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John Key – the White Ribbon Ambassador

Written By: - Date published: 12:03 pm, December 28th, 2015 - 278 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, discrimination, gender, john key, patriarchy, sexism - Tags: , , ,

The focus of the 2015 White Ribbon Campaign is “respectful relationships”, what does that mean when you are the Prime Minister? In light of recent and historical events surrounding John Key, White Ribbon need to take a long hard look at whether he is still suitable to be an ambassador for the organisation.
The ponytail saga shows that John Key “behaved like a bully” toward waitress, Amanda Bailey, pulling her “tantalising” ponytail repeatedly when he visited her work place ,and continued this behaviour for months, even after he was asked to stop. Key described the situation as “just horsing around” – ironically horse tails look like pony tails. I wonder if there is another ‘tale’ to tell here? It later transpired that Key’s creepy ponytail adventures also involved children.

His involvement in the “prison rape” stunt was brushed off, firstly as being in the “spirit of Christmas” and secondly that he was “unaware of the joke’s meaning”. Anyone with half a brain would pick up on the ‘joke’ as it was developing, and I doubt Key is that naive.

The prison rape ‘joke’ comes only weeks after John Key accuses the opposition of “backing the rapists” in a political stunt designed to justify the treatment of New Zealanders in Australian detention centres. In this context he is using ‘rape’ to gain support for not intervening when New Zealanders are being treated like second class citizens. Not one of the New Zealanders being held are rapists but that didn’t stop Key from labelling them thus

Then there was the refusal to apologise over the handling of the Malaysian Diplomat who followed Tania Billingsly home, defecated in her garden and then walked into her house pant-less to then indecently assault her . Mr Key did not believe the incident was serious enough to warrant an apology from his office.

The Mike Sabin debacle is also worth a mention in this situation. He was under investigation for offences of a ‘violent’ nature, resulting in speculation about how much the Prime Minister knew and when. If Key knew about the nature of the investigation it appears he may have kept quiet and did nothing, which are surely not actions becoming of a White Ribbon Ambassador.

We also shouldn’t forget lack of action on the ‘roast busters’ case, cutting back on services for victims of sexual violence and the list goes on. This demonstrates what Metiria Turei calls a “pattern of behaviour”. He is a Prime Minister with “no moral compass”.

While this is just a small example of Key’s overt behaviour , it indicates something is sadly amiss with this man, each incident, each action, shows a wider “pattern of behaviour” that should have White Ribbon squirming about Key’s involvement as an ambassador.

As an ‘ambassador’ for the White Ribbon Campaign, he is supposed to be a role model. One has to wonder what he is modelling to men in New Zealand? That rape is a joke, that it is okay to victimise women and children, it is okay to refuse to apologise when your inaction distresses victims of violence?

Of course there are the more insidious forms of violence and oppression that John Key and his Government perpetuate on a regular basis.One of the more recent examples of the systemic violence promulgated against citizens (particularly women and children) is the accusation that poor people are poor because they take drugs. We already know that this is just another spin to taint the minds of kiwis and further alienate those affected by poverty http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/four-mistakes-prove-key-clueless-about-poverty . Any excuse not addressing poverty, and every excuse to blame the poor.

Whether some like to believe it or not, this type of spin is abusive. It is designed to oppress people, it is designed to have others believe things about a particular group in order to justify that oppression (a bit like the Nazis did and what Donald Trump is doing now). This type of oppression is psychological abuse http://whiteribbon.org.nz/about/key-messages/. Just like victims of violence and abuse it causes victims to have “low self-esteem, loss of personal identity, fear, powerlessness, suppression of anger, alienation and isolation, and guilt or ambivalence” (Geraldine Moane, 1999).

This raises a dilemma for White Ribbon who utilise the Duluth Power and Control Wheel to identify abusive behaviour , at what point will they recognise that one of their ambassadors is complicit in the institutional violence and abuse of thousands of New Zealanders. While the abuse may not be occurring in the context of a domestic relationship, the abuse is more insidious because the Prime Minister is using his power and influence to abuse multiple victims and garner support for this systemic abuse and oppression by misinforming the wider public about the reasons behind the increased levels of poverty in New Zealand.

In my opinion, John Key’s known actions tick just about every type of abuse on the Power and Control wheel. Not only are his overt behaviours questionable, his covert methods identify him as someone who uses his position to disseminate misinformation in order to vilify a select group of people. In my book those are the actions of an abuser.

Kōrero Pono

278 comments on “John Key – the White Ribbon Ambassador ”

  1. Bea Brown 1

    Great to start the New Year with more Key Derangement. Keep up the good work! We need all the laughs we can get.

    • RedLogix 1.1

      Bea … I take it then you fully support and condone Key’s activities as mentioned in this post?

      Or do you accept that ponytail pulling other adults is not acceptable, but you are going to defend Key all the same?

      Or do you simply have no possible argument to defend Key so you’re going for a distraction instead?

    • Paul 1.2

      Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.

    • OneTrack 1.3

      But Bea, although it hasn’t worked for the last 7 years, it will work “this” time. The alternative is too scary to contemplate – having to think up detailed socialist policies that will work in practice.

      • weka 1.3.1

        You seem to be missing the point. This isn’t about John Key the leader of the National Party. It’s not about the next general election. It’s about NZ’s hugely problematic culture of violence, particularly sexual violence and the fact that the Prime Minister of NZ supports rape and violence culture and actively participates in institutional violence. I’m not surprised this has escaped your attention, but we are in fact doing well in regards to addressing this. That is what this post is about (IMO), addressing violence irrespective of who is in power.

        • Tracey7

          Plus lots…

        • fisiani

          Your words after The Prime Minister of New Zealand are classical signs of [RL: Deleted] If you are serious then you do not understand the words “supports” and “violence”. [RL Deleted.]

          [RL: Repeating derivative and boring crap will earn a ban. Baseless insinuations about mental health likewise.]

          • weka

            is that the best you can do troleboy? It’s like you’re all not even trying. We need better wingnuts.

            edit, snap RL. Good moderating.

          • fisiani

            Is FJK derivite and boring crap? Just asking.Not criticising.I note that was not deleted.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Nah, it’s the equivalent of the centre-right’s vile misogynist attacks on Helen Clark, only less revealing of low character.

              Fuck John Key. Not exactly an attack on his marriage is it? How about you suck it up, hypocrite.

            • Tracey

              How about you address this, directly, and truthfully

              28 December 2015 at 4:36 pm

              Can you post your sources for the following not being a fact

              “…there was the refusal to apologise over the handling of the Malaysian Diplomat who followed Tania Billingsly home, defecated in her garden and then walked into her house pant-less to then indecently assault her . Mr Key did not believe the incident was serious enough to warrant an apology from his office.”

              It would have been even more factual if it included that he did want to apologise if he knew the victims name leading the victim to eschew her right to privacy, only to have him reneg once her privacy was gone. WHAT A GUY

    • Gangnam Style 1.4

      I bet you do! Kicking the poor only gives you chuckles.

    • mary_a 1.5

      @Bea Brown (1) – Not funny when you are the victim of FJK’s debauched behaviour, which is not acceptable in any circumstances, PM or not!

      FJK is a typical gutless predator, preying on the vulnerable, using his position of power to abuse and ridicule those who he knows are unable to retaliate!

    • Grace Miller 1.6

      A sexual fetishist with a hair-pulling habit is our PM. It’s not funny, it’s very disturbing and sad that this piece of scum has floated all the way to the top.

      Key is deranged, all right.

  2. Ffloyd 2

    Poor Bea. Still a little saddo and no wiser. John Key is an abusive bully hiding behind his position *of power* I take it you watch him in action in Parliament. Constantly playing the man because he never has intelligent coherent answers to questions asked. Therefore he resorts to abuse. Quite often personal, because he knows simpering Carter will let him run off at the mouth. He lies, he distorts the truth and when called to account he runs away, to reappear when the Herald makes up some *what a wonderful PM we have in John Key* story. You are sadly deluded in your unaccountable worship of Key and I feel very sorry for you.

  3. fisiani 3

    Bea is correct. The Key Derangement Syndrome is caused by viewing everything that John Key does in the most negative light. Whatever he says or does not say, whatever he does or does not do are intrepreted here as repugnant. Given that you and I are part of the 64% of NZ who think he is the best PM you can see that the contrary view is held by a deluded minority. The disproportionate vehemence of the abuse of John Key is the main feaure of Key Derangement Syndrome. It is also meted out to the realists who hold the view of the majority. Of course the Left despise the majority of New Zealand and are contemptuous of their beliefs. Despite this the support for National and John Key remains stratospheric. Each time it is heard by the public there is a rise in the polls for John Key.

    • One Two 3.1

      Irony, lies and deflection. Good job

      Fortunately, most will understand the difference between ‘ an abuser’, and commenting on the actions of that abuser

      Good article

    • Korero Pono 3.2

      Fisiani I love how people such as yourself and Bea develop new labels to deviate from the facts outlined in the above OP. Labeling is in this case is designed to suggest there is something wrong with people who do not think that JK is ‘lad’ simply ‘horsing around’. This process is highlighted on the Power and Control Wheel, under minimising, denying and blaming – minimising the problem, denying the problem and blaming others for the problem. I also think it highly predictable that people such as yourself try to label others as abusive (poor JK, all those ‘tantalasing’ pony tails and the man must now control himself because people noticed his unusual behaviour). Regardless of the labels people such as yourself like to attach to anyone able to see through JK’s veneer, the facts speak for themselves.

      • fisiani 3.2.1

        The Above OP does not contain any facts. Just deluded opinion caused by Key Derangement Syndrome. Read it again.

        • RedLogix

          The first sentence of the OP is:

          The focus of the 2015 White Ribbon Campaign is “respectful relationships”,

          Do you have any evidence this is NOT a fact?

          • fisiani

            Are you trying to say that John Key is somehow disrespectful? Seriously? The Derangement Sydrome is strong in you.

            • RedLogix

              Do you accept that the first sentence of the OP is a fact .. contrary to your assertion above that the OP “does not contain any facts”?

              • fisiani

                Read the whole sentence, not just the excerpt. Of course it not a factual sentence.

                • RedLogix

                  I did read the whole sentence. The first part states:

                  The focus of the 2015 White Ribbon Campaign is “respectful relationships”

                  Logically if it IS a fact then your comment at 3.2.1 is wrong.

                  On the other hand if you want to claim that because of the second part of the sentence:

                  what does that mean when you are the Prime Minister?

                  that if something does not meaning anything to John Key … then by definition it is NOT a fact?

            • Paul

              Isn’t participating in rape jokes disrespectful?

            • Wensleydale

              Last time I checked, repeatedly touching up waitresses without their express permission, and especially after they’ve indicated such behaviour is profoundly unwelcome, is the very definition of “disrespectful”. Actually, it’s probably borderline criminal. I mean, if I walked into Kmart and began randomly groping female staff, I suspect I’d be swiftly detained pending an awkward conversation with the police.

              But hey, it was all just “horseplay” and he did so generously compensate her with a bottle of plonk. What a guy!

              • Esoteric Pineapples

                I know of a man who had a two year tresspass notice served on him by the police for consistently trying to have conversation with a young female checkout operator in a supermarket. If Key wasn’t the PM this is the least of what would have happened to him.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Actually, it’s probably borderline criminal.

                It’s not borderline but actually criminal. That was pointed out way back when it first came to light. Such actions as the PM’s count as assault.

                IMO, if we had good laws in NZ that were properly enforced the entire National led government would be in jail on various charges most of which would be corruption charges.

                • Madeleine

                  Don’t I come from the most important bloodline on this planet (actually the most important bloodline in this whole Universe), descended from Isis Herself. I have Her blood – Divine Blood.

                  I can’t be killed, can I? You try, but you fail ‘EVERY SINGLE TIME’.

                  I have Her blood, and “I have Her Eye”.

                  Isn’t it odd that I just bumped into I.W, funny that, I just handed him this case, funny that, isn’t that FUNNY?

            • Tracey

              Yes. You reckon promising to apologise to a crime victim if only he knew her name, leading directly to her dropping her right to privacy, and then changing your mind, is respectful? What a sad little fellow you are.

              Your desperation to defend the indeensible would be laughable if it werent so pitiful.

            • In Vino

              I thought that the post pointed out exactly that point – that Key has no respect. And I have read it again. (By their deeds shall ye know them, and Keys deeds tell far more than his empty words.)

        • The Other Mike

          You do not supply examples of ANY incorrect “facts” Fisi.. which may actually give rise to KDS.

          We need the lies pointed out and attributed.

          Otherwise all you post is hyperbole and deflection.

          As usual.

        • Trey

          The only people with Key Derangement Syndrome are you and Bea, Fisiani. You are either blinded by it or are prepared to turn a blind eye to his lack of humanity because of your derangement. John Key is a corrupt little man who assaualts women at their place of work and covers up for paedophiles and wife beaters in his own party. I couldn’t care less if you vote for National Fisiani. There are probably some really good people in the party who genuinely believe that they are doing the best for New Zealand but John Key is not one of them. That you continue to defend him shows you up as the deranged one. It reminds me of the story of Emperors new clothes. You and your fellow key sycophant sheeple surely must know by now that your “emperor” is naked. I thought the Mike Sabin affair would have woken you up but unfortunately you are too gutless to do something about it because to do so would be to admit to having had the wool pulled over your eyes for 7 years. Unless you condone what he does. I admit I have always voted labour but that has never stopped me recognising when they were wrong or speaking out against the likes of Roger Douglas. Political loyalty should not get in the way of personal integrity. You however lack the moral fortitude to even consider that your dear leader is less than perfect. So who has Key Derangement Sydrome Again?

        • Tracey

          Is this not a statement of fact.

          Then there was the refusal to apologise over the handling of the Malaysian Diplomat who followed Tania Billingsly home, defecated in her garden and then walked into her house pant-less to then indecently assault her . Mr Key did not believe the incident was serious enough to warrant an apology from his office.

          It would have been even more factual if it included that he did want to apologise if he knew the victims name leading the victim to eschew her right to privacy, only to have him reneg once her privacy was gone. WHAT A GUY

    • Paul 3.3


    • Tracey 3.4

      He is not at 64%. He dropped into the 40s. Is 40s not sufficient that you have to pretend its much higher.

