Doofus of the week

Written By: - Date published: 12:19 pm, February 10th, 2018 - 100 comments
Categories: articles, doofus of the week, Media, racism, the praiseworthy and the pitiful, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , ,

I was tempted to make the award to the National Party caucus for sticking with Bill and Paula as leaders but it seemed to me that was a cause of celebration not denigration.

But there was one person who managed to attract attention for all the wrong reasons. For going on a racist rant that would have been embarrassing in the 1970s let alone now. And for breaching acceptable standards that egregiously that NBR showed him the door.

Spinoff has the background:

Bob Jones will be filing no more for the National Business Review after the deletion of his most recent contribution, which included a call for an annual “Māori Gratitude Day” (which he later renamed “Māori Appreciation Day”) and sparked online disgust, was pulled from the paper’s website.

The inciting passage in the property magnate and polemicist’s “Bits and Bobs” column, which carried the subheading “Time for a troll”, argued, “as there are no full-blooded Māoris in existence it indisputably follows that had it not been for migrants, mainly Brits, not a single Māori alive today … would have existed”. Ergo, he continued, “it’s long overdue for some appreciation. I have in mind a public holiday where Māori bring us breakfast in bed or weed our gardens, wash and polish our cars and so on, out of gratitude for existing.”

The column, which appeared in the print edition of the NBR on Friday, provoked angry responses when screenshots were posted on social media. “I couldn’t be more disappointed in the NBR for publishing this,” tweeted Herald columnist Lizzie Marvelly. “If you subscribe, feel free to voice your repulsion with cancelled subscriptions.”

There is a dispute about whether Jones jumped or was he pushed.  He says:

“As a result I shan’t bother writing any more for NBRwhich I only did at the owner’s request to help them out. I’ve certainly got better things to do with my time.”

But NBR sees it differently. Again from Spinoff:

In what appears to be a different version of events to Jones’ statement that “I shan’t bother writing any more for NBR”, the source at the publication said the decision to terminate the column was made at its end, and communicated with Jones in a telephone conversation.

I am pleased that spouting such racist nonsense is now longer tolerated.  And that even in these days of click bait there are some standards the NBR is not prepared to break.

100 comments on “Doofus of the week ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    10 February 2018 at 12:42 pm

    Everyone with a strong opinions goes through the same cycle of life. First a youthful crusader, then a change agent, next an insightful critic, then an interesting curmudgeon and finally a has been embarrassment. Bob has finally reached the end of his journey.

    • solkta 1.1
      10 February 2018 at 1:45 pm

      I think he might have started at the end.

      • AB 1.1.1
        10 February 2018 at 3:20 pm

        Quite – it seems Bob missed the first 4 stages of Sanctuary’s cycle.

        • D'Esterre 1.1.1.1
          11 February 2018 at 2:29 pm

          AB: “it seems Bob missed the first 4 stages of Sanctuary’s cycle.”

          As far as I recall, Jones has expressed such views for many years. He hasn’t changed: he’s been a lifelong curmudgeon.

          Whether he actually believes the outrageous stuff he comes out with, or just says it to wind people up, is a moot point. But blunt public commentary is his modus operandi. And he’s entitled to comment publicly: freedom of speech, after all. If people don’t like what he says, they’re free to ignore him. Or better yet, challenge him with countervailing arguments; don’t just scream the racism epithet.

  2. ropata 2
    10 February 2018 at 12:45 pm

    Apparently even Matthew Hooton has bouts of lucidity. This fossil is past his use by date. Gone are the glory days of rigging elections, punching reporters, and getting kicked off AirNZ

    • adam 3.1
      10 February 2018 at 1:58 pm

      Who cares, knights have always been defenders of the establishment, and the establishment is racist.

      • Stunned Mullet 3.1.1
        10 February 2018 at 4:20 pm

        What tripe, how about arguably our most famous knight in NZ, Sir Ed ?

        • Grant 3.1.1.1
          10 February 2018 at 8:26 pm

          The exception that proves the rule.

        • greywarshark 3.1.1.2
          11 February 2018 at 2:42 pm

          Sir Ed set out to conquer a piece of physical territory and we claimed his achievement as adding to the country’s achievements. He did it for his own satisfaction, but why is it important to set records for feats that have no practical application?

          We claimed it as an achievement that NZ had won. It’s part of the colonial desire to go out and conquer. He made sure that it wasn’t racist by acknowledging Tensing and he did it together, but a knighthood tends to be for a conquering hero of feats or finances and generally a white man decoration.

      • Ankerrawshark 3.1.2
        11 February 2018 at 12:10 pm

        I think the point of stripping him of his knight hood is to give him a consequence that hurts. And to send a strong message to others

        • D'Esterre 3.1.2.1
          11 February 2018 at 5:48 pm

          Ankerrawshark: “And to send a strong message to others”

          Which would be what? Dissenters, be wary of sticking your heads above the parapet? I don’t think that’s a message anyone should be receiving in contemporary NZ.

