Labour moving “too far to the left” – Andrew Little responds

Written By: - Date published: 9:02 am, December 2nd, 2016 - 264 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, humour, labour - Tags: ,

According some Legget guy that no one has ever heard of, Labour is moving “too far to the left”. Andrew Little responds:

The kind of unguarded human moment that we seldom see from our politicians.

And before the debate starts, I think it’s perfectly appropriate for Labour to aim for the center. Let other parties collect votes on the left – work with them – it’s the magic of MMP.

264 comments on “Labour moving “too far to the left” – Andrew Little responds ”

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  1. KJT 1
    2 December 2016 at 9:32 am

    If an entitled “snowflake” thinks Labour is “to far to the left” then Labour is heading in the direction it should be.
    For too long Labour has appeared to stand for nothing but a type of fuzzy managerialism.
    (Too many if those MP’s are still there. Like Leggat, interchangeable with National MP’s. I dont envy Andrew Little.)
    We can get that from National.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1
      2 December 2016 at 10:52 am

      +1

      Except that National’s managerialism is all about enriching the already rich at everyone else’s cost whereas Labour really does try to make life better for the majority. They only fail because they follow the same, failed, ideology as National.

    • Nessalt 1.2
      2 December 2016 at 3:55 pm

      and National is in government and caning it in the polls. So the electorate is getting it from National. From the sounds they’re making the quite like what they’re getting.

      That’s ok, don’t be a broad church, don’t win elections. Honestly, no one cares.

      • Matthew Whitehead 1.2.1
        3 December 2016 at 11:29 am

        National isn’t “caning it in the polls.” Current trends suggest they will just manage to squeak back into government, if any inaccuracies in the polls favour them over Labour. We are in a statistical dead-heat between an outright National government and NZF deciding the winner.

    • Matthew Whitehead 1.3
      3 December 2016 at 11:27 am

      Labour wouldn’t know “too far left” if it hit them like a truck.

      Andrew’s reaction is appropriate as he knows he is leading a centrist party.

  2. WILD KATIPO 2
    2 December 2016 at 9:45 am

    Andrew Little certainly does exhibit a keen sense of humour…

  3. marty mars 3
    2 December 2016 at 9:54 am

    “I think it’s perfectly appropriate for Labour to aim for the center. Let other parties collect votes on the left – work with them – it’s the magic of MMP.”

    which other parties?

    so labour = centre-left. Greens = centre-left.

    There are no LEFT parties and frankly that is the problem.

    Mana – cannot count on them especially when the tie up with the Māori Party seems likely.

    basically the LEFT has been abandoned by all and sundry – never thought I’d see that happen in my lifetime.

    As for Littles laugh – he’s laughing because the question is preposterous – Labour moving too far left? – wtf is it April 1 already lol

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.1
      2 December 2016 at 10:22 am

      “…basically the LEFT has been abandoned by all and sundry – never thought I’d see that happen in my lifetime.”

      Yep, and it is going to be very interesting to see how many of us do not vote in the next election.

      Folk are simply over voting for the lesser of evils.

      • The lost sheep 3.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 10:36 am

        The reason there are so few options for Far Left voters in NZ is that there are so few Far Left voters.
        There simply isn’t the threshold of ‘demand’ for such Parties to stimulate someone to put in the effort and resources to establish a new Far Left entity.

        Unless one of you here complaining about the lack of Far Left options is going to do so?

        • marty mars 3.1.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 10:45 am

          forget the ‘far left’ spin – try just ‘left’ mate. The centre of balance has shifted so that the ‘left’ appears like some mythical ‘far left’ when actually it is just ‘left’.

          • The lost sheep 3.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 11:05 am

            Whatever the flavour of Left it is you believe is not represented, the same syndrome is true.
            If there were a significant number of voters out there looking for such a Party, such a Party would come into existence…..

            • marty mars 3.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 11:13 am

              very mystical – just like field of dreams, are you shoeless?

              • The lost sheep …
                2 December 2016 at 11:56 am

                Apologies. I’ll try and be more direct.

                There are not enough voters who are further Left than Labour or The Greens to make it worth starting another ‘further Left’ Party.
                And no Party further Left than Labour has any chance at all of becoming the primary Party of Govt. in Aotearoa.

                So the small minority who are of the ‘further left’ persuasion have only 2 realistic options for advancing ‘further left’ aims.
                1. Actively support the ‘furtherest Left’ party that has the capability of being Govt. in the hope of being able to have some influence on their policies.
                2. Start your own Party and look to actively work with the ”furtherest Left’ Party.

                So as there is no Further Left Party 1. is really the only option?

                • marty mars …
                  2 December 2016 at 1:04 pm

                  no apology needed

                  of course you are right – ha ha – and I take your point and I suppose the 2 options you list appear to be the only ones – I just am not sure about that – and I’ll need some time to mull it over.

                  I often think we (western society) spend too much time on solutions rather than considering what exactly the problem is that we want a solution for. So instead of

                  20% problem/80% solutions
                  I’d rather
                  80% considering the problem/20% solutions

                  or even 90/10 to be really smart.

      • WILD KATIPO 3.1.2
        2 December 2016 at 10:38 am

        Well I dont think that Little quite fits the Blairite third way style either ,… and whether we like it or not , Labour still forms the bulk of opposition . We could do a lot worse than Little. I think hes doing OK , still a ways to go … but after 32 years of entrenched neo liberalism ?… every small step taken to rid that party of that cancer is a step in the right direction.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.2.1
          2 December 2016 at 11:21 am

          “We could do a lot worse than Little. I think hes doing OK , still a ways to go … but after 32 years of entrenched neo liberalism ?… every small step taken to rid that party …”

          Again…we’re being told we have to compromise, and tbh, some of us are heartily over being told we have to compromise.

          New Zealand will not survive another three years of Key and Cronies….we won’t. There will still be a country, but it will not be recognisable as the country we lived in 30 years ago.

          Small steps are simply not good enough. There needs to be BIG steps. Loud and sincere apologies for past wrongs committed by Labour and a clear plan on how they will begin the process of restoring New Zealand’s credibility as a first world country.

          Where have Labour been over the past few days when Ros Noonan, Carolyn Henwood, Paul Gibson and those affected by abuse and neglect in State care have been sticking their heads above the ramparts and demanding a proper and independent investigation?

          Jan Logie had a go in the Big House at Anne Tolley…and good on her…but I’ve yet to see a clear and unequivocal statement from either Labour or the Greens about what they would do about this given the chance.

          And, with both The Nation and Sunday reviving the Paid Family Carers issue last weekend…there was a wave of support for these people which should have, could have presented an opportunity for Labour and the Greens to make definite policy statements about how they will address this issue given a chance by voters next year.

          Big Fail.

          Some of us, with experience in both these fields spanning decades, can see no evidence that either Labour or the Greens have truly thought about resolving these two blights on New Zealand’s Human Rights reputation.

          And personally, I’m a bit over politicians using both as a vehicle to garner a little profile boosting media time.

          • BM 3.1.2.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 11:38 am

            New Zealand will not survive another three years of Key and Cronies….we won’t. There will still be a country, but it will not be recognisable as the country we lived in 30 years ago.

            That country stated to die when Britain cut the apron strings, it’s been pretty much dead for the last 20 years.

            Time to realise that and get on with life.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 11:42 am

              Going to have to agree with BM there.

              Now we’re recreating ourselves. Unfortunately, under this government, we’re recreating ourselves as a bunch of selfish, greedy arseholes.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                2 December 2016 at 12:11 pm

                Oh shit oh dear…now I’m going to have to agree with you DTB…to a point.

                Believe it or not, out there, away from the computer screens, are folk that are over this shit…way over it.

                The old guard, who genuinely believed that if you worked hard you’ll be alright, are now seeing that the tax payer funded supports that they were happy to pay their PAYE for are either no longer there, or the process of accessing them is so full of fish hooks that many previously tough buggers are reduced to despair.

                There is a growing sympathy out there for those who were presented by Government of having a “sense of entitlement” when they battled their way through the system to get justice.

                The tipping point has been reached…and tragically, neither of the obvious replacements for this current Mob have been politically savvy enough to ride the wave of anti -National public opinion.

                (and I’ll mix my metaphors if I want too. :-))

            • Herb 3.1.2.1.1.2
              2 December 2016 at 2:54 pm

              Good lord , you need to get out of the house.
              Most New Zealanders are happy with things at the moment.
              Of douse everyone would like more , but realise thats not always realistic.
              the internet has endured people are better informed and the utopias the left is fond of promoting are seen for what they are.
              Look around you BM if you go outside.
              Of every 4 people you see , 3 don’t support the New Labour ideals.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.2
            2 December 2016 at 11:46 am

            Again…we’re being told we have to compromise, and tbh, some of us are heartily over being told we have to compromise.

            Yep, it’s the constant compromising that has led the nation down the hard right-wing path to destruction. Time to stop doing that.

            • WILD KATIPO 3.1.2.1.2.1
              2 December 2016 at 12:16 pm

              We only have to look at the last election to see the colossal division in the Labour party – and the entrenchment of the old guard neo liberals who undermined Cunliffe at every opportunity …

              Statements such as this , – in the middle of a general election campaign , – ” I just want a moa , a small one , small enough I can pat”…

              They preferred to lose than to have Cunliffe as their leader.

              We had the MSM gang up on and misquote regarding the ” sorry for being a man ”.. all the major news outlets eagerly sought out every opportunity to actively discredit Cunliffe ,… and many prominent members of Cunliffes own caucus aided and abetted that process. Contrast that with this speech:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5srcxBinZyI

              So it seems , … that Little has galvanized some sort of commonality , whether by detente or by coercion or by agreement. Or would we rather be back in the position of several years ago during that election campaign? There is room for huge improvement , especially to be fighting fit for the election , and definitely a return to more of Labour’s core principles…

              Heres hoping.

          • WILD KATIPO 3.1.2.1.3
            2 December 2016 at 11:52 am

            The Hill / Tolley interview and the matters concerning that . Well, I tend to agree , we need massive change , and for a start we need strident opposition to neo liberalism ,… but we also need the alternative ( which I believe to be a Keynesian style based economy with a return to true social democracy ) …

            However , much of what was being mentioned in the Hill / Tolley interview occurred across timelines – before and after the 1984 economic and social devolution of this country. It was / is a systemic failure creating conditions for criminal behavior , however ,… with so much of the deregulation regarding neo liberal ideology it lends itself wide open to loopholes and abuse and lack of accountability – hence the continual need for ‘ plausible deniability ‘ , fudging of the facts , someone to ‘take the fall’ , blame shifting and on and on…

            I agree we need change – and fast . But , we have to work with who we have at present . Trends take longer to manifest themselves on these shores… even now… but continuing on with the spinning of lies and favoring policy’s for the rich as this govt does only has a limited shelf life left.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.3.1
              2 December 2016 at 12:55 pm

              which I believe to be a Keynesian style based economy with a return to true social democracy

              That’s actually what those of us who propose a Sovereign Monetary system are saying. The one difference between what was done after WWII and the Sovereign Money system is that the money that the government uses is created rather than borrowed.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                2 December 2016 at 1:24 pm

                Cutting off certain European money lenders and their charging of interest.

                With you on that .

