Kiwibloggers discuss assassination of “terrorist” Winston Peters

Written By: - Date published: 1:31 pm, October 22nd, 2017 - 143 comments
Categories: accountability, blogs, dpf - Tags: , , , ,

Right wing online forums are going to reach new levels of toxicity over the next 3 years. Someone really needs to monitor them. Yesterday Kiwibloggers were discussing and upticking the assassination of “terrorist” Winston Peters. There will be worse to come.

Extracts –



Update:

143 comments on “Kiwibloggers discuss assassination of “terrorist” Winston Peters”

  1. Pete 1

    That Kiwiblog provides a forum for nutcases won’t trouble David Farrar one jot.

    Goodness knows it’s already the hangout of many sad cases. Their rants were bad enough with National in power. They never faced the reality that that wouldn’t be the case.

    When Parliament opens and the new speaker is in action they’re really going to go spare.

    • When Parliament opens and the new speaker is in action they’re really going to go spare.

      Yep. They’ll be going on about how partisan she is while having spent the last nine years ignoring the pure partisanship from the National Party Speakers.

  2. tracey 2

    Remember cactus kate having clients who wanted Hager dealt to if only they knew where he lived… and Hooten provided the address. Given it was not a forum discussion odd that as a “joke” Hooten felt it necessary to provide an address.

  3. Keith 3

    Kiwiblog is and always has been the National Party propaganda blog. It is their creation run by their man, end of story.

  4. Incognito 4

    I always thought that National was a centre-right political party but this stuff on KWB is something different altogether. I wonder how far & deep tribalism reaches and how many decent Kiwis would feel ‘relaxed and comfortable’ reading this ‘newsletter’ from a media channel of the party they voted for. Hannah Arendt highlighted the banality of evil when decent people in the street don’t speak up and stand up against obvious evil from the outset – complacency leads to complicity leads to hideous acts against fellow humans.

    • JohnL 4.1

      National haven’t been a “centre right” party for over 30 yrs – that’s Labour’s possie. The right wingers have been moving ever more to the right and people don’t seem to have noticed?

  5. Macro 5

    A long time ago in the very distant past I clicked on Kiwiblog once. The comments then were such that I resolved that it was not for me – ever.
    I have never visited the sewer.
    The extracted comments above show that these people are highly disturbed. One would hope that the police will be looking into this.

  6. Brendan 6

    I hope someone contacts the police. I also hope the new government use their resources to stamp out this vitriol and disturbing behaviour.

    Political disagreement is fine. Calling people names (rather than criticism of a person’s actions) is not productive, but still fine. But sanctioning violence (life-threatening violence) because you disagree with somebody’s position has no place in a peaceful democracy like ours. I’m embarrassed these people exist in New Zealand.

    Kiwi blog and Whaleoil might be the haven for National’s minions, but it’s a breeding ground for New Zealand’s own far-right hate trolls. Never, ever have I seen anyone here at The Standard advocate or sanction the use of violence against political opponents. This is sick, and it’s a right-wing problem, not a left-wing problem (well not here in New Zealand), that’s inherent to the anti-democratic mind-set they espouse.

    [lprent: It isn’t just a right-wing problem. It gets moderated out here pretty fast and long bans are often issued. Partly because most advocation of violence are offences against some of NZ’s laws, but mostly because it adds absolutely nothing to any national debate, robust or polite. Which is pretty clear when you read the sewer where the moderation is sporadic, lackadaisical and professionally inept. Even Whaleoil is better these days. ]

    • Andre 6.1

      Sadly, it’s not just a right-wing problem. Leftie commenters here have advocated violence against political opponents. But the difference is it gets quickly jumped on by the moderators here.

      • tracey 6.1.1

        #truestory

      • McGrath 6.1.2

        Kiwiblog tends to have a “looser” standard of moderation and is quite boring on the whole. Best reader commentary is TS and WO, though Staters views on things can be “unique”

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2

      It happens here from time to time, along with lengthy bans and comment deletions.

      As for the National Party’s political violence, mostly it’s the use of poverty as a weapon against citizens, the official denial of basic human rights and so-on. It’s hardly surprising that this sends a signal to their more committed loyalists.

  7. Janet 7

    The sickos on kiwiblog are obvious but this got me today
    In the Herald today
    Did Jacinda Ardern ‘curse’ the All Blacks?
    I am appalled and shocked at the suggestion of this headline and the insinuation in the article that a woman prime minister is a curse on the All Blacks. The evil is already underfoot to undermine this new and exciting team that is going to lead NZ hopefully out of the disasters that have arisen in Nationals care over the last nine years.
    Shame on the NZ Herald for even printing this insidious article.

    • Anne 7.1

      Janet I read that article as a tongue-in-cheek story. It was not meant to be taken seriously.

      • Janet 7.1.1

        Thats how it starts. A joke.

        • Incognito 7.1.1.1

          Hmmm, seeds of distrust sown early …

          • cleangreen 7.1.1.1.1

            Yep truly is.
            National are always combatant that is always their choice ‘mode of operande’.
            Hopefuly this new parliament will make the rules tighter aboout sarc’ snide remarks national always used in Q+A time in parliament now will be culled.

            We hopefully will see that the new Speaker of the house is a good moderator, as Davis carter was always very very very ‘abrasive’.

        • Obtrectator 7.1.1.2

          Exactly. First reaction to anyone objecting to sexual harassment is: “can’t you take a joke?”. And almost invariably it’s anything but.

      • greywarshark 7.1.2

        But sickos don’t go for tongue in cheek. They know no bounds on ideas, and have no sensitivity and shame about their utterances or reflection on their excesses that would result in reining in their opinions. Wa..ers all of them.

        This comment gives prominence to a supposed purity and superiority of ‘hard workers’ that exceeds that of other lesser beings.

