Daily review 22/05/2023

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, May 22nd, 2023 - 47 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

47 comments on “Daily review 22/05/2023 ”

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  1. Ed1 1
    22 May 2023 at 5:44 pm

    Not that long ago I recall another country lamenting their excess deaths and making a comparison with New Zealand's exceptional performance, but now I cannot remember where I saw it. Can anyone help?

    • Phillip ure 1.1
      22 May 2023 at 6:15 pm

      You could google it…and you will find our death rate in the pre-vaccine period is (from memory)..right down there.. especially when compared with the likes of denier-trump america..

      The reason I remember this is that for me it underlined what can never be taken away from jacinda ardern..

      That is the large number of nz lives that were saved ('cos of her lockdowns)…

      That was down to her..

  2. The Chairman 2
    22 May 2023 at 5:51 pm

    A former union leader and Labour Party activist is establishing a Women’s Rights Party.

    https://womensrightsparty.nz/putting-womens-rights-on-the-ballot-in-october/

    Wonder what impact they will make? How long before they are labelled Nazis?

    [We’re all trying hard to lift the debate here on TS, especially around women’s issues, and then you come along with this unnecessary needling and misogynist provocation that could easily start flame wars. I consider it inciting violence and this site has a strong Policy against violence. Do it again and you won’t be commenting here till sometime after the General Election – Incognito]

    • Phillip ure 2.1
      22 May 2023 at 6:17 pm

      Not nazis..but definitely trans-bashers..

      [We’re all trying hard to lift the debate here on TS, especially around women’s issues, and then you come along with this unnecessary needling and misogynist provocation that could easily start flame wars. I consider it inciting violence and this site has a strong Policy against violence. Do it again and you won’t be commenting here till sometime after the General Election – Incognito]

    • Incognito 2.2
      22 May 2023 at 6:29 pm

      Mod note

    • The Chairman 2.3
      22 May 2023 at 6:38 pm

      Misogynist and inciting violence?????

      I’m not calling them Nazis nor am I calling for any violence.

      • Incognito 2.3.1
        22 May 2023 at 6:57 pm

        Wondering aloud when (not if) others might resort to verbal violence against (some) women lowers the threshold to do exactly that. It was utterly unnecessary to open the door (or trap, rather) for others to go through. Instead, you could have initiated a mature and constructive political conversation about a new political party on a political blog site. Don’t waste my time!

        • The Chairman 2.3.1.1
          23 May 2023 at 4:25 pm

          Bit late mate. That lower threshold is already upon us.

          Sadly, in the current political environment the bar has become that low.

          The link below is an example of where we are already at. Not to mention the real physical violence that also took place against women at the event.

          Remember the Let Women Speak event? Here is a response to that. No less, from one of our MPs. Note the heading above the picture in the tweet.

          https://twitter.com/golrizghahraman/status/1639380952131715072

          Therefore, in this current environment (where the bar is already that low) the question is extremely valid.

          • Incognito 2.3.1.1.1
            23 May 2023 at 5:48 pm

            Why then stomp on it when it is already down and going down further? Why not try lifting the bar instead?

            You and I have no control over the Twitter sphere but we can influence the tone & content here on this blog site and we can call out others if/when required (and ban them if/when necessary). We can try steering things towards constructive & respectful discourse.

            You don’t invite verbal violence by speculating about it the way you did without reason or cause.

            Your Mod note stays firmly in place!

            PS you have wasted enough of my time on this, so move on.

  3. Phillip ure 3
    22 May 2023 at 6:30 pm

    Rnz doing a moral panic number on the cocaine flooding into australia..

    I would just like to note that of all the drugs I gave up.. cocaine was the easiest to kick…

    Compared to tobacco/alcohol/heroin/crack cocaine/barbiturates etc… it's a breeze..

    And on a slightly different tack..I actually think that with the gold card should come the access to pharmaceutical cocaine..

    It would put a spring into the step and a sparkle into the eyes of those officially retired…

    And why not..?… where's the harm..?

  4. bwaghorn 4
    22 May 2023 at 6:38 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/490413/ratio-of-sheep-to-people-drops-below-five-to-one-for-first-time-in-170-years

    2%drop in sheep in 1 year, but over 40%in 30 years.