          I don’t support the idea of Jones losing his knighthood for expressing his opinion. Or poking the borax, which is what his article looks like to me.

          • Paul Campbell 3.1.2.1.1
            12 February 2018 at 5:31 am

            I think the message would be “don’t be a racist arsehole” – I don’t have a problem with applying the same message to other racist arseholes

            • D'Esterre 3.1.2.1.1.1
              12 February 2018 at 2:08 pm

              Paul Campbell: “don’t be a racist arsehole”

              Bob Jones isn’t a racist, even if you find his comments deplorable. Enough with the racism epithet already!

              Jones was poking the borax: he’s been doing it all of my adult life. In my experience he’s an equal-opportunities borax-poker: very few sacred cows have escaped his attention over the years.

              But he’s an individual: having opinions other people don’t like doesn’t make him a racist. Racism is the preserve of governments and authorities with the power to make and enforce laws and regulations, not of individual citizens.

              • Paul Campbell …
                12 February 2018 at 11:14 pm

                I know what borax is, something my grandmother used for cleaning, I’m not sure why one would want to poke it. Is this an expression from my Nana’s time that wasn’t passed on to the grandkids?

                (BTW I’m 59)

    • D'Esterre 3.2
      10 February 2018 at 10:35 pm

      Weka: “There’s a petition to strip him of his knighthood.”

      I’d go along with that, but not because of that article. I’ve long been of the view that nobody should ever get a gong for what they do for a job, or for some pursuit for which they’re already well-known. That includes pollies and sports types.

      Were the honours system as well found as it ought to be, and giving recognition to the deserving, we’d for the most part never have heard of the recipients. They’d be people like that elderly woman, who recently won a court decision regarding payment to her for her lifelong care of her disabled son.

      Not people like Bob Jones, that Jackson fellow, or our unlamented former dear leader.

      • greywarshark 3.2.1
        11 February 2018 at 10:49 am

        Gongs go to people who have made lots of money and been influential in a way that has progressed the interests of the wealthy, plus a few more sprinkled around the genuinely good and outstanding and others just notable in the news for a long time.

  4. bwaghorn 4
    10 February 2018 at 1:07 pm

    it must be an old white guy illness , get any old bugger in a room and it,s never long till they will spout something starting with , the maoris , please euthinase me if i catch it.

    do old maori men suffer the same thing in reverse?

    • McFlock 4.1
      10 February 2018 at 4:30 pm

      I read an interesting article once which argued that some stereotypically racist old people were actually reasonably liberal in their time, it was just that the conversation and labels changed quicker than they could.

      The example being the author’s grandmother being an embarrassment by referring to “coloreds” (yank article) – When she was growing up, “colored” was the polite term, e.g. NAACP.

      So by that logic, if you start as a tory who refuses to change in the slightest, decades later your idea of a little bit of trolling is just downright racist shit that makes most people go “how the fuck did this even get published in the first place?!”

    • D'Esterre 4.2
      10 February 2018 at 10:50 pm

      bwaghorn: “do old maori men suffer the same thing in reverse?”

      Old men, whatever their ethnic provenance I’d have said. It isn’t until we grow old that we come to understand how much of what we passionately believed in our youth was dewy-eyed twaddle.

  5. Incognito 5
    10 February 2018 at 1:12 pm

    Obviously, NBR had no role to play in this whatsoever. I mean, Sir Bob could bypass all Editorial oversight and control and send the whole edition, not just his column, to the printers without any checks & balances. I’d argue that NBR willingly and knowingly provided a platform for this kind of divisive propaganda. The ethics of NBR in this saga are highly questionable but unfortunately this is the new normal of mass media, the people that pull the strings behind the scenes, and their target audiences, of course …

    • Cinny 5.1
      10 February 2018 at 1:43 pm

      Was thinking… bob is from muldoons era.. media relationships, old boys bullying… no balls/backbone NBR? Just a random thought…

      • Chuck 5.1.1
        10 February 2018 at 2:07 pm

        Bob Jones and Winston Peters are good drinking buddies.

        A lot of donations have gone Winston’s way from Sir Bob.

        Winston holds Sir Bob in high regard, as you can see below.

        “Peters criticised cuts to humanities at universities because of bean-counters who didn’t realise the value of the critical, independent thinking such degrees taught – attributes recognised and valued by businessman Sir Bob Jones when hiring graduates, he said.”

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11871540

        • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1
          10 February 2018 at 2:25 pm

          Jones is on record as donating to Labour and National and NZF in the same electoral cycle, and once stated that he’d also donate to the Greens – “but don’t tell them”.

          Jones’ attitude to business graduates is spot on. Pity he’s a vile racist fool.