        And someone with pseudo JasonJohns pretending to consider and critique the hyperbole put up, then repeating it over again. Then asking others who drop in what they think of it. It is a National Party bottom-dredged beat-up. Ugly.

        Peters is compared to Pol Pot and – When a sicko like him can destroy the aspirations of so many Hardworking NZs who believe in fair play…

        Sometimes the elimination of a clear and present danger [spouting military jargon] is a necessity for the survival of a reasonable society. Assassination may be a step too far, but a society has to protect itself from these types of individuals gaining power. [So he can’t be condemned for inciting, trying to implant the idea, and then weasel out of culpability.]

        Earlier he says: Jason Johns – be careful inciting assassination is a crime.

        rightoverlabour says: Hmm, I’m not inciting it as such, just wouldn’t care if it happened. However, eliminating terrorism is not a crime….9.47 am 21/10/17

        At 7.34pm JasonJohns, disappointed that no-one else has entered the thread stirs it up again.

        And finishes at 7.41 pm
        What’s your position on the assassination of peters jack?
        and do you reckon he deserves the label terrorist?
        intriguing questions.

        The terminology is too literate for your average jock methinks, and there are too many carefully placed commas. Looks more like writing from young rogue lawyers who are ashpirashional.

        This is feeding right into the black hole of some males who have an in-built belief that someone is getting their fair share, and who will never have much because they are wasters of money – on drink, drugs, gambling etc. All completely unsatisfying, and all indulging the self which is never satisfied.

        • red-blooded 7.1.2.1

          Anne was responding to the light-hearted piece in today’s Herald, reporting that some people were suggesting via social media that the ABs lost the recent test match because we had a female PM again (apparently there was a surprise loss not long after Shipley took over, too).

          As for the “terrorist” discussion, there are extremist loonies and conspiracy theorists on the extreme right. Why are we surprised? (And BTW, some commenters on this site are quick to spot supposed conspiracies, too, although TBF I don’t think I’ve ever seen a suggestion that someone should be assassinated when I’ve been reading comments here – and anything like that would be taken down by moderators PDQ if it did appear. A difference in values, I suspect!)

          • newsense 7.1.2.1.1

            Nah, I don’t buy it is light-hearted. Key on the front of Ruby News and Jacinda to blame for an ABs loss.

    • newsense 7.2

      Oh yes the Nats= All Blacks is a strong meme.
      Seen it several times. Tony Veitch had a meme with a hilarious joke about what if South Africa, Australia and Argentina combined their points in the Rugby championship to beat the All Blacks.

  8. cleangreen 8

    Maybe Jacinda/Winston can replicate how another right wing ‘terrorist’ Soros had been funding these terror groups elsewhere, and possibly here to and was banned in Austria.???

    Austria bans George Soros ha ha ha so should we too.

    http://yournewswire.com/youngest-leader-george-soros/

    • joe90 8.1

      so should we too.

      Why?.

      • Foreign waka 8.1.1

        The world’s youngest leader, newly-elected Sebastian Kurz, has informed George Soros that his Open Society Foundation has 28 days to cease and desist operations in Austria or face legal action for “attempting to undermine the democracy of the nation.

        • joe90 8.1.1.1

          Yeah, I get why a leader about to go into coalition with neo-nazis thinks an organisation with the stated goals of building vibrant and tolerant societies whose governments are accountable and open to the participation of all people is a bad thing.

          But why would we?.

      • cleangreen 8.1.2

        Joe,

        Have you any proof that George Soros is not financing any right wing activists undermining other political parties, as this is his activity have you not read the article? http://yournewswire.com/youngest-leader-george-soros/

        • joe90 8.1.2.1

          The nonsense site you linked says Soros is funding riots, being led by groups such as Antifa and Refuse Fascism but you reckon we need proof Soros isn’t financing any right wing activists undermining other political parties.

          Really?.

      • Obtrectator 8.1.3

        Well he certainly “terrorised” the pound sterling once upon a time. In the name of personal profit, not for the sake of any high-minded principles.

  9. Carolyn_Nth 9

    KB is a bit of a lost cause – although incitements to violence, that are not moderated out, should be referred to police.

    However, the mainstream media also has to shoulder some of the blame for some of the comments quoted from KB. They really do tend to run negative lines about Peters. they have through the whole negotiation period.

    The negotiations do seem to have centred on NZF policies and election campaign. I don’t agree with some NZF policies, and I don’t agree with some of Peter’s rhetoric – but he’s not the only MP or political party that can be criticised for those things.

    the whole Peters’ holding the country to ransom meme has been quite widespread throughout the media.

  10. Anne 10

    Further comments by Jason Johns today:

    Jacinda Ardern’s government has been tested and failed. The shambles we have seen since Thursday evening shows she and her colleagues can’t do the job. She’s had a fair go and failed.

    She should do the honourable thing and resign, and allow National to take what is rightfully theirs.

    And:

    The All Blacks were demoralised by the coming of Winston ‘Pol Pot’ Peters to power. Probably many players were anxious. Was their property safe? Would their loved ones be forced to leave the cities and march into the countryside a la Cambodia 1975? Who wouldn’t fail in these circumstances?

    Jacinda Ardern should do the honourable thing and resign over the ABs loss.

    Is he razzing them? Or does he mean what he says?

    • Robert Guyton 10.1

      Either way, who cares?

    • simonm 10.2

      Sounds like a very sore loser to me. I’m lapping this shit up! ;o)

    • Antoine 10.3

      This JasonJohns guy is simply a troll,not a legit poster at all. Kiwiblog has several such. Hope that clears things up

      A.

    • Wensleydale 10.4

      She’s been PM elect for three days. Hardly time enough to be fairly judged on performance. Jason Johns needs to stop sniffing paint and seriously think about getting psychiatric assistance. Either that or he’s just trolling.

