National’s Tax review strategy

Written By: - Date published: 11:22 am, March 5th, 2019 - 107 comments
Categories: capital gains, climate change, Environment, farming, global warming, national, same old national, sustainability, tax - Tags: ,

It appears that every few days a new capital gains tax horror story is going to emerge from within National’s research unit.

A few days ago it was the effect on Kiwisaver accounts. The latest concerns farming. From Benedict Collins at Television New Zealand:

“A raid on regional New Zealand” – that’s how the National Party is describing the proposed Capital Gains Tax to anxious farmers.

In Otago today, farmers met with National’s agriculture spokesperson Nathan Guy who warned a suite of new taxes could be on the way.

“Tens of thousands of farmers up and down the country are outraged by this [Tax Working Group] report,” Mr Guy told 1 NEWS. 

“It’s a raid on regional New Zealand.”

Holy hyperbole.  And I thought that the report was a series of recommendations for the Government to consider.

It is not as if Farmers farm for a tax free capital gain which they pocket when they sell and which they should pay tax on anyway. If they bought the farm with the intent of selling it at a profit they would have to pay tax on the profit any way.

But wait …

Federated Farmers Otago President Simon Davies said people don’t get in to farming for the annual return.

“To some extent it’s to set up your financial security by having a pot of gold at the end when you sell the farm.”

“Having worked my way up to where I’m at having traded a few properties and working hard and making short term sacrifices it would be very disappointing to find that the government then takes a third of it when I sell it.”

It is only proposed by the TWG that a third of the increase in value excluding renovations from a nominal date in the future would be taxed.

And here come the shock horror figures:

National calculates that the average sheep and beef, or dairy farmer – could have a $600,000 bill to pay if they sold their farm 10 years after a 33 per cent CGT is introduced.

That assumes the property went up in value by more than $1.8 million over that period.

The assumptions are heroic if you look at what has happened in the past decade.  Farm prices which peaked in 2008 then post GFC declined dramatically and have only gradually recovered since then. If a similar increase occurred then National’s calculations are approximately right but it has relied on cherry picking a low starting point.

And even mainstream economists are wondering how fair this is:

… economist Cameron Bagrie, said that raises issues of fairness. “If the farm’s going to go up – as they’ve put up $1.8 million over the next 10 years – that’s $180k a year – that’s more than double the average family income and that’s untapped money so there’s a big strong fairness argument that people should be paying tax on that capital gains,” Mr Bagrie said. 

“Of course the flipside to that is if I have a look at the typical value of a farm – say up around 6 to 7 million dollars – why should they be paying capital gains tax if someone has a 6 to 7 million dollar Remuera mansion is not?”

Bagrie is right.  This is an industry that farms capital increases for profit. Why should it not pay tax on the profits it makes?

There are other problems with the Farming industry.  Like the destruction of precious parts of our environment such as waterways and the fact that the industry pumps out half of the country’s greenhouse gas emissions.

Which is why the TWG made this recommendation:

Farming-specific deduction rules and depreciation rates should be reviewed as part of the Tax Policy Work Programme. This is to ensure they do not incentivise activities that destroy natural capital or disincentivise activities that enhance natural capital.

This could involve both removing harmful concessionary provisions but also introducing positive incentives.

If you want confirmation that Farmers are engaged in the farming of capital gains how about this graph from the TWG report:

Over half of the total profit in the Agriculture, Forestry and Fishing industry is untaxed capital gains.

Rod Oram says this about the graph:

Once again, the chart above sheds light. The primary sector generates 53 percent of its profits from untaxed realised gains, mainly from escalating land values, the highest percentage of any sector.

But farming mainly for capital gains rather than operating profits only pushes the cost of farms up far faster than the price of the commodities many of them produce. For example, the global market-clearing price for whole milk powder has been around US$3,500 a tonne for more than a decade. Yet, the average price per ha of dairy land rose by 97 percent from December 2003 to December 2018, according to the Real Estate Institute’s Dairy Farm Price index. Moreover, the price is very volatile, which creates winners and losers among farmers. With a CGT, farmers would offset capital losses against capital gains. Now they simply have to live with the losses.

