National Spinners

Written By: - Date published: 3:30 pm, November 9th, 2008 - 91 comments
Categories: dpf, humour, national, scoundrels - Tags:

David Farrar wrote… “Funniest moment was talking to a few of John’s staff, and one of them asked whether their imminent transfer to the 9th floor meant they would get to take over The Standard. It was hilarious as they started fighting over who would be all-your-base and who would be Irish Bill etc”

Wow! That is really funny all right. These guys need to really learn what is spin and what is not. It looks as if they have come to believe the lies that WhaleOil tells about the site (and David spreads). I pay for the site. Our writers write on a voluntary basis outside of their work (which isn’t on the 9th floor). It is all in and always has been in our About. Either these fools are joking stupidly, or Key is employing credulous idiots. Either is a bit worrying in the staff advising the PM.

Well, I guess that we worried them as a channel that wasn’t susceptible to their charms. Guess what, they’re likely to get more worried over the next few years. I suspect that after everyone gets over their hangovers and campaigning exhaustion, that you will not like what they have to say. The Standard isn’t going away and nor are its posts and posters.

National – welcome to the era of cheap mass media. But of course you know that. Are Kiwiblog and WhaleOil now going to be run from the 9th floor after you move in, or from the National research unit as previously done?

91 comments on “National Spinners”

  1. Ianmac 1

    Iprent: Quite a compliment really that they even acknowledge your existence. Remember “they” have to live up to their promises. We just have to hold them to account and the papers will have to find something to write about but without Labour to blame, then who might become fodder? Let me think. Ummmm.

  2. Lew 2

    Lynn: Easy, it’s a nice play on a running joke/myth which is about to be permanently debunked, when you continue to operate despite Helengrad’s fall.

    L

    [lprent: I’m still pretty annoyed by it. It seems like a case of envy or of tall poppy syndrome. I think we mainly offend these dickheads because we are so damn successful. They appear to prefer to believe anything except that it is done by hard work and lot of brains. KB had better watch its rear view mirror.]

  3. sweetd 3

    Ianmac, actually the opposite. For the next term atleast, everything will be labours fault. After all, just a few days ago, I was hearing how labour were still having to fix problems caused by when national was last in office. What good for the goose etc…

  4. Felix 4

    You mean National are going to complain that they still have to fix what the last National govt screwed up?

    Makes sense, they’re keeping all Labour’s policies after all.

    They are still keeping them, aren’t they?

  5. RedLogix 5

    KB had better watch its rear view mirror.

    KB has really just lost it’s most of it’s reason for existence. Farrar is a rabble stirrer, dog-whistler and spinmeister; he simply has no capacity for actually standing up and defending anything of actual substance.

    No doubt the sewer will continue to serve a useful public service drainage function; but it’s all downhill to the outfall for Farrar from here on in.

  6. To have fallen for:

    – Bush’s lies about Iraq
    – “private business is always more efficient than government”
    – “Markets always deliver the best outcomes”
    – The War on Terrorism (as though you can defeat a noun)

    ….isn’t being a credulous idiot a prerequisite?

    The characteristics I have found reliablly present in conversations with people who hold such views is their faith overrules reason, their belief makes evidence irrelevant.

    If someone they trust tells hem something, they would never think to verify it.

    Credulous. Good word.

    “Labour pays for the Standard”……They KNOW it. The truth doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter many or most of you voted Green.

    Welcome to the new dawn.

  7. Santi 7

    Poor lprent. I share your pain…..not!

    Aren’t you man enough to take it on the chin? Grow up!

  8. mike 8

    RL – all this negativity, and just after it cost you guys the election.

    We’ll have lots to talk about @ KB as the left implodes, the bodies start piling up and dirty laundry is aired.

    As you know socialists get extremely nasty when it turns to custard – should be great!

  9. RedLogix 9

    mike,

    As I stated, I’m quite certain KB will continue it’s sanitary function, diverting filth that would otherwise overflow into the streets.

    So yes enjoy your little ‘chats’… just don’t expect anyone with a sense of smell to participate.

  10. Jimbo 10

    Steve – your two economic statements are expressed in a way that most sensible people don’t agree with. You must know that you’re misrepresenting the other side’s position.

    Event the most fervent free-marketer acknowledges that market failure exists and that government’s legitimate role is to act wherever there is market failure. Replace “always” with “ususally”, and I’d sign up to your points 2 and 3.

    As to points 1 and 4, it’s crazy to suggest that this election was won or lost on foreign policy. It was hardly mentioned in campaigning and none of the polls have showing voters give a toss.

    This election was about “trust” (as mandated by HC) and the state of the economy (which is what people are desparately worried about).

    The NZ public has chosen a hugely successfull international banker to help lead us in a time of unprecedent economic turmoil. The evidence of Key’s abilities is there for all to see, unless to you chose to wilfully blind yourself to it or you don’t understand the significance of leading the international currency desk at a place like Merrrill Lynch.

    Yet you’ve decided that everyone else is naive…?

  11. Johnty Rhodes 11

    Liberation from Helengrad.
    Even South Auckland voted Party Vote National. Must have been the Iceman and Inga effect.
    Graet night at Sky City last night, best party I have been to this year.

    As you say, keep them honest, but remember the mess we have been left to clean up, same as 1990.

    Go JK, the Nats and ACT. A good step to the right is what we nned.

    [lprent: Ah the strange troll pops up again. From its apparent inability to read simple numbers (National either dropped in South Auckland or remained the same), I starting to think that it is in fact the long lost ‘Rob’. Who else has that level of blind faith in what they say is correct. I need more data for the troll emulator, this helps]

  12. Pascal's bookie 12

    Jimbo, the geniuses at Merrill Lynch, destroyed Merrill Lynch. Presumably through not understanding something, unless you think it was deliberate.

    Obama is raising income taxes on the wealthy, moving back to a more progressive tax structure. He is not renewing GWB’s tax cuts on capital gains.

    “Event the most fervent free-marketer acknowledges that market failure exists and that government’s legitimate role is to act wherever there is market failure.”

    False, talk to libertarians, who are the most fervent free marketeers and you will find the acknowledge no such legitimacy.

    Consider Accident Compensation. This is one area where our ‘no fault’ scheme is recognised to be best practice, yet National want to change it. Why? Faith based belief that partial privatisation will somehow make it more efficient. They have no evidence for this, and PWC have provided strong evidence against. Our system works better than any other. Moving towards the worse system makes no sense without a faith based belief in markets.

  13. One does wonder how many of them are so caught up in their fantasy land they then start believing the propaganda. Too some extent they have been successful in that The Standard is usually referred to as a Labour aligned, linked, supporting ect blog.

