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Enter Sandmann

Written By: - Date published: 8:32 pm, January 21st, 2019 - 220 comments
Categories: capitalism, class war, International, us politics - Tags: ,

The privileged white kid who smugly insulted native American singer Nathan Phillips has put out a statement so Trump like in its self pitying tone that it may actually be parody.

Nicholas Sandmann says that far from taking the piss out the Native American elder and Vietnam vet, he was the real victim:

“The protester everyone has seen in the video began playing his drum as he waded into the crowd, which parted for him. I did not see anyone try to block his path,”.

“He locked eyes with me and approached me, coming within inches of my face. He played his drum the entire time he was in my face.”

“To be honest, I was startled and confused as to why he had approached me.”

Sandmann says he “believed that by remaining motionless and calm, I was helping defuse the situation.”

“I said a silent prayer that the situation would not get out of hand,”

Happily, he was “not intentionally making faces at the protestor. I did smile at one point because I wanted him to know that I was not going to become angry, intimidated or be provoked into a larger confrontation.”

His mum, the Vice President of a finance company, claimed her son was abused by “black muslims”, with no evidence whatsoever. So far, so Trump.

About now, some readers will be asking themselves whether its fair to publicise the actions of a child. Sandmann is apparently 17. Which is old enough to get shot by a racist cop if you’re black in Kentucky, so let’s not fret too much, ae?

Sandmann attends a catholic school for the sons of rich White Kentuckians. How white?

This white:

 

 

 

This is what Trump really means for America; a snowflake nation where the KKK don’t wear sheets, they wear old school ties and MAGA caps.

Where being a racist, smug little shit is instant victimhood.

Where racists have feelings, maaan.

Well, fuck that.

Nicholas Sandmann is less than zero.

This guy, on the other hand,  is an American hero. He has genuine sympathy for the people who abused him and fears for their futures. He has more compassion than I can muster, for sure.

Nathan Phillips for President?

Why not?

 

 

220 comments on “Enter Sandmann”

  1. McFlock 1

    But that’s the thing about this kid. He’s just a kid. He’s a privileged kid indoctrinated for his entire life, he was shipped to DC for a conservative rally, and by the look of it he now has professional representation on how to minimise the personal responsibility for his actions. But he’s still a kid.

    The best case for him is that when he’s 30, he’s not a fucking arsehole. Otherwise he ends up crying that he likes beer and totally wasn’t all rapey, and then gets a promotion.

    But at this stage, I do feel a bit sorry for him. The worst thing we know about him is that he was a MAGA shitheel acting like an entitled fuckwit because he was in DC as instructed to demand entitled fuckwits impose their religious fundamentalism on innocent women.

    I feel a bit sorry for him in the same way I feel a bit sorry for the kids in the Hitler Youth or volksturm, or maybe suicide bombers wearing vests other people manipulated them into putting on.

    These kids are the dolt45s of tomorrow. I doubt this one has the people around him to make it a genuinely teachable moment for him. I suspect they will reinforce his conceit. But sometimes people do manage to offload the shit they are given as a kid, or at least recognise it as shit. But then thoughts and prayers are worthless – all I can do is hope that he and his mates learn to not be shitheels.

    • Stunned Mullet 1.1

      Yep agree. Furthermore, I think TRPs ‘burn the wtch’ Solution leads nowhere.

      At the risk of a ban this entire post has a similar tone and feel to the polical discourse in the USA which is currently vile and counterproductive.

    • The worst thing we know about him is that he was a MAGA shitheel acting like an entitled fuckwit because he was in DC as instructed to demand entitled fuckwits impose their religious fundamentalism on innocent women.

      Er, yes. Somehow I find myself not liking the guy…

      • McFlock 1.2.1

        Yeah I wouldn’t have him around to dinner, either. But I suspect I wouldn’t ever want to know his parents, while the kid might grow up.

    • Gosman 1.3

      He was shipped to DC for a conservative rally??? This is different to left wingers taking their kids along on protests how?

      • Psycho Milt 1.3.1

        The male authorities of a male-only private religious school sent their male students to shout about what should be permitted or forbidden to women. Of more interest would be how exactly you think that’s in any way similar to people taking their kids with them on a protest.

        • Gosman 1.3.1.1

          I think children should be allowed to attend peaceful protests of any type.

          • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.1.1

            Should they show respect to anyone there?

            • Gosman 1.3.1.1.1.1

              Depends on your definition of respect. According to the boys account this Native American gentleman did not show much respect to them. To get respect you need to earn it.

              • McFlock

                Smart teens respect the elderly because even though they don’t know where those older ones have been, odds are it’s been more interesting than school.

                • Gosman

                  Smart elderly people don’t go out of their way to bang drums in people’s faces.

                  • McFlock

                    Why not? Next you’ll say smart people don’t do any other sort of prayer in public, either.

                    • Gosman

                      Do you think you should march up to people and start praying in their faces really loudly?

                    • McFlock

                      Even going by the kid’s account, getting between two groups of fuckwits and doing anything different can deflect or provide a starting point to defuse the situation. Me, I used to tell jokes in those situations. Praying, singing, even setting up a run of dominos can work.

                      The only dude who comes out of that looking good is the guy with the drum.

              • Robert Guyton

                According to the boys?
                I watched the boys and don’t put too much pay to their account…
                You think the “Native American” wasn’t deserving of respect?
                Why’s that?
                Do you believe the boys were right to disrespect him?
                They were justified in disrespecting him?
                Do tell…

                • Gosman

                  I’ve watched the raw footage from the African Hebrew Israelites (who started the whole confrontation). It is clear the Native American man decided to involve himself in a dispute between two groups by coming over and targeting the White kids and bang his drum in their faces. Real mature and peaceful decision there.

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-21/native-american-surrounded-maga-trump-supporters-what-happened/10730988?fbclid=IwAR2ZoGgxy9hFQJ9V4g9jBiZnaEovGrwrJEC1nFR8jpilxRC4nrw8pC7x67c

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Gosman – what do you think the elderly man was trying to achieve?
                    And what do you think the young man was expressing through his demeanour?
                    I’d genuinely like to know (as always).

                    • Gosman

                      The young man explained his actions. You are free to disagree with this and attribute a more sinister interpretation.

                      I believe the elderly man thought the African Hebrew Israelites were being intimidated and was attempting to intervene on their behalf, perhaps in some idea that his actions would dissuade the school kids from doing something. This is ironic considering the actions of some of the African Hebrew Israelites prior to this confrontation was to criticise the Native Americans present for their belief. In attempting to protect the people he felt needed protecting he put himself in to the confrontation and acted in a manner which could potentially be seen as disrespectful to the kids.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Well, his intent was good. His technique, not so much. To intervene effectively & defuse tension, the right rhythm would have got both groups dancing. Probably didn’t get training by a shaman when young, I guess…

                  • peterlepaysan

                    Gosman, I am surprised you are still in NZ. The White House desperately needs your talents. Sanders, Conway, Trump need your skills, desperately’.

                    Answer the call, wanker.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Was this kid doing anything to earn any?

                Or perhaps his own actions demanded a showing of disrespect?

                • Gosman

                  Why, in your opinion, didn’t the Native American man show any disrespect for his actions?

          • Morrissey 1.3.1.1.2

            So no kids at a Trump rally then.

        • Wayne 1.3.1.2

          Seems identical to me.

          Young people go on demonstrations. As you can see they are not all left wing demonstrations.

          In my experience many Catholics are very focussed on abortion and other related matters. I got more letters from Catholics on various moral issues than from any other group. Letters were from both men and women, with a majority being women. While you might not agree with their views, for many Catholics abortion goes right to heart of the sanctity of life. That is why the Catholic Church will never relent on this issue, though they are more accomodating an contraception. Which is not to say that the Catholic Church should determine the law, but they certainly have the right of protest.

          From what I have seen and read, the momentum of events was rather different to that portrayed in the initial video. But in a series of spontaneous actions, not everyone is going to act in the best possible manner. The Black Israelites seem to have been the worst with the nature of their taunts.

          But basically a minor event in a minor demonstration. Even though the contrast between the white teenager and the elderly Native American as shown in the original photo was truly striking. It was a photo that inevitably invited the discussion (and condemnation) that occurred.

          An interesting point is that in America as soon as you say “veteran”, it amounts to a free pass or an explanation for all sorts of things. Not the same attitude here.

          • McFlock 1.3.1.2.1

            I did a protest where we used buses once. We organised it ourselves. The times I see kids at leftish protests, their caregivers are there beside them.

            But I guess the right wing just ship their kids wherever with insufficient supervision.

