Last night’s ASB Finance Debate (updated)

Written By: - Date published: 6:46 pm, September 14th, 2023 - 70 comments
Categories: election 2023 - Tags:

I’m updating the post with my impressions from the debate last night (replay video below).

I don’t watch a lot of political theatre and I’d forgotten how much I hate macho politics. The odd flash back to John Key punching David Cunliffe repeatedly on national TV and crowing about it was useful to see where the bottom of the barrel is and that we’re not actually there. Last night was still however a reminder that at least some of our leaders see the parry and thrust as more important than say the electorate being well informed about party policy and economics.

The key things that stood out for me,

National and Act’s response to the cost of living crisis is to cut government spending. Unfortunately for Act on the night, that would mean Queenstown losing funding for the big sporting and cultural events that are core to the area’s way of life and economy. Hugely ironic was hearing them talk about the current Labour government’s ‘overspending’ when Queenstown did very well out of government pandemic financial support. Overall, unsurprisingly, the right want business not government to lead the way.

Labour will tighten our belts for us. Nothing nearly as horrific as the ideological commitment from the right to take from most of us and give to the rich, but significant in that they are still largely trapped in the old economy and can’t see a way out. Robertson did well in terms of presenting the good things Labour has done and taking part in the on stage jousting.

James Shaw was sober compared to the rest. He seemed off his game to me, but then he’s not the Green Party finance person (Julie Anne Genter is), so perhaps he was underprepared. Nevertheless, he presented solid arguments rather than political theatre rhetoric or the badly done sophistry of Nicola Willis trying to fudge their tax policy fuck up. The Greens are of course focused on the green economy, and Shaw explains the concepts well.

I can’t also help but see the difference between Shaw and the others as him just being on a different planet, him being in planet earth, everyone else being on the planet where we actually ignore the planet and pretend that the economy is god. While Seymour, Robertson and Willis were in full orthodox performance, Shaw must have been acutely aware of the major study published the day before the debate showing that Earth is beyond six of nine planetary boundaries thanks to human action and inaction. From the Guardian coverage,

Earth’s life support systems have been so damaged that the planet is “well outside the safe operating space for humanity”, scientists have warned.

Their assessment found that six out of nine “planetary boundaries” had been broken because of human-caused pollution and destruction of the natural world. The planetary boundaries are the limits of key global systems – such as climate, water and wildlife diversity – beyond which their ability to maintain a healthy planet is in danger of failing.

Where everyone else is treating the climate and ecology crises as this discrete part of the economy, one of many things that need to be taken into account and certainly not the most important (make no mistake, both Act and National want to cut funding to New Zealand’s climate action), the Greens are saying no, our economy sits within and is utterly dependent upon the natural world, and thus we must consider the climate and ecology crises in everything we do.

The gist as I understand it,

  1. our current economic system cannot survive the climate collpase that will ensue if we don’t drop GHGs fast.
  2. the kind of economy that we need to drop GHGs will help mitigate the worst of climate change and help us adapt and help us transition. Win, win, win. This is important, so I will reiterate. We can change our system so that we both prevent climate catastrophe and adapt to what is already locked in.
  3. the Greens have a plan for that, broadly speaking it’s about a just transition (fairness for those worst affected) that uses the needed changes to drive the economy eg green tech and innovation

Shaw didn’t get a lot of time to talk about that last night, but covered the basics. He also did well on a number of other topics, including pointing out that the Greens are offering better tax cuts than National.

Th ball is in our court right now. Instead of giving up, we have 4 weeks to fight with everything we have in order for the left to win this election. Willis demonstrated how badly prepared National are for running the economy but also the kinds of damage they will do even in one term. Act demonstrated the kind of hard right fuckery we can expect in any coalition deals. I don’t think it’s a done deal by any means. But I do think the rise of the Greens and taking climate seriously matters, not in spite of the cost of living crisis but because it’s yet another door opening to transition.

________________________________________________________________

The Chamber of Commerce in Queenstown is hosting tonight’s debate from 7pm.

On Thursday 14 September, in partnership with ASB we’re bringing you an engaging debate between the current Finance Minister and Finance Spokespersons from the top four polling parties to help you make an informed and purposeful decision when it comes time to vote. The debate will be moderated by TVNZ’s Q&A and Saturday Mornings on Newstalk ZB host, Jack Tame.