        • patricia bremner 5.1.1.2
          11 February 2018 at 2:54 pm

          Perhaps Bob is repaying Winston for going with “The wrong crowd” just saying!

    • Woody 5.2
      10 February 2018 at 9:29 pm

      Exactly just thinking the same thing

  6. Cinny 6
    10 February 2018 at 1:37 pm

    old BOYS club

    His type will be dead soon enough.

    His type are grasping desperately with frail fingers to be relevant, evolution has already left them behind.

    Does any one consider frontal lobe damage to the likes of such specimens?

    Information to deter jones dumb as narrative could come in ‘brain function’ documentaries screened on the Free educational TV channel.

    Media manipulation documentaries too, pathetic click bait shit storms, bullying bob and his hangers on.

    Do they cover media clickbait/propaganda/public manipulation etc in Social Studies at High School? Are they allowed to?
    That would be ace. Educate.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1
      10 February 2018 at 2:22 pm

      His type will be dead soon enough.

      So long as there are people born with limited IQ, so long as the brain adapts to dishonesty, racism and other right wing values will persist. More’s the pity.

      Doofus is far too kind a description, and bugger – I need to find a new source of praise for Labour’s economic record.

      • Son of Don 6.1.1
        10 February 2018 at 2:53 pm

        And yet the principal coalition partner supporting the Left is one of NZ’s most outspoken racists:

        Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) : I move, That the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will seek leave for this bill to be sent to the Justice and Electoral Committee for consideration.

        https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first

        “The treaty has acquired all the elements of a full blown cult. Its adherents chant a Waitangi mantra with taxpayers’ money, and those who would leave this cult are derided as racists who are certainly consigned to hell.

        “The results of this chanting have been disastrous for the long-term interests of this country. It has created a division between races that never existed before.”

        http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/20840/winston-peters-on-the-treaty-of-waitangi-2002/

        However, the NZ perennial “racist” now props up a government that many on this site support.

        Is it a case of “a little bit of racism can be tolerated so long as it’s for the good of the country”?

        Looks like the “limited IQ” is alive and well in this Govt

        • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1
          10 February 2018 at 2:56 pm

          That might explain why NZF’s racist policies didn’t survive coalition talks.

          • Chuck 6.1.1.1.1
            10 February 2018 at 3:35 pm

            Don’t be too confident just yet…there is that 33 or 38-page collation document that is being kept under wraps by Jacinda.

            As Winston was ok to release it at the time, it’s a safe bet to assume it favors NZF more so.

            Then there was this yesterday…

            “Labour and Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern have been signalling that this Government is departing from the traditional culturalist and “race-based” approach to dealing with Maori deprivation and economic inequality.”

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11991259

            Did NZF demand the race-based approach be removed?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1.1
              10 February 2018 at 5:29 pm

              33 or 38-page collation document that is being kept under wraps by Jacinda.

              Gosh, really?! I suggest you send in an OIA request and let the Ombudsman’s office sort her out forthwith!

              • Son of Don …
                10 February 2018 at 6:50 pm

                OAB = “it’s ok to have racists in coalition so long as they keep their views to themselves”

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  10 February 2018 at 7:02 pm

                  Are you such a dullard that strawmen are your only allies?
                  I think so.

                  Of course I’m uncomfortable that the Green Party is providing confidence and supply to a coalition that includes NZF.

                  On the other hand, I’m glad National lost the election, and Bill English’s remarks about te reo being “someone else’s language” just helps reinforce that view.

                  I’m sure that the government’s warm welcome at Waitangi is a better barometer than your flaccid offerings, but.

                  • D'Esterre …
                    11 February 2018 at 10:40 pm

                    One Anonymous Bloke: ” Bill English’s remarks about te reo being “someone else’s language””.

                    It was awkwardly phrased, but English was right: te reo belongs to Maori, and its survival is in their hands. The rest of us can’t save it, no matter how keen we are to help.

                    • weka …
                      11 February 2018 at 11:40 pm

                      The state basically drove te reo to extinction, and given the disparity in resources between Māori and the state, the onus is on the state to drive it’s survival and into a state of thriving.

                      I’m Pākehā, I have learned some reo, it’s my job too to save it. If some people like English don’t want to be part of that, the least they can do is get out of the way. At the moment he’s blocking the path.

                    • D'Esterre []
                      12 February 2018 at 3:36 pm

                      Weka: “the onus is on the state to drive it’s survival and into a state of thriving.”

                      We’ve been down this road before. No amount of state involvement will make it so. If te reo is to not just survive but thrive, it needs native speakers. This is the job of Maori parents, who themselves must provide that te reo-only language environment for their children while they’re infants and toddlers. It’s a daunting task, but essential.

                      The state can offer education in te reo, but only if there are enough competent speakers to teach in the language. Another daunting task nowadays, and another reason why we need native speakers in large numbers.