    8%drop in dairy cows in 5 years.

    Hope this is being noticed by the powers that be .

    • Phillip ure 4.1
      22 May 2023 at 6:48 pm

      You ain't seen nothing yet…

      The rise of animal suffering free/small environmental footprint lab-grown meats is going to decimate the animal exploitation industries our economy seems to rely upon..

      I also hope our powers that be are taking notice…

      And planning for this upcoming seachange..

      • bwaghorn 4.1.1
        22 May 2023 at 7:12 pm

        I'm all for lab meat , it's theory way we can colonise space,.

        Can you answer my favorite? For people such as your self in a nz context.

        If we stopped all meat eating what would we do to control the rampant wild pig,deer and goat populations that would explode?

        • Phillip ure 4.1.1.1
          22 May 2023 at 7:33 pm

          The reality is that there will always be people who get off on killing..

          It would likely be done under the umbrella of pest control..

          I find it difficult..as a member of the apex predators..man/woman to pass judgement on animal 'pests'..

          I would just let it roll,.and see what happens..

          With all the animal exploitation 'farms' closing down…there will be plenty of room for all..

          Live and let live..

          • Belladonna 4.1.1.1.1
            22 May 2023 at 7:44 pm

            If there is no control of the feral pig, deer, possum, mustelid and rodent population (control, being a euphemism for killing) – then we will have very little native wildlife left in NZ.

            Is it more moral to kill off those animals and leave them to rot; or to kill them off and use their meat and skin?

            • Phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1.1
              22 May 2023 at 9:15 pm

              Humans are the biggest pest…we have wiped out the native species…not possums..not cats..

              Us…

              In just a couple of hundred years..we have fucken decimated what was an iteration of paradise..

              Any finger pointing should be straight back at ourselves..

              • Belladonna …
                23 May 2023 at 10:40 am

                That's a nice philosophical statement. Although, you might want to extend the 'couple of hundred years' to the arrival of humans to the islands which would become NZ.

                In practical terms what do you propose to do about it? Reduce population growth (Chinese 1 child policy)?
                The possible alternatives go downhill from there. Are you proposing widescale euthanasia?

                Personally, regardless of decisions which were made in the past (and, which actually my personal ancestors had no voice in) – I prefer to make the attempt to retain as much of NZ's native flora and fauna as possible. And, in utterly practical terms, that requires reduction and elimination (if possible) of a wide range of animal pests.

                It seems that you don't.

                • Phillip ure …
                  23 May 2023 at 11:04 am

                  No…I don't support'widespread euthanasia..

                  And I think the only way to restore native flora/is to do what has already been shown to work..

                  Namely approaching it like one would eating an elephant ..one bite at a time..fencing off areas…and letting them come back..piece by piece..

                  Unsure why you dived down the one child policy rabbit hole..

                  There is plenty of room in this country for more people..

                  (Did you know the Japanese call nz the empty islands..same size as japan..and largely empty…we have heaps of room..)

                  And yes maori burnt off/extinguished some species..

                  But seriously..it has been pakeha who have so fucked the place over..

                  Most of the country has been turned into an animal fattening yard…

                  That all has to change..and some of those changes will be forced upon us (ie..lab-meat killing our killing floors..)

                  And just out of interest…your thoughts on the way forward..?

                  Just more of the same..?

                  • Belladonna …
                    23 May 2023 at 12:34 pm

                    You brought up the devastation that humanity has caused. But somehow think that increasing the population would be a good thing.

                    More people = less space for wildlife. Or do you think that Japan (since that's the example you chose) is a shining example of retention of native wildlife.

                    Fencing off areas (cf Zealandia, and offshore islands) only works with a very heavy trapping elimination programme. Certainly in Auckland, DoC swings into urgent action every time there is evidence of rats/possums, etc. on the sanctuary islands. Predators are *highly* motivated to get through fences, and, in the absence of active management, that's exactly what they do.

                    Way forward?

                    Control of introduced pest animals. Heavy culling, 1080, genetic engineering – whatever it takes for the native wildlife to have a chance at regenerating (and we can see from where that has worked successfully, that it will do so, if given space).

