New Citizens meet Natural Dairy in Beijing

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1. Draco T Bastard 1

   14 January 2011 at 10:42 pm

   New Zealand’s response must to be to ensure our sovereignty by not selling our natural resources and by keeping a close eye on the Chinese Government’s proxies.

   And that political party connections to foreign governments firms and people in the form of logistical support, finances, etc, is completely illegal. We cannot let our government start doing what foreign governments and or companies want it to do.
   • Marty G 1.1

     14 January 2011 at 10:46 pm

     yeah, I was going to put something like that but I don’t how you actually write a law that wouldn’t be pretty easy to work around.
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

       14 January 2011 at 11:04 pm

       You wouldn’t write a new law for it – you would make sure that the relevant information gets out into the public arena and let our political and media system take its own course.

       Oh, hey, hi Winston! You have an impeccable sense of timing…
     • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2

       14 January 2011 at 11:12 pm

       That’s why we have lawyers employed by ministerial departments. No donations from non-NZ citizens/perm. residents would be a place to start. Logistical support would be harder to pick up but still possible – probably start with having a requirement for all party communications to be logged and audited regularly as well as money.
       • Monty 1.1.2.1

         15 January 2011 at 9:19 am

         Like Labour got from Glen Owen you mean???
         • Marty G 1.1.2.1.1

           15 January 2011 at 9:39 am

           Owen Glenn is a Kiwi.
           • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1.1.1

             15 January 2011 at 10:35 am

             Is Lord Ashcroft a kiwi Monty ?
     • Deadly_NZ 1.1.3

       15 January 2011 at 9:51 am

       Why would it be hard ? The Americans have something similar for the President job You have to be an American Born to even get scrutinised for the job.

       So same here in NZ , and yes it’s only a stop gap measure till nz born chinese or who ever become eligible, then you have to hope that they have been kiwi’ised.
       Or maybe the world govt that everyone has been panicking that the Americans would run, will be run by the Chinese in the end . And unlike Kiwi’s abroad, the Chinese have a strong sense of home, and every couple of years they ‘go home’ to China for a holiday. Now thats something you don’t see with Kiwi’s do.

       Just a thought
       • Marty G 1.1.3.1

         15 January 2011 at 9:56 am

         well, I don’t think being NZ-born should be a requirement of standing for Parliament. You would lose about a dozen of the current Parliament. And about 20% of the population is foreign-born.

         And Cullen would have been barred from Parliament.
         • Colonial Viper 1.1.3.1.1

           15 January 2011 at 10:42 am

           Yeah Marty but there should be a requirement at least that all MP’s should “look” and “sound” like a New Zealander.
           • Deadly_NZ 1.1.3.1.1.1

             16 January 2011 at 2:29 pm

             Problem is there you will get accused of doing a Paul Henry.
   • Bill 1.2

     15 January 2011 at 10:38 am

     DtB
     And that political party connections to foreign governments firms and people in the form of logistical support, finances, etc, is completely illegal. We cannot let our government start doing what foreign governments and or companies want it to do.

     I thought that was irony when I read it.

     I mean, aren’t National and Labour both fairly intrinsically linked to their UK counterparts (ie foreign governments). And don’t both Labour and National led governments pander to various foreign governments (eg US foreign policy) and align ‘domestic’ policies to advantage corporates (eg ‘free trade deals)?

     I’m sure that many here could compile a rather long list of instances where NZ Governments or parliamentary parties have received logistical or financial support from foreign governments, firms or individuals and instances of where they have done the bidding of foreign governments or companies.

     Lord Ashcroft, providing tax incentives to corporates, providing troops for wars….

     I wonder if the capability of modern travel was available ‘back when’, whether the NZ Labour and National Parties would have been physically present in London at the time around their inception. I reckon there’s a good chance they would have been.
     • Colonial Viper 1.2.1

       15 January 2011 at 10:46 am

       Bill, what you are talking about there are political party to political party relationships (say NZ Labour and Australia Labor), also direct government to government diplomatic relationships (NZ Govt to Australian Govt).

       Of course, these organisations try and have sway on each another. However in none of those situations is a foreign power trying to get ‘inside’ and influence your democracy directly by co-opting part of your political machinery (the party system).
       • Bill 1.2.1.1

         15 January 2011 at 11:10 am

         CV

         Are you suggesting that the US (just to take the obvious example) hasn’t and doesn’t influence NZ’s political machinery?

         If a political party is launched in NZ seeking parliamentary representation, then fine. No matter their over arching political viewpoint they have to gain a certain amount of support from the voting public. That seems pretty up front to me and far preferable to back room dealings taking place under a veil of public denial.

