Get Ugly

Written By: - Date published: 9:20 am, October 20th, 2021 - 94 comments
Categories: covid-19, health - Tags:

Is this government quite incapable of being tough? We’ve got to the limits of kindness. The hard stuff of enforcement is being left to the Police and judges, not to the immense power of public persuasion that has already been applied to us vaccinated. Grow a spine government.

It’s Wednesday and after the awesome rollout about 1.8 million New Zealanders are still locked down. We are beyond the  Saturday of sausage sizzles, free coffee, free hangis, free food vouchers, free travel to and from venues, free bands, the glad-handling, the relentless social media campaigns, the political and celebrity star-power, the media darling dancing, hand-holding, free promises of jobs and tours, tens of $$millions into NGOs, and relentless manufactured glee with appropriately adulatory media coverage. 130,000 of the entire population of New Zealand vaccinated in a single day.

Monday it was back to the fudging and more people spreading a pandemic through idiocy.

Time to change the tone, all of us, elected politicians and health bureaucrats included. We all know of people who are suffering, committed relationship withering, jobs that have stunted to nothing, and just under 2 million Kiwis locked down because a handful of morons just can’t be bothered for the rest of us. And then after they get caught they say sooooo-reeeeeee. Really sorry you are sick and I made it happen. Soooooooooooo-reeeeeeeeee.

It is no fun to say but our hospital system is something to be avoided. You will sit in that emergency room chair for hours and hours on any day, even before all this. If you want more than stitches or a stent you will be waiting for months and you will likely get much sicker. Our hospitals have a very high chance that you will become worse interacting with them. That was before the un-Covid-vaccinated decided to make a moral stand for their freedoms. The Auckland region has a minor outbreak of COVID Delta and the entire 3 DHB’s are preparing for isolation tents set up in car parks. It’s a full public service precariat.

Why is it this entire government incapable of holding criminally stupid citizens to account by name? Is this leftie government so weak it is yet again unable to translate from policy to compulsion? 90% appears to be the limit of where this naive view of human nature gets us.

If our authority figures are going to have the courage to name and shame the horse-riders who jet to Wanaka and the influencers who party on the North Shore like it’s 1999, we should also be capable of naming and shaming the dangerous criminals spreading it among the poor. It’s just pc bullshit hypocrisy.

The people one could appeal to through selflessness, nobility, national cause, protection of family and community – those people are vaccinated already.

Barring medical exceptions, we’re getting to the 10% who are selfish, rebellious, criminal superspreaders, easily led, paranoid, anarchistic, and antisocial. You won’t get to those with kindness.

We need public messaging that we can all share which focuses on what life will be shortly like for the unvaccinated.

It’s time to get disgusting.

We do it for our multi-decade anti-smoking campaigns with gooey glee.

We do it for our anti drink-driving campaigns with skull-smashing shock.

We do it for our anti drug-driving and anti-drug campaigns with both fun and shame.

We do it for people imagining they would do any high risk activity needing ACC.

We do it for anti domestic violence campaigns without breaking a sweat.

We do it for anti-suicide campaigns in harrowing detail.

If you go onto the Reddit site r/nursing you can see all of the unvaccinated consequences with all the runny-plumb-chutney closeups you could imagine. Patients with maggots in their sinus cavities. Intubated pregnant women who give birth and die without so much as touching their baby, and the baby is straight to ICU. Long term fungal infections. Long term disability. Long term mental strain and mental damage. With that will come long term sickness beneficiaries and ACC claims, and of course straight after that will come long term needless poverty and utterly wasted lives.

What we will get to next for those unvaccinated individuals is that they will be very hard to employ, very hard to house, very hard to befriend or even have in your house, deeper morbidity and faster deaths.

Go to GoFundMe and search COVID and you will see the financial hell that the unvaccinated put on their families. Often they die anyway and still leave the financial debt on their already-grieving families.

So there’s plenty there to generate a bit of stick with, all factual, just without the happy-clappy bullshit.

We’ve had 6 months of Team of Five Million and full credit for the results. We’ll get to 90% in Auckland in a week and 90% for the rest of the country through November.

Now it’s time to get ugly on the rest.

94 comments on “Get Ugly ”

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  1. GreenBus 1
    20 October 2021 at 9:43 am

    Agree with all that and I'm not locked down. I feel for Auckland waiting patiently for the last 10% to get the jab. I think the PM is going softly softly because of the potential backlash from the Maori and P.I population and being judged as racist if she gave the order to open up. I'm sure the Govt would get cracking if it was only us whities doing this.

    • lprent 1.1
      20 October 2021 at 3:50 pm

      You seem to be somewhat ignorant of the actual issues.

      Geometric progression and the health system capability are the primary issues. The race issues has bugger all to do with it except for higher susceptibility and lower vaccination rates.

      The current R0 for Auckland appears to be running at something like 1.3 (it was heading under 1.0 at level 4). Which is why we have a slowly increasing trend. Removing the current lockdown will release it to move towards its natural rate for delta at something like 6.5. I'd pick it at running on something like 3.0 because people will remain cautious for a while with masks etc.

