Duped?

Written By: - Date published: 10:41 am, October 25th, 2018 - 136 comments
Categories: Dirty Politics, making shit up, national, useless - Tags: ,

I assiduously ignored all the hullabaloo that was erupting around Jamie Lee Ross and the National Party up until I twigged to something about the National Party having been behind the alleged sectioning of Jamie Lee Ross. I asked a question or two about that and got back to ignoring the whole thing.

Except for the bit about Cameron Slater having informed Jamie Lee Ross’s wife that he was in the care of mental health services. Why would Cameron Slater be the one “in the know”, unless Cameron Slater was in on the assessment? It’s a nice angle to “up the anti” on the National Party and Simon Bridges –  to insinuate, or allow the thought, that someone or someones in the National Party had Jamie Lee Ross snaffled up by mental health services.

And easy enough for Jamie Lee Ross to conspire with Slater, request an assessment and watch the resultant explosion of speculation that was all inbound shrapnel from the perspective of Simon Bridges and his leadership.

It could look like ‘half’ a nation of distracted gossips (Ad counted the comments on this site at some point to be 900 odd over a few days) were led by the nose and made into foot soldiers in a short – and it has to be said, that by the results “well done” campaign  of bullshit maneuvering designed to undermine Simon Bridges.

It’s just a thought. And now I’m going back to ignoring the whole thing.

Oh. Nicky Hager has some interesting observations and commentary over at the Spin Off. I don’t think (from a quick read) he’s saying anything too far away from the suggestion made in this (bound to be oh so popular) post.

136 comments on “Duped?”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    We shall await instruction from yourself and Ad on the next appropriate topic of conversation.

    • greywarshark 1.1

      Good

    • reason 1.2

      Don’t await any comment from Ad to do with Nicky Hager Muttonbird …

      Ad had a [don’t abuse authors – MS] about Nicky being ‘anti-state’ or anti-government. …… I’m still not sure if it was [don’t abuse authors – MS].

      Nicky is of course against the abuse of state power …. ” But the problem isn’t most politicians and politics, which we rely on to have a democratic country. Last week’s spectacle was about a particular, reckless type of politics executed by people who don’t give a damn if their short-term tactics cause long-term harm for the rest of us.”

      I wonder what Mandy Hager thinks about Ads misrepresentation of her brother … https://www.spinbin.co.nz/mandy-hager-sends-patrick-gower-to-the-spin-bin/

  2. Stuart Munro 2

    The Gnats are pretty cold blooded. But I’m not sure even JLR would lose his wife and kids to get Judith’s foot in the door.

  3. Dukeofurl 3

    Detained patients are allowed outgoing and incoming phone calls (and visitors) could be the obvious answer.
    Its part of their rights so needs very very good reasons to be restricted and the outcome one or 2 days later means he wasnt in ‘seclusion’

    • Dennis Frank 3.1

      Says the law. Yet his friend reported to the media after Ross was taken against his will that he didn’t have his cellphone, and we still don’t know why. If state agents did actually confiscate his phone, then the question becomes one of law-breaking on their part, right?

      • Dukeofurl 3.1.1

        Unlikely the DHB mental services ( no its not at Middlemore) would be doing something like that as to them Ross is just another patient whos best treated in the community and all that entails.
        Remember even what Slater says has to be regarded with some suspicion, as early last week he was saying Ross and him arent that close now. I suppose old friends can pitch in when required but Slater is notorious for out and out lies.

      • mauī 3.1.2

        So why is it only random people on the interwebz worried about his phone, not the man himself or any of his supporters making press statements?

        • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1

          That’s what’s been bothering me. I speculated that he may have been sedated, and may be taking ongoing medication after release, or may be subject to release on condition that he does not not re-engage with politics or media, for his own safety. Even these reasonable concerns caused a few people here to get hysterical.

          The strangest aspect is total silence from his lawyer. Overseas, lawyers tend to front the media when it is dangerous for their clients to do so. Are we less competent here? Hope not.

          • JohnSelway 3.1.2.1.1

            “or may be subject to release on condition that he does not not re-engage with politics or media, for his own safety. ”

            That doesn’t happen. It isn’t like being released on bail. If he is out – he can speak to whomever he wants, there aren’t conditions like that.
            And if his lawyer hasn’t talked it’s because Ross hasn’t instructed him yet. That simple

            • veutoviper 3.1.2.1.1.1

              Or the lawyer is holding off at present until Ross is in a better space etc. Ross did say about Weds when he was still in Wgtn and seeing the police that he was seeing his lawyer soon – presumably in Auckland his home town – and he may well have done so Thurs or Friday.

              Speculation only on my part, but if he did, he may well have left his phone with texts etc, and all other recordings, papers etc with his lawyer for safe keeping – a very usual security step in such instances.

              But all too simple for those who must live by conspiracy theories …

              ENOUGH – slaps own hand with piece of paper (no wet bus ticket handy).

          • esoteric pineapples 3.1.2.1.2

            Keeping people quiet even once they have their “freedom” again can be done through subtle means. Make sure they are never alone for their own sake, surround them with people who “care” about them but aren’t actually their friends (those who really do care for JLR’s well-being are probably at the opposite end of the political spectrum to him), regular visits by the police and health professionals to make sure he is okay, a certain timidity on his part having been sectioned against his will so that he understands that he really has no power and those overseeing him do have power. Given drugs to keep him calm for his own well-being, not allowing him any privacy, not giving him access to his electronic media outside of where he is staying. Some level of control of what he does and when he does it.

            • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1.2.1

              Yeah, and one would expect collusion amongst the powers that be to close a whistle-blower down via those tactics. What we needs is more effective victims rights advocacy, particularly for whistleblowers. I’m just feeling I have to do it to compensate for the lack of anyone speaking on his behalf while he’s down. Kinda primal solidarity with the underdog feeling…

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                The impulse to support underdogs can overpower reason – guilty!

                Hypothesise that underdogs are deserving of support more often than not, but only anecdotal evidence, e.g. Ahmed Zaoui.