  11. Brian Tregaskin 11

    the poster “rightoverlabour” could get themselves into deep trouble if caught
    that sort of post is illegal and would actually carry a custodial sentence (home detention most likely for a first offence)

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1

      Farrar’s house has just been raided by the cops looking for evidence of the identity of his criminal associates, but all they found was an empty bottle of Asti and some teen magazines.

      I made some of that up.

  12. Foreign waka 12

    Is this not hate speech and should there not be an investigation into who those bloggers are not to mention why any media outlet would publish such incitement to unrest and violence?

  13. Ant 13

    Right wing forums will retain power and influence whilst we give them oxygen through counter-attack. I’d prefer to support the new, so eloquently articulated by Jacinda Ardern, through media input, daily action and attitude. Favourable memes that germinate within the currently malleable thought-climate of NZ need nurture and expansion. Furthering the momentum requires action, lived out in our daily lives and with the exploration of fresh avenues of expression, – someone mentioned workshops, others are opening Twitter accounts. Good start. How many of us have tried getting articles into an MSM publication? I have with virtually no success. For several years I’ve run a monthly paper on community living within a sustainable environment (Hurunui). Locals provide input. The district has a flourishing TimeBank and Learning Exchange, – all good examples of decentralisation and community cohesion. Many retirees (like myself) have the time for networking. I’d be happy to attempt nation-wide coordination of similar ventures to showcase the thousands of New Zealanders who live creative lives well clear of capitalism. Like-minded people are here in droves but get little publicity with our MSM primarily fixated on lurid sensation.

    • Incognito 13.1

      Hi Ant,

      What do you think of the following sentence?

      MSM will retain power and influence whilst we give them oxygen through counter-attack.

      In my view, MSM are not just a conduit for reporting news, daily affairs, and advertising; they are a platform for spreading political views and the likes. They also are a tool of capitalism and a very effective one at that. MSM do not speak for or with us, they speak (down) to us, just like politicians for that matter.

      To me it seems that it will be met with increasing resistance in and by MSM when a post-capitalism voice & movement starts to grow stronger.

      For these reasons I think we have to bypass MSM and develop new channels, networks, and ways.

      • Ant 13.1.1

        Actually I was referring primarily to RW blogs, as headed up by the subject of this post. 😉

        “For these reasons I think we have to bypass MSM and develop new channels, networks, and ways.” Yep, that I mentioned in the thread.

        I do agree MSM have long bowed to the dictates of their corporate bosses steeped in neoliberal philosophy. Even the much loved (by many) Guardian lost its mojo a decade ago, as consistently exposed by Medialens

        http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/847-meltdown-the-guardian-s-jonathan-freedland-writes-jeremy-corbyn-s-obituary.html

        As people think so they vote and social media can be the vehicle for hopeful memes far more effectively than some bloke yelling his head-off on a soapbox a century ago.

        I believe its up to us to capture the imagination of the nation (!) by bending every effort to give the emerging narrative form, appeal and coherency.

        • Incognito 13.1.1.1

          I know you were referring to “Right wing forums” in comment 13, which is why I asked for your opinion and I appreciate your reply, thank you.

          I believe its up to us to capture the imagination of the nation (!) by bending every effort to give the emerging narrative form, appeal and coherency.

          I couldn’t agree more. I tend to make small comments in conversations without any intention of going into full-blown discussion. Like they can sow seeds of distrust, we can sow seeds of trust. I also believe the best way to give form to a new narrative is to be the new narrative, which Jan Rivers once described here as “being the change you want to see” https://thestandard.org.nz/building-a-mass-movement/#comment-1121423.

    • greywarshark 13.2

      Soungs good idea Ant. Encouragement of others and oneself, and numbers to build good community initiatives.

  14. eco maori 14

    I no that when working with bovine that I could point in the direction that I wanted her to go and 9 times out of ten she would go where I pointed and the rest of the herd would follow. You see people are like bovine and all it takes for some is a point in the direction that the manipulator wants that person to take and the rest of there M8 will follow them .So we have to take the treat of Media and multi Media seriously and any threats like this seriously as some dum ass idiot mite take what he has read as a sign and try some thing stupid, Multi Media is a serous threat to our democracy we all started off as unintelligent herd animals so we still have the herd behavior .
    I was watching that comedy show you no the one were the head person is M8 with dildo head . And a person that I like has been a guest on there a few times Bryce Casey.
    Well last week he was shining his humor was giving me a sore face . And this week it looked like he was put off his mojo . I wonder what bullshit dildo head has told his M8 about me I no that some of the comedians are on dildo losing side but when they have to bring in that big bully to get to Bryce thats when I step up to his defense .
    Now big boy why don’t you come and try bulling me I’ll have you sucking your thumb and shitting your pants in seconds bIg boy by the way I have a old fishing M8 whom is a Casey From Gisy Kia Kaha Bryce .

  15. mary_a 15

    I would have thought the assassination reference might have been in breach of the Harmful Digital Communications Act, having been posted on an open media site. Or does that only apply to non Natz supporters?

    Could be something for the police to check out, given the threatening nature of the comment!

    • NZJester 15.1

      The Natz ies got away with a lot under the National Government. But they have not yet realized there is a new sheriff in town and one that will apply the law fully and equally to both sides, not just ignore one side and overreact to the other like the old guard.

  16. simonm 16

    If I was to call for the assassination of “Sir” John Key for selling out New Zealand’s sovereignty, it’d take about about 10 minutes before I was in handcuffs answering some very tough questions for the Diplomatic Protection Squad. If I suggested the same thing for Peter Dunne they’d probably call round to drop off a Glock and wish me luck.