      • McFlock 1.3.2

        Were the parents at the rally too? Apparently it was a school trip. The parents would have signed slips to allow their kids to be shipped off to rally on their behalf.

        So the difference is that the kids were sent (with obviously insufficient supervision), while their parents signed cheques rather than walking the walk.

  2. DJ Ward 2

    From the link.

    Phillips had approached Sandmann, but well before that, both his group and Sandmann’s, which had taken part in the anti-abortion rally, were confronted by a third group that appeared to be affiliated with the Black Hebrew Israelite movement.

    Videos show members of the religious group yelling disparaging and profane insults at the students, who taunt them in return. Video also shows the Native Americans being insulted by the small religious group.

    Sandmann wrote that the students were called “racists,” ”bigots,” ”white crackers” and “incest kids” by the third group. He said a teacher chaperone gave the students permission to begin their school chants “to counter the hateful things that were being shouted at our group.”

    ……………..

    So originally they were not being racist. But a group of Blacks were racist at them and the American Indians. Caught on video. So they begin there school songs which are not racist.

    Then the American Indian approaches the boy who doesn’t move, doesn’t say anything, and does nothing. The American Indian is in his face beating his drum, chanting his song. Invading the boys personnel space.

    How was the boy racist?
    He is not required to move for nobody, so did nothing wrong.

    Why isn’t the news about the black racists, those videos of actual racism and actual racists.

    • Anne 2.1

      The black racists were Israelis. And you’ve just revealed yourself as a full blown racist. Why am I not surprised.

      • DJ Ward 2.1.1

        I’m not racist fool.
        Grow up.

        How about answering the question?
        How was the boy racist?

        So you condone people being racist then.
        Anne’s logic for racism.
        If the victim of racism is white it’s ok.
        Therefore Anne is the racist.

        My best freinds have been islander, Indian, Maori. I was raised in the army camp schools. My first girlfriend was Chinese. My present best freind and brother in law is also part American Indian.

        Take your bigotry and slander elsewhere Anne.

        [You need to calm down, DJ. Anne is not a racist, nor is she a fool. Discuss the post by all means, but don’t be insulting to other commenters. TRP]

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1

          In my experience here, the general idea is that because only white people have power, then only white people can be racist. Because only males have power, only males can be sexist.

          All white males are therefore by definition, misogynist bigots. It’s the natural consequence of an ideology that can only analyse people in terms of their demographic group and the power relationship assigned to that group.

          This particular incident has little to do with this 17yr old individual; he’s merely a sacrificial scapegoat in a much broader goal to demonise what he’s supposed to represent. They’re “less than zero”, thus sub-human.

          The next step will be the call to exterminate.

          • te reo putake 2.1.1.1.1

            Red, your logic is faulty. It is about the capacity to be misogynist bigots. There is no ‘by definition’ or default position that all white men are misogynist bigots, however, the potential exists.

            The way to prove this is by not being a misogynist bigot. There’s a lot of men who aren’t, and a lot of men who recognise that that they were and are trying to change.

            • Gosman 2.1.1.1.1.1

              You miss his wider point. By making racism about power dynamics you introduce a degree of subjectivity which allows people to argue that only White males can be racist because they apparently have all the power in the World. I have seen this myself in discussions with Black African’s on politics pages about Africa. They argue that Africa is only for African’s (i.e. black Africans). When it is pointed out that this is racist they retort that Black people cannot be racist.

            • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1.2

              It is interesting that people can’t go right to the situation and see it as a misuse of power and lack of respect one. Misuse by the white male
              young man of the group with advantages over the Omaha Indian who is an older male who is not respected, along with his group.

              It would have been so simple, fair, reasonable and respectful of the others to the white youth group, to step aside and let the Indian group go forward with their own way of ritual advocating for themselves. But the young white male, acted as a lead to his group, in opposing. Some people can see him as a sort of Ghandi apparently. If so, you haven’t started to think about fairness and respect for different others.

              • Gosman

                Why is banging a drum in someone’s face respectful?

                • One Two

                  The drum you are banging, gosman..is irrelevant..

                  Can you figure out why that is?

                • mpledger

                  Why is standing with your face in front of someone’s drums respectful?

                  Who has the right of way with respect here – the Native American who’s a veteran of the Vietnam war or the 17 year old school boy on a school trip.

                  • ropata

                    The silly old git was looking for trouble and trying to make a scene. Obviously succeeded in making a viral video and stirring up festering resentment in the USA. He wanted to put a big target on some white boys who had done nothing to him.

                  • DJ Ward

                    That’s racist. You gave priority or rights to a person based on there race.

                    The boy has no way of knowing he was a Veteran.
                    Why is a grown man confronting a schoolboy.

              • ropata

                The schoolboys WERE respectful.. the elderly Native American gent went out of his way to get in their faces. They were kids on a school trip, targeted by crazy activists on two separate occasions.

                Or is it OK to get a free shot at school children because they are privileged and white?

            • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1.3

              It is about the capacity to be misogynist bigots.

              The idea that we all have the capacity to do evil is a theme I’ve returned to quite often. Of course there are white supremacists, bigots and misogynists, and of course they’re to be deplored. But all to often the ideology I outlined above leads us to exclusively and prejudicially assign these flaws to an entire demographic.

              I invite you to consider you own post however; it was you who explicitly linked this boy’s actions with his entire college. It was you who used pictures of his fellow students, drawing attention to their whiteness, as if this was a crime. Or at the very least, as if their collective whiteness was in of itself some form of moral offense.

              And it was you who invoked the phrase “less than zero”, barely distinguishable from that infamous word ‘untermenschen’.

              What I do see happening here is the actions of an immature young person who found themselves in a confrontational situation he was unprepared to deal with. The video we have is clearly a selective segment of the total narrative that day, so we should keep in mind we lack the full context to understand it properly.

              There is a useful merit in debating the motives and reactions of all the participants in this incident; but honestly I find myself disturbed by this globalised shaming and vindictiveness all directed at one individual. Utterly out of proportion to any possible magnitude of his offense. You showed more consideration to Cam Slater this morning; and rightly so.

              • greywarshark

                How kind and accommodating you are to this young man Red Logix, who was in tune with a group of similar aged fit young men behind him.
                I note that the media sometimes call a 15 year old a man, so a well-grown 17 year old is more than just an ‘immature young person’. And further ‘who found themselves in a confrontational situation he was unprepared to deal with’. Risible.

                All he had to do in his state of confusion was politely step aside. I am sure that he has been taught at his good school, and by his comfortably-off mother, to be polite to people. Or perhaps just to people who look good to mix with and advance yourself by being in the ‘right’ circles. What use is an Indian to this smart young fellow eh!

                We naturally look at what this one individual did because it represents, is symbolic of so much more. The brains of people who can’t recognise that have apparently got rusty; try olive oil for loosening, the oil of peace.

                • RedLogix

                  We naturally look at what this one individual did because it represents, is symbolic of so much more.

                  Which is exactly my point; we’re heaping onto one individual all the symbolic and alleged sins of an entire race. In what manner is that just?

                  I just found this media item which appears to give more context:

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-21/native-american-surrounded-maga-trump-supporters-what-happened/10730988

                  From my perspective 17 yrs old is still very young. I look back on myself at that age with an inward cringe, and shudder at how little I knew.

                • One Two

                  I am in complete agreement with RL…

                  The bandwagon, genric slandering of this pile on..for what…it might have been a staged event for anyone here would know…

                  The tactics and advocates of ‘hate’ are transparent, it is hard to believe that so many still buy into it all…this site is ladened with hateful comments…daily…

                  Outrage becomes addictive…the rush of brain chemicals are powerful…

                  • greywarshark

                    What I saw prompts outrage – and I am not addicted to it however I still have hopes of living in a fair world where there is respect for people who deserve it.

                    • One Two

                      If you allow it to extract such a strong response GW, that is your choice…

                      Such responses, en mass are not going to lead to what you describe…my opinion…

                      These events and the pushing of them, are designed to extract negative emotions and ensure that divisions grow wider…

                    • McFlock

                      The “divisions” don’t grow wider, they exist as they always have. They are merely acknowledged.

                      And when they are acknowledged, they allow confrontation. This is a good thing. Racism and the full MAGA package should be confronted.

                    • greywarshark

                      Well McFlock
                      Here it has been con-fronted, sideways and back as well. I can always be surprised at the different levels of attitude that some can defend. It doesn’t make me feel hopeful for the future.

                    • McFlock

                      I’m not sure it’s what we really notice in our lifetimes.