    • Chris 3.2

      At the very least it would’ve been to buy the nats time, even just to work out what to do next. Ross’ opportunity to use absolute privilege is now inevitable.

      • Dukeofurl 3.2.1

        You mean the medias ability to use parliamentary privilege to report without Bridges threatening defamation – which hes has done according to Tracy Watkins

      • Chris T 3.2.2

        “buy the nats time”

        It was in the middle of a long weekend ffs and he walked out on Tuesday

        Do you think the whole of the national were huddled all together in a panic on a sunny long weekend when the bloke hasn’t produced one shred of evidence of dodgy dealings yet?

        And he said that was his good stuff

        Next up “Bridges voice ordering food at KFC drive through…………..And….not saying please!!!”

        • Chris 3.2.2.1

          Is that all you think there is? You need to listen more.

        • Dukeofurl 3.2.2.2

          Not a shred?

          You havent heard of circumstantial evidence have you , and especially the evidence of an accomplice.

          Many famous murder cases dont have a body or a murder scene- this is even better

    • AsleepWhileWalking 3.3

      Yes, and Slater did say he got a phone call early morning from JLR so that’s how he knew.

      I don’t think anyone would conspire to be committed. C’mon.

  4. tc 4

    It’s a great opportunity for some much needed sunlight and reform IMO.

    Isn’t this the type of crap JA wanted NZ to rise above ? Clearly a more prescribed approach is required.

    We urgenty need to sort out the political donations mess nationals gaming of the EFA left us. Surely that’s a quick n easy fix with a surplus of ex lawyer MP’s.

    • gsays 4.1

      It is pleasing that Labour have largely kept quiet about this ordeal.

      Two reasons: to jump to conclusions or take a position not based in fact, can backfire and you look stupid.
      More importantly, nothing has been said that can take attention away from the entire sordid, corrupt goings on around the national party.

  5. I’m sure the truth when it comes out will be as unpleasant as we suspect. And probably curdle some brains as truth is always stranger than fiction, always.

  6. Sabine 6

    so why not simple state who called for the assessment and be done with it.

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Dunno why you & Ad think it’s a good idea to ignore an organised attempt to subvert our democracy, Bill. Trotter has had another go at the situation, and I’ll select the best two parts. http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/10/questions-questions-questions.html

    “piecing together what little information has made its way into the public domain, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that at the point of crisis, early on Sunday morning (21/10/18) Ross was in the company of a National Party MP. Whether it was this MP, or someone else, who became so alarmed by Ross’ behaviour that they called the Police, remains unclear. What is certain is that Ross was conveyed to Middlemore because he represented a danger to himself, or others, and against his will. That, barely 48 hours later, Middlemore was willing to release Ross strongly suggests that the circumstances which gave rise to his temporary detention no longer existed.”

    Even if it was Mitchell who did it, his motive could easily have been concern for Ross. If he genuinely believed another breakdown seemed to be happening, fair enough. Just that the timing of it was the point of maximum benefit to the National Party. Coincidence? Unlikely. And bouncing back to health so fast! Authorities unable to complete their five-day evaluation. Hmmm.

    Then there’s that polling yo-yo bounce: “TVNZ’s political editor, Jessica Mutch Mackay, on Tuesday evening (23/10/18) when she described how National’s numbers, in the Colmar-Brunton poll being conducted coincident with Jami-Lee’s jihad, were plummeting right up until the moment, mid-week, when the story detailing Ross’ improprieties began to dominate the headlines.”

    If the Nats knew the polling was happening, then they knew it was time to release the harassment complaints to limit the damage. Tipping the whistleblower over the edge into mental breakdown. Too bad. Can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.

    • Dukeofurl 7.1

      That ‘pushback’ from national is exactly how any PR practitioner would advise. If you want to bury an accusers story – and that was the principle aim, get it off the headlines- the answer to provide something with even more shock value. Considering that 2 of the women work in and around Bridges office and the 3rd scorned woman or wellington wife for Ross was a national MP means they have major ability to shape the storys outcome. Melanie Read isnt normally a national stooge so the involvement of the 4th woman, a political journalist, may be more than we think.

      • Sacha 7.1.1

        “the 4th woman, a political journalist”

        Really – where did that come from?

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@politics/2018/10/17/281200/jami-lee-ross-four-women-speak-out

          “She has talked to a number of people who have given detailed accounts, recordings and documents of their close working and personal relationships with the controversial politician.”
          The nature of the working relationship isnt mentioned but some idea of that helps the context.

          1)”A woman who moved in the same political circles as Ross says he targeted her for a relationship”- The Wellington Wife Mp ?

          2)Another woman says she “absolutely regrets” having an affair with Ross and now believes he manipulated her for information about key National Party figures.
          What started as a work friendship at Parliament became sexual- The Journalist

          3) A woman who worked in close quarters with Ross says he “nearly destroyed” her… – Works in the parliamentary offices

          4)The woman says she had been involved closely with Ross in political circles for a number of years and were at one time good friends.. -Works in parliamentary offices

          • veutoviper 7.1.1.1.1

            No. You are making an assumption on No 2 – who could well be an employee in Parliament. You are the only person who seems to have made an assumption about a journalist being involved. As i already pointed out to you, the person you thought was that journalist is a highly unlikely ‘choice.

            Also No 3 would seem to be much more likely to be someone in the wider Nat party network than an employee in Parliament.

            • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Why did a particular journalist have an exclusive about the details that a text message had gone to Bridges and Mallard. The PWC enquiry pinged Ross as having contacted this journalist from phone call logs.

              Why would someone at this point ( after Monday) suddenly stop political stories…?
              if it was just a work/professional relationship it would make this persons journalism career to be at the heart of NZs biggest political story in decades with more ‘exclusives’
              Or not if it was pillow talk- which is unsurprisingly common around parliament.