  17. Darth smith 17

    There desperate there make beleave world has come crashing down.wait to the house bubble pops there heads will explode.they just can’t handle.haveimg no power what a shame oh well never mind

  18. Anne 18

    The offensive remarks have gone at least from KB. 🙂

  19. cleangreen 19

    “The right have no right to rule now or might any more, but the left have unity of purpose and solidality”

  20. Orthodoxia 20

    Kiwiblog and whaleoil can have some pretty nasty comments (and posts). However the standards comments can get pretty nasty as well at times If someone thinks different ( different from trolling) which makes regular readers like me avoid being regular commentators and just be lurkers because who needs the grief? Civilised debate seems to have long been lost on both sides.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1

      Long lost? It was never there in the first place.

      Never mind the ubiquitous insults, the “bandits! Plunderers!” of ancient Greek rhetoric. Consider the violence required to constrain the debate into such a narrow Overton Window: harsh language is nothing by comparison.

    • peterlepaysan 20.2

      Have to agree. LP has accused me of being a troll because I raised a perfectly innocent queation about climate change.

      The question was not about climate change ( I am unaware of climate stasis on this planet, ever) but what we knew about it.

      CO2 emissions have a lot to answer for but are not the only players on this planetary
      speck.

      Human (homo sapiens variety) settlement of the planet out of Africa depended on climate change.

      Pre – indusrrial climate change is not understood but asking questions about that is verboten.

      • Macro 20.2.1

        🙄
        If you wish to display ignorance by asking stupid questions wrt to AGW then expect a serve from practically every commentator on here.
        The science behind the recent and unprecedented Global warming is well understood and quite unlike anything the Earth has experienced previously.
        However this is quite off -topic.
        Furthermore, no one here is suggesting that someone should take physical violence or do harm to anyone, even if they do have naive beliefs wrt Climate Change. Their children and grand children, may not hold them in high regard, and may accuse them – quite correctly – of holding back progress in mitigation and harming their future – but that is for them and their conscience.

      • lprent 20.2.2

        The problem is that you clearly haven’t bothered to investigate the available science, but you endlessly state that what it known MUST be wrong.

        Then you refuse to actually provide any credible links to where you are getting your leading “questions” from and/or get upset when the credibility of your sources for those questions is questioned.

        When we have a post on matters of laziness, superstitions and mythologies rather than science, you are welcome to raise your ideas. Or you can raise them in Open Mike. But otehrwise the topic is that put in by the post author. Not some lazy dimwits deliberately mastubating their egos by placing disruptive comments on posts about topics that they clearly haven’t bothered to take the time to understand. I define that behaviour as being a troll.

        In your case on that topic, you aren’t even a useful troll. You can’t argue coherently and drop into “I’m a victim” mode at the first critical counter-comment.

        So you get booted out of posts and off the site if you persist.

    • lprent 20.3

      It was part of the trade off when the site was started. We could have tried to make the site far more placid, but we went for “robust debate” in 2007/8 instead because it was pretty clear that there was a concerted dirty politics campaign being run. The first few times we had the arsehole brigade coming in as a coordinated group from whaleoil and kiwiblog made that quite clear.

      The only real way to control that on this site and generally in the memes was to be able criticize stated positions bluntly, robustly, and without bothering to be particularly nice while doing so. Unlike Whaleoil, Kiwiblog, Keeping Stock and number of the other blogs at the time and later we just did it without breaking any laws and without showing their curious lack of ethics or morality.

      We started moderating primarily to control such troll attacks. The only effective way to do it, and to make the perpetrators not want to come back, was to dig deeply into their limited egos and be highly critical of their idiocy. Fortunately after 3 decades around networked social media, I’d developed a strong dislike of trolls and people being deliberately disruptive to debate.

      So I was happy to hop in and show just how nasty they looked to me. By the simple tactic being more extreme in whatever mode they were using and then applying it to them. I still do that when the other moderation techniques don’t work. That is what most people see when they look at the “nastiness” on this site. Apart from that most of the commenters and moderators will simply call a fool to be a fool. If someone’s ego has a problem with being targeted by that, then they should read the founding policy of this site that calls for robust debate. That is a two way system that doesn’t really require politeness, but does mean that people need to be able to defend whatever ideas that they care to put up from close criticism – just like everyone else has to.

      But if you have another solution for dealing with the shit spewing arseholes of net known as trolls, then can I suggest you contact Netsafe. I am sure that they will be interested.

      In the meantime I suspect that we will carry on using the methods that have demonstrated to work for us. There is always Public Address if you want polite and generally vapid conversation.

  21. Ian 21

    Not threats but action from left wing eco terrorists in Canterbury.Call your rabid dogs in or things will get ugly I can see.

    [lprent: Link please. Or should I just view that as being you stupidly lying and operate accordingly? ]

    • McFlock 21.1

      who dun wot now?

    • millsy 21.3

      Oh, we have only just begun, Ian. We have only just begun, The Second October Revolution has taken place, You have lost all right to complain when you have made the choice to poison your communities water supply to ensure a boost in your profit margin. As far as I’m concerned, you deserve everything you get.

      [lprent: You really need to read moderator warnings. Implied threats are still threats. Banned for two weeks. ]

    • Graeme 21.4

      Oh, someone saw a wee insurance opportunity….

      There’s another way of looking at that

    • Ian 21.5

      Targetting an ecan councillor in that way is not the NZ way .I don’t have a link and if I did I would be giving it to the NZ police
      As you know ,I am a dairy farmer and what happened over this weekend is a step too far.
      The extreme element of the campaign of hate directed at dairy farmers obviously feel they have a bit more traction now that The labour and Green party are now in power.

      • McFlock 21.5.1

        So beyond “not the NZ way”, nobody can have any idea wtf you’re talking about.

        Was it a deleted comment, an email, a comment in a bar? And you don’t need corroborating evidence to tell the cops – tell them anyway, if you know someone who is making threats. Corroboration helps, but you’re the evidence.