                      But over decades and centuries, the change builds up – sometimes negative, but usually positive.

                      All we can do is try to leave the world a little bit better than we found it.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The idea that we all have the capacity to do evil is a theme I’ve returned to quite often. Of course there are white supremacists, bigots and misogynists, and of course they’re to be deplored. But all to often the ideology I outlined above leads us to exclusively and prejudicially assign these flaws to an entire demographic.

                Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth

                Second, contrary to popular sentiment, stereotypes are usually accurate. (Not always to be sure. And some false stereotypes are purposefully promoted in order to cause harm. But this fact should further compel us to study stereotype accuracy well so that we can distinguish truth from lies in this area). That stereotypes are often accurate should not be surprising to the open and critically minded reader. From an evolutionary perspective, stereotypes had to confer a predictive advantage to be elected into the repertoire, which means that they had to possess a considerable degree of accuracy, not merely a ‘kernel of truth.’

                Basically, sometimes we have to just so that we can survive.

                I invite you to consider you own post however; it was you who explicitly linked this boy’s actions with his entire college. It was you who used pictures of his fellow students, drawing attention to their whiteness, as if this was a crime. Or at the very least, as if their collective whiteness was in of itself some form of moral offense.

                Given context it’s entirely possible that it all is.

                Being white isn’t immoral but being taught that you’re better because you’re white is.
                Segregation, as it seriously looks like is happening at that school, is also immoral.

                And it was you who invoked the phrase “less than zero”, barely distinguishable from that infamous word ‘untermenschen’.

                Yep, that was really bad.

                • RedLogix

                  Here’s an example of a white guy almost certainly being a racist dickhead:

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-22/rorkes-closed-for-days-as-staff-claim-mass-underpayments-racism/10733592

                  Then again it’s Darwin so the bar is pretty low 🙂

                  The Psychology Today article you linked to is a decent overview of this problem; addressing both the biological and social drivers underlying our how we form our values and behaviours.

                  The Darwin bar owner above might well have his own reasons, based on years of experience, to ban Aboriginal’s from his bar. We may not like his stereotyping, but as you say, does this make it inaccurate? He certainly doesn’t come across as a sympathetic character, but given the notoriously damaging relationship between the Aboriginal people and alcohol, it’s not unreasonable to think he has a point.

                  Disentangling facts from fears is a difficult business. Here’s another one for you; the average IQ of the Han Chinese is 105, almost half a standard deviation higher than for Caucasians. Does this make them the superior ‘master race’? Is biology the sole driver? Or do we have the opportunity to determine what biology means to us?

                  As it turns out, thanks in large part to Mr Hitler, the West has learned the valuable lesson that ideologies centered on “race superiority” are off the reservation. We simply don’t tolerate them in civilised discourse.

                  But how do we determine the boundary between ‘race superiority’ and ‘race identity’? How do we know the difference between legitimate assertions of natural human diversity, and an ideology that at the extremes can be used to justify mass murder? It’s an interesting question that does have some rather intriguing answers deep within our psychology.

    • How was the boy racist?
      He is not required to move for nobody, so did nothing wrong.

      The world didn’t spring forth fully-formed from the mind of God just last week, DJ Ward. Try acquainting yourself with some history before making pronouncements on why this video of White Americans jeering at a Native American carries so much force.

      • Gosman 2.2.1

        Are you claiming that Native American are some sort of protected group that can’t be ‘jeered’ at (not that this boy looks to be jeering at hime anyway)?

        • Psycho Milt 2.2.1.1

          Where does “can’t” come into it? Quite clearly, they can. I’m just pointing out that a video of a crowd of privileged white youths taunting a dark-skinned man (or even just blocking his path and standing smirking in his face) has a very powerful message in the USA, and there are very good historical reasons why that’s the case. You can not like it all you want, but that doesn’t alter the situation.

          • Gosman 2.2.1.1.1

            I think it is great that both the kids and the old man can protest peacefully. Noone was being denied their rights. Noone was being treated worse or better based on their background (historical or ethnic). This is as the World should be.

            • Psycho Milt 2.2.1.1.1.1

              That is the world as people who believe history started when they reached adulthood feel it should be. For people who are aware the world has existed longer than they have, a video like this carries a message.

              • Gosman

                What does that even mean? I am well aware of history thank you. I am well aware of the incredibly complexities in human interactions that mean NO peoples are completely victims or villains. No group in society can state they do not have some unpleasant period of their history where their ancestors behaved in a a manner we would regard as abhorrent today.

                • It means that, to pretend that a video of privileged white kids taunting a dark-skinned man shows nothing disturbing, you have to also pretend that America’s history of racist violence and oppression doesn’t exist.

                  However, I see that you’re instead going with the claim that there’s nothing disturbing about it because nobody’s perfect and all ethnic groups have a few skeletons in the closet. Would you make that claim about a video of right-wing German youth taunting an elderly Jewish man? “History, schmistory! Nothing to see here, just some kids having a good time…”

                  • Gosman

                    Turning it around, to pretend a Native American actively taunting the White children with his drums shows nothing disturbing means you also have to pretend the many hundreds of massacres of white children by Native Americans in the past didn’t happen.

                    • There is no turning it around – the losers of a war don’t get to taunt the winners. And your implicit assumption that the genocide of indigenous Americans was some kind of conflict between equals in which neither side comes out smelling of roses tells me that you really do need to pay a bit more attention to history.

                  • Gosman

                    Are you seriously equating the US interaction with various Native American people’s over the past 200 odd years with the NAZI Holocaust during WWII?

            • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.1.1.2

              Boy smirks at elderly man.
              “This is as the World should be.”
              I’d like to think the world could be a lot friendlier than that.

              • Gosman

                Or alternatively “Old man bangs drum in face of school student”.

                Would you prefer it friendly than that?

                • Robert Guyton

                  The drumming was, as I understand it, not intended to be provocative to the boy. The smirking and intransigence, otoh, was intended to be unfriendly. A friendlier approach all round would have been preferable.

                  • Gosman

                    How can it not be seen as provocative as he deliberately entered the space where these school kids were gathering and did nothing but bang his drum loudly and in his face?

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The elder described it as an action designed to placate and calm – don’t you believe him?
                      In that case, it can only be misinterpreted as provocative. The boys actions, however, are not so easily misinterpreted.

                    • McFlock

                      Three groups: Fundy MAGA kids, Black Israelites (not really heard of them before, the ones there sound like jerks), and the Native Americans.

                      Phillips was putting himself between the two groups of jerks. Maybe his drumming wasn’t understood, but at least he was trying. Reminds me a bit of the sage-burner at Woodstock99, but with more guts and smarts. He maybe stopped those kids getting thumped. And that’s when regarding the kid’s own account as largely accurate (meh).

                      I have a real issue with the trip supervisors who didn’t suggest that maybe a MAGA hat was not overly tactful, but did let a group of teenage boys work themselves up. But then they’re fundy fuckwits anyway, so why would I expect them to show common sense in supervising teenage boys?

                    • Gosman

                      Phillips didn’t put himself in the African Hebrew Israelites faces and bang his drums at them despite them throwing out racial slurs and insults. But what gets me the most about your comments is that if it was a White person acting in a way that other cultures found culturally offensive (like perhaps going over to a Maori family at a picnic table and sitting on their table) I suspect you would think that was grossly culturally offensive because the White person didn’t take in to account the other people’s feelings. A Native American does it and now we have to see it from his perspective.

                    • McFlock

                      If the kids were just having a picnic, you’d have a point. But they weren’t.

                      You walk around wearing a MAGA hat, you’re making a statement just as offensive to some people as what the other dropkicks were saying. And yeah, he was facing the kids because the other group respected his space. Oh – and he’s an old man. Fucksake.

                      If you need to break up crowds, you separate them both. Otherwise it looks like you’re favouring one over the other and shit turns bad. The maga kid wasn’t separating. Not really his fault, his fucking trip supervisors should have put a lid on them.

                      Seriously, you blaming the old guy for stopping a fight is pretty damned stupid.

                    • Gosman

                      Wearing a MAGA hat is NOWHERE near as offensive as calling ALL White people the Devil or equivalent. Did you not watch the video detailing the African Hebrew Israelites views?

                    • McFlock

                      A MAGA cap is just a 21st century white hood.

                    • arkie

                      President Trump’s oft-repeated slogan “America First” was also a credo of the white supremacist Ku Klux Klan organization.

                      In addition to figuring prominently in his speeches, “America first” has turned up regularly in Trump’s tweets, often paired with his other favorite rallying cry, “Make America great again”

                      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/america-first-ku-klux-klan-slogan/

                      So now you know that even the words Trump uses have history!