              • veutoviper

                “Why did a particular journalist have an exclusive about the details …”

                Here is the Exclusive on Friday morning 24 August, on RNZ.

                https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/364796/exclusive-text-plea-to-call-off-bridges-expense-leak-inquiry

                What it says is that RNZ – not Jo Moir – had heard from sources:

                “Sources have told RNZ Mr Bridges and the Speaker Trevor Mallard both received an anonymous text message last week from a person claiming to be responsible for leaking the information to Newshub.

                “RNZ was approached by a person with details of the text message this week.

                They said they were speaking out as they were worried for the safety of the text’s author and the potential impact of the investigation.”

                Nowhere does it say that the source went to Jo Moir.

                Jo Moir fronted the Exclusive – the probable reason being that she was the duty political reporter on early shift that morning. Nothing more.

                As I already pointed out to you, Moir appears to have worked daily for at least a week prior to last Monday according to her Twitter account, and is probably on leave and probably training for the Lake Taupo cycle race.

                • Dukeofurl

                  is that the best you can do…

                  A story that has it in bold ‘Exclusive’ is only second hand within RNZ.?

                  Political journalists working shifts ? Reality is they cultivate their anonymous sources and keep the scoops. Its a tough business where exclusives are hard currency.

                  Ross himself said at the time the PWC investigation made much of a ‘call to a friend’

                  And PWC was right to hone in on this particular story

    • Anne 7.2

      Yes. As Nicky Hager implies – and so does Bill – it was “Dirty Politics” in full bloom.

      And look who ultimately wins? Judith Collins.

      I get the impression that although JLR was a part of it, he was also being used by the dirty political game playing machine. Time will tell by by how much.

      • reason 7.2.1

        agree 100% Anne…. Thank goodness for Nicky Hager … and good on Bill for linking to him.

        I didn’t think it was possible to think lower of Cameron Slater …. but the more that is revealed of him the more disgusting he appears ….

        From Nicky Hagers article Bill linked to …. ” When I was researching Dirty Politics this wasn’t the main focus, but it was appalling the way some of those involved spoke to each other about women. I didn’t include most of it in the book because I imagined the effect on the people’s families.

        But last week’s revelations about Jami-Lee Ross bring it all back. Another young protégé of Slater and Lusk, Jordan Williams, now of the “Taxpayers Union”, had no problem getting information for Slater from a woman he was sleeping with. In chat logs leaked to me by the hacker Rawshark he is revealed offering to get information off her to help Slater “doing god’s work against the unions and Helen Kelly”. ”

        And regarding Nickys view …. “I think that the attacks on Bridges, aided by Lusk and Slater, are about making Collins the leader of the National Party.” ….

        …. it does look like a case of the vile promoting the vile.

        On the good side ,,,,, the only time I’m aware of Judith Collins increasing the popularity of the Nats …. was when John Key sacked her from being a minister … as he tried to give the impression of cleaning up the sneaky ugly tactics within his government during an election campaign.

    • mauī 7.3

      Ah right.. so after Ross had done two press conferences that had done maximum damage National decided to shut him up after the event… Now they’ve released him so he can go on making more damaging statements. Seriously??

      Keeping someone under observation for 48 hours sounds quite sensible if you ask me if they are a risk to themselves. No point in keeping someone in a place longer than is beneficial to them.

  8. Thanks bill – Hager is brilliant – a living hero imo. That article sums up exactly what I think and done in a respectful way to protect innocents. Some here – darth – could learn a lot from the content and, more importantly, tone of Hager’s hard hitting writing.

  9. mauī 9

    Slater just been interviewed on Radiolive. Saying that Jami-Lee is doing well and that things almost came to a tragic end, and he was the one to support him because noone else was. It does sound believable I have to say. Still can’t see the conspiracy.

    • JohnSelway 9.1

      “Still can’t see the conspiracy.”

      Because there isn’t one.

    • Dennis Frank 9.2

      I can’t either. Just the semblance of one. I agree that Nicky Hager did a great job of exposing the previous non-conspiracy in Dirty Politics. I trust he will do just as well exposing the current non-conspiracy in Dirty Politics 2. He’s made an excellent start by failing to acknowledge that Ross is a whistleblower. Marty must be thrilled.

      • marty mars 9.2.1

        Yes he is a wise man. I spose I always struggle with the shotgun approach because of collateral damage. A stealthy measured sniper shot is much more effective even if it takes longer to set up. You Dennis may well be a minigun mate 😊

        • Dennis Frank 9.2.1.1

          You may not have noticed, but I haven’t actually been shooting. Diplomacy so as to rectify the imbalance has been demanding my time & energy. I’ve always been a peacemaker: firm but fair. Sometimes necessity requires being firmer than others, particularly when someone’s trying to con others with bullshit. I agree re collateral damage btw.

  10. gsays 10

    thanks for the hager link, bill.

    a good read.

  11. ankerawshark 11

    I think it is understandable that we are questioning things, because there is a lot we haven’t been told (and isn’t ours to know)…………………

    This has been unlike anything we have seen in politics and I myself have been genuinely puzzled by what is going on.

    Some of it we will never find out.

    I think though if National initiated the sectioning process, that should be investigated (not necessarily for the public to know). Maybe that would be a role for the speaker or the director of Health……………………it needs to be clear to some authority that all was above board.

    BTW I believe that if people are interested in a topic on this website, they should be free to raise it and comment. The comments need to be respectful and while that won’t always be the case, we should be pulling each other up on that (ie the style of delivery, not the person)……………………..But there has been very real interest in this story as it has unfolded and personally I think that is understandable. I mean this with good grace Ad and Bill, but if there is a topic you don’t want to read about or one you want to emphasize, please act accordingly.

  12. patricia bremner 12

    Bill, what about the cash for candidates angle?
    What about the racial comments?
    And most concerning, the abuse of power?

  13. ianmac 13

    from Nicky: “…the influence more widely of this kind of attack politics in the National Party. …”

    Remember that in the leaked telephone conversation, Bridges said he wanted money for some more negative attack ads.”

    American Dirty Tricks alive and well in dear Simon’s hands?