      Now address the behaviours outlined in relation to the power wheel

      • Magisterium 3.4.1

        Herald Digipoll, December 2015

        Preferred PM

        John Key 65.2% (+1.5%)

        • Tracey

          Thanks for the correction.

          It makes it even more important that he chooses his words and behaviours wisely given the power they hold.

          I recall, the rightful, outrage at the suggestion in a song lyric that his child should be raped. He needs to consider ALL victims or soon to be victims when he speaks or behaves in ways that could send the wrong message. Afterall if he doesnt understand somethings he is involved in then it is likely some NZers who lime him will misunderstad things he says or does.

          It should bother compassionate folks that a guy who has marked issues with boundaries around inappropriate power and sexual behaviours is so liked.

        • One Two

          Because a digi poll could not possibly be manipulated

          The entire system of political media is a con job designed to support the con job, which is government

        • Puddleglum

          Or forty percent.

          Or thirty-nine and a half percent.

          And, historically, the Herald Digipoll has always given Key more than 20 points greater than other polls in the Preferred Prime Minister polling.

    • Stuart Munro 3.5

      Key is a lousy PM – so why do you support him? Because he produces high faked poll numbers?

      He’s an economic disaster and a moral void, and NZ being a democracy I DEMAND SOMETHING BETTER.

      It’s only in totalitarian states that kissing the tyrant’s arse is mandatory, Fisi.

    • Lanthanide 3.6

      “Given that you and I are part of the 64% of NZ who think he is the best PM you can see that the contrary view is held by a deluded minority. ”

      Not deliberately trying to Godwin here, but Hitler was also a very popular politician.

      Being popular doesn’t make you right.

      • Puddleglum 3.6.1

        This is an important point.

        Some on the right who comment here appear to think that all the posts are about the left ‘trying to win’ and, therefore, are somehow ‘wrong’ because Key and National remain popular.

        It says a lot about the perceptual set of such commenters.

        • RedLogix

          Well in their world the equations are pretty simple: “popularity = power” and therefore “power = truth”.

          We see this when they apply it to climate science. It doesn’t matter that 97% of people qualified to an opinion support the evidence … what counts to them is keeping enough voters (and non-experts) sufficiently confused and uncertain to ensure the idea of taking action never becomes popular.

          Of course democratic popularity is only a means to an end. Place them in a totalitarian setting … or give them the opportunity to subvert a democratic one with money … and democracy be damned. Power is all, power justifies all.

          • Puddleglum

            Yes, power is the ultimate currency that is recognised everywhere.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Place them in a totalitarian setting … or give them the opportunity to subvert a democratic one with money … and democracy be damned. Power is all, power justifies all.


            Authoritarians will do anything for power, do atrocious things once they’ve got it and their lickspittles will defend them no mater what.

      • Tracey 3.6.2

        Yup. being popular is NOT the same as being a good or great Leader.

    • Macro 3.7

      So you and Bea are also complicit in this disgraceful and abusive behaviour – think about it – it boils down to nothing more than support for rapists!
      You might have a handle which you claim is sanctified – but you like Bea and Key – appear to be completely lacking in anything resembling a moral compass.

    • Grace Miller 3.8

      Make that an ‘I’ statement, fis…. I, for one, am appalled at the level of corruption, cronyism, arrogance and deceit that has characterised this government; it’s certainly the most corrupt I’ve ever seen in my beautiful country, and I’ve seen a few now. I am not one of the 64% and never will be.

      He’s a self-serving, banal, corrupt and lying piece of shit, imo. Glad to be one of the ‘rabid’ detractors! 😉

  4. Tautuhi 4

    JK is a bit of a lad really, all round kiwi bloke best mates with Ritchie, most Kiwi’s would enjoy having a beer with him round the barbie, he appeals to the average kiwi.

    He has dragged NZ out of the GFC to become a Rockstar Economy and he is the most prefferred PM ever in the country’s history, must be doing something right.

    • Ffloyd 4.1

      Tautihi. As per *most kiwis* speak for yourself. Not for me. I absolutely disagree with everything you have written. You are entitled to your opinions but they are not mine. Or is this sarcasm?

      • OneTrack 4.1.1

        “Most kiwis” as measured by a free and open election last year, chose Key and his team over the horrors of a Labour, Green, NZ First, Mana, Internet Party hard-left socialist nightmare, in which free money would be given to beneficiaries, immigrants and criminals, and taken from the pockets of middle class working kiwis.

        • maui

          The free and open election where as many people don’t vote as those who vote for the government?

          • Magisterium

            They sensibly chose not to vote for a Labour, Green, NZ First, Mana, Internet Party disaster.

        • maui

          You mean money might be redistributed to help everyone to function better in society, rather than a tax cut for those who can afford it.

        • sabine

          most kiwis


          1 million voted for Key
          1 million voted for the Labour Party, The Greens, NZF, Mana and others
          1 million did not vote at all

          most kiwis. Yeah, right Tui.

        • Korero Pono

          A significant number of Kiwis did not vote, if they had it is likely that Key and his ‘partners’ would not be in power now.

          I wonder if the significant number of ‘poor’ and young people who did not vote was due to feeling isolated and disenfranchised, they’ve simply given up on thinking things will change for them? After all, they have been hearing how useless they are for quite some years now (thanks to media, politicians and every citizen who blames their state on being lazy, useless, druggies etc etc). Abuse victims go through a very similar type of psychological withdrawal, acceptance and belief that they have no control, they even believe that they are useless, unworthy of better etc etc. It can take some time and considerable effort to shift their thinking from acceptance of abuse to realising that it is not okay and they can do something about it. I imagine the institutional abuse that many of the non-voters have been subject to will require a similar journey.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            As Blabbermouth Lusk’s indiscretions revealed, decreased voter participation is a National Party strategy.

    • RedLogix 4.2

      While ‘most’ kiwis would enjoy having a beer with John Key, the survey omitted to indicate where they would like to insert it.

      • fisiani 4.2.1

        Can you not see the incredible hypocrisy of your use of the word INSERT in a post about allegedly inappropriate language. I despair.

        • RedLogix

          Oh dear fisiani can’t take a liddle joke? You poor dear … here have another beer and relax.

          • Naturesong

            I’m not particularly enthusiastic about what you have inferred either.

            But at least I now know to place less weight on any comments you might make about abuse.

            • RedLogix

              You and fisiani make a lovely pair…. of mealy-mouthed hypocrites.

              • Please back up your assertion that I’m a mealy mouthed hypocrite.

                Clicking on my name will return every comment I have made on the Standard.

                • RedLogix

                  It’s really simple NatureSong. I’m not the Prime Minister. I didn’t stand for public office, assuming the power, privilege and pay to lead and represent the nation.

                  I don’t get free spots on talk-back radio to schmooze the masses, I don’t get press conferences from which I can impose my ideas, nor the opportunity to set public and ministerial policy. My beliefs and behaviour are only of very modest interest to a very few people indeed.

                  I’m the usual mass of contradictions and moods all ordinary people are made of. I don’t pretend to be consistent, polite or even reasonable all of the time. And especially I’m not an ‘ambassador’ for White Ribbon. I’m just not that good a person.

                  Moreover as lprent has consistently pointed out .. The Standard is a place of robust debate where mealy-mouthed politeness does not necessarily cut mustard. I should know … I can be the master of it myself. And I’ll piss on it if I fucking want to without taking too much consideration of tut-tutting from someone pretending they’re all purity itself.

                  Have a nice day.

                  • So,
                    1. not ok for the PM (or Minister of Justice) to make jokes about abuse or rape.

                    We agree on this.

                    2. that you have every right yourself to make light of abuse or infer that a great many people would like to insert a beer into the PM somewhere

                    Again, we’re agreed.

                    3. that inferring large numbers of Nzer’s would like to insert a beer into the PM while at the same time agreeing with the main points of the post is the very definition of hypocrisy and undoes any credibility you may have on the subject.

                    On this you disagree.
                    Fair enough, I imagine they’re difficult words to hear.

                    • RedLogix

                      Point 3 is what happens when you take metaphors literally.

                      Strawman city.

                    • weka

                      metaphors and jokes.

                      It’s always a bad idea to use violence metaphors in political discussions about violence.

                    • Point 3 is what happens when you take metaphors literally.

                      The web offers no shortage of people who take things too literally. On the plus side, they often provide unintentional comedy.

                    • Unable to reply to RedLogix, but this is to respond to his comment here.

                      I think you’ve lost your way.

                      A metaphor is where a situation unrelated to the real thing is compared to a real thing in order give greater meaning to the real thing

                      i.e. John Keys Govt is drowning in a sea of debt.
                      the real situation being John Keys govt and debt, the drowning and other watery language is the unrelated situation that gives greater or more poetic meaning.

                      It’s possible I’ve missed it, but cant see what you wrote as a metaphor; While ‘most’ kiwis would enjoy having a beer with John Key, the survey omitted to indicate where they would like to insert it..

                      Could you clarify?

                    • RedLogix

                      John Key … or more accurately, everything he represents … is raping our planet.

                      There’s another metaphor for you NatureSong. In comparison my wee gyve above is .. dare I say it … very small beer indeed.

                      I’ve spent much of the past few days catching up on my reading in the topic. Everything I know and love is now desperately at risk from these fuckers and their unmitigated greed; but thank you for your concern. You are really a very nice person, and I am most definitely not. Not when I’m this angry.

                    • Madeleine

                      STOP WORRYING.

                      I already know the ‘outcome’.

                      ‘Party Smarty’ baby.

                      You are FINE.

                      We both ARE FINE.

                      If these people want to challenge God, then they will have egg on their faces.

                      She controls ALL FATE ON THIS PLANET.

                      Ha Ha Ha.

                      My eye ‘died’ to ‘symbolise’ something, what is it symbolising?

                      THERE IS ‘ONE QUEEN’.

                      Stop worrying!

                    • RedLogix

                      The Maid of Heaven is always with us.

                  • Anne

                    Touché .

                    I’ve placed your comment for future reference in my folder Redlogix -next time someone blows on me because I’ve had the temerity to speak my mind – no holds barred. 🙂

                    • Glad you learnt something.

                      I missed it.
                      Could you explain to me how Redlogix and John Keys language are metaphors? And for what?

                    • Anne

                      @ naturesong

                      I was replying to Redlogix further up the line. The first comment of his after yours @ Nothing to do with the metaphors.

                      The order of comments went astray and numbers have disappeared.

                      Btw, Madeleine was Marie yesterday. 😕

                    • Ah, the ad hominem.


                    • Anne

                      What the hell are you on about now Naturesong. The comment I was replying to begins… It’s really simple Naturesong… @3:52pm. I have empathy with RL’s disposition.

                      Ahhh the edited bit about “Madeleine”. Just a general observation mate. Nothing to do with you.

          • nakiman

            RedLogix thinks raping a man with a beer bottle is a joke, appalling hypocrisy.

            • RedLogix

              Jeeze mate … if your that outraged at a non-entity like me making a wee joke in bad taste …. how upset must you be at the Prime Minister being involved in a prison rape joke, in a cage, on public radio?

              I can only imagine how offended and upset you are. Must be tough being a Nat supporter sometimes. Feel for ya.

        • sabine

          dear fisiani,

          really that is much outrage for such a simple word.

          Word Origin and History for insert Expand
          “to set in, put or place in,” 1520s, from insert, past participle of Middle English inseren “to set in place, to graft, to introduce (into the mind)” (late 14c.), from Latin inserere “to put in, implant,” from in- “in” (see in- (2)) + serere “join together” (see series ). Related: Inserted ; inserting. The noun meaning “something inserted” is from 1893.

          • McFlock

            Fiz probably thinks it’s sexual.
            Never under-estimate just how far tory kicks can go 🙂

    • Incognito 4.3

      In my opinion John Key’s image of being “one of us” is carefully crafted and at the same time I believe that he exhibits pseudo-isothymia, which is a fake or false need to be recognised as merely equal to us, while hiding his true or real megalothymia, which is the need to recognised as superior to us (and to be popular and liked!).

      Now before you get all up in arms about this let me say that I think John Key is an exceptional individual and that he excels at almost all he does. In many ways he is right to feel superior to (most of) us. He likes to be in control, and he usually is in control, no matter what situation (with a few relatively rare exceptions).

      Even in situations that I personally would find mortifying (and thus cringe worthy – perhaps I am projecting some of my personal unease and discomfort on Key?) he is in almost absolute control of himself and he exudes self-confidence & -assurance and self-belief.

      John Key seems to simultaneously display pseudo-isothymia and megalothymia depending on the “perceptual set” of the ‘observer’ [thanks Puddleglum @ 3.6.1]. Quite an admirable feat and only few, it seems, have quite a different perception of John Key.

    • Grace Miller 4.4

      Another one that needs an ‘I’ statement there!

      I wouldn’t drink with him if he paid me.

  5. Arthur 5

    John Key—-Donald Trump———-Buzz Windrip?

  6. Magisterium 6

    National on track for another record victory, long may Key Derangement Syndrome reign on the Left.

    • Paul 6.1

      A new meme for people with no original thoughts.

      • Gangnam Style 6.1.1

        Yeah, the ‘Angry Andy’ didn’t work out, now they trying to force this derangement meme, which I don’t quite get, maybe they mean Syndrome Key is Deranged. Or those who worship him have Key Derangement Syndrome, it isn’t specific enough (which is why they have to explain it every freekin time).

        • Paul

          You do wonder how many of the troll’s pseudonyms are shared…..

        • Pascals bookie

          Well they are nothing if not unimaginative.

          ‘Key Derangement Syndrome’, is a straight ripoff of ‘Bush Derangement Syndrome’
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_George_W._Bush#Bush_Derangement_Syndrome_neologism ,

          not that the trite mouth breathers repeating it in blog comments would know that. DPF would though, and it seems to be him that has pushed the idea hereabouts.

          It’s typical in that i) it’s straight theft of terminoligy that worked for a while in the US (whaleoil in particular, but DPF less obviously, often just recycle US memes, I assume it’s for the same reason they never partake in any of the various twitter pun games, or that RWers in general don’t produce much in the way of comedy, music, or litreraature; they is just a bit thickee innit), ii) it’s lightweight rhetorical horseshit pretending to say something, and iii) it’s ad hom in the ‘formal logical error’ sense.