    There’s really the issue of credibility, behind an online pseudonym any one can accuse any one of anything, sure we know David Farrar and Cameron Slater’s names (he sure was pissed off when his name was publicized though!), but as seen with Slater being set up a few months ago, they are willing to believe anything, so long as they can obfuscate sufficiently should it all blow up, and somehow blame the left. Plausible deniability is the name of the game!

    Then there is their little echo chamber of blogs, Whale Oil, Kiwiblog, No minister, The Hive ect, I guess the point of repeating the lies back and forward between each other is two fold. With each further hyperbolic reference they can bounce things back and forward further developing things into grand conspiracies. Secondly to give the impression to “outsiders” that these things actually have happened.

    Two additional things that concern me are Matthew Hotton’s involvement in the blogosphere and the possible involvement of the taxpayer funded National Party Research Unit. Matthew Hotton descending to the level of kiwiblog and even nearing that of whale oil is worrying because with his position as a columnist in such widely circulated papers it gives his opinion much more legitimacy in the eyes of non political audience, without the context that the right wings blogs would give it if it was published there.

    The possible involvement of the National Party Research Unit worries me for a couple of reasons. I don’t think its an appropriate use of tax payers money, and blogs should certainly come clean if they are using such information, and preferably explain how they are going to refund the tax payer for the time spent doing it.

    Then theres the case of “Steady Eddy”. Assuming Robinsod has his information right, on one hand I’m wanting to say that he should either publish the name or go to the police about it, then on the other hand I see that its just sour grapes on my part. I didn’t think Kees Keizer should have been outed, so I guess I can not justify “Steady Eddy” being outed, at very least I guess Slater could be honest about where he is getting the information from.

    What really upsets me the most is how little traction The Standard gets. Maybe its just me coming from a family of scientists, but to me, the graphs, numbers, facts and figures that you guys have come out with are pretty bloody damming for the right and pretty conclusive for the left. It seems though too some people that statistics on a topic are just another factor to consider, or at worst wrong.

    Bloody good work on you guys part though, keep it all up. There will be plenty of battles to fight over the next three years, and there is a good opening for a watchdog on the coming National government (cause sure as hell the MSM aren’t going to be doing it if their performance up until now is anything to go by). I guess the key to good blogging and retaining relevance the way that kiwiblog has not managed to is operating as a watchdog, not a tell tale 6 year old.

    Mike.

  14. sux2bu 14

    To ensure a smooth transition, please hand in your admin logons for The Standard at the same time as your master hands over the keys to the 9th floor. Thanking you all in advance for your co-operation.
    [lprent: I take it you can’t read. ]

  15. Ianmac 15

    Killinginthenameof. Well said. You say what I struggle to say. Sooner or later the MSM will use their thirst for sensation and half-truths and go searching for new copy. Who will have to account for themselves next? Hoping.

  16. Rex Widerstrom 16

    It’ll be interesting to see whether Kiwiblog manages to function as a fora for debate (and despite the virtriol expressed above, I’ve had intelligent debates there just as I have done here). While it’s true David’s posts have been muted in their criticism of National on those occasions he’s diverted from the party line, he has allowed comment highly critical of National from me and from others, without censorship and without banning. I should note that Lynn has never moderated my criticisms of Labour and the Greens here, either.

    Those who chracterise David as “a rabble stirrer, dog-whistler and spinmeister” are indulging in exactly the kind of projection they rightly chastise others for in their allegations that The Standard is “run from the ninth floor” etc etc.I know David, and that’s an utterly unfair depiction of him.

    Has it ever occurred to you that David believes in the ideas and policies he espouses, just as the posters at The Standard believe in what they write?

    And that while, in a small town like Wellington, gossip and information sharing is rife amongst those of like mind, no evil, mysterious overlords control the content of either blog?

    Instead perhaps you should look at it like this: While I don’t believe The Standard was “run from the ninth floor” I believe it was read on the ninth floor, and listened to in a way that, say, Kiwiblog was not. I also think all the party strategists are starting to wake up to the idea that kites can be flown in the blogosphere to test them before launch in the broader media, so the influence flows both ways.

    Thus if I had what I thought was a valid criticism of the way Labour were heading, I’d express it here in the hope that perhaps it might just spark an idea in the mind of someone who mattered. With a change of government, the reverse will now apply.

    So – and with all due respect to The Standard – while it’s easier perhaps to engage in a fora which is little more than an echo chamber of your own views, if you truly want to challenge the ideas floating round the government, you shouldn’t overlook Kiwiblog as a place in which to do so.

    And most importantly of all if, instead of retreating to our furthermost outposts and indulging in a “me too” fest surrounded those who we know will agree with us, we engage with those who do not, we will arrive at far better solutions.

    [And no, I’m not being paid to do PR for DPF, Kiwiblog, or anyone else relevant to this debate 😛 ]

  17. Oh PS to above,
    I always have a chuckle to myself when they run off on their Clark (with 2 k’s) the communist dictator coming to take over New Zealand lines. With KiwiSaver, KiwiRail, KiwiBank, what name would they be appropriating for The Standard? KiwiBlog of course! 😈

  18. Janet 18

    Appropriate that National chose the gamblers’ palace for their election HQ.

  19. RedLogix 19

    (and despite the virtriol expressed above, I’ve had intelligent debates there just as I have done here).

    I first started blogging at KB about 5 years ago and yes intelligent life did exist back then, but about 18 months ago I just could not stand the stench anymore.

    I offer you the recent “By popular demand here is the video of Helen Clark falling flat on her face” post. The comment thread on that was downright creepy even by KB standards. Or almost any comment by Redbaiter.

    As for vitriol, I was being downright polite compared to the routine drek that passes for discussion at KB… I should be flattered I guess but why hold me to a standard you do not apply to others?

    Besides, Farrar is certainly charming and articulate enough in person, but that does not hold him back from playing to the nutjob crowd like a fiddle.

  20. Crybabyhelenloser 20

    What a wonderful day.

  21. sweetd 21

    Killinginthenameof

    “What really upsets me the most is how little traction The Standard gets. Maybe its just me coming from a family of scientists, but to me, the graphs, numbers, facts and figures that you guys have come out with are pretty bloody damming for the right and pretty conclusive for the left.”

    I suggest it is because you come from a family of scientists that you consider most people to be reasoned and well researched. This is not the case, most people just want the answer, any answer, not all the research that went before it. From a sales point of view, sell the sizzle, not the sausage. Show people the benefits (to them), not the features. Give it to them in small easily remembered take away packages (sound bites).

    That is why all the stats, graphs, charts and numbers amounts to a very small hill of beans if nobody is prepared to read or take the time to listen. Welcome to the age and times we live.

    Either change or die.

  22. Lew 22

    Sweetd: I don’t often agree with you, but this is one of those times when you’ve got it dead right.