  14. Dukeofurl 14

    Slater has given a timeline of the events of saturday night- may or may not be how it rolled as he does twist stuff.

    He [Bridges] also lied yesterday when he said he knew nothing about the serious incident on Saturday night that lead to the hospitalisation of Jami-Lee Ross. This, of course, belies the involvement of his chief of staff, Jamie Gray, who directly contacted Jami-Lee Ross’ psychiatrist shortly after 9:15 pm on Saturday night. That was after he’d been informed about a serious risk to Jami-Lee’s health by the very same female MP who wanted Jami-Lee Ross dead in an awful text message. So, a National MP called the police, Simon Bridges chief of staff was involved after 9:15 pm and two of his direct report staff members were involved in the hit job, along with the female MP…and Simon Bridges knows nothing?

    Bomber carries same story
    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/25/cameron-slater-drops-an-atomic-bomb-on-national/

    National had released a ‘statement’ of their version of events on Sunday which confirms their involvement – why otherwise would it be their business on saturday night for someone they expelled a week earlier.!

    A National Party spokesman said: “Over the past several weeks the National Party has taken seriously the mental health concerns raised by Mr Ross and the medical professionals he has been involved with. That has included seeking advice from medical professionals and involving Police wherever necessary to ensure support is made available to Mr Ross. It would not be appropriate to comment further.”

    The Herald is the only outlet which gave complete statement, others just had abbreviated version??

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146335

    • veutoviper 14.1

      “National had released a ‘statement’ of their version of events on Sunday which confirms their involvement – why otherwise would it be their business on saturday night for someone they expelled a week earlier.!

      The National Party statement in the Herald article DOES NOT say that they had been involved on Saturday night/Sunday, as you state.

      The statement starts with “Over the past several weeks ..” No mention of Saturday or Sunday.

      There IS evidence that over past weeks, the National Party’s actions have included “seeking advice from medical professionals and involving Police wherever necessary to ensure support is made available to Mr Ross.”

      I am happy to be proved wrong, but I have seen no actual statements etc that they were involved on Sat/Sun – just speculation and conspiracy theories.

      • JohnSelway 14.1.1

        You know what the worst thing about Duke and Dennis is?

        They give no fucks that there is actually a guy suffering a mental health crisis in all this. They just want their little conspiracy…

        • Dennis Frank 14.1.1.1

          Liar, liar, pants on fire. You know perfectly well that I have never claimed the existence of a conspiracy, and I haven’t seen Duke making that claim either. We’ve just been pointing out the circumstantial evidence that such a theory could be feasible. Lots of people in Aotearoa aren’t suckers for crap. If you were paying attention to what’s going on in the media, you’d be picking up on the groundswell of concern. You’re as much in denial as Bridges is.

          • veutoviper 14.1.1.1.1

            BS – he has just been trying to get through to people such as yourself, the legal situation in regard to some aspects of mental health issues.

            As have I and others with experience with the system. But because it does not fit with your assumptions you just ignore it.

            • Dennis Frank 14.1.1.1.1.1

              MIsrepresenting the views of others is morally corrupt behaviour when done deliberately. It’s close to defaming someone. If it was accidental, an apology would suffice, if the offender is honourable. If none is forthcoming, we draw the obvious conclusion.

              Note that I have made no attempt to misrepresent his views. Since Ross is a politician and whistleblower, I believe the assumption that he only possesses the rights of a private citizen is flawed. I said so, and see no need to keep repeating it. So I just ignore his evasion of the point.

              • JohnSelway

                “I believe the assumption that he only possesses the rights of a private citizen is flawed”

                Your beliefs are wrong. Ross is afforded all the same rights and freedoms as anyone else. That he hasn’t spoken or released a statement that fits with your expectations is irrelevant.

                • Dennis Frank

                  A parliamentarian has rights that citizens lack. A whistleblower likewise. He has both. You can’t prove I’m wrong about that, so why do you persist with repeated assertions that I am? You’re just in denial that his legal status has those extra two components that ours doesn’t.

                  • JohnSelway

                    What extra rights do you think Ross has as a parliamentarian and a whistleblower?

                    Outside free travel and the perks – I mean what extra rights in relation to this case.

                    Or actually – a better question: What rights do you think are being withheld from Ross?

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Most pertinently, the right to represent his constituents and expose corruption. Having his agency removed has prevented him continuing to do so. Then there’s the apparent removal of his phone to prevent him doing so.

                    • JohnSelway

                      He’s still the MP for Botany – that hasn’t changed.
                      He hasn’t lost the ability to speak about the alleged corruption
                      Outside of any reports to the contrary there is nothing to suggest he doesn’t have his phone back.

                      So… you have nothing

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Still in denial, eh? He lost his agency when taken in, so could not exercise his rights, and we still have no evidence that he has started to exercise them again after early release. Incapacitated. The reality of that surrounds you. All you need do is accept it.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Once again – there is nothing to stop him from exercising his rights. He isn’t on bail and there are no laws to stop him.

                      There are no laws, no considerations, no blockades and no agencies that can stop him from speaking, associating or moving.

                      He is a free man to do as free men want. That’s all there is to it

                    • Muttonbird

                      There are blockages stopping him from speaking. Bullying and threats from the National Party who have en masse piled in to Jami Lee Ross.

                      Not to mention the MP who sent him a text in August telling him he “deserved to die”, and if Slater is to be believed was in contact with Ross on Saturday night.

                      People don’t have episodes with no outside influence and in this case the National Party’s ferocious targeting of Ross is largely to blame.

                    • JohnSelway

                      “There are blockages stopping him from speaking. Bullying and threats from the National Party who have en masse piled in to Jami Lee Ross.”

                      Doesn’t actually stop him from saying whatever he wants to. If he chooses not to it’s his decision. But he hasn’t lost any rights to do so if he felt he wanted to.

                      “People don’t have episodes with no outside influence ”

                      Yes they do. Mental illness doesn’t discriminate.

                      Maybe National is to blame, maybe not. Until Ross talks about it, it is all speculation.