          So right up DPF’s alley, and ripe for the mouth breathers to repeat coz it makes them feel smart.

          • William

            Additionally, they pretend to be blind to their own behaviour that really could be pigeonholed as Derangement Syndrome, in their case preceded by the name ‘Clark’. Recall the money spent by DPF to erect billboards around the country depicting Mugabe & Bainimarama praising Labour’s policy. And his bff Slater photoshopping Clark’s head onto a naked body. That’s one I had the misfortune to see, I don’t knowingly visit his blog so I’m probably ignorant of other examples.

    • Richard Christie 6.2

      Well, he is deranged.

      You got that part right.

  7. reason 7

    Fisiani is proud to lie for Key …….. Is that derangement????? …. or just grubby dishonesty

    Bea Brown is a troll like Fisiani ……………. are trolls deranged?? …. we know they are not normal…… or nice

    The white ribbon campaign seems to be suffering from some kind of derangement by having creepy John key as their ambassador ………… it’s like some kind of sick Joke.

    Why don’t white Ribbon just use Mike Sabin ??????????????

    John Key recommends him and rates him as an expert …………..

    In fact Mike Sabin is just so exceptionally good ………………. that even when he heard about his ‘family troubles’ ……………. John Key still thought him worthy of promotion and support.

    Perhaps White Ribbon could use both Mike Sabin and John Key together ????

    They are a natural team ……….. proudly brought to you from the national party.

    • Macro 7.1

      What an excellent idea!
      Yes Sabin and Key!
      A natural team.
      Bet Bea and Fisi would vote for that!

  8. Bea Brown 8

    The problem with support for KDS is that it makes it very hard for anyone to take seriously anything else you say.
    I know you think that if I think Key is a capable PM, a loving husband and dad and a genuinely likeable man, that means I am stupid, besotted, blind, deluded, psychopathic etc but if Labour wants my vote – as they do – they have to think of ways to appeal to crazies like me.
    I read this blog for a laugh and in the hope I can understand the thinking of the Left. If I were an undecided voter it would send me screaming to National.

    • One Two 8.1

      Labour does not “want your vote”

      The establishment who control politics “want your vote” , and through your words it seems they have you hooked up

      Red or Blue it’s all a charade

    • Paul 8.2

      You are not an undecided voter.
      You are hard right, clearly.

      • Reddelusion 8.2.1

        No Pauly we read this blog for entertainment, many of us are no great fans of key or politicians in general but we find jk derangement and the loony left hysterical, especially there ability to explain their own repeated failure to be viewed anything but loony , their high brow moralising and so called intellectual superiority. Please don’t stop😀 oh here is some more zzzzzzzzz, I see you used some earlier and may be running out

        • Tracey

          I would not put you in the same box as Bea Brown or Fiskani as you do not blindly defend everything Key says or does.

          Sexual and domestic violence is a problem in NZ destroying lives not just at the time of the acts but for years, decades and lifetimes. Role modelling is a genuine phenomena, even in adults. Key is our PM, and in the instances outlined in the post he showed a lack of understanding, not just of the nuances to changing attitudes but the overt easy stuff…. never be seen to make light of such things. Key seems like many people who are unable to stand in anothers shoes until their shoes are in that position. Again, as a currency trader he can be what he wants but as PM he carries power for change in his every word. Anyone not prepared to do that shod NOT hold the position.

          I thought the OP pretty much used his behaviours to make a good case that he is the wrong lerson for the role of ambassador for white ribbon. Whatever fundraising he can assist with must surely be put up against the damage he does to their goals?

          • Reddelusion

            Tracy no issues with your first sentence second paragraph but the rest is a hell of an extrapolation and subjective judgment on your part. Many people would disagree and likewise find the so called context of the trivial nature of his so call misdemeanour and the bow you draw as ridiculously over the top, Here is where the so called outrage makes the left look silly I appreciate you may feel what you say is genuine but that does not mean that it is right,

            • weka

              Key’s pattern of behaviour is a pretty good reflection of the parts of the culture that won’t do anything about the sexual violence you’ve just said you think is wrong. You can write off the joke or the pony tail pulling as lightweight, but all that means is you’ve missed the point of the post.

              • Reddelusion

                No weka you are simply pin pricking I don’t think keys actions have made one iota of difference to sexual violence in nz either in discouraging or encouraging it, there is no connection unless you are easily offended, overly sensitive and or sufferering from key derangement syndrome. The whole issue is simply silly politics, even sillier as it is not even a winning strategy for the left as it only bolsters key.

                • weka

                  you’re avoiding the issue (again), and you have no real understanding about violence culture and the role that prominent people play in that.

                  You can ad hom all you like, but it’s hardly a political analysis.

                • Tracey

                  ” don’t think keys actions have made one iota of difference to sexual violence in nz either in discouraging or encouraging it, there is no connection unless you are easily offended, overly sensitive and or sufferering from key derangement syndrome. ”

                  Here is where the “meh” attitude makes people (many from the right, but not only) look silly I appreciate you may feel what you say is genuine but that does not mean that it is right.

                  For those who educate themselves about all the aspects of what contributes to a sexual/domestic violence culture, you are just making yourself look ignorant and therefore foolish.

                  You don’t “think” Key has any impact on how people in NZ view sexual and domestic violence (which you are entitled) but to self righteously extrapolate that what you “think” is either factual, accurate or right is a longer bow than the one you accuse me of, given research on the issues.

                  Next you will say that because sports people don’t want to be role models children and others are not modelling their behaviour

    • Tracey 8.3

      It is the behaviours of Key that you will defend unquestioningly that draws criticism rather than you thinking he is nice, a loving father and husband, or a capable PM.

    • Korero Pono 8.4

      Bea I find it immensely interesting how you actually buy into your own hype, that KDS is being touted as a condition (first time I have seen it used and frankly a little shocked that people such as yourself use it to justify their thinking patterns and ignore any facts that might distort an imagined reality). Those with a little more intelligence see its use for what it is, it is nothing more than an attempt to label and control others (and to a greater extent ignore a problem that may be too traumatic for you to handle)…i.e. the ‘demi-god’ Key has flaws (big ones). Granted Key knows how to play the game, he knows how to smile and play the ‘lad’ but by the same token, this Prime Minister has been involved in some very inappropriate behaviours. There is serious speculation about the Mike Sabin issue and some real concerns about how much was being hidden by Key and others for political purposes. Meanwhile real victims were being ignored. Where was the White Ribbon ambassador then? Was he speaking up about it? No, he was too busy pulling pony tails across the country and ‘horsing’ around I dare say.

      • Reddelusion 8.4.1

        “Those with a little more intelligence” ( code we are all knowing the rest of nz are idiots).” Some very inappropriate behaviour” ( by who’s standard, oh, the FJK deranged standard) , ” there is serious speculation” ( by who, oh the unbiased loony left). I rest my case

        • Korero Pono

          Oh hey deluded, you don’t have a ‘case’ to rest.

          Interesting to see you falling into the tell-tale traits of an abuser with your abusive labeling (loony left). It is a case of “anyone who does not think like we do, must be loony”. Diagnosing them with a condition “FJK deranged standard” that makes it seem like they have some type of disorder, not normal, not like us, is another method to control and abuse vicitms. For example: Abusers often try to make others think the victims of their abuse have something wrong with them, they are crazy and therefore making it all up. Abusers are good at playing the ‘nice guy’ (or gal) when there is an audience, making it hard to believe that the person is an abuser when the victim finally speaks out. Abusers will disseminate untrue information about victims to cast doubt if they do speak up. It happens to child victims, adult female and male victims. People tend to think of abuse in personal relationships, but abuse extends to all levels of society. There is an institutional (systemic) abuse of ‘certain’ kinds of people. People for example who do not hold the same ideas, culture, religion, race. Donald Trump’s current anti-Muslim speech is playing on the fears of the masses, it is hate speech, labeling all Muslims as potential terrorists. Similar hate speech is prevalent in our own society (dressed up with nice words – the more covert form of abuse), Deluded, you are engaging in a similar type of abuse with your attempts to label and vilify any person who does not agree with your own ideology. Instead of addressing the issues, you are resorting to abuse.

    • Incognito 8.5

      Bea Brown, with respect, but I think your argument is flawed.

      John Key may indeed be “a loving husband and dad and a genuinely likeable man”; I wouldn’t know. However, being any of these is not mutually exclusive with being an abuser or worse. There are ample examples of (war) criminals, gangsters, Mafiosi, etc., who were doting husbands, adoring fathers, and good friends.

      Serial killers, for example, are notoriously difficult to detect/recognise because they appear so normal and easily hide their evil side & deeds even from “their own families and peers”.

      Most abusers – and for convenience I include people committing sexual violence under this term – appear normal too; they often are respected and trusted members of society and in a position of (some) power. This is one reason why abuse cases are often met with disbelief, at least initially. This, in turn, makes it harder for victims to come forward. Partly because abusers or abusive people appear so innocuous it is such a difficult, persistent, and insidious problem in our society!

      I hope you or anybody else will not misconstrue my comment but I am prepared to take the risk in the hope of making a positive contribution to the debate about abuse, of any kind, in our society. Surely, this problem is best dealt with via a non-partisan approach, as far as politics and politicians are concerned. However, we ordinary citizens have an even more important role to play and mutual slagging on social media or elsewhere is not helpful, not one bit; it is disrespectful and could be considered abuse per se.

    • Expat 8.6


      “they have to think of ways to appeal to crazies like me.”

      No one should have to appeal to a crazy like you.

      All those things that you describe about Key are not qualities I would necessarily associate with a Prime-minister, perhaps for example “Leadership”, not a single right wing blogger has presented an argument about Key that describes the man other than “popular”.

      Popularity ain’t going to pay back the $100b.

      Popularity sells dumb ideas to people with similar levels of intellect.

  9. weka 9

    Very good post Kōrero Pono!

  10. reason 10

    Bea Brown and others are suffering from ‘bent key syndrome’ ………. BKS

    Sufferers of this condition think that a hopelessly bent key is actually straight …….

    When it is pointed out the key is bent they will project and call the person who observes the bent key ………………. deranged.

    Those suffering from bent key syndrome would probably let mike sabin babysit their children or grandchildren …………………. on keys say so 🙂

    • Reddelusion 10.1

      Take John key out of your explanation for all those who disagree with you but are not John key sycophants, where does your argument go then. As long as you think John key is the problem I don’t think you are really asking the right questions. You are simply externalising your impotence ( ie no one is Buying what your selling) to a person, rather than addressing why your view is a minority view, trying to explain otherwise is simply ” explaining is loosing”

      • Trey 10.1.1

        Don’t you mean “explaining is losing, not LOOSING” and it is a load of bollicks saying anyway. It tends to be pulled out when the author has no justification to back up their argument so they attrempt to knock the justification made by others with stupid throw away lines. It is a favourite of Cameron Slater, enough said

      • Tracey 10.1.2

        Are you suggesting people here have said John Kay is the caus eof all sexual and domestic violence in NZ? If so, please cite otherwise you are wandering far and wide

  11. One Anonymous Bloke 11

    The only reason Key is a White Ribbon ambassador is the office he holds, as opposed to his personal qualities.

    For an organisation such as White Ribbon to strip the Prime Minister of his ambassadorial role would ensure that White Ribbon, its staff and volunteers would be vilified, defunded and ratfucked by the National Party and its enablers.

    The National Party’s civil war upon New Zealand is the problem.

    • Rosie 11.1

      “For an organisation such as White Ribbon to strip the Prime Minister of his ambassadorial role would ensure that White Ribbon, its staff and volunteers would be vilified, defunded and ratfucked by the National Party and its enablers.”

      Yes, this could well happen.

      OR, it might make White Ribbon stronger and keep their integrity and mana in tact (see below). If they lose their funding for dumping Key it could be a turning point in what NZer’s can stomach in regard to the behaviour of their PM. Fuck the ratfuckers I say, and do the right thing. Stand up!

      This is a very hard lesson for an NGO in choosing between the power of the celebrity status of their ambassadors, and their own integrity. If they keep Key, they fail themselves and those at risk people they work with.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1

        …they fail themselves and those at risk people they work with.

        No, they don’t. They’re between a rock and a hard place, and the situation is entirely of the National Party’s making: they are the ones who bear (personal) responsibility for Key’s odious pantomimes, not that they’ll ever step up and admit it.

        • weka

          If what you are saying is true, say that under normal circumstances they would drop someone who was an ambassador that behaved like Key but they’re not now because of fear of loss of funding and reprisals, then they may be between a rock and a hard place but they still have a choice. To keep Key out of fear is to be part of the problem instead of standing up and doing the right thing.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            (As so often seems to happen), McFlock @ 14.2 expressed it much better than I:

            I’m not sure anyone can stand in particularly strong judgement of another who acts in extremis.

            • weka

              McFlock presents a false dichotomy that I don’t think applies here. We’re not talking about either adhering absolutely to one’s principles or losing one’s existence. If anyone has evidence that the White Ribbon campaign would have to close because they asked Key to step aside I’d like to see it.

              I just keep thinking what would happen if Rape Crisis had Key as a patron and this happened? They’d dump him. It’s what politcally conscious organsations do and I can’t help but think that the White Ribbon group is falling for its own privilege. I’m open to being wrong about this, I don’t know that much about the organisation but on the face of it the damage being done otuweighs the organisation carrying on the way it currently does.

              It also begs the question of whether ambassadors are permanent or not, and why.

              • McFlock

                McFlock presents a false dichotomy that I don’t think applies here. We’re not talking about either adhering absolutely to one’s principles or losing one’s existence.

                Anyone who relies on government contracts for 90% of their funding and also saw the problem gambling foundation informed that it would lose its government contracts in one fell swoop (purely coincidentally /sarc after its statements about the skycity pokies gift) would have that possibility in the absolute forefront of their mind.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  It’s entirely possible than any organisation so exposed to National Party values is compromised in this way. Must volunteers simply wait for a new government with human values rather than try their best to defend the vulnerable in spite of the over-lying predation?

                  • McFlock

                    That’s the judgement call. Do as much as possible without gaining crippling repercussions, or go down in a blaze of glory but lose all the networks and facilities you’ve built up.

                    I suspect that such a slap in the face like stripping john key of his ambassadorship would be too high profile and personal to avoid equally strong repercussions.