70 comments on “Last night’s ASB Finance Debate (updated) ”

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  2. Ad 2
    14 September 2023 at 7:06 pm

    That Chamber just wants all relevant legislation gutted and in particular wants to see all those new labour regulations buried. I've seen 11 to a flat sleeping shifts, plenty of people sleeping in vans all around Queenstown.

    • weka 2.1
      14 September 2023 at 7:17 pm

      It's an appropriate place to have this particular debate all things considered.

      The Mayor talks a good game for Queenstown.

  3. bwaghorn 3
    14 September 2023 at 7:36 pm

    Grant Robinson claps every one on , petulant right wingers chuck a couple of painful ones to to James Shaw, says it all

  4. higherstandard 4
    14 September 2023 at 7:47 pm

    Lol …. how many more weeks of this nonsense have we got to put up with ?

  5. weka 5
    14 September 2023 at 7:51 pm

    Bookmarking so someone can explain to me how investing in solar is anti-inflationary.

    • AB 5.1
      14 September 2023 at 8:09 pm

      I'm guessing because sunlight does not have to be imported, unlike oil. Therefore it's potentially not subject to supply chain disruption by wars, cartel-like price gouging by oil companies and distributors, geo-political manoeuvring by oil exporting countries or exploding cost of production as the easily-accessible stuff is increasingly all gone?

      Though note that we could always implement it in a bad way that did allow cartel-like price gouging – NACT would do that in a heartbeat to reward their cronies. If done well, it does promise a renewable supply of energy at stable (perhaps even declining) cost – which would be anti-inflationary.

      As usual, the only sane people on the stage are Shaw and Robertson (and Tame). The audience are frankly bonkers too – but it is Queenstown, a place long-since wrecked by the money-grubbers and best avoided like the plague imho.

      • Anne 5.1.1
        14 September 2023 at 8:33 pm

        As usual, the only sane people on the stage are Shaw and Robertson (and Tame)

        yes

        Nicola's strategy is to shout her way through the debate and in particular shout Grant down. There's a word for her but I won't use it here. 😉

        • Kat 5.1.1.1
          14 September 2023 at 8:42 pm

          Well Anne, I can imagine the B word, the C word, even the A word….. but really she is just plain thick…..

          • Anne 5.1.1.1.1
            14 September 2023 at 8:47 pm

            " she is just plain thick….

            Which is why she has to resort to shouting.

            No, not the C word… that's going too far.

            • Kat 5.1.1.1.1.1
              14 September 2023 at 8:53 pm

              I'm waiting to see that farmer with his new placard….JUST A THICK COMMUNIST……….with all those new taxes n’all……

            • Rosielee 5.1.1.1.1.2
              15 September 2023 at 9:42 am

              The C word is fine — Cunning!

            • Barfly 5.1.1.1.1.3
              15 September 2023 at 11:52 am

              Hmm 'c' words for Nicola Willis I'll start

              "cancerous, crazed, caterwauling, cold, cruel, clueless and cowardly "

              Anymore got more? devil

        • ianmac 5.1.1.2
          14 September 2023 at 8:47 pm

          Not a shout from Nicola so much as a shrill. Nicola is not really on top of her game compared to Grant but she has caught the word salad from her boss.

          • Anne 5.1.1.2.1
            14 September 2023 at 10:22 pm

            Might have something to do with the links. I watched the TVNZ link and she came across as shouting. Mind you, its possible the operator was turning up the volume on her mike. 👿

          • Ngungukai 5.1.1.2.2
            15 September 2023 at 10:35 am

            Another wired up pre-menapausal female, not talking sense.

            [this post-menopausal, sick of macho dickheads, female is banning you until Monday for blatant sexism (read the Policy). This is not the first time you’ve been asked to stop with the inane comments. Take this as a final warning – weka]

            • Incognito 5.1.1.2.2.1
              15 September 2023 at 10:56 am

              Your humourless misogyny has been noted. Undoubtedly, the Author of this Post will be pleased and smiling.

            • weka 5.1.1.2.2.2
              15 September 2023 at 11:58 am

              mod note.