                    • Muttonbird

                      I’m astonished you think people who have apparently had a mental health episode such as this should be able to carry on as normal and rejoin the arena where they have been driven to the state they are in, as if nothing happened.

                      I’m not sure that tallies with the supposed empathy you’d like us to believe you show to people who are struggling.

                      And are you really saying Ross’ apparent episode on the weekend was without outside influence? That’s a stretch even for you.

                    • JohnSelway

                      “I’m astonished you think people who have apparently had a mental health episode such as this should be able to carry on as normal and rejoin the arena where they have been driven to the state they are in, as if nothing happened.”

                      I’m fucking astonished at your ass backwards view of mental illness.
                      Did Sean Fitzpatrick give up rugby? Did Robin Williams quit acting? Did Bourdain stop presenting?

                      What the fuck is wrong with you

                  • veutoviper

                    Dennis:

                    1. In relation to LEGAL rights, a parliamentarian ( eg Ross) has exactly the same privacy and civil rights as any other person has in respect of their medical history, diagnosis etc – whether in relation to physical or mental health. Their diagnosis etc is NOT subject to release on the grounds of public interest.

                    2. You can focus on psychological aspects, holistic issues etc* as much as you like, but at the end of the day, it is LEGAL rights that matter and take precedence.

                    3. In terms of legal rights, procedures etc, there is only ONE difference. That is in relation to the removal of a sitting MP with mental health issues. I am not even going to attempt to summarise the procedures etc relating to this. There are many real legal experts currently grappling with these provisions but they are complicated, take a long time and involve the direct involvement of the Speaker etc.

                    4. As to ‘whistleblower’ rights, the legislation on this is actually full of holes as I well know – at considerable cost and I don’t mean financially.

                    I appreciate that you may be well meaning, but it is quite obvious to me your skills and experience are not in legal matters or machinery of government, public administration, etc.

                    * Such as articles like this. Have no problems with such articles in terms of putting things into perspective re the pressures etc.
                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108053245/how-parliament-can-put-pressure-on-mps-mental-health

            • KJT 14.1.1.1.1.2

              My reading as well. Because ,those of us who have had experiences with the mental health system, doesn’t fit with what Dukefoil wants to believe happened, he prefers to talk past us.

              • veutoviper

                Thanks, the bruises on my head from beating it against the brick wall of his denial are getting beyond a joke.

                But LOL – just realised that you said Dukefoil whereas in this thread it is DF!

                The two are merging into one!

                I resorted to this yesterday – https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24-10-2018/#comment-1541527

                My mother would not have approved!

                • KJT

                  The effect of reading parrots repeating the others lines. Perhaps?

                  LOL.

                  • veutoviper

                    You just reminded me that I have not put my parrots to bed! That is not covered their cages – for their mental security, and my not being woken at the crack of dawn.

                    Yes – I do genuinely have parrots – down to three male parrots as two (Sth American conures) had partners who died last year, and the third (a talking Cockatoo) is EVIL and has never had a partner. Would probably kill her. They all get time out of cages, but have to keep the big boy separate from the two smaller ones for that reason.

                    Done. Wish I could do that to some others here! Broke my rule tonight of not reading/commenting in the evening. Not good. Cheers.

                    • KJT

                      15 Cockatiels. 2 ringnecks and a pair of Alexandrines.

                      My wife breeds them.

                      Maybe we should put covers over some commenters for a bit.

                    • patricia bremner

                      Veutoviper, We house sit in Aussie for a couple with an Alexandrine parrot. When he shrieks we cover him.. He would then go “Ohhh” In a very suggestive manner. A right crack up.

        • veutoviper 14.1.1.2

          I know – and not just them.

          I really admire and respect you, considering what you have put up with here.

          You have been open and up front about your own mh situation – but not in “I need kid glove treatment” way. Some have seen this as a weakness and piled in with false accusations etc etc. You have stood your ground well but please, walk away sometimes. It/they are not worth it. I know it is your ‘thing’ but be kind to yourself too.

          • JohnSelway 14.1.1.2.1

            Thanks man. It was only recently that I stopped hiding my mental illness problems (as well as issues I had with alcohol which I used as self medication) and opened up with it which is why I am now so serious about it. Nearly 20 years of hiding which did me know good.

            And yeah, these bastards are best left alone now.

            Respect, my man.

            • veutoviper 14.1.1.2.1.1

              Woman — I keep tell you! LOL.

              • JohnSelway

                Ha! I call everyone ‘man’ or ‘dude’ and my girlfriend hates it!

                She refuses to answer to me unless she gets her name or ‘baby’ as a epitaph.

                • Dukeofurl

                  Its you again , hijacking everything with your own issues. And its to give an old fashioned ‘careful what you say ‘ as its all hush hush.
                  Clearly what you need is one of those T shirts that says proudly – Guess whos back in Rehab.
                  Enough of the 1980s style stigma and last taboos that mean we are silenced to satisfy your agenda.

                  Do you live in the real world where every professional has a duty of confidentiality but that doesnt stop talking everyone else talking engineering, accounting ,legal or even veterinary issues.

                  If this all too distressing- I suggest, respectfully, find your own seclusion away from this and similar blogs.

                  • JohnSelway

                    Huh?

                    Who is tying to silence you? What the fuck are you talking about? Is there a point you a making?

                    Huh?

                    • Dukeofurl

                      Huh
                      Heres you wanting others silenced –
                      ‘They give no fucks that there is actually a guy suffering a mental health crisis in all this.

                      Much the same yesterday- when it was all about confidentiality,- Dont anyone dare speak-
                      When no one was talking about treatment options or medication let alone hearing from someone involved in his care.
                      That quite rightly would be outrageous

                    • JohnSelway

                      No one is telling you to be silenced

                • McFlock

                  I doubt she’d respond if you gave her an epitaph 😉

                • veutoviper

                  Like your GF already! Say Hi from me.

