Open Mike 02/06/2018

103 comments on “Open Mike 02/06/2018 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   2 June 2018 at 7:39 am

   From the propaganda playbook.

   The Zionist project to wipe Palestinians out of the history books, and indeed out of existence itself, (a project similar, at least in its ultimate aim, as the aim of the Holocaust to rid Europe of Jews), it is a project that requires propaganda.

   The latest Zionist propaganda to justify Israel’s slaughter of demonstrators in Gaza, protesting against their imprisonment in the world’ biggest open air prison, follows a predictable and well plotted trajectory.

   How to begin;

   First off you have to put out the idea that both sides are, trapped in an intractable conflict, in which both sides are equally culpable, from there you slowly work in the idea, that your side is not as bad as the other side, and that your side is more civilised, more disciplined, more established, and have nicer uniforms. Compared to this, the other side are all depicted as an undisciplined, anarchic, unwashed dangerous rabble, inscrutable and alien, beyond reason.

   The purpose of this propaganda, is no matter how monstrous our crimes, our domination must surely be the better option.

   And so it goes….

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/104295988/commentary-that-palestinians-innocent-israelis-evil-is-morally-bankrupt
   • Ed 1.1

     2 June 2018 at 8:24 am

     David Cumin would say such propaganda.
     He is a Zionist.
     His ease in getting a platform to disseminate such propaganda is the issue.
     The editors at Stuff, TVNZ and NZME are the problem.
   • Ad 1.2

     2 June 2018 at 8:47 am

     Which of the links provided in his article are untrue?
     • Bill 1.2.1

       2 June 2018 at 10:44 am

       Young Gazans are born into a society ruled by Hamas, a terror organisation that does not allow elections

       Not true.

       Oh. You want to know about the links someone who stated that provided. Sheesh.
     • Jenny 1.2.2

       5 June 2018 at 5:27 am

       Ad 1.2
       2 June 2018 at 8:47 am
       Which of the links provided in his article are untrue?

       Kia ora Ad,
       David Cumin’s article, befitting a propaganda piece, is littered with inaccuracies and distortions. (Not to mention all the usual hateful <a href='http://www.dictionary.com/browse/calumny'calumnies common in racist hate speech). But I will deal with just two of the most glaring lies and distortions, which are contained in just one sentence.

       Hamas is backed by Iran and has a genocidal charter that calls for the destruction of Israel

       David Cumin

       Firstly, Hamas has been, and still is, a supporter of the revolution in Syria against the Assad regime. This support has put Hamas at odds with the Iranian leadership which is major backer of the Assad regime. This is a fact that any pro-Israeli commentator would be well aware of.

       In a Middle East split along sectarian lines between Shi’ite and Sunni Islam, the public abandonment of Assad casts immediate questions over Hamas’s future ties with its principal backer Iran, which has stuck by its ally Assad, as well as with Iran’s fellow Shi’ite allies in Lebanon’s Hezbollah movement.

       “I salute all the nations of the Arab Spring and I salute the heroic people of Syria who are striving for freedom, democracy and reform,” Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, visiting Egypt from the Gaza Strip, told thousands of Friday worshippers at Cairo’s al-Azhar mosque.

       “We are marching towards Syria, with millions of martyrs,” chanted worshippers at al-Azhar, home to one of the Sunni world’s highest seats of learning. “No Hezbollah and no Iran.

       “The Syrian revolution is an Arab revolution.”

       https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-palestinians/hamas-ditches-assad-backs-syrian-revolt-idUSTRE81N1CC20120224

       Secondly Hamas does not have a genocidal charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. What Hamas does maintain and has refused to back away from, (unlike their P.A. rivals), is their support for the right of return for the millions of displaced Palestinian refugees, to their traditional homeland inside the current state of Israel. Zionists have conflated this demand as calling for the destruction of the “Jewish State”, and truthfully, indeed it would mean the destruction of Israel in its current form as an apartheid State, where full citizenship is granted only to Jews. To conflate this as a genocidal policy against Jews is like conflating the ANC demand for the end of apartheid as a genocidal policy against white South Africans. I have even read statements from Hamas leaders saying that they don’t care what this new state would be called, either Palestine, or Israel, as long as all citizens both Arab and Jews have equal rights.
   • Cinny 1.3

     2 June 2018 at 9:21 am

     Jen, I watched the UN Security Council meeting this morning.

     The required 9 votes were achieved for the Kuwait proposal, but due to the USA voting against it was not passed.

     Am sick to death of the control of the 5 permanent members, there’s no democracy on that council, freaking disgraceful.

     Sick of the bullshit narrative coming from ‘Murica their spin is always the same.. if you are not pro Israel, you are pro-terrorist Hamas…. it’s rotten propaganda.

     Hamas has never been recognised as a terrorist group by the UN.

     Meanwhile, the real terrorists are ordering the ongoing murders of innocents while sitting behind the safety of their desks.

     https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/06/vetoes-unsc-resolution-protection-palestinians-180601201831238.html
     • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1

       2 June 2018 at 11:22 am

       Am sick to death of the control of the 5 permanent members, there’s no democracy on that council, freaking disgraceful.

       The veto is there to prevent democracy in the same way the Representative Democracy is there to prevent democracy. To prevent the major powers and their allies from being held to account for their actions.

       Make no mistake – the rich and powerful do like the idea that they can be held to account.
       • Macro 1.3.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 11:30 am

         I’m sure you meant :

         Make no mistake – the rich and powerful do not like the idea that they can be held to account.