    L

  23. Quoth the Raven 23

    The Standard will surely make it to the number one spot now.

    Rex Widerstrom – Do those intelligent discussions include the ones your mates had about the death of Braun Elwert?

  24. gomango 24

    Pascals Bookie:

    Quick quiz.

    1. What is the current asset/liability position of ACC?
    2. How much has it deteriorated over the last 2 years?
    3. When does ACC expect to be fully funded (and really, not just what they say i.e., do some sums)?

    Go and read their last report – you won’t like the answers to those questions.

    Don’t quote the pwc report either – I’ve both commissioned and written similar reports – the most important task for the writer is to determine what the commissioner wants to achieve.

    Personally, I am in the camp that says ACC should remain publicly owned (as does National), but in competition with the private sector. There are several ways that the government could set up the system so ACC provides both better service and retains a competitive advantage (which i posted elsewhere on this site).

    But don’t get carried away saying it is the envy of the world. If it remained a workers compensation (as originally envisioned and designed) it may well be the best system in the world – but extending it beyond the work place created a monster. It also created disincentives for the insured to moderate and take responsibility for risky behaviour. Our current scheme is way beyond what the woodhouse principles described back in 1967.

    The PWC report is worth a read as it clearly is a light report, a puff piece – little data, lots of assumptions, lots “we assume”, “it is likely”, “comparatively” and “we from a view.” It’s not a Treasury quality report. Even in the part of the scheme where the argument is strongest – Employers Account – the ringing endorsement is this:

    “Comparisons elsewhere fail to establish any systematic
    difference in remaining overall scheme cost levels between
    government monopoly and private underwriting schemes.”

    I see that as an argument neither for nor against, yet comments like that allow pwc to affirm a “strong view”. The people that pay for ACC (employers, workers, road users etc) are paying a social subsidy for services that rightfully belong in the MSD or other departments (compensation for the effects of crime, rugby, tourist injuries, injuries outside the workplace etc).

  25. Jimbo – what do you think of the fact that Cameron Slater admitted he and DPF maintain a relationship with the National Party research unit? Are you not concerned that the detailed smear posts on Slater’s blog that were then echoed on Kiwiblog are likely to have come from taxpayer-funded digging?

    Have a look at this:

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/?q=content/vegas-update-clark-tells-more-lies

    And tell me you’re comfortable funding it…

    Oh and for the record Key was probably not a “hugely successfull [sic] international banker” as they don’t tend to transfer those folk to the Aussie rats-and-mice branch. In fact I suspect he probably had a few too many deals go bad to be awarded that prize… But you wouldn’t know that because you don’t know anything about international finance do you? How provincial…

  26. Adam 26

    This reminds me of Billy Joel’s song Movin’ Out.

  27. sweetd 27

    Sod, give a rest, the election is over.

    However, to rebut your points, didn’t the labour party research unit travel with mike williams over to melborne to sift through papers looking for dirt on key looking for evidence that fitted with clarks self proclaimed view that he couldn’t be trusted.

    Secondly, I kindly suggest you re read your copy of the bio on key as printed in the sunday papers a few months ago, that explains why he moved to australia. It saves you having to make up amusing stories.

  28. didn’t the labour party research unit travel with mike williams over to melborne to sift through papers looking for dirt on key

    No – I looked into that and somewhat ironically I traced it down to another smear spread by Whale et al.

    Oh and sweetd? The 2011 election campaign began today…

  29. deemac 29

    they may or may not be credulous idiots – but they are venal enough to work for the ones with the money. So they have to say whatever will make the rich even richer. They can’t imagine anyone doing stuff out of belief or principles, hence the accusations against The Standard. Which speaks volumes about their motivation.

  30. Rex Widerstrom 30

    RedLogix: The “Helen Clark falling over” thread was puzzling (from the point of view of David’s publishing it – I guess he has a sense of humour that finds pratfalls funny) and disgusting (from the perspective of some of the comments). DPF has a much looser comment moderation policy and/or has less time to moderate than does The Standard, which results in the immature, schoolboyish element of the right commenting and getting through.

    I’m not talking Redbaiter (who’s in a class of his own, and with whom I have managed to debate) but the likes of a “Grant S”, who recently decided to insult me and then threaten me with a series of comments which included (I kid you not) “bring it on, c**t” (and my asking if he wrote it while flinging a half-empty beer bottle and tearing off a stained t-shirt did nothing to induce self-refection). The topic of the thread – Sarah Palin’s fitness for office; hardly likely to induce bloodlust in a balanced mind.

    If that sort of juvenile breast-beating occurred at The Standard I have no doubt Lynn would ban the perpetrator.

    However, that’s not debate, and the likes of “Grant S” are not representative of the majority of commenters, any more than do the idiots Lynn bans from here.

    QtR: The Braun Elwert thread was a good example of what I’m talking about. A handful of morons made some inappropriate comments and the majority of people told them so. Some went so far as to be complimenatry of Helen Clark, most were sympathetic to her.

    So in short, the far right seems to attract a small cluster of macho f***wits and DPF’s looser moderation policy lets them through, but you can’t judge Kiwiblog based on its worst denizens.

  31. RedLogix 31

    Over and again we see the right wingers displaying the same depressingly limited insight. Because their intellectual and moral horizons do not extend beyond their own small and personal identities, they repeatedly make the mistake of thinking that everyone else must also behave just like they do.

    In this case they know that Farrar/Slater are closely and intimately associated with the National party on a number of levels, personally and financially. Ergo, The Standard must be the same. And no matter the evidence presented they will not, indeed cannot, change their fixed thinking.

    Although this under-developed behaviour is annoying and sometimes quite damaging, it is also fortunately self-limiting.

  32. Carol 32

    I thought it was interesting to hear some comments on blogs on TVNZ 7 last night (Backbencehers, I think, but could have been Media7 – they’ve merged a bit in my mind as the day has progressed). Some right MPs said they read the right wing blogs regularly (Stephen Franks & Heather Roy & maybe some others, if I recall correctly.) They said they read Whaleoil & Kiwiblog. Some said they only read the right wing ones, but a couple (including Heather Roy I think?) said she also reads the left blogs (could have included The Standard?) to see what the opposition are saying.

    I haven’t ever been to Whaleoil’s blog, but based on it’s reputation, I was surprised that right wing MPs give it any credibility.

  33. sweetd 33

    Robinsod

    “Oh and sweetd? The 2011 election campaign began today ”

    You made a typo, should be 2017.

  34. Carol 34

    Why is the comment I just posted in moderation? I can only assume it’s because I mention a particular blogger. But I was only reporting comments about it on TVNZ 7 last night. 🙁

    [lprent: Yep usually a sign to a link-pimping troll using this site for free advertising. It is auto-moderation]

  35. RedLogix 35

    Rex,

    Your point about judging KB by its worst denizens is almost fair enough. But to suggest there is some kind of “worst denizen” equivalence between The Standard and KB is downright silly.