                    Agricultural exports (beef, milk, lamb, etc.) are a very significant component of our trade balance with the rest of the world.

                    If you are envisaging these disappearing, what do you propose to replace them with?

                    Because, I can guarantee that the rest of NZ doesn't want to do without the overseas products that we trade for them (all the medical equipment in our hospitals, all of the tech that we are using to connect with each other and the rest of the world, large elements of our basic food supply, etc.)

                    My pick, is as I said above – real meat will become a luxury item, with a luxury price tag – and NZ will switch to supplying that market. Which we can do very effectively (open spaces, mild climate, year-round growing conditions, etc.).

                    That may well result in a reduction of the amount of land which is taken up by farming. The question is what (high-end, added value) product/s we can utilize this space for?

                    Our track record in this has currently been abysmal. All of those conversions to forestry for the purpose of shipping raw logs off to China (the lowest possible income stream).

                    I'm, personally, not in favour of turning it into mega-cities to house a vastly increased population because we have "heaps of room".

                    It is possible that though shifting to supply of high-end, rather than mid-price agricultural products, that we'll be able to afford to return more marginal or ecologically sensitive areas, currently in farmland, back into native parks (bush, wetlands, tussock). Which will, of course, require not just fencing, but active management as above. I'd love to be seeing takahe and kakapo (for example) in significant mainland areas.

                    • Phillip ure …
                      23 May 2023 at 6:44 pm

                      More people..living much more sustainably than we do.. wouldn't be a problem.

                      There is middle ground between empty islands and megacities..

                      And I must repeat that the decimation of our animal flesh export industries will happen because of outside forces..

                      And just saying you don't want it to happen.. won't stop it happening..

                      Our meat industries can be compared to the owners of the infrastructure for a horse based transport industries..just before the arrival of their great disrupter..the motor car..

                      They didn't want that to happen either..it didn't stop it tho'..

                      And of course current animal fatteners can see the writing on the wall..and change to being farmers… growing real food…

                      Those who just stick their heads in the sand..will be swept away by these winds of change…

                      And/but of course this discussion of the infrastructure of these vile/cruel industries ignores the philosophical imperatives..

                      A very smart person..einstein..said that in the future humanity will view how we currently treat/exploit animals with the same abhorrence that we now regard human slavery..

                  • Belladonna …
                    23 May 2023 at 6:57 pm

                    Well, you think our animal export industries will be decimated. I think that they'll pivot to luxury trade. After all, the trade in breeding racehorses, went right on – completely unaffected by the switch from horse-drawn carriages to automobiles.

                    Only time will tell who is right.

                    If I'm right, then NZ will be able to continue to pay for our first world lifestyle. If you're right (since you haven't been able to come up with even one alternative export idea) – NZ will rapidly have a substantial drop in living standards (the current cost-of-living crisis will be peanuts by comparison).
                    Note that the current switch away from dairy (encouraged by Government incentives) has been to forestry – the lowest added value trade there is.

                    Housing intensity is one of those things that many people feel is good in abstract, but turn into NIMBYs the moment they, personally, are affected.

                    Are you going to put your hand up to have a medium-rise (only 5 floors) block of flats put up on your side boundary? It will only take away the sun from your house for 6 hours a day.

                    • Phillip ure …
                      23 May 2023 at 7:31 pm

                      I talk on this subject because I want the animal suffering to end…but also to try to alert others to these upcoming massive changes we will face..

                      And I have no prescription for seeing off this disruption..what to pivot to..

                      I understand james cameron has been doing this on his wairarapa farms…experimenting with different crops to confirm which are best for the animal fatteners to convert to..

                      And I think his intention is/was to make the results of these experiments availabile to the animal 'farmers'..

                      And I want the government to pull their heads out of the sand..and to get cracking/put their thinking caps on..

                      To prepare for these changes..

                    • Phillip ure …
                      23 May 2023 at 9:09 pm

                      Yep.. that's him…he must need the money..

                      That report is from over two years ago..

                      Any featherston readers able to give us an update..?

          • bwaghorn 4.1.1.1.2
            22 May 2023 at 7:45 pm

            Ta

      • joe90 4.1.2
        22 May 2023 at 9:19 pm

        The rise of animal suffering free/small environmental footprint lab-grown meats

        Or not.