                    Athough a mid-ground might be to ask ambassadors to attend annual/biannual training sessions so they can ambass to the best of their ambassing abilities – no training equals an expiry of the position. Key can’t attend because of scheduling. No loss of face.

                    • weka

                      If the issue is as you and OAB describe then organisations like White Ribbon need to look at their funding strategy. Because to not drop an ambassador with Key’s record because of fear of loss of funding from Key renders the organisation illegitimate.

                      I’m speaking from a background of grassroots activism where much good work has been done without such reliance on government funding, although I take OAB’s point that the current National govt is poisonous in ways we’ve not seen before.

                      “Athough a mid-ground might be to ask ambassadors to attend annual/biannual training sessions”

                      Probably lots of options, including having fixed terms rather than indefinite ones.

                    • Tracey

                      Most organisations in NZ doing “social” work (including sport) rely almost exclusively on direct or indirect government funding (I count Lotto as indirect funding from taxpayers, therefore governments).

                      I have been involved in sport on many different levels over the year and the veiled and less veiled threats from funder’s have been there.

                      In particular under this government there must be an increasing sense that if you bite that hand you and your work is gone.

                      I am impressed by the list of Ambassadors. I am intrigued that the Foundation states it has only 1 employee, everyone else is a volunteer. This should make it a very efficient turner around of the funds it receives to the grassroots impact areas.

                    • Tracey

                      ” Ambassadors will be provided with training, information packs and ongoing mentoring.”


                      “REMOVAL OF AMBASSADORS
                      If the behaviour of an Ambassador is inconsistent with the kaupapa of the campaign, or an Ambassador
                      fails to disclose anything historical which is inconsistent with the kaupapa of the campaign, the White
                      Ribbon Committee reserves the right to terminate the Ambassadorship. An Ambassador may also choose
                      to resign should their circumstances change.
                      If you have any questions regarding the ambassador project, please contact the Campaign Manager Rob
                      McCann on 021 212 2953”

                      Statement about John Key

                      “Recent comments by Prime Minister John Key, a White Ribbon Ambassador, accusing other members of parliament of supporting rapists has understandably caused great offence to many people, men and women alike.
                      The comments do not reflect the Kaupapa of White Ribbon and do not support our efforts to engage with men (which includes working and speaking to perpetrators and former perpetrators) across New Zealand. These are men that must be encouraged to change their attitudes and behaviour and the work of those who deal with these men should not be disparaged. Nor should the former perpetrators who now dedicate their lives to ensuring their appalling choices are not repeated by other men.
                      The central tenet of the White Ribbon campaign is that we must ‘never commit condone or remain silent about violence towards women’. Our supporters have sent the White Ribbon trustees a clear message that they expect us to honour this pledge. We have heard that call and we agree, so we will be contacting the Prime Minister’s office outlining our concerns.”

                      So, White Ribbon is reminding the PM of what their kaupapa and basic tenet is. Kind of a basic requirement for an Ambassador. The WRF wants to remain apolitical, then may I suggest it is not wise to appoint MP’s as Ambassador’s given their job is by definition the opposite of “apolitical”

                    • McFlock

                      Weka, it’s all very well saying they “need to look at their funding strategy” but that doesn’t address the situation as it is now, even if less petulant funders than this government could be found.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                So this may be the fundamental conflict between charity and humanism: the National Party cuts funding to social services and encourages charities to pick up the slack. Charities that reject National Party values are vilified and defunded, then replaced by the ideologically compliant.

                So charity is itself a tool of the strong, wielded against the weak and vulnerable.

                Best not bring that one up around the dinner table.

    • Tracey 11.2

      Do you really think they feel trapped? With 64% popularity for Key I guess….

    • Reddelusion 11.3

      is that music from the twighlight zone I hear

    • Korero Pono 11.4


      “For an organisation such as White Ribbon to strip the Prime Minister of his ambassadorial role would ensure that White Ribbon, its staff and volunteers would be vilified, defunded and ratfucked by the National Party and its enablers”

      If the above were true, and if this is the organisation’s real fear then they should know that they are falling victim to the control and power of an abuser. The Duluth model that they rely on to identify abuse is the key to recognising when one party in a relationship holds the balance of power. When people are fearful of that power being used against them, then the relationship is unhealthy and it is abusive. This is more reason for WR to stand up and speak up. Women everywhere are being encouraged to do so, it would be a real shame if an organisation that purports to encourage men to lead violent free lives, succumbs to abuse of power in order to retain their funding. I would go far as to say it would be hypocritical.

  12. Rosie 12

    Thank you for your well written post Korero Pono. It is absolutely necessary to keep our pressure up on Key over his highly inappropriate attitudes and the effect they have as well as the abuse he has committed and the effect that has had too. Once NZ wakes up from it’s festive slumber this issue will return – it can’t be left to fade into obscurity like every other insult, hurt or abuse.

    Last week I used only two examples you discuss in your post, relating to Amanda Bailey and Tania Billingsley, in a letter to Robb McCann, CE of White Ribbon to demonstrate why Key is a totally inappropriate ambassador for them. I asked that they reconsider his behaviour and remove him from his position. I received an automated reply. Fair enough, it was a couple of days before xmas, but I will chase it up in the New Year. I hope others do the same. Write to White Ribbon and request they remove Key as an ambassador.

    Like I’ve mentioned before I had no idea Key had been an ambassador since 2010. I find it distressing that White Ribbon could be so unaware of of Key’s behaviours and attitudes that are completely counter productive to their mission, intentions and work.

    If White Ribbon want their mana and integrity to stay in tact they need to dump him. To do that shows they support victims of physical, sexual and psychological abuse, the very people they represent. Any other option including the status quo means they have turned a blind eye to the vulnerable and sends the message that they don’t matter.

    • Magisterium 12.1


      No violence is tolerable. If you know someone who is being frightened or intimidated by the behaviour of someone else, it is not OK.”

      Hope no-one tells the Black Ferns, eh?

      • Rosie 12.1.1

        You’re replying to me but I never quoted “violence towards women is never acceptable etc” so I’m not sure what you are getting at and what John Key’s ambassador status with White Ribbon has got to do with the Black Ferns.

        You may have to explain.

    • weka 12.2

      It would be interesting to look at his behaviour prior to 2010. All the examples I can think of are post then, which is interesting in itself.

  13. NZJester 13

    The most reprehensible part was him offering to give an apology if he knew who she was and them withdrawing the offer to apologize once she outed herself by getting the name suppression removed.
    That shows the mans true character right there!

  14. mary_a 14

    The White Ribbon Foundation should realize by now, its ambassador is abusing his powerful and influential office of PM, to play out his salacious, warped fantasies and fetishes, knowing he is protected by position.

    If it’s to retain any credibility, White Ribbon needs to rid the organization of this leering lecher, regardless of the threats of funding cuts etc, which undoubtedly FJK would use to keep the prestigious title! It’s how he works, playing the fear of consequences tactic, in his favour, should he be challenged or undermined!

    White Ribbon is certainly not doing itself any justice by keeping the PM on as ambassador, considering the evidence over the years of his abusive and disturbed behaviour. In fact WR is degrading its own mission by not dismissing him!

    • Rosie 14.1

      +1 mary_a

    • McFlock 14.2

      Regarding the “threats” of funding cuts (although they’re more aptly called lessons hard learned by other groups that have spoken out contrary to the plans of Brand Key):

      It’s telling that the tory arguments against government control over various services apply mostly when a tory gorvernment is in control.

      The biggest challenge an organisation or person faces is to choose between uncompromisingly adhering to their principles or preserving their existence. In many cases, like this one, I’m not sure anyone can stand in particularly strong judgement of another who acts in extemis.

  15. mac1 15

    40 out of 80 comments so far generated by 3 troll*, with 10 comments, and 30 replies to them.

    Make of that what you will, but feeding ducks encourages them and also affects the environment. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/16/dont-feed-the-ducks-bread-say-conservationists

    • Rosie 15.1

      I have a personal policy of not engaging with them mac1 but one engaged with me, which is very rare, so in this instance I responded and only because I had a genuine question to clarify what he/she meant, although I’m pretty certain they were trying a really lame distraction……….they seem to think physical, psychological and sexual abuse can be turned into a laughing matter as a form of distraction.

      It’s a worry, what lengths key supporters will go to defend their man, even if he’s an abusing creep and an international embarrassment.

    • emergency mike 15.2

      Yep, for our regular tr0lls any post about rape culture is easy pickings.

      ‘Key Derangement Syndrome’, ‘attacking Key is a vote loser’, ‘faux outrage’, ‘deluded minority’, ‘the polls say your wrong’… Same old chestnuts, same old bait, same old replies and refutations…

      Just because your ‘political blogs’ are actually focus group and poll driven propaganda tools for the creation of anti-left memes which you dutifully spread around teh interwebs like a gullible fool, doesn’t mean you are correct to project that onto The Standard. Just because your man has no problem pretending to care about rape prevention for political gain (“You back the rapists”), doesn’t mean the purpose of this post is scoring votes for the left. And beliefs don’t get proved right or wrong by popular vote, flat Earth, slavery, homosexuality as a crime, all used to be commonly accepted.

      Anyone who can’t see that John Key’s behaviour on these matters is appalling and disgraceful for a PM and friggin’ White Ribbon Ambassador suffering from a blindness born of ignorance or willful denial. I think this oft reposted rant says it well:

      “women do not think all men are rapists. rapists think all men are rapists. this has been proven over & over in psycho profiles and studies

      i get it, you’re making a rape joke. you would NEVER rape someone. you’re a good man who doesn’t understand why your ‘fee speech’ is curbed.

      HOWEVER, when you make a rape joke, there are 2 people who are very likely to hear it, due to high rape stats

      a) survivors

      b) rapists

      when you make a rape joke, a survivor relives in vivid, Technicolor sound, what was probably the worst memory of his or her life

      but you don’t care about that. they’re being too sensitive, right? fuck em.

      but what about the RAPIST who hears you?

      the rapist hears you make that “oh bro i got raped at work today” joke and laughs right along with you, secretly validated

      the rapist thinks to himself ‘oh, a man who thinks of rape as a normal part of life.’ he thinks you’re a rapist too, bc you normalize it

      does that bother you? you, a good man who would never rape anyone? does it bother you that a rapist identifies with you?

      if that thought doesn’t make you look deep inside and examine your desire to make rape jokes, may God have mercy on your soul.”

      And that’s the point, this is about John Key’s behaviour and severe lack of empathy showing him to be unfit for the job. It’s not an election strategy, it’s genuine concern. It’s never ok to make rape jokes, because you don’t know who might be listening.

      To you it might be ‘just a joke’ but to a rape victim it can bring back serious trauma, and remind them that we live in a culture where the John Key majority doesn’t see any problem with normalizing it in this way. Because to a rapist, or potential rapist, it tells them that rape is just a part of life, of our culture, there’s something funny about it, it’s not really a big deal, and that secretly, most men feel just like they secretly feel about it. There is plenty of research about this.

      Empathy, ffs sake try it sometime. Then ask yourself who’s really ‘backing the rapists’.

      • Madeleine 15.2.1

        You really are a worry wort.

        Stop worrying.

        No-one is going to hurt either of us.

        I promise.

        • emergency mike

          Thanks for your considered reply. I hope the knitting is going well.

          • Madeleine

            IF you yo-yo, you are going to look ‘unstable’.

            Get a fucking grip.

            You know ‘WHO YOU ARE’ – stop acting indecisive.

            Stop Worrying.

            What would you rather have the MOON on your side, or the sun?

            Go figure!

      • BM 15.2.2

        Even though he was set up by some left leaning radio djs, the prison joke was about Men.

        Nothing to to with Women, and as a Man I don’t give a shit, I’m just not that fucking delicate.

        • sabine

          BM, the prison joke is about rape.

          Rape is defined as the unlawful and unconsented ‘inserting’ of an object into the bodily orifices of someone. Orifices would be mouth – oral, the rectum – anal, and the vagina – vaginal. Rape is gender neutral, the rapist and raped person can be both man, both women or women on man or man on women.
          Rape happen in prisons to men and women, in fact we have many movies making just that soap joke, and I am sure you have watched your fair dose of macho movies where these jokes are cracked. We have had police accused and found guilty of rape. Rape also happens in the homes around us, it happens to children, to adults and to the very old.

          And if you as a Man don’t give a shit because you are not that delicate I can only assume that so far no one has inserted anything in your bodily orifices without your consent. But maybe you want to listen to some people around you that have had that happen to them, and then maybe you realise it that both parties in that Radio Gig were just awful. The Radio Jocks for suggesting the ‘joke’ and the PM for going along with it for what ever reason.

          Rape is a heinous crime, it is hurtful, it can kill, it can split families, it can cause suicide, it can cause lasting mental health issues that will have to be dealt with, it can cause severe body damage to the reproductive organs especially if the raped person was a young child or baby.

          And believe me, I will never forget my rape and it is over 30 years ago. Believe me when i say that it is killer (it did kill whom ever i was that night, the girl that went to bed did not get up) , and believe me when I tell you that I am not a delicate person.

          Don’t make yourself a lesser human being then you are BM. Rape is nothing to joke about. And if you don’t believe me speak to some copper, or some nurse at the hospital that has to sew a ripped apart rectum or vagina back together. Or maybe not speak at all and just be silent if you have run out of decency.

          • RedLogix

            Without quibbling your argument Sabine, it’s worth keeping in mind that humour is a very complex thing. Humans use it for all sorts of purposes, sometimes to mock and hurt, sometimes to reassure and bond, sometimes to deflect and hide, and other times to find courage in darkness.

            The very nature of humour depends on that leap of illogic, that moment of irrationality that confounds the fixed patterns of our minds. In it’s simplest form, a pun has two or more meanings … the minds is led to expect one, but is surprised by the other. In that moment we laugh.

            This is the power of it. It is our uniquely human tool we use for breaking fixed patterns of thought and disarming the strong emotions that come with them. The most cathartic, the most healing of moments start in weeping or terror and without warning transform into laughter at the absurdity of it all.

            Many years ago I was climbing up a steep face in the depths of Fiordland. 100m of tussock, a heavy pack and 1500m of vertical rock below us. I was terrified. Then Chris cracked a joke about tussock (I’ll not try to explain it) … and for a moment I was reduced to almost helpless fits of laughter. I must have come close to death in that instant, yet my fear was gone. We scrambled up the last metres to the ridge-line above us with calm minds, in style and safe.