There is a serious debate to be had about our current tax system. And an industry that receives so much state support by way of infrastructure and causes so much environmental damage ought to be paying its fair share in tax.

Which is why the debate about a CGT is an appropriate one to have.

107 comments on “National’s Tax review strategy ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Sacha 1
    5 March 2019 at 11:42 am

    The Nat MP for Kaikoura (no, I’ve never heard of him either) chimes in:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/111001119/capital-gains-tax-attack-on-middle-new-zealand-or-treating-everyone-fairly

    The proposed Capital Gains Tax, which has been presented alongside a swathe of additional taxes, is an attack on middle New Zealand.
    …
    The logical result is that we will see less investment by middle New Zealand families in rental properties, which reduces supply in this already critically tight market, and further drives up rental prices.
    …
    Other, less direct but no less real, costs are the billions of dollars required for compliance within what would become a vastly more complicated tax system – in fact, one of the most onerous capital taxation regimes worldwide. As individual taxpayers, businesses and indeed bureaucrats grapple with this system, the cost of enforcing it will erode revenue gathered from it.

    A complex tax system also discourages investment, and hurts international competitiveness, which will inevitably trickle down to all sizes of business, including family-owned enterprises of middle New Zealand, the owners of which will have already been hit by the CGT.

    ‘Middle’!

  2. Wayne 2
    5 March 2019 at 11:45 am

    I appreciate that you seem to be backing all aspects of the Tax Working Group. Thats your choice.

    But National is not going to support any of it. They are not beholden to the government to debate the issue on the governments terms. They don’t even need to consider it. They can just say “no”.

    They don’t have to debate the CGT in any meaningful way (except to the extent they need to know the detail of the proposals). They can simply oppose it, which is what they are doing.

    So the examples they are raising with farming community are perfectly reasonable. There can hardly even be one farmer who would think CGT is a good idea. Well, I am sure you could always find one.

    Anyone who holds a farm for say 5 years is not remotely ever going to be caught by the current intention test in the Income Tax Act. The courts have never interpreted that provision in that way. So that is a complete red herring, and I am sure you actually know that.

    The one point that I have noted during the debate is that the 5 year bright line test is unlikely to be repealed. I wonder if there is an opportunity to extend it beyond residential and commercial property that is held as an investment.

    • Sam 2.1
      5 March 2019 at 12:00 pm

      Well polls have remained fairly consistent for any one who raises taxes. John Key raised GST and his polling wasn’t effected much, apparently he just never did anything with it that could be materially pointed to.

      I understand your concern but when do expect Simon Bridges to be in a position to repeal what a majority are cool with, with out deploying delaying and obfuscation. It’s the opposite of electability. Perhaps his deputy or finance spokesperson could carry his argument for Bridges? I mean what kind of strategist are you.

      • Dukeofurl@outlook.co.nz 2.1.1
        5 March 2019 at 2:17 pm

        Key raised Patrol taxes too. That was on top on the annual cost of living tax increases.
        They had their special petrol tax increase of 3 cents per year for 3 years ( +GST)

        • Sam 2.1.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 4:50 pm

          Correct. As Dukeofurl eludes to. John Key was competent at shepherding taxes from the public.

    • Cinny 2.2
      5 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

      Farmers and property investors are in the minority of NZ voting public.

      national can preach all they like to their voter base, but opposing a CGT will not garner them any new votes.

    • Stuart Munro. 2.3
      5 March 2019 at 12:35 pm

      We understand National’s determination to be the last dinosaurs Wayne. But many farmers are both cleverer and more socially responsible than you suppose.

      If you are foolish enough to create a cleavage along ethical lines, as these announcements seem to be designed to do, don’t be surprised when the non-CGT avoiding majority become remarkably punitive towards freeloaders.

      • Wayne 2.3.1
        5 March 2019 at 4:12 pm

        It is poor policy to have punitive tax aimed at a large sector of society.

        Governments come and go, so punitive taxes get rapidly repealed.

        Successful policy is that which survives across different governments. For instance I am pretty sure the 5 year bright line test will survive.