        Recent sales of The Alternative Meat Co. products in Australia have not been at a level that allows for continued production at an affordable price for consumers.

        Unfortunately as it is not possible to make these products here, from July 2022 we have withdrawn the range from the New Zealand market.

        https://lifehealthfoods.co.nz/goodbye-amc/

        The challenges in the marketplace in the UK and overseas are reflected in values of the leading specialist vegan food manufacturers, which in some cases have plummeted. Shares in meat-free brand Beyond Meat have crashed, down from more than $230 after it went public on the Nasdaq stock exchange in May 2019 to about $11. The meat-free market in the US is described by experts as “stagnating”.

        […]

        “There has been a gold rush followed by a cull. There were too many products on the shelf for the volume of sales.”

        https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/may/20/has-the-vegan-bubble-burst-sales-stagnate-in-uk-as-brands-withdraw-plant-based-products?

        • Phillip ure 4.1.2.1
          22 May 2023 at 9:36 pm

          Text book use of links to mislead..

          Beyond meat is not lab grown meat..for starters..

          That industry is just in it's infancy…

          Give it five years..and your much cheaper animal suffering free kobe beef will be in yr supermarket..

          I haven't eaten animal flesh for about 45 yrs..

          And i don't eat the fake meats myself..

          Have no desire for a near meat culinary experience…

          And the explosion of plant based options in my local supermarket puts yr last rites in the wrong basket..

          • joe90 4.1.2.1.1
            22 May 2023 at 10:16 pm

            Give it five years..and your much cheaper animal suffering free kobe beef will be in yr supermarket..

            A snip. And then there's the yuck factor.

            The cost to produce cell-cultured meat is projected for a large-scale plant.

            […]

            • The wholesale cost of cell-cultured meat is optimistically projected to be as low as $63/kg.
            • A retail price of $18 or more for a 0.14 kg hamburger will impede consumer adoption.

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666154322000916

            • Phillip ure 4.1.2.1.1.1
              23 May 2023 at 7:45 am

              You really are on a bender with those misleading links..eh..?

              Your yuck link claims 35% of carnivores are disgusted by the idea of lab grown meat..

              Of course that would also mean 65% of carnivores aren't disgusted by the concept..eh..?

              Which means yr link supports what I am saying..

              Eh..?.

              Heh..!

            • tWiggle 4.1.2.1.1.2
              23 May 2023 at 1:34 pm

              In fact, industrial-scale cell-culture is an art and not a science. AI may change this, but this process needs bioengineers with green-thumbs, someone working at Callaghan Innovation told me.

              When a big 20,000 L batch goes bad, through insterility, the fact that the cell line is getting past its use-by date, or because the manufactured hormones used to direct growth are substandard, that's a huge capital loss. Add the cost of reconditioning the equipment. Which is why cell-culture at this scale is limited to high-value pharma to date.

              There may also be 5-10 years' research before this step from your ref is achieved: " assuming huge technological advances in the cell-culture medium." It's even possible that vat-grown 'meat' will be a hybrid of plant and animal materials, with muscle fibres grown on a pre-made soy protein scaffold.

              Our body is hardwired to feed itself essentials. I remember the first thing I did on getting home after a 10-day freeze-dry meal tramp was cook up a bit of liver in the fridge. I hate liver, but my body went EAT IT! NOW! Peasant recipes all throw a bit of meat in the legume stew, to get enough B12, and add some protein-dense nutrition, and use cheese and eggs where they can.

              Many in the UK, the epicentre of faked meat products, recently went vegan for animal welfare reasons. To be a healthy vegan requires careful nutrition, and manufactured non-meat sausages and rissoles are not enough. Two years on, and the tiredness brought on by nutritional imbalance or lack of something essential has made a lot of recent vegans rethink their diet choices.

              • Phillip ure …
                23 May 2023 at 5:00 pm

                Who are these pussy 'recent vegans..?

                Like I said I don't go for fake meats…have been vegan for 20 + yrs..

                I am old..like really old..heh..!..and today I did four hours hard physical labour..(just having a after work coffee + joint ..)

                So…y'know…!