                      Making the language compulsory is pointless: it would achieve nothing, if the objective is language survival. A fortiori revival.

                      “I’m Pākehā, I have learned some reo,”

                      As am I, and as have I. Perhaps you’d be able to contribute to the te reo-only language environment of a Maori child or grandchild? If so, you’ll need to be a competent speaker, able to do all the daily stuff in te reo. Assuming that you can get to that point of competence: a difficult task, as I know all too well. But for all that, you cannot alter the fact that you’re a second language speaker.

                      ” It’s my job too to save it.”

                      No. No matter how much you might wish it were otherwise, you are a pakeha, and (I’m guessing) a native speaker of English. As am I. It’s the job of Maori, whose language and heritage it is, to save it.

                      The state can do only that which is within its purview. In the current environment, that may not be very much.

                      It’s essential to understand that preservation of indigenous languages is very difficult. If any polity ought to have been able to pull this off, it’s Ireland. But Irish is in trouble. As is Welsh, and for the same reason: loss of those native speakers. Scotland has, I believe, lost the battle for Gaelic: only second-language speakers there now. Yet I understand that there were native speakers – albeit in the remoter areas – only 50 or so years ago. That’s how quickly a language can be lost.

                    • weka …
                      12 February 2018 at 3:51 pm

                      “No amount of state involvement will make it so. If te reo is to not just survive but thrive, it needs native speakers.”

                      Obviously native speakers are needed, which is why the state needs to be involved.

                      If Māori parents don’t speak te reo fluently, how can they teach their kids. This really is not hard to understand.

                      “The state can offer education in te reo, but only if there are enough competent speakers to teach in the language. Another daunting task nowadays, and another reason why we need native speakers in large numbers.”

                      That’s the same for anything. Can’t teach people to build houses without having builders to teach and they’re all busy building. If only we had a solution to that.

                      “As am I, and as have I. Perhaps you’d be able to contribute to the te reo-only language environment of a Maori child or grandchild? If so, you’ll need to be a competent speaker, able to do all the daily stuff in te reo. Assuming that you can get to that point of competence: a difficult task, as I know all too well. But for all that, you cannot alter the fact that you’re a second language speaker.”

                      I learnt from a second language speaker who is fluent. But there were limits on what I could learn because there is in immersion available to me. Had I learned at school, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have been fluent by now and helping others.

                      “No. No matter how much you might wish it were otherwise, you are a pakeha, and (I’m guessing) a native speaker of English. As am I. It’s the job of Maori, whose language and heritage it is, to save it.”

                      You see those things are somehow incompatible. Meanwhile, I’m listening to *Māori, especially people who speak te reo and are involved in protecting the language and they want Pākehā involved. That doesn’t mean that Māori shouldn’t be driving this, so I’m confused as to why you are imply that.

                      “It’s essential to understand that preservation of indigenous languages is very difficult.”

                      Actually it’s not. It’s really really simply. Put the resources into the people that want to speak it, and listen to what they say. The work that has been done since colonisation speaks to this. This is a very different situation than the UK.

                    • D'Esterre []
                      12 February 2018 at 11:42 pm

                      Weka: “which is why the state needs to be involved.”

                      Children become native speakers of any language by hearing it spoken exclusively around them day-to-day, from birth, by parents, relatives and visitors. But of course, parents are the critical influence on children’s language acquisition. Explain to me how the state could play any part in this process?

                      “If Māori parents don’t speak te reo fluently, how can they teach their kids.”

                      And here we have it: the nub of the problem. Their children will be native speakers of the language those parents use: English. Although it’s hard to find accurate statistics, it looks as if the numbers of fluent speakers is very low, while the number of native speakers is vanishingly small. In fact, it may be the case that there are now no native speakers left. There’ll be some who are bilingual – in my own extended family, for instance – but again, it’s likely numbers are very low.

                      “I learnt from a second language speaker who is fluent. But there were limits on what I could learn…”

                      How competent a speaker you become is partly dependent on how old you are when you learn a second language. In general (with some exceptions of course), the younger one is, the easier it is to become fluent. This is an inescapable fact of biology.

                      “You see those things are somehow incompatible.”

                      They are, in the sense that as a second language learner, no matter how fluent you may become, you will never have the facility with te reo that a native speaker has. Nor do you, as a pakeha, have the connection to culture and heritage that’s freighted onto the language. As I said above, you could contribute to a Maori infant’s native language acquisition by speaking only te reo around that child. But you’ll need to become a competent speaker.

                      “….they want Pākehā involved.”

                      I daresay some do. I wouldn’t presume to interrogate their motives for that.

                      “Actually it’s not. It’s really really simple.”

                      Were that so, te reo would not now be endangered. No. It’s a very difficult enterprise. In countries such as ours, the onslaught of English all but drowns out indigenous languages.