         In the past, there was logistical support given to various Maoist or Leninist elements within the parliamentary system and today, various individuals are ‘groomed’ and supported by the US government (refer wikileaks cables).

         The difference as I see it is that the US, the UK and the EU already have an enormous amount of influence on ‘our’ politics and so have no need to develop strategies to gain influence.

         Meanwhile, if the world is shifting towards a multi-polar system of influence, then China will be one of those poles of influence. And NZ can either be a fairly ineffective residue of waned US (or anglo-saxon) power or shift to accommodate or seek advantage from newly emerging realities.

         Just to be clear. Unlike others, I feel fairly dispassionate about it all as I feel equal contempt for all entities or persons who would generate a position of privilage for themselves off the back of our ongoing exploitation.
2. JJ 2

   14 January 2011 at 11:57 pm

   Yes, this half-arsed political party is no doubt a CCP proxy and a grave threat to our sovereignty.

   Oh wait, its not going to win any seats, ever. The end.
   • Marty G 2.1

     15 January 2011 at 12:09 am

     stupid to dismiss a threat like this so flippantly. Although I suppose it does make the New Citizen Party the best argument for a high (4-5%) threshold under MMP that I’ve heard.
     • QoT 2.1.1

       15 January 2011 at 11:41 am

       I assume you’re being ironic there, Marty, as “keep a high threshold so Those People don’t get in” is a somewhat scary viewpoint.
3. Irascible 3

   15 January 2011 at 12:02 am

   It should be of concern that Ching has deliberately linked the Citizens’ Party website to the NZLP site in an effort to give credibility to this artificially created “NZ” political party.
   Ching’s link should be taken down as he has no standing in the NZLP at all.
4. Jenny 4

   15 January 2011 at 4:03 am

   Business As Usual?

   So China enters the “Great Game”.

   So, what’s the difference to what all super powers have done before?

   (Maybe because we have the benefit of hindsight), For starters it’s just way to blatantly obvious and ham fisted.

   This country’s business elite have always demanded that trade agreements be put above principle. The unprincipled shaping of our country’s foreign policy by big business and vested interest, forced New Zealand to prostrate itself to the dominant super power of the day.

   When the British Empire declined in the ’50s New Zealand quickly switched it’s foreign policy allegiance to the US.

   But is history about to repeat?

   China may be the new pretender to the throne of world hegemonic superpower.

   But I don’t think so.

   To paraphrase a famous saying: “History generally doesn’t repeat”.

   As a repeat of history, this bizarre attempt at imperial meddling by the PRC in our internal affairs just cannot shake the element of farce.

   So no, I don’t think to court China’s favour we will (as we did for the UK and the US), be sending troops to support China’s wars of expansion any time soon soon.

   “History doesn’t repeat. But if it does, what first came round as tragedy returns as farce”
   • ghostwhowalksnz 4.1

     15 January 2011 at 7:20 am

     A foreign government has its tentacles in a NZ political party?

     Whats new. The US Embassy seems to be copied into all that happens in Wellington. And doesnt hesitate to act to make sure its interests are looked after.
     Im certain we have had previous MPs in the pay of foreign governments. Some of Prebbles decisions when a Labour cabinet minister were puzzling at the time but could point to undue outside influence
     • Jenny 4.1.1

       15 January 2011 at 8:01 am

       I imagine some of our business and political leaders will be quite conflicted over this.

       On one hand they, as always, have their eyes on the buck, and are prepared to sell out our democracy for trade. But on the other hand they will be fearful of of how NZ’s current super power patron, might take it.
       • Carol 4.1.1.1

         15 January 2011 at 5:58 pm

         Well, I think National would rather have it under their control, rather than ceding power to a Beijing-led party in NZ. It’s also possible that National will be worried that some of their support will be drained off to the NCP. OTOH, it would possibly give them another support partner if ACT is demolished at the next election.

         I think it’s interesting that the information has come from the NZ Herald. The headlines highlights the Beijing connection. And today we have another article undermining the NCP:

         http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10699819

         Headline: Migrant party faces an uphill struggle

         Success for the New Citizen Party may depend on its identifying a similar discontent among migrants [like the Foreshore discontent that led to the rise of the Maori Party], most of whom seem happy to support National. Many may also feel uncomfortable about the new party’s business orientation and the involvement of Beijing-based Jack Chen.

         Its founders talk of accommodations with Maori tribes for party votes at the next general election, and gaining support outside the Asian community. First, however, they face an uphill battle to establish credibility by attracting the migrant vote in Botany.