              • Dennis Frank

                Yeah, but the kid was being confronted. His smile seems to reflect that, eh? A tad nervous, but resolute. Calm, and somewhat amused by the selection of himself as the person to be confronted.

                That’s just my attempt to decode the emotional intelligence exhibited in the situation. “Black Israelites, also known as African Hebrew Israelites, believe they are descendants of the ancient tribes of Israel and mainly follow the teachings of the Hebrew Bible.” Their uncouth behaviour in this media report suggests they lack it: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-21/native-american-surrounded-maga-trump-supporters-what-happened/10730988

                Seems clear enough to me that this third group in the situation were the escalators of confrontation. No wonder the kid was taken aback.

                • RedLogix

                  Thank you. That helps a lot.

                  Too many people leaping to conclusions based on evidence selectively tailored to confirm their presuppositions. Everyone is prone to doing this; but these days the left has made an art form of it.

                  There are no perfect people; we’re all a confounding mix of flaws, shortcomings and ignorance. We’re all lazy, petty, vindictive and sometimes cruel … yet astonishingly enough we all have a spark within us that denotes greatness. Our purpose here is to help each other fan that spark into a great light.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    De-escalation’s usually a better approach than resolution to hold one’s ground. Not always, mind, but often, especially when the issue is trivial.

                    • veutoviper

                      See my comment at 11.16am below. After reading your comment, I bolded a quote from Nathan Phillips as it seemed to be an attempt to do exactly that.

                  • veutoviper

                    Well said.

                    I did not see your reply until I had submitted my comment below recommending that people read the ABC News article you posted above – for exactly the reasons you have set out in your reply to Dennis.

                    I will leave my reply as hopefully it will encourage people to read the article you posted – and watch the videos.

                    Thanks for providing the link.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Yes, and I appreciate that you’re providing a reasonable alternative. My sporadic critiques of leftist thought are intended to identify flawed assumptions and syndromes that handicap progressive politicos, so we seem to have that in common. Kia kaha! 😊

                • veutoviper

                  RedLogix has just put up * a link to the following Australian abc news article which puts the photo of Nick Sandmann facing Nathan Phillips into much better perspective:

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-21/native-american-surrounded-maga-trump-supporters-what-happened/10730988

                  IMO the article – and the two videos – are a MUST READ/VIEW.

                  For example (but you need to read the whole article and watch the videos):

                  Mr Phillips later told Detroit Free Press the students were “in the process of attacking these four black individuals”.

                  He said things kept escalating and he saw one member of the Black Israelites spitting at the students.

                  “So I put myself in between that, between a rock and hard place,” Mr Phillips told the media. (My bold)

                  Mr Phillips later said he heard the students saying “build that wall, build that wall”.

                  But Nick Sandmann said he never heard any student chant anything other than the school chants.

                  “I did not witness or hear any students chant ‘build that wall’ or anything hateful or racist at any time. Assertions to the contrary are simply false,” he said.

                  After Mr Phillips finished and left, the teens and Black Israelites continued to antagonise each other until buses arrived for the students and they cheered and rushed off.

                  “Go home, understand America will burn,” the Black Israelite speaker yelled after them.

                  After videos spread online, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Covington and Covington Catholic High School issued a joint statement apologising to Mr Phillips and said they would take “appropriate action, up to and including expulsion” against the students involved.

                  “We extend our deepest apologies to Mr Phillips,” the statement said. …

                  * Redlogix’s comment is unnumbered above two below his earlier one at 2.1.1.1.1.3 above, posted at 10.31am.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Well done. It’s a truism that women are better at emotional intelligence than men! However stereotypes seem to be a magnet for both, eh? Those of us who see the nuances as more significant then get sucked into the subsequent vortex…

                    • veutoviper

                      LOL. Good on RedLogix at finding that article. In terms of nuances, I must say as someone with a part Jewish background (and the privilege of having been brought up with opportunity to learn and experience that side of my religious/cultural history as well as the predominant Christian side), I cringe and have major concerns at the little I have found out about this Black Israelite movement … Not because of the colour, race etc issue but the beliefs. But I know very little yet, so must not jump to conclusions.

                    • veutoviper

                      I have to apologise to you. Or rather I want to – for overlooking that you also posted the ABC news article in your comment that I responded to but only attributed the article to RedLogix. My apologies.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Oh, no need, but thanks. By then I’d forgotten where I got it from, otherwise I would have credited it or responded there. Frequent gardening breaks are my lifestyle currently, so it’s easy to lose place.. 😊

                  • joe90

                    I cringe and have major concerns at the little I have found out about this Black Israelite movement

                    Viceland’s Hate Thy Neighbour on the Black Israelites.

                    https://www.vice.com/sv/article/dpwyqz/white-people-black-jesus-will-enslave-you

                    • veutoviper

                      Having watched a few seconds I am not sure whether to say ‘thank you’ or ‘no thanks’! LOL

                      Will watch in full later today …

    • arkie 2.3

      Yeah this school has a racism problem.

    • Dennis Frank 2.4

      Your account of what happened seems fair to me, and it suggests the bipolar view TRP advocates is too simplistic to match reality. I’m not sufficiently interested to check out any recordings of the incident, but if anyone does and corroborates your view, it will provide a lesson of how not to over-simplify a complex situation.

      Even if not, the desire for theatrical confrontation during protests seems evident on all three sides. Bipolar thinking, and demonising any particular one, seems counter-productive. It’s like traditional police accounts in which all eyewitnesses disagree about what happened at the scene. Everyone has a subjective take. Human nature.

    • Tricledrown 2.5

      D J Ward Videos taken from other angles by other people show a different story. Wearing redhats with maga on them.

      • DJ Ward 2.5.1

        So you think that Making America Great Again hats are racist? Kanye is racist? The millions of non whites that support Trump and wear MAGA hats are racist?
        Bit deluded as to what racism is.

        The American Indians were racist in this event. Listen to the video.

        Mr Phillips lied about pretty much everything.
        Stopped from going up the steps. Bullshit.
        Angry mob. Bullshit.
        Singled out by the boy. Bullshit.
        Cliams he heard build the wall. Bullshit.

        Run by hate Trump CNN. Fake News bullshit.
        The boys were responding to homophobia, and continuous racism by another group.

  3. Mark 3

    Flinging the ‘racist’ epithet around is starting to get a bit counterproductive, and sooner or later the term is going to lose its potency. That would be a rather unfortunate, because there is real racism out there, and there is real white supremacy – so call out racist behaviour when it really is racist behaviour. But making assumptions of the thought processes of this young man, and hoisting him up in front of the world to vilify him is rather unfair. And even if he does have his own prejudices, and we all do and have to work hard to improve, he is only 17. There’s a heck of a lot of racism also from the virtue signalling liberal left crowd, including this website – if you aren’t part of a group with a perpetual victim halo round your head, then you are on the back foot immediately and have to work hard to demonstrate your merit or virtue – that which is automatically assumed for designated groups. Its a silly little game, and all a bit immature.

  4. joe90 4

    Malignant masculinity.

    https://newrepublic.com/minutes/151423/christine-blasey-ford-indelible-hippocampus-laughter

    • Gosman 4.1

      Why does it matter whether they are laughing or not? It isn’t illegal to laugh nor is it illegal to laugh at a confrontation that seems on the face of it to be comical.

      • solkta 4.1.1

        Yes, if there is no specific law banning it then it must be moral and righteous.

        • Gosman 4.1.1.1

          Whose morals? Yours?

          • solkta 4.1.1.1.1

            It doesn’t matter. If it is legal then there is no moral consideration.

            • Gosman 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Is there any moral consideration necessary in this interaction in your opinion?

              • solkta

                Exactly, if there is no specific law being broken then it must be moral and righteous.

                • Gosman

                  Apologies, I altered my post to better reflect my clarification of your point. Do you feel you have answered it in your last comment?

                  • solkta

                    There is no need to even consider morality as no specific laws were broken.

                    • McFlock

                      In fact, to do so would set a disturbing precedent – we might begin to think that some of our wealthiest people are not folk to emulate. But how can a rich person be a bad person? The world would turn upside down!

    • Robert Guyton 4.2

      The “Hoarse Whisperer” is a funny handle 🙂
      Is it better than, “Hugh Manatee”?
      Just askin’

  5. greywarshark 5

    Why do people respond to Gosman, he is the voice of the determined status quo who enjoy the status they feel comfortable with, especially if it involves denying someone else a place on their wee planet. He cares nothing about trying to make changes to help others worse off, or to help meet future problems, he just takes up time and space.