        • Belladonna 4.1.2.2
          23 May 2023 at 10:49 am

          I have to say that I'm struggling to understand how a highly processed meat-alternative (requiring a significant investment in equipment and infrastruction, and ongoing operating costs) can be a solution which is better for the planet.

          That may be the case in areas like Singapore (one of the front-runners, I understand), where they have no land on which to grow anything. But much of the overseas coverage on this topic talks about the high-intensity farming (feedlots, routine antibiotics, etc.) which are rare in NZ.

          From the ethical perspective, I can understand the attraction of 'cruelty-free' meat. However, it seems that at least some of the more …. extreme vegetarians/vegans (as evidenced by the comments here), wouldn't accept this, anyway.

          My pick would be that 'real' meat will become a luxury item (with luxury pricing), and that the vat-grown meat will become the staple.

          • Phillip ure 4.1.2.2.1
            23 May 2023 at 5:13 pm

            Lab grown vs animal flesh..

            Lab grown has a very small environmental footprint.. compared with the animal stuff…

            Also.. especially relevant for nz..it can be made locally in a warehouse.. doesn't need to be transported to the other side of the world..

            When the industry matures economies of scale and market forces will drive prices further down.. and I agree with your prediction of animal based becoming a high end product..and lab for most..

            And of course the fast food industries will be the early adopters..driven by low cost..and to be able to boast of being green..

            You seem to think that vegans not that keen on lab meat..is somehow strange..

            Lab grown meat is not for the likes of me..and most other vegans I know..we all go 'yuck..!'

            It is for carnivores addicted to the sensation of eating animal-flesh..

            • Belladonna 4.1.2.2.1.1
              23 May 2023 at 6:17 pm

              So no ideas, then, on what would work to plug the hole that this transition might make in our balance of payments?
              Or do you agree that NZ farmers will just shift to the high-end luxury supply for 'real' meat? [That has its own risks – but the truly wealthy are prepared to pay almost anything – as we see from the ridiculous prices paid in Japan for 'perfect' fruit, or large tuna]

              The articles I've read have been around lab-based meat fulfilling the mass-market needs (for chicken and pork) in Asian countries – with their expanding middle-class. But I agree that it will be an easy greenwashing win for the fast-food chains. Although it's anything but low-cost ATM – I can see prices will fall.
              Mind you – I'd be pretty concerned over quality and possibility of contamination – but that's the case with many products imported from countries without a solid food quality supply chain checking system now (Hepatitis A in frozen fruit from Serbia is just one of the latest).

              The 'yuck' factor is interesting. Many omnivores I know also go 'yuck' at the thought of eating lab-grown meat. Sounds like an uphill battle for the marketers :-). Although, I know several vegetarians who have made that choice over ethical concerns over animal welfare – they'd be ecstatic to be able to ethically eat bacon again!

              • Phillip ure …
                23 May 2023 at 7:50 pm

                Just to clarify something..lab meat is real meat..it is grown from cells taken from animals…and will be indistinguishable from the dead animal one in flavour/taste..

                So unsure why those people you know go 'yuck..!'..

                And tell those vegetarians you know who are jonesing for bacon..that I've been told some of the current fake ones are getting pretty close to the real thing..

                And yes..I see many vegetarians using lab-meat..more so than vegans..

                Vegetarian is closer to carnivore than to vegan..

                And animal fatteners relying on that high end of the market..will find that is a very crowded market..

                • Belladonna …
                  23 May 2023 at 8:05 pm

                  Guess the 'yuck' factor is over the highly processed part. Sourced from a factory. Most 'foodies' are into food tracking – knowing where the ingredients come from. Black Angus cattle on XYZ farm just outside Cambridge is a much better selling point than Digestor no. 9 in an anonymous warehouse in South Auckland.

                  [Yes, of course this isn't applicable to McDonalds – though I did have the tour guide to Hobbiton tell us that the cattle we were driving past were McDonalds beef]

                  ATM, it's all theoretical – none of us have actually seen or tasted the product, so have no idea over whether it really will be indistinguishable from 'real' meat.
                  If you're talking about chicken nuggets – then it probably doesn't matter – they're already highly processed – but top-end eye-fillet is a different story.