      All the vaccine does is to make it much more unlikely that any infection will cause a person who is vaccinated to need to go to hospital. It doesn't stop them getting the disease, it just makes them less likely to get it badly. They are probably less infectious as well – but on the other hand, they will tend to be dickheads who think that they are immune – and couldn't give a shit about who they kill by infecting them.

      So if you use a basic bit of maths and some simple assumptions you discover the joys of geometric progression.

      Auckland = ~1,600,000 people

      @ 10% not vaccinated = 160,000 people as hospitalisation targets.

      Approx 25-30% of those will need health case intervention at some level because there are a lot of vaccinated sources to infect them and give them a good high starting infection. = 160k * 0.3 = 48,000.

      Now if we had a r0 of 3.0 starting with say 100 infected and 4 days to infection spreader

      infected population every 4 days 100, 300, 900, 1800, 5400, 16200, 48600, 145800, 437400 at 32 days.
      Assuming an even spread that would be 43,740 unvaccinated and at 30% – 13,122 additional patients requiring medical care at some level in just over a month.

      That would be on top of the existing medical care that keeps our hospitals full. Auckland hospitals, clinics, and doctors typically run at well over 80% of their potential capacity. There isn't capacity to add 10 thousand plus in month.

      Now there are a lot of things wrong with my basic maths. But it is way more realistic that your rather dumbarse and unthinking reckons…

      So who do are you going to murder with your reckons.

      The cancer, elderly and diabetics patients being turfed out of hospital. Or have covid-19 patients dying everywhere? Can I leave the bodies on your lawn?

      We don't have a realistic working treatment for people infected with covid-19. The new one from Merck looks like the only one with verified recovery rate. We don't have a sterilising vaccine.

      Opening up has to be a careful process in what is essentially virus friendly population that has only largely been vaccinated and has a 30 year history of underfunded health care system that has little spare capacity.

      That is why the post was about going and locking up and shaming people violating the lockdowns rather removing the lockdowns.

      Most of those health violations are by ignorant self-centred fuckwit ‘whities’. Like that North shore party of the wealthy Aucklanders going on holidays or the people I see wandering around Ponsonby and Parnell without masks.

      • Leighton 1.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 8:30 pm

        Agree with your comments about the need for care in opening up, and a good analysis but perhaps slightly pessimistic on the numbers? Wouldn't a high double vaccination rate reduce the R value further (on top of the assumed reduction to 3.0 due to extra caution with mask-wearing etc)? I know the Pfizer vaccination isn't technically a sterilising one but there is plentiful evidence that it reduces the likelihood of infection (and the likelihood of being a spreader if you do get infected) so if we got to 90%+ double jabbed then surely this would slow down the spread even amongst the unvaccinated. Although if by then the unvaccinated are left only hanging out with each other (which is the track we're on) then maybe this theory won't hold.

      • Ed1 1.1.2
        20 October 2021 at 9:10 pm

        I agree that we should be following the percentage not vaccinated, and that should be of the whole population/ 10% of cases so far are in the age group 0 to 9 – all of those are currently ineligible. We are at about 57% fully vaccinated at present, with a further 16% with one injection, so we can be fairly confident that in 3 weeks we will have 73% fully vaccinated. Personally having seen how infectious Delta is, we need to get to 85% or 90% – but of the total population, not just 'those eligible'.

        We must also be close to having some of those vaccinated early, needing another injection . . .

      • GreenBus 1.1.3
        20 October 2021 at 9:46 pm

        I wouldn't murder anyone. I totally support Elimination, period. The move to suppression is state sanctioning of manslaughter or something similar IMO. It is Auckland that has given up Elimination and now getting very impatient to open up, it doesn't effect me I'm in the Naki.This impatience is directed at Maori for their low vaccination rate, and being too slow to get it done. Lockdown fatigue is causing Aucklands impatience, that and business non stop bleating about everything.

        My reckons that our PM is being extremely tolerant of the vax hesitant, of which Maori are a significant sector due to the issues of disadvantage and cultural differences that don't apply to us whities so much. In other words if this consideration for our cuzzies wasn't forthcoming, I reckons we would more likely have been thrown under the bus by now. I thank the heavens we have such a prime minister.

  2. Robert Guyton 2
    20 October 2021 at 9:47 am

    Are you channelling Judith Collins?

  3. Pete 3
    20 October 2021 at 9:49 am

    It's good that Thames-Coromandel Mayor Sandra Goudie​ has had more of a chance to explain herself past a short radio interview.

    A report today says she left high school with School C. It didn't mention if sciences were subjects she studied at that low level. Her husband might be the science buff in the family by what was written.

    The irony now is the best thing Sandra Goudie and her husband could do for public health in New Zealand is get Covid and suffer badly.

    Because of lockdowns, border controls, mask wearing, vaccinations, contact tracing, the effort of a lot of people, the Goudies may be be safe. Then no doubt they'll say, "See we were right." If they got a harsh dose other parasites might have cause to think and take action.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126714541/tell-the-mayor-to-get-vaccinated-sandra-goudie-wont-take-the-pfizer-vaccine-and-wont-say-why

    • miravox 3.1
      20 October 2021 at 10:04 am

      A report today says she left high school with School C. It didn't mention if sciences were subjects she studied at that low level. Her husband might be the science buff in the family by what was written.