                  Oh Fuck. One of the “Last word Ds” has reappeared. When I have eaten my wonderful Vegan salad, I will step in to divert …. Bing gmib etc

            • KJT 14.1.1.2.1.2

              Also, Admiring your patience with various silly buggers on here. At least on this subject. The same people seem to be able to discuss other subjects sensibly. This one seems to evoke responses, which make me think they are terrified of what they see in themselves.

              I would have been swearing, at their obdurate ignorance, by now.

      • Dennis Frank 14.1.2

        Correct, we only have Slater’s word against Bridges so far, and he’s an opponent. In the interests of context, fwiw, here’s what he wrote immediately prior to the section Duke quoted:

        “Simon Bridges rang me on Sunday and didn’t give two hoots about the welfare of his former front bench man. He rang to explain himself and his actions and to tell me he sleeps well at night. He even went so far as to tell me repeatedly that he is a man of integrity. He didn’t really like it when I pointed out that men of integrity rarely need to tell people that.”

        “Nonetheless, what the phone call revealed to me is that Simon Bridges is scared and that he is lying and covering up. When I pointed out the logic and the facts behind their shabby put up hit job using Melanie Reid and Newsroom and I asked him about the involvement of his executive assistant and his events manager, he had the audacity to say he knew nothing about their stories until they were published.”

        “When confronted with the fact that two weeks prior to them being published he had used those same stories to try to push Jami-Lee Ross out of parliament but instead put him on sick leave, he still denied he knew about them.”

        “He seriously expects media and people to believe that two of his closest staff members were talking to Melanie Reid for a year about a front bench MP and they said absolutely nothing to him.” Denial. Do it hard enough, it just might work. Try harder, Simon.

      • Dukeofurl 14.1.3

        The key phrase is ‘involving police’

        The only time police were involved with JLR ‘s care was ?
        Why would national even make a statement on Sunday night- theres plenty of time they have ‘refused to comment’ on events.

  15. ianmac 15

    As much as I despise the Slater history, the words quoted above have a ring of credibility. Maybe because Slater has himself had mental health issues means he would be less likely to mess around with this case.
    On the other hand Bridges refused to answer questions about his or his Party involvement at the weekend. In fact the reality is that Bridges really needs to get his body talk under control.
    Telling everyone how honest he is, is not good enough old chap.

    • Exactly, ianmac! Slater may be loathsome in many ways, but he does have insight into that kind of health issue. I think his story is pretty credible, though a bit over-egged in the telling.

      If Ross did threaten suicide on the weekend then the response from whoever called the Police is spot on. I don’t get why the Nats won’t confirm it was one of theirs. In this whole sorry saga, intervening to save his life is the one thing the Tories have got right.

      • JohnSelway 15.1.1

        I would suggest that perhaps Ross doesn’t want the details public

        • Ed 15.1.1.1

          John, do you come on this site to defend the National Party?
          I do hope you are against the ‘negative and destructive style of attack politics’ they use.
          Let a little sunlight shine on their actions.

          • JohnSelway 15.1.1.1.1

            I have never defended the National Party. I just don’t make shit up and call out people who do

            • veutoviper 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Hey, tag team partner – got your back.

              This is my one, OK?
              When I have finished my vegan salad. New recipe I am trying out. Yuuum. Am quite serious, it is. Will trade again. +1111

              Take a break. Say hi to GF. kia kaha

              • Muttonbird

                Take a break.

                +1!

                • veutoviper

                  I think you are the one that should take a break. I used to respect you but after your behaviour to JS the other night it will take a lot for me to respect you again.

                  • Muttonbird

                    I called him a National supporter? Big deal!

                    I’ve yet to see that commenter criticise National on any point at all in their very worst week in living memory. Not one peep about their practices around and toward the whistle-blower.

                    I have seen a lot of f’ing and blinding toward other commenters though. Not good.

                    To me JohnSelway empowers the continued use of attack politics by the Nats when he fails to recognise their role in this.

                    I’ve got a good bullshit meter and it’s hitting 10 right now.

                    • JohnSelway

                      “I called him a National supporter? Big deal!”

                      Because its a lie, that’s why.

                      “I’ve yet to see that commenter criticise National on any point at all in their very worst week in living memory. ”

                      So? Show me where I have ever supported National? I don’t and…well, don’t.

                      “To me JohnSelway empowers the continued use of attack politics by the Nats when he fails to recognise their role in this.”

                      No, I just don’t wax lyrical and make up stupid stories. All I have done is try to explain to people how they are wrong about how the mental health system works in NZ

                      “I’ve got a good bullshit meter and it’s hitting 10 right now.”

                      Get a new meter.

                    • Muttonbird

                      You are what you post.

                      I believe you are a relatively new commenter here and I think and you’ve been fixated on one issue for whatever reason. It might be useful for others to hear your thoughts on other political issues if indeed you have any.

                      That would enable people to see where you are coming from.

                      I did manage to catch one comment from you bagging David Cunliffe for not being likeable enough and his demise wasn’t the fault of the media at all it was just that Cunliffe was so shit.

                      I guess the issue I have with you is that your interest is so very very very narrow and that raises some alarm bells.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      Not satisfied with demanding to know the minute details of JLR’s mental health, Muttonbird now requires that JohnSelway be vetted for impure political opinions.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Fucking bizarre right.

                      “you’ve been fixated on one issue”

                      I have made it very clear why this issue is important to me. Because as a sufferer of chronic depression and anxiety (technically Bi-Polar) seeing attitudes that are wrong, outdated, misguided and almost insulting I find myself getting very annoyed at the people displaying such attitudes. You have no care for the mental health of Ross and only wish your sad conspiracy to be true and will demean anyone who says otherwise.

                      You’re a sad person with dumb ideas and provably wrong on almost everything you have said on this topic.