              • higherstandard …
                15 September 2023 at 1:59 pm

                Don't agree with you on policy very often Weka but I'd love you to moderate the political debates on TV perhaps with the politicians all having a low voltage collar on to keep them in line

                • weka …
                  15 September 2023 at 2:15 pm

                  I was going to say I'd be terrible at that because with online moderating you have time to think about what is best to do. However earlier in the year, I co-hosted a live twitter Space (which is audio only) with some radfems about Kellie Jay Keen, and KJK joined in. Hundreds of people listening on both the radfem and the KJK supporters side, maybe ten talking. The main tool there is the ability to mute everyone 😈 Which I did a number of times when they started abusing each other or talking over the top of each other.

                  You can also run a system where people have to put their hand up to speak.

                  No shock collars needed 😇

                  It was a good learning curve and I don't think I did too badly.

        • Ngungukai 5.1.1.3
          15 September 2023 at 10:34 am

          Only politician on his game this 2023 Election, still relevant at 87 years old doing better than Joe Biden IMHO. Hopefully Winston First can get 8-9% this General Election ???

      • Graeme 5.1.2
        14 September 2023 at 8:39 pm

        Queenstown's currently being plastered with Act billboards, they're everywhere. Would be two to every National one, with Green and Labour signs less than 1/10 the National tally. ACT, and National, seem to be very well resourced around the town.

        • Peter 5.1.2.1
          15 September 2023 at 8:23 am

          At the last election didn’t Seymour go on a racist jaunt to Queenstown?

        • Bearded Git 5.1.2.2
          15 September 2023 at 10:31 am

          Yesterday, with a friend I resurrected two Labour billboards in Wanaka that had been smashed down. The Green ones seemed to be largely intact.

          • Graeme 5.1.2.2.1
            15 September 2023 at 1:11 pm

            In town this morning and the Nat billboard crew had a bit of work to do. Odd coincidence that it happened last night as trashed signs haven't been a thing, so far…

      • EE 5.1.3
        14 September 2023 at 9:27 pm

        I agree AB, getting rid of the reliance on the petrol industry is anti-inflationary.

  6. aj 6
    14 September 2023 at 9:09 pm

    Drove through a large part of the Southland electorate early this week, Lumsden / Queenstown / Cromwell-Alexandra / down to Raes Junction and across to Gore. Only saw 1 labour sign, 1 green sign, outside urban centres but Nat/ACT and minor parties hoarding literally littering the rural landscape – really spoiling the views.

    Groundswell heartland.

  7. PsyclingLeft.Always 7
    14 September 2023 at 9:44 pm

    'Release the costings': Parties face off in finance debate

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/release-costings-parties-face-finance-debate

    Its maybe a given that Qtown….is NAct turf. (Been National since..forever). Labour and Greens get booed. NAct get cheers.

    Ive never quite understood why….surely there are more Workers (Hospo, Cleaners, Labourers, etc etc) than bosses… or B and B owners?

    Maybe they are tired? I can understand.. hard work does that. And just trying to live in the place !

    Maybe its just apathy.

  8. Obtrectator 8
    15 September 2023 at 12:03 am

    Presumably a lot of those van-sleepers and other precariat members trying to get by in
    Squeezedtown will not be registered to vote ….

    • Tiger Mountain 8.1
      15 September 2023 at 7:19 am

      Transcience, renting, vehicle living, will surely be factors in enrolment levels. Owners of warm, dry homes with stable street addresses will more likely a) receive their orange graphic Electoral Commission mail, and b) action it and turn out to vote.

      A postal address must be provided for Electoral Commission purposes, but now PO Boxes or a nominated person address who agrees to hold your mail is allowed. This change has not been widely publicised, nor has the unpublished roll which is of great assistance for those needing or wanting privacy for whatever reason.

  9. Tony Veitch 9
    15 September 2023 at 7:48 am

    The message is quite simple really: vote Greens or TPM as if your life depended on it!

    It does!

  10. PsyclingLeft.Always 10
    15 September 2023 at 8:26 am

    Nic Willis …feeling the heat. Hope that gets turned up…heaps.

    Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson started assailing Ms Willis over her costings in his opening remarks and kept hammering her on the point throughout the 90-minute debate.

