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Open mike 02/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 2nd, 2020 - 249 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

249 comments on “Open mike 02/06/2020 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Herald examines Trump's twitterwar: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12336072

    According to Gallup, three-quarters of Americans say they have seen, read or heard about Trumps tweets "a lot, or a fair amount". That's despite only 26 per cent of Americans having an account themselves, and just 30 per cent of that cohort – roughly 8 per cent of the population – following Trump. "Fifty-five per cent of those who follow Trump on Twitter say they read all or most of his tweets, with another 25 per cent saying they read some," Gallup said.

    "Taking all of this into account, 4 per cent of Americans overall have a Twitter account, follow Trump's account and read all or most of his tweets," Gallup said. "The percentage reading Trump's tweets directly rises to 6 per cent when including those who say they read some of his postings."

    So the small numbers who actually read him get leveraged up massively due to msm recycling. Then there's his leverage of the Republicans:

    "Although most Americans don't like him, Trump has an 80 per cent approval rating among Republicans," Associate Professor Opal wrote for The Conversation. "He uses this popularity, along with his Twitter feed, to bully Republican dissidents into silence."

    "Having alienated almost every other demographic, they must stick with their Trump-loving base. They have no one else. And Trump will do everything he can to win in November, unburdened by any sense of propriety, fairness or facts."

    So there's the strategic basis for his campaign: Trump vs America. Now we wait to see if the penny drops in the minds of Americans. To prevent that happening, he needs to start a war somewhere, like Iran. Dominance is his modus operandi. Alpha male. Primate deep psychology – watch it induce mass submission.

    • greywarshark 1.1

      That's unfair to primates. Gorillas apparently are quite peace loving and sit around eating leaves. But then chimpanzees can raid other family groups and eat their babies. But even so, I think there is some deep-held atavistic psychology that comes out in humans, a blood-thirsty viciousness apparently only just held in check by a thin layer of so-called civilisation. History shows our higher intelligence has led to a more clever application of aggression when useful to the people in power, and which often is admired by many without power.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

        some deep-held atavistic psychology that comes out in humans, a blood-thirsty viciousness apparently only just held in check by a thin layer of so-called civilisation

        Have you encountered the alien intervention theory? Been around for decades in some form or another. The genetic version postulates tinkering with the genome in prehistory, the basic idea being that we are partly designed/engineered, partly natural.

        The question of which animal species prey upon themselves is an interesting one, regardless. I've not seen any authoritative comprehensive documentation of this.

        • Nic 181

          “Tinkering with the genome in prehistory?” This sounds like a plug from the Book of Mormon, or was it the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

          It follows the conceited line of thinking that we are so prefect it is inconceivable that we arose by chance.

          The fossil record supports chance!

          • Dennis Frank

            Sounds like you may have been taught by a schoolteacher. 😉 Books written by scientists to explore the holes in Darwinist theory are usually worth reading.

            The missing links have long been the main weakness of the theory. Mutation & selection documented by intermediary forms is persuasive. Trouble is, there are so many damn sudden appearances of new species without any sign of evolutionary transition to explain them. So chance remains a bit player in the overall game…

        • greywarshark

          I think I read it in one of Jane Goodall's reports from her eye witness accounts of chimpanzee life.

          The alien idea – it smacks of us never wanting to look at ourselves too closely. It’s sort of ducking out of the idea that our free will has led us to the edge of the pit, either the victim to be shot or the perpetrator, it’s the human inside; an actor in a failed boxoffice epic.

        • The Al1en

          Have you encountered the alien intervention theory?

          Wasn't me, and you can't prove anything

          • Dennis Frank

            😊 Don't worry, I wouldn't even try. Wrong planet. Back in the '90s I subscribed to Nexus awhile & got entertained by all the competing scenarios, until I cottoned on to the trend towards delusionality & bailed out. But the theory that more than one alien race/species from different galactic origins & with different motives have visited &/or intervened here in the distant past &/or currently does a certain je ne sais quoi about it. Aesthetic appeal?

            • The Al1en

              Given the number of galaxies, stars and the likelihood of Goldilocks planets in our known universe, the statistical chances of other extraterrestrial life is a good bet. I’m long out of the loop, so don’t know who else is here, but if I had to choose what's more likely, intervention or intelligent design creationism, I'd go for ET over JC any day.

              As it happens, with a flat battery, I'm only hanging around until 2137 when time travel gets invented and I can go home. It's a tough road, but at least the monkey men get the climate sorted, eventually.

              • halfcrown

                "but if I had to choose what's more likely, intervention or intelligent design creationism, I'd go for ET over JC any day."


              • Incognito

                The Gods Were Astronauts

                • Andre

                  Isn't that the title of a book by Erich von Daniken?

                  • Incognito


                    • Andre

                      Y'know, if we're going with the idea that ancient astronauts were messing around with our forebears, I'd kinda like to think that instead of boring little green men in spacesuits that it was an entity more like Cthulhu.

                    • Incognito []

                      You don’t get to choose your parents nor your ancestors.

        • Obtrectator

          "Have you encountered the alien intervention theory?"