                The Right Honorable Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, Bt, OM, GBE, GBA, wont like you very much for that , Draco…

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 December 2016 at 6:29 am

                Even borrowed money has been created by some bank somewhere. If it’s in our national interest to exercise sovereignty over our currency, does that mean it no longer floats? Does the system you refer to recycle the design of social credit – even partially? Are you advocating we use quantitative easing a la Russel Norman?

                Sorry, so many questions, so little time. But I agree with your implication that the left needs to be clever & radical even if I can’t see this leopard changing its spots swiftly in order to form a new govt – think they’re relying on Nats alienating swing-voters so the left can win by default.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  3 December 2016 at 12:36 pm

                  Even borrowed money has been created by some bank somewhere.

                  That’s the problem. The money borrowed is created ex nihilo and then charged interest on it but the money for the interest hasn’t been created. To pay it off more money has to be created which also interest charged on it.

                  Basically, our present system is an exponential expansion of money created by the private banks that can never be paid off.

                  If it’s in our national interest to exercise sovereignty over our currency, does that mean it no longer floats?

                  No. Although I wouldn’t float it in the same way as now. I’d have the value determined by the trade between two countries. It would not recognise a Reserve Currency.

                  Does the system you refer to recycle the design of social credit – even partially?

                  Couldn’t really say.

                  Are you advocating we use quantitative easing a la Russel Norman?

                  Not really.

          • Amanda Atkinson 3.1.2.1.5
            2 December 2016 at 1:09 pm

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11741682

            “New Zealand has had the biggest prosperity surplus in the world every year for the past decade. This surplus has grown slightly since 2007, indicating that New Zealand is delivering ever higher levels of prosperity with its growing wealth.”

            If the left want to make progress, stop telling us how crap our country is, most Kiwis just don’t believe it, because for most Kiwis, they are doing just fine. The message should be, look, we are doing pretty well, but we can do better, yes most Kiwis are doing great, but yes, many still are not.

            All this doom and gloom Labour and Greens keep banging on about, yes of course it is real for some people, but … not enough people are missing out, by enough, for that doom gloom message to resonate. We are doing far better than most countries in the world, and most Kiwis know that.

            New Zealand wins best country in the world for the fourth year in a row … http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/78884965/New-Zealand-wins-best-country-in-the-world-for-the-fourth-year-in-a-row

            • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.2.1.5.1
              2 December 2016 at 1:25 pm

              Amanda Atkinson, sweetie, if you believe crap like that then you are even more gullible than most.

              Because I’ll bet even National knows that is rubbish…

              • Amanda Atkinson …
                2 December 2016 at 1:53 pm

                Of course Rosemary, you are right, and half the country are wrong. Anyone with a different view to your doom and gloom is simply devoid of the amazing intellect you have, and just does not understand the world as well as you do. You are superior.

                News flash!! … you need the swing voters to vote with you to win. Your vote, because you are an extremeist, is as irrelevant as the Whale Oilers, as least you have 1 thing in common with them.

                So listen, Rosemary, sweetie, you can be as condescneding and patronizing as you want to us swing voters, but the truth is, you need us, to win.

                The question you should be asking is, how do we get the swing voters onto our team so we can change the government?

                I have an idea, if you have the humility to listen to it …

                Maybe you should start by climbing down from your high horse, stop assuming you are superior, and more intelligent, and know swing voters lives better than they do, and that we are being hoodwinked by something only you can see.

                Maybe you do have a superior intellect to me, but … sweetie, at least my vote counts. You, and your vote are irrelvant, because extremests dont win elections, swing voters do.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:08 pm

                  Of course Rosemary, you are right, and half the country are wrong.

                  Reality isn’t a popularity contest. You can have whatever beliefs that you like but when those beliefs are different to reality then your beliefs are delusional.

                  • Amanda Atkinson …
                    2 December 2016 at 4:00 pm

                    Oh right, and unless those beliefs are the same as yours, they are delusional. This intellectual superitority you have is quite extrairdainry. You really do believe you know things about most Kiwis lives, that they don’t know themselves. Interesting. Interesting that the left is failing to connect with most Kiwis. I wonder if telling them, look, you thicko, you are deluded, you really are not happy and doing OK, your life is a misery, you just can’t see it, only I can, because I am intelligent, and you are are deluded. Yip, thats a good way to get swing voters (who are doing well) to vote red.

                    Maybe it is your beliefs about the doom and gloom and mass poverty that is delusional. Maybe most Kiwis are actually doing well, and they are not stupid and delusional, and they know more about their own lives that you do. Just a thought.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:13 pm

                      And then, perhaps, just maybe the people who measure these things (The OECD, the World Bank, the IMF, UNICEF, the Salvation Army, the New Zealand government’s own Treasury department, and Uncle Tom Cobbley) are sounding alarm bells for a reason.

                      Ya think?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:47 pm

                      I’m just looking at the facts. Anything other than those is delusional.

                    • Paul …
                      3 December 2016 at 4:29 pm

                      I find your trolling some of the most abject.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:41 pm

                  OOOOOOOO…. Amanda’s one of those SWING voters,… OK then…

                  Heres one just for you , sweetie ,… oh,… and btw… I think Mr Key might like it too… he reckons hes a bit of a swinger as well… so after swinging to the Right for 32 years,… lets all swing back to the Left. And have a ball.

            • DoublePlusGood 3.1.2.1.5.2
              2 December 2016 at 1:43 pm

              What the hell exactly is a “prosperity surplus”? What a nonsense concept.

              • Amanda Atkinson …
                2 December 2016 at 2:21 pm

                it means we are doing better than most countries, and most Kiwis, espcially swing voters, whom the left need to “swing” to their team, know this. It means a New message required by the left. There is not enough doom and gloom in swing voter land for this message of mass poverty and our country is going to hell in hand cart, to get any cut through.

                • DoublePlusGood …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:40 pm

                  Just think about those words, what they mean, and then think of whether a ‘prosperity surplus’ is a concept that makes any sense at all. Go on, think a bit.

                  • Nessalt …
                    2 December 2016 at 4:02 pm

                    But “going further left” as a concept to win elections is somehow logical. go figure.

                  • ropata …
                    3 December 2016 at 5:50 pm

                    Amanda is happy that she is “doing better than most Kiwis”.
                    Truly spoken from cloud cuckoo land. This is the sort of magical thinking that led to the GFC.

                    Ignore all the evidence to the contrary until one day you wake up and your country is owned by China, your water is full of cowshit, and the fish are all dead

                • mikesh …
                  3 December 2016 at 6:56 am

                  To say that we are doing “better than most” doesn’t mean very much when most other countries don’t seem to be doing very well either. We seem to share with other countries a desease which is generally called “neoliberalism”. The fact that we are coping with disease better than most is not something to be proud of.

            • wellfedweta 3.1.2.1.5.3
              2 December 2016 at 2:00 pm

              And because most kiwi’s agree with those kind of sentiments, the opposition parties are committing political suicide with the hatchet job they are doing on this country.

              • ropata …
                3 December 2016 at 5:52 pm

                You really are a sad case if you think Opposition parties have that sort of power. Your dipshit mates in the bankster party are doing a great job of asset stripping NZ while dorks like you look the other way

                • wellfedweta …
                  4 December 2016 at 4:31 pm

                  “… if you think Opposition parties have that sort of power. ”

                  Oh I didn’t say or even imply that. I’m talking about the relentless attack from Little etc on life in NZ. It is so out of touch with the average NZ’er, hence their polling.

            • Siobhan 3.1.2.1.5.4
              2 December 2016 at 2:13 pm

              Could the people in possession of a ‘Prosperity Surplus’ please share it with these folk…http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/78945273/Cantabrians-wait-in-crippling-pain-for-elective-surgery

              or is there some reason not to???

              • Amanda Atkinson …
                2 December 2016 at 2:28 pm

                the point is, we are doing better than most countries, where would you rather be given that it is obviously so horrible to live in this poverty striken land we call NZ?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:06 pm

                  No, the rich are doing better. The poor are doing far worse – but that’s always been true under a National government.

                • Siobhan …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:09 pm

                  I would like to live in New Zealand that takes care of its citizens. I see no reason to not provide hard working NZers with simple operations that will make them contributing members of society.

                  Is there some particular reason that you think it is reasonable to deny people the basics one would expect in a modern educated country, especially when we have a ‘surplus of prosperity’??

                  The point is we are in NZ. A small country, but a real gem, with a comparatively manageable population, politically, economically and climatically stable. No wars, no territorial threats.

                  So why are we regressing in our treatment of so many people??

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    2 December 2016 at 3:26 pm

                    “Is there some particular reason that you think it is reasonable to deny people the basics one would expect in a modern educated country, especially when we have a ‘surplus of prosperity’??”

                    I think you may have smote that troll, Siobahn!

                    • Amanda Atkinson …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:07 pm

                      Anyone disagrees with Rosemary is either a troll or gullible.

                      At least our (swing voters) votes count.

                      I asked the whale oilers how it feels to be impotent and irrelvant because their vote doesn’t matter, got banned.

                      You need us swing voters Rosemary if you want to win next year.

                      Try crafting a message that will bring us back to red. You are failing at the moment.

                    • Rae …
                      2 December 2016 at 5:22 pm

                      Amanda, I will try. Home ownership declining, homelessness increasing. I will admit right now that I count people who are forced to rent when they would rather buy but cannot hope to, as homeless, but I accept not everyone does.
                      You might want to consider what it is that is making us look like we are prospering. It is rampant immigration, nothing else, remove that and we are doing pretty ordinary. Dairying is big, too big and making a bloody mess of the country, tourism is possibly the only real bright light we have.
                      It is false growth you are seeing because the way we do it, there is no fullstop to it. There is no magic number, population-wise that will leave us able to prosper without more and more of it.
                      We have record sales of land and houses to foreigners, I reckon we and you would be horrified if we ever knew the truth. Look at just two things a huge housing development in Orewa and another in Manukau, thousands of “houses” built on land owned by Chinese to be done by Chinese. Firstly, I wonder how long that land has been land banked and out of reach for NZers, and secondly I wonder what sort of quality will be going into them, using as an example, for starters, cheap, low grade steel.
                      Building houses, running our own farms are all part and parcel of a continuing economy, not having some foreign corporation coming in doing it. This on the surface looks good, but I say it is not, NZers will be denied just about any contribution, many of the houses will be owned and rented by foreigners, many tenants will require accommodation top ups, welfare for landlords, even foreign. National is refusing to do anything about this.
                      There is an article today about unprecedented interest from overseas in our land. Go to the Hougarden site and do a bit of your own exploring, if it does not concern you what is happening then I do not know what will.
                      Pike River, this is just about enough on its own for me to swear to never, ever vote for National. I believe strongly everything after those explosions was directed from govt, from Solid Energy buying it in the first place, till now, outright refusing to look at maybe getting some evidence at the very, very least about what happened in that mine. I have a very, very nasty taste in my mouth over that.
                      Please think about what you vote for when you vote for who you vote for

                    • the pigman …
                      2 December 2016 at 7:04 pm

                      “I asked the whale oilers how it feels to be impotent and irrelvant because their vote doesn’t matter, got banned.

                      So that’s why you’re back to concern troll the left. Thanks for clearing that up.

              • Chris …
                2 December 2016 at 2:29 pm

                The rich stockpile their prosperity surplus so they can use it later to convert the poor’s luck surplus into more prosperity surplus.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.5.5
              2 December 2016 at 3:05 pm

              because for most Kiwis, they are doing just fine.

