some point and the longer a serious discussion is avoided the greater the room for extreme views to take hold.

                    • weka []
                      7 November 2023 at 10:26 pm

                      I agree that the discussion needs to be had seriously and soon. A referendum is the worst possible way to do that. Trying to monkey wrench the Treaty will cause a constitutional crisis and I agree with others that there will be levels of protest we haven’t seen in a long time, perhaps not ever. Leaving aside whatever rhetoric Jackson is using, this will face major opposition from Māori and non-Māori, precisely because it’s an utterly dick move.

                      The comparison with the MMP referendum doesn’t hold on two counts.

                      1. the MMP referendum had major activism behind it to ensure that the issues got widely debated. But different times, we have social media manipulation now that puts the Business Roundtable shenanigans to shame.
                      2. MMP was an attempt to increase democratic representation, and this intention was clear and up front. ACT’s intention is to remove power from a section of society who by international law have a right to that power, and to do so in an unclear way, and likely to use trumpian politics which will further entrench the culture wars.
                    • Muttonbird …
                      7 November 2023 at 10:27 pm

                      It's kind of obscene to equate rewriting the Treaty of Waitangi to the move to from FPP to MMP, but I acknowledge that from some people's view point they are similar issues.

                    • pat …
                      7 November 2023 at 10:40 pm

                      "Few of Labour's leaders welcomed the commission's recommendations, however, and the government tried to sideline the issue. Although National's leadership also disliked the idea of MMP, they saw an opportunity to embarrass the government over its failure to respond to the commission's proposals. The issue was also kept alive through the efforts of an effective lobby group, the Electoral Reform Coalition, led by Colin Clarke, Rod Donald and Phil Saxby and others. As each party tried to outmanoeuvre the other, both Labour and National entered the 1990 election campaign promising to hold referenda on electoral reforms that they did not particularly want.

                      The Labour government was heavily defeated in the 1990 election, but its National successor was soon under fire for breaking election promises. Confidence and trust in politicians and Parliament plunged to new depths. Polls showed that politicians ranked alongside used-car salespeople as the least-respected occupational group in the country. Public support for electoral reform continued to grow."

                      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp/royal-commission

                      Snap!

                    • weka []
                      7 November 2023 at 10:54 pm

                      what’s your point here Pat? yes, parts of the political classes didn’t want MMP. And?

                    • pat …
                      7 November 2023 at 11:23 pm

                      The major parties didnt want electoral reform and they ignored the electorate…their reputation plummeted and the public push for a say in that reform forced the reluctant politicians to listen to the population.

                      The politicians (especially of the major parties) are again refusing to listen to the growing public disquiet and their reputation is again at the lowest of points.

                      The circumstances are akin

                      Whether ACT succeeds in having its referendum this time is largely moot…the issue will only grow in significance for the electorate until the politicians are forced to address it.

              • bwaghorn …
                7 November 2023 at 9:30 pm

                the same scrutiny that was applied to the MMP referendum

                Ya reckon , in zids become a angry place inhabited by a sizable % of morons since mmp days , look at what happened during covid!

                Rational debate won't happen while big money right wing loons like act andctheir supporters are involved, they'll stoke the fires of racism, anger and fear.

                • pat …
                  7 November 2023 at 9:38 pm

                  Given the 'morons' and polarisation the only way a referendum could be successfully held is if it was treated with the same care and gravitas as was afforded the MMP referendum….as it should be.

                  The fact of the matter is the discussion (and referendum) will have to occur at some point …if we seek to have a written constitution or decide to replace the UK based monarch as our head of state.

                  • adam …
                    8 November 2023 at 2:20 am

                    If this really is your point, why the cheap Maori bashing along the way?

                    Why even discuss the treaty principles, if want you really want it to change the constitution?

                    The reality is, it's the usual bullshit racism, which you do a nice job of trying to hide pat. But bugger me, if it's not the same old shit being peddled by the same cocksuckers. Who delight is divide and rule coupled with bashing brown.

