I want that left wing bastard gone

279 comments on “I want that left wing bastard gone ”

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1. tinfoilhat 1

   13 April 2015 at 4:14 pm

   🙄
   • Once was Tim 1.1

     13 April 2015 at 11:04 pm

     That’s not actually a look of surprise is it?

     If it is then I take it you’ve not encountered many ‘Masters of the Universe’ (those who’re usually of average intelligence but equipped with animal cunning [shithouse rats and drainpipes spring to mind]; who’ve learned the spin lingo – or shud I say they’ve had “learnings”; and whose animal survival instinct has been particularly successful in an environment where there’s a laid-back [“she’ll be right”] attitude whisch is fucking easy and ripe for fascist intent.
     Roll the dice …. ya get what you deserve. It’s just that all those various minorities (that a functioning democracy is supposed to be sympathetic to) take the burdom.

     …..The Band …… “the Weight”

     Nazareth is soon to be the best NuZull can hope for (Christ Almighty … and John Key is a Jew …. yea well Mex Key’s a D-d-d-d-JAY)
   • quinnjin 1.2

     14 April 2015 at 10:38 pm

     Tin Foil Hat? You mean the one worn by idiots who believe John keys BS and vote national? Yes I agree, they’re all right wing nut jobs. We know John Key is a lying corrupt scum bag, who has it in for decent journalists and anyone who isn’t his pet bum boy like Mike “SkyCitySponsored” Hoskings, and Paul “ShitforBreakfast” Henry. That’s a matter of historical record.
     We know Keys privileged relationship track record with media works and that companies obvious right wing pro national bias.
     So this is in fact entirely believable.
     No tin foil hat required. Whether its true, or verifiable, is another matter obviously.
2. Anne 2

   13 April 2015 at 4:28 pm

   There’s no doubting a set of circumstances was used by a bunch of Key/Joyce acolytes as an excuse to get rid of Campbell. Nonetheless if you’re going to publicly make such a claim then you have to provide something that would count as evidence otherwise you play into the enemy’s hands.

   A few weeks ago Kim Dotcom made a claim that a bunch of SIS staffers were planning to set up some sort of honey trap for him using one of their female agents. He claimed it was revealed in an OIA’d document his lawyer acquired. He went on to say he had since received an apology from the SIS Director, Rebecca Kitteridge. Unless he was prepared to release the evidence proving it’s authenticity, he should have kept his mouth shut.
   • Rob 2.1

     13 April 2015 at 4:30 pm

     Jeez, imagine the poor soul who was to be ‘pimped out’ as the bait.
     • rawshark-yeshe 2.1.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:34 pm

       @Rob .. unnecessarily ugly of you, don’t you think ? or just simply vile and mean ?

       jeez is right.
     • Not Arandar 2.1.2

       13 April 2015 at 6:38 pm

       Are you saying Pam Corkery is an SIS plant?

       [There is a glitch. This comment was not made by Arandar] – Bill

       [lprent: someone hijacking a email address. Adding to permanent bans. By the look of it some kind of arsehole from Lauda Finem astroturfing a post]
       • Once was Tim 2.1.2.1

         13 April 2015 at 11:45 pm

         She could be lol – my cuzzie was an SIS agent not so very long ago – I suspect turfed out because of his alcoholism – but – parse the parcel and what plays in Vegas stays in Vegas and all that kaka. That’s of course until there’s a player who prioritises the blood is thicker than water routine.
         I’m almost sure the SIS and GCSB have an overpaid ‘risk manager’ who is on “the case”. (incidentally – s0 too the Polis)
         Wouldn’t be too dissimilar though would it to the number of our ‘honourable poltishuns” whose various indiscretions are kept from public media.

         If Pam Corkery is a plant – her ex Phil would have been arrested many many moons ago (rather than some hard done-by Kapiti Coast ???? with a shitload on its political rep); Simon Wilson wouldn’t be editor of metro, and half of the Onslow College ilk of the day would be watching their backs and considering various claims of abuse.
         (I suppose the upside is, half of them were able to walk those glorious polishied concrete floors in the archtecturally twee Burma Road mansion that “the Si” once graced.)
         I stand in awe – actually I lay down and have a gigantic sleep in awe.
   • tinfoilhat 2.2

     13 April 2015 at 4:32 pm

     @ anne …yes if he and his gathering of sycophants and various hangers on had kept their mouths shut over the last couple of years we might now have a Green/Labour government !
     • Anne 2.2.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:46 pm

       Hang on tfh who is “he”? If you’re referring to John Campbell then you don’t know what you’re talking about. Its Campbell Live’s job to ferret out corruption, incompetency and poor governance be it government, local bodies or the private sector.
       • tinfoilhat 2.2.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 5:33 pm

         Dotcom……why on earth would anyone expect John Campbell to keep his mouth shut ?
         • Anne 2.2.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 5:45 pm

           Oh I see tfh, that makes more sense. Sorry about that, but you didn’t make yourself very clear.
   • James 2.3

     13 April 2015 at 4:41 pm

     Kim Dotcom makes a lot of claims – Last time he released “evidence” at the moment of truth it didn’t exactly stand up to scrutiny.
     • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1

       13 April 2015 at 5:04 pm

       It successfully exposed NZ’s complicity and role in the FVEY surveillance network. It didn’t do much to lay a specific finger on John Key though, even though Key is a central figure with knowledge of what NZ is committed to.
       • Richard Christie 2.3.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 6:51 pm

         What happened to the email DC presented? Did it not go to a parliamentary committee or something?
         Or are we all just to accept it was faked on the say so of Key and a Hollywood exec ?
         • McFlock 2.3.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 8:19 pm

           damn, it’s almost as if we need a government agency that independently archives everyone’s emails so we can confirm veracity in situations such as this 🙂
         • Lanthanide 2.3.1.1.2

           13 April 2015 at 9:21 pm

           They tried to present it to the speaker to go to the privileges committee, but it had dissolved because of the election.

           Nothing happened after that, presumably because Mana / IP didn’t get back into Parliament, and none of the other parties were stupid enough to raise it after that.

           I read somewhere recently (maybe a comment here?) that the letter supposedly came from The Herald, and that what was published on the day was all they had – a screenshot of the supposed text, but none of the metadata that would be required to back it up.
       • Chooky 2.3.1.2

         13 April 2015 at 10:16 pm

         +100 CR….and John Campbell did much to show up Key

         …this is why I believe Joe Trinder…because Campbell is the only television msm NZ journalist with the guts to expose Key’s lies

         …. the writing was probably on the wall for Campbell when he did that investigative journalism series into the lies and deceptions and timelines on John Key’s meetings with US spy masters and others with vested interests in spying on New Zealanders…..also exposed his appointment of his friend Fletcher as head of the GCSB

         http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/05/20/campbell-live-review-extraordinary-new-gcsb-revelations/

         …all the more reason why the Campbell Live Show should remain…it is a quintessential NZ programme with unflinching investigative journalism on the big issues facing New Zealand eg. TPPA and Zero contracts ….and smaller items of individual justice and interest (eg. it includes solo parents, children , surfing grannies, animals like kittens and chooks)

         If Campbell is not around to examine the big issues facing New Zealand and New Zealanders….and if necessary investigate Key on television…. who is?..we no longer have the television guardians of democracy
     • Murray Rawshark 2.3.2

       13 April 2015 at 7:39 pm

       We no longer have a society where evidence is put under scrutiny. We have a society where FJK says “the witness is a known lefty conspiracy theorist”, some lefties add “and he’s a misogynist”, three vegans say “eating meat is disgusting” and the evidence is forgotten. Due to a compliant media and an undemanding electorate, Dotcom’s evidence was never scrutinised.

       That is not to say it couldn’t have been presented in a more effective manner.
       • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.2.1

         13 April 2015 at 7:49 pm

         Casting pearls before swine.
       • veutoviper 2.3.2.2

         14 April 2015 at 7:20 am

         Well put, Murray.

         Great to see you back, kia kaha. Some people are full of their own self-importance (not you!); but enough said.

         [Totally off topic, but wondered whether next Monday you would be in the vicinity of the MoJ building you visited on 19 February, where you saw a ‘famous person’. According to this NBR article on 19 March, remand was extended until 20 April – which usually means the date of the next scheduled court hearing ….

         http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/prominent-new-zealander-name-suppression-extended-vy-170285 ]
         • Murray Rawshark 2.3.2.2.1

           14 April 2015 at 11:30 am

           Thanks veuto. Unfortunately I will not be in Whangarei next Monday. I have my monthly hospital appointment in Brisbane.
           • veutoviper 2.3.2.2.1.1

             14 April 2015 at 1:49 pm

             Though I would mention next Monday as a possibility …. Will keep a close check on certain journalists’ Twitter feeds – those who appear to be the ones attending certain court hearings, including Victoria Young of NBR – and report here on TS if I hear anything. (Provided I don’t get banned in the meantime. My anger on a certain Sunday morning a few weeks ago was such that I had to hold back from commenting here for quite some time – and not comment on a certain subject/person as I would not have held back and would most certainly have been banned.)

             On your monthly trips to Brisbane, don’t want to ask details but all the very best. I have family in Brisbane, some of whom have worked in various specialist (eg cancer) hospitals there and others who have had treatment in these, and I know that they are very good. Way better than here. So I am really pleased that you are able to get there. Again, kia kaha.
             • Murray Rawshark …

               14 April 2015 at 2:04 pm

               Thanks. My clinic is just routine. I had a liver transplant last year and get looked at once a month. No real problems so far. As you say, healthcare in the Brisbane public hospitals is very good. It was put in place by people like us, fighting for a better world, and has not yet been attacked and dismantled as much as in Aotearoa. Governments would love to, but Australians are very attached to their medical system.
               • rawshark-yeshe …

                 14 April 2015 at 3:37 pm

                 @murray .. travel well and stay safe .. we have great need of you and your insightful (and sometimes inciteful) posts ! 😀
                 • Murray Rawshark …

                   14 April 2015 at 5:20 pm

                   Thanks. I don’t actually mean to be inciteful but one of my colleagues once suggested that if I developed Tourette’s, nobody would notice. My approach fits well with my profession as a physicist, where we ruthlessly criticise each other’s work, with very few taking it personally. Politics is much harder and more complex.
   • Karen 2.4

     13 April 2015 at 4:43 pm

     +1 Anne
     This sort of unsubstantiated claim does a lot of damage to the left.
     • weka 2.4.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:51 pm

       I was also disappointed by KDC’s claim and then nothing. Would love to know if he gets PR advice or its all down to him.
     • fisiani 2.4.2

       14 April 2015 at 4:09 pm

       the Left just constantly make up shit in order to cry wolf to scare the people. The people know it’s just shit so ignore it.
       A Mana spokesman said Blah Blah Blah…..
   • Clemgeopin 2.5

     13 April 2015 at 4:44 pm

     “He went on to say he had since received an apology from the SIS Director, Rebecca Kitteridge”

     Do you have a link? I haven’t read that claim. If the report is true, a journalist should ask Rebecca Kitteridge about it.
     • Anne 2.5.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:49 pm

       It was a twitter comment I saw somewhere online. I don’t do twitter so would have no idea how to retrieve it. I’m sure I read it correctly because I was taken aback by the claim and had doubts about it’s veracity.
     • freedom 2.5.2

       13 April 2015 at 8:40 pm

       I think this might be the comment Anne is referring to
       http://i.imgur.com/PWjgm41.jpg
       • Clemgeopin 2.5.2.1

         13 April 2015 at 10:15 pm

         Thanks freedom.