    How futile to bother with him? Why instead can’t people find something in the news they themselves want to raise and discuss rather than the stupid tit-for-tat. What good is it? Just time-wasting for all involved. But we don’t have time to repair present wrongs much less prepare for future happenings so use it wisely surely is the need, Gosman and all the RW dilettantes who come here, rata the latest, are not worth anything but a cursory comment (without a curse because they can then turn that into a major flamewar!)

  6. That_guy 6

    “Nicholas Sandmann is less than zero”

    Come on. Seriously. He’s a 17-year old product of his environment. What chance has he had to think? What exposure has he had to alternative points of view? What’s the point of this kind of extreme statement?

    I just feel sorry for him and his clone army.

  7. One Two 7

    The moral outrage trap…is a trap best avoided…

  8. Mark 8

    That people now for a wrong comment or a wrong look or even a wrong rant at the end of a hard day are hauled out in the age of the internet for international humiliation, to perhaps forever blight their lives, is quite appalling. After all, those that point the finger at people who have been caught have no doubt made comments or had thoughts that they would not want others to hear or know of (in the same way we all say things about family members or friends), and all have certain prejudices. So its hypocrisy of the highest order, and pathetically childish. At school kids would point out the misbehaving kid to the teacher partly out of spite and also to enhance one’s virtue in the eyes of the teacher.

    In a way there is far more freedom of expression in China, and I’m being completely serious, on a everyday personal level.

    • RedLogix 8.1

      I can see your point; in many ways the mass opprobrium of the mob can be as equally repugnant as the ubiquitous surveillance of the state.

  9. joe90 9

    Well oiled MAGA machine swings into action.

    https://twitter.com/VicBergerIV/status/1087427141669666816

    Sandmann’s statement was emailed to Heavy from Louisville, Kentucky, public relations firm RunSwitch. The GOP-aligned firm was founded by advisor to Sen. Mitch McConnel’s Super PAC, Kentuckians for Strong Leadership and longtime GOP operative Scott Jennings.

    https://heavy.com/news/2019/01/nicholas-sandmann-covington-catholic/

  10. joe90 10

    Gobby little shits.

    • DJ Ward 10.1

      That was pointless.

      It doesn’t show what the girls said to the boys as they walked past. I’m guessing the girls were being misandrist towards them or even Toxic Femininity. If they were nice to them I doubt they would have got that response.

      They indicate they had a conversation prior, so what was said?
      I can’t imagine a response like that unless they were being bitches towards them in some way.

      Selective editing to make the girls look like victims.

      More Fake News Joe90.

      • McFlock 10.1.1

        I can’t imagine a response like that unless they were being bitches towards them in some way.

        fuck you’ve led a sheltered life. It’s like you’ve spent so long with your head up your arse that you redecorated it, and all you could think of was beige paint and cream furniture arranged in the minimalist fashion.

        • DJ Ward 10.1.1.1

          I’m not so sure about the sheltered life comment.

          I’m just a person that’s seen far too many evil women in action. So it’s easy to see how female responses are just that, responses. Watch the video and listen. We are missing the part that counts.

          Do you think one of those females would post a video that shows them in a bad light? So we get a selective veiw of the event.

          • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1

            Can you really not imagine a group of young, bored men harrassing women as the walk past, so maybe the women start recording to catch the end of it?

            Is that seriously beyond your imagination or even real-world observation?

            • mauī 10.1.1.1.1.1

              I think it’s more likely that for a group to be yelling out “Make America Great Again” at the top of their lungs to strangers walking past that they were incited somewhat.

            • DJ Ward 10.1.1.1.1.2

              It is very likely what you described is what happened but we don’t know that do we. We didn’t get to see how things got to the point the boys responded as they did. Would the girls post anything that makes them look bad?

              Boys: Politely “hello ladies”.
              Girls: “fuck off, your not good enough for us”.

              Yep, Toxic Femininity.

              Isn’t the lesson of this post this.
              8 second clips are not truthfull. They give no context to the event, or why the 8 second clip occurred. We should not jump to conclusions.

              That’s why you correctly ask for more information in arguments.

              • McFlock

                Oh, so now you’ve gone from something being unimaginable to how sad it is that we will never truly know what happened.

                So at best this was a poorly supervised group of boys who do not know how to deal with public confrontation in their mid-teens. At worst, their privilege goes so far that they know they can behave however they like and still face no repercussions. Hell, apparently they now get to see the president – I hope that’s a sick joke, but this entire regime is a sick joke.

          • solkta 10.1.1.1.2

            Yes, women evil, men good, must be women who started it.

    • joe90 10.2

      Charmers.

  11. Siobhan 11

    Yep, I’m really looking forward to Trump going and we can go back to pretending America isn’t a country of racist, classist, exploiters and all manner of religious nutters.
    We can go back to the good old days (Up till 2 years ago) when our experts looked to America as a model for Education, Health, Trade, Employment, town planning and how to ‘Do Things Right’ and we can all pretend racism was just something that happened down South, a bit before Lincoln came along and fought a war to free the slaves (sic) and again a bit in the 50’s and 60’s when the Time /Life photographers were at their best..

    …actually, what I’m really looking forward to is Trump being vaporized so we can start having some intelligent conversations around something other than Trump every god damn day on every media you look at. The guy is a disaster, but he’s been a most excellent distraction to stop us all critiquing our neo liberal overlords or working on actual solutions to our social and economic woes.

    Even here..we’re all talking about some kid all because of ‘the hat’, because without that visual the media would never have pushed this clip…after all, this is the 45th Annual March for Life, a major anti-abortion rally, its always been full of smug racist little sh*ts, no doubt this school has sent a group each and every year, and yet never had any real coverage, certainly not over here..but now….Trump…..so now its a problem…

  12. DJ Ward 12

    The point of the endless anti Trump propaganda is what?
    It’s so you don’t hear or perceive the Truth.
    So you only hear bad things.
    So what you describe as wanting, MAGA is not shown as happening.

    The hardest working President.
    The most successful President.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/trumps-list-289-accomplishments-in-just-20-months-relentless-promise-keeping

  13. mauī 13

    Surprise, surprise it turns out it was all a liberal media pile on to get Trump. Seems the boy was the real peacemaker and the older guy who should have known better, the antagonizer. But hey who cares it’s only a little lie and he’s only 17, there is plenty of time for him to stop receiving hate mail.

    • joe90 13.1

      The MAGA machine’s done a great job.

      The GOP and it’s alt-right wing were quick smart at pushing the counter-narrative, their toadying media outlets and twitter army were out in force and the mother’s outright display of racism was brought under control.

      The usual media suspects bothsiderism worked a treat and their top flight crisis management outfit was on it’s toes, too, splicing and editing multiple videos to produce a long, sympathetic version and writing a slick AF statement to cast the boy as victim.

      Worked a treat, eh. You’ve bought it.

      /

      • DJ Ward 13.1.1

        The Dems and there Fake News bullshiters were quick to lie to the American people. Apparently the retractions on Trump due to lies total 49 pages. At about 20 a page that’s 1,000 Fake News articles so far. Joe 90 still believes 100% of them are true. We will have a new one tommorow.

        Your comment proves you don’t have a clue what happened in this event.
        The MAGA machine didn’t have to do anything. The videos put on line by the public show everything. Including the American Indian group making racist comments, as well as the actual racists and anti gay activists whose behavour was abhorrent and completely ignored by the Fake News media. Unless of course you hate white people then it was OK.

        He was wearing a MAGA hat.
        He deserves to be destroyed.
        He must be racist then.

        So Joe90 since you clearly support lying and you are defending the actual racists, and homophobes, by turning a blind eye to it, saying it was edited, what does that make people like you?

        • joe90 13.1.1.1

          Apparently the retractions on Trump due to lies total 49 pages.

          Really?

          Best you put up or shut up, chump.

          • DJ Ward 13.1.1.1.1

            Here is a small list of CNN generated lies. Not anywhere near all of them obviously. When everyone else then reports on the CNN story then you generate many more fake news articles in the other networks. As seen when Buzzfeed lied recently, they are simply taking turns.

            https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/31/cnn-list-bungled-reporting-fake-news/

            Interesting one is the Comey lie. Trump wasn’t being investigated. Who knew that?

            • joe90 13.1.1.1.1.1

              A handful relate to the Marmalade Moron but you’re still shy by 48 and a bit pages.

              Put up or STFU, chump.

  14. peterlepaysan 14

    A private catholic college allows its students to be transported to a political rally against abortion?

    A private catholic college allows its students to be transported to a political rally some 1000km away?