        • Sam 2.3.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 4:28 pm

          That makes it sound like you are innocent.

        • KJT 2.3.1.2
          5 March 2019 at 4:37 pm

          CGT is no more “punitive” than PAYE on wages.

          It is a deliberate choice businesses are making, to reduce their day to day income, to pump up their asset values, and get their return as tax free capital gains, on sale, instead.

          This is not good for the country as a whole.
          The narrower tax base, land prices above the level any return as an ongoing business can cover, borrowing to pay inflated prices, the short term business focus, and the amount of the economy tied up in buying and selling land, are all costs born by everyone. While a few gain the benefits.

          If anyone else but farmers, landlords and businesses were doing it, it would be called what it is, freeloading, on the efforts of others. Bludging!

          Meanwhile Share-milkers who want to buy a farm, (Actual family farmers) Startup businesses needing land for their business, someone wanting to buy and run a business, young people needing a house, are shut out, by overpriced assets.

        • Stuart Munro. 2.3.1.3
          5 March 2019 at 5:07 pm

          You seem to have, no doubt willfully, misunderstood.

          If the farmers choose to self-identify as rabid tax evaders, they will pay the price for generations. Nothing to do with this government’s relatively modest ambitions in respect of taxation. But you knew that.

        • Sabine 2.3.1.4
          5 March 2019 at 8:56 pm

          How about GST? Don’t you think that is a punitive tax?
          And here is National, the tax cuts for me and a GST increase for thee party, raising GST to 15% and nary giving it a thought and a giggle.

        • Incognito 2.3.1.5
          5 March 2019 at 10:31 pm

          What’s the opposite of a punitive tax, Wayne? A rewarding tax? Tax is legalised theft, isn’t it?

          But as you said @ 2 neither the Opposition nor you have to support any of it. You are not beholden to the government or posters here on TS to debate the issue on terms other than your own. You don’t even need to consider it. You can just say “no”.

          You don’t have to debate the CGT in any meaningful way (except to the extent you need to know the detail of the proposals). You can simply oppose it, which is what you are doing here, aren’t you?

    • vto 2.4
      5 March 2019 at 12:45 pm

      Wayne, this by the Fed’s Otago President above… “Federated Farmers Otago President Simon Davies said people don’t get in to farming for the annual return.”

      This goes to the heart of our tax system and simultaneously exposes the biggest rort in NZ…
      … those who go into business for the purpose of making money by capital gain but dont pay tax on it.

      Those people (and all those farmers Simon Davies refers to) are simply lying and cheating the tax system. And they are cheating those who make money by actual proper work every day and have to pay tax on the money they make.

      Why don’t your lot want to pay tax when they make money Wayne?

      They need to stop bludging

      capitalist bludgers, nothing more

      New Zealand would be better off without them.

      As many farmers are wont to say – “blah blah, if you don;t like us farmers then maybe we will bugger off rant, rant”… better watch out that offer doesn’t get taken up Wayne

      • AB 2.4.1
        5 March 2019 at 12:56 pm

        Very interesting to see the admission that they are farming primarily FOR the capital gain.
        Can the capital value of the farm expand infinitely for ever?
        At what point does the capital value (exchange value) of the farm become so detached from what it produces (the use value) that the whole thing looks so irrational that non-one believes it any more?
        Is it actually a Ponzi scheme where the last one in (who has no idea that’s who they are) takes the hit?

        • WeTheBleeple 2.4.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 1:21 pm

          Yes, agriculture today is an oil based ponzi scheme that uses more energy than it produces. The land values are hyper-inflated in relation to production values due to the whole economy built on this carbon bubble.

      • dv 2.4.2
        5 March 2019 at 1:01 pm

        “Federated Farmers Otago President Simon Davies said people don’t get in to farming for the annual return.”
        Effectively this unlawful, as the intention buying a property for the capital gain is liable for the CGT.

        So are the IRD are watching?

    • mickysavage 2.5
      5 March 2019 at 1:35 pm

      Interesting comment Wayne. I am not backing every aspect of the TWG. For instance I think there is an argument for discounting the tax rate on some classes of assets.

      But I am trying to set out my reasons why.