         It suggests that NAct may be worried about having their vote split…?
5. Liberty 5

   15 January 2011 at 7:56 am

   What’s the problem? Labour have had links to the communist for years.
   • Eddie 5.1

     15 January 2011 at 9:16 am

     You’ll notice that the post makes no mention of communism. The issue isn’t that the Chinese government is communist. It’s that a foreign government appears to be funding a political organisation in this country.

     Labour has had links to the Chinese communist party, as it does with various other leftwing parties around the world, just as National has links with various rightwing parties around the world and the 1973-1990 Junta of Chile was one of the models for its neoliberal reforms. The Greens have strong links with other Green parties.

     Nothing wrong with international links to similarly-minded parties. Everything wrong with being a proxy for a foreign government.
     • Dave 5.1.1

       15 January 2011 at 10:50 am

       You sure Eddie? I don’t think the CCP is a member of the Socialist International.
       • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

         15 January 2011 at 10:55 am

         Who was that NZ MP who visited China way before Nixon? IIRC he went as an independent, not as an envoy of the Government. Nevertheless, it was at a time that the rest of the west was freezing China out, and the Chinese leadership hold NZ in particular regard partly because of that. Long memories.
     • Liberty 5.1.2

       15 January 2011 at 3:36 pm

       A couple of people have a meeting in Beijing . Therefore the Chinese government is involved. That is a very very long bow to draw.
       So what nothing new in that.
       Lets talk about all the educational trips to Russia by Union leaders in the 1970s . lets talk about labour party activists going on educational trips to Central America in the 1970s.
       There is nothing new about socialist networking. They have been doing it for years.
       • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1

         15 January 2011 at 3:41 pm

         There is nothing new about socialist networking. They have been doing it for years.

         Ahhhh so. You think that they were in China networking with members of the Chinese Communist Party then?
         • Liberty 5.1.2.1.1

           15 January 2011 at 5:55 pm

           It appears there is one or two on thread are getting there knickers in knot over that possibility.
           I just think it is hypocrisy when the labour party has been networking for years.
           • Eddie 5.1.2.1.1.1

             15 January 2011 at 6:01 pm

             you don’t seem to understand the difference between National, Labour, and the Greens having contracts with similar parties abroad and a foreign government controlling a political party in our country.

             I don’t know how much more simple to make it for you. Finger paints?
             • Colonial Viper …

               15 January 2011 at 6:15 pm

               And the foreign power doesn’t even have to control the new political party. Providing party funding, influencing policy, suggesting acceptable candidates, etc. are all bad enough.
   • ghostwhowalksnz 5.2

     15 January 2011 at 10:37 am

     Yes thats why they have an ex PM on the board of a communist government bank…. oops wasnt Shipley a National PM
   • Daveosaurus 5.3

     15 January 2011 at 11:16 am

     When Jenny Shipley’s government had human rights protestors hidden from public view in 1999, did they do so as agents of the Labour Party?

     When John Key’s government failed to investigate an assault on a Member of Parliament by agents oft he Chinese government in 2010, did they do so as agents of the Labour Party?
6. Adrian 6

   15 January 2011 at 10:27 am

   Eddy, “…the Chinese Government is communist”. But is it ? It seems to have moved beyond or away from communism to something thats a mix of capitalism, colonialism and God only knows how many more isims including now interferism in our half-asleep hollow.
7. Bill 7

   15 January 2011 at 10:48 am

   New Zealand’s response must to be to ensure our sovereignty by not selling our natural resources and by keeping a close eye on the Chinese Government’s proxies.

   Does it really make a flying fuck of a difference whether the privatised, ertswhile common wealth of NZ is wheeled and dealed by Chinese, EU, Australian, US or even New Zealand elites? Our position as citizens remains constant regardless.
8. Jum 8

   15 January 2011 at 12:15 pm

   So, big brother is China.

   Having a party meeting in another country is really scary. Even JKeyll’s free adviser, Lord Ashcroft, came over here to show him how to betray New Zealand and New Zealanders.

   So Shipley is a Communist. Wow. Do NActU supporters know that?
9. Jenny 9

   15 January 2011 at 5:00 pm

   As a symbol of our subservience to overseas powers we host the Echelon Spy Base at Waihopai. Maybe soon we will get a request from the Chinese government for a similar installation in the next paddock?

   What would the US say about that?

   Maybe they could then spend all their time spying on each other’s installations with binoculars rather than wasting $billions trying to break into each other’s undersea cables and satellite communications.
   • Jum 9.1

     15 January 2011 at 5:44 pm

     LOL
10. Drakula 10

    17 January 2011 at 9:17 pm

    Natural Dairy?

    It’s about as natural as petrol and smells worse!!

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1. The Standard: posted on 14 January 2011 at 9:32 am

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