Fool me once…

50 comments on “Fool me once… ”

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1. Clarke 1

   14 October 2009 at 9:13 am

   The Maori Party’s mana enhancement must be deep into negative numbers by now …
2. rocky 2

   14 October 2009 at 9:14 am

   Wow, when you put all those things in one list like that, how could the Maori party not realise what is happening? You’d think Hone Harawira at least must be close to walking…
   • rocky 2.1

     14 October 2009 at 9:17 am

     Still, strategy wise, I can’t help but think if the Maori party walk at least some time before the next election (probably the closer the better in that respect), no doubt they’ll only increase their support.
     • IrishBill 2.1.1

       14 October 2009 at 9:24 am

       As I understand it Hone isn’t showing up in the house much and when he does he doesn’t look very happy. It’s a shame, I like the guy and I reckon he’s got a lot of potential.
       • rocky 2.1.1.1

         14 October 2009 at 10:16 am

         Agreed. Hone is very much like the Sue Bradford of the Maori Party.
         • HitchensFan 2.1.1.1.1

           14 October 2009 at 11:05 am

           Agreed Rocky. He’s great. And he must be so outraged, Talk about mana shafted over and over again.
3. outofbed 3

   14 October 2009 at 9:37 am

   Are the Maori caucus in the Labour party using these slights to their advantage? It would seem to me to be a huge opportunity.
   As said on the” dropping the ball thread” its not like National aren’t giving free hits at the moment
   • rocky 3.1

     14 October 2009 at 10:18 am

     Labour attacking the Maori Party is about the last thing that would help right now. All it would do is play into the Maori Party’s beliefs (and more importantly those of their constituents) that Labour and National are as bad as each other. Labour need to show there is a way for the two parties to work constructively together.
     • IrishBill 3.1.1

       14 October 2009 at 11:36 am

       Bingo.
     • outofbed 3.1.2

       14 October 2009 at 12:50 pm

       They don’t seem to be “helping their constituents at all at the moment In fact selling out to National has done the opposite
       • rocky 3.1.2.1

         14 October 2009 at 12:54 pm

         It’s called perception.
4. Robert Winter 4

   14 October 2009 at 9:49 am

   Derek Fox was convincing in his ‘9 to Noon’ account of what happened around the World Cup bidding fiasco. The Maori Party has been comprehensively, deliberately and cynically shafted. National will have made the calculation that for the Maori Party, the costs of walking away from their arrangements with National remain too great, and that, therefore, National can trample on the Maori Party with impunity. The problem for the Maori Party is that, for many National members, the only role for the Maori Party is parliamentary support. For that group, whether they walk or not is, long term, immaterial. They are useful for the moment. It is about time that someone woke up and smelt the flowers.
5. sk 5

   14 October 2009 at 9:56 am

   But Labour has to work out how to have a more constructive relationship with the Maori Party, with the duality that entails – competing hard in the electorates, but having a co-operative relationship after.

   The ‘Last cab off the rank’ comment was very demeaning and damaging. HC grew up on confiscated land, and at some level, was not entirely comfortable with Maori aspirations – whether for political or personal reasons. Trevor Mallard still does not get it. So there is a lot of work for Labour to exploit this rising tension. But exploit it they must (but in a way that affirms the MP as a vehicle for Maori aspiration)
   • snoozer 5.1

     14 October 2009 at 10:02 am

     agreed. But the Maori Party also has to do it’s part – ie stop selling out
     • Zaphod Beeblebrox 5.1.1

       14 October 2009 at 10:40 am

       Whats so galling is that the MP get so hot under collar about TV for a one-off rugby tournament when they have just sold us out by agreeing to cap emission costs under the ETS.

       CO2 increases are permanent the RWC will be history in two years.

       I really wish they would reconsider their vote on the ETS.

       Reading their own Select Committee report would be a good start.
6. Neil 6

   14 October 2009 at 10:07 am

   Labour do not get it at all. What ever you think of National, under Labour Sharples would not even have been allowed to put through this proposal.

   Just look at how willing Labour was to spend hundreds of millions on the RWC but when it comes to a mere $3m (of Maori money what’s more) there is a big problem.

