Facts don’t matter

19 comments on “Facts don’t matter ”

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1. Bill 1

   28 March 2010 at 11:51 am

   There are no facts associated with religious belief and people adhere to the various worldviews presented by religions. And they switch from one to another.

   It follows then, that lessons can be learned from looking at whichever religious sect is enjoying most growth and adopting their techniques.

   Alternatively, climate change is sold in Judeo- Christian wrapping to Judeo-Christians and in whatever terms necessary to any particular constituency that needs to be reached.

   Or attractive alternatives to all the behaviours and habits that drive climate change are proposed, constructed and developed by those who accept the facts. As the viability and ‘common sense’ of these alternatives become apparent, then people from all walks and of all world views might be drawn to them for their own sake. Not because of climate change…which could be a good thing insofar as it might moderate the influence and destructive capabilities of well meaning zealots…while ensuring that catastrophe is avoided.

   So yet again, revolution seems to be the only practical way forward. So when you’ve finished with the liberal wringing of the hands and the throwing of the hands in the air in despair, you think we could get started?
2. Draco T Bastard 2

   28 March 2010 at 12:13 pm

   I’ve been saying for awhile that the political right are delusional. Now there’s even more research to back that up.

   Give them an argument with facts backing it up and they always turn around and say something like “no, that’s not right” or “that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it”. The facts have no meaning for the political right as they always go against what they want which is more and more wealth accumulated to themselves and no restrictions on what they can do.

   Sooner or later we are going to have to have Bills revolution because this socio-economic system (Capitalism) we live under was designed by them and is just as delusional.
   • Bill 2.1

     28 March 2010 at 12:30 pm

     Unfortunately, the political left is just as delusional.

     Think of certain sections of the left who wax lyrical on ‘if’s and and’s’ in relation to certain revolutionary events from 90 odd years ago…their ‘if only’ so-and-so hadn’t died and ‘if only’ so-and-so hadn’t been exiled alongside their ‘if it hadn’t been for the civil war’….all the while ignoring the fact that the dungeon built atop shattered revolutionary dreams was the inevitable consequence of the structures and systems employed by the revolutionary actors.

     By the way. Bills revolution is an ongoing affair.( Began around ’82 from memory) Join in any time you like!
     • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1

       28 March 2010 at 1:34 pm

       Oh, I don’t think the left are delusional – they can be brought round by argument but it takes awhile as the learning has to go against decades of the status quo.
       • Bill 2.1.1.1

         28 March 2010 at 2:04 pm

         Aw c’mon.

         Leaving aside the delusional belief, that persists in spite of a couple of hundred years worth of evidence to the contrary, that reform will, of and by itself, be sufficient to set our political, cultural and economic ills to rights, I could give you a whole shopping list of ‘left’ cults or so-called ‘schools of thought’ that are delusional to the core; whose adherents ignore facts just as adeptly as any deluded advocate of right wing politics.

         And I could run through a list of left cults where intelligent dissent is countered, first of all by use of derision and mockery, followed by expulsion soon after. ( Why else you think the left is riven with splits and schisms and god knows what, if it’s not due to the dynamics of authoritarian structures perpetuating and reinforcing ‘correct’ thoughts?)

         And then there are the studies showing that the tendency to be a thoughtless follower of authoritarian systems or thought is independent of right and left wing political views…Bob Altemeyer, ‘The Authoritarians’ is an online book dealing with the matter and worth downloading.
         • Ianmac 2.1.1.1.1

           28 March 2010 at 4:09 pm

           Bill. I enjoy the discussions on both sides on this blog. But both of your posts are unintellible to me. The only thing I can draw from it is that you know stuff that prove that you know of many issues that prove that those on the liberal side are bigoted or close minded or based on no “proof”. Meaningless rubbish Bill.
           • Bill 2.1.1.1.1.1

             28 March 2010 at 7:29 pm

             Liberals who embrace the social democratic view of our polities…who ascribe solely to the ‘civilised’ ,’let’s sit down and talk about it’ mentality…a demonstratively ineffective approach to societies ills, do indeed spout ‘meaningless rubbish’ when that is promoted as the ‘be all and end all’.

             Witness the interminable discussions about ‘what to do ‘ and the wringing of the liberal hands while countless millions of us succumb to the immediate realities of the systems we live by and (by proxy) promote. It’s all perhaps epitomised by the imaginary ( yet all too common) individual who proclaims.. ‘I drip sweat from my wrenching palms on questions of racism or sexism or class because there is nothing else I can do beyond despair.’

             Now, I suspect that you favour reform of our present political reality. I think that’s good. But I don’t think it’s enough.

             Here’s he rub. I’ll support you in your reformist efforts…that almost goes without question…. but are you going to set me up as an adversary when I look to push the envelope or are you going to lend your shoulder?
3. mickysavage 3

   28 March 2010 at 12:30 pm

   Bill you are not making any sense.