      No idea what that sort of excusing is all about. She grew up with stories of polio, I imagine. She has no excuse. A GP in Murupara has just left their job due to not wanting a vaccination – plenty of education, yet there she is.

      Also I've no time for the ones who will say they'll take some other vaccine. They won't it's just them kicking the can down the road.

      These people are leaders. They need to have their platforms taken away. I'm well into cancel culture where this public health issue is concerned. Having said that, being the butt of a few jokes and a comedic roasting might be more effective.

    • alwyn 3.2
      20 October 2021 at 10:59 am

      You could have told the whole story about her education. The full sentence was "She left Queen’s High School in Dunedin at 16 with School Certificate, later doing university papers by correspondence." Someone who can leave school with School Cert and then do some University Studies, particularly by correspondence was actually showing a great deal of dedication.

      You should also realise that at the time she was at school only half the people who sat School Cert passed, and not all the pupils actually sat the exam or even remained at school for long enough to even reach the time to sit. To have passed School Certificate was to complete your education, at an above average level, for the majority of students in our education system.

      You should also look at the average education standards at the time. Goudie would have finished school in the late 1960's. The PMs of that era included Kirk, who left school at 13, Bolger who finished at 15 and Mike Moore at 14. None of them had attained School Certificate.

      She may be an idiot for not having her vaccinations but she is no different, after all, than about half the Maori population is she? She is also not as unschooled as you are implying.

      • Pete 3.2.1
        20 October 2021 at 11:14 am

        I understand the relationship between schooling and being educated.

        I don't mind making implications based on my inferences from what was written about Goudie's formal education. You might infer from it that she did all sorts of papers and graduated or got close to it. I might infer that she did English 1 and Geography 1 or parts thereof.

        Given the savaging of lifelong scientists over covid from those who have no record of science study I don't mind having a go at Goudie's attitude about science stuff.

        It's all right for the people who know a lot being told to 'suck it up.' Likewise Goudie. The experts put themselves out there. She did too.

        • alwyn 3.2.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 2:17 pm

          In other words you really don't have the faintest idea about Mrs Goudies's qualifications.

          When you say "those who have no record" you are simply announcing that you don't know. Oh well, I suppose I can suggest that "Pete" has no idea about anything because as far as I know he dropped out of school at the minimum possible age and only knows the basics of reading and writing?

          • Pete 3.2.1.1.1
            20 October 2021 at 6:17 pm

            All I know about Mrs Goudie's qualifications is what has been in the media.

            You can suggest "Pete" has no idea about anything" all you want. You'd be wrong of course because I have an idea that she doesn't have science, microbiology, immunology or epidemiology qualifications of significance.

            I also have an idea that if she did have such qualifications she would have let us know.

            (Thanks for thinking I made it to the minimum age and I wasn't one of those special cases who was 'let go' early.)

      • McFlock 3.2.2
        20 October 2021 at 2:26 pm

        later doing university papers by correspondence

        Does that mean failing a few marketing papers, or getting an advanced degree in rocket science, I wonder?

        Not sure that she comes across on camera as much of a rocket scientist.

        • alwyn 3.2.2.1
          20 October 2021 at 2:54 pm

          I suggest you ask Stuff. They wrote the sentence. On the other hand getting any sense out of that organisation is well-nigh impossible.

          I have met a couple of rocket scientists in my time. Well they were actually engineers who had worked as programmers for NASA back in the Apollo days although when I knew them they were no longer there. They were really no different to anyone else.

          • McFlock 3.2.2.1.1
            20 October 2021 at 3:00 pm

            Well, they were a bit more qualified than school cert and some correspondence papers, I'd suggest.

            • Macro 3.2.2.1.1.1
              20 October 2021 at 5:14 pm

              My cousin was a scientific leader at Scott base in the 60's. He was an Associate Member of the NZ Royal Society and published several papers on his developments in radar. and other scientific work including microwave ovens for milk biscuits! He had failed School Certificate because he was dyslexic and unable to gain sufficient marks in English. My task was to proof read his work before it was sent off for publication.

              He had no formal academic qualifications at all. Just because someone doesn't have SC doesn't necessarily mean that they are brainless.

              • McFlock …
                20 October 2021 at 9:02 pm

                Yeah, but did he work for years in his field literally doing his own research?

                Or did he just feel he knew radar better than the research community in that field, like the esteemed mayor seems to do?

                • Macro …
                  20 October 2021 at 9:19 pm

                  Actually he knew radar better than most in that field – he developed a radar capable of counting the number of beats of a bees wing in the 50's. Scientists from around the world wrote to him as Dr … lol not realising he had no academic qualifications . They used the technology to help track migrating insects in Canada. He was the first to measure the speed of a cricket ball bowled by "Typhon" Tyson at the Basin Reserve* when the MCC cricket team visited NZ. That technology was later used by the traffic police as well as common place in TV sports broadcasts. It was the ability to track very small fast moving objects that was the break through.