      And I can’t see any attempt by National to rationalise its position. All I hear is noise …

      • BM 2.5.1
        5 March 2019 at 1:39 pm

        And I can’t see any attempt by National to rationalise its position. All I hear is noise …

        National was doing tax cuts at the last election, they’re sure as fuck not interested in adding new taxes.

        That’s the start and end of the debate as far as they’re concerned.

        Anyway 5.5 billion dollar surplus, we don’t need anymore taxes.

        • vto 2.5.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 1:57 pm

          It’s not more tax numpty

          It’s spreading the burden of the tax take more fairly from those who work to make money to those who don’t work to make money.

          • woodart 2.5.1.1.1
            5 March 2019 at 4:33 pm

            you cant debate with a closed(permanantley it seems) mind vto. BM is not worth the effort. just another waste of oxygen trolling.

        • Augustus 2.5.1.2
          5 March 2019 at 2:13 pm

          They did not cut taxes. They shifted them from higher income earners to all consumers, including low income earners.

          • Sam 2.5.1.2.1
            5 March 2019 at 2:26 pm

            Well jobs for life are increasingly fewer and farer apart. Whether the population likes it or not the tax system is going to have to make adjustments that reflect the changing realities of the economy and employment and family culture and climate change and so on and so forth.

        • KJT 2.5.1.3
          5 March 2019 at 2:38 pm

          When they raised GST, added a whole lot of other taxes/sorry, charges, and borrowed to give election bribes to the well off.

          Didn’t National’s financial, lair in chief, say there was an 11 billion, “fiscal hole”?

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.5.1.3.1
            5 March 2019 at 6:02 pm

            He also cut taxes for the wealthy, which is the same as raising taxes on everyone else.

      • KJT 2.5.2
        5 March 2019 at 5:14 pm

        I think there is a case for rollover, in some instances. Say, when a firm changes business premises, or a farm/business is inherited, and the family carries it on, as a going concern.

    • Kat 2.6
      5 March 2019 at 1:47 pm

      How does it feel to be on a hiding to nowhere Wayne?

    • KJT 2.7
      5 March 2019 at 2:49 pm

      I see the party of “individual responsibility” avoids “responsibility” by acting like a bunch of spoiled children, again!

      How about some “individual responsibility” taken, by farmers and other capital gains farmers, for the costs on those of us, who do pay our taxes, of our mis balanced economy.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.8
      5 March 2019 at 6:01 pm

      Yes, National are wreckers that are comfortable with 40% of the population having just 3% of the wealth.

      They can just say ‘no! No! No!’, no debate required. What a great party.

  3. Ad 3
    5 March 2019 at 12:09 pm

    A Hoover and an Electrolux were walking through the Milford Track Beech forest.

    Hoover turns to the other says: “Why are these trees all staring so meanly at us?”

    Electrolux looks straight at him: “You should know by now. Nature abhors a vacuum.”

  4. Psycho Milt 4
    5 March 2019 at 12:40 pm

    “Having worked my way up to where I’m at having traded a few properties and working hard and making short term sacrifices it would be very disappointing to find that the government then takes a third of it when I sell it.”

    It’s truly astonishing how many people think “But I wouldn’t like having to pay tax on the money I make!” is an argument against capital gains tax.

    • Michelle 4.1
      5 March 2019 at 1:19 pm

      This is the attitude that permeates in many of our rural areas they think they are the only ones that have worked hard they being the so called middle NZders fuck some of them need to get real how much money ( our taxes ) did our government just pay out to farmers to fix that bovis diseases their behaviour and slack attitudes puts me of eating meat and drinking milk.

      • patricia bremner 4.1.1
        5 March 2019 at 8:33 pm

        I believe the Government (You and I) have contributed $870 000 and the farmers complained because they were expected to find a third of the remaining costs.

        Has a familiar ring to their attitudes towards CGT. ?? Don’t you think??

    • Rapunzel 4.2
      5 March 2019 at 1:53 pm

      They are not going to “take a third” even if the rate is 33% it will be at maximum a third or what whatever tax rate your total income falls into. and if you are a couple that will be split on the INCREASE in the value at the sale that is OVER and above the price valued at April 2021.
      As tax rates will no doubt be increase over all that increase or Capital Gain will be income just as people are already taxed on bank interest as income.