              That’s actually the lie. The majority of Kiwis are going backwards and have been for quite some time. It’s the reality that’s pretty much in the fact that the share of national income going to workers has dropped from ~65% in the 1980s to ~45% today. And a fairly large amount of that drop has been over the last few years with National in charge.

              • wellfedweta …
                2 December 2016 at 3:21 pm

                There are two flaws in what you claim.

                1. Income inequality is not a measure of how well people are doing, it is a measure of how well people are doing relative to other people. In a growing economy, people can all be doing well, but there be inequality of distribution of that well being.

                2. NZ’s income inequality has barely changed since 1994 (http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/snapshots-of-nz/nz-social-indicators/Home/Standard%20of%20living/income-inequality.aspx).

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:34 pm

                  1. Inequality is proof that society is breaking down
                  2. So? It was bad then and it’s still bad isn’t a good enough argument not to address it.

                  • wellfedweta …
                    2 December 2016 at 3:46 pm

                    1. No, it isn’t. Inequality has existed in every society in the history of humanity. There is no system that eliminates it.
                    2. You’re veering off course. I’m challenging your claim that “The majority of Kiwis are going backwards and have been for quite some time.”, and then you’re use of irrelevant data to try to support that assertion.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      2 December 2016 at 3:56 pm

                      1. And every society has collapsed because of it.
                      2. No I’m not. Inequality is bad and the policies of the last few decades have made inequality worse.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:01 pm

                      “1. And every society has collapsed because of it.”
                      Not so. Societies rarely ‘collapse’. Economies collapse, but mainly because they embrace socialism.

                      “2. No I’m not. Inequality is bad and the policies of the last few decades have made inequality worse.”
                      Your assertion is just that, an assertion. You haven’t actually supported it with anything other than your opinion. I suggest inequality could be good. For example of inequality results in the betterment of the greater number within society, how is that bad?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:05 pm

                      Wellfedweta, you will struggle to gain traction on this topic. Just the other week we had Wayne Mapp here telling us how the rise in the GINI was deliberate government policy.

                      Given that he was a member of said government, I’m happy to take his word for it.

                    • KJT []
                      3 December 2016 at 1:16 pm

                      Apparently because him and his cohorts believed that what does were being paid to much, and his fellow spivs,con men, speculators and real estate agents weren’t getting enough.

                    • KJT []
                      3 December 2016 at 1:18 pm

                      Apparently because he and his cohorts believed that wharfies and workers were being paid to much, and his fellow spivs,con men, financial fraud’s, speculators and real estate agents weren’t.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:49 pm

                      Huh?…. Wellfedweta must be one of them there swing voter types as well….

                      ‘ Economies collapse, but mainly because they embrace socialism.’

                      Well,… my history teacher got it wrong . It was those damn socialists collapsed Rome all along .

                      And those dirty rotten socialists must have been the cause of the global credit crunch as well ,… weve been told a lie – so it wasn’t the Wall Street cowboys, it wasn’t them big Lehmans Merrill and Fanny banks that did it with their rapacious rotten debt Hedge funding ways …

                      It was them damn bloody socialists !!!

                      Wheres my pitchfork , Ethel ?… Ima gonna find me a socialist and give him a piece of my mind !!!

                      And on the way Im gonna kneel for a minutes silence at Ronnie Reagans grave and send him my apologies for thinkin it was all that fangled neo liberal something he was always on about that caused all the ruckus….

                    • Rae …
                      2 December 2016 at 5:25 pm

                      It is not inequality per se, but it is the amount of it. We have vast inequalities now.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      2 December 2016 at 6:24 pm

                      “Wellfedweta, you will struggle to gain traction on this topic.”

                      I’m really only interested in data. The data shows income inequality has barely changed since 1992.

                    • KJT []
                      3 December 2016 at 1:20 pm

                      And the cost of living has increased at twice the rate for those on lower incomes since.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      2 December 2016 at 6:27 pm

                      “And those dirty rotten socialists must have been the cause of the global credit crunch as wel”

                      Mixed market, free market or capitalist policies have not collapsed economies. Socialism collapsed the Russian economy, the Greek economy, and it is crashing the Venezuelan economy.

                      ‘Well,… my history teacher got it wrong . It was those damn socialists collapsed Rome all along .”

                      You’re confusing societies with economies. There are multiple reasons the Roman empire collapsed.

                    • ropata …
                      3 December 2016 at 12:55 pm

                      wellfedweta, blaming “socialism” for the breakup of the CCCP and the Greek crisis and Venezuela is mindless simplistic bullshit. Just as in Rome there were multiple complex factors at play but one thing is certain: inequality and capitalist greed fuck up society.

                      “Too large a proportion of recent “mathematical” economics are mere concoctions, as imprecise as the initial assumptions they rest on, which allow the author to lose sight of the complexities and interdependencies of the real world in a maze of pretentious and unhelpful symbols.”
                      John Maynard Keynes

                      The NZ economy might seem to be doing well, but the people are not.
                      http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/social-issues/a-year-of-living-shamefully-new-zealands-dirty-secrets/#

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:42 pm

                      Mixed market, free market or capitalist policies have not collapsed economies.

                      Capitalism has always destroyed societies. Same as it’s destroying our society now. This is what history tells us – if we’re willing to listen. It’s why every single major religion in the world bans usury and capitalism is usury writ large.

                      Think about it: It’s the capitalists that are preventing us from doing the right thing to address anthropogenic climate change and thus driving us to an Extinction Level Event – probably one that’s likely to compare to the Permian Extinction.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:49 pm

                      “And the cost of living has increased at twice the rate for those on lower incomes since.”

                      The cost of living is the cost of living. The rate applies equally to everyone, unless butchers in your area have suddenly started charging more for sausages sold to the poor.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:53 pm

                      Disingenuous cherry-picker cherry-picks 1994, rather than 1984, when the vandalism started, and ignores Mapp’s eye-witness testimony.

                      No wonder they say you’ve an engorged amygdala if this is what you call honest argument.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:59 pm

                      “blaming “socialism” for the breakup of the CCCP and the Greek crisis and Venezuela is mindless simplistic bullshit.”

                      No. Their economies collapsed (or are collapsing), and their economies were socialist. You’re surely not unable to make 2+2=4.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:04 pm

                      ” Same as it’s destroying our society now.”

                      Draco capitalism is not ‘destroying’ our society. Nothing is. Our economy is remarkably strong, and our society is free.

                • mauī …
                  2 December 2016 at 4:14 pm

                  British economist Ann Pettifor recently said:

                  “But what’s interesting about New Zealand is that inequality rose in this country more than in any other developed country in the world between 1980 and the 2000s – that’s extraordinary.”

                  http://www.newshub.co.nz/business/nz-economy-hugely-imbalanced-as-gdp-grows-36pct-2016091511

                  Doesn’t really line up with what you’re saying.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    2 December 2016 at 4:18 pm

                    Economists are just like academics, and I can show you one who’ll give you a counterview.

                    Luckily, we also have multiple corroborating sources 🙂

                  • wellfedweta …
                    2 December 2016 at 6:35 pm

                    Ann Pettifor is a member of the British Labour Parties economic advisory committee. And she isn’t supporting her contentions with actual data. I did.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:46 pm

                      You haven’t supported anything you’ve said and what you have said has been thoroughly refuted by reality.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 1:53 pm

                      ” and what you have said has been thoroughly refuted by reality.”

                      You mean the income inequality data set I posted?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:01 pm

                      Pick 1984 as a start date and you get a completely different story. As noted by the IMF, World Bank, UNICEF, the Sallies, etc. etc. Everyone other than right wingers with their amygdala handicap.

                      Your argument is the equivalent of saying that since there have been no mining disasters in NZ since 20th November 2010, there have been no mining disasters. It’s transparent and makes you look like a fool, or a liar.

                      Which is it?

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:07 pm

                      “Pick 1984 as a start date and you get a completely different story.”

                      For what?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:11 pm

                      Can you really not follow the context of these comments? Nah, it’s yet another dishonest rhetorical trick that you think is clever, whereas everyone else has seen it so many times already you must be a plagiarist as well as a fool.

                      Pick 1984 if you want to get a clue about the effects and progress of neo-liberalism and inequality in the New Zealand on Earth, as opposed to the one you made up.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  3 December 2016 at 7:24 am

                  @ Wellfedweta…

                  And as per usual , standard fare for the Commophobic neo liberal…

                  YOU ,… are continually demonstrating your complete extremism and glaring lack of knowledge and discernment between the difference between Socialism and Communism.

                  They are completely different.

                  And as usual as well, – such cheerleaders for the neo liberal hard right such as yourself love to quote Russia , a COMMUNIST country … and conveniently forget just WHY it collapsed… ignoring trade embargoes and sanctions brought about by your hero Ronnie Reagan and such like eg : Thatcher… and turning a blind eye to the most obvious success storys of SOCIALISM such as the Scandinavian states… your real motives become quite clear. And that is you dislike those states success because THEY have not only the highest living standards in the world – they also maintain that standard by PAYING HIGH TAXES.

                  And so now we see the real unveiling of your deliberate clumping together of COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM.

                  Right wing neo liberals like yourself like to play this little game all the time – so much so that it has become a tired , boring old ruse that sucks in nobody. Yet you dont realize we know what game your playing.

                  No ones fooled by your little ploys, everybody sees you as an extremist who doesn’t even believe in their own bullshit and EVERYONE sees it for what it is and what the underlying motives are.

                  And that is GREED.

                  I find it also mildy amusing that FDR brought in the New Deal – based on Keynesian economics ( another thing you neo liberals hate with a rabid vengeance ) and it was THAT that pulled the USA out of the Great Depression – not your Austrian School of Economics from Hyek and its Lassez faire bullshit. Nor was neo liberalism even heard of – that came about because of think tanks such as the Mont Pelerin society… which was simply a regurgitation of the original Lassez Faire model. And like that , only has a limited shelf life and absolutely NO sustainability .

                  The laughable thing really is that you think people are actually taken in by your deliberate distortion of your assumed lack of understanding between the differences between COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM. The laughable thing is that you truly , honestly believe people are that stupid to fall for the act anymore – particularly in light of BREXIT and Trump… do you really think we have all been living in a toilet for the last 30 years?

                  Honestly , mate ,.. give it a rest and give us all a break.

                  Please.

                  • wellfedweta …
                    3 December 2016 at 1:52 pm

                    Extreme? That is humorous. Asserting socialism collapsed the USSR is not extreme, it is common knowledge.

                    Communism and socialism are different animals, but very much of the same species. Both have wrecked economies, and both have been soundly rejected.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:09 pm

                      How’s the neoliberal paradise of Somalia going? You see how your stupid shit argument works?

                      Here’s your opinion written in mathematical notation:

                      0.1 + 0.1 = 4

                    • Matthew Whitehead …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:19 pm

                      Except command economies and authoritarianism collapsed the USSR, neither of which is necessary to socialism.

                      This would be like if I tried to make an argument correlating gay rights with economic success- I’m sure there would probably be a bit of correlation, but it’s not a bloody causal relationship.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      3 December 2016 at 2:24 pm

                      It was the fact that Greece’s means of production were in the hands of the working class that crashed their economy. Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac and Lehman Brothers were workers’ collectives.