   Labour really do have to come to a realisation they have to pay more than lip-service to Maori control of Maori issues and stop appealing to the red-neck vote.
   • snoozer 6.1

     14 October 2009 at 10:12 am

     not sure it’s Labour’s fault that the Maori Party lets itself get done over every time.
   • gobsmacked 6.2

     14 October 2009 at 10:14 am

     Under Labour, Maori television was set up. Opposed by National.

     Under National, Maori television would not have existed to make the proposal at all.

     (I know they like to pretend history began in 2008, but we’re not all amnesiacs)
   • rocky 6.3

     14 October 2009 at 10:15 am

     under Labour Sharples would not even have been allowed to put through this proposal.

     LOL. so it’s better to have a party pretend to accept your proposal, and then trample over it later, rather than just reject it in the first place?
   • Blue 6.4

     14 October 2009 at 10:58 am

     Helen Clark actually said the Maori Party were the last cab off the rank because she had other options. And she did. For National, they were the only cab left on the rank and they had to do a deal with them because apart from the far-right ACT party and the one-seat-wonder United Future, no one would work with them.

     It wasn’t out of the goodness of their hearts, it was cynical political insurance against ACT taking them hostage by refusing to vote for legislation they consider too soft.

     They never intended to give the Maori Party any real gains, just the warm fuzzy feeling that they were part of Government without having anything to show for it.

     And everyone could see it coming except Pita.

     How’s that for paying lip-service?
     • rocky 6.4.1

       14 October 2009 at 6:15 pm

       Helen Clark actually said the Maori Party were the last cab off the rank because she had other options.

       Bearing in mind Helen said that in a PRE-election debate.
7. Neil 7

   14 October 2009 at 10:20 am

   “not sure it’s Labour’s fault that the Maori Party lets itself get done over every time.”

   on this issue they appear to have lost but remember – Labour wanted the MP to lose this and have campaigned for this to happen. Labour are now crowing. And if they were in government the MP would never have had the autonomy to put this forward in the first place.

   A clear indication that Labour are stuck in paternalism mode.
   • gobsmacked 7.1

     14 October 2009 at 10:30 am

     If National had been in government Pita Sharples could not put anything forward, because his seat would have been abolished.

     If National had been in government Maori TV could not put anything forward, because it would not exist. Labour set up Maori TV, and National opposed it.

     Neil, you might want to pretend history began in 2008, but it didn’t. So what you’re trying to say is “Thanks for saving us from National!”.

     (You’re welcome)
8. Ianmac 8

   14 October 2009 at 10:50 am

   Robert Winter: Yes. Derek Fox managed to state the case very explicitly and succinctly. Katherine found herself out gunned as Derek let it all hang out. Well worth the listen about a third into the podcast.
   http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20091014-0910-Rugby_World_Cup_broadcasting_rights-048.mp3
9. aj 9

   14 October 2009 at 11:00 am

   Sharples reminds me more of Alamein Kopu every day.
   • rocky 9.1

     14 October 2009 at 11:18 am

     Sorry but what the fuck?
     • aj 9.1.1

       14 October 2009 at 11:21 am

       Mis-representing his voters and in for the $$
       • rocky 9.1.1.1

         14 October 2009 at 11:24 am

         I’m not sure that they did misrepresent their voters. If they had actually propped up a National government sure, but the situation was that National were to lead the government regardless.

         As for the $$$, got any proof that that has anything to do with his reasoning for being in government? Bearing in mind this is a smart guy with a PhD who could no doubt earn heaps in the private sector if that were the life he had chosen to live.
10. Tammy Gordon 10

    14 October 2009 at 11:16 am

    If Maori really wanted to make the point they could boycott all ceremonial parts they were going to play in the World Cup. No hongi, no welcomes, no mare visits, no haka (man up ABs).

    They have the right to be more than tourist attractions in their own land.
    • HitchensFan 10.1

      14 October 2009 at 11:22 am

      awesome idea. Because all Key et all will want them there for is to wriggle their hips and poke their tongues out (to quote someone, not sure who, on Nat Radio this morning)
11. aj 11

    14 October 2009 at 11:31 am

    I think its the combination of money, power, and mana. Like Kopu. For some people this trumps anything else life can offer. Intellectual smarts don’t always translate to a fully grounded personality. You don’t have to look far to see that.
12. Neil 12

    14 October 2009 at 11:37 am

    “Neil, you might want to pretend history began in 2008, but it didn’t. So what you’re trying to say is “Thanks for saving us from National!’.”