         FIFY
         🙂
         • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1.1.1

           2 June 2018 at 11:34 am

           ty
     • mary_a 1.3.2

       2 June 2018 at 5:07 pm

       Cinny (1.3) … The US and msm thrive on propaganda. It keeps them alive. Shocking!

       You state …

       “Meanwhile, the real terrorists are ordering the ongoing murders of innocents while sitting behind the safety of their desks.”

       True. Also however let’s not forget too, the murdering Zionists are 100% protected by the deliberate turned blind eye of the West, which in their appalling feigned ignorance of the brutal events in Gaza, are equally culpable of murder and possible genocide as much as the rogue barbaric state of Israel is.
   • Venezia 1.4

     2 June 2018 at 12:46 pm

     Jenny.. the ongoing genocide against citizens of the Gaza Strip is sickening. The capture of our MSM by Zionist spin is even worse. We need to call it out at every opportunity.
     • James 1.4.1

       2 June 2018 at 2:25 pm

       “The capture of our MSM by Zionist spin is even worse.”

       So you are literally saying that the MSM and spin is worse than genocide.

       Interesting view point.
       • One Two 1.4.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 2:50 pm

         Correct, James….

         Genocide, it is…
   • One Two 1.5

     2 June 2018 at 3:15 pm

     Nikki Haley also used the term, ‘morally bankrupt’…

     Propaganda!
2. saveNZ 2

   2 June 2018 at 7:56 am

   What happens when you sell off public land that was previously social/state housing in a partnership… such as this example in London where

   “in Elephant and Castle, South London. The new development, a result of the collaboration between Southwark council and Australian multinational construction company Lend Lease, is going to be on the site of the old Heygate Estate. While the Heygate was home to 1,194 social-rented flats at the time of its demolition, the new £1.2bn Elephant Park will provide just 74 such homes among its 2,500 units”.

   Time for a rethink of selling off NZ social housing and creating these ‘partnerships’ aka free land from the state to build the same number or less houses years later! Maybe a makeover would be a better use of public money and assets and ensuring an development was kept in house so that the assets stay with the state for the purposes they were designed for!!

   https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2017/nov/13/brutal-london-the-capitals-housing-crisis-in-pictures
   • Ad 2.1

     2 June 2018 at 8:51 am

     Anyone who says Elephant and Castle wasn’t a hole that needed redeveloping is mad.

     And lumping thousands of poor people into a few towers has always been a disaster.
     • Barfly 2.1.1

       2 June 2018 at 10:57 am

       “Anyone who says Elephant and Castle wasn’t a hole that needed redeveloping is mad. ”

       Ad the redevelopment achieved a 93% reduction in social housing despite creating an extra 1306 units – I believe anyone defending that needs a bloody hard look in the mirror.

       What way in hell is that outcome desirable?
     • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2

       2 June 2018 at 11:25 am

       Anyone who says Elephant and Castle wasn’t a hole that needed redeveloping is mad.

       Nobody’s saying that. You implying that they are is what’s mad.
     • greywarshark 2.1.3

       2 June 2018 at 12:47 pm

       As is frequent Ad you miss an important point amongst the ones you decide to comment on. Having a small bedsitter in London that is in reasonable order that is affordable is a living area that is a haven, if not heaven. Of course the recent fire in the high-rise indicates that such places must be properly designed, with Council minute control and meet all safety requirements with extra requirements that are likely to be complied with. And then they have to take responsibility to check and see they are kept up to date.
3. saveNZ 3

   2 June 2018 at 8:21 am

   Are we going to end up with luxury housing of more and more satellite families while the local people end up like this…

   https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/jun/01/inside-vietnams-micro-houses-in-pictures

   Was talking to someone who rents a place in Auckland, 1 bedroom at $450 p/w and works a close to minimum wage job in the centre. She was thinking of moving to Australia or the provinces… Since the rates, insurance and body corp probably takes up 1/3 of the rent alone, then the costs of a mortgage on the property, I’m not seeing the rents going down anytime soon… therefore the standards of housing need to be lowered or wages start rising, and fixed expenses start lowering, many are just being forced to move out of the city. There are plenty more there to replace them for residency.

   The debate NZ needs to have is do we need more low wage or underpaid people who after the initial few years to gain residency, do the same thing as the original person to be replaced again, into the Ponzi scheme, multiplying our low wage, low skill and over demand housing issues… or support the original person/tackle why we have suddenly got this problem we did not have a decade ago?

   Same happening with a tradie I know. He is underpaid by about 50% of what he should be paid but is just waiting for the residency paperwork to quit his job in construction. In the meantime it means that the lower waged and expectations of the employee’s in that industry are being propped up by the process… while stopping local people gaining access into that industry…(why would you if you are underpaid and treated like a easily replaced commodity?)
   • aj 3.1

     2 June 2018 at 8:59 am

     Michael Hudson:
     ” You could say that international competition is based on labor’s cost of living in each country. The most important expense in every country’s cost of living today is housing. What makes a country competitive in manufacturing or other sectors comes down to how much it costs to pay for housing.
     20 or 30 years ago only 10 percent to 12 percent of one’s income had to go for housing. That’s about the ratio in Germany today. But in America today it’s over 40 percent in the big cities. It’s also over 40 percent in London, and and it’s rising throughout Europe. But this is not a force of nature. It doesn’t have to be this way. It’s largely because banks have found that they can do to housing the same thing they’ve done to education: Housing is an excuse to get people into debt”
     • Ad 3.1.1

       2 June 2018 at 9:03 am

       With interest rates low and building materials going high, it’s not going to get better.
       • dukeofurl 3.1.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 10:22 am

         I see a winning design for a ‘project house’ in Sydney has been announced

         The build costs they were aiming for were $900-$1100 per sq m by large home builder Mirvac
         https://www.domain.com.au/news/picture-perfect-the-my-ideal-house-design-competition-winner-announced-20160429-goi2g3/

         https://www.domain.com.au/news/sydney-architect-madeleine-blanchfields-reinvented-project-home-set-to-be-massproduced-20180601-h10udf/?utm_campaign=featured-masthead&utm_source=smh&utm_medium=link
         [Images would likely stretch inside dimensions…!]