                      Meanwhile, on Earth, social democracies contain both socialist and capitalist elements and are the most successful economies.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 3:45 pm

                      “How’s the neoliberal paradise of Somalia going? You see how your stupid shit argument works?”

                      Hasn’t started. The economy of Somalia is more like an anarchy than anything resembling traditional definitions.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 3:47 pm

                      “Except command economies and authoritarianism collapsed the USSR, neither of which is necessary to socialism.”

                      A command economy is an integral part of a communist system, and plays at least a significant role in socialist systems. Authoritarianism is commonplace in Russia’s history. It most certainly didn’t collapse the USSR economy.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      3 December 2016 at 3:53 pm

                      “It was the fact that Greece’s means of production were in the hands of the working class that crashed their economy.”

                      Not entirely. There was also the corruption, the laziness, the overly generous welfare system….

                      At the end of the day Greece failed because socialist economic policy promoted mediocrity. If you want to learn more, read up on the OSE railway.

                    • ropata …
                      3 December 2016 at 4:29 pm

                      So nothing to do with a widespread culture of tax evasion and stupidly easy credit from the IMF then… what are you, a McCarthyite throwback from the 1950’s?

                    • wellfedweta …
                      4 December 2016 at 4:29 pm

                      “nothing to do with a widespread culture of tax evasion and stupidly easy credit from the IMF then… ”

                      Oh yes, but tax evasion in particular is common on socialist economies.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 December 2016 at 5:22 pm

                      …and tax havens.

              • s y d …
                2 December 2016 at 4:45 pm

                ‘for most kiwis, they are doing just fine’…..a perceived truth for 51% of people who bother to vote. They feel like they are doing just fine..kinda like…..wages might be a bit flat, but bugger me, my house has gone up truckloads mate. Creaming it. Bang a bit on the mortgage, do up the kitchen, take the family to Fiji/Vietnam/GC. Sweet mate. Gotta have some aspirations and a bit of desire.

                As long as the National Party can keep 51% of voters ‘feeling’ like they are doing just fine, then Amanda Atkinson is 100% correct. There is no depression in their NZ, there are no faeces in their streams.

                We can all keep perfectly calm.

            • HDCAFriendlyTroll 3.1.2.1.5.6
              2 December 2016 at 5:14 pm

              “All this doom and gloom Labour and Greens keep banging on about, yes of course it is real for some people, but … not enough people are missing out, by enough, for that doom gloom message to resonate. We are doing far better than most countries in the world, and most Kiwis know that.”

              But when there is enough people missing out then Labour will romp in. You just see. It may take five, ten, twenty or even more years but Labour is willing to wait.

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 December 2016 at 6:43 am

                Exactly. Why should the left go to all the trouble of presenting the electorate with a credible positive alternative? Being lazy and just waiting for the Nats to alienate enough swing-voters is a much more attractive option. Doesn’t matter how long it takes, so let Key have his 4th term as PM and go down in history as the greatest political leader in our country since Holyoake. Brilliant political strategy for leftists.

                • ropata …
                  3 December 2016 at 12:59 pm

                  Argument from ignorance? The Opposition parties have made loads of policy announcements. Maybe you should get that selective deafness/blindness problem checked out.

                  The Gnats have a huge PR machine and a compliant MSM and a large pack of talkback drongoes that agree with every random fart emitted from the PM’s office

      • Sabine 3.1.3
        2 December 2016 at 11:32 am

        and that will show all the others. Like it did in the US.

        vote for the party furthest to the left, vote for legalize aotearoa, ban 1080 or the socialists, vote for anything, but don’t vote for nothing, and above all if someone votes for nothing then someone should not complain.

        maybe the issue world wide we have is not young people not voting, its old people telling them that there is nothing to vote for cause insert any reason from the past that mean nothing to young people or anyone else who can’t remember the past or was not there.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.3.1
          2 December 2016 at 11:56 am

          Kinda expected a response like that…

          You know, I liken Labour to an abusive parent.

          It was always expected that Labour would put the common person to the fore…care and protect them from the nasty capitalist overlords…go out to bat for the working on non working person knowing that in most cases their precarious existence was of no fault of their own.

          Then, this Labour ‘parent’ turned on its children….drunk on the neoliberalism that swept the so called developed world …they practised this new ideology on the most vulnerable.

          Beat us repeatedly until we had nowhere to turn.

          Labour cleared the trees and paved the way for this current bunch of sociopaths.

          Failing in the polls?

          That’s because Labour killed the trust of their original voter base.

          “…its old people telling them that there is nothing to vote for cause insert any reason from the past…”

          Really Sabine? Really?

          You saying that I should just move on and get over it? Let it go???

          When leaders in the human rights and legal communities are demanding that this shit gets fixed?

          And we are STILL waiting for a policy statement from the ‘Parties That Are Our Only Hope’ in response to these demands.

          Really???

          • KJT 3.1.3.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 1:00 pm

            I am afraid you will have to look at the Labour/Greens actual policies, because the MSM will not tell you anything positive about them.

            • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.3.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 1:22 pm

              “I am afraid you will have to look at the Labour/Greens actual policies,”

              Link, please.

              ” because the MSM will not tell you anything positive about them.”

              Okay…disclosure time…I don’t watch telly. Or listen to commercial radio.

              I don’t do faceache or twotter, and I will scan stuff and the herald if I have the time…and I do make the time to check out the regional papers as they often print articles that the Majors bypass.

              So…to get my attention, Labour/Green will have to get on Natrad…or make sure that their websites allow ready navigation to actual hard core policy….not a string of happy clappy or angry ranty press releases or blogs.

              Admittedly I’m a hard nut to crack trustwise…but I do hear many I associate with saying exactly the same thing…that we can’t trust ANY party to cut past the rhetoric and keep their pre-election promises.

              And hey…this may actually develop into a constructive discussion about how to get National out and the left in….

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  2 December 2016 at 3:10 pm

                  Thank you…

                  Greens’ looking good once you get past the glitzy front page…and a whole lot of actual text for me to get my teeth into!

                  I am seeing some real thought gone into the Greens policy work across more than just a few high profile areas. i am encouraged by their Human Rights policies.

                  Labour…that’s what I read last night…but I want more, please. Labour isn’t going to capture the hearts and minds with lots of positive words about a few high profile issues.

                  • garibaldi …
                    2 December 2016 at 4:40 pm

                    Good on you Rosemary. I’ve just got home from work and have cheered you all the way in today’s comments.
                    As for Amanda, I wonder if she has heard of Climate Change and whether she has worked out that we have to have a cooperative society instead of full on Capitalism. It appears she is happy with full on Capitalism and to hell with the results.

                  • Carolyn_nth …
                    2 December 2016 at 8:43 pm

                    Did you go to the Labour policy page?

                    http://www.labour.org.nz/announced_policies

                    Linking to this does not mean I endorse Labour

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      2 December 2016 at 9:08 pm

                      Yes! And, like Oliver, I want more…

                      Very good the Future of Work work….and I understand how important that work is, but Labour needs to (for my vote, anyway)
                      😉 show that it has really and truly discarded the rampant neoliberalism that has cost it the trust of many on the left.

                      Perhaps, after the charming guffawing is over, Little may want to reflect a bit on why, when so many are suffering under this regime, folk are not flocking to the safety of Labour.

          • Sabine 3.1.3.1.2
            2 December 2016 at 8:36 pm

            i believe in voting. You could say that being raised in an environement where the oldest lady living has seen two world wars and the oldest living bloke was 25 years of age (all the others died in some ditches in said two wars) made whom i am.

            in my live time i have voted for several different parties, in several different countries due to residence permits, eu citizens and such.

            as such i have voted, not because i may personally profit from my vote, and as a single female of a certain age without children i don’t get any of the tax rebates or discounts offered to married families with children, but i vote generally speaking for the society at large.

            i had the privelege to vote for the left parties of germany and france, for the eu parliament. i had the privilege to vote for left parties in NZ….note parties. I have voted for both the Greens and the Labour Party and i have also voted for Legalize Aotearoa when my vote mattered the least.

            I don’t vote for myself, i vote for our society. If our society does well so do we individually. Now i am trying to understand an upset of those that are older then me in regards to the sell out of the 80’s, but i can’t really relate. I came of age in the 80’s and don’t know the ‘good old times’, and to an end even question if they were the good old times for all.

            So what do you suggest, that we all stay at home and wait for the messiah, that all of us could possibly agree on? do you realise that that is never going to happen, that this is as impossible a feat as having an immaculate birth?

            In NZ if we want to change the government there are a few options.
            labour/green
            Labour/green/nzfirst
            nzfirst/green/mana/maori and any other variety of mix that you could come up with.

            You don’t like Labour, vote for the Greens, vote for Mana, vote for ban 1080. Vote for humpty dumpty, but don’t don’t vote. That is all i say, and please tell me again how that is wrong.

    • Peter 3.2
      2 December 2016 at 2:54 pm

      I read this on Independent Working Class Association and thought this sounds just like here.

      What this demonstrates is that the BNP’s success, and indeed that of UKIP, has very little to do with the innate charm of these parties and is more symptomatic of working class disillusionment with the political centre, Labour specifically. From 1997 onwards, directly coincident with the emergence of New Labour, electoral turn-out has fallen well below its post-war trend of around 75%, with 65% now seemingly established as the new norm (link). As the progenitors of the IWCA wrote in 1995: ‘In straight­forward language, it is the politics of the Labour Party that has created the BNP… Labour and the Left are increasingly alien to working class people’ (link). The Oxford academics Geoffrey Evans and Jon Mellon wrote just before the 2015 election that ‘Labour’s move to the ‘liberal consensus’ on the EU and immigration alienated many of their core voters a long time before UKIP were an effective political presence. These disaffected core voters left Labour in 1997, 2001, 2005 and 2010 and went to other parties—or simply stopped voting.
      As for Labour, Cruddas says that its current plight ‘could be the greatest crisis the Labour party has faced since it was created. It is epic in its scale’. Post-New Labour, what is the Labour party for? If it cannot retain working class support in its heartlands, if it is no longer seen as the party of the class by a significant and growing section of the working class, what is its reason to exist? Can this ever be resolved? Having lost Scotland, and facing constituency boundary changes that will likely work against them, will it ever be able to form a national government on its own again? Labour, like the Lib Dems, are finding out the hard way that there is no need for three neo-liberal parties, or even two; and that gaining votes in Guardianland doesn’t compensate for the loss of the core it took for granted.

  4. save nz 4
    2 December 2016 at 10:04 am

    Little is doing a great job. He’s organised the MoU with Greens, he’s collaborated with others to take Northland off Natz, He’s taken Labour away from supporting TPPA, he’s getting rid of dead wood and neoliberals out of the Labour party and seems to have unified the party.

    Also he is the opposite of Key and comes across as honest and trustworthy and seems genuinely interested in the wellbeing of Kiwis, getting rid of corruption and not just asset stripping and enriching himself and his backers like Key.