                  * The ball was mounted on plinth as a trophy and had pride of place on the mantle piece.

      • Paul Campbell 3.2.3
        20 October 2021 at 4:33 pm

        It was also common at the time for maybe half of teenagers to leave highschool at 15-16 (during or end of 5th form), we used to have whole schools just for warehousing them and teaching them non-academic skills (Queens High School was a more 'academically' focused school aimed at people going to Uni).

        Polytechs used to be more trade schools for these kids, with remedial HS maths/english, often taught at nights by the same teachers they'd had in high school (I taught a computer course at Polytech in the 70s, my old HS teachers were teaching in the rooms next to me)

    • Treetop 3.3
      20 October 2021 at 11:51 am

      Time to have a health ministry register for people who will not vaccinate, people who cannot vaccinate I would exclude them.

      The reason for not vaccinating will need to be considered and if no alternative is available then put them on the register. If a person will not disclose if they have been vaccinated, give them 7 days to comply and if still no verification put them on the register.

  4. roblogic 4
    20 October 2021 at 10:03 am

    True. We have so much positivity about getting the jab. There should also be a scare campaign to remind people of the horrors of catching Covid, and if you survive, the impact on your life.

    https://twitter.com/toastfloats/status/1445237131362766849?s=20

    https://www.dailykos.com/tags/Antivaxxchronicles

  5. bwaghorn 5
    20 October 2021 at 10:33 am

    No jab no job,

    Why not no jab no benefit

    • Foreign Waka 5.1
      20 October 2021 at 12:30 pm

      No jab no existence? Are we changing NZ humanitarian outlook?

      The only way is self responsibility. Everybody had and has access, so there is no inequality at all. If someone chooses not to vaccinate, all good. But they also have to live with the consequences.

      Health Services should have the same % of ICU beds as the total of non vaccinated people. i.e. 15% unvaccinated, 200 beds available total, 30 beds for covid. If you run out, bad luck. Equality does not mean that someone has to carry someone else's can. This is in my book a clear cut equation. Equitable to everybody regardless of age, color, race, left or right handed… etc.

      • Treetop 5.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 1:37 pm

        Unless there is a do not resuscitate on a patients medical notes, everything that can be done for a patient vaccinated or unvaccinated applies.

        The trend for those requiring an ICU bed will be the unvaccinated.

        There always has been inequality in the health system and the health system now has to deal with unvaccinated people who will cause inequality for vaccinated people when it comes to an ICU bed.

    • Tiger Mountain 5.2
      20 October 2021 at 4:58 pm

      This country has seen more than enough “Bennie Bashing”.

      Jab–increased payments…

      • bwaghorn 5.2.1
        20 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

        That's my preference but someone had to say it. I've got a p addict nephew that sticks p ,weed ,tobacco and lots of booze in his body but wont get a jab because he doesn't want them sticking god knows what in his body!!!?? A couple a hundy might just change his mind.

  6. tc 6
    20 October 2021 at 10:34 am

    Agreed and some of that ugly needs to be dished up at the media who thoroughly deserve it.

    Soapboxes for goudie, key, slater smears etc it’s a fn joke.

  7. Adrian 7
    20 October 2021 at 10:53 am

    And we jailed people who hit their kids, how about the same for threatening to give them Covid.
    It’s time. Let’s Do This.

  8. Castro 8
    20 October 2021 at 11:05 am

    "We" don't do it for people who feel the need to have more than one house while so many have none. crickets chirping

    • roblogic 8.1
      20 October 2021 at 11:28 am

      At the moment home ownership is the lowest in history. If it dips below 50% the shit will start really flying. Government is still taking half measures in order to save capitalism. But the problem is capitalism itself

      • Tricledrown 8.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 1:01 pm

        Roblogic so what are you going to replace it with.

        No other system has worked better other than capitalism with higher taxes providing more govt services which no one wants to vote for.

        • roblogic 8.1.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 1:39 pm

          Social democracy with a few heavily regulated free market features. Nationalise all banking and all privately held land. A communal ownership model worked pretty well for Maori society.

          Capitalism is not the same as an industrial revolution. China lifted millions out of poverty by a programme of massive socialist reforms. Marx admitted that free market capitalism enables a race to produce lots of goods, but saw that eventually it burns out.

          We are in the burn-out phase. The world is on fire thanks to capitalism. We need a better way

          • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.1.1
            20 October 2021 at 4:08 pm

            We are in the burn-out phase. The world is on fire thanks to capitalism. We need a better way

            I have been expecting the Green movement to provide that ever since I joined it in '68 but few in the movement even try to co-create it.

            Ain't hard to see how: a balance of competition & collaboration. To that principle one would need to add other essential ingredients like stakeholder theory, true-cost accounting, permaculture, etc. Then bake the cake.

          • Tricledrown 8.1.1.1.2
            21 October 2021 at 9:35 am

            Human Nature has proven that doesn't work.Natures rewards greed ie Natural Selection the strongest survive take the most resources.

            Tell me a country that has adapted your philosophy. Its wishful dreaming ,futility. Looking at NZ voting trends less than 1,000 people vote pure socialism,the next best option the Greens 8% .90% vote for the existing system.