          Only in fiction. "Quatermass And The Pit" – top-notch sci-fi TV series of the late 1950s. Check it out.

          • halfcrown

            "Only in fiction. "Quatermass And The Pit" – top-notch sci-fi TV series of the late 1950s. Check it out."

            Brilliant. They don't make television like that today

  2. Dawn Trenberth 2

    I am curious as to the though processes of those who organized and went on the march yesterday. How did they come to the decision to break the level two restrictions. I was very concerned because there are good reasons we are not at level one. The virus can take two weeks to show itself. Some people particularly young people can have very mild or no symptoms and be infectious. I understand the anger at what is going on in the US but why?

    • RedBaronCV 2.1

      I too wondered who thought this type of gathering was a good idea and whether there was one nationwide organiser or group or different groups in each town. What is happening in the US is awful and I'm not fussed on armed cops locally either but how does potentially infecting others when we are almost clear help?
      Also do we know if anybody was being funded to do this?

      • Craig H 2.1.1

        Having seen a few of the Facebook events pop up in some of the political groups, they looked spontaneous and independently organised.

    • Leighton 2.2

      I fully get why the police/government decided not to impose themselves on the situation as they could have, but really the organisers have to take a long hard look in the mirror as to whether it was worth putting New Zealand lives and all the investment we have put into eliminating Covid-19 at risk for a grandstanding protest that those in a position to improve the American situation would have taken less than zero notice of.

    • Dennis Frank 2.3

      Could be a case of the heart short-circuiting the brain, Dawn. Easy to empathise with the protestors, and I think their passion overcame common sense.

      More concerning is the apparent police collusion. Looks like the supervising officer decided not to enforce social distancing.

      I reckon Level 2 is now a joke. Civil disobedience has prevailed. If we can't trust the cops to support the govt, no point the govt maintaining their pretence. The people have taken the lead to eliminate public safety mechanisms, and govt must follow their lead…

      • Dawn Trenberth 2.3.1

        I dont believe it is a joke. The majority are abiding by the rules. Not logical that we should all break the rules because some people have. If anyone knows someone who went on the march they should ask them to stay away for two weeks.

        • Dennis Frank

          That would be a good idea. Peer pressure can be effective. But it seems to me human nature is the problem here – resurgence hasn't become evident, and community transmission didn't get proven as far as I can tell. People have jumped to the conclusion that the precautionary principle is insufficient. Unless the protest produce new infections, they won't have reason to change their minds.

          Oh, the AM Show just put up the graphic of their poll result: 66% believe we ought to be on level 1 now.

          • observer

            If you're quoting the spam then you really don't have a clue.

            At level 4 we heard a lot of noise about moving down. Actual polls (not the spam) showed 80%+ support at remaining.

            At level 3 … ditto.

            91% supported the government response in both the TV1 and TV3 real polls.

            I could give you a dozen links if you've been asleep for months, just let me know.

            • Dennis Frank

              91% supported the government response in both the TV1 and TV3 real polls.

              That was then, this is now. Let me know when you learn how to tell the difference between then & now, huh? I'll clap loudly.

              So you feel AM Show viewers don't represent kiwis? So what? You'll be vastly outnumbered by those who do.

          • SPC

            AM show polls … I'd not regard that as a great sample.

            But I do sense that the governments last statement of position was seen as too conservative, given no community transmission for a month despite coming out of lockdown.

            The greater fear now is for the economy/jobs.

            The PM has now placed emphasis on the government deciding to go to Level 1 on June 8, rather than no later than June 22. Which fits better with the balanced approach it has taken since we came out of lockdown.

      • observer 2.3.2

        " Looks like the supervising officer decided not to enforce social distancing."

        So you recommend mass arrests? Snatch squads grabbing people? Turning an entirely peaceful protest into conflict? Deploy hundreds of cops, bundling people into vans? Hoping nobody resists?

        There's a police commander's job going for you in the USA.

        Fortunately the NZ police were smarter than that.

        • Nic the NZer

          That kind of response would seem to send a message of New Zealands solidarity with the US regime rather than its citizens. Seems NZ police have much more sense than that.

        • Dennis Frank

          Pathetic response. Smart policing is doing what the situation required: liaison with the organisers to enable a dignified social-distancing protest. Anyone could figure that out. Try using your brain for a change.

          • observer

            My brain says: "How do we control thousands of people?"

            How many cops needed? How much do they break distancing, in order to enforce distancing? How do we deal with non-compliant protestors, who are hardly there because they are deferential to cops?

            They did liaise with the organisers. There was contact tracing and appeals for distancing. People were told where to get masks. But … the people are not a hivemind. If 95% behave and 5% don't, what happens?

            One image of a cop and protestor in a struggle is the headline leading the news. (Source: all media, since forever).

            • Anne

              Could be a case of the heart short-circuiting the brain, Dawn.

              Precisely. Note: they were mostly young people. We were all young once so give em a break. Looks like the police did.

              Apart from insufficient distancing by some, it was well managed and respectful.

            • Dennis Frank

              If 95% behave and 5% don't, what happens?

              Good question, but my impressions were formed by wide shots of the crowd, and they showed 100% misbehaviour – anyone conforming didn't become evident to the eye. It is true that such impressions can mislead, however.