        • ropata 21.5.1.1

          Probably referring to this story.

          Not only did farms have their pivot tyres slashed, I know of2 farms who had milk let out of vat.Tell me anti ruralcampaign didn’t damage NZ pic.twitter.com/iGHKejPW82— Megan Hands (@HandsMegan) October 21, 2017

          My responses:

          Farmers still running a smear campaign. Now accusing political opponents of criminal damage. It's a crime, tell the cops. https://t.co/I1u18P37ck— ɥɔsǝdɐd qoɹ (@ropata) October 22, 2017

          Sad that the rural community has set itself against progressive government… need a more constructive attitude— ɥɔsǝdɐd qoɹ (@ropata) October 23, 2017

          • McFlock 21.5.1.1.1

            hmm, nothing about an ecan counselor there.

            Although I’m not actually sure how I feel about the tyre slashing etc. I’m all for non-violent direct action, but it’s not like slashing the inflatable shrouds over the malborough sat dish. It’s hitting family incomes while having no impact on the corporation behind them. It’s a bit like attacking the fashion industry by burning down sweatshop workers’ homes.

            But on the other hand the blue baby thing is a definite motive for people in the region.

            Probably bloody PETA though.

            Edit: with an outside chance it’s a Feilding-style farmer family dispute.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 21.5.1.1.1.1

              Probably bloody PETA though.

              Could just as easily be yet another Ewan McDonald or Jeremy Hamish Kerr or Alan Titford.

        • Ian 21.5.1.2

          I like fishing and catch a feed. I use bait and I just caught an idiot. Your lucky ,I just Placed you back in the water. Hopefully you weren’t a breeder.

          • McFlock 21.5.1.2.1

            Oh, so you were just making shit up? Yeah, call me an idiot for taking you at your word and trying to figure out wtf you’re talking about.

            But seeing as you raised Ecan, are they even democratically elected yet, or still under the dictatorship of brownlee the eighth?

            • Ian 21.5.1.2.1.1

              Rather than asking for links all the time how about doing some research for yourself. Robert Guyton knows all about it . I don’t make shit up. I am just another Canterbury dairy farmer that have raised their security levels as a direct result of the Government elect.

              [there is an expectation here that if you make claims of fact you will back them up if asked to, especially if the claim is contentious. Read the Policy. – weka]

              • Macro

                Well good for you.
                No you don’t make shit up – you just spread it everywhere and into the groundwater.

                • BM

                  http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/10/vandals-spill-milk-slash-tyres-on-canterbury-farms.html

                  [lprent: Thanks for that. Ian has been going on about this for what seems like days without linking to anything. I see that RNZ has an article as well. ]

                  • McFlock

                    Oh! So the farmer that had their milk dumped was an ECAN counselor. Thanks, that was easy enough to freaking say.

                    Where’s he stand on blue babies? Sole voice on ECAN in favour of cleaning up the water supply?

                  • Macro

                    Well that wasn’t too difficult was it! Pity poor ol Ian hasn’t got the ability to post a link to back up his accusations.

                  • Macro

                    You know it’s what some people do when they are not given a voice, or are frustrated and feel they are not being heard. They take direct action.
                    I don’t happen to agree with that and nor would most others. But the fact remains that farmers have been particularly arrogant wrt to their perceived rights to pollute and use the commons of this country to their advantage to the detriment of others and one could say “they had it coming”.

              • McFlock

                Okay, I’ll just file that alongside everyone else on the internet who just says I should already know what’s in their brain after claiming that they were on a fishing expedition.

              • Anne

                I am just another Canterbury dairy farmer that have raised their security levels as a direct result of the Government elect.

                Oh for god’s sake! What a bunch of ill informed bat-crazy idiots you must be then? Security from what? Hope it costs you an arm and a leg. Stupidity like that is deserving of nothing less.

                I suppose every time someone is burgled or someone trashes something you’re going to say… it’s the Ardern government who were responsible.

                God forgive them cos they know not what they say…

              • weka

                See moderation notes in this thread.

              • Ian

                2 nights ago an unknown person entered the private property of an ecan councillor,Mr James Sunkell and drained over 6000 litres of milk into the drain. The same night , at Hororata another farmer had 30 tyres ruined by
                someone drilling a large hole thru them with a cordless drill.
                The only comments on this blog have been that it was probably an insurance job. Just saying weka that the moral compass here at this moment is being pulled by some pretty evil forces.
                I would have expected theperson elect for agriculture and rural communities might have come out of their shell. This is serious shit and needs to be nipped in the bud.

                • Anne

                  And what pray tell me has any of that to do with the newly elected Labour-led government which hasn’t been sworn in yet?

                  We are currently still being governed by the Nat led govt. in a caretaker capacity until this coming Thursday. So, you’re blaming the wrong govt.

                • McFlock

                  So in the world according to Ian, a polluted water supply that causes sometimes-lethal “blue baby syndrome” is “blue waffle“, while holes drilled in tyres and some spilled milk is “serious shit and needs to be nipped in the bud”.

                  • BM

                    People will end up dead if they want to travel this path.

                    To be honest, I’m a bit concerned about the future of NZ, it’s really becoming rather polar.

                    • McFlock

                      No, people will end up dead if they want to escalate this path. What’s the vector for mortality of 6000L of spilled milk?

                      Whereas, sooner or later, blue babies will end up dead if we merely maintain the current pollution levels indefinitely.

                    • BM

                      Looks like it won’t be too long until we’re looking at each other down a barrel of a gun.

                      You’d be happy though, that seems to be the end goal of the left.

                    • weka

                      I don’t own a gun, so it won’t be me.

                    • McFlock

                      Don’t be a dick.