                  Having ethical-vegetarians as a possible market is a good thing – there are a lot more of them, than there are vegans. None of the ones I know would give tuppence for any of the current fake bacon substitutes.

                  NZ already has a pretty good success story with premium pricing our wines in a crowded luxury market – I don't see why we wouldn't be equally as successful with meat.

                  BTW – it's 'omnivore' rather than 'carnivore'. Very, very few people eat nothing but meat.

                  • joe90 …
                    23 May 2023 at 8:10 pm

                    Guess the 'yuck' factor is over the highly processed part.

                    And the techniques/mediums currently in use.

                    https://archive.li/BkRsv#selection-4055.0-4055.5 (goodfoodinstitute)

                    • Belladonna …
                      23 May 2023 at 8:18 pm

                      Whew! That's a cold dose of reality on the 'ethical' side.

                      It won't matter for the current Asian market – where animal welfare is not a significant factor. But would have a very chilling effect on many Western potential consumers.

                      It also reinforces the concerns I had over contamination issues. The GIGO principle at work. If your inputs aren't high quality then your output is likely to be rubbish.

                    • joe90 …
                      23 May 2023 at 8:44 pm

                      But welfare is paramount.

                      /

                      Guidelines

                      The welfare of calves during slaughter of pregnant animals should be safeguarded.

                      • If uterine, placental or foetal tissues, including foetal blood, are not to be collected as part of the post-slaughter processing of pregnant animals, the foetus should be left inside the unopened uterus.
                      • When uterine, placental or foetal tissues (not foetal blood) are to be collected, the foetus should not be removed from the uterus until at least 15–20 minutes after the cow is slaughtered.
                      • When foetal blood is to be collected, the foetus should not be removed from the uterus until at least 5 minutes after the cow is slaughtered. At this stage, the foetus should be unconscious. A foetal heartbeat will usually still be present and foetal movements may occur. These are only a cause for concern if the exposed foetus begins to breathe air.
                      • If a live mature foetus is removed from the uterus, it should be prevented from breathing air and inflating its lungs — for example, by clamping the trachea.
                      • If there is any doubt about consciousness of the foetus, it should be killed with a captive bolt or a blow to the head with a suitable blunt instrument.

                      https://www.ava.com.au/policy-advocacy/policies/cattle-health-and-welfare/foetal-bovine-serum-collection/

                  • Phillip ure …
                    23 May 2023 at 8:30 pm

                    I just googled carnivore..the definition is 'an animal that eats other animals'..

                    That is the flesh-eating human.. surely..?

                    And sourced from a factory..or sourced from a charnal house..?

                    I think the latter has the higher yuck factor..

                    And this is all no longer theoretical…we are way past there

                    Different groups..with serious money behind them are in an arms race..to get this to market…in a big way..

                    They know how high the stakes are here..

  5. adam 5
    22 May 2023 at 8:11 pm

    WOW, just wow. How good are the Australian labour party with fixing up tax loop hole for corporations. Bloody awesome is the only answer.

    Just one more reason not to vote for the Tories, we need this here. And face reality folks only a labour led government can deliver on it.

    https://cictar.org/news/cictar-welcomes-australia-cbcr

    And this link for fun

    • Grey Area 5.1
      22 May 2023 at 10:59 pm

      "And face reality folks only a labour led government can deliver on it."

      But they won't though. Neoliberals through and through. Your hope is sadly misplaced IMO.

      • Ngungukai 5.1.1
        23 May 2023 at 5:51 am

        Labour & National are both the same these days, promise plenty and deliver 5/8th's of Fck All. We do not have the people with intelligence or foresight in Government or our Business Communities who can deliver results to the Country which will benefit the Whole Country and the General Public. We keep enriching the top 10% of the people in this country who already have more than a Bull can Sht. Time to start looking after the Country's People rather than pandering to Off Shore Corporates and New Immigrants.

    • tWiggle 5.2
      23 May 2023 at 2:04 pm

      Is that part of an OECD initiative to inhibit 'a tax rate' race to the bottom', which seems to be when you shift profits off-shore to a tax haven to avoid tax in country of origin?

      NZ appears to have legislation updated for this OECD initiative in this years' annual Tax Bill.

      https://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2023/0255/latest/LMS844398.html