            Of course all humour when examined coldly and literally, stripped of it’s irrational, subversive power, devoid of it’s underlying intent … is offensive in some light. Yet it remains central to our social lives; it’s highly valued and sought after in our partners; it will always remain part of us.

            Crucially we decode intent, timing and the nature of the subversion when we evaluate humour, and each of these things deeply connected to context and experience, both personal and political. That is it’s power and we rail against it always at some peril. Because most often when a joke offends, it was not the humour which failed, but the intent which was ugly.

            Or more accurately a pattern of intent. A good mate of mine was the most dangerously funny man; he took on Helen Clark late one night with the most non-PC Muldoon imitation imaginable, and in return she gave as good as she got.

            John Key thinks he is funny too, but over time the underlying dark-side becomes irksome.



            • McFlock

              I’ve worked a few jobs that, on occasion, involved some very intense moments. Nothing compared to a soldier or a cop, but definitely involving the occasional split second where a feeling, too quick for words, comes over along the lines of “if I fuck this up someone, possibly me, might die”. And moments with lesser, but still important, penalties for failure. We had the training and the will, but people can fall in funnyweird ways.

              Anyway, some of the jokes about those situations that I shared with colleagues I would never share with anyone else. We knew that everyone sharing the joke knew the subtext, and that it didn’t come from an uncaring place, just an intense one. And also if I did share the joke with anyone else, I’d sound like the most callous jerk on the planet (i.e. someone like BM).

              And even if I did something like get drunk and mouth off, even then I sure as shit woudn’t say it in a public forum let alone on the fucking radio. Because I know that the odds of someone being on the wrong end of a siilar incident could be taken right back to that place by an idiot callous comment from some passing jerk.

              That’s what pisses me off about key not calling out the “joke”, let alone as a White Ribbon ambassador, just as a human being. It really is callous,

            • sabine

              No matter what RL we can not make rape funny.

              There is nothing funny about raping a baby, a child, teenager, an adult or an old person. Full stop here.

              And considering that the Police, the Law, and often society does not believe rape happened as it did happen, considering that rape is essentially a stable diet on our TV screens together with murder (and that more often then not the victim is a female) i can’t see what is funny about.

              Gallows Humor is one thing, joking about assaulting someone by way of rape is not Gallows Humor, it is simply distaste full and the jocks of that radio station are as puerile as was the PM in that moment.

              Someone on this thread said it better then I did, there are rapists and their enabler and then there are the raped ones, and they hear that shit and the message that they take a way is simply that rape is ok, that it’s something to be made fun of, and that society including our PM are enabling it with some aww shucks lets have some beers humor.

              • BM

                You’re a woman, you don’t get man humor.
                Most women don’t.

                Men joke about all sorts of bad stuff, it’s just the way we are.

                Also the cage thing was shit , just a couple of lefties taking advantage of the situation and the PMs good nature to make him look bad.


                • Korero Pono

                  So what is the definition of “man Humor”?

                  • BM

                    This isn’t for all men

                    But from my experience it’s can be fairly rude, crude, offensive, boundary pushing, especially with younger guys.

                    Older guys can still be a bit on the offensive side but tend to be a bit more circumspect compared to younger guys.

                    Also a lot of this jokey stuff is used in the teaching process, for example ‘the drop the soap’ joke

                    That’s targeted at young guys to demonstrate the perils of breaking the law and ending up going to jail.
                    By making a joke out of it , it tends to sink in more.

                    • Korero Pono

                      So in your opinion is it okay to joke about rape?

                    • BM

                      It’s certainly isn’t my favorite topic of humor, nothing particularly funny about rape.

                      But like I wrote, a lot of men, especially younger men, joke about bad things.

                      Always have, always will.


                    • sabine

                      You can only have something sink in by threatening young man with rape? Why? Because that will pussyfy them? or it will take a way their dignity? or they become ‘gay’? Or something? boundary pushing? like what…..hey if you don’t give me the beer, joint, car, bike or such Imagonnarapeyou? or just to be rude, hey i really like to rape your….insert whomever you could see raped? Offensive, like i would not invite a childmolesterer and murderer for lunch? Really. Teaching kids that if they don’t use their math, someone is gonna rape them? And if you get cought smoking a joint and get locked up you are gonna get raped? Really?
                      And yet it is the women that get raped most of the time, cause clearly someone needs to get raped, what with that joking about rape. Hey, its all just in good fun. A bit crude, but honestly we are good guys and would never do something like it, we just promote it by joking about it? You BM are part of the problem. And the PM is just backing you up.

                      ” “Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who’s around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who’s at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.”

                    • RedLogix

                      Humour is also used to challenge someone new to a group, to find out how they’re going to react under pressure. Are they going to get defensive and fold, or will they stand up, give back as good as they get? Their reaction is a measure of their emotional control, their intelligence, and their willingness to set aside personal pride for the greater good.

                      Strong effective teams are built under pressure, and men instinctively go about doing this all the time. In most workplaces some level of ‘giving each other shit’ is a way of life. BM is right, it’s one area of life where men are strikingly different to women.

                      My point is this. I understand and accept fully why you find any jokes about rape unacceptable. You might also want to understand that there will be other people who find jokes about say, climate change, wrong as well. Or more or less any other bad thing under the sun.

                      Some of it will be sharp, self-reflective and provocative … and some will be ugly, nasty and crude. It’s how humans, men in particular, deal with bad stuff; how we process and sort shit out. Demanding we don’t do this, however well intentioned, is futile and self-defeating.

                    • maui

                      Redlogix, a lot of what people find funny comes down to the environment and culture they’re in. I remember being in a mechanics smoko room and the humour crossed several boundaries, I smiled but that is as far as I could engage in it.

                      On the other hand ive also worked in a large open plan office with a mix of women and men present. Jokes of a sexual nature were pretty much barred, out of respect. Humour just shifted to different areas I guess, ones that were safe to laugh about. If you put a lot of the men in that office into the mechanics I don’t think they would find much of that crass humour funny.

                    • RedLogix


                      And while we are at it … ever overheard the some of conversations women have when they think no men are around? There’s another bunch of bent boundaries for you.

                      Like most mature men I no longer find crude or crass humour funny. But I can only look back at the very young version of myself and sometimes cringe. It’s something you grow out of.

                      Yes humour is extremely context dependent; and it often reveals just how little each gender REALLY understands what goes on under the bonnet of the other. ( A little mechanic joke for you as it were.)

                • Muttonbird

                  Classic rape apologist defence there. Well done.

                • sabine

                  I don’t know if the Radio Jocks voted left/right or humpty dumpty and frankly i don’t care.

                  If your only excuse for the PM participating in this toilet humor or man humor as you call it, because the Radio Jocks made him do it……….really?
                  and he could not say no? Why was he roofied? Or drunk? And why was he hanging out with these guys in the first place, should he not know better then to keep such questionable company? Surely he is enough educated and trained to be able to stay out of trouble and not get himself ‘manhandled’ by a bunch of Radio Jocks.

                  And if you and your mates joke about rape all the time, do you think that it could affect their daughters? or their wifes? or their mothers? or your spouse/girlfriend? Or maybe their sons, their fathers?

                  And if you and your mates joke about rape all the time does that involve babies? or little children? Or does it only involve pretty things that should have known better?

                  And if you and your mates joke about rape all the time cause manjokes? Does it make you feel manly and funny?

                  No the jocks did not make John Key look bad, he did this all by himself. He could have said no, He could have walked away, he could simply have told them that he is the PM of all NZ’lers and that the joke is in bad taste. But you know what, he did not.

                  And you should really really have a good look in the mirror and ask yourself where your human decency and your moral compass went, and maybe go back to the gutter where you lost those things and try to find it again.

                  • BM

                    Guys don’t joke about raping women, that’s not in the remotest bit funny.

                    Guys do joke about gay rape, though.

                    For whatever reason that seems to be acceptable and humorous for many.

                    • Gangnam Style

                      Raping men is considered funny by guys? Not by this guy you fucking creep. Fuck you & your like minded sleazebags.

                    • sabine

                      Rape is a gender neutral word.
                      Rape in prison is not ‘gay’ rape, unless you and your mates think that only ‘gay’ man would rape a man. Which is again just shows that really you and your mates have no moral compass and apart from being rape apologists, and rape promoter for the sake of education, you are also homophobic. And so is the Prime Minister then.

                      Really BM, it is not getting any better, innit?

                  • maui

                    Great comment Sabine. I thought it was obvious by now that you’re not allowed to be left leaning and be on commercial tv and radio. The only exception I can think of is Newsboy.

                  • RedLogix

                    I’d agree with BM on this. Last few years I’ve been working in some pretty tough male dominated environments and believe it or not, we don’t sit around at smoko, or the bar, cracking on about raping women.

                    Sure you get a bit of smut and innuendo I’m certain you would disapprove of, but NOT raping women. And any guy stupid enough to try it on would pretty quickly get the message that it wasn’t remotely funny.

                    This rape culture filter you have erected to view the world through seems to have some big fat blind spots. Especially about men.

                    • sabine

                      please point out the big fat blind spots.
                      please educate me how i can prevent my rape?
                      please educate me to what is smut and innuendo, and what is an appropriate rape joke?
                      Please do.

                      Because you see, all the women that were raped this year would disagree with you.
                      The women that were raped and killed this year would disagree.
                      The children that were raped and sexually abused by their ‘Parent’ or “uncles’ or others would disagree with you.
                      The boys that were raped and sexually abused by Priests and Teachers would disagree with you.
                      The inmates – both male and female – that were raped by fellow inmates, correction officers and other would disagree with you.

                      So no, if you think that ‘dropping the soap is funny’ then you also think rape of women is permittable. Rape is rape, it is about power and about control, it is not about smut or innuendo.

                      As for rape culture, you are its victim as much as I was. It is just that I know i was a victim, and you are still pretending that you are not. But everytime a women crosses the road at night time rather then walk on the same side as you do, remember that she is only preventing her rape, cause she does not know that you are not a rapist. All she knows is that potentially you are a rapist, and that if she does not prevent her rape it mustavebeenherfault. Feel better now??

                    • RedLogix


                      You ask me to educate you about things I have no interest in. Despite your imaginings about me, I really do not spend a moment of any day thinking how to rape women. I lack even a useful repertoire of dirty jokes for the pub.

                      But what I do know for certain, is that you know almost nothing about the inner lives of men in general. This rape culture you are immersed in ensures this.

                      Frankly sabine, when I read what you are saying, I see the same dead-end, counsel of despair we get from Robert Atack on the topic of climate change. Or Traverev (a woman who used to frequently comment here on 911 and other conspiracy-heavy stuff.)

                      What I also know is that this rape culture meme takes us nowhere useful. You are welcome to anguish over how wicked you imagine all men are, but do not be surprised if this is still what you are doing in another 30 years time. Like Robert still is. For all his logic, passion and effort, he’s achieved little. He’ll tell you as much himself.

                      What you don’t get to tell me is that I do not take either sexual offending or climate change seriously, or that I do not condemn both outright. As with Robert and Traverev I agree with aspects of your underlying thesis. But by observation I am going to respectfully suggest that you are heading down the wrong path.

                      Now I am off to work. I’ve a spot of planet-raping to do. (That’s a little bit of typical male, self-depreciating, dark humour for you. I thought it necessary to explain.)

                    • Tracey

                      Sadly it is a slippery slope, a sliding scale, when people like BM (and you to a far lesser extent) start focusing on well, guys don’t joke about rape… maybe they don’t but they sure as heel do make other jokes about getting girls drunk, and what they might do with/to a drunk girl and ha ha ha and so on. All guys, probably not, but enough to think it does no harm, it does.

                      And while BM does not see any of that behaviour by men as capable of change, cos he presumably considers men are just too stupid and driven by peer acceptance and kowtowing and giving homage to whoever they decide is their alpha male, I do consider they are capable of behaving differently, cos I know some who do.

                      I give men and boys far more credit than BM, but sadly he is perpetuating the (it’s all just how I was born nonsense as an excuse for not actually wanting to change). Have some courage BM, say you find the jokes that mock women and put them down (short of raping jokes of course) really funny and your birthright and you wouldn’t change it for the world, NOT that you can’t change it.

                      And by the way, some of those “it’s only amongst us men” gaggles? They happen in the backyard while those guys think the children are asleep, but are not.

                    • RedLogix


                      Have some courage BM, say you find the jokes that mock women and put them down

                      How far do I have to look to find jokes that mock men and put them down?

                      How much literature is there on female perpetrators of DV and emotional abuse?

                      How many hits will google give me if I search for “female sex offender”?

                      Now I’m the first in the queue agreeing with the fact of male violence being highly visible, dangerous and absolutely demands attention. But after years and years of seeing all this unfold, I’m absolutely convinced that the path we are on isn’t working all that well.

                      Because somewhere along the way instead of engaging both genders constructively in the conversation, we wound up demonising one gender, constructing a ‘rape culture’ that defines all men as potential rapists, and always erases any responsibility for the role women play in the drama because we can ‘never blame the victim’.

                      If we were to reduce the entire human race to just a single couple, one woman, one man … any therapist or counsellor listening to our conversation right now would instantly recognise this stuck place. One half of the couple has had a lot to say for the first 50 minutes of this session, while the other half is by turns feeling shamed, silenced and resentful. Neither has done much actual listening; neither has shown much empathy or understanding towards the other. They’re still defending their patch.

                      To get unstuck each needs to shoulder their own burden of change. But right now one partner feels likes they’re doing all the work, the other feels like what is important to them isn’t even on the agenda.

                      And unlike one couple, as a society the we don’t really have the option of walking away from each other. And we don’t have a kindly therapist to mediate and guide us. Of course this is tough.

                • Tracey

                  You need to change your name to PP

                  Paddling Pool. Do you ever re-read stuff before you hit send. We ALL share this planet but you seem to condone a planet where one half get to dictate the standard the others have to live with.

          • Jay

            No, rape is the penetration of a person’s genitalia by another person’s penis, without consent.

            The other acts you describe are sexual violation, not rape.

            So in NZ law, while we might use the term “prison rape”, in fact it’s impossible for a man to “rape” another man, it’s sexual violation.