                      Your silly demand to know my opinions on other topics remind me of the sysops at Conservapedia who demand purity to the conservative ideology before any argument is taken seriously. I need to prove nothing to you and your behavior comes across as desperate and completely devoid of any rational or honest inquiry. Choosing to insult the other party as a ‘national supporter’ as if that were to legitimize your own POV (which it doesn’t and you are wrong that I am such a supporter)
                      .
                      My interests are vast but I don’t really have much to add to The Standard, I prefer to read it and not comment for the most part, except on this issue which I take fucking seriously, know what I am talking about and will do my upmost to make sure the actual truth of the matter is known. Everything else I am happy to sit back and learn. But on this I know whats what and you fucking don’t.

                      So, you know, back the fuck off because you are out of your depth. I have knowledge, you ain’t got dick.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Fireblade. This one is interesting because JS argues that high profile cases are naturally going to ‘garner more attention’. Something which he’s fought very aggressively against in the Ross case.

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-03-2018/#comment-1460687

                      That read is an interesting 180 from JohnSelway in all respects. There he defends the scrutiny of the Labour camp incidents, and here he attacks the scrutiny of incidents 10 times more serious.

                      As Anne said on that thread, concern troll indeed!

                    • Muttonbird

                      Mcflock. I have not demanded to ‘know the minutes of JLR’s mental health’.

                      That is an attack the National Party would be proud of. I hope you are proud too.

                      I have however wanted to know the timings, not the content, of communications between Ross and National MP’s and staffers on the night.

                    • JohnSelway

                      No, I didn’t defend the scrutiny. I said it will get more scrutiny, much the same as this gets more scrutiny.

                      Weak, weak, man. Really weak

                    • Muttonbird

                      JohnSelway.

                      You seem to consider yourself a whistleblower on those here who hold opinions which are “wrong, outdated, misguided and almost insulting”.

                      Are you finally getting to grips with what the National Party has done to whistleblower, Jami Lee Ross?

                    • JohnSelway

                      Not even making sense now. Displaying no understanding.

                      You have nothing.

                    • veutoviper

                      Muttonbird, I don’t know what you were on the other night, but you were off this planet – eg, your accusations time and time again in an aggressive and stalking manner that John is a Nat supporter, and your refusal to accept his repeated replies back to you in a reasonable and non-aggressive manner that he is not a Nat supporter.

                      So we all must pass an induction test of criticising National to a standard you find acceptable for us to participate here?

                      Since when did you become the arbitrator of who can participate here, the views we must hold, and the subjects we must discuss?

                      As you say, you are what you post. There was no meter of any sort working the other night in respect of your behaviour and posts.

                      The only point that John has been trying to make over this whole sorry situation is the procedures and legal position of people going through what has happened to Ross – using his own experience of the mental health system over many years. Nothing more, and nothing less.

                      And what he has been saying has been backed up by others – including me – who have actual experience of the system (personal, or in a support capacity, or as someone who works in the mental health profession) and the relevant law.

                      And yes, John has posted his views on other political issues over the last year or so. Obviously you must have missed them, but I didn’t and interacted with him on these.

                      It has been interesting observing various people’s reactions to the events of the last week – including yours. Some of it has been eye-opening, especially in relation to treatment of people who have been open about their own mental health issues and history as John has been.

                      As I have said already here today, I admire and respect John for his openness in relation to his own problems and history and will continue to support him in this regard.

                      It is a pity some others don’t see that.

                      [How about we take a step back from this and start afresh. I have respect for each of you – MS]

                    • Muttonbird

                      And cheers for looking that up, Fireblade. Really useful and something I couldn’t locate.

                      [How about we take a step back from this and start afresh. I have respect for each of you – MS]

                    • JohnSelway

                      veutoviper –

                      Thanks my ma…..my friend 🙂

                      Muttonbird – WTF? How does Fireblades link even relate to what we are talking about? You’re reaching, failing. You remind me of the Black Knight from The Holy Grail.

                    • Muttonbird

                      VV. You have told both JS and myself to take a break. Who are you to be telling people when to comment!

                      I’ve said what I was on the very next day. I apologised in general for getting heat-up and explained that the shock and predictability that the Nats would push this guy into a situation where he couldn’t continue his free critique of National Party processes over the last 10 years had got me irate.

                      If you would cut me and others the same slack you cut JohnSelway, THAT WOULD BE GREAT!

                      Or do we have to lay our lives bare on this forum?

                      [How about we take a step back from this and start afresh. I have respect for each of you – MS]

                  • KJT

                    Hey Titi. Your attacks on John Selway are not dissimilar to the NACT’s style.

                    Even Wayne Mapp. The apologist for murdering civilians, hasn’t had that level of attack. Here!

            • Dukeofurl 15.1.1.1.1.2

              Speaking for someone else? Perhaps Ross doesn’t want the details public. You say.

              Yeah right that’s the correct conclusion from someone who spent last week telling the whole country about Nationals dirty washing. They definitely didn’t what any of that public. …oh and he has a mate in Slater..he too wont want any of his mates details public.
              Add in the public interest of this whole political-medical drama that we couldn’t make up… Yep let’s not make anything public…… Which has to be the crassest statement of the day.

              Yes Mps kids and what they do aren’t in the public interest. The details of medical professionals diagnosis and treatment aren’t public interest.
              Everything that led up to that is. Including if a chief of staff of a political leader was directly involved in compulsory detaining of an Mp, likely at the instigation of another Mp

              • JohnSelway

                How many times do you need to be told…public interest does not mean anything.

                It’s all Ross’s business and you have yet to provide any reasoning outside of “the public interest” why anyone should know his medical situation.

                Let me ask you – who do you think should divulge these details if Ross doesn’t want to. His doctor? The police? Staff at the mental health centre? Who?

                The fact that multiple people have told you the same thing and no one agree with you and you are unable to even cite a law or statute as to why you feel you should be right in demanding these things should give you pause for thought.

                You have been shown to be wrong on everything, on every angle about everything to do with this and can provide nothing in support of your position outside “I think…”.

                Gimmie one, just one, actual reason why you are right about this because everything says you are wrong. At least be up front enough to admit it. If you can’t it just shows you to be a spineless fool who doesn’t have the decent courtesy to admit they might have got it wrong from the very beginning.