      • Psycho Milt 4.2.1
        5 March 2019 at 2:10 pm

        You’re right, of course. But suppose the Nat’s propaganda was accurate for once and the poor farmer really did stand to pay 33% tax on the full capital gain of his farm (the nerve! As though he were a mere pleb working for wages or something!). Even then – what kind of a sob story is that going to make in the media? “I thought I was going to get $1,800,000 of free money but now I’m only going to $1,200,000! It’s so unfair!” Can’t see the population rising up in anger over such manifest injustice…

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 4.3
      5 March 2019 at 2:38 pm

      This is the most valid point. The one the government seems incapable of making.

      All they have to say it the above. It might not be as much as proposed, but this is the best reason for it

      • Sam 4.3.1
        5 March 2019 at 2:49 pm

        Is that even true that the government is incapable of an argument when Grant Robertson and his little offsider Sir Micheal Cullen have released teasers and pressers about a CGT since winning the election. Granted bias media filter what they say but they are saying stuff.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 4.3.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 4:49 pm

          If that’s what you consider to be holding up your side of the argument… I guess?

          It’s pretty weak though

          • Sam 4.3.1.1.1
            5 March 2019 at 4:55 pm

            Why should any one take your opinion seriously? You don’t claim anything, you ain’t even on gooies lvl of questioning and that’s saying something.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury 4.3.1.1.1.1
              5 March 2019 at 6:05 pm

              Lol, righto sam

              Here I am pointing out that there is a valid point that could be made to save the messaging on CGT for the government and you all you do is attack me.

              You seem to have a fascination with me and the previous governments perceived wrongs

              • Sam …
                5 March 2019 at 6:12 pm

                Well then don’t claim shit if you lack the skills and knowledge to properly understand that the media filter left wing government statements through corporate interests.

                As I’v said before Te Ururoa Flavel, Peter Dunn and a slew of MPs who buddy up to corperate interests get punished by electorates who vote for there own candidate.

                • Tuppence Shrewsbury …
                  5 March 2019 at 6:39 pm

                  What a stupid statement. The government hasn’t said anything. It’s not the media preventing this.

                  But you get your tinfoil hat on and find some more conspiracies. I don’t suppose it’s ever occurred to you that the right wing blogs say the same thing about the media, that it has a right on, some, progressive filter on it?

                  • Sam …
                    5 March 2019 at 7:11 pm

                    Why are you down playing media bias with claims of conspiracy? All I need to do is mentions names like Mike The Hosk, Heather Du Plessis Allen, Barry Soper, any one at Media Works. Sure Jacinda and Grant Robertson don’t always say what corperate elites want them to say but that doesn’t mean they ain’t saying it.

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury …
                      5 March 2019 at 7:21 pm

                      Lol

                      Kris Faafoi vs Maggie Barry

                      Haley Holt vs Mike Hosking

                      Lizzy Marvelly vs HDPA

                      Rod Oram vs Barry Soper

                      Plenty of left wing columnists and talking heads. But keep your conspiracy theories alive. Whatever makes you feel better in your confirmation bias

                    • Sam …
                      5 March 2019 at 7:29 pm

                      I’d rather order pizza.

                      With the acception of Kris and the minister of weeds, when has the rest ever versed each other at anything…, Soper DPA and the Hosk would get exposed straight away if they had to debate any one who is even loosely associated with the truth.

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury …
                      5 March 2019 at 8:21 pm

                      How’s those bias claims then.

                      Do you even keep track of your bull shit?

                    • Sam …
                      5 March 2019 at 8:42 pm

                      You made a claim here>>> https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-05-03-2019/#comment-1590936

                      Tried to associate my name with as many idiot words as you can muster and well, here’s your opportunity.

    • Bewildered 4.4
      5 March 2019 at 8:48 pm

      It’s also truly astonishing that socialist think they can take other people property, redistribute and tax at will

      • Psycho Milt 4.4.1
        5 March 2019 at 9:27 pm

        You think it’s astonishing that governments are able to levy taxes? Have you been living in a cave somewhere until now?