            Rape is gender specific – it describes the act of a man having sex with a woman without her consent.

            • Korero Pono

              “sexual violation”, “rape”, no matter what label you put on it (and for those who have been at the receiving end of it, all they know is they didn’t like it). When a man is being held down while another man or men penetrate him with their penises, I am sure they feel raped, they also feel violated, they feel totally dehumanised and used like they are nothing. Exactly the way a woman feels. For victims, rape or sexual violation is much more than an act of penetration without consent.

            • sabine

              and there People that try to have the meaning of rape changed as did the FBI a few years back which now includeds “Sodomy” as rape.


              page two.

              The definition of rape in NZ stems from 1961 and it is clearly outdated.

              And frankly being raped as a man is the same as being raped as a women. And any man that forcefully sodomises another man, or forces them into oral ‘sex’ is essentially raping that man. And it does not matter if they use a penis or a torch.
              So yes Virginia, man can rape man, and man have raped man, and boys, and little girls and old women, and it is always the same.

              • Macro

                Actually here in NZ we changed the Law with regards “rape” to “sexual abuse” or “sexual violence” some years back – in the early 80’s Fran Wilde was the minister at the time. This was a very important step, because it removed the connotation that rape was purely associated with acts of sexual violence by men against women. I was pleased to make a positive submission supporting this change to the select committee at the time.
                You will not see the word “rape” in the NZ Criminal Law today The crime now is an act of sexual abuse or sexual violation or sexual violence.

                What is Rape and Sexual Violation?

                Sexual Violation is legislated in the Crimes Act 1961, Section 128. This legislation protects everyone in New Zealand against Sexual Violation (which includes rape and unlawful sexual connection) as well as other forms of sexual abuse.


        • weka

          It is to do with women (and men), and the fact that you don’t get that matches the fact that it doesn’t bother you.

        • emergency mike

          “Even though he was set up by some left leaning radio djs,”

          Yes helplessly led down the garden path he was, what possible choice did our naive, innocent PM have?

          “the prison joke was about Men.”

          Why do female black widow spiders kill the males after mating?
          To stop the snoring before it starts.

          That is a joke about men. Our PM participated in a publicly broadcasted joke about getting raped in prison. And yes women, (though it’s just great for you that you don’t care about any male person getting raped in prision, thanks for sharing), also get raped in prison. Most commonly by guards or other prison workers.

          So “Nothing to to with Women” fails on a purely factual basis, but also, outside of prison rape is obviously a crime in our society that is committed by men against women. To try and pretend that framing the joke as a ‘prison rape’ joke somehow makes it completely devoid of any connection to that societal problem is an obtuseness that I can’t be bothered helping you with. But here’s a hint: both prison rape and not-prison rape are both rape.

          And generally I’ll just say to you, whoosh. Your personal level of delicacy is uninteresting and irrelevant BM.

          • Madeleine

            I’m not going to kill my ‘own’ Right Eye.

            I’m not going to kill ‘half of my soul’.

            Mother and Son are ‘one’.

          • Magisterium

            Why do female black widow spiders kill the males after mating?
            To stop the snoring before it starts.

            Trigger warning, joke referencing sex and violence

          • Tracey

            “And generally I’ll just say to you, whoosh. Your personal level of delicacy is uninteresting and irrelevant BM.”

            Except insofar as it reflects and enables this PM’s disregard for over half of the population

      • weka 15.2.3

        Very good comment Mike.

        It’s bothering me that this thread has been dominated by troles trying to frame the conversation as stoopid lefties hate Key instead of what it is really about*. Hard to see how else people could have responded except to say if this were a feminist blog the troles would have been shut down at the start. Allowing this shit to go on diverts the real conversations and the real work. Silver lining is that at least the CT/Farrar crowd don’t seem to have much to go on so they’re just pushing the little they have.

        *the conversation should have been about left wing responses to the White Ribbon campaign and keeping Key as ambassador.

        • emergency mike

          Cheers weka.

          Personally I don’t bother responding to them unless I really have something to say that I feel adds to the discussion somehow. Life’s just too short. I’ll leave that to blog warriors keener than I.

          If they serve any purpose it’s as a kind of devil’s advocate foil. But let’s be more than just the ‘Neighbourhood Meme-Watch’. I enjoy the infrequent intellectual discussions about constructive ideas, the ones where the tr0lls seem to go quiet.

        • Tracey

          “*the conversation should have been about left wing responses to the White Ribbon campaign and keeping Key as ambassador.”

          Some deliberately didn’t make it about that and some (BM) don’t get it.

  16. …a bit like the Nazis did…

    Just out of interest, is there anyone you disagree with who isn’t like the Nazis?

    • Korero Pono 16.1

      Oh hey psycho are you still smarting over that – how amusing, you invited it, you asked for it even (now doesn’t that just sound a little creepy).

      • Psycho Milt 16.1.1

        Not exactly smarting – I just find it annoying when people equate mundane stuff with the Nazis. “OMG, the government is building motorways – just like the Nazis!” It’s lazy, it’s ignorant and it’s an insult to people who fought actual Nazis.

        • Korero Pono

          Now now Psycho you are being a little ridiculous, aren’t you? I wouldn’t equate the systemic oppression and abuse of people mundane. When someone in power disseminates misinformation in order to influence the thinking of people in order to justify the oppression of other people, that is a little bit like what the Nazis did. http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/nazprop.html .

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            To be fair, they hardly invented such behaviour: the centre-right has been dehumanising people for centuries.

          • Psycho Milt

            When someone in power disseminates misinformation in order to influence the thinking of people in order to justify the oppression of other people, that is a little bit like what the Nazis did.

            And when someone in power uses government funds to build new motorways, that is a lot like what the Nazis did. So what?

            It’s utterly grotesque for you to equate stuff like Key pulling a waitress’s hair or participating in some dumbass’s rape joke with one of the worst totalitarian dictatorships. Leaving aside the gratuitous insult to the Nazi’s victims, the comparison serves only to make Key’s behaviour look trivial – because, compared to the Nazis, the stuff in your post looks completely harmless.

            • Korero Pono

              Oh psycho you really don’t get it, do you? Your analogy between disseminating misinformation and building motorways is simply ridiculous, and you probably know it (but stick to your premise anyway). There is a vast difference between using your power to influence the beliefs of the populace in order to justify the oppression and vilification of a select group of people and using public funds to build motorways. The Nazis were good propagandists, just like the National Government. Sadly there will always be the minions who buy into the propaganda and help spread the hate, in total ignorance of how they are complicit in oppressing an entire group of people. Oppression is abuse on a mass scale. People may not be shipped off for the gas chambers in New Zealand but they are being labeled and treated like second class citizens all the same. There is nothing harmless about John Key’s pattern of behaviour, on an individual level he is a bully, dismissive toward victims of abuse and on mass scale he uses his influence to ensure thousands of people are abused. Moreover, while people are not being marched off to concentration camps, the life chances of our most vulnerable citizens are being severely compromised by this Government. These children are being willfully neglected, and that is also abuse on a mass scale.

              • seeker

                “the life chances of our most vulnerable citizens are being severely compromised by this Government”

                Continuously……for seven deranged years.

                Good comment and post Korero Pono. It is so important that we keep speaking the truth and you have in my opinion. Thank you

              • RedLogix

                Your argument looks persuasive, but then ask yourself this … has there EVER been any human society immune to your logic? Any place in human history devoid of all oppression and abuse to some degree. We are both a social and hierarchical species, and there always is some tension between the rights of the individual and the demands of the collective.

                All politics is essentially an attempt to find a balance between these competing and yet mutually reinforcing poles.

                History is littered with examples of regimes that we revile and detest because they broke the balance. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot being but recent historic examples. We erect a metaphorical sign post at the door of their legacy warning “These bastards took us over the edge of politics into madness. Here be dragons”.

                But taking the same signpost, and plastering it over every bump and bend on every road robs meaning and purpose from the original. It’s wrong … and very bad strategy … to expropriate of the horror and madness of Hitler’s Final Solution to bolster the case for dealing to child poverty in New Zealand. However much YOU care about this issue; anyone less emotionally invested will see right through what you have done.

                • Olwyn

                  Not sure I agree with you RedLogix. After all, Korero Pono states that such things as mass deportations, etc, are not happening. What he/she is pointing to are the conditions that allow such things to happen in the first place – the exclusion of a group of people from serious consideration. I agree that human beings are hierarchical, but in healthy societies hierarchies rest on mutual interdependence. An excluded group is denied participation in that interdependence, and that is where societies like ours are heading. Financialisation is transforming cities from hubs of manufacturing and shipping into stage-sets for middle class people to play at being celebrities, where the haves no longer need the have-nots and tend to regard them almost as debris.

                  It would be going too far to say that the current situation is “just like” Germany at its worst, but it is not going too far to heed the warning signals. After all, during the 30’s public dialogue was peppered with “Those who served in WW1 will not be subject to ‘relocation'” and “The government has no plans to deny them their war pensions,” etc. Nineteenth century colonisation might be a more fitting comparison, but that is not something to be proud of either.

                  • RedLogix

                    Yes but there is a reason why the internet invented the Godwin rule.

                    Using the Nazi’s as a debating tactic, is the allegorical equivalent of using a nuclear weapon to deal to someone who’s farted in a crowded lift.

                    Sure you can argue that both the Final Solution and Lift -Farting are ‘anti-social’; but the result is pretty much one of two outcomes:

                    1. You get the silence you want

                    2. People stop believing that your bomb is all that big

                    Certainly they are very unlikely to take “Lift-Farting” any more seriously than before.

                    • Grant

                      I seek clarification on Godwins Law. My understanding is that this so called ‘Law’ is (according to wikipedia) really no more than a memetic tool to remind people not to use the Nazi / Hitler analogy too lightly or too quickly. I accept that “Godwin” has a place when used in this way.

                      I have seen Godwins law used by commenters and moderators in another way entirely. As a club to beat people with whenever they mention anything about the Nazis or Hitler, regardless of context.

                      In such cases, “Godwin”, is shouted as though;
                      a) It’s a gotcha
                      b) It’s an actual Law that’s been broken

                      Some people seem not to understand that there’s a difference.

                    • RedLogix

                      I’d mostly agree with you. The original formulation of it was more in the nature of a statistical observation that:

                      “In any given internet thread, the longer it went on the closer the probability of someone mentioning Nazi’s or Hitler approached the value of 1”

                      In other words, most attempts at using the Nazi comparison were attempts at erecting a feeble strawman to distract from the lack of a better argument.

                      You are also correct that used properly there are many aspects of the Fourth Reich’s history that can cast light on our own times as well. Lessons which should never be forgotten.

                      The trick to differentiating between these two cases is to do your homework. If you want to use a Nazi reference, research it, analyse it in a wider political context and justify your comparison in detail.

                      Just using the Nazi’s as a lazy way to smear your opponent will always earn a Godwinning.

                    • Grant

                      * third reich 🙂

                      I’d mostly accept what you say except that it doesn’t examine another class of argument which uses the Nazi analogy. This is the ‘thin end of the wedge’ argument, which doesn’t claim that a particular ‘thing’ is ‘just like’ the Nazis, but reminds the reader that the Nazis started out as a legitimate political party with popular policies which was duly elected and then escalated to full scale authoritarianism.

                      It is an argument (which can certainly be overused) that eternal vigilance is required to make sure that the same mistakes are not repeated by an electorate which doesn’t recognise the patterns of the past being repeated in the present.

                      Of itself I don’t have a problem with people using this line, but I agree it becomes tiresome when used in a loose and lazy fashion.

                      I’ve seen people who were attempting to use it in a serious fashion crapped on from a great height because Godwin.

                    • Tracey

                      Sure but then invoking negative stereotypes of mental illness (loopy) or the violence of Stalinism (commie) is all ok, apparently, no meme to shut that down.

              • The Nazis were good propagandists, just like the National Government.

                Well, yes. All governments are good propagandists, pretty much by definition – if they weren’t, some other party would soon be in government instead. Which means all governments are like the Nazis, if you use that as the criterion for equating them. That’s just one of the reasons why comparing pretty ordinary liberal democratic governments to the Nazis is a bad idea.

                There is nothing harmless about John Key’s pattern of behaviour, on an individual level he is a bully, dismissive toward victims of abuse and on mass scale he uses his influence to ensure thousands of people are abused.

                Yes, he’s pretty unpleasant. Thing is, comparing that with the Nazis is like comparing the guy who burgled your flat with Ed Gein.

              • Reddelusion

                The delusional force is strong in KP

                • fisiani

                  Comparing National to the Nazis is so ridiculous that it is risable. An elephant is like a mouse because it has four legs and a tail is just as risable. Argue your case as you will but the moment National are seriously compared with the Nazis is the moment no one can take you seriously.

                  • RedLogix

                    Comparisons can be tricky things fisiani. Of course on the time scale of human life mice do not become elephants. But in evolutionary deep time, it’s worth remembering that because they are both mammals, mice and elephants DO share a common ancestor. So it’s not an impossible thing.

                    And of course governments and political systems are prone to a much more rapid rate of mutation than living beings. So when your mouse-like government suddenly develops a trunk-like snout and large flappy ears … the astute observer will ask themselves, ‘what the hell is going on here”?

                    History shows that mouse-like governments can transmute quite rapidly and unexpectedly into elephants when the conditions are right. And right now in much of the Western world many of those conditions are becoming disturbingly prevalent.

                    For example, the fact that someone like Donald Trump could get anywhere within sniffing distance of the White House tells a thoughtful person that the American body-politic is a lot sicker than commonly supposed.

                    • Korero Pono

                      + 1 RedLogix and that is the point in the comparison. “just like the Nazis” in my opinion is a fair comparison when a Government uses misinformation to influence the thinking of the majority in order to justify treating a minority like second class citizens. It is propaganda. Interestingly enough, one of the methods the Nazis used was to promote the idea that their “political might was too great or popular to challenge” http://propagandarohan.blogspot.co.nz/ – I see similar tactics used constantly by the stalwarts. Effectively the mouse can become the elephant but that can only happen if the populace buy into the propaganda.

                  • …the moment National are seriously compared with the Nazis is the moment no one can take you seriously.

                    Well, yeah, but a guy who postulates the existence of a disorder called “Key Derangement Syndrome” is hardly in a position to call the shots on who should get taken seriously.