         Those statements by the spies are so disgusting. These are the types of bastards that are in charge of our intelligence/security agencies!

         It is good on the SIS chief (Rebecca Kitteridge ?) to have sent Kim Dot Com an apology letter on behalf of those despicable people. But that is not enough. She should sack all those in her spy agency who were part of that evil/disgraceful/criminal conversation. Has she sacked them or jailed them? Where the hell are our MPs and journalists not to have demanded more information and action from her and the government?
         • Anne 2.5.2.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 11:01 pm

           Problem is Clemgeopin he didn’t put up any evidence and until he does no-one is going to touch it with a barge pole. Setting aside the idiot rwnjs on this site who make irrational demands for evidence on mere opinions, you can’t make claims of this nature without producing something to back it up. Dotcom has not done so.
           • Clemgeopin 2.5.2.1.1.1

             13 April 2015 at 11:09 pm

             True Anne, but I suspect that as KDC is primarily fighting a very serious legal battle, he is probably taking counsel and may have been advised not to reveal everything at this stage.
   • Rosie 2.6

     13 April 2015 at 4:45 pm

     +1 Anne. One could easily speculate about the degree of fishiness around political intervention in eyeing up John Campbell and the team for the axe, however I agree some solid evidence is necessary to make a claim to that effect, and to show some legitimacy on the behalf of the person who claims it.

     ” The decision was made by the National party caucus with strong influence from former radio works CEO MP Steven Joyce.”

     This is quite a radical statement. You can’t put anything past Key and Joyce, they are so crooked but to really pin it on them you need to adopt Hagar like skills and produce the proof.

     I’d love to see that proof.
     • Clemgeopin 2.6.1

       13 April 2015 at 5:02 pm

       In the many comments below the article, the writer/News Editor, Joe Trinder says, this:

       “I’m comfortable with the public being skeptical because I haven’t revealed my source. Here is what won’t happen –John Key’s lawyers won’t demand I repeal the article on defamation because they know a New Zealander out there that can testify to hearing the comment”

       Quite intriguing, isn’t it!

       Read all the comments here:
       http://mananews.co.nz/wp/?p=4397
       • Clemgeopin 2.6.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 8:10 pm

         In reply to a post, ‘How can you expect us to believe you, when one of your last “articles” was a complete lie, stating that Burger King had pulled all their advertising from Media Works when in actual fact they haven’t done that at all?’

         He says this:

         “Burger King decided to resume its advertising with Mediaworks due to my article that’s good –the letter Burger King sent to Campbell live and Mark Weldon that didn’t express that sentiment. Maybe Burger King would be willing to publicly release the email and the response and prove me wrong.

         Not a light claim! A very challenging/gutsy one!

         Pretty interesting/explosive/intriguing, isn’t it!
         • TheContrarian 2.6.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 8:52 pm

           No it’s not challenging or gutsy, it’s stupid and bullshit. Joe obviously didn’t think this through because how could BK release the email showing he was wrong – there’d be no email to release. Basically he is saying BK could prove my claim they sent me an email wrong by….releasing the email they never sent me.

           Doesn’t make any fucking sense.
           • Clemgeopin 2.6.1.1.1.1

             13 April 2015 at 10:05 pm

             Well, they could state that they did not send any such email and take defamation action?
             • TheContrarian …

               13 April 2015 at 10:11 pm

               Why bother with that? People make all sorts of weird claims about public and commercial figures all the time and no-one bats an eyelid because most of the time it is complete crap. If this was in a major newspaper then maybe but this is on a blog. I bet, if BK or Key are even aware of it it would be met with a collective “meh”.

               You don’t really think that because no-one has made a defamation claim it makes it true… Seriously?
               • Clemgeopin …

                 13 April 2015 at 10:25 pm

                 I am not saying they are true, but are quite serious allegations and character assassinations. So denial and defamation is appropriate.
                 • TheContrarian …

                   13 April 2015 at 10:33 pm

                   Some guy ranting some shit on a blog and being met mostly with derision would hardly rate on anyone’s radar. A major newspaper with a readership in the 100’s of thousands yeah, Joe Trinder getting savaged for what is obviously bullshit on a blog related to a mostly, publicaly anyway, discredited political party? Yeah, na.

                   In fact why sue for defamation? It’s only Trinders character getting defamed here.
       • Rosie 2.6.1.2

         14 April 2015 at 8:13 am

         Hi Clemgeopin. I hadn’t read that comment. Fair enough and good point about the defamation. Key and Co wrote off the entire contents of Dirty Politics without feeling the need to sue anyone for defamation – they knew it was true even though they denied everything.

         I still don’t really see the need to publish such a claim though, especially if it’s not going anywhere. It won’t contribute anything of use to the fight to save Campbell Live. I’d love to be proved wrong.
   • weka 2.7

     13 April 2015 at 4:47 pm

     I can see it both ways. The more privileged are going to take the line that such allegations do more harm than good, because we are still in positions to value ethics and principles over political reality. But I suspect that Mana understand many people have nothing less to lose (it’s a pity that I’m now thinking of Pat O’Dea’s mess as a spokesperson because you still need credibility).

     It reminds me of strategy talked about in feminist circles on the past where women who had been sexually assaulted and had no other recourse for justice could name their attacker publicly. Defamation law requires the attacker to then take them to court and thus risk exposure.
3. te reo putake 3

   13 April 2015 at 4:32 pm

   Well, this is rubbish, isn’t it? I’m reminded about the discussion here on the weekend about corruption. The takeaway from that chat is that whenever the left makes overblown and unprovable allegations like this, we look weak and it makes the right stronger.

   On the up side, it’s mana, so it won’t go far. Hopefully no further than a snide post on Yawnz or the other right wing blogs. Unless Weldon sues for defamation, of course.
   • Lanthanide 3.1

     13 April 2015 at 4:36 pm

     +1

     Shearer’s reign at the helm of Labour seemed particularly tainted by this, and Goff before him wasn’t much better. Don’t think it was too bad with Cunliffe, but with Little there’s been pretty much none.
     • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.1

       13 April 2015 at 7:52 pm

       In other words, the way to get elected in this country is to stick with the confines of the approved status quo orthodoxy, even if that orthodoxy is driving the nation off a cliff.
       • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 8:31 pm

         Er, no, if you’re going to make outlandish claims about the governing party, then make sure you actually have evidence to back them up.
         • Chooky 3.1.1.1.1

           14 April 2015 at 5:38 pm

           dont think the claims are that outlandish at all ….given all the circumstantial evidence….

           ‘Why the axing of Campbell Live is being driven by dirty politics’

           http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/04/14/why-the-axing-of-campbell-live-is-being-driven-by-dirty-politics/

           Debate on tonight by the way @ 6pm Daily Blog

           http://thedailyblog.co.nz/

           Join host Wallace Chapman and panellists Fran O’Sullivan, Bill Ralston, Simon Wilson and Phoebe Fletcher at IKA Seafood Bar and Grill, 3 Mt Eden Rd, Eden Terrace for a public live streamed discussion on the implications for journalism and broadcasting…
   • marty mars 3.2

     13 April 2015 at 4:54 pm

     “so it won’t go far”

     ummm it has already been put up on the most popular left wing blog – I know blame Mana it must be their fault – bloody need to get rid of those left wing bastards eh
     • weka 3.2.1

       13 April 2015 at 5:39 pm

       😀
     • te reo putake 3.2.2

       13 April 2015 at 5:50 pm

       I provided the context in my comment, marty. mana currently have a limited circle of influence, because they aren’t in parliament. Therefore, I hope any damage this fluff causes is limited. So far, apart from this post and some corrective chat on other social media, there’s nothing. Good. That’s all I’m saying.
   • Murray Rawshark 3.3

     13 April 2015 at 7:45 pm

     I would say that every time you post the right gets stronger. Blip’s list showed plenty of cases of corruption, just within ngati poaka.
   • weka 3.4

     13 April 2015 at 11:34 pm

     “Hopefully no further than a snide post on Yawnz”

     It’s up now. Here’s the donotlink http://www.donotlink.com/ek5k Haven’t read it though 😉
4. Colonial Rawshark 4

   13 April 2015 at 4:33 pm

   If there was real evidence, it should have been gotten into Winston Peters hands for a proper revealing!
   • rawshark-yeshe 4.1

     13 April 2015 at 4:35 pm

     There is still time CR, and maybe best raised in the House under protection ? My hope anyway !
     • Lanthanide 4.1.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:37 pm

       If it has to be raised in the house for ‘protection’ then it must be pretty flimsy evidence.
       • rawshark-yeshe 4.1.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 4:41 pm

         Not necessarily. Protection to make the claim of outright corruption by Key and have a proper means to examine it .. that kind of ‘protection’.
         • Lanthanide 4.1.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 4:56 pm

           If it is raised outside parliament, because of its serious nature, it would be challenged. If it were not challenged, that would tell you everything you need to know.
           • rawshark-yeshe 4.1.1.1.1.1

             13 April 2015 at 5:00 pm

             Well, it is raised outside of Parliament .. let’s see if it’s challenged or not. And please, what do you mean by your last sentence ? It’s not quite clear to me … thx Lanth.
             • Lanthanide …

               13 April 2015 at 5:14 pm

               If it were raised outside Parliament by someone prominent such as Winston Peters, I mean.
   • weka 4.2

     13 April 2015 at 4:38 pm

     Yeah Peters has never made claims that later weren’t validated 😉
     • rawshark-yeshe 4.2.1

       13 April 2015 at 4:47 pm

       And neither has Mana, which is where the post begins.
       • weka 4.2.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 4:49 pm

         Are you saying Peters and Mans are as bad as each other?
         • rawshark-yeshe 4.2.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 4:54 pm

           No. Exactly the opposite. I believe in them both to come through for us on matters like this. Dammit, somebody has to.
           • Lanthanide 4.2.1.1.1.1

             13 April 2015 at 4:57 pm

             weka was being sarcastic, hence the winky smile.