    I do have vague memories of the Foreshore and Seabed legislation that was a bit before 2008 I gather. Maybe history means different things to different people.

    But the fact remains the MP acted in an autonomous fashion that has upset large sections of the rugby fraternity, Labour and sundry left-wing activists. It’s been very enlightening.
13. Neil 13

    14 October 2009 at 11:48 am

    “They have the right to be more than tourist attractions in their own land.”

    and for just $3m. Given the hundreds of millions both Labour and National are prepared to spend on the RWC it seems such a small price to pay for a real slice of autonomy.

    I think that currently the govt will be subsidising this to the tune of $300m – a lot less than Labour with the $700m stadium – but still a considerable amount of money that could have been spent on health and education etc.

    But $3m for MTV is too much. It’s been a very enlightening issue and I think Dr Walker is spot on once again.
    • sk 13.1

      14 October 2009 at 12:27 pm

      Neil,

      You are right. What Labour needs to understand is that the Maori Party is not behaving in a vacuum. There is a real grievance here vis-a-vis the Labour Party (going back decades), and John Key has positioned himself extremely well – particularly with Pita Sharples. It is a measure of the underlying grievance with Labour that the Maori Party has coped with the shit thrown at them by NACT.

      But ultimately John key is insincere when it comes to Maori aspirations, maybe not personally, but as leader of the National Party. You cannot appeal to Rob’s Mob and sustain an alliance with the Maori Party.

      But Labour has to drop their pakeha paternalism, and accept the MP has a (the) vehicle for Maori aspirations. They are not there yet . . ..
      • Neil 13.1.1

        14 October 2009 at 12:47 pm

        Imagine how well placed Labour would have been now if they had supported the MTV bid. Key is facing a major crisis with the MP and yet Labour didn’t support the MP – quite the opposite, they campaigned to have the bid fail.

        So what can Labour say now? How can they criticise National for not considering Maori aspirations when they’re gloating over what they see as a political victory over Sharples.

        I really do think there will have to major changes within Labour before they can work with the MP.
        • r0b 13.1.1.1

          14 October 2009 at 1:23 pm

          Labour didn’t support the MP quite the opposite, they campaigned to have the bid fail

          Can you point me to some of that campaigning? I recall a blog from Trevor on Red Alert – was there more than that?
          • lprent 13.1.1.1.1

            14 October 2009 at 1:29 pm

            Yeah I wasn’t aware that Trevor (an avowed rugby nutter (sorry Trevor)) writing on a blog in a personal opinion constitutes a Labour ‘campaign’. If one of the other Labour MP’s had put up a conflicting post, I’d guess that it’d get spun as ‘conflict in the caucus’

            Sounds like someone has a extremely fertile imagination, and they really need to extract their head out of their arse.
            • sk 13.1.1.1.1.1

              14 October 2009 at 2:53 pm

              jezz, Iprent. This bucket of vitriol you just tipped over Neil’s head (see below) is something I would expect from Kiwiblog.

              Bottom line is that NZ Labour Party has screwed up it’s relationship with Maori, and that is why MP is in coalition with National. And that is what needs fixing, with people like Shane Jones taking the lead and whities like Trevor need to breathe through their nose

              I do not see how your response advances the cause in any way. What Neil has said is perfectly reasonable. The NZLP needs the MP if it is to regain power, and needs to be driving a wedge between National and MP, and forcing John Key out into open
              
              [lprent: damn… My reply went further down… Suffice it to say the moderators tend to be extreme here, it ensures that the rest of the commentary stays reasonable by our standards. That was quite moderate for me…. 😈 ]
              • lprent …

                14 October 2009 at 3:16 pm

                sk: I’m known for having little time for foolish statements, especially when I’m moderating while running a compile (which is what I was doing at the time). Neils comment triggered my anti-trolling checking for being so overtly stupid. ie it wasted my time.

                I tend to the vitriol as part of a general personal policy of education about idiocy reduction. He should have read his comment prior to saying something so daft. He should take a bit more care, after all he may wind up with a sysop who has a bug to fix and a fetish for reducing problems in the future….