                      This is like every other artificially constructed division in NZ, from “iwi/kiwi” to “asian invasion”. It’s a conflict invented by the nats’ advertising dicks because they know segment division is the only way they’ll come close to winning.

                      Sooner or later Canterbury farmers are going to have to use their land in ways it can sustain, rather than exploiting it for all they can in the short term. Just like the petrochemical industry, or manufacturers of unsafe cars.

                      As soon as tory marketers find a better segment split, your fears of rural/urban civil war will disappear. Pretty soon, probably, given the inroads NZ1 will get in the tory farm vote as they parade themselves ‘keeping labour and the greens in check’ (my line AFAIK, but I suspect NZ1 will be using it before long) while merely slowing but not stopping the needed water quality improvements.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      You and me both, although to be honest not as concerned as I was a week ago.

                      I agree that NZ society has become increasingly polarised, and volatile – ‘desperate times’ and all that. But, to be honest, who would be best served by more “‘Terrorists’ and truncheons”?

                      Don’t know what the future holds, but certainly more of the same would have been bad. Personally I think that the best way to stem the tide of polarisation is to rebuild and support apolitical public institutions and services. Supporting the rule of law, and our democratic institutions, would mean saying bye-bye to this sort of corruption, at least for a while:

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/67438119/Democratic-ECan-carries-too-many-risks-says-Nick-Smith

                      Not to mention being able to rely on DoC to protect and restore our wildlife and wild places, rather than leaving the heavy lifting to independent conservation organisations:

                      http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/publications/media-release/forest-bird-successfully-defends-nz-conservation-land-in-supre

                      It’s time not just to hope, but to act in support of all New Zealanders.

                • Ian 9 times out of 10 anyone who sabotaged a dairy farmer is a disgruntled as dairy worker and you know that. When I worked on a dairy farm the ex employee sabotaged the milk and other things before he left.

  22. millsy 22

    OK. if they want to kill WP, then perhaps [deleted]

    They will probably be looking at about 10-20 years in Paremoremo. But seeing as they think its a 5-star luxury hotel with silver service, should be all good.

    [lprent: Suggestions of illegal acts is actually a crime. Could you calm the fuck down before I have to make you? ]

  23. DH 23

    I’d be interested to know what psychologists would conclude about some of the posters there. I visit the site rarely but always come away with the impression there’s a lot of sadists there. Their hurtful words, rather shamelessly, reveal a desire to hurt. There’s a thick vein of malevolence in the threads that’s quite unsettling.

  24. AB 24

    Serious question. Is it worth going over to KB or Stuff and commenting there? Will it make any sort of positive difference?
    And if it does, how should one play it – relentlessly positive, jokes and mockery or unabashed trolling and provocation? The second option is the one I find easiest somehow.
    Not that I really have time for any of these, but would like to make some sort of effective contribution.

    • Carolyn_nth 24.1

      Why add to their click stats?

      IMO, t’is best to develop more positive arguments and narratives elsewhere.

    • JanM 24.2

      Help no – it doesn’t pay to give sites like that oxygen !

    • weka 24.3

      Personally I think there are better ways to serve the cause, but I don’t spend time there so I don’t have sense of what works. Ask Robert Guyton, he’s done some time there at KB.

    • Antoine 24.4

      > Serious question. Is it worth going over to KB or Stuff and commenting there? Will it make any sort of positive difference?
      > And if it does, how should one play it – relentlessly positive, jokes and mockery or unabashed trolling and provocation? The second option is the one I find easiest somehow.

      What on earth would make you think that spending your time mocking people on an internet blog site would make “any sort of positive difference”?

      If you want to do something constructive, go help someone in the real world.

      A.

  25. weka 25

    Russell Brown, in response to the KB comments,

    “I suspect the grim reality of this Parliamentary term will be a non-trivially-sized group lurching over into alt-right territory.”

    I think that needs to be taken seriously. There’s this too, Prebble talking with a straight face on national televisions about a coup, and here’s a National MP railing against the new govt and calling it illegitimate (and note the suggestion Peters and his mates should cut their own throat).

    These are small things, easy to ridicule, but there are people in NZ who actually believe this stuff and I expect that National will take advantage of that in fomenting discontent and encouraging the alt right.

    • Carolyn_nth 25.1

      As I think Tiso replied – this claim of a coup, from the Nats, when many Nats were pressuring the Green Party to betray their voters and go into coalition with the Nats.

      the contradictions of the right wingers need to be highlighted at every turn. they are quick to make claims of undermining democracy and the political system when it suits them. However, also when it suits, they will operate in many ways that undermine democracy – win at all costs.

      They have no respect for democratic process. For many on the right it’s all about spin, PR and, if that fails, underhand dirty politics. Whatever it takes to become an elected dictatorship.

    • joe90 25.2

      When an opposition MP goes full wingnut.

      It is rather concerning to see an opposition MP claiming the new govt was installed by a coup. #nzpol pic.twitter.com/ipzmrFazd8— Matthew Beveridge (@matthewjpb) October 22, 2017

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMxG2z1UIAEr-yo.jpg

    • mauī 25.3

      Isn’t the alt-right in New Zealand our mate Winston? If more nat voters went over to him that would be good. The other candidate for alt-right I see is Gareth Morgan and if disparaged nat voters went to him that’s good for the left too because he has policies that can be worked with.

      I can’t see some crazy alt-right movement with an evil dictator being born here if that’s where Russell Browns comment was going.

      Right voters looking for alternative media and explanations for things is great news in my book.

      • Carolyn_nth 25.3.1

        Nah. Peters is old right.

        Alt-right is WO. Possibly Plunket and Morgan – but I don’t see them being good for the left.

      • weka 25.3.2

        Neither Peters nor Morgan are alt-right. Although I see some overlaps in Morgan’s position on solidarity politics, I doubt he is for instance an MRA. I see some overlaps with Peters’ position on immigration, but I don’t believe that Peters is a white supremacist. Like Carolyn, I see him as old school conservative, with a centrist social conscience. He’s not hard right, and he’s not a fascist.