             Winston has frequently said things that turned out not to be true. Like the supposed sale of Huka Lodge to the chinese.
             • rawshark-yeshe …

               13 April 2015 at 5:02 pm

               I recognised the sarcasm. Thx.
           • weka 4.2.1.1.1.2

             13 April 2015 at 4:58 pm

             I’m willing to believe Trinder on this, or the possibility it’s true. But Peters has often puffed himself up with claims that come to nothing. Other times he delivers. That’s Peters, always unreliable because it’s a game. Just responding to CV’s idea that this would have been better handled by Peters.
             • rawshark-yeshe …

               13 April 2015 at 5:05 pm

               I just so want it to be proven Weka ! We all know it’s true in essence that Key is gunning for Campbell Live, but oh, if proof exists ? I’ll keep hoping and willing to believe.
   • Lanthanide 4.3

     13 April 2015 at 5:14 pm

     Actually, this would be the coup-de-grace for Campbell to keep his show on the air…
     • rawshark-yeshe 4.3.1

       13 April 2015 at 5:17 pm

       ^^^^^^ this !
       • Jones 4.3.1.1

         14 April 2015 at 11:44 am

         Perhaps Campbell can investigate the veracity of the statement?
5. Lanthanide 5

   13 April 2015 at 4:35 pm

   I feel like this would be better suited as a comment in Open Mike until such time as evidence was given to back it up.
   • Skinny 5.1

     14 April 2015 at 11:30 am

     Looks suspect to me. Put up or shut up, hearsay evidence is hardly proof. Looks like huff & puff stuff to me.
6. Maui 6

   13 April 2015 at 4:50 pm

   Joe Trinder defends his comments on facebook here: http://postimg.org/image/r6y1lrkyl/
   • weka 6.1

     13 April 2015 at 4:55 pm

     They’re on the mana news page too I think. The bit I think people are missing is he isn’t after credibility. When you take that into account, it makes more sense. This is guerrilla warfare not nation state rules of engagement.
     • Maui 6.1.1

       13 April 2015 at 5:09 pm

       Oh I didn’t see those, interesting point. I wonder if this sort of message just strengthens Mana voters hatred of the Government rather than being a good way of attracting new voters…
   • rawshark-yeshe 6.2

     13 April 2015 at 4:57 pm

     and very badly, which is a great shame.
     • BassGuy 6.2.1

       13 April 2015 at 7:09 pm

       Agreed. It’s something I would like to believe but until any evidence has come out, it’s all just too easy to dismiss.
7. the pigman 7

   13 April 2015 at 4:57 pm

   *facepalm*

   Even worse when you read Joe’s article and his spirited defense…
   • TheContrarian 7.1

     13 April 2015 at 5:05 pm

     Exactly. His “defense” is what makes it 10 times more ridiculous
8. TheContrarian 8

   13 April 2015 at 5:00 pm

   “Mana News doesn’t have to substantiate our reveal it sourceswe don’t write balanced articles. We expose the national governments corruption the onus is on the media to do its job and prove us wrong.”

   – Joe in the comments section

   I’m now almost entirely convinced this is complete bullshit. That sort of answer reeks of “I/we/someone just made this up”. Like when Bomber claimed The Daily Blog was hacked by the government he got all huffy and nasty when queried. Answers of that sort scream bullshit. Shifting of the Burden of Proof is a tell-tale sign of complete shit being spun
   • weka 8.1

     13 April 2015 at 5:42 pm

     Citation needed
     • TheContrarian 8.1.1

       13 April 2015 at 6:37 pm

       For what?
       • weka 8.1.1.1

         13 April 2015 at 11:27 pm

         Your claims about Bomber, TDB etc. There was a certain irony to your assertions all things considered.
         • TheContrarian 8.1.1.1.1

           13 April 2015 at 11:36 pm

           I’ll be more than happy to provide links but I’m on my dying phone in a hotel with limited ability right now. If you can wait until tomorrow I can give you the links you asked for.
           • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1

             13 April 2015 at 11:51 pm

             ok.
             • TheContrarian …

               14 April 2015 at 12:05 am

               Tomorrow it is.

               But if I said “you prove me wrong, I don’t have to show you evidence” I’m sure you’d be a little less accepting.
               • on the fence …

                 14 April 2015 at 9:14 am

                 I think this is the link:

                 http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/25/last-nights-hack-attack-against-the-daily-blog/
                 • TheContrarian …

                   14 April 2015 at 9:16 am

                   Yep got it thanks
             • Rosie …

               14 April 2015 at 8:30 am

               It’s true weka. I was still around on the DTB site when that happened, when the site went down. It was at the time of the talk on the TCIS bill that DTB hosted (I attended the Wgtn talk).

               Probably would have been around August 2013. I kind of believed him at the time, but then I changed my mind, as his blowharderey became increasingly apparent to me.

               It’s not to say that strange things don’t happen to people that speak out against the government or dare to question it’s direction, simply that Martyn Bradbury believed he was a victim of a government conspiracy to silence him, and I think his ego got a little inflated at the thought being such an important figure that the government would seek him out especially.
               • weka …

                 14 April 2015 at 9:13 am

                 Sure Rosie, I have no problem with that. I was more pointing out the irony of TC making a statement about Bomber and putting a fair amount of spin on it from his own negative feelins about Bomber and using that to come to the conclusion that Trinder is full of shit, as if the two things have any relationship other than TC’s feelings.

                 I have not idea if Trinder is telling the truth, making shit up, or something in between. I feel uncomfortable with how he’s done this, for similar reasons to most people here. I also am curious about the idea that he doesn’t care about credibility and what that might mean. That’s way more interesting to me than assertions that he’s lying when there is no evidence for that other than that he refuses to provide evidence 😉

                 Pretty interesting watching people’s reactions.
                 • TheContrarian …

                   14 April 2015 at 9:54 am

                   Ahhhh, no. Bomber being full of shit in no way influenced my coming to the conclusion of Trinder being full of shit. Where the two share commonality is the refusal to substantiate their claims – that’s it.

                   I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that i was “using that to come to the conclusion that Trinder is full of shit…”
                   • weka …

                     14 April 2015 at 10:00 am

                     Probably because that’s what it looked like, and because you have no evidence that lack of presentation of evidence = being full of shit, and that in the case of Bomber it looks to be more about your hatred of him so how is that useful?

                     I’m happy to stand corrected that you weren’t making any other connection.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 April 2015 at 10:58 am

                     Bomber aside it’s not just the lack of evidence – it reversal of the burden of proof, the deleting of comments , bold assertions being stated as fact, the fact that if this was an overheard phone conversation the eavesdropper would have no idea who Key was talking to or about what, the weird “BK should release the email they didn’t send to prove they didn’t send it” statement and the unlikeliness Key would need to direct anyone to fire Campbell when one of his acolytes could just do it for him (which may actually be what happened).

                     It all speaks, on the balance of probabilities, to being being a steaming pile of horse shit.

                     But hey, if Trinder wants to man up and provide evidence, I’d be more than happy to be wrong.
                   • weka …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:21 am

                     “it reversal of the burden of proof”

                     Unless he doesn’t care about credibility and is doing this for other reasons.

                     “the deleting of comments”

                     Did you check that? I thought it too, but then I could see the comment from the guy who claimed that.

                     I don’t actually care if bloggers delete comments. ‘my blog my rules’. Women bloggers routinely have to remove comments from their blogs, so it’s normal to me. It’s not an inherent sign of someone being a bullshitter.

                     “bold assertions being stated as fact”

                     Yeah, kind of like TRP’s post recently with a rumour in it. He got a somewhat different reception though.

                     “the fact that if this was an overheard phone conversation the eavesdropper would have no idea who Key was talking to or about what”

                     That’s not true, use your imagination and bear in mind we’re not talking about court of law levels of evidence here.

                     “the weird “BK should release the email they didn’t send to prove they didn’t send it” statement”

                     What?

                     “and the unlikeliness Key would need to direct anyone to fire Campbell when one of his acolytes could just do it for him (which may actually be what happened).”

                     It wouldn’t be the first time Key’s made a mistake.

                     What we’re disagreeing on here is not whether Trinder made it up, but whether your assumptions and conclusions are reasonable.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:29 am

                     I’m not interested in relitigating all this. If you wanna believe him, not believe him, think my reasoning is unsound or whatever, go for your life.

                     I’ve stated my position and you yours. I think we can safely leave it there. There’s no real need to go into the minutia. You disagree with my conclusions and rationale and I am happy to leave it at that – I don’t really have the time to go into it any further.
                   • weka …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:34 am

                     Sure, but you’re the one that just made a bunch of assertions that I then critiqued and now you have no response? This is exactly what I am talking about.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:37 am

                     I do have a response – I don’t have time for this. Draw whatever conclusions you like
                   • Skinny …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:44 am

                     “That’s not true, use your imagination and bear in mind we’re not talking about court of law levels of evidence here.”

                     Without proof which this clown from Mana refuses to supply it is sheer theatre. It is simply not worth bothering having a trip to fantasy island over.
                 • Rosie …

                   14 April 2015 at 10:28 am

                   Hi weka.

                   Got it. I was also wondering what the pathway was between TC’s reaction to Trinder’s claim of knowing there was a statement from the PM “I want that left wing bastard gone” and Martyn Bradbury’s reaction to his site going down, apart from the obvious theme of “Key government out to get dissenters” (which by the way, I agree with you that is completely plausible given the track record).

                   Good to see TC cleared that up when he said

                   “Ahhhh, no. Bomber being full of shit in no way influenced my coming to the conclusion of Trinder being full of shit. Where the two share commonality is the refusal to substantiate their claims – that’s it.”

                   That aside, a good protest response to Key’s alleged statement if we ever had a leg to stand on with it, would be “We want that right wing bastard PM gone”.
                   • weka …

                     14 April 2015 at 11:48 am

                     lolz at that last bit, very good.
             • TheContrarian …

               14 April 2015 at 9:16 am

               Here you go Weka, as promised:

               http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/25/last-nights-hack-attack-against-the-daily-blog/
               • weka …

                 14 April 2015 at 9:34 am

                 Thanks, and thanks for proving my point.

                 “I’m now almost entirely convinced this is complete bullshit. That sort of answer reeks of “I/we/someone just made this up”. Like when Bomber claimed The Daily Blog was hacked by the government he got all huffy and nasty when queried. Answers of that sort scream bullshit. Shifting of the Burden of Proof is a tell-tale sign of complete shit being spun”

                 See, when I read the post and comments what I see is a relatively neutral announcement of a hack of the site (a courtesy I would have thought), a claim that the hack was sophisticated, and a single comment at the end wondering if this came from someone in the employ of the govt.

                 Given Bomber’s political activities and connections with radicals, and given DP and the level of corruption of this govt, I don’t see how that’s implausible.

                 I also don’t see him getting huffy and nasty when queried, I see him getting huffy and scathing and refusing to do what you want when questioned by two people that hate on him publicly.

                 In other words, your characterisation of him looks like it’s driven by the fact that you’ve fallen out with him and don’t like him, which really has nothing to do with the plausibility of his post (or Trinder’s).

                 Not liking someone isn’t evidence of their bullshit. You are of course entitled to your opinion about Bomber (and it’s shared by quite a few people), but it still doesn’t relate to the actual issue.
                 • TheContrarian …

                   14 April 2015 at 9:50 am

                   Well whatever.
9. Bill 9

   13 April 2015 at 5:13 pm

   That’s not an ‘interesting claim’ at all. Unless sources are in the pipeline, that piece is nothing but thoughtless fucking bullshit.

   For the writer of the article (Joe 4 hours ago) to contend that Mana News don’t have to substantiate what they report as fact, because it’s up to the media to prove them wrong, is bordering on looped out and gone bysey-byes.

   Not to be outdone by mere mods and authors, commenters writing that people have no right to demand verification because those seeking verification happily swallow government lines ‘hook, line and sinker’, are tiny voices trying to get back to us from over some distant horizon of just plain old ‘gone’.

   Seems the “Cliff. Front runners. Fast followers.” comment I submitted on the “Clinton running for President’ post would have better off placed here.
10. emergency mike 10

    13 April 2015 at 5:38 pm

    Meh, maybe it’s true, but without evidence ‘I got a mate who says he heard John Key say blah’ is simply rumour mongering a la Cameron Slater.
11. Upnorth 11

    13 April 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Come on guys – Mana news have said in ther comment column they dont need to prove anything – My mother is a supermodel and only 36.