            So where and how are you going to change that.

    • Ad 8.2
      20 October 2021 at 1:07 pm

      86% of us already have.

      From your crickets chirping, one pretends silence is golden.

      Sometimes it's just plain yellow.

      • Castro 8.2.1
        20 October 2021 at 1:54 pm

        So you spit on 'mum and dad' property investors in the street whenever you get the chance, do you? Cut off all ties with anyone with more than one property and tell them to fuck off and die, do you? Maybe. But I'd say it's bullshit, along with your 86% claim. crickets chirping

        • Ad 8.2.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 2:26 pm

          The people who are getting vaccinated include the disabled, homeless, renters, elderly, gang members, prostitutes, drug addicts, and everyone else in that 85.4% and rising every day.

  9. Reality 9
    20 October 2021 at 1:19 pm

    Get the impression Sandra Goudie is relishing her notoriety. From pretty well a nonentity, hey she is known all over the country now.

    • Ad 9.1
      20 October 2021 at 1:33 pm

      Ah what becomes of the fallen who want just one more come-back special.

      She needs to pluck that one-note-wonder tune for a good slot on the Act list.

      Never easy going from the $160k backbencher salary to the minor-sawgrass-cowpattie-town-mayor earning under $90 that she'll be on now.

      • bwaghorn 9.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 3:08 pm

        I'm rural , apart from a few days in the lead up to the first lockup I've felt safe, now I'm starting to genuinely worry,and given I'm made up of 90% she'll be right, that is a real worry,

  10. Cricklewood 10
    20 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

    Yeah state mandated vaccination gets a big no from me… just a step to far imo where do we stop with it? Should we mandate other types of health care? Everyone must take a 6 monthly medical? If you're overweight lose access to service till you fit within a certain criteria? Not allow processed food?

    How bout we actually get another vax in might just mop up another percentage point as well.

    End of the day everyone is able to make an informed decision, and some will get a nasty suprise… and yes it will put a strain on the health system etc but thats true of so many things people to themselves and others.

    Given Maori are at the bottom end of Vax stats I'd bet any mandate that disproportionately effects Maori will end up with the Waitangi tribunal quick smart.

    Not to mention it creates another class of peoe excluded from society with zero trust in govt and I'll bet long term thats far more damaging.

    • Ad 10.1
      20 October 2021 at 2:30 pm

      Maori are already the target of most of our longstanding social media campaigns.

      • Cricklewood 10.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 3:10 pm

        Maybe thats the problem…

        • miravox 10.1.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 3:33 pm

          Maybe thats the problem…

          Yup it's not even a fine line between representation and blame.

          • Ad 10.1.1.1.1
            20 October 2021 at 4:15 pm

            That's the essence of social marketing campaigns.

            Greta Thuneberg will have converted about zero people with her tuneless scolding rants.

            But if you can remember the jingle "Come on now don't live behind a cloud", you'll be remembering a time where smokers were over 20% of the population. That campaign focused on social exclusion.

            The field is wide open for a new ribbon, a march, a "day", a mascot.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 10.2
      20 October 2021 at 9:50 pm

      How bout we actually get another vax in might just mop up another percentage point as well.

      Yes, might give at least a few of the hesitant a way to save face, as in 'I was always happy to get vaccinated – just didn't want one of those 'experimental' mRNA vaccines.'

      Some people feeling backed into a corner will opt for a well-crafted escape route.

    • SPC 10.3
      20 October 2021 at 10:00 pm

      Getting the A-Z antibody cocktail here is an alternative for the anti-vaxxers.

      It's better than the mono clonal anti-body treatment used in the USA as its in place prior to infection (it lasts up 6 months) – it should reduce hospitalisations, not so much spread though.

  11. Patricia Bremner 11
    20 October 2021 at 2:10 pm

    Just need to do what was done in other campaigns. Turn it on its head.

    The "smoke free work place" made me examine my habits addiction and values. I changed.

    We need to change the message from "Get vaccinated" to

    "Be a Lifesaver" "Have more Freedom" "Get back to life' soon 68%/90% of us will! and "Where will you be?" with suitable visuals of ICU.

    • Ad 11.1
      20 October 2021 at 2:28 pm

      The ads on Youtube are focused on young people being able to attend concerts again. It's a pretty narrow focus compared to the ACC ads currently on, for example.

    • miravox 11.2
      20 October 2021 at 5:29 pm

      Research tends to agree with you I think. In relation to US states' failed incentive programmes, along with tackling the usual barriers to healthcare and misinformation peddlers

      Convincing vaccine holdouts to think of immunization as critical to their core identity is key, he said. Broader vaccination calls for messaging tailored for specific communities and delivered by trusted members “in a language that they use.”

      … From a psychology perspective, Holyoak said research indicates that “for an issue people view as moral, incentives don’t work well and backfire,” and that negotiating with people to get vaccinated using another issue they view as moral, like community benefit or keeping their kids healthy, is more likely to have an impact.

  12. higherstandard 12
    20 October 2021 at 2:25 pm

    I have some tendencies towards authoritarianism but find both the post and more so a number of the comments quite disturbing.