        There are already alt-right people in NZ. I took Brown’s comment to mean that the disaffected hanging out in places like KB will be looking for somewhere to belong now that National are out of power. Alt-right seems a good fit to me, for some of them at least and I think it’s wise to be looking at this.

        The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism and neo-conservatism in favor of nationalism and paleo-conservative ideas. White supremacist[1] Richard Spencer initially promoted the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism and did so according to the Associated Press to disguise overt racism, white supremacism, neo-fascism and neo-Nazism.[2][3][4] The term drew considerable media attention and controversy during and after the 2016 United States presidential election.[5]

        Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic and white supremacist,[6][7][8] frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism,[9][10][11][12] nativism and Islamophobia,[13][14][15][16][17] antifeminism, misogyny and homophobia,[9][18][19][20][12] right-wing populism[21][22] and the neoreactionary movement.[6][23] The concept has further been associated with several groups from American nationalists, neo-monarchists, men’s rights advocates and the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump.[13][22][23][24][25]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

        • mauī 25.3.2.1

          I hadn’t actually looked up the definition before and I wasn’t aware the label was that extreme. Alt-right to me sounds like alternative right, so I’ve thought it was more based around people who don’t fit the traditional right mould anymore. Maybe I’ve been watching too much RT..

          • weka 25.3.2.1.1

            Yes, it’s most definitely not just RW people looking for something new. Has very specific meaning in the US in particular which I think unfortunately is becoming transferrable here.

    • Ian 25.4

      So whats with the Alt left making terror attacks on Canterbury Dairy farmers this weekend ? We are law abiding,family businesses ,pay all our taxes on time and are community focused. Not a whistle from the new regime. Does this mean that draining farmers milk silos and spiking their Center Pivot tyres is now acceptable because dairy farmers are dirty dairy farmers ?

      • weka 25.4.1

        ‘alt-left’ is a pejorative used by RWers, theres not really any such thing as the alt left.

        Vandalism happens all the time, do you really expect Labour to comment on each case? Shouldn’t it be something that the police are dealing with, in which case the government shouldn’t be getting involved?

        “We are law abiding,family businesses ,pay all our taxes on time and are community focused.”

        Wrecking the environment isn’t considered community focussed but the opposite. As for law abiding, plenty of farmers breaking the rules, so spare us the propaganda. The good farmers aren’t served by you lying about the bad ones.

        “Does this mean that draining farmers milk silos and spiking their Center Pivot tyres is now acceptable because dairy farmers are dirty dairy farmers ?”

        Who has said it’s acceptable?

        • Ian 25.4.1.1

          With respect Sir Weka. You may be right. BUT the vandalism that occurred is actually terrorism. You reap what you sow. We are sowing the winter feed for our livestock right now. I am worried about the seeds that have been sown by the new government.In Canterbury bad farmers would be 5 % if that. The turkeys that vot ed for christmas think that figure is 95 % . The truth may come out one day . Enjoy your high interest rates ,expensive fuel and butter.
          Winston is a horse trader. Like a good sheep ,cattle or horse trader the profit is in the teeth. I know,because I have had lots of experience and made a few bucks along the way doing just that.

          • Anne 25.4.1.1.1

            I am worried about the seeds that have been sown by the new government.

            You’re nuts!

          • weka 25.4.1.1.2

            “BUT the vandalism that occurred is actually terrorism.”

            how so?

            “In Canterbury bad farmers would be 5 % if that”

            I don’t think so. It’s not black and white, and obviously it’s not 5% of farmers that have polluted rivers to the degree that has happened. Anyone who belongs to Fed Farmers has special responsibility. I don’t think it’s 95%, I think it’s a graduated scale.

            Fuel and butter are already expensive in case you hadn’t noticed. National haven’t been doing the rest of us favours, despite the favours they’ve been doing farmers.

            • Ian 25.4.1.1.2.1

              Weka. We as a group have been much maligned. There are not many dairy farmers in Canterbury and most are still family owned and managed. We are not a cohesive group but that is about to change.
              I don’t know Jim Sunkell personally but I know of his long and dedicated servive to St Johns and the wider community. That the extreme left considers him a target because he is a dairy farmer and an elected ecan councillor is vile and disgusting. The silence from you and your associates confirms all I know.

              [if you have evidence that the vandalism was done by people politicised to the left, please produce it. Otherwise you look like you are making shit up. You’ve had a free rein under this post, and ample opportunity to support your argument. I can’t stop you politicising a crime in a stupid way, but there is a limit here on making claims of fact especially where they are being used to manipulate political debate. Front up with some evidence (and no, your personal reckons don’t count). – weka]

              • weka

                Please read the moderation note and respond.

              • weka

                “There are not many dairy farmers in Canterbury…”

                From my green politics perspective, that’s a nonsense. Who judges what many is? If the load on the ecosystems is beyond those systems to cope then there are too many dairy farms. Numbers on their own are irrelevant.

                Also, the problem isn’t how many farmers there are, it’s how many farms and cows, and how those farms are being run. I get that this is a personal issue for you, and I personally feel sympathy for many farmers. The problem is that your position is that farmers aren’t doing harm. They are, and they have been for a long time. Even now when that is blatant there are still too many farmers who want to see what they can get away with. As long as that is still going on there will be increasing push back, and yes, prejudice, against farming.

                Your other option is to get on board with what the Greens are wanting to do, which is to use government money to help farmers to transition to sustainable farming. For the life of me I can’t see why farmers wouldn’t leap at the chance of that, except where individuals are wanting to make lots of money at the expense of others.