                      “Put the resources into the people that want to speak it, and listen to what they say.”

                      Ha! Tell that to the Irish. They’ve had 100 years since independence to revive Irish, but even there, those critical native speakers are being lost.

                      “This is a very different situation than the UK.”

                      Heh! I don’t think the Irish’d thank you for lumping them in with the UK. With regard to language preservation and revival, however, the same principles apply.

                      Prior to independence, Ireland had been colonised by the English (and Normans) for the thick end of 1000 years. They turfed out the Poms and set about language revival. But: despite Irish still being widely spoken at that time, in the west of Ireland, where the Gaeltacht areas are, and despite Irish being the mother tongue of all Irish people, the numbers of speakers have gradually dropped. Now the language is in trouble: English is supplanting it.

                      It has to be Maori who do the heavy lifting of language revival, because it’s their language. Languages survive and thrive because speakers use them. Trying to save a language for political reasons is doomed to failure long-term, even if there’s short-term success. Again: just ask the Irish.

                    • weka …
                      12 February 2018 at 11:58 pm

                      Children become native speakers of any language by hearing it spoken exclusively around them day-to-day, from birth, by parents, relatives and visitors. But of course, parents are the critical influence on children’s language acquisition. Explain to me how the state could play any part in this process?

                      By funding programmes that teach adults te reo. Then when they have kids the kids learn naturally in exactly the way you are talking about.

                      Kai Tahu had this idea of having a street where everyone spoke te reo. I don’t remember the details, but essentially it would be a community of people living normal lives who also all were either speaking or learn to speak Māori.

                      I gave up half way through the rest of your comment, because honestly what I am hearing you argue is that only Māori native speakers can save the language and its all on them, the government shouldn’t help. That’s basically signing a death warrant for te reo, and that’s fucked up.

                    • D'Esterre []
                      13 February 2018 at 11:32 am

                      Weka: “By funding programmes that teach adults te reo. Then when they have kids the kids learn naturally in exactly the way you are talking about.”

                      This was how I learned te reo in the 1970s. Since that time, successive governments have to varying degrees funded such classes. And, since about 1980, we’ve seen the rise of the kohanga reo and kura kaupapa movements. Yet the numbers of speakers continue to fall. People need to be fluent in te reo, and to speak it exclusively in the home, with and around their babies and toddlers. No matter how much funding the state were to put into language teaching, it cannot force people to use it exclusively in the home. So yes, what the state can do to produce native speakers is limited.

                      “Kai Tahu had this idea of having a street where everyone spoke te reo.”

                      This is an idea along the lines of the Irish Gaeltacht areas: te reo-only zones. I wonder if it’s come to fruition. Te Wananga O Raukawa in Otaki operates similarly, I have heard: no English and no smoking once one is inside the front gates. I don’t know how successful it has been in reviving te reo (or eliminating smoking), but there is a big Maori population in Otaki, and in the days when we used to go there regularly, we’d often hear te reo spoken in the street.

                      “I gave up half way through the rest of your comment”

                      Well, now, that’s a pity. I do you the courtesy of reading your comments and responding to them.

                      “I am hearing you argue is that only Māori native speakers can save the language”

                      Unfortunately, with regard to language revival, this is the way language operates everywhere. It’s not something that applies only to te reo. Nor is it something I dreamed up. For complex reasons to do with the biological mechanisms underpinning how language is acquired and transmitted, we need native speakers. Without them, a language is classified as “dead”.

                      Latin is a prime example of a dead language. It is still taught, mostly at uni level now, though I learned it at school. And in those days, it was still the language of ceremonial in the Catholic church. It is centuries since there were any native speakers, though teaching of it persists, on account of so many classical texts were written in Latin. If one would be a Classics scholar, one needs to know Latin.

                      Without native speakers, te reo will become like Latin; in all likelihood heard only at the marae on ceremonial occasions, or for speech-making. Or it may become extinct, as has happened to many indigenous languages worldwide.

                      “and its all on them, the government shouldn’t help.””

                      That’s not what I said. I pointed out that the government’s powers are limited. So: the resurrection of te reo really does rest with Maori themselves. How many pakeha are likely to be able to raise children who are native speakers of te reo? Or would want to, in any event? A vanishingly small number, I’m guessing.

                      We’re on the same side in this, you know. I’d love to see substantive language revival, but I accept that I and other pakeha have a limited role to play in that process.