    Lets get real here – show the details then it is a story – just saying we “dont have to prove it” is not a good start for a conversation.
12. Plan B 12

    13 April 2015 at 5:45 pm

    I would encourage people to read the Chris Trotter article:
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2015/03/very-different-personages-vladislav.html
    It pretty much explains everything.
    Many people here are looking for truths, and are worried that some comments from the left cannot be proved. meanwhile the new world we live in is no longer interested in truth, is unconcerned about being found out, maybe JK and his team understand this new world in the same way that Surkov does and are acting in the same way?
13. millsy 13

    13 April 2015 at 6:07 pm

    Not suprising. I have no doubt he would have said that but as said above, no proof.
    • Anne 13.1

      13 April 2015 at 6:27 pm

      Agreed. I bet he said it more than once. But you have to serve up something akin to evidence.
14. Ecosse_Maidy 14

    13 April 2015 at 6:28 pm

    We are proud to announce that John Campbells replacement,,,will be a 24 hour Celebrity Big Brother John Keys Show…lets give it up for John
15. Ecosse_Maidy 15

    13 April 2015 at 6:30 pm

    You think it bad we are talking Campbell Live off air? You wait till we can Bananas In Pyjamas & Country Calanders, you plebs!!!!
16. marty mars 16

    13 April 2015 at 6:31 pm

    PROOF, show. me. the. proof, now!!! show me the proof now!!! show it to me!!! meanwhile all the proof for a million lies and distortions are in BliPs list and what has happened – nowt and why??? – get that and the left might get somewhere in the next election.

    Might be true, sounds trueish, hope it’s true, but proof – nah that’s not how the game works anymore.
    • Bill 16.1

      13 April 2015 at 6:46 pm

      Not entirely sure where you’re coming from marty.

      Yes, it’s believable that JK could have said he ‘wanted the bastard gone’ and it’s believable that political machinations are at the root of Campbell being axed.

      But there are ways to put unverified but believable stuff out there and ways to put unverified but believable stuff out there; ways that avoid an invite to some post modernist hell hole, where everything is truth and/or lies depending on the time of day and what truth you want to build…where facts are unnecessary, where no verification or thought is required and where such ‘niceties’ sink below the fetid surface of a world comprising of nowt but a churning of senseless bullshit.
      • weka 16.1.1

        13 April 2015 at 11:30 pm

        If it’s true that he can’t reveal his sources, do you think there is a way to put the information out there that is different to what he did?
        • Bill 16.1.1.1

          14 April 2015 at 11:36 am

          Many ways.

          One way is satire.

          Another is to use qualifiers (eg, apparently or, it’s my understanding that etc) in the stead of bald assertion.

          Or he could have more or less written exactly what he did if he’d prefaced the whole pile of shite with a ‘Would you believe…?’

          Meanwhile, the first ‘source’ is sitting at the level of ‘a man with a dug in the pub’.

          Second source – an email where he claims to know the recipients and sender. Produce it, with the sender’s name redacted if need be…

          Now, I’m fine that he doesn’t want credibility. Not fine that he didn’t reflect on how his bullshit (assuming at this point there is no drip feed and reveal at play) will be used to discredit other more substantial claims coming from the broader left in the future.
          • weka 16.1.1.1.1

            14 April 2015 at 11:43 am

            thanks, that’s helpful. So largely it’s about how he’s done this rather than him doing it without producing evidence per se (reminds me of TRP’s recent rumourmongering post).

            I’m not so sure about the last sentence. As I’ve said to McFlock, I’m not sure that Mana owe the broader left much. I don’t agree with the approach that Trinder has taken, but I’m also willing to look further at why he might be using that approach.
            • Skinny 16.1.1.1.1.1

              14 April 2015 at 11:54 am

              Mana was a one tricky pony that failed to listen to the wise head in Sue Bradford. Hone won’t ever get back into parliament and he knows it.
            • Bill 16.1.1.1.1.2

              14 April 2015 at 12:07 pm

              No, it’s not about how he’s done this. If he’d done any of the above, he wouldn’t have been doing what he’s done.

              And yes, it’s reminiscent of trp’s post. Kind of. Except he didn’t make any bold claims or report anything that would reasonably be treated as rumour as fact.
              • weka …

                14 April 2015 at 12:18 pm

                “No, it’s not about how he’s done this. If he’d done any of the above, he wouldn’t have been doing what he’s done.”

                Sorry, I can’t make any sense of that. Obviously if he’d done things differently he’d have done things differently.

                Many people here are saying that it’s the fact that he won’t/can’t produce evidence that is the problem. I thought you were saying that he could have for instance used qualifiers and this would mean he wasn’t leaving himself (and others) open to being undermined.

                The comparison I was drawing with TRP’s post was the absence of evidence.
                • Bill …

                  14 April 2015 at 1:02 pm

                  To clarify. If he’d written (say) satire he simply would not have been presenting facts. That’s not ‘doing things differently’. It’s doing something completely different.

                  If he had presented his shit as something other than hard and fast fact with none of the usual stuff that goes with hard and fast facts – eg, some fucking evidence! – then he wouldn’t have to field any calls for evidence to be produced, would he?

                  TRP didn’t need evidence to back up facts because TRP was writing about rumour and speculation and presenting it as such.
            • te reo putake 16.1.1.1.1.3

              14 April 2015 at 12:19 pm

              There are a couple of differences between my April Fools Day post and this situation, weka.

              Firstly, I made it clear it was unsubstantiated rumours I was posting on. I didn’t claim they were true. And I don’t represent anyone other than myself.

              However, Trinder is the news editor at mana news. He is authorised to speak for the mana party. He is claiming his story is true, but is refusing to back up his claim.

              I’m merely an opinion piece writer on broad based political blog. Trinder is an official of a political party, responsible for its media output. I would have thought a grasp of both journalistic methods and ethics would have been desirable in the role of news editor, but apparently not:

              “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles … ”

              So, he’s leaving open the possibility that he is just straight out lying.
              • weka …

                14 April 2015 at 12:23 pm

                The comparison was simply around the absence of evidence, which seems to be a big sticking point for a number of people.

                Your larger comment is another example of the expectation that Mana and Mana News should behave in certain collectively sanctioned ways. Why is that?

                Edit, Trinder’s statement on being a blogger not a journo http://thestandard.org.nz/i-want-that-left-wing-bastard-gone/#comment-999911
                • te reo putake …

                  14 April 2015 at 12:40 pm

                  Why is that?

                  To avoid looking like tossers, mainly.

                  As I’ve said elsewhere, these feeble attacks simply strengthen the right. And any time the left find something of substance, the right can just roll their eyes and mumble ‘HFee, Dotcom, Trinder, blah, blah, blah …’
                  • weka …

                    14 April 2015 at 12:50 pm

                    “To avoid looking like tossers, mainly.”

                    That’s not concern for Mana though right? It’s about protecting the downtrodden left. So again, why should Mana be concerned about that?
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 12:57 pm

                      Why should mana be concerned? I thought mana was supposed to be part of the left, but if they’re not, well, fuck ’em.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 1:48 pm

                      I think it’s the other way round TRP, fuck them unless they do what we want the way we want it done. And yeah, let’s fuck the Mana constituency while we’re at it and if they don’t like it they can be represented by Labour 🙄
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:00 pm

                      The ‘mana constituency’, at least the northern portion of it, actually voted to be represented by Labour at the last election, weka.

                      I think this piece in mana news may just be the final twitches of a dying beast. When a party is that irrelevant that they have to resort to making shit up and saying ‘so what, the rules don’t apply to us, maaan’ then they’re dog tucker. But, until they finally wind up, I suppose they will continue to do small harms to the wider left movement with stunts such as this article.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:17 pm

                      I was thinking of the non-vote, but anyway.

                      You may be right, it may be the dying twitches. But what concerns me is the attitudinal stuff in this thread that says that Mana should be x, y, z when really most of us here know jack shit, and what that means in the longer term for relationships between the left and the Mana Movement. On the other hand, that’s probably just a more visible manifestation of what’s always been 🙁

                      (I also can’t believe I am having to advocate on this blog for people with literacy issues having the right to write).
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:25 pm

                      I’ve made another comment below about the literacy thing, but I’m with you on it. I’ve spent a good part of my working life translating legalese into plain English for working people. I wouldn’t have lasted a day if I’d patronised their educational failings or tried to be smug about the fancy words I knew that they didn’t. The same should apply here, in my opinion. Focus on the ideas, not the typos.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:29 pm

                      +1 thanks.
                • Bill …

                  14 April 2015 at 1:20 pm

                  1. I hear that some people are saying that fairies exist.

                  2. Fairies exist.

                  Not really hard to spot how 1 is completely different to 2, or to understand that 1 requires no evidence for fairy existence whatsoever but that 2 does.

                  TRP wrote something akin to 1.

                  Trinder has written something akin to 2.

                  It seems Trinder reckons it’s fine for political info to be presented as 2 … but for it to wrapped in the expectations attached to 1. That, in my book, makes Trinder either a drooling loon or a loon screaming off in the distance.

                  If he had written a smart piece pointing to the power of belief over the power of info, I wouldn’t be viewing him as a drooling loon, hopefully fading into the distance. But he didn’t do that.
                  • weka …

                    14 April 2015 at 1:52 pm

                    I don’t have a problem with you viewing him as a loon. He probably thinks the same of many here.

                    “Trinder has written something akin to 2.”

                    Except I assume you don’t believe in fairies. It changes if Trinder is telling the truth.

                    1. I hear that some people are saying that Key tried to get JC fired.

                    2. Key tried to get JC fired.
                    • Bill …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:02 pm

                      Given that my comment referred to expectations around factual claims and rumours, any thoughts I have around the existence of fairies is utterly fucking irrelevant to the point being made.

                      Couching it in terms of JK and JC makes not one iota of difference to that point.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:19 pm

                      You version is based on an absolute falsehood, mines based on something that may or may not be true but is certainly possible. All the difference in the world.

                      (I’m guessing the main difference is you think Trinder is lying, whereas I have no idea if he is).
      • marty mars 16.1.2

        14 April 2015 at 1:00 am

        “where no verification or thought is required and where such ‘niceties’ sink below the fetid surface of a world comprising of nowt but a churning of senseless bullshit.”

        good description of the current truths put to us by MSM and politicians.

        the truth and proof are slippery tuna wiggling in water

        I saw the article and decided early on not to link to it in OM because I felt it had holes and would raise more questions than it answered – and it has – but I support Joe and what he has done.
        • Bill 16.1.2.1

          14 April 2015 at 11:41 am

          good description of the current truths put to us by MSM and politicians

          At which point, does one join in with the same meaningless bullshit, bearing in mind that there are some very loud voices out there that will drown you out in a flash? Or does one treat them with the contempt and derision they deserve while seeking to pull the bastards to account or reveal them?
          • marty mars 16.1.2.1.1

            14 April 2015 at 3:55 pm

            Of course I agree with you – it’s just that if they ignore the contempt and derision and just keep doing what they do – when do we say enough!, when do we break them out of their complacency and make them see us. I totally agree that we want to, “pull the bastards to account”, totally agree.
    • miravox 16.2

      13 April 2015 at 10:51 pm

      “but proof – nah that’s not how the game works anymore.”
      Well, not for statements from the Nact & Co. If it’s been said it must be true for stuff they put out.