        • Tracey

          Of all the things brought up that stood out as most important, fair enough, but very interesting… will keep scrolling down to see if you addressed the people calling anyone who points out the behaviour of PM in this regard looney (cos you haven’t so far)

          • Psycho Milt

            My standard rejoinder to the “Key Derangement Syndrome” fuckwits is that the term might be treated less derisively if people were putting up billboards comparing Key with Mugabe and other dictators like Farrar et al did to the previous PM. I’m sick of repeating that, but comparing stuff to the Nazis is one of my pet peeves and I don’t get tired of responding to it.

            • RedLogix

              Very, very on point PM.

              Personally I’ve always argued that the left should never, ever underestimate Key. I’ve encountered his species of corporate shark before, and still have the bite marks to show for it.

  17. Lara 17

    White Ribbon are doing more harm than good IMO.

    They are supposed to be standing up against violence, and to do that they need to have a zero tolerance for it in their ambassadors.

    But this is not the first time that White Ribbon have had a public problem with an ambassador not only not upholding their values, but publicly making excuses for male violence towards women in particular. In this instance of which I am aware it took a big social media campaign to get White Ribbon to back down and remove this ambassador.

    White Ribbon in NZ have taken rather a lot of government money to do what they’re doing. Which is… what exactly? To run a wee website. To have a Facebook page. To supposedly promote a message of reducing violence towards women and others while retaining an ambassador who does not uphold their values.

    Government grants for the year to July 2015 $309,940.

    To do what exactly? To employ two people at a cost of $131,076! That’s just over $65K each!

    That’s fucking pissing me off. While Christchurch rape crisis is closed these bastards are riding a gravy train, and not even doing what they say they’re supposed to be doing.

    They should give all that money back NOW and give it to rape crisis and women’s refuge, who actually DO something.

    • emergency mike 17.1

      “The White Ribbon Foundation has, in my view, very carefully and subtly distanced itself from feminist activism in order to align itself with a more corporate, mainstream agenda that ignores the hard work done by underfunded women’s health services across the country.” From your first link.

      I guess that’s when it’s not easy to fire the guy who is writing your funding cheque. There is more than one NGO that exists mostly for the purpose of filling out next years grant renewal application. Sounds like Key’s ambassadorship is bought and paid for. Paid for by the taxpayer that is.

      • Rosemary McDonald 17.1.1

        “There is more than one NGO that exists mostly for the purpose of filling out next years grant renewal application. ”

        Other than the post itself…the most sensible thing said all day.

        The trolls go to bed well fed tonight.

    • Rosemary McDonald 17.2

      Oh dear, Lara…big mistake!

      Never go on the Charities website and look up how much an organisation received in Government (Taxpayer) funding.

      And never, ever trawl through various media reports to see exactly how effective the organisation has been….how much advocacy they have actually done.

      In fact, there seems to be an unwritten rule that the more actual advocacy done means less funding in the next dole out…if any.

      White Ribbon are parasites, and John Key is a textbook psychological abuser.

      They deserve each other.

      (worth a look at WR FB page….their critics don’t hold back)

      • Madeleine 17.2.1

        Look I have survived the past 10 years, actually I have been here for 40 YEARS –

        What does that tell ya?

        It isn’t ME who is BLIND.

        Think, go on ‘think’, try to ‘think’.

        What is HAPPENING?

      • Lara 17.2.2

        I’m the secretary for a local charity.

        Not only do I not get paid for my time, but I pay for the materials to do my job of secretary from my own pocket.

        Not all charities are sponges like this one looks to be.

        And that charity got more funding than the one I work for… and we do an actual job and produce an actual facility for our local community!

        Yes. They’re parasites.

        And with rape being treated as a joke in NZ, rape crisis centres closing for lack of funding, it really REALLY pisses me off.

        White Ribbon NZ looks like a bunch of dudes (and a few dudettes) trying to make it look like they care about our horrific violence stats, when their continued support (for that is what not removing JK as an ambassador amounts to) for a person who has engaged in sexual harassment and makes rape jokes actually goes some way to supporting violence in NZ. Not getting rid of it.

        They’re making things worse.

        And its a huge slap in the face to the many people who actually are helping victims of violence in NZ. Women, children and men.

        It’s quite disgusting.

        • weka

          Thanks for doing that digging Lara. I’d been wondering what their actual kaupapa was but didn’t have the heart to go looking.

          • Tracey

            me too

          • Lara

            You’re welcome.

            As far as I can tell their only principle is to fleece the taxpayer for as much as they can, while doing as little as possible, while looking like they care.

            I guess that is a principle, just not a decent one.

            From my POV as a woman in NZ who has suffered sexual violence I am very very angry about what these people are doing.

            They are doing damage. And we’re bloody well paying for them to do it.

            I’m REALLY angry.

            I’d like to publish the names of all the trustees of that “charity” here. These people should be named and shamed.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              From my comment above: Charities that reject National Party values are vilified and defunded, then replaced by the ideologically compliant.

              Your argument effectively suggests that WRF are the ‘ideologically compliant’ in this situation.

              Thanks for these comments Lara. Much food for thought.

    • RedBaronCV 17.3

      Looks like they employ one full time & one half time. The part time is probably about $25000 and the other $110k will be gong to the fulltimer. Who I assume is the one we hear on the news.

    • marty mars 17.4

      Thanks for the link Lara – very good

      “The question isn’t how we can accommodate men’s feelings of disempowerment to challenge the violence they exert over women. The question is why men experience the loss of privilege over women as disempowerment in the first place.”


      Quite a few of those arguments (answered and dealt with by the author of the article) are used here by some so called lefties.

  18. sabine 18

    Trigger Warning.

    Rape Culture, John Key has it in spades, NZ has it in spades.

    Shakesville.Com is a US blog where some years ago Melissa McEwan attempted to list / explain rape culture. I copied and pasted from her page in the hope that some of our “non readers of links’ would read the available text, and yes there are many many words. But it is a good read, and it is a sad read and it is a read that illustrates just how much rape culture is all around us, and to a large extend we have become blind and deaf to it. In her original piece there are many many links to cases to support her writing. I suggest that reading the piece and following the individual links is not for the faint hearted and may trigger. I have not linked to the complete piece.
    Quote: …………………..Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality.


    Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another (“I’ll make you my bitch”). Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men’s prison reform in part because the threat of being raped in prison is considered an acceptable deterrent to committing crime, and the threat only works if actual men are actually being raped.

    Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is not even talking about the reality that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives. Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who’s around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who’s at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

    Rape culture is victim-blaming. Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. Rape culture is accusing a child of enjoying being held hostage, raped, and tortured. Rape culture is spending enormous amounts of time finding any reason at all that a victim can be blamed for hir own rape.


    Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of barroom risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” and failing to admonish men to not rape.

    Rape culture is “nothing” being the most frequent answer to a question about what people have been formally taught about rape.

    Rape culture is boys under 10 years old knowing how to rape.

    Rape culture is the idea that only certain people rape—and only certain people get raped. Rape culture is ignoring that the thing about rapists is that they rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

    Rape culture is the narrative that sex workers can’t be raped. Rape culture is the assertion that wives can’t be raped. Rape culture is the contention that only nice girls can be raped.

    Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck. Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don’t announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

    Rape culture is people meant to protect you raping you instead—like parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, cops, soldiers, self-defense instructors.


    Rape culture is a ruling that says women cannot withdraw consent once sex commences.

    Rape culture is a collective understanding about classifications of rapists: The “normal” rapist (whose crime is most likely to be dismissed with a “boys will be boys” sort of jocular apologia) is the man who forces himself on attractive women, women his age in fine health and form, whose crime is disturbingly understandable to his male defenders. The “real sickos” are the men who go after children, old ladies, the disabled, accident victims languishing in comas—the sort of people who can’t fight back, whose rape is difficult to imagine as titillating, unlike the rape of “pretty girls,” so easily cast in a fight-fuck fantasy of squealing and squirming and eventual relenting to the “flattery” of being raped.

    Rape culture is the insistence on trying to distinguish between different kinds of rape via the use of terms like “gray rape” or “date rape.”

    Rape culture is pervasive narratives about rape that exist despite evidence to the contrary. Rape culture is pervasive imagery of stranger rape, even though women are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street, making what is commonly referred to as “date rape” by far the most prevalent type of rape. Rape culture is pervasive insistence that false reports are common, although they are less common (1.6%) than false reports of auto theft (2.6%). Rape culture is pervasive claims that women make rape accusations willy-nilly, when 61% of rapes remain unreported.

    Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that there is a “typical” way to behave after being raped, instead of the acknowledgment that responses to rape are as varied as its victims, that, immediately following a rape, some women go into shock; some are lucid; some are angry; some are ashamed; some are stoic; some are erratic; some want to report it; some don’t; some will act out; some will crawl inside themselves; some will have healthy sex lives; some never will again.

    Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that a rape victim who reports hir rape is readily believed and well-supported, instead of acknowledging that reporting a rape is a huge personal investment, a difficult process that can be embarrassing, shameful, hurtful, frustrating, and too often unfulfilling. Rape culture is ignoring that there is very little incentive to report a rape; it’s a terrible experience with a small likelihood of seeing justice served.

    Rape culture is hospitals that won’t do rape kits, disbelieving law enforcement, unmotivated prosecutors, hostile judges, victim-blaming juries, and paltry sentencing.

    Rape culture is the fact that higher incidents of rape tend to correlate with lower conviction rates.

    Rape culture is silence around rape in the national discourse, and in rape victims’ homes. Rape culture is treating surviving rape as something of which to be ashamed. Rape culture is families torn apart because of rape allegations that are disbelieved or ignored or sunk to the bottom of a deep, dark sea in an iron vault of secrecy and silence.

    Rape culture is the objectification of women, which is part of a dehumanizing process that renders consent irrelevant. Rape culture is treating women’s bodies like public property. Rape culture is street harassment and groping on public transportation and equating raped women’s bodies to a man walking around with valuables hanging out of his pockets. Rape culture is most men being so far removed from the threat of rape that invoking property theft is evidently the closest thing many of them can imagine to being forcibly subjected to a sexual assault.

    Rape culture is treating 13-year-old girls like trophies for men regarded as great artists.

    Rape culture is ignoring the way in which professional environments that treat sexual access to female subordinates as entitlements of successful men can be coercive and compromise enthusiastic consent.

    Rape culture is a convicted rapist getting a standing ovation at Cannes, a cameo in a hit movie, and a career resurgence in which he can joke about how he hates seeing people get hurt.

    Rape culture is when running dogfights is said to elicit more outrage than raping a woman would.

    Rape culture is blurred lines between persistence and coercion. Rape culture is treating diminished capacity to consent as the natural path to sexual activity.

    Rape culture is pretending that non-physical sexual assaults, like peeping tomming, is totally unrelated to brutal and physical sexual assaults, rather than viewing them on a continuum of sexual assault.

    Rape culture is diminishing the gravity of any sexual assault, attempted sexual assault, or culture of actual or potential coercion in any way.

    Rape culture is using the word “rape” to describe something that has been done to you other than a forced or coerced sex act. Rape culture is saying things like “That ATM raped me with a huge fee” or “The IRS raped me on my taxes.”

    Rape culture is rape being used as entertainment, in movies and television shows and books and in video games.

    Rape culture is television shows and movies leaving rape out of situations where it would be a present and significant threat in real life.

    Rape culture is Amazon offering to locate “rape” products for you.

    Rape culture is rape jokes. Rape culture is rape jokes on t-shirts, rape jokes in college newspapers, rape jokes in soldiers’ home videos, rape jokes on the radio, rape jokes on news broadcasts, rape jokes in magazines, rape jokes in viral videos, rape jokes in promotions for children’s movies, rape jokes on Page Six (and again!), rape jokes on the funny pages, rape jokes on TV shows, rape jokes on the campaign trail, rape jokes on Halloween, rape jokes in online content by famous people, rape jokes in online content by non-famous people, rape jokes in headlines, rape jokes onstage at clubs, rape jokes in politics, rape jokes in one-woman shows, rape jokes in print campaigns, rape jokes in movies, rape jokes in cartoons, rape jokes in nightclubs, rape jokes on MTV, rape jokes on late-night chat shows, rape jokes in tattoos, rape jokes in stand-up comedy, rape jokes on websites, rape jokes at awards shows, rape jokes in online contests, rape jokes in movie trailers, rape jokes on the sides of buses, rape jokes on cultural institutions…

    Rape culture is people objecting to the detritus of the rape culture being called oversensitive, rather than people who perpetuate the rape culture being regarded as not sensitive enough.

    Rape culture is the myriad ways in which rape is tacitly and overtly abetted and encouraged having saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can’t easily wrap their heads around what the rape culture actually is.

    That’s hardly everything. It’s merely the tip of an unfathomable iceberg.

    • Rosemary McDonald 18.1

      “Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who’s around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who’s at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.”

      Its about POWER.
      Its about CONTROL.
      Its about FEAR.
      Its about having to live in a constant state of hyper vigilance.

      John Key, Prime Minister of New Zealand, will not EVER get this.

      Thanks Sabine.

      • sabine 18.1.1

        but he does get it Rose, sadly so. He is the one with the power and the control and he clearly gets off on the fear and the constant state of hyper vigilance which was aptly demonstrated in the case of the waitress that had her hair pulled constantly to the point that even his wife asked him to stop and he did not and the coppers with him did nothing.

        And to some extend he has enough support in certain parts of town to get a way with it, almost like the first night belongs to the lord of the manor.

        We have not yet left the dark ages behind us. We just got better gadgets and electricity.

        • In Vino

          Yes, mankind’s technical expertise has always outsped his spiritual and moral development. Here we are now quite possibly destroying our own environment despite warnings from the more intelligent and responsible.

          • Magisterium

            check your gendered language

            • sabine

              Word Origin and History for mankind Expand
              “the human race,” c.1300, earlier man-kende (early 13c.), from man (n.) + kind (n.). Replaced Old English mancynn “human race.” Also used occasionally in Middle English for “male persons” (late 14c.), but otherwise preserving the original gender neutrality of man (n.). For “menfolk, the male sex,” menkind (late 14c.) and menskind (1590s) have been used.

        • Karen

          You are absolutely right Sabine.