    In all the NZ blogs I’ve seen there is at least a 20:1 ratio of juvenile rightie to leftie behaviour. There is really only one regular at TS who is routinely OTT and that is randal, and at least he tries to make an art form of it.

    Contrast that with the dozen or so (I cannot be arsed counting) right wing trolls who have popped in here today, with the sole intention of a spot of gratuitous gloating. Most of the regulars have decently ignored them, but today I’m feeling less generous than usual so I’ve been giving back more or less as good as they have been giving. I figure someone has to do the dirty work and it’s my turn today.

  36. sweetd 36

    RedLogix

    nice attempt at the moral high ground award.

    When you wrestle with pigs, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

    Blogs, much like people themselves have those they agree with, and those they disagree with. I don’t think any one side is better that the other; the only thing different is your point of view.

  37. lprent would you consider an instant bannig policy on those who continue to pedal this myth? It’s getting tiring and you shouldn’t have to answer this question as many times as you have.

    [lprent: Nope, too many common words]

  38. forgetaboutthelastone 38

    anyone see the one news summary of Helen Clark’s career? They really put the boot in. They had Mike Moore criticising her a couple of times, even Don Brash got to call her a ‘bad prime minister’. I heard something about Maggy Thatcher having nothing on HC – fucking outrageous!

    After all the things the HC Labour Government has done for me, my family and friends, our communities…

    no wonder they think the Standard is run by the Labour Party – you are one of the few effective voices from the left in the media. It’s pretty suspicious when you are the only ones out there – especially if you are a paranoid righty.

  39. Rex Widerstrom 39

    Red Logix:

    But to suggest there is some kind of “worst denizen’ equivalence between The Standard and KB is downright silly.

    Oh, I wasn’t doing that, and I’ve said as much to DPF. While Kiwiblog has its Redbaiter, Murray and others, and The Standard has its Robinsod, randal and others, I find them at worst entertaining and at best they both usually have some insight to offer, albeit couched in sometimes OTT terms.

    But only on Kiwiblog have I been defamed and, now, threatened (the particular sad case I mentioned above even went so far as to send emails demanding I “name the time and place, wanker”. I was tempted to respond that I had no wish to be blamed for what was clearly pre-existing brain damage).

    To be fair to David, as soon as I’ve pointed out the defamation he’s removed it (but not the threats), and “demerited” the commenter. 30 points in the instance I cited. And to be fair to the majority of commenters, they’ve jumped all over the perpetrators in no uncertain terms.

    Frankly I prefer Lynn’s tougher line on stupidity but it’s DPF’s blog to run as he sees fit. Interestingly my only other experience of such abuse was on Tim Blair’s blog, so it definitely seems to be a small coterie of right wingers who are demented in ways the left are not.

    So no, no “worst denizen” equivalence implied, since no one at The Standard has yet engaged me in a way I haven’t seen since I stopped moonlighting as a bouncer 15 or so years ago. Or maybe I’m just not being provocative enough over here? 😀

  40. Carol 40

    Thanks, Iprent.

    I don’t go to KB of WH (don’t want to go in to moderation again 🙂 ] because I have seen a few quotes from their blogs/commenters that are visciously misogynistic and sometimes homophobic as well. I’ve never seen anything like that here (much thanks to the moderators). Even if those kind of comments are not very common on those other blogs, I just don’t want to have to experience them. They are upsetting and indicate a pretty poor attitude, especially to women in power/politics. That’s why I was very surprised that some right wing women policiticians visit them regularly.

  41. bobo 41

    It was the final nail in Helen Clark’s coffin in the TV1 summing up of her political career tonight they only had comments from her enemies Mike Moore and Don Brash which is like getting Roger Douglas to perform David Lange’s eulogy.. Pure class TV1 … lets hope National cut some bureaucracy and fat from the bloated TVNZ news & current affairs department pronto.

  42. Crybabyhelenloser 42

    Do you want a box of tissues Carol?

  43. Lew 43

    bobo: Don’t let your knee jerk such that it kicks a media agency which is already under-resourced.Unless you want a return to an effective TV news monopoly…

    L

  44. bobo 44

    I’m sorry it’s not a kneejerk reaction I have thought TV1 has dumbed down so much there’s not alot left for years. Weather and sport take up over half the news hour, but its been going the same way as the BBC , sexed up and dumbed downed infotainment, take Closeup for example which is just fluff most nights makes Paul Holmes show look heavy weight. I’d rather see TVNZ TV1 channel go into the freeview TVNZ7 format but I guess they need the heavy advertising. Whatever happened to any actual political interview / debate show on a thursday night at 8.30 slot, no wonder politicians get such an easy ride these days. Am I asking for too much from a multimillion dollar news agency who seems to worry more about set design than content ?

  45. Kinoy001 45

    The summing up of Helen Clarks political career tonight on One was an utter disgrace. How could that reporter get away with putting a report like that together.

    3 years of hell coming up….

    over and out… im off to auz.

  46. Jimbo 46

    Robinsod and Pascal – sorry guys but I think you’re reaching.

    1. John Key – time to acknowledge fairly that he has some sklls:

    The world economy has been brought to its knees by the banks trading complicated derivative products based on lenders giving mortgages to people in America who could not afford them.

    John Key did no more “bring down Merrill Lynch” than you or I. John Key was given a task by Merill Lynch shareholders and management. He created so much value for them that they remunerated him to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

    I’ve never worked with the guy. Neither have you. But c’mon, I’m prepared to accept that he’s porbably an extremely competent banker based on the undisputed track record. In summary, John Key is a smart and competent NZer. Take some comfort from the fact that, even if he’s not Labour, he’s a high-achiever who’s used to success.

    He’s not a fraud – time to give up the attempts to prove him as such.

    2. Cameron Slater/Whaleoil

    To be honest, I think he’s a bit of a tool (based solely on the little I’ve seen on his blog and some of the dirty tricks). All sides have tosspots in their ranks, though. Political debate has fallen away in this country – every Whaleoil allegation will be countered by a “Williams muckraking” response. All of it is unhelpful, but it’s probably evenly spread amongst the two main parties, no?

    3. Left/Right

    My real issue is each side approaching political debate, and each side’s perspectives, fairly.

    Even if you’re correct that extreme libertarians don’t believe the market ever fails – so what!? Extreme libertarians are no more in this new government than marxist socialists were in the last.

    It’s unhelpful to (1) mischaracterise the opposition’s policies in the hope you’ll scare their supporters away, and (2) assume that voters who’ve gone for the other guy are naive, mistaken or not smart enough exercise their democratic right to chose.