         Even though Sydney wages are higher than Auckland, there is no way you could build in Auckland for that price per sq m

         Yes Auckland has large ‘non build costs’ which include $12k for water supply/sewage infrastructure contribution, $12k for power supply/lines infrastructure costs. Then there is council infrastructure costs, reserve contribution etc etc. This could end up as $50-80k. But are not considered ‘build costs’.
         The house seems to have a simple slab and is 1.5 storys with enclosed garage
         • In Vino 3.1.1.1.1

           2 June 2018 at 7:38 pm

           Sorry, but as I see it only Germany has a far-sighted policy. Our folly of ever-increasing values will lead to either a bubble- burst, or a hell-hole of a society. Or quietly likely both.
           And I own my house – no mortgage any more.
4. saveNZ 4

   2 June 2018 at 8:46 am

   One way to tackle lazy immigration, is to radically increase the amount of pay a sponsored person needs to get and have provisions in place if it is an employment scam.

   To get away from low wage culture, new work permits should be over $100k to justify a skill that is really both a shortage and a decent level of experience. We might actually claw our way back up the OECD tables on child poverty for example if we import actual skilled people not prop up lazy industry and insane immigration policy.

   Then remove the ability for relative to piggy back on other family members who have migrated here. Maybe replacement with a long term visa where the family members coming have to have private health insurance and pay overseas fees for any children in tow… Might not solve the housing problem but will at lease reduce the long term welfare bills of current residents. There have been a significant number of cases of ‘abandonment’ of sponsored relatives and it should not be acceptable when we have our own elderly and children getting less and less resources and debt piling up for the next generation to pay for.

   NZ hold most of their assets in property. Once that goes they will be like the Vietnamese in the micro houses, with a much lower standard of housing needed or our government increasingly selling off public assets to solve the crisis, while the from other countries buy up luxury housing or land here to build luxury housing.

   Look at the writing on the wall, many of the residents of NZ are starting to live in too much poverty already, under bridges and in cars or struggle to survive on wages. And we have a welfare system, something has gone horribly wrong with current policy!
   • Ad 4.1

     2 June 2018 at 9:01 am

     What evidence do you have that our immigration policy is “lazy”?
     I’m not interested in the instances, what are the trends and policies that back you up?

     Have you had a look at the categories that are favored by NZImmigration?
     The weightings are all there in black and white. Do a bit of work and find the links.

     As for ‘piggybacking’, you might want to have a look at our very long relationship with a variety of Pacific Islands and with Australia before cutting them off. These century-long diplomatic and post-colonial relationships are reasonably important to our society and to theirs.

     You have to have lived in New Zealand for 10 years to get NZSuper.

     https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/seniors/superannuation/superannuation-overview.html

     Are you aware of the governments’ policy towards selling off state houses?

     If you want to do a good discussion on limiting immigration, why not propose a whole post on it.
     • nukefacts 4.1.1

       2 June 2018 at 9:24 pm

       Where are your figures Ad, you’re just a Nat apologist. Show us your links supporting how great immigration is for NZ. Here’s some real figures for the categories Immigration NZ uses to select immigrants:

       Essential skills visa approvals 2016/17
       Truck Driver (General) 400
       Winery Cellar Hand 396
       Waiter 345
       Sales Assistant (General) 320
       Personal Care Assistant 289
       Massage Therapist 259
       Baker 231
       Painting Trades Worker 220
       Builder’s Labourer 185
       Kitchenhand 181
       Fast Food Cook 118
       Farm, Forestry and Garden Workers nec 116
       Bar Attendant 102

       Hardly essential skills, just a way to drive down local wages e.g. now we have Ritchies wanting to add Bus Drivers to this category because they don’t want to pay real wages to NZ’ers.

       Before you parrot National party policy that benefits them, perhaps support your own arguments with some stats.
5. Robert Guyton 5

   2 June 2018 at 9:19 am

   Braunias on Bennett
   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12062725
   • Ankerawshark 5.1

     2 June 2018 at 10:09 am

     More true than funny Robert ie the secret diary of PB.

     Bennett endeavours to push responsibility on to everyone else rather than pick up any herself. Typical Nat
   • Draco T Bastard 5.2

     2 June 2018 at 11:32 am

     That is good 😈
   • gsays 5.3

     2 June 2018 at 7:54 pm

     “….and I was like, “In English?”

     Brilliant.
     Thanks Robert.
6. Cinny 6

   2 June 2018 at 9:25 am

   It’s not going away anytime soon…… no matter how much shite the prior national government tries to spin.

   “Garner: Was the sorry meth sham a state-sponsored scam? ”

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/104405915/garner-was-the-sorry-meth-sham-a-statesponsored-scam
   • Anne 6.1

     2 June 2018 at 10:19 am

     From the link:
     The only way we will know who knew what is to see all the paperwork between relevant ministers and agencies. Have a proper inquiry.