          This is about power – rape always is. Rape is used as a weapon in war to assert power. Key became PM because he gets off on power. He is a misogynist and he is a bully, and he gets away with his behaviour because there are a lot of people out there who would love to do the same given half a chance so they don’t see anything wrong in what he does.

    • Tracey 18.2

      just the sound of crickets from the apologists after this effort Sabine… thanks

  19. vto 19

    Key Derangement Syndrome.

    Yes it surely is… applicable to his own fanboys like fisi BM and the other wankers above. It is they who truly suffer Key Derangement Syndrome…

    luckily they are in a minority

    • seeker 19.1

      Key derangement syndrome is also suffered by most on the government benches,
      (not sure about Collins), Mike Hoskings, Claire Trevett, Tracey Watkins, Barry Soper,Bill Ralston, Janet Wilson, Heather D.P., Farrar, Obviously Boag, both Espiner’s and Henry will blow his trumpet for Key, if not his flag, so maybe well on the Key deranged spectrum.
      People like Henry have to become deranged about Key in their own interest, because Key is the master at making every thing wrong sound right, which allows all his followers to get away with doing the wrong things, no wonder he is so popular with a certain percentage of the human race in New Zealand. So many humans like to ‘get away with things’ that are wrong……. even into adulthood.
      And they do, until people like Korero Pono and so many other wonderful authors and commenters on theStandard ,call them on it. Thank God

  20. Smilin 20

    “New hat new shoes tell me what Im gonna do
    World goes crazy for a sharp dressed man ”
    This is what we get with a soulless frontman, appearance is everything –
    He thinks its better to seem to be than to actually be what you are suppose to be for ambassadorship

  21. fisiani 21

    Not liking John Key is just opinion. Believing that John Key is a monster it what constitutes Key Derangement Syndrome. The average voter apparently likes John Key. The average voter would apparently gladly have a beer with him. Key and ‘Me’ are thus united. When posters are hysterical and paint John Key as a monster ‘Me’ is offended because by linkage that means ‘Me’ is also a monster. Since I know I am not a monster that means John Key is not a monster and thus you are wrong and anything else you say is discredited.
    7 years of banging away about the Monster PM have not had any impact. Anyone reckon another two years of this will prove to be the tipping point?

    • Paul 21.1


    • Stuart Munro 21.2

      Key is a monster – but trolls are never more than wannabes.

    • Tracey 21.3

      Yet again


      This post is not about liking or not liking Key. It is a focus on a prominent nzer with a history of joking about sexual crime, under action on sexual crime, shameful behaviour on sexual crime (Billingsley) and being an ambassador for a charity which seeks to eradicate many of those same behaviours. That you excitedly beat your chest that it is all ok cos enough people like him speaks volumes about you. Being a sexual or domestic crime victim is not a popularity game no matter how much you seem to want it to be.

      If Clark or Lange behaved this way I would have the same criticisms. Of course they understood the difference between being a leader and pretending to be leader by default of a popularity contest. Sometimes they go together but not with the current PM. Not really his fault given he comes from a non leadership background with no experience or understanding of social interest and impact.

      By twisting the conversation with lies that people criticising this particular behaviour of our leader consider him a monster you do what you accuse others of.


      • Korero Pono 21.3.1

        @ Tracey + 1 – I suspect no matter what the OP is about, if Key is highlighted in any negative light there will always be the stalwarts who will ignore the issue in an attempt to turn it around to the “you are just saying it because you don’t like him” mantra.

        Both you and Olwyn have touched on some salient points. The issue is the issue, there are real concerns about what JK is promoting. It is particularly disturbing that this type of thinking/culture is ignored on a large scale, and it is hugely concerning that the Prime Minister engages in some very disturbing behaviours himself. The Prime Minister (regardless of which political persuasion) has the ability to affect the thinking of vast numbers of people, his actions have shown how blase he is about issues of violence (both physical and sexual). As an ‘ambassador’ for White Ribbon he has essentially committed himself to promoting a violence free life , practicing and encouraging ‘bystander intervention’ i.e. men are encouraged to speak up about behaviours/actions that promote violence.

        His Government have stripped funding from essential services for victims of violence. Meanwhile he is engaging in ‘jokes’ about prison rape, bullying women, engaging in bizarre hair pulling/fondling activities, hiding/ignoring the activities of perpetrators, re-victimising women who have experienced serious assaults, using rape for political gain and disseminating misinformation about particular groups of people (which predominately affects women and children), in order to justify treating them like second class citizens.

        The thing I have discovered about a lot of the stalwart Key defenders is they will resort to labeling, minimising, denying and blaming (all tactics of abuse) in an attempt to switch the focus from JK’s behaviour to our own. Maybe they can’t handle the fact that their beliefs about JK are not congruent with the facts so on a psychological level it is easier for them to blame anyone who highlights his deficiencies rather than acknowledge there is a real issue.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Or perhaps the fact of their abusive behaviour indicates that they see any attempt to reduce violence and rape as a threat to National Party values.

        • Tracey

          Remember the joke to the Chilean leader about our escaped murdering paedophile being at large in her country under his watch

          Thanks for trying with this post. It clearly hit a nerve with some

    • reason 21.4

      Fisisani is the only clown using the word “monster” in relation to John Key ……..

      Bent Key is just a greedy dishonest abusive man ………… White ribbon may as well run up a white surrender flag if they use ambassadors like him ………

      John Key and the nats had a golden opportunity to lower our high rates of domestic violence and sexual abuse when the alcohol law reform bill was before them a few years ago ……………..

      Alcohol is involved in approximately 50% of murders and a large proportion of serious violent and sexual crimes ……….. The nats sided with the profits of the Alcohol producers and turned their backs on the victims of this drug pushing industry.

      Their dirty politics crew ran attacks and smears on health professionals …….

      Amy Admas, Judith Collins, Anne Tolly and the rest of the national party self servers are lying when they claim to care about domestic violence , CYF children or other victims ………… They legislated and voted for the booze industry.

      The Nats made a deliberate decision to maintain a environment where high rates of alcohol abuse lead to high rates of child abuse and domestic violence etc etc

      White ribbon are obviously a fraud and should be shut down with their funding given to the rape crisis centers………….. the nats cut funding to rape crisis

  22. Gangnam Style 22

    Hey BM, is ‘male rapes male’ funny or only “gay rape”? Serious question.

    • Gangnam Style 22.1

      & while you are at it (crickets) tell me a ‘funny’ ‘gay rape’ joke? ‘Gay rape’, your let your mask slip for that one you wanker, you are a homophobic bigot & rape apologist as well. C’mon get some guts & tell me a real funny ‘gay rape’ joke.

  23. Tracey 23

    Is Mark Mitchell a pal of Mike Sabin, or am I confusing my scandals?

    [video src="https://whiteribbonnz.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/mark-mitchell-mp-talks-about-respect.mp4" /]

  24. tracey 24

    From the Charities Website

    Charity Details
    Legal Name: The White Ribbon Campaign Trust Board
    Registration details

    Reg Status: Registered
    Reg Date: 1/08/2013
    Reg Number: CC49471
    Balance Date: June 30
    Address for service

    Charity’s Postal Address:
    PO Box 24332
    Manners Street
    Charity’s Street Address:
    372 Rosebank Road
    Charity’s other details

    Phone: 0272440374
    Email: [email protected]

    Takurua Tawera

    Aaron Morrison

    Mark Longley

    Ric Odom

    Heather Henare

    Alana Bowman

    Total Gross income according to its last return was $350,953
    Of that 131,076 was allocated to its single employee (listed as working 60 hours per week). Cost of trading was 57,083

    Remaining money utilised through expenditure was $134,121

    If anyone wishes to read the Trust deed I urge them to (it is not very long) do so and with the list of key’s behaviours as covered by the various media over recent years.

    It lists who the Trustees are and their occupations. If you read matapono (principles – see 4 and 5) and whainga (purposes – espesh the first few) you will perhaps suspect that Mr Key should be the focus of the education and resource of the Trust not a promoter/Ambassador for it, yet. It seems to be me the biggest danger of having someone like Mr Key in this role is he is very much perpetuating the notion that this is a great cause (but it isn’t about me cos everything is fine with how I behave toward women/girls). And despite the naysayers and meme perpetuators, Key’s reported behaviours are on the spectrum (that he doesn’t champion, or actually rape, does NOT mean he is not causing harm).

    The White Ribbon Campaign Trust Board-20130730 Rules

    • Lara 24.1

      Thank you for posting that Tracey.

      Now if that money had come from private donations I wouldn’t have such a problem with it.

      But according to their return for the year to 30th June 2015 they received government grants / contracts of $309,950.

      While rape crisis centres are closing and constantly scrabbling for money, and womens refuge also under funded and constantly scrabbling for money, this is just sickening.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 24.2

      “Its single employee”.

      The contact, one Rob McCann…wouldn’t be the same Rob McCann who stood for the Labour Party in Otaki…?

      Why yes, yes it would…

      • Tracey 24.2.1

        From its press release it apperas the CEO passed the buck on the Key thing to the Trustees.

        Given the level of gummint funding it would seem communications to WRF would be OIAable. To see if John Key received any training as stipulated in the nomination forms

        BTW an OIA i did on Nick Smith and an event at mt roskill was due on 24 december. Guess what?

  25. maui 25

    Something to think about for the commenters that believe men should be allowed to carry on just being men.

    That’s why when we talk with each other about our sexual activities — in all-male spaces like the locker room and the gym (where there are no women around to hear what we say) — the language we use is often about dominating and controlling women. It’s a language of possession, ownership and violation.

    When you combine this with a world where women are turned into sex objects, where they’re bought and sold (as they are through prostitution, stripping, and pornography), the predictable result is a world where violence, sexualised violence, sexual violence, and violence-by-sex is so common it’s seen as normal.

    This doesn’t mean the dominant culture says rape is okay. It doesn’t. But the culture does endorse a model of masculinity that makes rape inviting.

    • Jesus – yet another reason to avoid gyms like the plague.

      • maui 25.1.1

        Yep, can’t say I like gyms either, excessive vanity involved and exercise while not going anywhere. Best to avoid the cricket, soccer and rugby clubs too if you don’t want to hear “language of possession, ownership and violation.”

        • RedLogix

          Funnily enough you rarely get it in tramping huts. I must hang out in all the wrong places.

          Oh and if anyone is tempted to think tramping is a bit whimpy, consider that about a dozen people die every year in the NZ mountains. And personally I try not to dwell on how many times I’ve come close to adding to that tally.

          Yet the vast majority of people, male and female, trampers and hunters, you meet in the bush are quite the opposite of the boofheaded blokes you talk of above. (Indeed one of the most encouraging things I see in the hills these days is the number of young women out there on their own account, not just dragged along by boyfriends. )

          Now I don’t believe this difference is just because trampers are special people of any sort. We’re not. But certainly the culture and context are different. Any trip comes down to just four things; the terrain, the weather, what’s in your pack, and what’s between your ears. And once you set off, it’s only the last of these four you have any control over.

          The three core elements of motivation are: autonomy, mastery and meaning.. We can find the latter two in almost any endeavour, but in the hills we find a pure form of autonomy that is hard to find in our crowded cities. Most people, including most men, experience very little autonomy in our lives and we hunger for it. We often mistake it for power. Too many men especially, seek to fill that hunger by exerting power over those nearest to us, instead of over ourselves.

          We hunger too for mastery, but again we frequently confuse it for control. Our culture has embedded in it two images of the ‘master’ .. one is the patriarchal model of authority and command, the other the earned model of respect gained through excellence. But in the hills the only thing you can master is yourself and your bushcraft.

          And we seek more than anything else, meaning and purpose in our lives. Yet anyone who has lived a full life will tell you that wealth and fame are nothing. The only enduring thing of value and meaning to us is the fullness, intimacy and richness of our relationships. The companions you walk with in the hills hold a special place in your heart. Even years and decades after.

          Yet too often the bravado macho beery mateship of the changing room, bar and club leaves men floundering in shallowness, bereft of the oxygen of love and respect. My sense is that so much of what we see as male dysfunction … and much for women as well … is the inner need for autonomy, mastery and purpose distorted into power, control and ownership by an economic and social structure that imposes this model from the top down.

          • Sacha

            Thank you. That’s worthy of being a post in itself. If we don’t understand root causes, we can’t fix big social problems.

    • Draco T Bastard 25.2

      We need to have a sit down and consider how we’re discussing sex work.

      I would like to talk about the widely shared article published in E-tangata by Pala Molisa called ‘White Ribbon, Too White And Too Polite’. In many ways this is a great article, but there is a particular view in here about sex workers – a particular mindset – that needs to be changed because of the kinds of social and physical risks it encourages. Risk encouragement is contrary to the intentions of all of us who strive together against (often) gender-based domestic violence. You can read the article here:

      Very strongly, it is not OK to call sex work “commercialised rape”.

      Which I agree with as well.

      • Lara 25.2.1

        It is my opinion that the core problem there is that the writer of that article made blanket statements about sex work and sex workers…. with zero actual experience of sex work himself.

        And it is my considered opinion that any conversation about sex work and sex workers should ALWAYS have the voices of past and present sex workers central.

        Its not so hard to find those voices on the internet these days.

        But far too often we like to pontificate on sex work and sex workers while not actually deferring to their voices, and not even seeking them out.

        It’s probably one of the biggest problems today within feminism. And for wider society… it’s way worse.

  26. McFlock 26

    I think the side debate about what “men” might or might not find “funny” between themselves misses the problem with Key’s behaviour as a White Ribbon ambassador: he does these things in public, on the radio, he endorses these jokes with his participation.

    He might be a prick in private, or he might be quite amiable. I don’t care about that, unless it reaches the areas of veitch or [allegedly] sabin.

    But in public, as prime minister and as a white ribbon ambassador, he’s supposed to say that shit is not okay, not laugh and go along with it. And as pm hes supposed to have some gravitas and dignitas, for fuck’s sake.

    • Tracey 26.1


      And by behaing that way publicly it makes it harder to shift the attitudes of those who have these attitudes with each other.

      I will ask the WRF To confirm IF Key received training as per their requirements and what it consisted of.

    • I would have thought this was Prime Minister 101: intro lecture, “First and most important, keep in mind you’re not down the pub with your mates, you’re the fucking Prime Minister of New Zealand.”

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