    Ms Willis said National’s policies had been independently costed and audited and its workings were set out on pages 18 and 19 of its policy document — pages which Mr Robertson just happened to have on hand to brandish with the claim "there’s no calculations there".

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/willis-spot-over-foreign-home-buyer-tax-plan

    Nat and ACT need to be shown..for what they are…and where they would take NZ. For sure….a bad place

    • gsays 10.1
      15 September 2023 at 9:26 am

      James Shaw, who came across real well, repeatedly made the point that most folk don't care about the 'costings', they just want a tax cut.

      My 2 cents worth had Robertson, Seymour and Shaw performing well and Willis a tad poorly. Like 'that' class mate or younger sibling. Petty jibes, denying any contradictions and always playing catch up. Her saving grace was a non hostile crowd.

      • weka 10.1.1
        15 September 2023 at 9:41 am

        she was terrible, even putting aside the content. If a GP MP behaved like that I'd be seriously embarrassed for them. She looks like she's been schooled in aggro/deflect but can't carry it off that well and it was just wrong in that context.

        Good point about the crowd.

        • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1.1
          15 September 2023 at 12:07 pm

          I happened to be visiting Wellington some years back and was walking along Lambton Quay with a friend when Willis first entered politics and was campaigning. The friend went "OMG who would vote for her. I was at university with her and she was the most horrible person there"

          I've remembered that as her rise through politics has occurred and from my observation nothing has changed. The watch DVD to go to the movies comment just reinforced in for me and in this debate the commentary about Job Seekers from her just sealed it. Many remember the toxicity of the last National government to those on benefit.

          • weka 10.1.1.1.1
            15 September 2023 at 12:17 pm

            I'm really glad she's not National's leader.

            • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2023 at 4:14 pm

              TBH I don't think it much matters. The approach and attitude to beneficiaries will be at least as bad as last time and most likely worse.

              (Hot off the press I've just become aware of ACT's punitive policy for unwell and disabled on benefit).

              Reminder too that those on benefit always get zilch from tax cuts as it is paid at a net rate.

              Those on NZS do get a net payment increase as it is paid at a gross rate.

          • gsays 10.1.1.1.2
            15 September 2023 at 5:04 pm

            "Many remember the toxicity of the last National government to those on benefit."

            My Mum talks of this often. She was widowed relatively young and had worked her whole life.

            Whenever having to go into WINZ and the vibe, wait times, the borderline interrogation. Contrasted with the last decade. Winter energy payments et al and a seemingly massive cultural shift at the WINZ (Feilding branch) anyhow).

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.1.1.1.3
            15 September 2023 at 5:17 pm

            Yea that "real ice cream/movies" for her kids was such a fake act.

            And IMO Nic Willis gives off a potential "Ruthless" Ruth Richardson vibe.

            Having lived/worked through that period…I'd truly hate her inner Ruth to manifest….

            For all of us at the lower end of things.

    • Ngungukai 10.2
      15 September 2023 at 10:38 am

      NACT and ACT will be bad news for NZ>

    • Patricia Bremner 10.3
      15 September 2023 at 12:30 pm

      Nick Rockell has an excellent take on our sidebar. He outline "Cuts before Christmas" and shows what it means for The Public Service.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.3.1
        16 September 2023 at 7:39 am

        Nick is a good Writer…and sure has the measure of Ol' Nat Nic Willis.

        The more I learn about her..the more I get an …ominous feeling.

        As I, and others, have said that "real icecream and movies" blurt was so fake…..

        And …I can see her in a potential future..channelling her inner "Ruthless" Ruth Richardson. : (

        Fark that..we've been there. Those type are all : "Theres no gain without pain"

        Yea our pain..their gain !!

        Left Solidarity..we can beat them. We must !

  11. Ffloyd 11
    15 September 2023 at 9:15 am

    It a a pity that Jack Tame didn’t make more of the fact that NW stated categorically that their costings were in the handout given but when Grant Robertson showed that this was not true it was dropped. Jack should have taken that paper and verified to all of us watching that she had in fact lied. If this is shown that the information was there I will offer humble apologies. But I trust Grant to be right. They need to show their modelling. Not just give us assumptions. I believe Luxon and Willis are just parrots for the back room boys. A lot of their rhetoric is reminiscent of key himself. Willis was blown off the stage last night when she tried to go off script. Can’t wait to see luxon in debate with Prime Minister Hipkins. As long as Chris Hipkins keeps his cool and doesn’t respond to gotcha moments like ‘show us the money’ he will be great. ….Swipe left!