    A private catholic college allows it students to wear MAGA caps at an anti abortion rally?

    Where is the moral compass?

    Where is the Pope?

    OH! I forgot, this happened in the USA. The land of the free (once upon a time).

    The USA is in deep shit, so are we, given the tenor of posts from various trolls

    • joe90 14.1

      Attending pro-life rallies and the like is a requirement for the catholic sacrament of confirmation.

    • DJ Ward 14.2

      Is wearing a MAGA hat a crime.
      Is anybody going to a protest a crime.
      Is having an opinion a crime.

      It seems that in your mind that freedom is something your against.

      I’m myself are pro abortion but you say they are not moral because they are anti abortion. I struggle with saying anti abortionists are not moral as firstly morals are in the mind of the person. Technically on the grounds of killing things they are more moral than me while I am more moral in regards to females having choice over what happens to there bodies. Both sides are immoral, and moral.

      Once apron a time? On a post about racism in the US. I’ve even had people being ignorant today about my knowledge of history, but you definately won today’s most ignorant comment. It’s the least racist it’s ever been in the US unless your white.

      • McFlock 14.2.1

        Ah, another “if it’s legal then it must be moral” fool.

        • DJ Ward 14.2.1.1

          That’s not what I said. Try reading, it helps.

          • McFlock 14.2.1.1.1

            No, you read “A private catholic college allows it students to wear MAGA caps at an anti abortion rally?” and responded “Is wearing a MAGA hat a crime.”

            What has whether it’s a crime got to do with school policy on how students behave on school trips?

            Please, demonstrate for everyone the connection between your response and pp’s comment.

            • DJ Ward 14.2.1.1.1.1

              They are in Mufti. They have freedom of expression. They are not required to believe the political beliefs of McFlock or PP. The US is not China.

              My comment on being a crime or wrong (the hat) was seperate from my criticism of the PP morality comment.

              • McFlock

                The school announced that they would investigate and punish the boys if required, so obviously the school has some influence over that “freedom of expression”.

                Whether it is a crime or not is irrelevant to the morality issue.

                • greywarshark

                  Thanks McFlock for keeping the thread of civility and morality going and showing despite uncaring BS and obfuscation.

  15. There is no racial bigotry in my beloved Marine Corps….

    full metal jacket intro monologue – YouTube

  16. Shadrach 16

    So, having taken a deep breath, we now know the following:

    1. Nathan Phillips was not a Vietnam war vet. That was fake news, happily swallowed hook line and sinker by left wing supporters everywhere, including the US politician who identifies as American Indian because of her high cheek bones.
    2. The Covington group were the recipients of racist insults, followed by Phillips and his group approaching the Covington group with their drums and chanting. Again, the left have swallowed the initial msm fake news.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thisisinsider.com/nathan-phillips-and-maga-hat-teens-extended-footage-shines-new-light-2019-1

    Credit to the Washington Times and CNN who are now calling out the bs.

    • RedLogix 16.1

      *Crickets*

      • McFlock 16.1.1

        Because it changes nothing.

        • RedLogix 16.1.1.1

          Because of your compelling argument; or because you’re never wrong?

          • McFlock 16.1.1.1.1

            Because his military service was never the point, because the behaviour of the kids in the video doesn’t change, and because the insults thrown by the BI and the responses from the kids is exactly why Phillips said he was there in the first place.

            Thanks for your faith in my accuracy, but I have been wrong once or twice.

            • RedLogix 16.1.1.1.1.1

              but I have been wrong once or twice.

              Good so are you willing to accept that in all the unscripted drama of the moment, the participants may have just misunderstood each other’s motives?

              Certainly the BI group seem to have been overtly pouring petrol onto the fire.

              Because his military service was never the point,

              Then why mention it? For the simple reason that in the USA it lends a specific credibility and sympathy. In this case misplaced as it turns out.

              • McFlock

                Oh, I think the kids were all being pretty clear.

                • RedLogix

                  That’s not the account Sandmann has given; I realise you want to dismiss his account as self-serving bs, but it’s consistent with how people react in a crowd that’s barely under control.

                  People do weird things in these circumstances, their body language is not normal, they smile when they’re nervous or uncertain, their voices become tense, and especially they’re not able to engage their rational, contemplative faculties to apply a reasoned, woke sensibility to their responses.

                  On the other hand I realise that if you’re determined to interpret the first selective video to confirm your presuppositions, there is nothing I can say to change that. That’s a very human predilection too.

                  • McFlock

                    Maybe he has defensive smirkface. That’s an unfortunate trait to have, but possible. The odds of it are much lower than him being like his arsehole classmates.

                    Is he the only nervous and uncertain person in his peer group? The only one who didn’t move when Phillips was changing the situation? A young man that intimidated by a guy with a drum, while all his mates were taking the piss as only groups of unsupervised young men can? Maybe. The odds are pretty low, though.

                    The odds are far higher that his defenders are trying to persuade everyone else to discount literally what is in front of their eyes. A smirking, priviliged jerk who is part of a jeering, overexcited, poorly-supervised peer group.

                    • RedLogix

                      That’s an unfortunate trait to have,

                      In my experience it may be unfortunate, but it’s very common. The way we behave in crowds; especially highly emotive ones, is not normal:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology

                      This kind of mob drama is certainly not something I’d expect a young man who seems to have had a relatively sheltered upbringing, narrow if you insist, on being able to handle with aplomb.

                    • McFlock

                      Crowd behaviour is not normal individual behaviour, but it usually does what it says on the box. That’s where we differ. You look at that video and tell me to believe that he is scared.

                      I’ve only ever seen that smirk in the exact opposite situation: when whichever entitled young man in question thinks there is nothing that can or will be done to him, that he has made a consequence-free transgression.

                    • McFlock

                      Nah. I was the guy who got asked by smirkface “what are you going to do about it”, point to your man and say “Me? Nothing. I’ll just tell him”. lol

                  • McFlock

                    I’ve seen that smirk a lot over the years, by the way. It always disappeared when he realised he was leaving the bar/function, or going to face even worse repercussions for his actions.

                    Can’t say I’ve never seen it as a nervous grin. That one’s much tighter, the eyes are desperate.

                    • RedLogix

                      We should put you in charge of programming the CCCP’s face recognition street camera’s and you can have a whale of a time convicting ‘thought crimes’ to your heart’s content.

                    • McFlock

                      The ability to read emotion based on another person’s facial expressions and indicators of stress level is a trait common amongst people. If you showed that smirk to a hundred people who have never seen the pic before, what do you think the common interpretation would be?

                    • RedLogix

                      Probably the wrong one. Most people project from their experience of ‘normal’ situations. I agree if someone walked into my office behaving like that I’d immediately wonder what the hell they were up to.

                      But how often have you been in the middle of a near riot?

                      Here’s an interesting story from this event:

                      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/photo/queen-street-riots-1984

                      My partner was actually present; she and her date at the time emerged from a picture theatre to find themselves in the middle of this mayhem. What she says was interesting; that immediately she felt caught up in the madness, a primal urge to rush along with the crowd, yelling, screaming, smashing shop windows. Without any sense of why, or justification.

                      Then suddenly she had this moment of shocking clarity … that one of the shop windows she wanted to smash … was her own.

                      You can argue that this kind of drama strips away the civility and exposes the ugliness underneath, and there is some merit in that argument. But then again, would you be willing to have every unguarded moment of your life posted to the internet along with vindictive commentary imposing the worst possible interpretation on it?

                      I wouldn’t.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s called the milling effect. You can see the same thing if pedestrians are waiting at traffic lights to cross – one person jaywalks, a few others decide to follow.

                      I’m from dunedin and worked as a pub bouncer. I’ve seen one or two crowd-control situations.

                    • RedLogix

                      Ah we aren’t talking about some people crossing the street when they shouldn’t. But nice try at the minimising.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, bollocks.

                      OK then, it’s the same as when someone throws a bucket of shit at a worked-up toga parade and everything clocks off. Happy now? Exactly the same psychological switch. Seeing one person do it validates a few more, and then the entire crowd is not just free to do it, they need to come up with reasons not to.

                      The reverse effect is the experiment where they stage an exam and tell people to not leave. the examiner departs, and then smoke comes under the door. Then alarms go off. All the stooge exam “participants” act normal, the actual test subject will usually sit there until the smoke is incredibly dense. The crowd pressure is to do nothing.

                      Or if a gig has technical difficulties for too long the bored crowd starts building waves that can seriously injure people, unless someone steps up as a distraction (hip-hop acts are usually damned good at having a hype-man there to keep the crowd up but happy. Corporate rock acts can be hit and miss when it comes to paying attention to the crowd during downtime).