          • Hornet 6.1.1.1.2
            10 February 2018 at 5:23 pm

            Yes arguably their nastiest policy of all did. Delightful to see Sue Bradford giving both NZF and the Greens a serve on that:

            “The Greens really need to get a grip on what being part of a government coalition requires. There is a basic rule of negotiation: don’t give stuff away if you don’t need to. In sacrificing principle on electoral law they’re gaining no advantage at all. They’re also running a high risk of being seen as nothing but a Labour/NZ First doormat for the next three years. NZ First voted wholesale against Chloe Swarbrick’s medicinal cannabis bill this week. Winston and friends don’t give a damn about keeping their partners happy. The Greens just cave.”
            https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/05-02-2018/my-old-party-is-betraying-its-own-proud-history-on-the-waka-jumping-bill/

        • Incognito 6.1.1.2
          10 February 2018 at 3:28 pm

          I think you’ve missed the nuance of Winston’s reasoning for his proposal to end references to the Treaty of Waitangi in regulation and legislation and why this does not make him a racist per se. Have you actually read those links? I assume from your comment that you’re in full support of the ToW or are you simply trying to seed & spread discord? Your record here on TS belies a limited IQ …

          • D'Esterre 6.1.1.2.1
            11 February 2018 at 7:21 pm

            Incognito: “I think you’ve missed the nuance of Winston’s reasoning for his proposal to end references to the Treaty of Waitangi in regulation and legislation”

            Looks like that to me, too. I’ve read those links; Peters’ concern was the so-called “principles” of the Treaty. I remember the events referenced in Parliament, all those years ago; I’m guessing that some commenters here will have been too young to have been aware of them. I recommend those links (posted above by Son of Don) to others.

        • Jack Ramaka 6.1.1.3
          10 February 2018 at 4:02 pm

          Isn’t Bob Jones a Pom?

          • D'Esterre 6.1.1.3.1
            10 February 2018 at 10:46 pm

            Jack Ramaka: “Isn’t Bob Jones a Pom?”

            No. He was born in Lower Hutt, grew up in Naenae, went to Naenae College. He’s the archetypal working class boy made good.

        • ropata 6.1.1.4
          10 February 2018 at 5:31 pm

          Winston is an ardent Nationalist, parties to the left and right may call that racism, but they are lying. NZF is a response to the fire sale of NZ that most other parties have swept under the carpet.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.4.1
            10 February 2018 at 5:47 pm

            Scratch a nationalist…

            …the last refuge of a scoundrel.

            Samuel Johnson.

            For the counter-narrative, see the Greens. Personally I think Peters is a populist weathervane.

          • Jack Ramaka 6.1.1.4.2
            10 February 2018 at 6:01 pm

            Agree 100%

        • Jack Ramaka 6.1.1.5
          10 February 2018 at 6:04 pm

          Please advise who the “perennial racist is ?” you have got me confused ?

    • D'Esterre 6.2
      10 February 2018 at 10:58 pm

      Cinny: “old BOYS club

      His type will be dead soon enough.”

      Yup. To be replaced by a cohort which is younger at present, but whose views and perspectives will be as despised by the younger generation as Bob Jones’s are now.

      There’s nothing new in any of this: seen and heard it all before.

  7. Jack Ramaka 7
    10 February 2018 at 4:06 pm

    I don’t think Winston is a racist ?

    Winston is not happy with the Brown Brotherhood and the Lawyers that are milking the system, he is misunderstood by the media and the general public.

  8. Stunned Mullet 8
    10 February 2018 at 4:24 pm

    The satire it offends me !

    • AB 8.1
      10 February 2018 at 4:42 pm

      It’s not satire and it doesn’t offend me.
      It’s stupidity and I despise it.

    • D'Esterre 8.2
      11 February 2018 at 10:11 pm

      Stunned Mullet: “The satire it offends me !”

      It isn’t satire. It’s borax-poking. It’s so ridiculous, you can laugh at it, as I did. Or you can be offended by it, I guess. It takes all sorts…

  9. David Mac 9
    10 February 2018 at 5:48 pm

    I enjoy Bob’s columns, don’t most of us read them right through?

    I rarely agree with him but it’s voices like his that help me shape where I stand.

    There is no Ying without Yang.

    • ropata 9.1
      10 February 2018 at 7:18 pm

      If only the NBR was printed on biodegradable absorbent paper, Bob Jones pages might be useful for something

    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2
      10 February 2018 at 7:23 pm

      How could there be yin without yang? They represent aspects of the same quality.

      So up is yang and down is yin because of the absence of height. Hard is yang and soft is yin, because of the absence of tension.

      Racism is yin, because of the absence of wit.

      • David Mac 9.2.1
        10 February 2018 at 7:34 pm

        I suspect that is insightful OAB but it’s gone over my head dammit, I want to get it. Can you dumb it down for me please.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1.1
          10 February 2018 at 8:05 pm

          I’ll try: clench your fist, then relax it: the clenched hand is yang: it’s tense. The relaxed hand is yin: the relative level of tension in your muscles is the quality that changes your hand from yin to yang. and back again.

          It’s a lot easier to illustrate with physical concepts than abstract ideas though. I was trying to say that racism isn’t a thing in its own right, rather it represents an absence of another quality, like empathy or intelligence.