    • chris73 4.1
      2 December 2016 at 10:28 am

      “Little is doing a great job”

      I think hes doing a great job in helping National win the next election

      “He’s organised the MoU with Greens”

      Yeah thats going really well

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/opinion/opinion-labour-hypocrisy-over-mount-roskill-dirty-deal-2016083011
      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/bugger-labour-members-leave-party-over-proposed-deal-green-in-nelson

      “he’s collaborated with others to take Northland off Natz”

      So basically given up the rural vote and gifted a seat to Winston who could go either way all at the same time

      “He’s taken Labour away from supporting TPPA”

      Well who knows

      https://itsourfuture.org.nz/andrew-little-labour-party-welcome-renegotiation-tppa/
      https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/nz-politics-daily-labour%E2%80%99s-tpp-disaster

      This puts it best: https://imperatorfish.com/2015/10/15/a-statement-by-andrew-little-on-the-tpp/

      • save nz 4.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 11:11 am

        @Chris73 – John Key – lets know what great things you think he has done?

        • chris73 4.1.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 11:17 am

          Won the 2008, 11, 14 and is looking on track for an unprecedented fourth election win

          • Jeremy 4.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 11:35 am

            Can you think of any great things he has done which has benefitted New Zealand society?

            • BM 4.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 11:50 am

              Rons, ufb, growth and development.

              Most places around NZ are fizzing, you can thank Key and National for that.

              • KJT …
                2 December 2016 at 12:33 pm

                No. You can thank Cullen and Clark.

                Even though they couldn’t shift from the fashionable Neo-liberal paradigm, they resisted Nationals pressure for tax cuts, austerity and more asset sales.

                Imagine if we had 9 years of Nationals vandalism before the GFC?

              • WILD KATIPO …
                2 December 2016 at 12:35 pm

                Fizzing?

                Erm…. is THAT why Winston Peters took the traditional National party seat of Northland off National?

                Or was it because of the incompetence of Dildo Joyce as campaign manager ? Why did it take Key himself to join in ?… certainly seems things aint right down on the farm anymore for National…

                Maybe those tax cuts for the rich with all that weekly borrowing over the last 7- 8 years is catching up with not only our social services but the regions as well.. never mind , eh ?… we can just import in a few hundred thousand more for cheap labour then , cant we… eh…

              • Cemetery Jones …
                2 December 2016 at 12:43 pm

                I realise JK has spent 9 years laying cables all over NZ, but I don’t know what UFB has to do with it…

              • save nz …
                2 December 2016 at 12:59 pm

                @BM – Rons – 3/4 of Road of National Significance don’t meet standard measure for return on investment.

                In addition Auckland is heaving under the congestion that National has produced while not investing in affordable and reliable public transport – in particular rail which is necessary with all the ad hoc outskirts developments going on and little to zero public transport in place.

                ufb – has been mostly successful but should have been implemented earlier and was a lost opportunity to train young Kiwis instead of importing in cheap migrant workers.

                Also if Cunliffe had not split Corus and Telecom we would still all be on dial up for a billion dollars. So I would give labour more credit on that one.

                growth and development – pretty patchy – if you take off the earthquake then we have virtually zero growth in this country. Productivity is dire.

                Huge government debt in spite of selling off NZ assets.

                Disgusting outcomes like Pike River, Havelock North and CTV building – nobody held to account.

                While the average Joe is being inundated with regulations and surveillance the government is removing regulation and transparency from big business and government.

                Once property falls, kiwis are going to be feeling the pinch especially with interest rates on the rise.

              • Anno1701 …
                2 December 2016 at 3:16 pm

                “Most places around NZ are fizzing,”

                like a tyre deflating while sitting in a puddle….

              • gnomic …
                3 December 2016 at 1:06 am

                Definitely a contender for world-class idiocy. Or perhaps hypocrisy? You can’t possibly believe the rubbish you spout. Unless you are in fact stupid beyond belief.

                No chance you could just go away and stop polluting any attempts at serious discourse here?

          • save nz 4.1.1.1.2
            2 December 2016 at 11:37 am

            Ok so nothing to point out then.

            Just winning, using dirty politics, immigration and MSM. Great reason to vote for someone!! sarc.

            • chris73 4.1.1.1.2.1
              2 December 2016 at 11:48 am

              Its not a bad achievement if you’re wanting to run the country and majority of voters seem to agree

              • BM …
                2 December 2016 at 11:52 am

                No, you haven’t achieved anything unless it’s some grandiose scheme paid for by the ever suffering tax payer.

                • chris73 …
                  2 December 2016 at 12:00 pm

                  I could have mentioned the economy, the unemployment rate and that we seem to be in the top ten for everything positive as well but it seemed like over kill

                  • KJT …
                    2 December 2016 at 12:40 pm

                    Increase in poverty and inequality.
                    Negative balance of trade.
                    Borrowing for tax cuts for the wealthy.
                    Rorts in every direction.
                    Over half of workers in precarious low paid work.
                    One hour a week considered full time work, to hide real unemployment.
                    Real incomes dropping for most.
                    Beggars on the streets.
                    Lowest primary school achievement ratings in years.

                    I could go on for pages.

                    Neo-liberal achievements?

                    • chris73 …
                      2 December 2016 at 1:15 pm

                      Well I guess you must be right which explains why Nationals in the mid 20s and Labours in the high 40s

                      Is Andrew Little going to release his internal polls or does he accept the current polls are correct?

                    • mary_a …
                      2 December 2016 at 1:20 pm

                      @ KJT … enough fodder there to fuel a revolt.

                    • KJT …
                      2 December 2016 at 1:31 pm

                      Heard of MMP. Chris.

                      The leftish! bloc gets more votes than National.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      2 December 2016 at 2:58 pm

                      Hi KJT

                      Your post shows precisely why you will not understand the popularity of current policy, because there is more fiction than fact in what you claim.

                    • wellfedweta …
                      2 December 2016 at 3:03 pm

                      “The leftish! bloc gets more votes than National.”

                      Seriously?

                      Roy Morgan Nov 30
                      National 49.5%
                      Lab/Greens 37.5%

                      Colmar Brunton 23 November
                      National 50.0%
                      Lab/Greens 39.0%

                    • Matthew Whitehead …
                      3 December 2016 at 11:41 am

                      Weta: Until the recent RM and CB came out, averaging polls (the best method to actually get any information out of them) had New Zealand First deciding the government for all of 2016. The two most recent polls have finally got National back, assuming no systemic error in the polls, in the position it’s currently in- just barely able to pass legislation with ACT and UF.

                      Basically, National is gaining no political ground compared to 2014 yet, it’s just Labour failing to capitalise on their weakness and losing back a bit of the ground they’d gained to National post-quakes, the Greens staying about as strong as they normally do, and NZF losing a little ground to National with conservative centrists compared to earlier polling. We’ll need another month or two to see if this is a temporary bump to National or whether they’ve semi-permanently gained ground, as the trend was headed away from them and towards Labour and the Greens up until the November RM poll.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    2 December 2016 at 12:42 pm

                    Or you could have mentioned 300,000 children in poverty , 40,000 homeless, and dozens of family’s sleeping in cars , wages that belong back in the 1980’s and rents that are over half a wage… and a housing bubble that precludes first home buyers who happen to have actually been born in New Zealand.

                    Yup. Key looks after his own. As for the new Zealand public,.. they can all get stuffed , eh?

                    • chris73 …
                      2 December 2016 at 1:16 pm

                      Naah I’ll leave the fairy tales to you

                    • Nessalt …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:10 pm

                      300k children in poverty? where are the armies of beggars? that’s close to 8% of the total population just in one age bracket. Honestly, don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

                      40,000 homeless? i know where you got the figure from, according to their calculations, i’m homeless. And i’m certainly not. I choose an economically rational form of living which carries with it a level of uncertainty higher than owning my own home, but far less financial burden.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      2 December 2016 at 4:21 pm

                      Apropos of nothing, I note the recent spate of local councils passing bylaws against street beggars.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  2 December 2016 at 12:39 pm

                  Awww… Pshaw, … BM,… dont worry , Keys got it all sussed… he’s looking after the rich with his tax haven ,… he doesn’t think its one, but the U N seems to think otherwise… funnily…

                  You’ll be OK mate.

                • KJT …
                  2 December 2016 at 12:52 pm

                  Sky city.
                  SCF bailout.
                  Convention centres for Christchurch.
                  Hotel in the Pacific.
                  Roads of significance to mainfreight. (Wonder who donates to National)
                  Charter schools.
                  No pay. Sorry, novapay.
                  Solid energy.
                  Flag referendum.
                  Parliamentary cars.

                  “Grandiose schemes, paid for by the long suffering tax payer.

              • KJT …
                2 December 2016 at 4:46 pm

                The majority of voters voted for leftish parties.
                If you count the Maori party as well. And, of course the wasted votes for Mana etc. Labours doing.
                Who will be punished next election for supporting National.

                So. “The majority of voters”, do not like National!

          • Psycho Milt 4.1.1.1.3
            2 December 2016 at 12:01 pm

            Hilarious:

            save nz: @Chris73 – John Key – lets know what great things you think he has done?

            chris73: Won the 2008, 11, 14 and is looking on track for an unprecedented fourth election win

            No doubt those were great for him, yes. The question was about what he’s done for the people he’s ruling. It’s funny how right-wingers have a blind spot in which things that are good for them personally are conflated with being good per se.

          • DS 4.1.1.1.4
            2 December 2016 at 3:54 pm

            How is it unprecedented? New Zealand has had one eight-term government, a five term government, and two four term governments.

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.1.2
          2 December 2016 at 11:23 am

          “John Key – lets know what great things you think he has done?”

          Most of us know the answer to that question…what those of us who are truly desperate for some relief from this tyranny need to know is what Labour and the Greens intend to do.

          • save nz 4.1.1.2.1
            2 December 2016 at 11:44 am

            At this point Labour and Greens can’t be worse – so I think to get relief from Natz tyranny and before the entire country is sold off, people need to campaign to get all their friends to vote Natz out next election and keep the focus on National’s bad performance.

    • WILD KATIPO 4.2
      2 December 2016 at 10:30 am

      And he doesn’t commit common assault by pulling ponytails , – or use a couple of bottles of wine as bribes to try to hush things up either… and I can hardly see him changing NZ labour laws to facilitate Hollywood , …and I dont think he’d lie about XKEYscore public surveillance programs or set up permanent residents to be extradited using his lackeys and then deny he knew anything about it… nor seal off the evidence of a coal mine that killed off 29 men because it made him look bad…

      I also reckon Little s quite COMFORTABLE with our current flag and isnt that comfortable with 40,000 homeless, and another 300,000 children living in poverty … ditto for having dozens of familys having to live in cars because their wages are so bad they cannot afford the exorbitant housing bubble market rent…

      And I can hardly see Little bragging of a ‘ brighter future’ with a clandestine trade deal that would have wiped away our national sovereignty… nor enabling what are in anyones language an offshore tax haven for the rich…

      Soooooo, …. all in all ?

      At the END OF THE DAY ?

      If Littles going left?… Im sure most New Zealanders are quite COMFORTABLE with that.

      Especially when viewed in light of the other corrupt alternative.

    • james 4.3
      2 December 2016 at 1:24 pm

      “Little is doing a great job”

      Yep – he’s taken Labour to near record lows in the polls.

      The MOU is doing damage to Labour, and He hasnt said for certain that they wont go with the TTPA – not that it looks like that is going to be a decision he will need to make.

      The dead wood – includes members and organisers who worked for labour for 30 years (in at least one case)

      Despite you saying “he is the opposite of Key and comes across as honest and trustworthy and seems genuinely interested in the wellbeing of Kiwis, getting rid of corruption and not just asset stripping and enriching himself and his backers like Key.”