    • Ad 12.1
      20 October 2021 at 2:29 pm

      Every population segment is a market.

      It's getting easier to define that segment by the day in this case.

      • higherstandard 12.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 3:05 pm

        Well I think you should reflect on your list

        We do it for our multi-decade anti-smoking campaigns with gooey glee.

        We do it for our anti drink-driving campaigns with skull-smashing shock.

        We do it for our anti drug-driving and anti-drug campaigns with both fun and shame.

        We do it for people imagining they would do any high risk activity needing ACC.

        We do it for anti domestic violence campaigns without breaking a sweat.

        We do it for anti-suicide campaigns in harrowing detail.

        ..and ask how successful have these campaigns been and how long have they been running

        I also take issue with your tongue in cheek comment

        Our hospitals have a very high chance that you will become worse interacting with them.

        • roblogic 12.1.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 3:44 pm

          Obviously they have an effect. YMMV.

          If you think taking basic safety measures is "authoritarian" good luck ever travelling on a plane, getting a drivers license, or crossing a road.

          We live in a society, not a libertarian utopia where we can piss on other people without consequence.

        • Ad 12.1.1.2
          20 October 2021 at 4:26 pm
          • The anti-smoking campaign began when we were over 22% smokers. Now it's 11.6%.
          • The road-safety videos started when we were into 600+ deaths per year and about half less total kilometers travelled. It's bucked up over the last two years, but still better than it was by a huge margin. Ten years ago there were 2.6m vehicles here, now it's 4 million and rising.
          • Alcohol is our most damaging drug, and both binge use and alcohol-related injury has plummeted in the last decade.
          • Weekly illicit drug use has fallen. Particularly since the 2016 Worksafe legislation and the compulsory testing that came in.

          And so on. All you have to do is the most minimal ten minutes on MoH, Te Ara and Statistics sites to figure this out. Lots of causal factors, of which long range social marketing campaigns are one.

          Stop being a lazy commentator.

          • higherstandard 12.1.1.2.1
            20 October 2021 at 4:39 pm

            The antismoking campaign continued for years whether it had any effect over and above the effect of banning smoking at indoor venues and the excise increases on cigarettes is debatable.

            Same thing with your other examples – none of these interventions will have a noticeable effect on vaccination rates over the next couple of months which is where the effect needs to occur.

            I could sympathize if you've directly involved with/health promotion for the government and are touting your wares but I'm unconvinced you've thought this through.

            What do you think will work to get the remaining people over the line over and above what has been tried to date.

            Personally I haven't seen vilification and shaming work very well in the health system over the years,

            • GreenBus 12.1.1.2.1.1
              20 October 2021 at 10:10 pm

              The PRICE of ciggy's is criminally expensive and a big motivator to give up for the kiwi battlers, that and the social status of a Lepper IMO.

    • roblogic 12.2
      20 October 2021 at 2:41 pm

      The tendency to ignore the suffering in Auckland under endless lockdowns is a large blind spot from the rest of the country. As if locking down our largest city isn't already a power move. Vaccine mandates are relatively light in comparison to putting 1.8 million people under house arrest for 10 weeks.

      FFS

    • Cricklewood 12.3
      20 October 2021 at 3:07 pm

      Authoritarian left on full display

      • roblogic 12.3.1
        20 October 2021 at 3:49 pm

        RWNJ bullshit.

        Did you say that when John Key fenced off Christchurch and deployed the Army to stop people rescuing priceless things from the mess? When King Gerry sent in the bulldozers to demolish anything left standing, even if it was assessed to be safe? Or when the Gnats were beating the war drums and wanted to join the debacle in Iraq?

    • miravox 12.4
      20 October 2021 at 4:18 pm

      Maybe some commenters today could check and see if they agree with their image of themselves?

      https://www.politicalcompass.org/

      • Ad 12.4.1
        20 October 2021 at 4:30 pm

        Or maybe they just do actual thinking.

        • miravox 12.4.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 4:52 pm

          Some might be interested in how differently they feel about this issue, compared to how they feel about other issues. That's all I was suggesting.

          Don't get me wrong – I'm desperate for people to be vaccinated. With being immune-suppressed I have a lot to lose if they don't – friends, seeing family, going outdoors, independence, health. I just haven't ever believed punishing people for wrong-headed beliefs ever worked better in the long run than understanding why they feel the way they do and using an educational approach to persuade them – even if that approach requires a huge effort.

          However I don't feel that way about people who are deliberately sowing the seeds of distrust – thriving on the power and money of it all. That's were the policing and sanctions should sit, imo.

        • GreenBus 12.4.1.2
          20 October 2021 at 10:14 pm

          ..and some could be less critical. Grumpy people everywhere.

  13. Brendan 13
    20 October 2021 at 2:58 pm

    Agree Agree Agree.

    No jab no job – unless you work alone.

    No jab no vaccine passport.

    It is time to make clear that persons who will not be vacinated will have to live with their actions.

    Now will the govt change their tune?