     Doesn’t Garner read the newspapers? Doesn’t he listen to the news? My understanding is that Phil Twyford announced there would be a full inquiry two days ago. But of course by failing to mention that little nugget of info. Garner can leave a negative impression of Twyford’s handling of the matter, and claim he was the first to mention an inquiry.
     • The Chairman 6.1.1

       2 June 2018 at 12:53 pm

       What’s bugging me Anne is while many on the left are focusing on blaming National for this (and some would say rightly so) many seem to be overlooking the new standard that HNZ has adopted still isn’t fit for purpose.

       The Gluckman report clearly states the most commonly used methods in NZ meth manufacturing no longer use solvents. Therefore, the primary contaminant associated with manufacturing is methamphetamine itself. In which Gluckman stated he wouldn’t be worried about until the meth residue reached the level of several hundred micrograms per 100cm2. Indicating the new standard HNZ has adopted is still far to conservative.

       Hence, we can expect to see more unnecessary clean up costs, stress and social harm resulting from this although higher, yet conservative standard.

       We should be urging the Government to quickly act to correct this.
       • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 1:17 pm

         ” many on the left are focusing on blaming National for this (and some would say rightly so…”
         And Chairman, what do you say ? Do you blame National for this?
         • The Chairman 6.1.1.1.1

           2 June 2018 at 1:45 pm

           It appears they are culpable to some extent. But there are also questions over HNZ’s role.

           An inquiry is going to be held so lets hope that gets to the bottom of things. And of course, I wouldn’t want to pre-empt that.

           And what are your feelings on the new but still conservative standard adopted by HNZ?

           Any concern about repeating the same mistake all over again? As it seems all you are concerned about is getting National and not ensuring things are actually put right.
           • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1.1.1

             2 June 2018 at 1:52 pm

             “It appears they are culpable to some extent.”
             Wow, Chair, you’re really socking’ it to ’em! Don’t hold back – “it appears” “to some extent” – could you have chosen words more weaselly than those? I doubt it. I don’t know why anyone would bother discussing the issue with someone to whom it only “appears” “to some extent” – you’re clearly here to shift blame from National, who deserve to have this appalling behaviour stamped hard onto their record in indelible ink.
             “it appears”
             “to some extent”
             Apologist obfuscator.
             What are your thoughts about Mike Sabin’s involvement/influence in this matter, Chairman?
             • The Chairman …

               2 June 2018 at 2:14 pm

               Stating it appears they are culpable to some extent is far from attempting to “shift blame”. I’m admitting I believe they are culpable to some extent.

               As I don’t have all the evidence, I’m not going to put myself forward for defamation.

               I know very little about what the true extent of Mike Sabin’s involvement/influence in this matter is/was.

               If you have something solid on this then feel free to share it.

               Talking of obfuscating, you never answered my questions.

               Don’t forget the longer this Government takes to act, the more people that are going to unnecessarily suffer. Good for the clean up crews though.
             • The Chairman …

               2 June 2018 at 2:55 pm

               Seeing as the new standard HNZ has adopted will still require clean up work to be done and that this Government aren’t acting with urgency to correct this, are you implying Mike Sabin’s involvement/influence extends to this Government too, Robert?
               • Robert Guyton …

                 2 June 2018 at 4:12 pm

                 That’s a particularly…what’s the opposite of guileless?.. comment, Chair!
                 • The Chairman …

                   2 June 2018 at 7:04 pm

                   It was a question, Robert. And like the two before it, you avoided answering.

                   Here’s another.

                   If you’re genuinely disgusted with what National allowed to happen re the meth debacle, where is your disgust of this Government for potentially allowing similar, albeit with a higher, yet still conservative standard?

                   I’m guessing that will be another question you’ll avoid answering.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     2 June 2018 at 7:14 pm

                     “Potentially” you say? Yes, you always call to arms over what Labour potentially have or haven’t done, boy-who-cries-wolf. I’m with you though, in my disgust at National’s behaviour around what you’ve called, “the meth debacle”, Chair. I’m expecting that Labour, having shown good signs so far of repairing that harm, follow through and do all that’s possible. I’ll give them time to find the best path before doing as you are trying to do; damn their actions almost as soon as they have gotten under way. I’m not so keen as you are to harm their efforts or confidence in them. As for not answering your questions; I’m not avoiding doing that, they just weren’t particularly interesting questions.
                   • In Vino …

                     2 June 2018 at 7:48 pm

                     Chairman, a few days ago you were heavily criticising Twyford for not apologising. He has since done so, without recognition from you. Premature rubbish from you.
                     And you want a revision of the new standard? So what exactly is your recommended change? If you know so well that the new standard is wrong, what is the correct standard?
                     With references and citations, of course.
                   • The Chairman …

                     2 June 2018 at 8:23 pm

                     Vino

                     “Chairman, a few days ago you were heavily criticising Twyford for not apologising.”

                     No. That wasn’t me. I was on his case for ruling out compensation. But I see he has done a bit of a flip flop on that, which is good. And if it wasn’t for the immense public outcry (such as from the media and people like myself) the flip flop would have been unlikely.

                     He was ignorant to the fact HNZ are still pursuing tenants for now-discredited meth decontamination. Which I see in another turn around has now stopped. The media pressure and public outcry was again immense.

                     And that the new standard HNZ has adopted is still not fit for purpose. Meaning unnecessary costs, stress and social harm is still going to be created. All based upon a “might be”.

                     The citation for my argument comes from the Gluckman report and what Gluckman stated (re he wouldn’t be worried until the meth residue reached the level of several hundred micrograms per 100cm2).
                 • The Chairman …

                   2 June 2018 at 7:46 pm

                   I’m not out to harm their efforts, Robert. I’m applying public pressure for them to improve their effort.

                   I’ve applauded the good they’ve done.