                      It’s all the same shit, and it’s got a shedload of foreshadowing. It’s one reason I think the “supervisors” of the trip should be in deep shit. They failed to control their group.

                    • RedLogix

                      They failed to control their group.

                      Fair enough. Now exactly who was supervising the BHI group, whom you seem quite happy to let totally off the hook?

                      Because we have video evidence of what they were saying too. Or does that not matter because … black?

                    • McFlock

                      No. It’s because nobody is pretending that the BI are nice people, just poorly misunderstood and misrepresented by people who saw a video that showed exactly what they did.

                      Has Trump invited the black Israelites to the White House?

                    • RedLogix

                      In other words you totally let them off the hook because ‘they’re not nice people’.

                      Clearly they were the provocateurs in this protest; they were the ones who pushed buttons, and they are the ones who must be very pleased at how the global left has vindicated and rewarded their actions a million-fold.

                    • McFlock

                      Who’s letting them off any hook? Calling them dickheads is like saying John Gotti was a bad man. You’re not going to get column inches out of it.

                      You put forward your position on them, I broadly agree, end of thread. It’s not going to be much of a debate. We could discuss whether they were happy with their coverage, or actually a bit disappointed because Phillips came along and the moment involved the magasprog not them. Being confrontational and abusive seems to be their schtick to boost their profile. Maybe they would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for that meddlesome old man.

            • Gosman 16.1.1.1.1.2

              Phillips was there because he thought the White kids were intimidating the BHI group. He was wrong. It was in fact the BHI group that he should have intervened with to get them to stop abusing EVERYBODY not just the kids from the school. Phillips keeps changing his story.

            • Shadrach 16.1.1.1.1.3

              I’m looking for evidence that Phillips acted to correct the record. That might give some credibility to his claims. Perhaps he’s their version of Golriz?

              • McFlock

                I’m looking for evidence that you really care about evidence.

                • shadrach

                  If you provide some, you’ll find out.

                  • McFlock

                    past experience suggests the answer would be negative in the extreme.

                    • shadrach

                      Past experience suggests you aren’t commonly acquainted with evidence.

                    • McFlock

                      You’re the one ignoring a video in order to discover whether one of the participants corrected a misleading and incorrect transcription of a single line in a different video when the line was completely irrelevant to the incident in the video itself.

                    • shadrach

                      I’m not ignoring anything. I’m pointing out how gullible people are to fake news. And you were first out of the block (https://thestandard.org.nz/enter-sandmann/#comment-1574113).

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      Firstly, both Phillips militatry record from 40 years ago and even the BHI abuse are irrelevant to how the kids behaved (and were permitted by their supervisors to behave) towards Phillips.

                      Secondly, your contribution to this discussion has consisted of “Go the ‘Nix!”, coming late to the party to talk about the BHI behaviour, and asking whether Phillips himself corrected things said about him by other people. All of those are irrelevant to the contents of the video.

                      Have you actually talked about the contents of the video in this discussion? I don’t see it anywhere on this comment thread. So yeah, you have not addressed the actual video evidence or even the contents of the post. You have ignored everything except Phillips’ military record from 40 years ago and the BHI. Oh, and the ‘Nix.

                      fucksake…

                    • crashcart

                      It is getting beyond ridiculous, McFlock, as to how far you will go to not even admit you may have miss read the initial video.

                      To claim that others actions are irrelevant to how the students behaved is beyond obtuse. These idiots weren’t violent, they were ass-holes. A crime I know I am often guilty of and I am sure you have dabbled in. The video that has been used to shame an individual across the world is based upon his reaction to a very specific action taken by Mr Philips and to then say it has no impact is just crazy.

                      Earlier you said no one has let the BI members off the hook. Yet I don’t see any of them being named and shamed across the globe. Hell none of you even knew they existed when you condemned a 17 year old. I din’t see TRP calling them less than Zero.

                      This was an incident where every body acted a shit. You, GW, and TRP just seem to want to add to those around the world who were so keen to condemn Sandmann because he wore a MAGA hat and has the kind of face you all hated in high school. Not big enough to admit that maybe you over egged it.

                    • McFlock

                      The BHI don’t have people pretending that the video of them doing what they are doing or saying what they are saying is anything other than them doing what they were doing and saying what they were saying. Maybe someone was mean to them earlier in the video. Maybe some of them are veterans. That changes nothing, because their behaviour is in the video.

                      Oh, but with privileged white boys, suddenly a smirk becomes a stress reaction, and an old guy peacefully and calmly banging a drum is more intimidating than a crowd of jeering fuckwits.

                      As far as I know, nobody named and shamed him until he and the PR firm acting on his behalf named and shamed himself. The only mentions I saw named the school, but not him, until his excuse letter came out.

                    • Shadrach

                      “Have you actually talked about the contents of the video in this discussion?”
                      In the sense that you and many others were conned into believing fake news, yes. That has been my point all along. The initial narrative was fake. That’s why media such as CNN are backtracking. You just showing your ignorance by standing by your own rush of blood. Oh, and what Crascart said.

                    • McFlock

                      “Have you actually talked about the contents of the video in this discussion?”
                      In the sense that you and many others were conned into believing fake news, yes.

                      So in the sense of “actually talked about the contents of the video”, that would be “no”. You’ve completely ignored it.

                    • shadrach

                      “You’ve completely ignored it.”
                      Oh you fully understand that my point was about the RESPONSE to the video. As Crashcart said, you misread the video and over-egged it, and now you’re trying to find an excuse for being taken in. Even CNN is better than you.

                    • McFlock

                      Yes, that’s the point. You actually ignored the contents of the video in favour of wanting to know whether a participant corrected what was said about what he did 40 years ago.

                      And now your saying you agree that my interpretation of a video you have ignored was “overegged”. Because a 40 year old irrelevancy means a shit-eating smirk is something other than a shit-eating smirk, I guess.

                      Wank on about BHI and Vietnam times all you want – it still doesn’t mean that what is in that video isn’t really there.

              • RedLogix

                Perhaps he’s their version of Golriz?

                You rather spoiled the effect right there.

                • shadrach

                  Assuming Phillips didn’t attempt to refute the false claims about him, I couldn’t resist the similarity.

      • Psycho Milt 16.1.2

        Well, if anyone were expecting that we’d all clap our foreheads and say “My God, if it turns out the old fella wasn’t a Vietnam veteran and some Black Israelites were rude to the kids, maybe that video doesn’t show a crowd of privileged white kids mocking an elderly native American after all?”, that ain’t going to happen for obvious reasons.

        The number of irrelevant facts Shadrach could throw onto the thread is very large, let’s not encourage him.

        • RedLogix 16.1.2.1

          I think that’s called selectively erasing the context in order to justify your preconceptions. You’re welcome to argue the merits of Sandmann’s actions, but if you’re going to obtusely ignore what was going on around him, then I won’t be impressed by your argument.

          After all I’m not the one exploiting the poorly articulated responses of a young man, in a stressful, provocative moment, to score points for an anti-white, anti-male agenda.

          • greywarshark 16.1.2.1.1

            ‘Anti male’ agenda? How did that get into this long discussion as to whether a ‘little 17 year old boy’ too immature to understand what he was doing, didn’t have the manners and civility to step aside for an older man, and let him and his group mount the steps as they wanted to. They had a point to make and came with a drum and not guns; all pretty peaceful really.

            There was room for all, and for narrowly educated little white boys it would have been as fascinating as watching a movie. Just more real and meaningful than zombies.

            I think I saw a woman in the Indian group, but not very obvious. So don’t get het up RedLogix adding women-oriented issues into something that is entirely separate.

            • Gosman 16.1.2.1.1.1

              Thjere point was to seemingly try to stop the kids from intimidating the BHI. This was misguided and his actions were provocative not conciliatory.

              • greywarshark

                I’m worried about you Gosman. There is an almost frenetic desire to dominate every post on this blog and I am afraid you will wear yourself out or blow a foo-foo valve.

            • RedLogix 16.1.2.1.1.2

              The first sentence of the OP is: The privileged white kid who smugly insulted native American singer Nathan Phillips .

              Then: Sandmann attends a catholic school for the sons of rich White Kentuckians. How white?

              Complete with photos to emphasis the point. So yes this story was about framed to be all about white males from the outset. I didn’t set the agenda.

              The more I look at this entire story, the more utterly ridiculous it gets. One small interaction in a noisy street protest, selectively video’ed for a specific impact. It’s called propaganda and not even very good propaganda, except that many people here seem determined to believe it.