                    Here's the rub for the racist cocksuckers – Maori have had enough of this divide and rule coupled with bashing brown crap.

                    • pat …
                      8 November 2023 at 9:23 am

                      Is your only argument about our governing arrangements to throw baseless accusations of racism?

                      You may be happy to allow a small cadre of elites to determine in secret how our democracy is to function but I prefer the opportunity to have those arrangements publicly debated and put to the test of public opinion…..thats what a democracy does.

                      I have yet to see anyone here (or in the MSM) be able to explain what the practical implications of basing our governance upon the ToW involves.

                      Unconditional support of something undefined is little more than mindless faith…..if that is what is required then we have become a theocracy.

                      Bugger that for a bad joke.

                    • adam …
                      8 November 2023 at 11:56 am

                      How fragile are you.

                      Can't even answer simple questions with out making shit up.

                      We have a constitutional monarchy, did you miss the memo. In our case the monarch signed a deal with the indigenous populations called The Treaty of Waitangi. To protect their and the settler populations rights.

                      You have a choice, learn what the The Treaty of Waitangi say and means for all parties. Study the court cases which have driven how governments reacts The Treaty of Waitangi. (you know the government stole a whole lot more land, in reaction to a ruling on the seabed and foreshore) And actually act like a citizen who understands how democracy works.

                      Why do I have to explain to you if you are to lazy to actually do any leg work ? It's all there on public record. Instead we have lazy dog whistle racist shit from act and there corporate dogs, pretending this is about democracy. Democracy means you actually have to participate, not punch down when you don't like something.

              • Muttonbird …
                7 November 2023 at 9:46 pm

                I'd say democracy fails anytime not 100% of people are canvassed. It is a flawed system and the proof is in my previous sentence.

                Practically, it means the very referendum question has to be democratically agreed to. Practically, it means spend caps on marketing opinion. Practically it means people are free to express their opinion in person.

              • weka …
                7 November 2023 at 10:05 pm

                As to democracy, we as a species spent centuries fighting for a system that didnt rely on either birthright or violence and to discard it because it isnt perfect is the height of foolishness.

                The point isn't to discard democracy but to improve it. The current form of democracy we use disadvantages Māori because it is majority rules and Māori aren't the majority.

                There are other forms of democracy we can be using instead.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

                • pat …
                  7 November 2023 at 10:22 pm

                  Maori are not homogenous or of hivemind….as the recent election demonstrated.

                  If you advocate a change to our democratic system then you have the opportunity to describe it and convince the citizens to vote for it….thats the benefit of democracy.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    7 November 2023 at 10:30 pm

                    Maori are not homogenous or of hivemind.

                    This is another tool of the colonist and the powerful. Divide and weaken dissent by appealing to individuality and undermining the collective.

    • SPC 2.2
      7 November 2023 at 9:48 pm

      Don't worry Seymour won't have to explain why he wants to threaten Maori with the loss of their Treaty rights by settler majority mandate – looking like Oz while giving the fingers to UNDRIP and the Paris Accord is too much even for National (the world market for our exports is watching).

  3. Incognito 3
    7 November 2023 at 6:59 pm

    Given that a Green MP is being hounded over six words rather than genuinely debating the issue, I think this is appropriate:

    “What we're really trying to do is not refute the actual arguments someone's making, but show how that person is, in some sense, bad or not worthy of listening to or fit to ignore.”

    Intellectually this is a tactic, he says.

    “As we say in the book, winning arguments without actually winning arguments.

    “That is defeating someone, so to speak, in a rhetorical battle, without even having to address their ideas.”

    Cancel culture is not the preserve exclusively of the left, he says.

    “We have we have several chapters where we talk about cancel culture on the right.”

    But he says a “perfect rhetorical fortress” has developed on the left, because it “grew up in academia”.

    “It is just layer after layer after layer of ways to not have to address the substance of someone’s argument.”