                   While you’re willing to wait, I don’t want to see more unnecessary costs and social harm. And with HNZ having already implemented its new standard, the potential risk for this is very real.

                   Seems you are more concerned about causing harm to Labour, than the potential harm caused to HNZ tenants and the fiscal cost to taxpayers.

                   How long are you prepared to wait? And what will you do if they don’t find the “best path”?

                   It will be more difficult to encourage them to change direction after the path ahead is set. Hence, it’s far easier to guide them onto it now.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     2 June 2018 at 8:28 pm

                     With any respect due, Chair (many on the Left would say, “none”), I would say you are guiding no-one. You ask, how long I’m prepared to wait: as long as it takes for this proactive Government to ascertain the depth of the problems National created for us all, formulate a reasonable response/cure then implement those responses. You delight in jumping ever gun that suits you in order to create discord; it’s tiresome and oh so predictable.
                   • The Chairman …

                     2 June 2018 at 8:41 pm

                     As long as it takes you say. I wonder how much more damage will be inflicted by then? But hey, clearly you don’t care as long as Labour aren’t hurt, right? Sickening.
                   • solkta …

                     2 June 2018 at 8:44 pm

                     Despicable.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     2 June 2018 at 9:01 pm

                     Oh, nice/sneaky little piece of selective quoting there, Chair; you’re stooping, low, ‘coz you’ve been exposed, again, as insincere.
                     My words were: “as long as it takes for this proactive Government to ascertain the depth of the problems National created for us all, formulate a reasonable response/cure then implement those responses.”
                     Your “clipped” version is … dishonest.
                 • In Vino …

                   2 June 2018 at 9:30 pm

                   Touché, Chairman. You are right: You were on about compensation, not apology. I acknowledge my error. But without my prod, I doubt if you would have mentioned Twyford’s improvement regarding compensation..
                   You remain determined to nail guilt on current govt, as this thread shows
                   • The Chairman …

                     2 June 2018 at 9:46 pm

                     “But without my prod, I doubt if you would have mentioned Twyford’s improvement regarding compensation.”

                     Wrong again, Vino.

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-strategy-on-the-housing-corp-p-fiasco/#comment-1489797

                     “You remain determined to nail guilt on current govt…”

                     Only where it is due.
                 • The Chairman …

                   2 June 2018 at 9:42 pm

                   “My words were: ‘as long as it takes for this proactive Government to ascertain the depth of the problems National created for us all, formulate a reasonable response/cure then implement those responses.'”.

                   Regardless, Robert, the key point was you did say as long as it takes.

                   Hence, the only one being exposed here is you, Robert.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     3 June 2018 at 9:23 am

                     How dull. Chair, if it’s not to take “as long as it takes”, do you propose it should take less time than it takes? Just wondering at your grasp on ideas and words, which seems … fleeting…
                     Regarding selective quoting (see your effort above) I notice you’ve said, and I quote, “Mike Sabin’s involvement”, confirming your knowledge that the former National MP is donkey-deep in this whole sordid business and indicating that you know a great deal more about Mr Sabin’s, “Methcon” business than you are letting on!. I’ll hold you to your words here and expect to hear more detail of what you are clearly well versed in; Sabin’s involvement. Like how that works, Chair?
           • Cinny 6.1.1.1.1.2

             2 June 2018 at 2:28 pm

             Interesting that the person in charge of HNZ currently refuses to be interviewed by media or resign.

             “Housing New Zealand’s (HNZ) chair Adrienne Young Cooper would not be interviewed but said she will not resign.

             HNZ chief executive Andrew McKenzie also again refused to be interviewed”

             So I wonder who are these people?

             https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=26523499

             What’s holding them back from commenting?

             12 November 2015
             New Deputy Chair appointed to HNZC board

             Executive Director of the Auckland Investment Office John Duncan has been appointed Deputy Chair of the Housing New Zealand Board, Housing New Zealand Minister Bill English announced today.

             “Mr Duncan brings financial transaction and investment skills as well as a good understanding of the public sector environment at both a national and local level,” Mr English says.

             Two additional new Housing New Zealand board members have also been appointed Managing Director of Castalia Michael Schur and Former National Party MP Tau Henare.”

             22 August 2015
             Young-Cooper named as new Housing NZ Chair

             Housing New Zealand Minister Bill English has announced the appointment of Adrienne Young-Cooper as the Chair of Housing New Zealand Corporation (HNZC).

             “Mrs Young-Cooper has been Deputy Chair of the HNZC Board since 2010. She brings extensive property and infrastructure investment knowledge and significant governance leadership experience to the role,” Mr English said.

             Mrs Young-Cooper is currently the Chair of Hobsonville Land Company and sits on the board of the New Zealand Transport Agency.

             https://www.beehive.govt.nz/portfolio/national-led-government-2014-2017/hnzc?page=1
             • The Chairman …

               2 June 2018 at 2:59 pm

               Let’s hope the terms of reference in this Government’s inquiry extend to cover these appointments, Cinny.
             • One Two …

               2 June 2018 at 3:00 pm

               Andew Mckenzie ex Auckland Council CFO…

               Presided over the $1BN IT blackhole…

               Moved on before the numbers had become public…
               • Gabby …

                 2 June 2018 at 5:56 pm

                 Did his lordship stoop to giving interviews back then?
             • patricia bremner …

               2 June 2018 at 8:17 pm

               Good on Henry Cooke, speaking truth to power on Stuff toay.
   • DH 6.2

     2 June 2018 at 11:40 am

     It sure won’t go away.