                I thought I was quite restrained… I didn’t even drop it in as a big black note all over his comment
          • Neil 13.1.1.1.2

            14 October 2009 at 1:36 pm

            Trevor Mallard is a senior Labour MP who has made a series of attacks on the Maori Party over MTV and the RWC.

            Since no Labour MP has come out supporting the MTV bid I assume Mallard’s views are the views of Labour. Perhaps I’m wrong and Phil Goff and others support the bid but if that’s the case then they’ve been very quite and it’s probably a bit late.
            • lprent 13.1.1.1.2.1

              14 October 2009 at 1:48 pm

              Do you read your own comments.

              You just said that Labour not doing anything was a campaign. I suspect not even having a policy or an opinion on the topic in your eyes would constitute a suspicious activity. In which case the NZLP would be indeed worthy of your suspicious attention……

              As I said, you need to get your head out of your arse…. Your brain is turning to crap.

              Personally as a member of the NZLP I have no opinion on a frigging mindless rugby game apart from my local traffic and parking being a problem around Eden Park. You’d probably rate that as supporting the Taliban.

              Face it, you sound like a dickhead….
14. Nick C 14

    14 October 2009 at 1:30 pm

    “•housing insulation for Maori Maori Party screwed”

    Actually didnt National cut them a deal on that as part of the ETS, so in fact that was a victory for the Maori party?

    “The only things Key hasn’t screwed them on yet are the foreshore and seabed.’

    Well i dont see how he could, Helen Clark Labour trampled over Maori rights to the courts so badly with that legislation thats theres really not much more National could do. It should be repealed though, and Key has been too slow to do that.

    “•Free access for Maori to uni Maori Party screwed”

    That was always a really stupid idea. Pita Sharples retracted that policy very quickly.
    • lprent 14.1

      14 October 2009 at 1:50 pm

      On the first one – nope.

      That was what the Pita (?) claimed after talking to that ditherer John Key. The relevant ministers came out the following day and said that they were going to do it anyway as part of their agreement with the greens.

      It was a case of John Key selling the same concession twice…
      • Nick C 14.1.1

        14 October 2009 at 2:22 pm

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2872285/Boost-for-low-income-Maori-in-ETS-deal
        • lprent 14.1.1.1

          14 October 2009 at 2:33 pm

          Wow you really are behind… Here is a summary of that particular screwup – have a look at the links.

          http://www.thestandard.org.nz/get-it-in-writing/

          Guess that wasn’t published on Kiwiblog…
15. Neil 15

    14 October 2009 at 2:26 pm

    “You just said that Labour not doing anything was a campaign.”

    If Trevor Mallard’s views don’t represent Labour and Labour supports the MTV bid then I’m relieved and certainly take back the “Labour campaign” allegation.

    I don’t have inside information on how the Labour Party works and so like a lot of people have to go by public statements and tend to regard the public statements of senior MPs to be at at least a measure of how the party feels on an issue.

    I’m not a big fan of rugby either but can see the reason why the major parties would see it in NZ’s interest to financially support the RWC. It would have been great to see Maori profiled massively for just $3m and would be delighted if Labour does support the MTV bid.
    • r0b 15.1

      14 October 2009 at 2:36 pm

      tend to regard the public statements of senior MPs to be at at least a measure of how the party feels on an issue.

      Trevor posted a blog that could be read as critical of the MTV bid, Shane posted one that could be read as supportive.

      http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/10/07/rugby-world-cup-in-te-reo/

      You have as much evidence to claim that Labour is “campaigning” for the bid as against. For the record however, I agree that Labour should sort out and publicly state its position on this, which I believe should be in support of MTV.
      • sk 15.1.1

        14 October 2009 at 2:47 pm

        The conclusion is that Trevor Mallard should stay away from Maori issues, and give the space for Shane Jones to build a profile on this. Trevor always comes across as looking for the pakeha redneck vote
        • rocky 15.1.1.1

          14 October 2009 at 2:50 pm

          well said 🙂
      • Neil 15.1.2

        14 October 2009 at 3:01 pm

        “You have as much evidence to claim that Labour is “campaigning’ for the bid as against.”

        fair enough.

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