    • Cricklewood 13.1
      20 October 2021 at 3:55 pm

      Sure make them live with their actions and society at large can pay when they are excluded and end up in the justice system or perhaps lose their shit and do sonething really harmful to others…

      It amazes me how quickly some the people who call themselves left default to authoritarianism… hell, if the political spectrum was a clock are 11pm and Act 1am… unfuckingreal

  14. Stuart Munro 14
    20 October 2021 at 3:51 pm

    Well I grew up on tv programs like Daktari, where 90% of problems were resolved peacefully – [deleted]

    Not sure the govt. will be game however – they're awful brave about dodgy gender theory, and some dreadful property speculator wet dream of high rise slums, but simple public health measures seem to frighten them.

    [don’t make comments that advocate violence against groups of people, even if you are joking – weka]

    • weka 14.1
      20 October 2021 at 4:05 pm

      mod note

    • Robert Guyton 14.2
      20 October 2021 at 4:32 pm

      Clarence was a cross-eyed lion, right? Is that the point you're making?

      • Stuart Munro 14.2.1
        20 October 2021 at 5:21 pm

        It has more to do with the seriousness the antivaxxers are wont to cloak themselves in with their "I got rights" spiel – I don't choose to take them seriously, unless they're immune compromised. If they are ridiculed as sport, they'll lose the power to sway as many as they have been, and they are, frankly, a public menace. [deleted]

        [just stop – weka]

        • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 5:29 pm

          Tempting, isn't it! Not a great strategy though, if you plan to move the weight of support your way 🙂

          • Stuart Munro 14.2.1.1.1
            20 October 2021 at 5:56 pm

            The weight of support is nothing I have much confidence in, Robert – I spent decades trying to get it through the thick heads of Labour that the suicides of my colleagues correlated with their corrupt approval of slave ships. Middle class notions of propriety have a lot of work to do to regain my trust.

        • weka 14.2.1.2
          20 October 2021 at 5:30 pm

          mod note.

          • Stuart Munro 14.2.1.2.1
            20 October 2021 at 7:48 pm

            Neither paintball, nor vaccination are forms of violence.

            This being so, you need not have censored me, especially given that you were able to recognize that the suggestion was not entirely serious.

            I am losing patience with the willful antivax element, and I am by no means exceptionally volatile.

            [Your comments weren’t in any way benign. Three day ban for wasting moderator time and not accepting a moderator note on violating site policy. You’ve been here long enough to know where the boundaries are.

            If you advocate violence on TS you will get banned. Nothing to do with who you aim that at, it’s a blanket policy.

            From the Policy (at the top of every page),

            Directly or indirectly advocating violence in any shape or form (including ‘jest’ and advocating self-harm) to individuals or groups is simply not allowed. Moderators will have a no-tolerance humourless response as the only possible response. If you want to talk about political conflicts around the world, then do so being mindful of this proscription.

            • weka]

  15. Andre 15
    20 October 2021 at 7:01 pm

    It's not a team of 5 million when the government is caving in and pandering to the feels and reckons of half a million moronic antisocial assholes to put 1.8 million of us into forced home detention with day release for work, just a small step short of prison.

    • joe90 15.1
      20 October 2021 at 7:21 pm

      half a million moronic antisocial assholes

      Funny how so much of the pissing and moaning about vaccines and vaccine mandates is coming from those with well paying careers that they risk by refusing to be vaccinated.

      • Andre 15.1.1
        20 October 2021 at 7:26 pm

        Especially by those in careers where they claim to be providing "healthcare" and "education".

        Fuck, if that's their level of cognitive function, we're collectively better off without them screwing up healthcare and education. Even if it adds a bit of short-term stress to fill the gaps.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.1.1
          20 October 2021 at 9:18 pm

          I found this extract from a FB page somewhere, possibly on sorryantivaxxer.com and posted it on another MB.

          It 'speaks' directly to your point Andre about health care and education. That people employed in those fields, especially health, could be anti vaxx has been an eye-opener to me.

          https://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/1626073833.jpg

          For public facing jobs I feel there is a responsibility to have staff vaccinated. For other areas I am not sure. I support vaccine passports. I do not see the need to mandate beneficiaries having the vaccination though having clinics open near places that people visit like WINZ/supermarkets could be useful.

  16. RedLogix 16
    21 October 2021 at 1:29 am

    Authoritarianism – fully half the people in the world live under a regime where you cannot criticise their rulers. Worth contemplating in light of COVID and it's impact on our lives:

  17. Jenny how to get there 17
    21 October 2021 at 6:20 am

    Time to get ugly/

    The antivaxxers have no hesitation in getting ugly.

    Appalling behaviour from an antivaxxer midwife.

    Ok so she didn't want to be vaccinated.
    But instead of notifying her employer, so that they could arrange a replacement, sends off a moaning email to the pregnant woman in her care, writing she would rather leave her job than get vaccinated. Opportunisticly trying elicit support for her stance from the woman in her care, expecting her to be sympathetic and side with her against the health experts and government and her employer.

    The email, seen by 1News, tells the expectant mum she was sorry but wanted freedom of choice.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/20/pregnant-canterbury-mum-frustrated-after-midwife-refuses-govts-vaccine-mandate/

    Talk about uncaring. But it is the sort of behaviour we have come to expect from these fanatics.