     From what I’ve seen so far I’d think Housing NZ and Standards NZ are in big trouble, the taxpayer is going to be forking out some serious $$$ in compensation claims.
     • Barfly 6.2.1

       2 June 2018 at 12:42 pm

       What ever is paid out will be chump change compared to the cost of the damage that has already been done and the rorts successfully worked by the meth testing /remediation scammers.

       Wasn’t Sabin one the “pioneers” of meth “testing”?
       • DH 6.2.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 2:54 pm

         Maybe but I’m thinking we’ll end up seeing some hefty payouts to those innocent parties harmed by it.

         Housing NZ don’t look to have any reasonable defence for their actions. There’s no-one else to blame, they made the “leap of logic” and IMO it’s likely they’ll be paying bigtime for it.

         The next phase will probably see the legal fraternity poke their beaks in with opinions on all the legal ramifications and I’m expecting most of them to say compensation is a natural corollary in a situation like this
         • The Chairman 6.2.1.1.1

           2 June 2018 at 3:50 pm

           Is this Labour led Government’s adherence to fiscal constraint weighing against the odds homeowners, tenants, landlords, and insurance companies will be given compensation for the meth debacle?

           You’re right. The bill will be rather hefty.

           Nevertheless, with people adhering to the standard, shouldn’t they have a right (whether legal or morally) to compensation? I believe so.

           Ironically, so do National. Which further puts Labour on the spot.

           What will this Labour led Government do?

           Spend millions fighting it out in court? Or willingly do the right thing?
           • DH 6.2.1.1.1.1

             2 June 2018 at 5:47 pm

             “What will this Labour led Government do? ”

             I guess we’ll just have to wait & see won’t we. Whatever happens we can at least be sure that the average person will know who to blame for it. HNZ blew over $100 million on a white elephant and National had no idea it was wasted money. If you believe that I’ve a bridge to sell you…
             • In Vino …

               2 June 2018 at 7:52 pm

               But note that Chairman is doing his best to put all the onus onto the current govt. No surprises there.
               • solkta …

                 2 June 2018 at 7:56 pm

                 He really is a crap troll.
               • The Chairman …

                 2 June 2018 at 8:30 pm

                 Rubbish, Vino. See my discussion with Robert above.

                 Moreover, the only onus I’m putting on this current Government is for what they have and haven’t done.

                 Are you seriously going to defend their dropping of the ball?
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   2 June 2018 at 8:31 pm

                   “Rubbish, Vino. See my discussion with Robert above.”
                   Classic.
                 • Incognito …

                   2 June 2018 at 8:41 pm

                   What imaginary ball has the Government dropped this time, in your opinion, of course, The Chairman? Does it ever occur to you that most of the time the ‘ball’ is up in the air and that when it lands it bounces up again back up in the air? That’s a nice little thought experiment, isn’t it?
                   • The Chairman …

                     2 June 2018 at 9:01 pm

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-06-2018/#comment-1489967
                 • Incognito …

                   2 June 2018 at 9:44 pm

                   An apparent device that could possibly be used to dig (resembling moving earth) something that to some extent might be called a hole (or a small indentation in the soil), maybe in the right hands with appropriate guidance and moral support from The Chairman …
               • Robert Guyton …

                 2 June 2018 at 8:32 pm

                 He is, yes.
                 He is, yes.
             • The Chairman …

               2 June 2018 at 8:35 pm

               “I guess we’ll just have to wait & see won’t we.”

               Indeed. However, in the meantime when can apply public pressure to help nudge them onto the right path. Perhaps the Greens will also get on board?
               • In Vino …

                 2 June 2018 at 9:35 pm

                 What do you mean by ‘we’, Paleface?
7. Observer Tokoroa 7

   2 June 2018 at 10:14 am

   Clean is Good

   Any person(s) smoking or drinking any drug, weed, or alcohol should be evicted immediately from any rental or mortgaged Property,

   For the reasons of danger of fire, lack of responsibility, and out breaks of violence.

   These are the standards in work places. They should be the same in rental homes. Or homes with Mortgages.

   Homes are too valuable to give to the careless
   • gsays 7.1

     2 June 2018 at 10:39 am

     Sarcasm isn’t it OT.

     There are some dangerous hobbies too.
     Model airplane making and all that pesky glue…
     No kids in state housing either, they can make a mess.

     No need for insulation, the poor can do star jumps if cold- might help with obesity.

     Cameras in the house’s so the state can clamp down on these ne’er do wells.
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       2 June 2018 at 7:52 pm

       gsays
       +1
       /sarc
   • sabine 7.2

     2 June 2018 at 10:44 am

     Are you then saying that fire risk, lack of responsibility and out breaks of violence are only bed when people are tenants but are ok if they own their house?

     should ditches be considered rentals?
     • Observer Tokoroa 7.2.1

       2 June 2018 at 4:09 pm

       Hi Sabine

       I am saying that any household in which drugs, weed and alcohol are used, the occupants should be removed. For safety reasons, To prevent out breaks of Violence; and because or the inevitable irresponsibility.

       Home is not a Booze Refuge. Or A druggy hole. Or a ditch for brain dead zombies Eviction is the Fix.

       Got it ?
       • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2.1.1

         2 June 2018 at 5:04 pm

         Graham Capill’s penal policies cause crime. Therefore all your property should be confiscated under the Proceeds of Crime Act.

         Fair’s fair: don’t wanna do the time, stop creating more crime.
   • adam 7.3

     2 June 2018 at 11:18 am

     Coffee, it’s a stimulant.

     Sugar.

     People who grow their own vegetables, they are a deep threat to being clean.
8. adam 8

   2 June 2018 at 11:13 am

   So how did this pass under the radar?