        • Stuart Munro. 4.4.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 9:36 pm

          He pines for those simple pre-Wallenstein days. He is Otzi! (sorry to out you, bro)

      • Incognito 4.4.2
        5 March 2019 at 10:40 pm

        Tax owed is not and has never been your “property”. That’s where the Ta Tax Klan always gets it wrong. Every time.

  5. BM 5
    5 March 2019 at 1:02 pm

    Wasn’t there a 5 billion dollar surplus?
    Yes, yes there was.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/368268/government-books-reveal-a-dollar5-5-billion-surplus

    So why do we need to pay more tax?

    • Kevin 5.1
      5 March 2019 at 1:12 pm

      What happened to Joyce’s fiscal hole BM?

      I will be paying less tax so more than happy with the CGT.

      • BM 5.1.1
        5 March 2019 at 1:35 pm

        That’s because you’re a typical lefty bludger.

        You’ll like this article it was written for people such as your self

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/110868701/capital-gains-tax-far-from-being-an-assault-tragically-it-is-the-kiwi-way-of-life

        • arkie 5.1.1.1
          5 March 2019 at 1:48 pm

          The one thing we love to do is live at the expense of others and this avarice, self-interest and hunger for the wealth of our betters is being pandered to by our prime minister.

          Oof. Why so angry Damien?

        • vto 5.1.1.2
          5 March 2019 at 2:04 pm

          BM, surely you can see that this whole CGT debate is exposing who in fact the true bludgers in NZ are….

          …. its you lot

          The rest of us work hard every day to make money, and pay tax on it.

          You lot are crying because you make money (from doing diddly squat waiting for capital values to rise) and your tax-free status is about to evaporate… and you’re really having a cry… some would say a tantrum even

          … that is the definition of bludging – making shitloads of money and paying no tax. Bludgers.

          • James 5.1.1.2.1
            5 March 2019 at 4:34 pm

            “The rest of us are working hard every day to make money and pay tax on it”

            I’m sure that the “rest of us” includes a number of people who don’t work at all and are quite comfortable just taking tax dollars.

            If you are going to talk for “the rest of us” try to be accurate.

            For the record – I work.

    • Psycho Milt 5.2
      5 March 2019 at 1:53 pm

      So why do we need to pay more tax?

      Who’s “we?” The government is unlikely to impose CGT without corresponding income tax reductions, so “we” as a whole wouldn’t be paying more tax. There would be some paying a bit more and some paying a bit less depending on social class, so “we” effectively comes down to a class divide. As Wayne says, National will never agree to a CGT, and as he didn’t say, that’s because the “paying a bit more” group is firmly on National’s side of that class divide.

    • Dukeofurl@outlook.co.nz 5.3
      5 March 2019 at 2:13 pm

      Why do we need to pay more tax

      Have you seen the $85 bill gross public debt that Key, English and Joyce left us.

      How does that get paid off?

      Practitioners Hint :
      The ‘$5 bill surplus’ is accrual accounting. Its not cash accounting, so there is still around $7 bill of cash deficit

    • KJT 5.4
      5 March 2019 at 2:42 pm

      Who is we?

      We, already pay more tax.

      Some bludgers who have been fucking us over, are going to have to pay their share. Boo hoo.

  6. Michelle 6
    5 March 2019 at 1:21 pm

    what happened to our Saudi sheep deal ?

    • greywarshark 6.1
      5 March 2019 at 1:24 pm

      I heard they had some spare Nat list pollies on the loose, so rounded them up and sent them instead.

    • WeTheBleeple 6.2
      5 March 2019 at 1:27 pm

      Ewe’d think they would have rammed it through but perhaps they were only pulling the wool.

  7. ken 7
    5 March 2019 at 1:37 pm

    All this alarmist fearmongering from the hapless Nats plays right into the hands of the government because when things don’t turn out to be as draconian and catastrophic as the Nats said they would, the government will look good and the Nats will look silly…..again/still.