    How many other expectant mothers are under this midwife's care?

    And did they receive the same email?

    I'm getting very tired of these people

    • RedLogix 17.1
      21 October 2021 at 7:15 am

      My family has a long multigenerational connection with midwifery, and in general I respect these people and the unique work they do enormously. Both my children were born at home.

      This woman's stance aligns with my experience of midwives – and that's just how it is. This vilification and othering of those whose conscience and beliefs lead them to refuse vaccines – misguided or not – will take us nowhere good.

  18. Adrian 18
    21 October 2021 at 9:29 am

    Was this midwife administering the Vitamin K injection at birth to prevent bleeding or is she failing in this duty of care as well? Maybe she is better off well away from any medical cares.

    • Tricledrown 18.1
      21 October 2021 at 10:08 am

      Considering 1/3 of ICU beds in the UK are being used by unvaccinated pregnant mothers with Covid 19 and they require huge resources because of the number of complications .

      Mid wives who won't vaccinate are putting an unnecessary burden on our health system.

      Bring in overseas mid wives urgently through MIQ.

      It's fine if you don't want to vaccinate but don't expect that you can put others at risk.

      Where are they getting their information from let's have a survey.Find out and see if some of those can see reason before they are stood down.

      I wouldn't want an anti science midwife near any of my children's birth.

      In fact I have dropped all my non, won't vax friends I don't want them to pass covid on to my family or anyone else.

      Tough it's their decision not to vax their consequences.Most think their immune system is so good because they take fresh herbs and are fit and healthy. Looking at the number of Shock jocks in the US that have died because of their antivax stance should be a wake up call.Nick Cavuto the Fox commentator is saying he wouldn't be alive if not for 2 doses with his underlying conditions even Trump has admitted that after having covid he still got 2 doses but stopped telling people at his rallies after getting booed by his redneck supporters.Fox it's self wants all employees to explain their vax status.Facebook tictok,twitter etc all social media platforms should not be allowed to publish any unscientific vax information.

  19. Maurice 19
    21 October 2021 at 9:40 am

    So much Covid – So little Kindness …

    A little Kipling may be appropriate?

    As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    ……..

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

    …….

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    Is it 1938 all over again?

  20. Tricledrown 20
    21 October 2021 at 10:14 am

    Sometimes you have to be a little cruel to be kind.passing and potentially deadly disease around is not being kind.

  21. Jenny how to get there 21
    22 October 2021 at 12:36 am

    Get ugly?

    Anti-vaxxers have no hestitation at all in getting ugly.

    Cruel and vicious anti-vaxxers give false names and phone numbers to make fake bookings to stop people getting vaccinated, wasting vaccine which has a short shelf life after being defrosted and if not used has to disgarded.

    Anti-vaxxers making fake vaccination bookings

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/21/anti-vaxxers-making-fake-vaccination-bookings/

  22. Ross 22
    22 October 2021 at 6:38 am

    Now it’s time to get ugly on the rest.

    Or you could listen to them.

    Over at http://www.fyi.org.nz you will see a lot of questions directed at the Health Ministry and related agencies. Some people are waiting 20 working days before they receive an inadequate answer. Some are waiting longer than 20 working days. It shouldn’t take that long to receive important information.

    I could be completely wrong but I imagine some of the unvaccinated are wondering why information is so hard to come by. For instance do we have the same contract with Pfizer, apart from perhaps price, as Albania? Their contract apparently states that the purchaser “acknowledges that the long-terms effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known”. The contract is dated 1 June 2021, months after rollout of the vaccine began here.

    How many vaccinated people received the above information before they made the decision to become vaccinated? Of course, the larger problem is that if people are not trusted to make the “correct” decision after receiving such information, is there other information they are not being trusted with?

    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20616251-albanian-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-contract

    • miravox 22.1
      22 October 2021 at 8:26 am

      Their contract apparently states that the purchaser “acknowledges that the long-terms effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known.

      Reads like a standard disclaimer to me. Maybe get a lawyer to interpret it? similar to how the Stuff interactive on vaccines have interpreted clinical language about vaccines for the general public. E.g.

      Vaccinologist Helen Petousis-Harris says it’s important to remember that every vaccine is new when it is introduced. There is never 10 years’ worth of data to rely on when a new vaccine is developed, because it hasn’t been widely used until then.

      Vaccine history shows there are “no effects that suddenly spring up years and years down the track”, Petousis-Harris says. This has not happened with any vaccine, and there is no mechanism for this to happen: the vaccine itself is gone from the body within hours to days – what you’re left with is the immune response.

      If you are going to experience an adverse event following vaccination, most will occur within the first week, and up to six to eight weeks later.

      So why does the research continue for so long after the vaccines are already in use? Part of the reason is for that population-wide monitoring we talked about earlier, but there are other long-term trends that are very important to collect data on: the most crucial being how effective the vaccine remains months or years down the track. This is standard practice for all vaccines.

      It is also important to note that we do have long-term data on Covid-19 vaccines, and a lot of it…

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