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/104331043/hurricane-marias-death-toll-in-puerto-rico-70-times-higher-than-official-count-study-says

   Maybe I was distracted by the B.S. in the media about Roseanne. Or maybe black and brown lives just don’t matter that much.

   Either way, the fact of the matter is – real news out of the USA is becoming hard to come by. With distraction, and deliberately ignoring of issues which actually matter to people, having become the new normal from the corporate media.

   I think we need to be vigilant here in NZ. That said, I’ve been impressed with everyone still staying on top of the Meth Scam by national.
   • sabine 8.1

     2 June 2018 at 12:43 pm

     the ones that are doing the work in PR have been pointing out that the ‘official’ death toll is wrong since the day the orange menage arrived to throw paper towel at people in shelters.

     PR has not had reliable electricity since the storm passed. That includes any and all hospitals, old folks homes and private residences. So anyone who was in intensive care atm of the storm, or in need of a breathing machine or any other life saving machine most likely die.

     You then have the issue of no functioning sewerage and drinking water, bingo more people dying. And as the morgues don’t have electricity either, there is no point bringing your dead there so i would assume that especially in the more remote areas people are just burying their dead and no official count is taken.

     but its ok, PR votes reliably D so why would the orange menace care. Besides, these storms are the new norm and people need to get used to the fact that the government is not there to help, especially the non white people.

     besides, it is not just PR but pretty much any of the US Islands that were hit by the storms, and sadly for the people living under their blue tarps the next hurricane season has arrived.
   • Wayne 8.2

     2 June 2018 at 1:23 pm

     I would call this bullshit. How on earth could 4,500 deaths directly due to a hurricane be “hidden” in a democratic first world country?
     • Stunned mullet 8.2.1

       2 June 2018 at 1:38 pm

       The survey and estimate methodology is indeed ‘interesting’

       https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1803972
     • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.2

       2 June 2018 at 1:47 pm

       I imagine it’s hidden by exactly the same mechanism the National Party uses to perpetrate human rights abuses and shit in hospital walls: lies, prejudice, and hate speech.
       • Stunned Mullet 8.2.2.1

         2 June 2018 at 2:19 pm

         https://karengately.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/internet-troll-1.jpg
     • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.3

       2 June 2018 at 2:39 pm

       However, because they live in a country where the rule of law still applies, they got caught out, just like the National Party. It turns out that with-holding the information was “pretty legal”, just like meth test evictions.

       The Puerto Rican government released data on Friday showing that there were far more deaths in the wake of Hurricane Maria than previously reported.

       The report was released a day after Puerto Rico’s Institute of Statistics filed a lawsuit seeking updated information on fatalities that occurred as a result of the hurricane, which ravaged the island in September.

       …

       The data released Friday shows that there were at least 1,400 additional deaths in the months after Maria struck the island than during the same period the year before…
     • Sabine 8.2.4

       2 June 2018 at 3:06 pm

       an Island without power

       6 month without power
       https://www.npr.org/2018/03/07/591681107/6-months-after-hurricanes-11-percent-of-puerto-rico-is-still-without-power

       and article from right after the Irma and Maria passed

       http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/puerto-rico-hurricane-recovery/os-hurricane-maria-puerto-rico-school-power-comes-back-on-20180117-story.html

       hospitals without power
       https://nexusmedianews.com/as-puerto-ricos-hospitals-languish-without-power-solar-offers-hope-video-a572cc442e23

       https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/us/puerto-rico-power-hospitals.html\

       hospitals running out of everything

       https://www.thedailybeast.com/puerto-ricos-hospitals-running-out-of-everything-and-patients-running-out-of-time

       https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/27/puerto-rico-faces-a-health-crisis-made-worse-as-majority-of-hospitals-are-inadequate

       so essentially just use your brain,

       a country with 3.3 million poeple has lived without reliable electricity, sewerage and clean drinking water for now almost 9 month.
       Hospitals had no electricity for weeks on end.
       Old folk homes had no electricity for weeks on end.
       schools have closed down and to a large part are still closed.
       whole communities have been cut of from aid, and are stil struggling with simply getting the essentials

       The US of A is not a democracy, at the very best ‘if they can keep it’ they are a republic, at the very worst they are currently led by a person and a congress and senate that care very little about brown people in general and certainly not enough to send Fema in to provide help.

       I think the current lot in hte US government is about as unconcerned and depraved about the suffering of poor people as is the lot of the National Party when it comes to poor and brown people here in NZ. Maybe that is why you can’t understand how people dare die in large numbers after two major natural disasters when they have no houses, no electricity, no clean water, no food,no medical care and help etc etc, its the National Party Member in you.
   • NZJester 8.3

     2 June 2018 at 8:44 pm

     Puerto Rico has become a US financial slave colony and does not have the ability to protect itself properly from such disasters. They are not given proper US citizenship and have been sold to ruthless bondholders who they owe a big debt to. Politicians spent more than they received in tax and sold bonds to cover the overspend. In 2014 when three major credit agencies downgraded several bonds issued by Puerto Rico to “junk status” they found themselves unable to borrow more money by issuing more bonds. The United States Congress then enacted a law known as PROMESA, which appointed an oversight board with ultimate control over the commonwealth’s budget and nasty austerity measures have been introduced there. The US Congress as also rallied in support of bondholder’s to strengthen their rights and prevent Puerto Rico from negotiating better terms with the bondholders.
9. Tricledrown 9

   2 June 2018 at 1:08 pm

   Streaming cow poo farmers are businesses any other businesses creating pollution in waterways are fined and made to stop immediately and also have to pay for the clean up.
   Farmers vote for the party of personal responsibility but like their Party never take any responsibility.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • gsays 9.1