          Also, “yin” and “yang” and my understanding of them are limited by whatever’s been lost in translation, so maybe it’s a doomed metaphor 🙂

          • David Mac 9.2.1.1.1
            10 February 2018 at 8:46 pm

            Yin/Yang… there is no Batman without the Penguin.

            Bob Jones has been a life-long supporter of boxing, he could of creamed it if he chose to go the Don King route, he didn’t. I think he likes that somebody of any colour and background can work very hard and achieve in the ring. There is no bullshit in the ring, you do or you don’t. I believe colour would play no role in Bob’s list of his top 10 boxers.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1.1.1.1
              10 February 2018 at 8:49 pm

              Bruce Wayne is Batman’s yin. Penguin’s all yin 🙂

              As for Jones, the strongest force grows old…

              • weka …
                11 February 2018 at 11:43 pm

                “Penguin’s all yin”

                How so?

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  12 February 2018 at 7:31 am

                  It was a joke, but generally speaking criminality would perhaps be considered yin because of the absence of lawfulness?

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2018 at 11:37 am

                    Are yang things then considered such because of the absence of yin?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      12 February 2018 at 11:47 am

                      No, yin is an absence of whatever the quality is: tension, distance (far or near), etc.

                      Some more examples: full is yang and empty is yin because of the lack of mass; certainty, yang, and uncertainty, yin, due to the lack of assurance.

                      For more insight, read Lao Tzu, for example (from the Peter Merel translation):

                      Abstraction
                      …alive and dead are abstracted from nature,
                      Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,
                      Long and short abstracted from contrast,
                      High and low abstracted from depth…

                      Each pair in the above passage is the yang and yin of the quality they’re abstracted from.

                      At least, that’s my understanding…

            • Muttonbird 9.2.1.1.1.2
              10 February 2018 at 8:55 pm

              That’s a particularly weak defence of Jones there. So weak I’m wondering if it’s deliberate.

              • David Mac …
                10 February 2018 at 9:03 pm

                If I’m his defense attorney…I think he’d be calling for a refund mid hearing.

                Yeah he’s a cock, but if we’ve got to have cocks, we could do worse than Bob.

                The gnarlier they are on the outside the more marshmallow they are on the inside. Atilla the Hun just needed hugs.

  10. Jack Ramaka 10
    10 February 2018 at 6:00 pm

    Jones has always been a wind up merchant, definitely released the article at the right time post Waitangi Day, especially with Jacinda stealing the limelight at Waitangi Day.

    To be fair to the guy he probably doesn’t understand much about NZ History and sees things rather as black or white.

    He definitely got things fired up, the rednecks love these comments and te tangata whenua realise he is just winding the show up.

    At least the NBR had the sense to take the article down ?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1
      10 February 2018 at 6:08 pm

      “The boys throw stones at the frogs in jest, but the frogs die in earnest”. Plutarch.

      Te tangata whenua on my Facebook feed obviously didn’t get the memo.

    • David Mac 10.2
      10 February 2018 at 6:11 pm

      I agree Jack, he is too savvy to be a victim of controversy, he whips it up and surfs it.

      I think he is still the only Kiwi to chuck money at an attempt to alter our political landscape and did so.

      Like Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, I left school at an early age. I like the way that Jones wouldn’t hold this against me.

      • Jack Ramaka 10.2.1
        10 February 2018 at 6:49 pm

        He definitely succeeded with the Bob Jones Party and assisted the introduction of Neoliberalism into New Zealand.

        • David Mac 10.2.1.1
          10 February 2018 at 7:17 pm

          Yes, they were times that shaped where we are today. Bizarre to think that it was the National Party he was ousting.

          As you say, Bob likes stirring the pot and he fertilises a public persona that invites vitriol.

          Prick aside, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him do something like leave his fortune to NZ wide womens’ refuges.

          He has the same genes as Lloyd, fishes with a fly, must be pretending to be an arsehole.

          • D'Esterre 10.2.1.1.1
            11 February 2018 at 10:27 pm

            David Mac: “He has the same genes as Lloyd….”

            Indeed. I’ve often thought that it must seriously piss him off that Lloyd’s books win prizes, and people adapt them for movies, while his end up in the remaindered bin.

    • D'Esterre 10.3
      10 February 2018 at 11:37 pm

      Jack Ramaka: “Jones has always been a wind up merchant”

      Yup. All my adult life he’s been saying outrageous things, to wind people up. Usually successfully.

      Nobody has to agree with him, but he ought to be able to say outrageous things. Freedom of speech and all that.

      He isn’t a racist; neither is Winston Peters. Characterising people as racist is just name-calling, and suggests a want of substantive argument on the part of the name-caller.