      The expectations of the left are somewhat higher.
      • marty mars 16.2.1

        14 April 2015 at 1:03 am

        hmmm well I’ve heard the parties of the left and right lie and bullshit their way right through the system over the years. The expectations may be true of the left, maybe that’s why we are continually disappointed by the reality.
        • miravox 16.2.1.1

          14 April 2015 at 1:43 am

          I don’t disagree Marty.

          I think the public treat the left much more harshly when it’s caught it a lie. I think they expect as much from the right and in a perverse way, admire the gall. At least that appears to be the way things are in the circles I move in.
    • dave 16.3

      14 April 2015 at 6:13 am

      yeah all the John key lies from the election all with proof dirty politics all proven lolololo if mana news provided proof they would still be in full denial mode
17. Neil 17

    13 April 2015 at 6:43 pm

    If it is true, it will be truly explosive, given Keys past history of saying things when he doesn’t think anyone is listening, it could well be true. I wouldn’t put it past Key to say something like this, you’ve only got to look at how he reacted to Hagar’s book, calling him a screaming left wing conspirator.
    It would need some pretty solid evidence to back it up.
    I guess we will just have to wait & see how it plays out.
18. Aaron 18

    13 April 2015 at 7:21 pm

    The thing with this is that you don’t need a direct conspiracy to make things happen. All it takes is for Key sympathiser to get into a position of power at Mediaworks and the pressure starts to go on – What’s actually surprising is that it’s taken this long for it to happen.

    Probably Mike Hosking proving you can make a success of the 7pm slot while delivering zero percent real journalism has also made it easier for TV3 to think they could try something else as well.

    As for why every else making comments on this thread has such a definite view on this matter I can only guess – none of us can no anything for sure at this stage.
19. dave 19

    13 April 2015 at 7:26 pm

    its more than likely true from what we know from dirty politics ,it tick all the boxes for abuse of power corruption of the highest order the pm haveing a journalist fired for doing his job, i hope the opposition will question key and iam sure Campbell’s lawyers will take an interest.
    didn’t muldoon have journalist fired?
    • TheContrarian 19.1

      13 April 2015 at 7:34 pm

      I would say it is highly unlikely based upon what we know of dirty politics. Key was the squeaky clean guy, getting underlings to do his dirty work. Key wouldn’t be on the phone asking for people to be fired. All he needs do is put his sympathisers in positions of power and let them do what they do naturally – Key wouldn’t have to do shit.

      Besides which “it is likely to be true” is completely different from the claim Joe is making who insists it is true and he doesn’t need to prove rather his detectors need to disprove it….which is stupid and backwards
20. Murray Rawshark 20

    13 April 2015 at 7:53 pm

    I think Joe Trinder should learn to write satire. This story, which I’m dubious about, could have been told far more effectively, and without any of the distractions about sources and truth. At the end of the day and when the race is run and all that stuff, what the hell does it matter anyway? FJK has already done far worse on many occasions. Being possibly innocent of this one doesn’t turn him into a good bloke, but some people are loving the chance to attack Mana. Again.
    • TheContrarian 20.1

      13 April 2015 at 8:01 pm

      It’s not MANA that people should be attacking, it’s this dope Joe and his “na uh, you have to disprove me!” gibberish.
    • marty mars 20.2

      13 April 2015 at 8:08 pm

      + 1

      yep key lies, lies and lies again and even when it is on the news and everyone is jumping and pumping – nothing, key slides out. This particular story is pure key – it smells for sure but the focus of some goes onto Mana – same as it ever was.
      • McFlock 20.2.1

        13 April 2015 at 11:55 pm

        The tories slide out unchallenged from almost every lie.
        People on the left get challenged on every verifiable, provable truth we utter.

        This is one of the basic principles of whenever the disenfranchised fight the privileged, be it classwarfare or “identity politics”.

        So at best we have an apparent lefty refusing to provide evidence for a truth they uttered. At worst Trinder forgot the line about looking from pig to man and man to pig and not being able to tell the difference.

        If it’s true, tories will call it a lie. If it’s a lie, the tories will be more believable when they call it a lie. And the rest of us get dragged down by association – if Mana News get a decent scoop on wrongdoing by the tories, the first line the tories will defend themselves with will be “these are the people who previously toldsuch horrible lies and claimed to have proof”. Just like they do with KDC’s “moment of truth”.

        Thanks, Mana News /sarc
        • weka 20.2.1.1

          14 April 2015 at 12:03 am

          And how is it that Mana owe the left something at this point?
          • McFlock 20.2.1.1.1

            14 April 2015 at 10:44 am

            Never said they did.
            Just that the tories will damn (as complicit in a lie) anyone on the left who can be vaguely associated with Mana News.

            And the msm will unquestioningly report the tory line.
            • weka 20.2.1.1.1.1

              14 April 2015 at 11:11 am

              So? You’d have made more sense without the /sarc. Either it matters what Mana News does, or it doesn’t. Which is it?
              • McFlock …

                14 April 2015 at 11:22 am

                Yes, it matters.
                No, that doesn’t mean Mana “owe the left something”.

                Someone leaving a turd on my doorstep doesn’t me they owe me a damned thing.
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 12:20 pm

                  And again, there’s the idea that Mana News has done something to you (or the left).
                  • McFlock …

                    14 April 2015 at 2:21 pm

                    They have done something that has affected the left by providing ammunition for the tories. They don’t exist in their own isolated universe.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:30 pm

                      Of course, but does the irony really escape you of the ‘left’ expecting better behaviour of Mana after what happened at the last election?
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:44 pm

                      What happened, according to you?

                      Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:52 pm

                      “Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?”

                      According to you.

                      And you know very well what I’m referring to about last election.

                      Are we at the disingenuous stage of the conversation then and don’t need to continure? I’m happy to be explaining my thinking, but can’t be bothered with the sarc and smartarsery when people appear to need to be communicating better not worse.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:16 pm

                      “Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?”

                      According to you.

                      No, according to you.

                      No, I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to. Some people here reckon Davis ran an effective campaign. Some mana folk seem to think winning the seat involved some sort of dirty trick, or that Hone deserved everyone else on the left and Labour in particular to just stand aside.

                      Frankly, I don’t know of anything that struck me as a betrayal. Politics involves losing elections – I’ve had my own small experience of that. It hurts, but you get up and get over it. If you know of an instance of actual sabotage of mana by the left, rather than competition on an even keel, maybe then I’d see why they should feel hard done by, and therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:33 pm

                      That link doesn’t show me saying that Mana don’t want to win elections. Like I said, you’re the one running that line.

                      No, I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to. Some people here reckon Davis ran an effective campaign. Some mana folk seem to think winning the seat involved some sort of dirty trick, or that Hone deserved everyone else on the left and Labour in particular to just stand aside.

                      Frankly, I don’t know of anything that struck me as a betrayal. Politics involves losing elections – I’ve had my own small experience of that. It hurts, but you get up and get over it. If you know of an instance of actual sabotage of mana by the left, rather than competition on an even keel, maybe then I’d see why they should feel hard done by, and therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.

                      Right, but you do know how some Mana people feel about that right?

                      Reasons I wouldn’t call it an even keel (assuming you mean level playing field?),

                      Mana are representing some of the poorest people in the country. That’s going to affect things throughout the organisation despite KDC’s injection of cash for a relatively short period of time (and do we even know what it was?).

                      The mistreatment of Māori voters at booths.

                      Racism, which just make everything that much harder.

                      Racism in the MSM, who still largely don’t know how to report Māori news or current affairs.

                      I don’t see democracy as the being the people with the best PR skills get to win. I see it as an attempt to represent all people. The left should be working towards that, not scrabbling for the biggest piece of the pie at the expense of others.

                      “therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.”

                      That’s your interpretation. I can see how some in Mana might not feel an obligation to play the game the way the rest of the left want, but that’s doesn’t follow that they’re happy to make things difficult for everyone else.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:01 pm

                      That link was you saying that my line about politics being about growing support might not be correct from Mana’s perspective. If a party cannot get elected, but does not wish to grow support and prefers to just preach to the converted, how can they have an objective of getting elected?

                      As for the rest:
                      Davis had an advantage over Harawira because poverty in TTT, racism, and the MSM?

                      How is that the fault of the other left wing parties, even if it’s true?
        • marty mars 20.2.1.2

          14 April 2015 at 12:44 am

          your queensbury rules don’t apply when only one side follows them

          and all these lines the tories will use – they already use them!!! They don’t need “these are the people who previously…” because they lie continuously anyway and even when caught they lie to get out of it. So many tmes the left have thought ‘this is the one that will get them’ and every time nah slide away time.

          oh look Mana aren’t in Parliament and they will still lose the next election for the left ffs it is wake up time.
          • One Anonymous Bloke 20.2.1.2.1

            14 April 2015 at 9:00 am

            McFlock is right: a double standard applies.
            • weka 20.2.1.2.1.1

              14 April 2015 at 9:17 am

              that might be Trinder’s point too.
              • One Anonymous Bloke …

                14 April 2015 at 9:39 am

                If so, he hasn’t made it very well.
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 9:46 am

                  Maybe he’s not talking to you.
                  • McFlock …

                    14 April 2015 at 10:54 am

                    Maybe he forgets that when he writes articles for publication, other people can read it, or report it without perhaps repeating the subtleties that were intended to be transmitted to the faithful.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:10 am

                      or maybe he just doesn’t care (which seems to be what he is saying).
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:16 am

                      Politics is a funny game for him to be in, then.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:23 am

                      How so? Because he doesn’t play by a certain set of rules?
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:27 am

                      No, because politics is about substantially increasing your following, not preaching to the converted while alienating outsiders.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:32 am

                      “No, because politics is about substantially increasing your following, not preaching to the converted while alienating outsiders.”

                      To be honest, I don’t think either of us are in any position to know what’s best for Mana. Your statement is about how you think politics is done successfully, but is predicated on ideas about what success is as well as how it happens. Bear in mind that Mana just played that game for quite some time, and look what happened. They have very little in the public domain that you and I access that tells us what is really going on for them, what works for them, what they want to achieve. We get snippets, but nothign close to the detail or understanding we might have of other parties. Bet it looks different from the marae.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:43 am

                      Maybe this is Trinder’s memo that he’s given up on Mana getting elected and will just piss in the pool from now on.

                      In which case, I repeat “thanks, Mana News”.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 11:44 am

                      ok McFlock, ignore what I just said, and keep on with thinking you know what’s best for Mana (and presumably radical Māori).
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:20 pm

                      yes, because I’ve been totally talking about what’s best for Mana and Maori. /sarc

                      So right back atcha.

                      Maybe a left wing and registered-with-the-electoral-commission political party doesn’t want to get elected. Well, good for them.

                      The point remains that if they start lying as bad as the tories, everyone gets tarred with that brush.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:35 pm

                      “Maybe this is Trinder’s memo that he’s given up on Mana getting elected and will just piss in the pool from now on.”

                      Maybe. Or maybe he sees it differently. Would you be interested if he did?