                • Macro

                  Oh beat me to it! I was about to say exactly the same. 🙂

                  • weka

                    🙂

                    I’m looking forward to seeing what the Greens can do despite the lowered budget and less policy gains. Also how it will mesh with NZF’s regional development plans.

                    Ardern said the other day there will be lots of planting of trees.

                • Ian

                  If the greens can come up with a package that is sane ,credible and science based that would increase our bottom line it will be a winner. At the moment they have no credible policies that meet the criteria.

              • Ian

                The ecan councillor who had his milked dumped has no disgruntled employees
                If the police leads come to something I will provide a link

                • weka

                  “If the police leads come to something I will provide a link”

                  Thanks. In the meantime please understand that making claims of fact do require backing up, so if you go down this road again you will likely get moderator attention.

                  “The ecan councillor who had his milked dumped has no disgruntled employees”

                  Sure, he says that. He could be mistaken though.

          • Graeme 25.4.1.1.3

            It might not be a good idea to go around calling this terrorism. Generally that’s excluded from insurance cover.

            Or is that the idea. Make a mountain out of a mole hill, and create division and conflict to destabilise society.

        • lprent 25.4.1.2

          Who has said it’s acceptable?

          And that is the important point. Like anything that is a crime (like a plot to hack my servers), it is the responsibility of the police first and the court system second to determine culpability, judgement and sentence. It is neither the responsibility of the government nor that of the people on this site.

          We don’t do the investigation. We don’t know the facts. We don’t judge or sentence.

          All apparently we have is some reports from Ian. I literally cannot see either of those instances reported via a google search using his terms.

          There is literally nothing for me to make my mind up with, apart from saying that the facts he reported make it look like a crime was committed regardless who did it. Has it been reported to the police?

          In other words, exactly what I say to people who get their cars ripped off or their apartments broken into around here. Something that happens reasonably frequently and appears to be related to poverty that hasn’t been dealt with.

          Updated: Ah I see BM had a link. And the police have been informed.

          • Ian 25.4.1.2.1

            If I tell a lie ban me. But please stop suppressing the truth. An elected Ecan councillor had his milk dumped and it’s fake news. Crimes like that are extremely rare in rural Canterbury. I doubt this crime is related to poverty and you know it.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 25.4.1.2.1.1

              Nasty slur on poor people there. Is white collar crime motivated by poverty? How about Macdonald?

              I can see you’re trying to fit the Left into the frame. Says something about you.

              Maybe someone has decided that the best way to defend children against you is a monkeywrench, but if so, they’re being awfully selective about it.

              ECAN has been known to prosecute the odd cockie. Fines in the 10s of ks. Revenge is just as much a motive as protecting babies.

            • weka 25.4.1.2.1.2

              You’ve basically made up a whole bunch of shit in this thread, and when asked for evidence refused to give it until well into the piece. Even then the link doesn’t support your assertions, it just confirms that the vandalism happened and to whom.

              I’m good with banning you if you do that kind of derail again. Next time put up a link yourself, and be prepared to back up your assertions.

      • lprent 25.4.2

        FFS: It is about as acceptable as when I and 4 other cars had two curbside tires cut into one night in Grey Lynn in 2011. Or when we had a spate of car thefts from my apartment garage in 1998 and 1999. Or the crazy nut who one day wandered along the bottom floor of my apartment block putting the boot into apartment doors to break them open for a quick rifle of the apartment for saleable goods. Or whoever broke into a locked shed inside a locked garage and pinched some electronics stored there while someone one was moving. Or…

        It is a crime. Report it to the police and the insurance company. Hope that they can pull someone into the courts for it. And get efefctive security on those farms. We don’t want thousands of litres of milk getting dropped into the waterways because there wants a decent lock securing it.

        In my cases, I and others affected did that and also spent my money or the body corporates money or the insurance money rectifying it, and putting in better security so it didn’t happen again. I stopped leaving my car on the street. For the body corporate I changed the security systems to require a card access in and OUT of the garage. Everyone replaced or repaired the frigging expensive cedar doors, and did what I’d done years earlier and put a hefty deadlock on the door (hope that hurt the fuckers leg if he kicked it). Sometime soon I’ll be spending some serious money to get secure storage in my carparks in the garage.

        But whining about something that the police have

        • Ian 25.4.2.1

          FFS just because you got done over by poverty stricken thugs the best advice you have is to get over it, So do I take my center pivot to bed with me at night. You truly don’t have a clue. It is so easy to claim from the insurance company . I didn’t take out insurance to keep leftist thugs in business. But your probably right. How can we farmers protect our irrigators and other assetts from attacks from new era disruptors.
          The answer is security cameras .

          [ok, I’ve had enough. You have zero evidence who committed this crime let alone that they are aligned to the political left. Stop making shit up, there are plenty of other aspects of this issue to talk about. Learn how to tell the difference between expressing an opinion and asserting a fact, and understand that this is a political forum where facts need to be backed up. 1 week ban – weka]

          • One Anonymous Bloke 25.4.2.1.1

            What makes you think you haven’t got yet another Ewan MacDonald on your hands? Alan Titford – this is the sort of thing he used to do.

            Look to your neighbours.

  26. Michael 26

    FWICS, Whaleoil is targetting Bill English and openly recommending Crusher Collins as his replacement, while sniping at alternative candidates. That might be where the Right will focus itself for a while, allthough we can expect to hear a lot about Winston’s declarations to MSD on his superannuation forms.

  27. McFlock 27

    edit: deleted reply to deleted comment

  28. Detrie 28

    Although not a scientific poll, a quick look at the likes/dislikes on the NZFirst plus Winston’s Facebook pages tells me that the overwhelming majority [93%] of his followers agreed with his decision and the outcome. That just leaves the loony 7% that we see here. Plus factor in another 7% on the Nat side… That’s a lot of hatred.

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