    National took a long time to learn these lessons. How long will Labour take?

    [lprent: On 2. No Whale is pretty unique as a bottom feeder. He has been consistently and knowingly lying for a long time. It is pretty evident during the campaign that he has been used as a smear portal by the national and act parties. The stuff that they couldn’t handle but which they wanted in the public domain has been pushed through there. Labour came late to the practice, and generally wasn’t that ept at it. However I’m sure that will be corrected now. After all it worked for National and Act….. What goes around comes around. However it would be as part of a wider range of strategies.]

  47. Carol 47

    Kinoy001, I have had moments since last night when I started thinking about leaving the country again to live elsewhere. Part of me thinks that’s kind of cowardice. But I could do with more permanent work than I have right now, and I did look today to see if anything was going in Aussie in my field. If I found something, I’d be quite happy to leave.

    I didn’t watch TV One news tonight – thank goodness by the sound of it. The populist news media has become a real problem. We could do with some strong and imaginative protests to highlight their shoddiness and manipulative political bias.

  48. Jimbo – I never claimed Key brought down Marryll Lynch – I suggested he may have been moved to Aussie because he wasn’t that good at his job…

    Carol – I just watched the TVNZ piece and it was shithouse. Pissed myself laughing over Brash claiming her achievements “left him cold”… Like he was ever warm! Ha!

  49. Kinoy001 49

    Carol:
    I think protest would be a great idea. Me and my partner and a few other people were discussing the media today and how it is so unfair and bias. We only hope that it starts to change once the nats are in place and can be attacked. John key got 50% of media covereage through the campaing and Helen clark 27%. Those facts clearly show the bias.
    So annoyed right now.

  50. max 50

    Kiwiblog is fun to read. Yours is spin. First time on the site, not liking it and not coming back unless you make it fun.

    [lprent: Looks like a probable troll – please stay away. If you don’t then read the Policy ]

  51. mike 51

    “I’d be quite happy to leave.”

    I’d be quite happy to drive you to the airport carol, perhaps we could fill up a bus with all your friends as well. Just trying to help 🙂

  52. QoT 52

    One can only assume a humble and sincere apology will be forthcoming from all the conspiracy-peddlers once The Standard and its writers continue on much as they’ve always done – oh bugger, sorry, I was expecting a modicum of integrity from the Right. Clearly last night’s vodka shots have yet to wear off.

  53. burt 53

    lprent

    I don’t think you are being very adult about this. Taking over the standard is quite a funny thing to say given the background of allegations and denials. I don’t think so soon after the significant shocks of the last few days is a good time to post gripe threads. That was pre-election mode, it’s time to establish what you guys stand for without the shackles of defending 9 years of Labour under Clark and Muppet Cullen. The future is forward and there is a new party leader and deputy leader to elect.

    If you guys are independent then lets hear your views on the punters throwing their hats in the ring for the job.

    [lprent: burt – if it is a joke then it is old and tired. Either way as far as I’m concerned it is an attack on the site and I treat it as such. It doesn’t matter when it is done it is still straight unadulterated lying by a malicious pack of dickheads.
    burt – this is pre-election mode. It is less than a 1000 days until the next election. Frankly Key talks the talk, but I have a strong suspicion that he can’t walk the walk. One has to assume the worst from whatever winds up as being the government.]

  54. Pascal's bookie 54

    Jimbo, I fully acknowledge that Key has many skills.

    What I question is his policy agenda, I simply don’t know what it is, and I have been following closely.

    I find it intriguing that he has campaigned as a ‘centrist’, when he was going to be Don Brash’s Minister of Finance, and very recently described many of the centrist programmes we have in place as communism. I guess that would an example of the fear mongering and misrepresentation you don’t like.

    He has offered no insight in to why he has changed his mind other then “we lost an election”. This does not inspire me with any confidence that when he says ‘centrist and pragmatic’ he means what many of the people who voted for him think by those terms. Those terms are movable feasts as it were, and very subjective.

    My point about Merrill Lynch was not that he caused it to fail. I was saying that the fact that he did well at ML tells us nothing about his wisdom. People that have done even better than Key at ML have failed spectacularly. So doing well at Merrill Lynch is not an indicator of special knowledge for saving the economy as you imply. It’s at best agnostic.

    There are high achieving successful people in all political parties. The thing is what do they believe? What ends will they be driving for? Do they have a well thought out, or even a consistent, philosophy for approaching problems? These are the questions I ask myself. Competence, intelligence, ambition and wanting the best for all NZ’s are a baseline for me, not a threshold beyond which I just ‘trust’.

    I will remain watching with interest.

  55. Chris G 55

    Rex: “So in short, the far right seems to attract a small cluster of macho f***wits and DPF’s looser moderation policy lets them through, but you can’t judge Kiwiblog based on its worst denizens.”

    I dont believe its a small portion of right wingers, go look at user comments on yahoo.co.nz in the politics pages. Go look at user comments on stuff and the herald website.

    Best call:

    Robinson: “The 2011 election campaign began today..” Awseome

  56. burt 56

    The oppositions job is to oppose the govt, not simply to be reelected itself. Remember how governance is supposed to work, hopefully the new leader will lead rather than run a smear campaign purely for electoral victory.

  57. Razorlight 57

    The accusations have been made and the individual posters actually named by Whale. You claim he is wrong and I accept that but many do not.

    The only way you can end the speculation and rumours about who the various posters are and where they work is to rebut Whale’s bleating. Not by saying he is wrong but by saying who you all are. Until you do that he will keep up his crusade and your denials will not mean much to the right unless you out yourselves.

    I don’t expect you to and dont actually believe there is any need for you to but it the only way you can silence Slater.

    [lprent: Read the About. There is a reason that we neither confirm or deny various people identities. I guess that you’re just going to have to live with it.
    Frankly I couldn’t give a flying fuck about Slater. The moron prefers to lie. If you told him the truth he wouldn’t be able to recognize it. However I think that we will report more on Nationals smear portal.]

  58. Carol 58

    Kinoy001

    I think protest would be a great idea. Me and my partner and a few other people were discussing the media today and how it is so unfair and bias. We only hope that it starts to change once the nats are in place and can be attacked. John key got 50% of media covereage through the campaing and Helen clark 27%. Those facts clearly show the bias.

    Do you have a link to the research that produced these statistics? This could be useful for a support for any protests.

    Throughout the election campaign I was thinking about focusing my blog on monitoring the media, the way it reports news and highlighting biases. The only reservation I have is that I may find it difficult to keep posting to it regularly. I was thinking to start this in a week or so, when I may have a little more time. I have a blog I started, but I never got beyond doing a couple of posts. I find it easier to drop into other people’s blogs when I have the time – seems like less of a time commitment.