                      “yes, because I’ve been totally talking about what’s best for Mana and Maori. /sarc”

                      “Maybe a left wing and registered-with-the-electoral-commission political party doesn’t want to get elected. Well, good for them.”

                      I don’t believe you.

                      “The point remains that if they start lying as bad as the tories, everyone gets tarred with that brush.”

                      Yes, but why should they care if the left gets tarred with that brush? That’s not a rhetorical question.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:42 pm

                      I’d be not just interested, I’d be gobsmacked.

                      And actually, I do mean “good for them”. If they don’t want to get elected, it opens the field for people who do. Unless they also decide to do things that can be then used against people who do want to get elected. In which case screw them.

                      Yes, but why should they care if the left gets tarred with that brush? That’s not a rhetorical question.
                      Because in a democratic society, the only way system change happens is to persuade people to vote for you or for policies that matter. If Mana now don’t want to get elected, but are also happy to damage the reputations of parties that do want to get elected, then that leaves the tories in charge. No change.

                      Which makes me wonder whether you believe Mana actually want change, or that they just want to say “I told you so” from the vantage point of a deckchair as the ship sinks.
          • McFlock 20.2.1.2.2

            14 April 2015 at 11:12 am

            The problem isn’t that one side uses them.
            The problem is that only one side has a foul called by the msm when that side deviates from queensbury rules. And that side isn’t the tories.

            Look at the “moment of truth”. Not as much of a fizzer as the public dialogue suggests, but labelled as such because it wasn’t good enough. Now imagine what the dialogue would be if substantial claims in it were false. Because that’s the path that Trinder seems to be going down.
            • weka 20.2.1.2.2.1

              14 April 2015 at 11:28 am

              If you assume that Trinder’s claims are false. If you assume they true, then his tactics look off, but not completely outside the realms of reasonable. See my example below of women who’ve been raped naming their rapist publicly because they have no other avenues for justice.

              Assuming Trinder is telling the truth*, I don’t particularly approve of what he is doing. But it’s interesting seeing how many people are assuming he is lying, and/or that there is nothing useful about what he is doing/he is downright wrong in his approach, as if he should be playing by other people’s rules (cf to my point about guerilla warfare).

              *for the sake of argument. Myself I can’t see anything that suggests he is lying, but he could be. Or someone could be lying to him.
              • McFlock …

                14 April 2015 at 11:47 am

                The was in reply to Marty’s “queensbury rules” comment, which I assume means making shit up because the tories do, too.

                But having read some on the comments on the MN page, I think that Trinder’s response seems a bit ott for someone who is confident in the truth of their story.
                • marty mars …

                  14 April 2015 at 3:48 pm

                  That assumption is incorrect. One of the things we know about politics is that it has got to be a multi pronged and multi level of attack to build the perception that we know to be true. Part of that could be called ‘guerrilla tactics’ where non-usual modes are employed. I see this article in that bracket. When fringe players do it then all the majors can tut tut and enjoy the discomfort created for their political enemies. A bit like a placard at a gnat function. Far from hurting the left it actually strengthens the left because it creates confidence imo. It doessn’t give the gnats more ammunition or get out of jail cards because they don’t care about, a Mana and b the left – they care what the polls say and nobody s interested in Mana or the issue so the polls will say zip, the gnats will go ho hum and the only people getting worked up are lefties who somehow think they’ve been sullied because “where is the PROOF”. I think that is a waste of time for the left.
                  • McFlock …

                    14 April 2015 at 4:06 pm

                    So, in this case, what is the “non-usual mode” that has been used here?

                    Making stories up?
                    Repeating an unsubstantiated claim as a categorical truth?
                    Holding on to proof as some kind of point (what point)?

                    And how can this particular “non-usual mode” strengthen the left while also being a waste of time for the left?
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:22 pm

                      “Making stories up?”

                      None of us here know if the story is made up or not.

                      “Repeating an unsubstantiated claim as a categorical truth?”

                      Is there any situation when this is valid?

                      “Holding on to proof as some kind of point (what point)?”

                      What makes you think it’s that rather than what Trinder said about protecting sources?
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:43 pm

                      Here’s the thing: unless it can be substantiated, it’s worse than useless. Remember the “I’ll have the tape shortly” thing about Key and the GCSB? Or anything Garner says?

                      It’ll become just another example the nats use to say the left is just as full of lies as the tories are, even if it’s true. Because we will never know it’s true.

                      If Trinder really is “protecting sources” (actually, he only refers to “my source”, which flies it back to rumour), then he’s a damned fool – if Key made that phone call, then Key knows where he was when he made it, so he has a very good idea of who leaked it (someone in the room with either party, or one of the receptionists if they can conference call). Especially as it only reports key’s side of the conversation. Which also opens the possibility that Key was talking about someone else entirely unless Trinder’s source was party to both sides of the conversation.

                      Easy enough to cull the likely suspects.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:56 pm

                      “Here’s the thing: unless it can be substantiated, it’s worse than useless. Remember the “I’ll have the tape shortly” thing about Key and the GCSB? Or anything Garner says?”

                      Yep, and in general I completely agree with you.

                      “It’ll become just another example the nats use to say the left is just as full of lies as the tories are, even if it’s true. Because we will never know it’s true.”

                      That just takes us back to the assumption that Mana’s objectives and the left’s are the same. My point throughout this is that we are often really bad at understanding what Māori want, so why should it be any different now? That’s leaving aside what Mana is and how it represents at a wider level, and I do think that there are fair criticisms to be made if one views Mana solely as a mainstream political party. I just don’t think that’s the whole story and it would serve the left better to understand more deeply what is going on with Mana rather than just condemning them from the left’s perspecitve. For them I’m guessing it’s the same old stuff.

                      Key doesn’t have to be the only person that the ‘leaker’ needs to be protected from. Plus someone on twitter commented you hear a lot of things in the Koru lounge.

                      And maybe the person heard more of the conversation than the bit that Trinder reported, and that extra bit included better context. It’s all speculation, but I think we can speculate in any direction.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:08 pm

                      If speculation in any direction is equally valid, then the piece has added zero knowledge about Key or the decisions regarding Campbell live.
                    • marty mars …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:05 pm

                      It’s only a waste of time for the left if they focus on it, so don’t.
                    • McFlock …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:43 pm

                      So ignoring a possible lie by an associated party (if only associated via the msm) can strengthen the left?

                      That leads to an obvious hypocrisy the next time anyone on the left demands the tories substantiate their own outlandish claims: ‘why didn’t you demand proof when mana made shit up about us’, that sort of thing.

                      Yeah, nah. Put up or shut up springs to mind. The rumour mongering adds nothing to the issue other than allegations of muckraking and fabrication.
21. Grantoc 21

    13 April 2015 at 8:04 pm

    Trinder is living in a fantasy world.

    If he wants to be taken seriously he’ll put up the evidence.

    To say that Mana news doesn’t have to substantiate anything invites ridicule. I guess Trinder is hoping that they’ll get sued, thereby providing a modicum of credibility to his fantasy. But that won’t happen; he and Mana news will just be ignored, except by those who desperately want this to be explained by such a conspiracy theory.

    The truth is probably as stated; Campbell live is not producing the commercial results required by the company. End of story – despite the very good arguments for retaining the show on the basis of honest and gutsy journalism. But, lets wait for due process to unfold, the show may yet be retained (in some form at least), following the consultation process.
    • Lanthanide 21.1

      13 April 2015 at 8:33 pm

      I think it’s likely John’ll be offered some sort of show on TV3 in some capacity; whether he takes it up is a different matter.
      • felix 21.1.1

        13 April 2015 at 8:37 pm

        Campbell? Or Key? 😀
        • Lanthanide 21.1.1.1

          13 April 2015 at 9:10 pm

          lol
    • freedom 21.2

      13 April 2015 at 8:47 pm

      “Campbell live is not producing the commercial results required by the company.”

      Won’t alter the landscape much, but according to a statement from Campbell Live,
      the show runs at a profit.
    • weka 21.3

      13 April 2015 at 11:32 pm

      “If he wants to be taken seriously he’ll put up the evidence.”

      I think you are missing the point He doesn’t want credibility, he’s stated that openly. So what does that leave? Would be nice of more people thought this through.
22. Clemgeopin 22

    13 April 2015 at 9:36 pm

    The two claims made by Joe Trinder (Key wanting Campbell sacked and Burger King threatening to withdraw ads due to Zero Hour contract stories) are quite explosive. If untrue, then, why doesn’t,
    [1] Key deny the claim and take a defamatory action?
    [2] Burger King issue a statement stating that no such email was sent and take defamatory action?
    • Lanthanide 22.1

      13 April 2015 at 9:53 pm

      Because it’s easier just to ignore the claims than respond to them.
    • TheContrarian 22.2

      13 April 2015 at 10:03 pm

      Because it is so obviously rubbish and fabricated that no-one would be bothered to claim defamation. The holes in the story are so big and obvious the no-one, apart from a few people that don’t seem to have thought it through (“BK could proe me wrong by releasing the email they never sent me” really? Come on) could ever take it seriously.

      I tell you what though – joe sent me email saying this is completely bullshit. Prove me wrong. Joe could prove me wrong by releasing the email….so how full of shit that is?
23. Clemgeopin 23

    13 April 2015 at 10:27 pm

    ” it is so obviously rubbish and fabricated”

    You know that for sure?
    • TheContrarian 23.1

      13 April 2015 at 10:37 pm

      Given his complete failure to substantiate his claims and his complete reversal of the burden of proof speak pretty clearly to the fact there is no evidence to this outside hearsay. Can I know for sure, no. But I can sure a shit call it as bullshit.
      • dave 23.1.1

        14 April 2015 at 6:03 am

        you guys said that about dirty politics it was 100 percent true.
24. Sacha 24

    13 April 2015 at 10:27 pm

    Trinder claims John Key appointed Weldon as CEO of (private company) Mediaworks. That’s stupid enough on its own for me to not accept any of his other reckons without evidence.

    We don’t need some weird conspiracy to explain what’s going on here – it’s a logical outcome of legislating our media to run as a market. The cure is a law change, not tinfoil.
    • weka 24.1

      13 April 2015 at 11:49 pm

      “Trinder claims John Key appointed Weldon as CEO of (private company) Mediaworks. That’s stupid enough on its own for me to not accept any of his other reckons without evidence.”

      I find it entirely credible as a theory. Allowing for differences in use of language (change ‘appointed’ to ‘manipulated the appointment), how is it impossible that Key used his influence to get the CEO he wanted?
      • Sacha 24.1.1

        14 April 2015 at 8:18 am

        If someone believes appointed means the same as influenced, then I have no use for any other words they may utter.
        • weka 24.1.1.1

          14 April 2015 at 9:42 am

          Better stop reading here then. That’s a level of pedantry that obliterates anyone without a formal education in grammar and syntax.

          See I read Trinder’s comment, and assumed that everyone reading knows that Key doesn’t work for Mediaworks and can’t literally appoint anyone there, but equally as obviously has the kind of power and influence that could get his man into the position.