      He is still single figures in the polls for PM and sometimes only the third choice.

      How you can say he is doing a great job is beyond logic.

      • KJT 4.3.1
        2 December 2016 at 1:28 pm

        Why is a National party true believer so concerned about Labour

        • james 4.3.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 1:40 pm

          I believe that we need an effective opposition to keep National “in check” – sadly at the moment we dont have one.

          And that I think is a risk.

          • WILD KATIPO 4.3.1.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 1:52 pm

            Um…surely you meant

            ” I believe that we need an effective neo liberal opposition to keep National ” on track ” … ?

            • james 4.3.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 2:13 pm

              That would be MY preference yes, but really an opposition could have any view to keep the government of the day in-check – if they had the support of the voting public.

              fact is labour is a joke at the moment and not a credible opposition.

              • marty mars …
                2 December 2016 at 2:37 pm

                wot? You agreed with the rewrite of your initial bogus statement then waffle on some more on it – get your talking points sorted cos you seem confused james – but really, this is what you said you believed ” I believe that we need an effective neo liberal opposition to keep National ” on track ” – that is a helluva long way from keeping the gnats “in check” – but really, it is sorta the opposite.

                • garibaldi …
                  2 December 2016 at 4:52 pm

                  The Left will not get traction whilst we have our abysmal , pathetic, sycophantic, media. Privatising the media ( ie deregulation) has meant ownership by Business , and they only employ right wing idiots who play the right wing “game”.

                  • In Vino …
                    2 December 2016 at 10:21 pm

                    Absolutely. And who was it who decreed that all media should be funded by advertising?? Marketers are the perfect middlemen – they insinuate their way into all transactions, portray themselves as indispensable, and bloodsuck the system dry.

                    In the case of the media, they also ensure that only market-minded people get editorial control. In the interest of shareholders – whose interests are protected long before the long-term interests of society are thought about (and rapidly discarded).

                    A sick system. And don’t try to tell me that the remnants of state broadcasting are not already pre-privatised.

              • aerobubble …
                3 December 2016 at 12:07 pm

                Labour is a joke. I went to the library to look up Green Philosophies, i found a book, Green philosophy by Soutron? a neolib text imho. We live in a society hollowed out by profit first thinkers, who have rigged society, gouged out universities of alternative thinking. So much so that the only authetic alternative now is alt-right. So Labour is a joke, its all a joke. New always has no profit in it, needs nuturing, and likely disrupts existing wealth.

    • bg 4.4
      3 December 2016 at 8:41 am

      And he has the party at 23% and his rating at 8% (slow clap)

  5. Anne 5
    2 December 2016 at 10:28 am

    I think it’s perfectly appropriate for Labour to aim for the center. Let other parties collect votes on the left – work with them – it’s the magic of MMP.

    Spot on. Political parties – be they Left or Right – who position themselves nearer the end of the political spectrum have a vital role to play, but they can never aspire to be the leading party of a MMP government. The two more broad based parties, Labour and National are the only options available. Therefore its a case of choosing whether you want a centre/left government or a centre/right government. And its up to voters to figure out the right mix they want to see.

    That is why the MOU between the Lab. and Green parties was such a necessary course of action. It should have happened before the 2014 election but better late than never.

    • KJT 5.1
      2 December 2016 at 1:24 pm

      Except, Labour went up in the polls, when David Cunliffe talked about going further left.

      Remenber not just cutting off our legs, but with anaesthesia.

      He was soon sabotaged by his fellow MP’s, helped by the media.

      • Anne 5.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 3:45 pm

        You misunderstand me KJT. I don’t mean Labour/Greens have to move to the centre. God forbid. The ‘centre’ is just an amorphous mass of nothing. Look at Peter Dunne! But together Lab and the Greens need to ensure that both the centre through to the far left feel comfortable with them.

        • Rae 5.1.1.2
          2 December 2016 at 5:41 pm

          The one decent idea Dunne had seems to have been long assigned to the bin, income splitting for taxation purposes for families.

          • KJT 5.1.1.2.1
            2 December 2016 at 8:15 pm

            Treating welfare recipients as individuals instead of totalitarian WINZ officials spying on their sex lives, is a good idea.

        • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.3
          3 December 2016 at 7:13 am

          Understandable that centrists seem incomprehensible to leftists, since we’re not bound by an ideology. Probably the thing we most share with other centrists is the tendency to choose the lesser of two evils when voting – but some of us aren’t that binary (I vote Green, despite seeing them as mostly clueless).

          Pragmatism is probably the primary characteristic you’re failing to notice. Centrists become swing-voters when they sense that the country needs a change. This crucial political group shares a tendency to act thus in the national interest when it matters. Which makes it principled.

  6. Hum 6
    2 December 2016 at 10:50 am

    According to some Little guy that nobody has ever voted for…

  7. Jo 7
    2 December 2016 at 11:32 am

    Unguarded, really, he would know that question was coming. So instead of a calm reasoned rebuttal all the public see is Little thinking it is a joke. He is walking disaster, and with Cunliffe going they have no options but to limp on to the election. The last two years he has just reinforced what a political novice he is and that he doesn’t have the personality or charisma to grow in the job. He looks worst 2 years on.

    Honestly if those idiots in the Labour caucus had put aside their own egos and left David as leader, he would have had 3 years to get himself established (Helen Clarke couldn’t do it in 1 year, and Key was leader of the opposition for 2). The political landscape would be totally different.

    Not sure Key would even still be here, a wiff that he might lose would have been enough to see him gone.

    This Labour caucus will be become legendary, political students will study them for the next 50 years, for being the most selfish, ego driven pack of political hacks ever to grace the corridors of power.

    • save nz 7.1
      2 December 2016 at 11:47 am

      And what’s your view of National Jo?

      • Jo 7.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 1:09 pm

        I don’t support National, raised in a Labour home. But I would say National are far superior at political management. If I am so wrong about Little why is he not doing better in the polls?

        • mary_a 7.1.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 1:27 pm

          @ Jo (7.1.1) “… you state –

          “National are far superior at political management.”

          Shouldn’t that be National is far superior at deceitful political manipulation and coercion?

        • save nz 7.1.1.2
          2 December 2016 at 2:15 pm

          Jo, please elaborate on your view in detail, – “National are far superior at political management.”

      • Muttonbird 7.1.2
        2 December 2016 at 1:25 pm

        I thought so too.

        Concern troll.

        The ‘I’ve always voted Labour’ schtick confirms this.

      • stigie 7.1.3
        2 December 2016 at 2:03 pm

        “Crickey”

    • Sigh 7.2
      2 December 2016 at 12:43 pm

      Cunliffe? Jesus. Talk to anyone involved in 2014.

      • Jo 7.2.1
        2 December 2016 at 1:18 pm

        The same could be said about Clark, when her party tried to roll her. Leaders need time for people to get to know them. Maybe I am wrong about Little and when he has been opposition leader for 5 years he might be ready. At the moment he appears to have learnt zip from the first 2.

        • Matthew Whitehead 7.2.1.1
          3 December 2016 at 2:04 pm

          I’m not sure Clark ever faced her party trying to sabotage the Party Vote against her. There’s a difference between “normal” coup attempts and actually throwing an election to get rid of a leader.

          Clark also had way more opportunities to work her way out of her predicament by recruiting her enemies. (look how important Cullen ended up being to her administration! He was a competitor originally) David gave his enemies plenty of positions but it didn’t stop the rebellion.

    • gsays 7.3
      2 December 2016 at 12:46 pm

      hi jo, funny, i agree with you that little would expect the question.

      i disagree with you about the response.

      his laughter was genuine, appropriate and attractive.

      he went up a couple of notches in my view.

      • save nz 7.3.1
        2 December 2016 at 1:00 pm

        Agree with gsays – Little looked good laughing off a ridiculous question.

        • Jo 7.3.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 1:13 pm

          No it is not. He started this by calling Legget out. There was never any political gain in commenting about him.

          Someone needs to explain to Little that everytime he says something that will not be the end of it, and if he doesn’t want to keep answering questions, shut up to begin with. Now he will be asked what he finds funny about it and what he says to his supporters who would like to see the party move more to the left.

  8. Exile 8
    2 December 2016 at 1:08 pm

    This is whats scary, people actually think that the ideas of our 2014 campaign reasoned in NZ. Did you step out of the internet bubble and speak to our electorate in 2014? Another 2014 election and the second largest party in this country is NZ first.

    We lost, we got spanked because e completely failed to resonate among the electorate. I dont know how many long term Labour voters that refused to vote for us in 2014, but I sure know I never ever want to enter an election campaign with such dysfunctional leadership.

    Yes we need the middle. Thats how we win elections. Clark understood that and handled it superbly. We need to understand what she did that won us elections and not continue to dream of a failed campaign like 2014. Our best bet is to have NZ first under Winston wreck havoc in Nationals dissatisfied electorates, such as Northland, while we focus on winning the general vote and securing our own electorates.
    In this election cycle Winston is our best weapon, only he can steal enough votes of National to give us a chance of power.
    The greens, I am in the Helen Clark camp of keeping them as far away from us as possible. We wont win the general vote cooperating with them. Better leave them to shore up dissatisfied far left voters.

    • gsays 8.1
      2 December 2016 at 1:12 pm

      hi exile,
      well made points.

    • garibaldi 8.2
      2 December 2016 at 5:02 pm

      As a long time Green supporter I think your comment sucks Exile, and you are condemning us to a 4th term of Key.
      Why can’t you staunch Labourites realize how much you have lost the plot.? You carry on as if you are the one and only left wing party and you aren’t even left wing any more ( and haven’t been since 1984).

      • David C 8.2.1
        2 December 2016 at 5:25 pm

        garibaldi.
        Did you catch your illustrious co leader attacking property owners rights yesterday in parliament?

      • Anne 8.2.2
        2 December 2016 at 10:15 pm

        Why can’t you staunch Labourites realize how much you have lost the plot.? You carry on as if you are the one and only left wing party and you aren’t even left wing any more ( and haven’t been since 1984).

        It wasn’t “the rank and file” who lost the plot garibaldi. It was the caucus and then not all of them. Fortunately the rank and file won out in the end and with Andrew Little things are quickly improving. But its not something that can happen overnight. It takes time after 30 plus years of neoliberalism. As a “staunch” member of the rank and file I, along with most other members, started calling for an agreement with the Greens years ago. You need to catch up with developments…

        • Jenny Kirk 8.2.2.1
          3 December 2016 at 8:32 am

          + 100% Anne
          I’m commenting on this thread late in the piece (or early-ish in the morning) – all the other staunch Labour people that I know also support us going into agreement with the Greens, and we appreciate what Andrew Little has done so far in bringing the caucus together, starting to remove the dead wood neo-libs and getting Labour back on track with proper, reality-based policies, and a strategy that will have an impact come election time.

          All the negative comments are just that : negative from Nats who can see behind the scenes that Andrew Little and Labour are on track to get going properly in 2017 .

    • bg 8.3
      3 December 2016 at 8:53 am

      You sound pretty confident that Winston is on your side. Winston will never go with Greens so Labour needs to be at 40% not the low 20’s

      Its pathetic that their ambition is to rely on other parties to get them across the line.

  9. Gosman 9
    2 December 2016 at 1:13 pm

    I think you need to define hard left and left a little better so that your definition of centre can be made clear. The right are very good at doing this. If you want to win the battle of the centre win it’s definition.