                • Dukeofurl

                  Public interest has been on the March in many court cases , this year. public interest has become a defense in defamation law.
                  Previously of course privacy of an individuals actions might be trumped if it’s in the public interest, especially regrading communications.
                  Usually anything in the political sphere is public interest, there the problem is politicians covering it up.
                  It’s almost an axiom a politicians actions trump any privacy a normal citizen might have in the same situation. As long as they acting politically of course.

                  As for Ross, I’m not involved in his medical care so I can say what I bloodly like about that..why not a swath of Nationals MPs have done precisely that up til now.
                  Even though his doctors can’t give out details without his permission, being an Mp means the Speaker has the right to know, which he may share with us. ….in the public interest of course.

                  As for you Selway, as you bought it up. Stick to your meds. Playing a Gosman clone here is very boring

                  • JohnSelway

                    The Speaker has a right to know, The Speaker has no right to tell anyone else.

                    The Speaker cannot share those details with anyone unless Ross gives his consent.

                    • Dukeofurl

                      False.
                      The Speakers right to know is statutory and isnt subject to JLR consent and as he isnt a medical professional isnt limited in the choice he makes about further release- which would be in the public interest to do so.
                      Normally a doctor can consult another doctor about a patients care, but then that doctor cant release any information without patients consent.

                      The Speakers knowledge of the medical details is outside that ‘circle of consent from the patient’

                    • veutoviper

                      Leave it John. Let him just wallow in his ignorance and refusal to listen to anyone else.

                    • solkta

                      @Dukeofurl

                      The speaker is acting as an agent of the Crown and in doing so has to comply with the Privacy Act. The speaker is provided with that information for the purposes of determining if the MP is fit to continue and i assume also that nothing dodgy has happened. He is not provided with the information for the purposes of sharing it publicly.

                    • JohnSelway

                      I’m too busy today anyway. Not enough hours on this sunny day to spend my time on the ignorant.

                  • Fireblade

                    Speaking about JLR’s privacy, Radio Live talk back have been discussing him all week, including interviews with Slater.

                    If someone is genuinely concerned about JLR’s privacy, they should lodge a compliant with Radio Live and also phone their talk back. They should also lodge a formal complaint with The Broadcasting Standards Authority. I would also suggest making a complaint to Cameron Slater and posting comments on his website.

                    • McFlock

                      You heard it. You read it. You make the complaint.
                      Unless you don’t care about his privacy, of course.

                    • JohnSelway

                      All they did was talk about what was public and the only things that can be made public.

                      Try again.

                      I’ll catch up later because I’m gonna go fuck my girlfriend and watch The Haunting of Hill House. A great show but not nearly as scary as some say.

                    • Chris

                      Do you, mcflock, care about his privacy?

                    • Muttonbird

                      I’ll catch up later because I’m gonna go fuck my girlfriend

                      JohnSelway

                      Have I missed some context here? Did JohnSelway actually say that on this forum after trying to take the high road on mental health?

                      Can’t imagine his smattering of defenders here will be happy with him right now…

                    • McFlock

                      @ chris
                      To a certain degree. I definitely care about healthcare confidentiality and people’s desire to eliminate it for impulses I just don’t understand.

                      @muttonbird
                      wtf you on about now? Is it only nat supporters who say fuck?

                    • Muttonbird

                      Mcflock. That turn of phase reduces relationships to a mutual using rather than anything supportive and healthy.

                      I assure you I’m no prude and I’m really surprised you’d accept it.

                      Feel like I don’t know this place anymore. I’ve made a lot of effort over the years here to draw attention to a wide range of social injustice. Many hours reading and commenting, particularly on poor housing, and community disruption and the effects it has on children. Perhaps hours my own family couldn’t afford…

                      And yet some foul mouthed blow in who happens to claim bipolar disorder has some veteran posters at his feet!

                    • JohnSelway

                      It’s not just me fucking my girlfriend, she fucks me too.

                      Sorry my parlance isnt to your standard. And yeah – I have bipolar. And yes, I’ve spent nearly 20 years in he mental health system. And no, I’m not a national supporter.

                      Goodnight

                    • Muttonbird

                      That was quick! Any other personal problems you want to report?

                    • McFlock

                      @muttonbird

                      Sometimes people like to fuck. Sometimes they like to make love. As long as everyone involved is up for it, who cares?

                      As for what you’re trying to do, fair enough. But disagreeing with you doesn’t makes someone a nat. It might just mean they are trying to warn you off a social injustice you haven’t noticed.

          • marty mars 15.1.1.1.2

            Why don’t you keep out of it ed and please stop slurring people – remember when you kept asking people to be nice? Take your own fucking advice is my advice.

  16. George 16

    The whole thing with National and JLR etc is a great example of Karpmans drama triangle. Everyone is switching places from persecuted to victim to rescuer, faster than you can change channels. It’s fascinating to observe. Overall massively dysfunctional..now Cameron Slater is both rescuer and persecutor with JLR and Simon Bridges both victim and persecutor..
    I think that is what makes it so much of a hook for people. The speed at which the drama keeps playing out. And changing.
    I wonder if they will switch to the triangle of Empowerment at any stage? They are all getting lots of psychological payoffs right now for the roles they have… Simon would like to pretend the triangle has gone away, but he can’t..so on it goes.

    • ianmac 16.1

      Largely agree with you there George.
      Of course we may be getting distortions because we fluctuate between believing an issue because of “who” said it and then with “what” is said.
      Hence the Slater dichotomy.

    • veutoviper 16.2

      A great observation, George.

      I have really appreciated your contributions over the last few days. It can be a toxic place here, and perspective is lost etc, and it is really good to get new views – from a much more objective stance. So, welcome.

    • Treetop 16.3

      Your perspective of persecutor, victim and rescuer is a good one.

  17. OnceWasTim 18

    It’s now 2300 hours, so can we now say “it’s Goodnight from Him, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Goodnight from Him, and even an occasional Her” and then everyone else on the thread.

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