          It’s pretty obvious that Trinder isn’t a master of literacy online. Writing off someone’s political point because they don’t use English in a strictly formal way is elitist. There are ways to criticise what Trinder has done without being that.

          btw, if Trinder is telling the truth, it’s doesn’t require a conspiracy. That’s another red herring, and ‘conspiracy theory’ is being used as an inaccurate slur. All that is required is DP and the neoliberal boys network to operate as it always does.
          • rawshark-yeshe 24.1.1.1.1

            14 April 2015 at 11:00 am

            +100 weka
          • Sacha 24.1.1.1.2

            14 April 2015 at 1:01 pm

            Trinder’s lack of writing skills wasn’t obvious to me. Never read him before. I’m very relaxed about spelling and grammar, but not about mis-using words. Why should I bother with somebody who is that poor at explaining themselves? His ‘political point’ is severely undermined by his refusal to pony up with any evidence. I’d be feeling more patient if he had.
            • weka 24.1.1.1.2.1

              14 April 2015 at 3:55 pm

              “Why should I bother with somebody who is that poor at explaining themselves? ”

              No reason, but you will miss out on a lot of valid perspectives. Not everyone expresses themselves in perfect ways, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth reading/listening to.
              • Sacha …

                14 April 2015 at 4:05 pm

                Using words to mean their common meaning is hardly ‘perfection’. I am very pragmatic about communication but ringing a frog when you really want to discombobulate a passing preacher is a tad handbag, wouldn’t you say?
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 4:20 pm

                  lolz, no, we can agree to disagree on this one. For me the communication is what’s important not the literalness of one word’s meaning and I understood pretty well what he meant.
                  • The lost sheep …

                    14 April 2015 at 4:40 pm

                    “communication is what’s important not the literalness of one word’s meaning”

                    i.e. ‘Conspiracy Theory’ means ‘Truth’, and ‘meaning’ is synonymous with ‘belief’.

                    No need to be any more exact about this case than that. sarc.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:57 pm

                      What? Where’s the conspiracy theory? Or belief?
                    • The lost sheep …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:10 pm

                      “All that is required is DP and the neoliberal boys network to operate as it always does.”

                      A group of people plotting to influence events in a harmful / evil manner.
                      That would be a conspiracy by my Oxford?

                      “I find it entirely credible as a theory”
                      Er, and that’s a theory?
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:16 pm

                      Key using his normal networks to achieve his normal political objectives isn’t conspiring in the way you mean. Calling it a conspiracy theory is just a way of undermining an idea instead actually critiquing it.

                      “I find it entirely credible as a theory”
                      Er, and that’s a theory?

                      Yes, because there is no evidence, it’s theoretical. Doesn’t make it a conspiracy theory for the reasons above.
                    • The lost sheep …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:32 pm

                      Weka, Trinders article stated
                      “The prime minister had insidiously conspired with Mark Weldon”
                      and you posted
                      “I’m willing to believe Trinder on this, or the possibility it’s true.

                      I thought we weren’t getting too hung up on ‘literal meanings’, so what’s the issue with me calling it a conspiracy in the way Trinder states and you agree with and I mean?
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:06 pm

                      Weka, theories propose explanations for evidence or they aren’t theories: without the evidence, there’s nothing to theorise about.

                      Here’s a theory: the National Party deliberately feeds false information to the left, and Trinder is their unwitting dupe.
                    • The lost sheep …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:58 pm

                      That is only if you insist on adhering to so called ‘conventional’ forms of logic OAB.

                      In the realm of Conspiracy Theory, the less so called ‘evidence’ available to support a theory, the more likely it is that ‘believers’ will accept the ‘theory’ as a ‘different trooth’, on the ‘logical’ basis that commonly understood evidence is self evidently wrong because the masses are brainwashed idiots.
                      Thus the lack of ‘evidence’ actually increases the ability to produce valid explanations of events.

                      An endless source of fun at a price all can afford.
25. weka 25

    13 April 2015 at 11:44 pm

    Some posts on the article that have been deleted,

    https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1938/3363/original.jpg

    A point from Trinder about all these people suddenly concerned about Mana News’ reputation and credibility who’ve never read the site before.
    • marty mars 25.1

      14 April 2015 at 12:49 am

      So true that – I wonder about some of the motivations of some who hardly ever read Mana News and now have come out of the woodwork with their righteous proofing – if I was paranoid I’d say some are going into payback – or maybe just putting the boot in because the opportunity is there – oh look how arrrwful that Mana Movement is – such ungrateful poos after all the ‘respect’ we gave them, look they are nothing but losers haw haw haw – and that’s just the so called lefties
26. Tracey 26

    14 April 2015 at 10:23 am

    If it was a phone conversation surely a witness can only verify one of the parties?
    • weka 26.1

      14 April 2015 at 11:13 am

      depends what level of evidence you want I suppose.
      • rawshark-yeshe 26.1.1

        14 April 2015 at 3:40 pm

        Key ( to his travelling secretary/minder): “Get me Mark Weldon please”.

        Key: “Hi Mark etc etc etc etc …. ”

        all kinds of possibilities ?
27. Ashoka's Hell 27

    14 April 2015 at 10:40 am

    Hey Campbell, all the best and thank you. So you were fired for being an investigative journalist (i.e. just doing your job)!

    “If those in charge of our society – politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television – can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.”

    Howard Zinn
28. Charles 28

    14 April 2015 at 11:59 am

    Anyone should be able to tell the claim is satire – particularly sharp satire. Campbell is a left-wing anything? Laughable. That John Key would call someone not left-wing a left-wing anything is probable, also laughable, since John Key has no time to think of anyone but himself, or his mates. Mana News equally satirical claim that they “don’t write balanced articles” is likely, also laughble, since no media outlet writes balanced articles. Mana News make themselves the news, just like Campbell has made himself his own story, and do it in the style of a angry rockband crowd-surfing fans they despise. I recognise the style of sentiment, do you?

    Meanwhile, back in the real world… if the effort to push a person off a cliff makes no sound, did anyone actually fall? And if the person who pushes also owns the ambulance at the bottom of the same cliff, was any crime committed?
    • rawshark-yeshe 28.1

      14 April 2015 at 12:26 pm

      u must enjoy the sound of one hand crapping ? and no, it’s not a typo @Charles.
    • Bill 28.2

      14 April 2015 at 12:50 pm

      🙂
    • Ashoka's Hell 28.3

      14 April 2015 at 3:14 pm

      Nice timing @ Charles,… spooky

      You see my friend its a form of asymmetric warfare. Except in this case the “balance” of the news it’s so far right (across MSM) that it makes freedom of choice or thought laughable.

      NZ Inc has no real left frame of reference…. its been removed, RNZ/TVNZ is practically shot.

      If you think the days are that dark (which I suspect your right – excuse the pun) and people are pushed off the cliff either economically, socially, mentally or even physically (or all of the above) you will have to assume no one is watching or that no one was told? You have to assume that…

      Are you watching Charles…

      I’m a free man too Charles and I think their are more and more people happy to jump off the cliff into the abyss.

      Heres one for you:

      If Marcel Marceau gets hit by a tree in a forest, does anyone hear?

      Go the base jumpers
29. weka 29

    14 April 2015 at 12:31 pm

    New post from Trinder

    To skeptics of the Campbell Live conversation

    avatr Mana News editor Joe Trinder

    Skeptic

    Yesterday I was accused of being a left wing conspiracy theorist loony for not revealing my sources on who overheard the John Campbell conversation. The critics attempted to put Mana News on a pedestal and make comments like “You have let Mana down and the left down”. First off the left is intolerant of Mana Movement- Labour, Greens and NZ First asked its supporters to strategically vote against Hone in the last elections. This honourable left wing you’re talking about is a complete mystery to many within Mana.

    Yesterday was the critics first day they ever discovered the Mana News. Many confessed how genuinely concerned they were about this article and the integrity of Mana News. The feedback was disingenuous because its the first day the critics ever read one of our articles. and the critics always have an opportunity to prove us wrong.

    Mana News doesn’t reveal its sources we protect them, we aren’t professional journalists just amateur bloggers. We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles we ruthlessly expose the corruption in the National government. Our objective was to put the seed of doubt to the public that the National government is tampering with the media and we achieved that.

    Followed by some stuff about gtiso that seems strange to me, but maybe tiso was just the most visible critic that Trinder could use to prove a point.

    http://mananews.co.nz/wp/?p=4420
    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 29.1

      14 April 2015 at 12:33 pm

      Our objective was to put the seed of doubt to the public that the National government is tampering with the media and we achieved that.

      Speaks volumes.

      And Trinder: learn to punctuate.
    • Bill 29.2

      14 April 2015 at 12:53 pm

      When digging yourself into a hole….
    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 29.3

      14 April 2015 at 1:03 pm

      I read the rest of that page and the thing I am thinking about over and over again is what a “pedal stool” looks like and whether it can be used like a bicycle.
      • Colonial Rawshark 29.3.1

        14 April 2015 at 1:37 pm

        Maybe it’s a kind of chair you sit on to press the pedals of a piano.

        It’s disappointing that Mana News has decided to destroy its own credibility and then voluntarily bomb the remaining rubble of that credibility.

        People are hungry for trustworthy, accurate, principled left wing news, IMO. I doubt that they want some kind of Fox News for the Left, however. The gap remains.
        • weka 29.3.1.1

          14 April 2015 at 1:43 pm

          Whereas I think that supposed left wing commenters on a left wing blogsite who think that literacy is worthy of ridicule deserve what they are getting, which as far as I can tell is contempt.

          It’s gobsmacking the number of people here who think that Mana and Mana News should do what is right for the left, all things considered.
          • Bill 29.3.1.1.1

            14 April 2015 at 1:53 pm

            Not buying into this ‘Mana bashing’ bullshit.

            The fact remains that if non-opinion pieces are written, then either shit is made up or facts are presented.

            In my former activist incarnation that was way to the left of Mana or who-ever, when I wrote stuff, I didn’t make shit up. If people want to argue that it’s fine to make up shit, then I really want to hear the argument… before pushing them into the hole that’s waiting for them and picking up my shovel.
            • weka 29.3.1.1.1.1

              14 April 2015 at 2:11 pm

              I have no idea if Trinder made shit up or not, so I can’t really respond to that part of your comment. I certainly haven’t been arguing that it’s ok to make shit up, and don’t know why you’ve brought that up in a reply to me.

              As for Mana bashing, I’ve said a few times now I’m more interested in people’s responses than what Trinder has done. Ridiculing someone for their literacy is pretty naff.

              If you are focussed on the ‘he made shit up’ thing, that actually doesn’t preclude there also being people here who think they know what’s best for Mana when they’re projecting their own stuff about the left onto them. It’s a bit rich given what what happened to Mana at the last election (and all the other stuff).
              • Bill …

                14 April 2015 at 2:17 pm

                Really!? You have no idea? Not an inkling? The guy claims to present facts and then claims there is no need for him to back up his claims. And he might not be making shit up?

                Shades of the ‘Golden Tablets’ there, but sure, okay.
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 3:47 pm

                  Or course he might be making things up. Or he might not. If you think I’ve been saying he’s telling the truth you really haven’t been paying attention to what I’ve been writing.

                  Don’t know what Golden Tablets are.
                  • McFlock …

                    14 April 2015 at 5:16 pm

                    Don’t know what Golden Tablets are.

                    ISTR it’s a reference to one of the prophetic religions (Latter Day Saints?) where the founding prophet dictated the holy text from a set of golden tablets given him by an angel.