    • vto 7.1
      5 March 2019 at 2:11 pm

      That’s what I figured ken… give Bridges a free platform and he’s sure to drop a shitbomb and ruin the whole thing for himself and those around, ha ha…

      Government is letting the debate burst into an instant wall of outrage and ineffectual fire, before sliding in later with cool, calm and rational plan, which the majority of people in this country will be looking forward to…

      …namely, a re-setting of the tax rules to ease the burden on those who have to pay tax on their daily hard work, sweat and tears

  8. florabunda 8
    5 March 2019 at 1:58 pm

    Nathan Guy ( a strong local voice for Otaki since 2005) should read David Wallace-Wells’ book “The Uninhabitable Earth” which might concentrate his mind and prevent him from making stupid ‘nudge, nudge, wink, wink’ comments today on national radio.
    He might also give serious thought to issues around climate change (upon which his voice has been silent and his mind blank) and consider some solutions, including a tax on farmers, instead of rubbishing every solution Labour offers.
    Otaki deserves better than 14 years of Nathan Guy’s ineptitude.

    • alwyn 8.1
      5 March 2019 at 2:13 pm

      Gosh. Has Otaki really had the benefit of Guy as an MP for 14 years?
      What ever happened to that nice young chap they had once.
      That fine gentleman Darren Hughes. He seemed so suited to his party.

  9. Michael who failed Civics 9
    5 March 2019 at 2:09 pm

    Is anyone surprised the Nats will tell lies and spread disinformation in order to regain power? It works for them time and again. As for Labour, it continues to ignore and shaft its base (people who are not rich) and continues to reward and appease its enemies (people who are rich). It only works for them in the very short term (although it probably sets a few Labour MPs up with lucrative gigs after they leave politics) and alienates its base. Until Labour politicians remember who keeps them in Parliament no serious changes to our current neoliberal system of government will ever be made (unless a genuine left of centre political grouping comes along but I see no sign of one).

    • tc 9.1
      5 March 2019 at 4:03 pm

      Our system encourages Nero fiddling while Rome burns behaviour. The beltway’s good at chewing up and spitting out dissenting voices suggesting such things as the horrors of socialism.

      We need a party to do what lightweight labour and don’t scare the horses nzf will never do as they’re middle of the road and easy to run over.

    • James 9.2
      5 March 2019 at 4:38 pm

      I love that you call some New Zealanders enimies of labour.

  10. Dorothy Bulling 10
    5 March 2019 at 4:04 pm

    Farmers are business people, and should be farming on the basis that they should be making a profit each year, but in many cases while they are developing a farm, so much of their costs are tax deductible, so in the end each year they are actually paying minimum income taxes. Property developers work the same system. In light of this I see it as totally fair that they should be taxed on the value increase. Many have the ability to minimise the income tax that is due, but those who work for others have no way to do this when income tax is deducted before they get their wages.

    • Kat 10.1
      5 March 2019 at 4:16 pm

      Stop talking “total” fairness……promoting such revolutionary thought will only upset the puppeteers.

  11. Adrian 11
    5 March 2019 at 4:28 pm

    It’s not fair that we can claim a large percentage of our car costs against our farm income when others who work for us and travel up to 60kms a day , can’t. They are bloody hard working NZers, from early in the morning in all weathers to sometimes quite late in the day. Yeah, farming is tough but the majority involved enjoy the life in the outdoors producing stuff, as opposed to sitting on an arse in an office pushing paper..
    But it’s also not fair that we get tax free benefits that are not available to the workers AND especially the fact that everyday we are increasing the tax free advantage of capital gain actually earned on the backs of those who help us to do so. BTW, We pay well above market rates in recognition of this even in those years when we don’ t actually make anything.
    What the numpties and the Nats don’t get is that the house on the farm AND 4500 square metres of land is exempt, but the poor buggers working for the whining miserable arseholes only get the house and 1000 sqm if they are lucky to afford one.
    So No bridges Bridges shut, the fuck up !.