   Climate change “believers” are not “zealots”, their belief is based on the mountain of evidence that has been studied and examined over the past 40 years.

   Deniers on the other hand are “zealots”. They choose a mistake in a footnote or an email offered in jest or exasperation as proof that the mountain of evidence is false.

   They do not bother to analyse all of the evidence. They throw “zealot” at those who think there is a problem to denigrate them and trivialise the basis for their concerns.

   I am not a “believer”. I am pretty sure the huge majority of scientists have it right however because the climate model appears to be correct and there is evidence of warming.

   And even if they are not right the consequences of inaction are too big to countenance.
   • Bill 3.1

     28 March 2010 at 12:52 pm

     I agree with everything you say, but can see no point in denying that fanatics exist in the climate change camp too.

     Not everybody is swayed to their stance by rational argument ( the point of the post I thought). Emotive appeals work. There are climate change believers who have not thought things through…who are happy to have their beliefs dictated by others or who are swayed by appeals to emotion.

     I find such people dangerous.

     They tend to be unstoppable in their ‘enthusiasm’ for whichever cause they have latched on to. And given certain political circumstances, their ‘enthusiasm’ winds up exhibiting itself negatively as only they embody ‘correct’ attitudes in sufficient measure (as formulated by a charismatic leader, not scientists). Then they run around exacting escalating punishments on the heretics and iconoclasts….which, ironically, will include you and me.

     Again. Think back 90 odd years. Really good idea. Loads of enthusiasm. Then, a charismatic leader and a whole mass of people ready and willing to follow and obey to the letter pulling everything into a screaming heap.

     Any number of illustrative examples if you reflect for a second or two.
     • ropata 3.1.1

       29 March 2010 at 9:51 pm

       I find such people dangerous
       Ironic given your repeated calls for revolution
4. pollywog 4

   28 March 2010 at 2:22 pm

   Hyperstition – ‘fictions make themselves real’

   nothing is perfect
   in the space where nothing exists
   will one find perfection
   the perfect nothing

   accept nothing as fact
   question everything
   determine your own truth
   define your own reality

   http://blog.urbanomic.com/sphaleotas/archives/000489.html

   http://hauntedgeographies.typepad.com/basho/2008/02/74.html

   http://www.cold-me.net/polytics/index.html

   http://pollywannacracka.blogspot.com/2009/04/hyperstition.html

   🙂
5. DeepRed 5

   28 March 2010 at 4:00 pm

   The ‘facts are stupid’ brigade are not far removed from what Johann Hari calls followers of the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Mecca‘, or ‘Eurabia’.
6. Nick C 6

   28 March 2010 at 6:58 pm

   Its true that many on the right reject scientific evidence on global warming, and i dont agree with them on that. However politically the debate tends to be about two things:

   1) To what extent is it economically beneficial to reduce emmissions (i.e. cost of reduction vs cost of not reducing)
   2) What is the most efficient way to reduce emmissions

   I think overwelmingly the evidence suggests that its too late to reverse the major trends of global warming (pretty much every year we are told that damage will be irreversable if we dont do something this year), and that we should adapt to it. The left seem far more interested in making massive emmissions cuts which do not stand up to a cost benefit analysis.
   • lprent 6.1

     28 March 2010 at 8:01 pm

     The problem is that our emissions world wide are rising almost exponentially. The majority of the emissions are buffered, effectively stored, and of those the majority will within a relatively short period will eventually re-emit.

     The issue is how to reduce the rate of increase. Otherwise our ability to adjust to the climate changes will eventually not be sufficient.
   • Con 6.2

     28 March 2010 at 8:17 pm

     You are drawing a false dichotomy between adaptation and mitigation – we don’t have to choose between one and the other. We can in fact walk and chew gum at the same time. Or as Mao Zedong used to say, “walk on two legs”.

     It is indeed too late to avoid dangerous climate change, but the sooner drastic cuts in emissions are made, the less disastrous it will be. Certainly if cuts are NOT made, then no amount of adaptation is going to save us from collapse.
     • Galeandra 6.2.1

       28 March 2010 at 9:55 pm

       I’m with you Bill. Let’s get on with the commercial hunting of whalers.
7. B 7

   28 March 2010 at 10:26 pm

   Climate change deniers are similar to Creationists in their astounding ability to look at incontrovertible evidence and ignore it. When people operate from a mindset that says I know the truth already and I am right, no amount of evidence will sway them. I agree with Bill though when he says people across the political spectrum can suffer from the same fact-blindness. Righties are just wrong more often ay ; )
8. deemac 8

   29 March 2010 at 9:53 am

   Paul Morris put it well when he said that you can’t use reason to dissuade people from a position that they didn’t use reason to reach (or words to that effect). Sometimes politicians (and others)just have to show leadership (the current govt couldn’t even spell it) – eg the nuclear-free issue -though of course there are also dangers associated with THAT concept.

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1. Gabriella Turek: posted on 29 March 2010 at 9:46 am

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