    But maybe I could make a start later this weeek. And I could start by posting evidence of any research that produces statistics on the media, whether they show biases to the left or the right.

    I know a lot of left & right blogs post on what they perceive as biases from time to time, but I think it would be a good idea to have one where all the info, evidence and comments/critiques are in one place.

  59. infused 59

    wow take a joke. Seriously. You guys are way too serious.

  60. Razorlight – who are you?

  61. Jimbo

    John Key did not bring down Merrill Lynch but he did follow orders and he did sell derivatives. Not all derivatives are “bad” but the kind he sold were. He was the managing director of debt in 1999 and actually mentions credit derivatives in this interview.

    In this <a href=’interview he told us that the products that caused the subprime crisis were only developed in 2004-2005 after. This a lie. According to this timeline Fanny mae and Freddy mac started to sell subprime mortgages in 1997 and in 1998 the subprime market was sky rocketing and the housing bubble was well on it’s way.
    It is the derivatives of this bubble that were sold by assholes like JK in as early as 1998 which are now deflating and will cause this planet to go into a depression which will make the “great” depression look like a walk in the park.

    In 2002 Warren Buffet was on record as saying that derivatives were a weapon of mass destruction, the FBI wanted to investigate the spiralling mortgage fraud in 2003 and was told not to and the bubble was at it’s peak in 2004- and 2005.

    So why do you think JK is telling this little porky? Right in one. Because if Kiwi’s were to find out before the elections that JK was actually part of the problem they would not have voted for him.

    Was this info available to the press? Oh, shit yeah. Did they check it out? Shit no. Why not? Because our media are owned by the same assholes that are going to , with the help of their little foot soldier JK, rob this country blind in let’s say the first 100 days of National being in power.

    Be prepared to see everything bought by oversees interests, the black sands and the seabed mined, healthcare gutted, school buildings being build by what would otherwise be bankrupt building companies while the school system it self is gutted, international private prison companies being invited to make money of other peoples misery etc.

    This country will be bankrupt within 6 months because of JK serving other rich prick’s greed. Well done National voters, well done. You really do deserve everything you are going to get.

    And this is one of those times I’m really not going to be happy when I say I told you so because this beautiful country will be destroyed and we will not be able to rebuild it in generations to come. And all because angry narrow minded Kiwi’s did not use their brains and let their basest instincts rule.

    Helen Clark needs to go and we need change, yeah right. (And no I did not vote for Helen)

  62. infused 62

    travellerev you’re very boring.

  63. Santi 63

    “In 2002 Warren Buffet was on record as saying that derivatives were a weapon of mass destruction..”

    Hear, hear: the Dutch Einstein goes once again with her harebrained conspiracy theories. I suggest you wear a 3-inch thick tin foil hat to cure yourself from your obsessions.

  64. Infused,

    feel free to ignore me.

    Santi,

    Prick

  65. higherstandard 65

    Eve I disagree with you wholeheartedly but as a suggestion why don’t you take the summer off and come back in 6 months – if your predictions come to pass then you can tell everyone “I told you so”

  66. forgetaboutthelastone 66

    Carol – that’s a great idea. I have had a similar idea in fact. Perhaps we could combine forces. If you are interested email me at:

    forgetaboutthelastone@gmail.com

  67. Akldnut 67

    mike if you were really trying to help it would be you and your mates on the bus.
    Just trying to help 😉

  68. Lew 68

    Kinoy: “Me and my partner and a few other people were discussing the media today and how it is so unfair and bias. We only hope that it starts to change once the nats are in place and can be attacked. John key got 50% of media covereage through the campaing and Helen clark 27%. Those facts clearly show the bias.”

    I presume you’re referring to Babak Bahador’s preliminary findings on the campaign coverage. If so, you’re leaving out an important detail: while Key was overrepresented in coverage overall, he was much more strongly overrepresented in negative coverage.You can try to run an argument here that any exposure is good exposure (and to an extent I agree), but it’s dishonest to leave out the matter of polarity. After all, `any exposure’ didn’t help Winston Peters.

    Sod/bobo/etc: I didn’t see the One News coverage you’re referring to, but it sounds like an ugly setup. But actually, One news is doing fairly well given the massive fail in management ranks which resulted in the budget, staff and resourcing cuts. Understand that news is hard; few people do it well, and the only route to more funding (and therefore more options) is Bums On Seats – and fair crack to them if they do what they can to attract more.

    L

  69. Lew 69

    FATLO/Carol: I do this sort of research (for my day job, and at university). I’m not really interested in trying to prove an ideological conspiracy in the media, but I can give you some advice on how to design and conduct your research if you want it to have the faintest shred of credibility. Email me – lewis dot feayn at org – if you like.

    L

  70. Phil 70

    Trav/Santi,

    “In 2002 Warren Buffet was on record as saying that derivatives were a weapon of mass destruction”

    That’s just plain wrong.

    Buffet has for a long time, certainly since before 2002, raised concern about the increasingly complex and layered derivatives that pepper the market. Simple derivatives (Forwards, Futures, Put/Call options etc. even RMBS and the like) are not complex. In and of themselves, they’re not weapons either.

  71. Ianmac 71

    It seems to me that papers like the Herald have a thirst for attacking the Government of the day. Like Dracula the thirst must be slaked so it will be interesting to see if in due course the feeding frenzy will focus on National and John Key. Without Winston who else could they go for?

  72. coge 72

    Maybe it’s time for the left to conduct an objective electoral post-mortem. A lot of blame I can see, is being apportioned at exterior factors beyond your control. Maybe an examination of things closer to home would be more useful. It’s very clear something failed with the Labour campaign. It was overwhelmingly negative, & the public was constantly reminded of this. Ultimately the negativeness served to sully Labour’s brand. Dark advertising of solo mum Mary bombarding prime time, the two Johns, Williams tax payer funded sojourn offshore to dig dirt. “The secret taper”, indulging in tactics little better than an attempt at political assasination, all damaged Labour’s branding with the public. I could see no articulation of anything positive. Constant denigration of John Key & the National party was all we got, & from what I’m reading that’s still the case.

    Maybe a refreshing new approach would benefit Labour at this critical time.

  73. Phil,

    As you said before and I agree with you derivatives in and of themselves are not a WMD. They’ve been around for centuries to help people deflect risk.

    The trade in derivatives I’m referring to is an aggressive and speculative means of making huge amounts of money in a very short time without concern for the fallout after the bubble bursts.

    In fact the banks collapsing does not concern the big bankers they served their purpose and made them fabulously rich.
    In fact after the US Govt announced a 700 billion bailout 70 billion of that went straight to the fat cats who caused the crisis in the first place.

    John Key tells us himself that he was heading a department which was developing all these wonderful new financial products.