              Note carefully; at no point am I saying Sandmann necessarily did the right thing, arguably if he’d not been there, or stepped aside, or gave Phillips a big hug or something, then we’d have no story. (Good news never being of interest of course.)

              But equally what I see is a defensive nervousness and overreaction to a crowd drama, by a young person who simply doesn’t rate the global vindictiveness heaped upon him.

            • DJ Ward 16.1.2.1.1.3

              That’s not true. Like everything the serial protester Phillips has said.

              He said he was trying to climb the steps to get the memorial, and has said he was trying to get between the groups.

              Which one is truthfull. None.

              His group of adults moved in to confront the boys.

              Just as earlier in the day they entered into a church to disrupt procedings.

              • You can tell yourself all you like that the old fella was a “serial protester” or that he did this or said that and that it satisfies you he was responsible for the whole thing, none of it alters the fact that the video shows a group of privileged white boys mocking an elderly native American.

          • joe90 16.1.2.1.2

            an anti-white, anti-male agenda.

            If the kids were black and Phillips white, they’d almost certainly have had the law set onto them and be lucky not to get themselves shot.

            And if they were arrested and charged, it’s likely they’d still be struggling to get themselves bailed.

            • Gosman 16.1.2.1.2.1

              Why didn’t Phillips approach the BHI group?

              • Maybe because he figured a large chanting crowd was more of a threat to five black guys than vice versa?

                • Gosman

                  And he was wrong. The BHI crowd were the agitators in the whole drama. The actions of the school kids were a non-violent response to abusive behaviour.

                  Phillips had no clue what the real picture was but only saw a bunch of “White” (although I suspect there would have been many different cultures) kids opposing some African Americans and decided to back the African Americans based on their ethnicity and because he felt they were being ‘intimidated’.

                  • You can make all the confident assertions you like about what assumptions the participants were making, it doesn’t alter what’s on the video – which is a crowd of privileged white kids mocking an elderly native American.

                    • Gosman

                      These aren’t assumptions. It is what Phillips himself stated was his motivation.

                    • Confident assertion: “Phillips had no clue what the real picture was.”

                      Confident assertion: “[He] only saw a bunch of “White” … kids opposing some African Americans and decided to back the African Americans…”

                      Assumption: “…although I suspect there would have been many different cultures…”

                      Confident assertion: “[Phillips backed the Black Israelites] based on their ethnicity…”

                      EDIT: forgot one:

                      Confident assertion: “And he was wrong.” In what way was he wrong? A large crowd working itself up with chanting is by definition a lot more of a threat than five Black dudes standing about talking trash.

              • DJ Ward

                They did at the beginning but the BHI group was racist towards them and they retreated. Even some other black guys argued with them and they got called the N word etc.

          • Psycho Milt 16.1.2.1.3

            I don’t argue anything about Sandmann’s actions, he’s just person in a crowd. Whichever video of this incident you watch, it shows a crowd of privileged white kids mocking an elderly native American. Taking irrelevant facts and calling them “context” doesn’t change the essential nature of the incident.

            • Gosman 16.1.2.1.3.1

              Phillips should not have approached the group of kids. He should have attempted to de-escalate the BHI group. However Phillips obviously had his own agenda. He didn’t really want to tackle the cause of the disturbance but to confront what he saw as White racist behaviour. In doing so he himself became guilty of racism.

              • Phillips should not have approached the group of kids.

                Shoulda, woulda, coulda. What matters is what did happen.

                • Gosman

                  What did happen was some elderly gentleman misread a situation, decided to interject himself in a manner that was quite unusual and then got all upset when he wasn’t ‘respected’ (despite not respecting the people he was intervening against).

        • shadrach 16.1.2.2

          To clarify, my point was really to highlight the speed at which some people believe fake news. When it suits them.

  17. Morrissey 17

    Blocking free speech in New Zealand: an ugly incident from four years ago.
    The Hon. Iain Lees-Galloway and co., Waitangi Day, 2015

    Here’s another example of people surrounding protestors in a public space, and showing contempt for free speech. The thugs on this occasion weren’t American high school dolts, however, they were well connected New Zealand adults….

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/11/labour-puts-up-cordon-of-black-suited.html

  18. DJ Ward 18

    Note to the Author.

    In the US posts like this are rapidly being retracted with apologies. The reason is that a lawyer has volunteered to represent all the people affected for free. Normally very few can afford to take on the CNNs of this world, but they are backtracking rapidly.

    In the US the rules for slandering a child is different for slandering an adult. Essentially there is no tolerance for getting things wrong, misrepresenting etc. Fake News is normal for Trump and he is near powerless to stop it. Children however are out of bounds, as it should be.

    There is something cringeworthy in using a child to score political points. It becomes offensive when so much said is so blatantly dishonest.

    While in the heat of the moment the Author has copied similar opinions, a little time to reflect on how that has pitfalls is probably a good idea.

    • Thanks, DJ. As usual with suggestions like yours, I offer the celebrated response in Arkell v Pressdram. Cheers. TRP

      • DJ Ward 18.1.1

        I was expecting a very similar response, and yes I did have to look it up. I had dinner, had a water squirter fight that I lost as I was unarmed, a game of tag that didn’t last long as I ran out of puff, and hung out a load of washing. At the end of it I was still having giggles. Without doubt the most polite way of saying where to go I’ve ever had while being perfectly on topic.

        • te reo putake 18.1.1.1

          Yeah, it’s great, isn’t it? And pretty edgy for the time (early seventies). Arkell may have backed out of the case, but his unintended contribution to English legal tradition will live on.

  19. DJ Ward 19

    A recent update is Law Enforcement is going no hold barred on investigating all the felony qualifying comments. So that’s threats against the school and students. They have already made the court applications for account details etc for in and out of state Twitter accounts etc. Apparently it may include celebrities. The lower felony is 1 to 5 years in prison, and the higher one is 5 to 10 years. In state they will be including misdemeanours. Felony charges allow extradition so they can’t hide out of state.

    Lesson: Don’t threaten to burn down, bomb, or shoot up schools.

  20. jaymam 20

    The Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception has confirmed that protesters led by the Native American activist Nathan Phillips attempted to disrupt the celebration of Mass on the evening of Jan. 19.

    … while Mass was being celebrated, “a group of approximately 50 individuals attempted to gain entrance to the basilica while chanting and hitting drums.”

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/basilica-confirms-nathan-phillips-protest-attempted-mass-disruption-43932

    • joe90 20.1

      In other news, Catholic fascists use gobby little shit stains to interfere in women’s rights to reproductive autonomy.

      • joe90 20.1.1

        Sending quite the message by drafting the gobby little pricks to aid a campaign to deprive women of their reproductive autonomy and then allow them to abuse passing women, engage crazy street preachers and then make an effort to intimidate an elderly minority man.

        Little wonder a top flight crisis management outfit was engaged.

  21. Edward J Max 21

    You dickwads. Nathan Phillips is not a Vietnam Vet. I am tired of fake news. Do your due diligence! Anyway, what adults treat children the way they treats these Covington kids? Answer: Child abusers. This is one of the most fake, phony, fraud news stories of the year, so far. But stay tuned.

  22. jaymam 22

    The Standard had better hope that these lawyers don’t read this post and sue The Standard.
    “In the coming weeks, we will be carefully reviewing all of the false accusations and threats made against Nick. We fully expect that a multitude of civil lawsuits will be filed and aggressively pursued. We recognize that justice for Nick will not be achieved quickly, but we are dedicated to achieving it for this young man regardless of time or expense.”
    http://www.hemmerlaw.com/blog/statement-of-attorneys-l-lin-wood-and-todd-mcmurtry-on-behalf-of-nick-sandmann-and-his-family

    • Yeah, I’m quaking in my Doc’s. Honestly held opinion is a solid defense in these situations, jayman. So the young racist, and his ambulance chasing lawyers, can do one.

    • lprent 22.2

      Suffice it to say; that when and if in receipt of any legal correspondence, I will happily publish both it and my reply with one of the various historical replies for such extortion.

      In the meantime, I will just deal with the local dipshits who try similar stupid intimidation attempts to prevent discussion. Like you for instance.

      As a matter of interest, have you forgotten how to use the reply button. If you have a technical or cognitive issue with the reply button, then just reference the comment number in your comment. It makes it easier for others trying to figure out what you are talking about, and makes you look a lot less like retarded loon.

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  • Speech to Labour Party Congress 2020
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  • Speech by the Minister of Defence to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs
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  • Statement on passage of national security law for Hong Kong
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