      One of the most regrettable things about public discourse over my lifetime has been the extent to which the meaning of the term “racism” has been generalised out, almost to the point of meaninglessness. People’s opinions, no matter how much they offend others, aren’t racist. Such people may be bigoted or prejudiced, but that isn’t the same thing.

      Racism is the bailiwick of lawmakers and those in authority, who can structure a society or legal system such that it negatively affects – or disproportionately benefits – an entire identified group of people. Think of apartheid, US society prior to the civil rights era, the NZ Department of Social Welfare before the mid-1980s or so, what the Australian government is doing to New Zealanders at present.

    • Ankerrawshark 10.4
      11 February 2018 at 12:21 pm

      Jack Ramada

      Possible to be fair to someone, but show no tolerance for their views.

      Nbr should never have published it

      And remember jones was the one who blamed the German tourists for getting raped cause of what they wore

  11. One Anonymous Bloke 11
    10 February 2018 at 7:18 pm

    It’s interesting to see how this story is being framed as a stand-off between free speech and hate speech.

    What’s missing is the observation that Jones has the freedom to run his mouth anywhere he likes, although people might choose not to publish it nor respect his title.

    Stripping him of this title won’t gag him, it will simply indicate that he has brought the title into disrepute. Mind you, the title was already well tarnished by its association with Talley et al.

    • David Mac 11.1
      10 February 2018 at 7:45 pm

      Yep, I think you’re right and that is just the discussion that would push Bob’s buttons.

      We don’t need to ban Hate Speech, just leave those purveying anything perceived as such owning their words. We have laws, if it’s illegal, prosecute.

      We all want to live in a country where people can say what they want to.

    • D'Esterre 11.2
      11 February 2018 at 9:54 pm

      One Anonymous Bloke:”a stand-off between free speech and hate speech.”

      Does anybody have any idea what constitutes hate speech? As far as I know, we have nothing specified in law, Peter Dunne’s efforts notwithstanding.

      “What’s missing is the observation that Jones has the freedom to run his mouth anywhere he likes”

      Exactly. Free speech requires it.

      “…although people might choose not to publish it nor respect his title.”

      My view is that in the interests of free speech it should be published. Whether or not people respect his title is neither here nor there to me.

      “tweeted Herald columnist Lizzie Marvelly.”

      She comes across as very earnest. Or – put another way – humourless. In my view, she’d be worth taking notice of, were she to proffer a reasoned argument to counter Jones. Or preferably, that she’d realise he’s taking the Mickey, and laugh at it. Don’t take this stuff so seriously!

  12. eco maori 12
    10 February 2018 at 9:39 pm

    I’m not wasting one more word on this person Kia kite ano

  14. mary_a 14
    11 February 2018 at 11:14 am

    Jones is an odious cesspit dweller!

  15. Dot 15
    11 February 2018 at 1:16 pm

    Someone in his family should tell him to stop being a silly old fool,
    as he is only embarrassing himself .
    Not that I think that he would listen as it has never appeared to be one of his strong assets
    but he does have some intelligent family.

  17. patricia bremner 17
    11 February 2018 at 3:37 pm

    Mike King said of Bob,
    ” Embarrassing old man, who has lost discretion A bit like a drunk uncle”

    Mike, he never had discretion, he is too full of ego.

    “Bob is a friend of Winston” I don’t think Bob does friends.
    (Winston chose “the wrong team”)

    Bob struck me as a pontificating fool. He tried politics on a wave of popularity, when that failed he castigated NZ people as stupid. LOL.

    He has a lot in common with our “Lipstick on a pig” Gareth Morgan and his PR man.
    A narrow bitter view of the world, with the occasional flash of acerbic wit, judging others from a place of plenty.

    Sadly education has not softened their hides or id.

    Giving gongs to their like is a sad indictment of current values, after all Bob made his money speculating on commercial property.

  18. Tricledrown 18
    11 February 2018 at 4:09 pm

    Now that explains a lot.
    Head injuries .
    Kidney Disease
    Alcoholism
    Make grumpy old men abusive.
    The Exclusive Brethren have a very high rate of alcoholism.
    The EB are a patriarchal cult.
    Where women are subservient.
    The EB have a 27% rate of child sexual abuse more than 4× the the general population.
    Bob Jones is an EB heavily involved in politics.

    • D'Esterre 18.1
      11 February 2018 at 10:57 pm

      Tricledrown: “Bob Jones is an EB heavily involved in politics.”

      What on earth does this mean?

  19. Sparky 19
    12 February 2018 at 10:10 am

    I’d like to see more journalistic coverage of the upcoming CP-TPP “talks” as this so called deal in my view and those of many others I know does much to promote inequality. Yet to date coverage remains poor. Suffice to say I have little time or respect for the MSM.

  20. Michelle 20
    12 February 2018 at 3:00 pm

    He can stay in Auz we don’t want this silly old prick back in the hutt valley