     2 June 2018 at 3:13 pm

     I would accept your notion of polluters getting fined and held accountable if the local authorities (councils) weren’t lead and staffed by fellow dairy farmers.
10. JanM 10

    2 June 2018 at 1:12 pm

    This appealed to me as a guide to avoid the ad hominem arguments that sometimes have a negative effect on a topic discussed here:
    https://www.facebook.com/brainpickings.mariapopova/posts/10155635206195745
    • Sacha 10.1

      2 June 2018 at 4:39 pm

      That approach relies on all participants arguing in good faith and having a shared purpose of increasing shared understanding in the first place. Respectfully, that is often not what we see here.
11. Tricledrown 11

    2 June 2018 at 1:15 pm

    Trump is being his usual self Porto Rico is in deep debt and this is Trump’s Karma kill innocent peasants who are not allwhite move on ignore.
    Trump is a nasty tyrant.
12. Bill 12

    2 June 2018 at 2:53 pm

    Not surprising the US vetoed such a UN resolution, but…

    US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley rejected the Kuwaiti-authored resolution – which sought “international protection” for Palestinian civilians – as “grossly one-sided” and “morally bankrupt”, saying it failed to mention Hamas’s role in instigating violence.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-israel-palestine-un-resolution-violence-gaza-conflict-hamas-nikki-haley-a8379866.html
13. Robert Guyton 13

    2 June 2018 at 6:04 pm

    “But there is a first principle question about how the government can spend $886m over ten years to compensate farmers for Mycoplasma bovis and deny compensation to state house tenants. Both are suffering harm due to no fault of their own. The question of where fault lies needs to be considered, but it’s hard to see from a justice principle why one should be helped and the other not.”
    Pundit
    • Graeme 13.1

      3 June 2018 at 10:22 am

      A rather revealing piece, but from a rathe managerial / governance point of view. I was struck by Graeme Edgeler’s comment which put it all to bed;

      by Graeme Edgeler on June 02, 2018
      Graeme Edgeler
      “”Any board would have been irresponsible not to take a cautious approach in the face of disputed science about potential harm to its tenants, especially when they include many of New Zealand’s most vulnerable.”

      In what sense is taking a decision to make families with young children homeless (a massive risk factor for all sorts of harms) being cautious?”

      https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/meth-house-clean-up-only-just-begun

      Watkins comment that was quoted by Edgeler encapsulates the thinking of many managers in New Zealand, and probably the world to risk. They manage the perceived risk, rather than the core business. The board, and management, saw themselves as managers of houses, rather than a houser of people.
14. Rosemary McDonald 14

    2 June 2018 at 6:09 pm

    Congratulations to the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas Islands for unanimously voting to allow adults to grow their own cannabis for medical use.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/358764/cnmi-doctor-advocates-marijuana-as-medicine

    The sky has not fallen….
15. OnceWasTIm 15

    2 June 2018 at 7:14 pm

    Oi Oi Oi ozzie Ozzie Ozzie
    Ova Ear:
    https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-31-05-2018/#comment-1489494,
    but then. hmmmmpf, yea/nah movin’ on “goan forwid: ssssssssssssssmetakef ekshully

    So much shit and so little time left to consume And once we had a political party to represent us.
16. eco maori 16

    3 June 2018 at 9:21 am

    R&R Jacinda is in this for the long game plan one were people work smarter not harder
    just because there is no mention of Maori in the Labour lead coalition goverment does not mean Maori have not gained from the new Goverment they have done more for Maori in six month than natinal did in 9 years in my eyes . ka kite ano
    P.S I like the elderly gents views
    • eco maori 16.1

      3 June 2018 at 9:56 am

      The Hui some people in clive have used the Te mata peak debate to troll Maori .
      The Hasting council should apologize to Ngati Kahungunu for this problem.
      There is a lot of tupuna connected to Te mata peak the giants of our past
      Look how the council handled the water issues they tryed to hide it and it bit there arrogant—– ana to kai.
      I quite like Andrew Littles way of consulting more Maori on the issues with Treaty settlements as just a few Maori have a say . I don’t know anyone whom has gained from these settlements .So i say the tangata who are part of the settlements are the only one that gain from treaty settlements
      ka kite ano
      • eco maori 16.1.1

        3 June 2018 at 6:44 pm

        Good evening Newshub wow flooding in Auckland Eco Maori just left Auckland last nite its been ————–down in Vagas today.
        Why was dairy dack dune aloud to let this drug be sold legally for years now we have addicts hooked on the——–ask the national party he received his karma .
        Google new ap sounds good it will be good for people going to country’s where they don’t know the cultures I would have been stuffed getting around Auckland without Google maps some mite try and use this against me but I have been there long enough to have a fair idea of were I am.
        Many thanks to Queen Elisabeth for her Royal tree canopy’s project this is brilliant trees live for hundreds and thousands of years OUR forests must be saved .
        There seem to be a bit more bad publicity been sprayed about OUR All Blacks .
        Eco Maori Knows who is doing this there are people who have the medias ears and inside information I bet little thing like those happen to sports people all the time the difference is some are pushing these small issues .
        Ka kite ano P.S Lebron James looked——– at his team m8 blunder
17. eco maori 17

    3 June 2018 at 8:25 pm

    Dancing with the stars Eco Maori is a big fan of AC/DC Thunder Struck is up there .When I went to Te Tairawhiti I was listening to Susy on the radio ???????????? .
    Rodger from the rock is my pick everyone knows this kia kaha m8.
    Ka kite

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