    This is what he had to say about it:

    Key explains: “I had a whole lot of people working for me who were at the cutting edge of delivering quite complex and new and innovative products. They tended to either be a new product or into a new market, usually the emerging markets, Russia, Brazil, Argentina. I wasn’t the guy sitting there dreaming it all up, but I was the guy who was responsible for those people.” Did he foresee the problems which resulted in the sub-prime crisis? “Was it hard to predict? Not really.”

    And then the NZH continues with:

    The products which underpinned the sub-prime boom – then bust – were hatched in 2004-2005, long after Key had left Merrill. Indeed, he says when he went back to London in 2007 he was “horrified” at the level of risk Merrill was running. “It was enormous and I just didn’t think that enough had changed to warrant that level of risk.”

    Russia collapsed and had to default on it’s foreign debt in 1998 leaving the LTCM fund so badly damaged that Merrill Lynch and in the end the FRNY had to bail it out.

    Merrill Lynch was one of the most aggressive banks in the speculative derivative trade and almost went belly up due to their huge exposure to the LTCM hedgefund debacle right when John Key is talking about hedgefunds and is heading the “debt” department. Debt being the bloody bonds and derivatives trade (according to his own website)

    HS,

    You were doing so well in the civility department. tut tut.

    The facts aren’t my opinion. the facts are, as supported by links to the NYTimes archive and John Key’s interviews, that JK lied about when he worked with Andrew Krieger and what he did when working for Merrill Lynch.

    The facts are that due to the fraudulent machinations of an elite small coterie of Banksters the world will inevitably go toward the worst depression this planet has ever seen.

    My opinion is that based on these facts JK is a lying scumbag and he should be asked a lot of questions by our “independent” mass media which they won’t.

    No, I will not go away. I will stay and try to give my information to all who will have it.
    And I hope that one day the Kiwi’s will catch on that JK is the source of their misery not the solution.

    And yeah, feel free to disagree with me. The truth sucks but there you have it, the facts make a liar out of John Key. LOL.

  74. Coge,

    I am not Labour. JK lies and I would like to know why.

  75. higherstandard 75

    “The facts are that due to the fraudulent machinations of an elite small coterie of Banksters the world will inevitably go toward the worst depression this planet has ever seen.”

    No that’s an opinion.

  76. Chess Player 76

    coge,

    “Maybe it’s time for the left to conduct an objective electoral post-mortem”

    I think one of the problems is that ‘the left’ is not easy to pin down or group together these days. From my observation, the Greens are actually more Red than Labour…

    I have voted Green in the past, but that was when I didn’t (naively) realise it was where all the hard lefties hung out. I was interested purely in the advancement of Environment issues, but when I found out that in fact that was only one part of what the Greens were about, I couldn’t vote for them any longer.

    My view is that the distinction between Left and Right is basically gone, in the general public’s mind, or will be, by the next election, except in the mind of those who were either very hard Left or Right to begin with. MMP seems to be producing a more homogenised politcal spectrum and having the effect of washing out the extemists on either side. Perhaps that is why the extremists are becoming more vocal – the pressure is on them.

    Winston is gone and Peter Dunne has I reckon only one term to go, since with the homogenised political spectrum there is no real place for fence sitters and other opportunitists to try to work the margin between Left and Right.

    My prediction from here is that we will have a Nat led govt for the best part of 10 years, since it will take that long for Labour to turn itself round and for the public to be clamouring for the next ‘change’. The Greens have staked out the Left and will always have a presence, ACT have done the same with the hard Right, so the difference is going to be come whether you want those extremists moderated by either National or Labour.

    National, if they are smart, will keep John Key as leader until after the next election, and then transition across to a new leader, in time to still appear fresh and envigorated in time for the election after that. That way they can point to both the achievements during their term, and be presenting a ‘change’ option themselves. This is what Labour should have done, but that would have meant that Helen and Michael would have to park their egos, and that was never going to happen.

  77. HS,

    While you have your week holiday from the Standard and I have a week off from your comments you might want to watch this about the origins of the New York federal reserve, or watch the Money Masters both the product of many years of research and full of facts or you might use all your that time your saving to read these five excellent and fact filled articles about the financial tsunami that is about to hit us.

    From these you will learn how the banksters work and why we will not escape the worst depression this world has ever seen.

    Funny how you are the one telling me to take a holiday and you are given one perhaps you should extend yours to about six months and come back apologising to me for being so stupid about John Key. LOL

  78. Phil 78

    Trav,

    So now you’re saying John Key helped to collapse Russia?!

    That’s a new one – but I confess to not reading all your stuff closely.

    Silly me, I thought the Russians had tried to protect a severely overvalued currency, and got caught unprepared for relatively low oil/commodity prices in the face of an international slowdown after the Asian crisis in 97/98 (which, again, was the fault of governments trying to protect overvalued currencies)

  79. Jimbo 79

    Imagine you have to chose someone to make up the numbers in your pub rugby team. Candidate A turns up and can prove to you he played for the All Blacks in the losing 2007 World Cup campaign. Candidate B has no track record at all.

    Most people would accept that the Candidate A’s track record IS worth something, even though he played for a losing team and even without personally verfiying how many games he played, how well he played in them etc. The very fact that Candidate A made the All Blacks is proof of competence, to a certain point.

    The same is true of John Key. The very fact he held the position he did in Merrill Lynch, the very fact he generated the income the did, is proof we are dealing with a pretty talented bloke. Reasonable people think this way.

    As I said before, in my mind the instictive attempts by many to denigrate his CV and denigrate his non-political achievements is a sign of the problems in NZ’s political debate.

  80. bobo 80

    Lew – Shame you didn’t see the Helen Clark summary on TV1 lets just say news on the weekend is a joke too, I think when Stacey Jones “retired” from the warriors a few years back TV1 did a longer clip on him than Clark, maybe alot of the News team were hung over from the rooftop party the night before. I’m not just blaming TVNZ , TV3 are just as bad, even on the election night I thought Cambell was going to couch jump when he saw Winston was a gonna, with his token “awww” “such a shame ” smugish comments , it just seems to me personalities dominate over actual news reporting, we get constant commentary on what to think instead of just reading the news, it’s a FOX thing.

    The most unprofessional moment I saw during the media coverage was the Ralston Campaign 08 on skynews where they did a show on Winston even though he probably told them he wasn’t going to appear weeks earlier, so instead of having another political party on they spent the half hour trolling him with Garner, Soper..was painful to watch them spill their guts.

    Oh the other Media “Highlight” was the cutout part on Eye2eye of Mathew Wooten calling Winnie a c**T, maybe it will appear on youtube at some point in the future ,media gold I say.. and I guess these same commentators will be used day in day out to analyze the next 3 years of politics..