  12. Ad 12
    15 September 2023 at 9:45 am

    James Shaw didn't start in the right place. There is a strong and organised groundswell of Queenstown and Wanaka tourism businesses who truly get sustainability both as a minimum operating standard and as a necessary competitive advantage. Both its tourism entities and its airport are very clear about this direction.

    On the same day, Otago Uni staff had a big meeting about their financial future. Across the Otago region it is this institution that has the highest salaries and most productive employees, and many are getting restructured out. That's the economy to really debate.

    Also on the same day Damien O'Connor reminded a room full of farmers during a debate that the world does not owe farmers a living and the only way New Zealand farmers will thrive is if they make super-premium highly benchmarked foods that rely on high value not high volume. Again, the economy to really debate.

    National and Act will deliver a low-value low-regulated commodity economy that treats cheap imported labour and cheap exported blocks of cheese about the same. If anyone wants to see the result, look only to the collapse of the sheep and wool industry in the course of one decade. That is the economy to debate.

  13. Patricia Bremner 13
    15 September 2023 at 12:00 pm

    Nicola Willis will have tax cuts by Christmas. So she will gut The Public Service. Those families will be unemployed by Christmas

    I believe so called charities need to be taxed. Same for so called religions. The 311 families who put up$8million and $4million to buy this election, need to be taxed. Then we would have the money for tax adjustments without the cut and destroy approach of Nact.

    Plus I wonder if our PM knows that Luxon won a National debate prize….. so much for "the under dog." They lie as a reflex or to gain advantage.

    We were impressed by the clarity of James Shaw's points. Both Willis and Seymour spoke in management speak, and were unconvincing. Both lied by omission.

  14. Mike the Lefty 14
    15 September 2023 at 12:00 pm

    I must correct you on one major point.

    National and ACT don't say they want to reduce government spending per se, they say they want to eliminate "wasteful spending" and there is a big difference.

    To the NACTs, wasteful spending is any spending that doesn't immediately bring mega dollars into the pockets of investors, developers, entrepreneurs, and of course themselves as government. So wasteful spending is spending on benefits, transport subsidies, anything that Maori run, and critically – research and development (look how National took the guts out of R and D last time they were in government). In short, anything that takes time to realise the gains.

    The mayor of the tourist areas can look forward to generous NACT government donations for the next tourist megaplaza or sports complex. Got a plan to build a gondola that flies over a National Park natural wonderland, create a vast ski resort for rich Australians and Europeans, or land helicopters on the top of Mt Ruapehu? No problems. Got a plan to help the poor, the homeless or the sick? F….off, we're not interested.

    That is what you will get from the NACTS.

    • Patricia Bremner 14.1
      15 September 2023 at 12:38 pm

      I should have said cuts not tax cuts. Nicola is on record as saying 1500 jobs from the backroom must go.

      Nick Rockell has an excellent take on our sidebar. He outlines "Cuts before Christmas" and shows what it means for The Public Service.

      Well worth a read.yes imo

  15. Ffloyd 15
    15 September 2023 at 2:24 pm

    Maybe Willis and lux could start slashing wasteful spending in the public service sector by taking a healthy salary cut. You know, showing good will and solidarity and all that. Isn’t it us bottom feeders paying their wages?. Partially?

    • Barfly 15.1
      15 September 2023 at 3:02 pm

      Limousine Luxon taking a pay cut? It's not in his DNA my friend devil

    • Incognito 15.2
      15 September 2023 at 7:01 pm

      I sincerely doubt that they’re in it for the salaries. Their financial and other rewards, gains, and windfall will be elsewhere. Think capital gains. They’re most definitely not in it for us!

  16. Doomster Dump 16
    16 September 2023 at 11:03 am

    " We can change our system so that we both prevent climate catastrophe and adapt to what is already locked in. "

    What is locked in is climate catastrophe. The Earth is in open ended unstoppable heating. Back in 1990, 33 years ago they were saying we had 10 years to change to prevent disaster! What did the " World " do? We doubled down even tripled down!

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