                    “Dictated” from the tablets, because only the founder was allowed to see the tablets. Basically, all faith no evidence. Fair enough for religion if you’re in to that sort of thing, but a bit shit when you’re making allegations of political collusion.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:19 pm

                      Yeah, that’s Bill’s spin, not what I’ve been talking about at all.
          • Colonial Rawshark 29.3.1.1.2

            14 April 2015 at 2:00 pm

            Whereas I think that supposed left wing commenters on a left wing blogsite who think that literacy is worthy of ridicule deserve what they are getting, which as far as I can tell is contempt.

            Self styled news editors should be more literate, more talented at prose and more respectful of the truth than ordinary bloggers.

            Don’t you think.
            • weka 29.3.1.1.2.1

              14 April 2015 at 2:04 pm

              No. I think that the group that is trying to work for the betterment of disenfranchised Māori and others should work according to its own values. Trinder has already explained he is a blogger not a journalist. He can write any way he wants, and I have no idea why he writes the way he does (although check out some of lprent’s grammar some time and try telling him that he’s not up to scratch) but the snobbery around literacy in this thread is not improving the left’s credibility.

              /irony.
              • Bill …

                14 April 2015 at 2:12 pm

                Phil Ure…

                On your other point, I guess any backing up of facts has no place in the post modernist vat of ‘shit we make up’ to make sense(lessness) of the world, one another and events.
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 2:28 pm

                  As far as I know (am happy to be corrected) pu doesn’t have literacy issues, and isn’t overworked and thus not editing his comments (which is my guess about Lynn). Pu intentionally writes in a style that a significant number of people have trouble reading. I have no problem with that at all when he does it on his own blog, but when he does it here and it affects communication, then yeah, it’s a problem. I’d like to see the argument made that Trinder’s writing style affects people’s understanding of what he is trying to communicate.

                  “On your other point, I guess any backing up of facts has no place in the post modernist vat of ‘shit we make up’ to make sense(lessness) of the world, one another and events.”

                  I only made one point (it was all about literacy), so I have no idea what you are talking about. I hope you’re not ascribing something to me that I didn’t say (I don’t think making shit up is ok, so again, why bring that up with me?).
                  • Bill …

                    14 April 2015 at 2:58 pm

                    So far on this thread you have brought up an absence of demands for evidence; comparing TRP post to Trinder’s, even though the two don’t bear comparison. Made some references to people indulging in Mana bashing and Maori bashing , made some (to me) strange comment on world perspectives that would apparently allow for some to not bother supplying basic levels of verification on claims being made, compared the trustworthiness of Trinder and Peters, commented on KDC, suggested that what Trinder has written is A-Ok because…well, I got lost on that point…

                    …and so, so much more besides.

                    I get that one point or another has more or less prominence depending on what segment of the thread is being read, though on a big picture reading, they don’t exist in silos and tend to feed into one another on various levels.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:48 pm

                      You said ‘on your other point’. I have no idea what point you are referring to, and giving me synopsis of what you think are all the things I’ve been saying in this thread doesn’t narrow it down.

                      “suggested that what Trinder has written is A-Ok because”

                      How about you point to that one specifically?

                      btw, ‘bashing’ is your term, not mine. ‘Māori bashing’ is a loaded term that makes it harder to look at what might be happening here.
              • te reo putake …

                14 April 2015 at 2:18 pm

                The real irony is a media spokesperson who can’t write properly and happily admits that what he does write can’t be trusted! It’s hard not to raise an eyebrow in those circumstances.

                But, I do agree with you about literacy in a general sense. And I think most commenters here also agree and are pretty relaxed about typos and grammatical clangers when they appear on the pages of TS. Most mistakes simply get ignored and its the ideas that get discussed, not the pedantic errors.
                • weka …

                  14 April 2015 at 2:23 pm

                  Yes, which is why ridiculing Trinder over literacy in this context is really off. Have a go at his politics by all means, but don’t have a go at someone’s literacy as a way of undermining them because you don’t liek their politics (or behaviour).

                  “The real irony is a media spokesperson who can’t write properly and happily admits that what he does write can’t be trusted! It’s hard not to raise an eyebrow in those circumstances.”

                  It’s not ironic. Have you considered that Trinder might have actual literacy issues? And that Mana may not have a large pool of more acceptably literate people to draw on? And that literacy correctness might not be high on their list of concerns?

                  I don’t have a problem with eyebrow raising. I think there is something else going on here as well
                  • te reo putake …

                    14 April 2015 at 2:34 pm

                    I have considered it. And it’s obviously the case that he does write poorly. But that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t articulate the views of mana or be taken any less seriously than any other party’s media wonks.

                    The real issue is credibility. He’s admitted that he cannot be trusted to write factually. Now, that really is an issue for mana. Is it credible to have a “news editor” who does not feel obliged to tell the truth?

                    I know it works for National, but have we lowered our standards that far?
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:36 pm

                      “He’s admitted that he cannot be trusted to write factually”

                      Can you point to where exactly? I hadn’t interpreted it that way.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 2:49 pm

                      “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles … “
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:37 pm

                      Interesting. I don’t take that to mean he cannot be trusted to write factually, and having reread it a couple of times I think it’s still entirely possible he didn’t mean that. Which leaves us with why each of interpreted it differently.
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 3:47 pm

                      Yeah I’m struggling to interpret that as meaning “not factual”.

                      I suppose it could be construed to mean that but in context it seems unlikely to me that he did mean that, and unless he actually says so I see no reason to assume that’s what he meant as it’s not the most obvious reading of it by any stretch.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:03 pm

                      http://www.epmu.org.nz/journalist-code-of-ethics/

                      The first three words:

                      Respect for truth

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code) then my point is correct. They cannot be trusted to write factually.

                      Like it or not, Trinder has exposed mana as being untrustworthy. That doesn’t mean the overheard conversation didn’t happen, but it does mean that we can’t trust what they say, because they don’t think that ethical reporting applies to them. According to Trinder, anyway.

                      Frankly, Trinder should resign. Any other media person who made a statement that so obviously brings their organisation into disrepute would be sacked in a heartbeat.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:16 pm

                      But Trinder isn’t a journalist, he’s a blogger. He didn’t say he didn’t have respect for the truth, he said “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules.”

                      I can tell you I don’t write with a journalist’s code of ethics in mind either. Does that mean I’m untrustworthy?
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:37 pm

                      “I can tell you I don’t write with a journalist’s code of ethics in mind either. Does that mean I’m untrustworthy?”

                      As a private individual shooting the breeze, no, it doesn’t mean you’re untrustworthy. The code of ethics clearly does not apply.

                      However, if you are the News Editor of a political party, yes, that makes you untrustworthy. And if you publicly insist your party is equally untrustworthy, then you are a liability as well.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 4:50 pm

                      You say he’s a News Editor of a political party, he says he’s not a journalist he’s a blogger. Who gets to decide?
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:05 pm

                      He decides. He calls himself the News Editor, so I’ve gone with how he styles himself.
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:12 pm

                      that’s disingenuous TRP.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:27 pm

                      Wha? How can it be disingenuous if it’s 100% correct? That’s literally what he calls himself. Check the link in the OP.

                      Ha! Even better, check the link you yourself provided! Mana News editor Joe Trinder, that’s what it says there too.

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/i-want-that-left-wing-bastard-gone/#comment-999911
                    • weka …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:30 pm

                      ffs, I’m pretty sure you’ve already read the bit where he says he’s not a journalist he’s a blogger. You can use the term ‘News Editor’ to mean what you want it to mean rather than what he wants it to mean, and then you have him in a box that suits you, but like I said, he doesn’t see himself that way.
                    • Sacha …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:41 pm

                      “You can use the term ‘News Editor’ to mean what you want it to mean”

                      No, you really can’t. Language is a dance, but it does have some parameters. You don’t get to decide what words mean on your lonesome – that’s a social and historic process.

                      Those two words have had a well-defined and shared meaning for many decades. The first one especially. If someone wishes to cloak themselves with the phrase then they get all the implications and expectations, not just the extra credibility they may have been seeking.

                      Highly relevant though in a discussion about what “news” and “current affairs” has become. Just entertainment, the PM assures us.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 5:53 pm

                      But he does see himself that way! Joe Trinder is the news editor of mana news, according to mana news news editor Joe Trinder.

                      Unless of course you’re a believer in the John Key theory of hats.
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:15 pm

                      TRP:

                      The first three words:

                      Respect for truth

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code) then my point is correct.

                      You’ve taken someone saying they’re not bound by a certain code, and you’ve interpreted that to mean that they reject everything in that code.

                      That could be the case, but I don’t think I’ll take it on your say-so.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:27 pm

                      “You’ve taken someone saying they’re not bound by a certain code, and you’ve interpreted that to mean that they reject everything in that code.”

                      No, felix, no, I haven’t. A better summary might be that they appear to think they can pick and choose when they tell the truth and when they can “bend the rules”.
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:35 pm

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code)

                      What am I missing here, TRP?

                      How is that not doing exactly what I described above?
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:40 pm

                      What are you missing? The meaning of the word ‘obliged’, I’m guessing.
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 6:58 pm

                      No, that’s not it.

                      When I’m baking, I’m not obliged to follow Escoffier.

                      According to your logic, this means I can’t make cakes.
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:00 pm

                      Yeah, you win. I’m totally convinced. mana should be free to lie any time they want and that’s totally ethical, man. Sorry for any confusion. Good luck with the cakes.
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:04 pm

                      I didn’t say I agreed with any of that.

                      Doesn’t mean I have to go along with your obvious bullshit as well though.

                      The dishonesty you’ve shown in the last few comments is just amazing considering the subject of the thread. You should probably think about how that reflects on “the left” 🙄
                    • te reo putake …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:06 pm

                      Actually, bud, you’ve pretty much not said anything that makes any sense. But y’know, whatev’s.

                      Muffins ahoy!
                    • felix …

                      14 April 2015 at 7:22 pm

                      It’s actually pretty straightforward, but you do need to be able to read what’s in front of you without leaping to conclusions.

                      I can see why you found it challenging.
30. freedom 30

    14 April 2015 at 1:18 pm

    In related news
    “John Key dismisses Campbell Live as entertainment”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11432397

    In an unexpected move, the reporter strategically refrains from
    seeking the PM’s opinion on what Seven Sharp is. sarc
    • repateet 30.1

      14 April 2015 at 2:50 pm

      Had the reporter asked that question, the PM could have simply looked behind, down low, and asked “What do you reckon Mike?’
31. Sable 31

    15 April 2015 at 6:58 pm

    Irrespective of whether Key has a role in this or not its my opinion that this is most certainly an attempt to silence any voices raised in opposition to the right wing propaganda that is the MSM in NZ.

    Much the same thing happened to Derryn Hinch in Australia for rocking the righties boat.
32. SMILIN 32

    17 April 2015 at 12:55 pm

    It really is a sad day for NZ’s democracy that party politics can destroy the right to the truth or public inquiry thru the media
    It really shows just how little power we have as a voter to hold an enquiry into the policies of our govt and the possibility of totalitarian actions bythe PM.

Links to post

1. Trinder’s Key/Campbell conspiracy | Your NZ: posted on 13 April 2015 at 8:10 pm
2. The Standard promotes proofless conspiracy | Your NZ: posted on 14 April 2015 at 6:58 am

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