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018913373/new-book-puts-cancel-culture-in-spotlight

    Good article, worth the read (unless you have an RNZ allergy).

    • SPC 3.1
      7 November 2023 at 7:14 pm

      “There's a great Aldous Huxley quote that says if you want to create a movement, give people the opportunity to be cruel to another person, but feel self-righteous in doing that.”

      Where cancel culture meets a day out to watch a public execution – hung drawn and quartered, or the guillotine.

      And by being in the majority on a media platform (or the management or owners or moderators) …

      • Incognito 3.1.1
        7 November 2023 at 7:55 pm

        Robust debate is a rare commodity, nowadays, and politics and media (platforms) are simultaneously cause & consequence of this.

        • SPC 3.1.1.1
          7 November 2023 at 8:05 pm

          Sure I've been on all sorts of sites – Kiwiblog in the minority – before then the old MSN boards. Being told one was a rag head squatting on the West Bank to a Zionist *********** for expressing the same opine (two state peace process) on two different ME blogs was a good primer for 21st C social media.

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1
            7 November 2023 at 8:28 pm

            My concern is that a ‘good primer’ can be a euphemism for desensitised and cynical even, which is not a good basis for respectful debate or human connection, for that matter …

            • SPC 3.1.1.1.1.1
              7 November 2023 at 8:43 pm

              No more a case of experiencing the nature of tribalism. One is either deterred by it, or remain on that righteous path of sophia – not pandering to barbarians of either side.

              'Barbarian' is derived from the ancient Greek word 'bárbaros', meaning babbler, and was used to describe people from non-Greek speaking countries such as Persia and Egypt, who, to Greek ears, sounded like they were make unintelligible sounds (ba-ba-ba).

              https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=barbarian+origin+of+word

              There are two types of debate – contested positions and where people are looking for common ground.

              • Incognito …
                7 November 2023 at 9:01 pm

                We all choose our path, whether we know it or not …

                Tribalism feeds [on] the innate desire and need for belonging and a safe haven if not [a] home.

            • SPC 3.1.1.1.1.2
              7 November 2023 at 8:56 pm

              Sometimes there is contested debate until there is, or with, agreement on common ground.

              But the point of the book was that this is occurring less and less.

  4. joe90 4
    7 November 2023 at 7:29 pm

    Finally, something good about the use of smart phones and AI.

    .

    Acoustic Analysis and Prediction of Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Using Smartphone-Recorded Voice Segments

    Abstract

    Objective

    To investigate the potential of voice analysis as a prescreening or monitoring tool for type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM) by examining the differences in voice recordings between nondiabetic and T2DM individuals.

    […]

    .

    Conclusion

    Overall, vocal changes occur in individuals with T2DM compared with those without T2DM. Voice analysis shows potential as a prescreening or monitoring tool for T2DM, particularly when combined with other risk factors associated with the condition.

    https://www.mcpdigitalhealth.org/article/S2949-7612(23)00073-1/fulltext

  5. SPC 5
    7 November 2023 at 8:20 pm

    A TVNZ commentator is playing semantics with the Hipkins call to have no wealth tax after the election.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/07/felix-desmarais-hipkins-weasel-words-on-tax-serve-no-one/

    He should note previous PM's making calls not to do stuff while they are PM. That is a commitment beyond an electoral cycle.

    Hipkins said not after the election – because generally a party has a manifesto that lasts 3 years. People get what they vote for and after 2026 they may be able to vote for a Labour/Green/TPM coalition in accord on some form of wealth tax.

    • observer 5.1
      7 November 2023 at 9:02 pm

      If Felix is confused by "we lost, so we review what we promised", then he's going to be apoplectic when he hears "we won, and we're not doing what we promised".

      Coming soon.

    • observer 6.1
      7 November 2023 at 9:07 pm

      Better sort that out fast. Otherwise Leighton Baker wins the Port Waikato by-election … Luxon says he "will not rule out" a coalition deal …

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