  12. Adrian 12
    5 March 2019 at 4:32 pm

    It’s not fair that we can claim a large percentage of our car costs against our farm income when others who work for us and travel up to 60kms a day , can’t. They are bloody hard working NZers, from early in the morning in all weathers to sometimes quite late in the day. Yeah, farming is tough but the majority involved enjoy the life in the outdoors producing stuff, as opposed to sitting on an arse in an office pushing paper..
    But it’s also not fair that we the owners, get tax free benefits that are not available to our workers AND especially the fact that everyday we are increasing the tax free advantage of capital gain actually earned on the backs of those who help us to do so. BTW, We pay well above market rates in recognition of this even in those years when we don’ t actually make anything.
    What the numpties and the Nats don’t get is that the house on the farm AND 4500 square metres of land is exempt, but the poor buggers working for the whining miserable arseholes only get the house and 1000 sqm if they are lucky to afford one.
    So, No bridges Bridges, shut the fuck up !.

  13. greywarshark 13
    5 March 2019 at 4:55 pm

    This whinger from a real estate background could be part of a campaign against the government.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/110988648/dear-government-please-spend-our-money-wisely

    He preaches good behaviour for government.
    I have to say that I am not a fan of growing the size of government.

    The activities of government should focus on creating a better society for everyone. High quality services, outstanding healthcare, aspirational education, efficient law and order and proactive support for those who need help. The delivery and operation of infrastructure, including transport and immigration, and protection of our key industries such as agriculture, fisheries and tourism, should all fall within the government’s sweet spot.
    And in all that they do, they should seek to be respectful of the fact that every dollar they decide to spend, comes from the pockets of the working people they are serving.     ….

    Talk about right wing cliches. And he wants outstanding healthcare, aspirational education (is that word over-used or what?). For whom I wonder. And aspiring to what, learning to think and accept responsibility as a citizen? Learning to pay a reasonable tax on income and profits?

    And now they want more.
    [Me – Tax that is. When will it ever end! Sob.]

    As has been well reported, the Government appointed Tax Working Group (TWG) has made a pitch for us to pay more tax. Their proposals include what would, if adopted, become the most draconian Capital Gains Tax (CGT) in the world. They talk about it being revenue neutral. In other words, they will give back the additional revenue they collect. But that won’t happen.…

  14. Chris T 14
    5 March 2019 at 8:50 pm

    Lol

    It is pretty humorous every one moaning.

    Given the amount of “Working Groups”, their cost, Labour going for worse case scenario in the outcome to soften people, and the fact Ardern refuses to give details for 2 months.

    Of course National are going to take the piss and hype it.

    If they didn’t see this coming they are idiots.

    • Sam 14.1
      5 March 2019 at 8:56 pm

      There is only one worse case scenario that matters…, climate change.

      When you don’t have a price on pollution and you’re paying polluters. Y’know you’re on the wrong tram.

    • Incognito 14.2
      5 March 2019 at 10:49 pm

      In psychology it is called regression.

      In biology it is called atavism.

      In NZ politics it is called the National Party.

  15. Jetal 15
    6 March 2019 at 11:39 am

    ALL dairy farmer are farming for the tax free capital gains. The average return on farms over a long period is less than residential housing. No one buys a farm with the intent of selling it at a loss anyway so they already should be taxed under the current rules.

  16. Observer Tokoroa 16
    6 March 2019 at 8:29 pm

    It a Cow of a job

    We all know the great sadness that farmers suffer everytime they pull the 4 tits of a cow or kill a bobby calf for money.

    And we know as a tribute to the Cow and Calf, the farmers Shit is most often left where it is – until it can be sent to the filthy river. Known as the sad River Of farmer Browns Filthy Pollution.

    Never mind – he and the Mrs are having a trip overseas soon. Six Weaks .Great fun. They had two trips last year. Plus a new Merc and a huge Tractor.

    Most of which seems to be paid for by the Workers of New Zealand. Fonterra cheese is an expensive tasteless flop. No problem.

    Which reminds me. the great Farmer who brought in sick Cows with Bovis disease – seems to have gone quiet. Have the Workers of NZ paid for his devastation ?

    You just wonder about Farmers when farmers kick the Ass off genuine workers in New Zealand. Our workers don’t get perks and field days and trips overseas.

    They don’t even get get a decent wage,