    • WILD KATIPO 9.1
      2 December 2016 at 1:37 pm

      Left 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Right

      1 = Cares about people – 10 = Doesnt give a shit

      • Red 9.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 2:06 pm

        1s think they care about people and believes in equal outcomes not opportunity, thus no room for individual responsibility or consequences, hence when things go wrong it’s always the systems fault. 1s also normally driven by division by class and identity, not that what binds us as individuals, also 1s are extremely condescending in that they are the only ones that care, and should any one dare hold and alternative view or ideology they are not worthy of existence

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 2:51 pm

          Just to be pedantic, if you’re identifying people as “1s” then by definition they are the only ones who care about people to that extent. Everyone else is a higher number on the spectrum, and therefore does not care about people as much as a “1”.

          Also, saying that another group of people are “unworthy of existence” is actually the opposite of “caring about people”, so by definition anybody you designate as a “1” is incapable of deeming another person being unworthy of existence.

          I think I can see what you were trying to do, but you’re obviously unfamiliar with a decile continuum.

          • Red 9.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 4:09 pm

            I siad 1s “think” they care however they do more harm than good (eg Blosheviks as an extreme case) similar they only care on their terms ie at class and identity level not individuals. Irrespective I do agree with you re strict definition of scale, maybe make more sense if scale was those who perceives themselves as Far left vs far right continues

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2016 at 5:08 pm

              I know you said 1s “think” they care, but the entire spectrum was defined by actuality rather than self-perception.

              Or maybe you wanted to re-label the spectrum as being 1=”thinks they care about people” – 10=”thinks they don’t give a shit”?

              And self-perception is a farce: the individual’s perspective creates an inherent bias in their reporting.

              Consider a farfarfar-right economist, one who thinks government should be devolved and all regulations eliminated, including all regulations about safety or toxic waste. They’d be so far right that everyone seems dangerously left wing. Similarly, a full communist would think everyone else is a tory splitter (we see a lot of those accusations here lol).

              And what if the mood of the times changes? Most people in the middle of the curve in NZ today would be very right wing compared with the median in, say, 1970. But then many of those would have been more left wing than the 1914 median.

              So any useful continuum needs an independent measure, not a subjective one, if it’s to have cross-party meaning.

      • Alan 9.1.2
        2 December 2016 at 3:50 pm

        Wild Katipo, oh dear, how vain and naive of you.

        • WILD KATIPO 9.1.2.1
          2 December 2016 at 5:06 pm

          Oooooo… methinks not really ,… gotcha riled up enough to get personal now , didnt it?

          Whats the matter with you uptight righties? No sense of the ridiculous or even the ironic?… geez… and to think we got some of them in parliament as well…no wonder the country’s going to the wall.

          Heres one for you and Gosman , …and all the rest of the concern trolls as well.

      • Gosman 9.1.3
        2 December 2016 at 4:38 pm

        Do you really think you can define it in that simplistic terms? Attempting to do so will likely cause the right to counter and it will be caught up in a huge debate which is unlikely to help clarify things for the average punter. It is much better to define the left in terms of policies that the right won’t dispute (e.g activist government).

    • Rae 9.2
      2 December 2016 at 5:58 pm

      The right wing has life a little easy in that they seem to only deal with one thing, money. The left has a myriad of legitimate concerns that need to be dealt with from climate change to homelessness, from the reaming out of the health system to no justice for the Pike River 29, from rebalancing the economy so there is less inequality to the environment, from minority rights to policing. That is just a smattering of things that tend to be part of the left, it is a far more all encompassing, more thoughtful part of the political spectrum, the right just looks at the balance sheet.
      All the right does is slash budgets and expect people at the pointy end to somehow deal with it, till we end up with people losing their sight because they are not being seen to in a timely fashion.
      Conservatism is easy, just put on your bigot’s hats and you are away. To paraphrase Kermit the Frog, It’s not easy being left, there is always some concern or other that the right would rather just ignore, The right wing is very male-centric and often, that equates to white male-centric, currently it is in a panic as it thinks, shit, don’t want to give up my privilege, don’t want to give up my V8, don’t want to, don’t want to, don’t want to, my rights are far more important than my kids’ or my kids’ kids’.
      Currently the right wing is having a resurgence, but it will have to stop or we will be left standing in a wasteland of a world. We know we need to stop chopping down forests. We know we are very probably well past peak people but we must keep growing (population as population is growths bottom line) because if we don’t capitalism will fail. We know we need to reduce our reliance on plastic and keep it out of the oceans, we know we need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels but we would rather read the conspiracy theorists and the deniers than actually get off our fat fucking arses and DO SOMETHING.
      I am just hoping this craziness will stop before it is too late.

  10. Olwyn 10
    2 December 2016 at 1:55 pm

    My problem with the statement, I think it’s perfectly appropriate for Labour to aim for the center., (apart from the US spelling of “centre”) is this: it comes across as code for “leave real politics alone and stick with the familiar cultural stuff.” By “real politics” I mean using what leverage you have, gaining what further leverage you can, and advancing the position of your constituents wherever you judge you can make it work.

    Under neoliberalism, the working class is in an analogous position to a colonised people in the nineteenth century, and this is deliberate. And as the rise of Trump in the US ought to show, a party of the left that is reduced to its cultural wing, it’s real-politic being much the same as its opponents, makes even its liberals vulnerable when the working class either take their vote elsewhere or stop voting. Without a real-political force underpinning them, the liberals themselves become dispensable once they no longer serve to partly disguise the inroads taken by the lever-holding right.

    So far I have seen some hopeful policies from Labour. I would like to see more of the spirit that will be necessary if they are to be meaningfully implemented.

    • save nz 10.1
      2 December 2016 at 2:39 pm

      Policy might work if you have an even playing field with MSM but it is clear that is not the case. Labour and Greens will have to base their campaigns based on having their policies twisted, ridiculed and the Natz continual failures not being challenged on a single thing and our MSM being similar to China or Russia in their constant adoration of Great Leader King Key.

      • Olwyn 10.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 3:03 pm

        Real political engagement means finding ways through, round or past obstacles, including those posed by the media. It is harder if you are not the face of the big-money team, but harder doesn’t mean impossible.

    • Gosman 10.2
      2 December 2016 at 4:44 pm

      The problem for the left is that they don’t really have a viable practical alternative that they can refer to. They used to when Communism was all the rage but since that died a death the most the left can point to is at worst Venezuela or at best Sweden and Norway. Considering Venezuela is rapidly turning in to a failed state and Sweden and Norway are not entirely a paradigm shift away from other forms of Capitalism it is no wonder the left is having trouble defining itself.

      • KJT 10.2.1
        2 December 2016 at 4:59 pm

        Of course we could refer to the time, when “Socialist” New Zealand had the highest standard of living in the world.

        Or the US with the “socialist” new deal. Since that was abandoned they have depended on wars to support their economy.

        Venezuala is failing for the entirely capitalist reason, that prices dropped for their only export. Just like Chicago.
        I notice you do not mention the glorious “capitalist experiments of Mexico, Columbia, San Salvadore, Jamaica, Haiti, Pinochet’s Chile, Chicago, Afghanistan, New Orleans.
        The same thing will happen to “Capitalist” New Zealand if we do not diversify from Dairy.

        And the success of California and Washington State. The two most “socialist” States in the USA.

        • garibaldi 10.2.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 5:04 pm

          Onya KJT.

        • chris73 10.2.1.2
          2 December 2016 at 5:16 pm

          “Of course we could refer to the time, when “Socialist” New Zealand had the highest standard of living in the world.”

          Hey if Labour can convince the UK to buy all of exports again then they’ll get my vote

          “Venezuala is failing for the entirely capitalist reason, that prices dropped for their only export. Just like Chicago.”

          Thier “only” export is oil, somehow they managed to go broke while having the largest proven oil reserves in the world

        • Gosman 10.2.1.3
          2 December 2016 at 5:21 pm

          I think you mean Detroit and not Chicago. Chicago’s economy is generally doing okay.

        • Olwyn 10.2.1.4
          2 December 2016 at 7:15 pm

          Thanks KJT – good answer!!

  11. save nz 11
    2 December 2016 at 2:21 pm

    In my view Key is now the weakest attack point for the Natz.

    Love to see labour do a campaign with Key’s quotes as the basis and the date he says it.

    First quote – we will get the Pike River miners out.

    Second quote – We will not sell anymore assets (picture of state house sell offs)

    Third quote – Housing is not in crisis

    all his many lies – there’s probably beauties around Havelock North (we don’t know where the cow shit came from), the fisheries (fish dumping etc), All the promises he made in CHCH etc etc

    Labour need to turn the focus on Mr Key, because like the emperors new clothes, there is nothing behind the illusion and after 9 years of rule, there is nothing for the Natz to be proud of.

    • james 11.1
      2 December 2016 at 3:13 pm

      “In my view Key is now the weakest attack point for the Natz.”

      Really?? – how well has it worked trying that for the last 8 years?

      • save nz 11.1.1
        2 December 2016 at 7:35 pm

        James things have really changed in the last 8 years. Middle NZ is waking up to lower wages, higher prices and more and more unjust issues like Pike River. Key is declining big time in popularity. Little might be unpopular but Key is declining alarmingly from 50 or whatever to 30’s… That’s a lot of unhappy voters who liked him previously but not any more.

        • chris73 11.1.1.1
          2 December 2016 at 8:31 pm

          So what would you describe Little dropping from 10% to 8% and, if middle NZ are waking up, why isn’t it reflected in the polls?

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.2
      2 December 2016 at 3:20 pm

      “In my view Key is now the weakest attack point for the Natz.

      Love to see labour do a campaign with Key’s quotes as the basis and the date he says it.”

      No no no no no please, no.

      Cut the personal attacks, cut the snide remarks, get on with the job of formulating policy that resonates with the majority and develop and publicise Labour’s strategy on how to implement these policies.

      But please…let us not have another election campaign based on ‘he did, he said, they did, they said’ rubbish.

      We all know that Our Leader is an ‘orrible person who surrounds ‘imself with other ‘orrible people…belabouring the point is adolescent and takes up valuable ‘getting our better plan out there’ time.

      imho.

      • chris73 11.2.1
        2 December 2016 at 5:21 pm

        The thing is this would actually be really good idea for Labour so of course they wouldn’t do it

      • save nz 11.2.2
        2 December 2016 at 7:41 pm

        The reality is that voters like clear messages. Trump worked because what he said was simple and made sense to the voters. People did not like Clinton and got sick of being told how amazing she was.

        Labour’s messages have traditionally been too complicated and it’s un clear what their policy is. Due to the MSM it is not possible for Labour and Greens to get a fair go any more.

        Key is declining badly in popularity and those are swing voters that need to get the message to vote Labour. Key should be made accountable for all his lies. The spot light needs to go off Labour and onto the National party and what little they have achieved and all the lies they made in the past 9 years.

        Also all the anti Trump media helped Trump in the end – Little is the under dog and being attacked by the establishment. It might work for him.

        • KJT 11.2.2.1
          2 December 2016 at 8:10 pm

          “There is no such thing as bad publicity”.

          To often Labour and the Greens are buying into Nationals, and the biased media, framing of issues.

          Forget about Key.

          Keep hammering how the left wing have better more people friendly policies.