  81. randal 81

    ev…most of the time he lies because either he is that stupid to beleive that such things dont exist that he cares not to believe in or now he is going to have to rely on people that cant really tell him the truth because they are one dimensional fools themselves
    despite the fact his media handlers etc devised a presidential campaign he is still goin to have to deal with parliament and that is where his support will erode very rapidly if he and his supporters are not capable of facing the exgiences and aleatory factors of holding the treasury benches
    now it isnt so easy as it was
    and not as simple as it looks
    yes indeedy
    and
    btw
    papers left over in every shop in town
    ?????
    hobody is really happy about what they have done
    national are going to have to perform now
    no power wanks on the 9th floor

    forget about state assets and all the rest
    they are going to have to put inplace a whole new raft of economic policies providing more jobs
    are they smart enough?
    only time will tell

  82. No Phil,

    I did not say that John Key caused the collapse of Russia.

    What I said is that Merrill Lynch was one of the most aggressive banks were it concerned their involvement in LTCM, the hedge fund at the centre of both the Asian and the Russian crisis.

    It just so happened that John Key at the time was the Global head for foreign exchange of Merrill Lynch. Remember the people he had to fire? The ones he fired with a grin on his face earning him the moniker the “smiling assassin”?
    Those people were fired after the Russian crisis caused a little bit of a problem for ML.

    I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

    Merrill Lynch stood to loose between $ 1 and $ 1.5 billion when LTCM collapsed due to the collapse of Russia.

    Oh oops, John Key was involved in trying to save his bank from the loss of hmmm… 1 to 1.5 billion dollars when he was the head of forex.

    And here he tells about his involvement with the Russian market on page 14 of the interview

    About what caused the Asian Crisis in which LTCM was also heavily involved and the Russian crisis there are two schools.

    One the one supported by same investment banks involved in the crisis and therefore highly suspect is that the countries themselves were responsible and two, one supported by scholars worldwide which states that large attacks (like the one performed on NZ by Andrew Krieger but than much much bigger) by LTCM amongst others were responsible and since after the crises both the Asian countries and Russia on their vulnerable currencies were forced to implement many neoliberal (i.e. bankster policies) seen by many as a new form of colonisation I tend to lean towards the second school.

    By the way don’t worry about that poor Merrill Lynch bank. The federal reserve bank of New York bailed LTCM out. They didn’t loose a cent.

    Isn’t it strange how John was working for Bankers Trust which collapsed due to a $ 195 million loss for a Proctor & Gamble, a little issue caused by ooh oops speculative Derivatives and how he ends up managing the department responsible for the development of ooh oops more speculative and complex products and while our entire financial system is collapsing not a single mainstream journalist here in NZ does any research into his career. Funny that.

  83. Billy 83

    Maybe you have a point, randal. But then again, you are the person who boldly predicted:

    looks like the rabid right are really pissing themselves at the moment
    what ever they do is no use and their campaign is about to go belly up
    and all their rancid ruminative ramblings will be like some some winos ramblings drifting on the wind
    their whole nasty schtick is about to founder on rationality and decency and they will slink back under their stones
    good riddance

    John’s walkabout itinerary

    So explain why we would trust your political instincts about anything?

  84. randal 84

    billy just because I support a party does not mean that I do not know what has to be done
    and
    besides I was talking about the rabid right
    there is no doubt that Helen \clark had grown tired and that is the nature of poltics
    it grinds its practitioners down
    but also the question of whether this national party are any good
    and that question is independent of what I might personally think about them
    they must perform
    or they are out too
    now I am going on holiday
    while
    john and matthew and roger and wodney konklave
    what a nest of vipers
    hahahahahahahaahaahahaaha

  85. Does any one have any thoughts on banning opinion polls before an election?

  86. Chess Player 86

    leftrightout,

    “Does any one have any thoughts on banning opinion polls before an election?”

    When would you like to have them, then, After an election?

    Wouldn’t that just then be, um, the Result?

  87. Vinsin 87

    Leftrightout, I’d like to see more polls; mainly what’s happening in the electorates. I think if we saw what was happening in Belmont then maybe Peter Dunne would be out.

  88. Lew 88

    bobo: Yeah, I’m more familiar than most with the merits of NZ TV and radio media – waching and listening to them have been my job since I got back here in 2006.

    L

  89. Rex Widerstrom 89

    Chris G suggests:

    I dont believe its a small portion of right wingers, go look at user comments on yahoo.co.nz in the politics pages.

    Didn’t know they had them till now, so popped across for a look. And this is the first thing I come across because it hapened to be the top of the “general” category:

    JK’s daughter looks like an EMO!

    – JK’s daughter (She looked like she was a bit off the rails). She had a blonde emo style hair with a nose stud. There was no obvious rebelic manner about her, but surely she was wierd!

    – I wanna marry her when I grow up.

    – great key can look forward to half dead looking grand_sprogues who are dead inside as well ha ha ha Someone put on The Cure please

    – imagine what helen clark’s daughter would look like!!??!!

    – Helen’s sisters and their daughters were up on the stage at Labour HQ on Saturday. None of them were as pretty and fair as sweet helen 🙂

    – If that is how he brings his own daughter up to look like that, how the hell is he going to run this country. Bring back Aunty Helen is all I say, PLEASE!!!!!!!

    All the depth of a puddle from complete bloody idiots from both sides of the spectrum methinks. Needles to say I won’t be going back there, I’ll stick with The Standard and Kiwiblog – at least the inflammatory rhetoric there is about something that matters (usually).

    Meanwhile Lew confesses:

    I’m more familiar than most with the merits of NZ TV and radio media – waching and listening to them have been my job since I got back here in 2006.

    Oh, so you’re on the dole then? 😉 😀

  90. Lew 90

    Rex: Heh. Fair assumption. But you know, the private sector actually paid me to do that – and pretty well, too.

    Nowadays I’m mostly dealing with print media, in Australia. But it could all change tomorrow.

    L

  91. mike 91

    the national party will go the way of labour in the 80s becouse mr key is trying to govern as a labour prime minister , this will rip the factions in the national party apart . you cant do that your core national right wing voters will dissert you . the other consern is an all national cabnet means the nats cop the blame for the lot . and with labours conservitive leader in goff who is no bill english . but mr gof is a transition leader as he says he will transend labour from opposition straight back into govenment . labour dont need to pick 6 leaders before we get the one we want . weve lernt from nationals pathetic preformance in opposition . how long can the nats side line act ? . national are set to loose seats on the special votes prob down as low as 57 seats , makeing the majority even slimmer . well be back in 3 years with a real landslide like in 2002 against national . the nats have had two swings to them in the last two elections , well we are now due a swing to labour at the 2011 elections plus a higher turn out . that equals big trouble for the new left wing national govenment .

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