          • Rosemary McDonald 11.2.2.1.1
            2 December 2016 at 9:00 pm

            “Keep hammering how the left wing have better more people friendly policies.”

            10/10

            🙂

        • chris73 11.2.2.2
          2 December 2016 at 8:22 pm

          “Key is declining badly in popularity and those are swing voters that need to get the message to vote Labour.”

          Really, the polls suggest otherwise

          “Also all the anti Trump media helped Trump in the end – Little is the under dog and being attacked by the establishment. It might work for him”

          I think you’re going to be a very unhappy camper on election night if you really believe that.

          Little was hand picked by the unions, was the president of Labour and tried twice to win an electorate which makes him the establishment.

          The GOP tried their best to stop Trump, Trump has never held or run for office and successfully portrayed himself as anti-establishment

          Trump is widely known through various pop culture and to put it nicely Little is not very well known

          Trump has a weird, odd sort of charisma, Little is probably a decent, intelligent guy but he, to put it nicely again, doesn’t come across well

          Also, and this is merely my opinion, NZ had its “brexit” or “drain the swamp” moment during the MMP debate so the hope that a groundswell of voters will suddenly rise up out of nowhere and will defeat John Key John Key is but a dream

    • Grantoc 11.3
      2 December 2016 at 9:31 pm

      A great strategy ‘save nz’. It worked so well in the last three elections for Labour. Actually I mean National. All it will do is to remind the punters why they like Key and why they find Little boring and irrelevant in comparison.

      Good luck with it.

      • save nz 11.3.1
        3 December 2016 at 12:41 pm

        @Grantoc Actually going the ‘policy way’ has not worked for Labour the last lost elections. Remember ‘vote positive’.

        Labour NEVER campaigned about the bad job the Natz were doing as part of their campaign. It was all ‘positive’ and that did not work because not enough voters felt that positive about what Labour were offering as an alternative.

        In the UK the UK labour also campaigned on a lovely middle of the road campaign – also did not work. But clearly voters wanted change aka Brexit, – but the changes Labour in the UK wanted were not the same as what the voters wanted – they wanted radical change in a direction away from globalism.

        In the USA Trump and Clinton ran dirty campaigns against each other. It worked for Trump to want to go in a different direction to the current status quo and to attack globalism.

        Labour’s lets put up taxes for the middle class, but don’t talk about the bad job Natz globalisation policies are destroying our country may not work if they run that for the fourth time in an election. That was the message that failed to resonate last election – especially amongst Labour voters who were middle class.

        • KJT 11.3.1.1
          3 December 2016 at 8:14 pm

          Talking about raising the pension age bombed totally with those of us, who haven’t spent our lives sitting behind a desk.
          Those of us who live in hope, our health makes it to retirement.

    • infused 11.4
      2 December 2016 at 11:20 pm

      lel.

  12. HDCAFriendlyTroll 12
    2 December 2016 at 2:33 pm

    Andrew Little is doing a splendid job. God willing, he’ll be leader of the opposition for many years to come.

  13. Herb 13
    2 December 2016 at 2:48 pm

    According some Legget guy that no one has ever heard of, Labour is moving “too far to the left”.

    that statement says a lot and if you were listening , could well be one of reasons 23% could well be the high point.

  14. james 14
    2 December 2016 at 3:10 pm

    “According some Legget guy that no one has ever heard of”

    24,697.00 people voted for him. And now a lot more people have heard of him.

    Im guessing he will make it in on the list.

  15. McFlock 15
    2 December 2016 at 5:12 pm

    Goes to show Labour can’t win – gets bollocked incessantly for not being left wing enough, then gets bollocked for being too left wing.

    Fuck it. Labour should just do their best on principle, and let the fruits come forth as they may.

    • KJT 15.1
      2 December 2016 at 8:12 pm

      First they need to make it clear what their principles are?

      With clear intents for action, not just appealing sounding words.

  16. Rae 16
    2 December 2016 at 6:18 pm

    Well he is appropriately named, as Legget legs it

  17. Thinkerr 17
    2 December 2016 at 8:08 pm

    In the US, the left candidate lost because the left felt disenfranchised by the right-leaning of the left candidate and that the right candidate appeared to be speaking out for the common man and dissing the neoliberalism that has been adopted by both right and left in different ways for 30+ years.

    Now isn’t the time for NZ’s left to try to become right-in-left’s clothing, a la Blair. Now is the time to point to the rest of the world, which is demonstrating its dissatisfaction with neoliberalism, and then putting a good case for centre-left policies.

    Problem is, there’s a whole generation who can’t remember life without neoliberalism.

    • Sabine 17.1
      2 December 2016 at 8:49 pm

      in the US the left won the popular vote by 2.5 million (still counting) and lost the electoral college by 80.000 votes.

      fixed your typo.

      and they call neo-liberalism neo-conservatism and its the same shit, but ok cause republicans do it.

      Fact is that the left lost because a. they could not unite behind the candidate (irrespective of whom would have been. I think Sanders would not have won either, nor would Jesus have won for that matter), b. because the fear full white minority felt that it was economically and fiscally prudent to vote away health care and social security and abortions rights (especially those, can’t have nasty women not carry any and all pregnancies to term), and last but least there is a good part of the country that would just love to go back to the times where saying n****r, c**nt, r******d are just a.o.k. and they were the rule of the land.

      but mainly the left lost because theystayed at home and did not vote cause their candidate did not make it and besides surely some other geezer will come and vote for them and my vote won’t matter.

      Well they have between 4 – 20 years time to learn just how much their vote would have mattered.

      The only ones in this country that i have pity for are all those that did not get to vote because they are not yet of age, and those that did not get to vote due to voter suppression and closed polls.

  18. Doug 18
    2 December 2016 at 9:16 pm

    Duncan Garner: After nearly 3000 days in opposition Little’s Labour has lost the ‘everyman’
    The ‘everyman’ has been ditched in favour of this current mob. This is a narrower Labour Party, the so-called broad church has been given its marching orders.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-body-elections/87115662/duncan-garner-after-nearly-3000-days-in-opposition-littles-labour-has-lost-the-everyman

  19. Ross 19
    2 December 2016 at 10:28 pm

    Editorial: Labour is moving Right, not Left, and Leggett is no big loss.

    Some of the more naive pundits have swallowed the notion that the deal with the Greens has pulled Labour to the Left. They claim that Labour needs the centre but is now drifting away from its working-class roots.

    This is the self-serving argument of the Wellington mayoral candidate, Nick Leggett, who is switching to National. That switch is absolutely no surprise. Leggett is an ambitious politician and thought he could do well by abandoning Porirua for the much bigger city of Wellington.

    He challenged the Labour candidate, Justin Lester, and lost handily. Leggett’s Right-wing tendencies were already obvious when he was mayor of Porirua. He was clearly no longer an ally of Labour. Now he has joined a party where he more naturally belongs.

    Should Labour be grieving? Not really. Does the departure of Leggett mean Labour has moved suicidally to the Left? No. In fact, under Andrew Little Labour has clearly moved to the Right.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/87093213/editorial-labour-is-moving-right-not-left-and-leggett-is-no-big-loss

    • KJT 19.1
      3 December 2016 at 4:52 pm

      Maybe Leggat was confused.

      Labour moving to the left would be, restoring the right to strike, Raising welfare payments, restoring “free” education, reversing the income tax GST switch, Capital gains taxes, inheritance and wealth taxes, restoring services such as health and housing, nationalising power production, etc.

      Because National has been the only party to raise welfare benefits he thinks they are Labour.

      Ignoring the fact that National have put many more people in need of welfare.

  20. Michael 20
    3 December 2016 at 8:32 am

    Am I the only one that sees an issue with his response to this?

    Where are Labour’s communications people? Why did no one attempt to think of a good answer to this question that will obviously be asked? The way he answered this will just repel voters.

    He should have said something like:

    “I think that Labour will be going into the 2017 election with a range of policies that will truly help the working families of New Zealand, and take on John Key’s legacy of stagnating wages, out-of-control housing market, and an underfunded health system. It’s not about left or right, it’s about whether you’ve got the policies that will actually make New Zealand a better place to live.”

    • Jenny Kirk 20.1
      3 December 2016 at 8:39 am

      Nonsense Michael – the way Andrew Little answered the question was brilliant. Showed him up as a real man, one with a real sense of humour – not a humanoid robot like ShonKey is.

      And anyway, AL has been constantly saying – but the media won’t allow him the time and space to say it publicly – that Labour is for everyone – not just the 1% at the top.

      • Michael 20.1.1
        3 December 2016 at 8:49 am

        I agree that it is good to have those unguarded, human moments like this.

        But like you said, “the media won’t allow him the time and space to say it”. So when Little is handed with an opportunity like this, he has to be *on message*. If you get unfavourable treatment by the media and limited time to push your message, you can’t afford to go off message. The media will spin Little’s response here as scandalous/stupid in some way. Unfortunately, this sort of response won’t increase Labour’s standing in the polls, as most people aren’t really dissatisfied with Key’s persona at the moment – that’s why he’s winning. I don’t think Little/Labour can match him on charisma, etc, so Labour has to be 100% on message.

        Just say, over and over again, that same message. Even if it doesn’t really answer the question.

      • Matthew Whitehead 20.1.2
        3 December 2016 at 1:56 pm

        Yeah, I have to agree this is literally the best response I’ve seen Little give in a while. He can’t go around laughing his head off to everything from here on out, but sometimes shooting straight from the hip and giving your most genuine reaction is important in politics.

  21. Pete George 21
    3 December 2016 at 9:05 am

    Labour’s biggest problem isn’t about too left or too centre or too right.

    They have a serious credibility problem. They lack clarity, they dither, most of their MPs seem to be marking time, they lack confidence and belief, they lack purpose.

    The caucus looks like it is withering away, and even the promotion and defence of Labour here has become low key and muted.

    The leader is a part of this but there is more than a Little Labour problem. But it will require a significant change to leadership to turn things around, someone has to lead change into a positive direction.

    Andrew has to rethink his approach and he has to reform his own public persona. He has to start by really believing he can lead change. And then showing it.

    • Jenny Kirk 21.1
      3 December 2016 at 9:16 am

      ” and even the promotion and defence of Labour here has become low key and muted “, says Pete George above.

      And that is probably because The Standard appears to have been taken over by rightwing trolls for the time being – no real political discussion, just a constant dissing of Labour …….

      after a while, that gets tedious and I, for one, can’t be bothered with it ….. nor can I be bothered wasting time and energy on answering those trolls – except occasionally like right now.

    • KJT 21.2
      3 December 2016 at 9:40 am

      Never thought i would agree with Pete George. The blancmange.

      Though could be projection on his part. He describes Dunne rather well here. Also.

      Don’t think the problem is Little, or the party members.

      It is the bunch of careerist political academics in the Parliamentary Labour party, who would rather they stay in opposition, if they don’t get their way.

    • Ross 21.3
      3 December 2016 at 12:15 pm

      Pete,

      You can’t say former National MP Arthur Anae lacks purpose! He knows when he’s onto a good thing. No doubt you think he’s a great bloke. 🙂 Shame about the workers he’s possibly exploiting.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/87056691/former-national-mp-ordered-to-stop-helping-high-risk-sex-offenders

  22. burt 22
    3 December 2016 at 1:50 pm

    Who coaches this guy. He looks like a 9 year old putting on a big laugh because adults are laughing.

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