        • Gabby

          Or, taking names and quietly arresting later.

      • weka 2.3.3

        I reckon Level 2 is now a joke. Civil disobedience has prevailed. If we can't trust the cops to support the govt, no point the govt maintaining their pretence. The people have taken the lead to eliminate public safety mechanisms, and govt must follow their lead…

        Oh great, we're back to the let's sacrifice elderly and disabled people conversation again.

        The 'people' don't get to decide, because we elect social democratic governments (albeit neoliberalised ones) to take top level decisions that the people aren't in a position to make.

        I can't imagine Labour extending L2 for no good reason, and I assume the reason is that the science is unclear if we are covid-free yet.

        So fine, go to L1 early but if we get another outbreak, then I hope that there will be more support for disabled and elderly people this time.

      • halfcrown 2.3.4

        "I reckon Level 2 is now a joke. Civil disobedience has prevailed. If we can't trust the cops to support the govt, no point the govt maintaining their pretence. The people have taken the lead to eliminate public safety mechanisms, and govt must follow their lead…

        So I take it then pal according to you, if a load of hoons drive down a road at 100ks where the limit is 50ks for safety reasons the limit should be altered as they have taken the lead to eliminate public safety mechanisms.

    • Nic the NZer 2.4

      Which part of the country? I think the biggest thing under level 2 was the schools opening bringing hundreds of pupils into daily contact. Also, if it was fewer than 100 and they recorded details its within the present sports group restrictions (I played a football match yesterday, this is allowed now). Its possible they were more or less physically distant while marching also.

      • Dawn Trenberth 2.4.1

        The Auckland one was the most concerning. We also have a cluster which still has an active case.

        • I Feel Love

          Funded by George Soros!!! Bill Gates, etc… not helpful from me but I disagree it was unnoticed overseas, the fact even little ol' NZ cares about what's going on matters. Even Taika got slammed for his "eloquent black man" comment.

      • weka 2.4.2

        The idea is that marching (I def saw photos with no physical distancing and MSM seemed to be saying no-one was) and protesting are high risk activities because the shouting and calling spreads droplets further. People touch stuff too, and how many people are still practicing not touching their faces? Why was there no requirement to wear a mask? And so on.

        Also, no contact tracing (other than the app people).

    • Gabby 2.5

      I figured it was bandwagoning showboating, just couldn't resist the chance to be right-on. Seems more likely than a conspiracy of jetboat operators and tourist tat sellers to jemmy open the airports.

  3. RedBaronCV 3

    After some of the weekends events and news reports – should we have one government managed quarantine system with a well known set of operating rules and using suitable premises? Or does Minister Twyford get to sign off groups of people for entry who are basically designing their own quarantine locations?

    Secondly is there going to be a chilling economic effect from a constant influx of say chartered aeroplanes of individuals from virus ridden countries – to the extent that locals continue to maintain a background higher level of anxiety about being infected and therefore curtail their own activities?

    • greywarshark 3.1

      Good point. I am still wary and try and keep distance, but that only works when the vast majority are doing the same. And sometimes I forget and comfort myself with the knowledge that we have eliminated the virus. Yet testing at entry points to the country and reports of inconsistent isolation and lack of take-up of face masks leaves me uncertain again. Anxiety reigns especially when the young people from the individualistic, entitled generation are heard so often dissing the control methods as unnecessary.

  4. TJ 4

    Old Winston needs to go. How can you have a deputy saying things against the government, during a global pandemic, using flawed logic? He's lost his marbles and should be removed. Call a snap election if you must, why not. The incumbent will win. Give the morons in the street their level one, call a snap election, win the election based on your bribes, both monetary and intangible "freedoms", sit back, relax, straight back onto twitter and Yap App for magazine style governance. I'm getting the hang of central politics in the Brave New World. Literally anyone can do this.

    • observer 4.1

      He hasn't lost his marbles. He's targeting 5%. Especially soft Nats who are hearing nothing from their own leader.

      • woodart 4.1.1

        quite correct observer. winston is going to be the big winner this election, with many nat voters holding their noses ,and voting for winston.

        • Incognito

          Not necessarily. NZF might get over the 5% threshold and they might even get more seats than in 2017, but will they be Kingmaker again? If they’re not, or not the only one, they’ll lose their leverage during coalition negotiations. In 2017, National had a lot of leverage and yet they missed out.

  5. dv 5

    So will the announcement be we will consider L1 in 2 weeks after the incubation time

    • SPC 5.1

      The PM has indicated a decision on June 8 – and the normal two days notice – Thus June 10 barring any new cases.

      • Enough is Enough 5.1.1

        It would be nice to know what level 1 is?

        At the moment it is just a phrase. The government hasn't given us the rules so it is difficult for anyone to say we should be at "Level 1".

        The rules for level 2 have been relaxed gradually over the past 3 weeks so it is always a moving target.

        I know there is enormous pressure coming from the sports and arts communities to allow crowds back into their events. So I think the only change will be crowds and packed pubs. Are we expecting anything else?

        • SPC

          Level 1 was specified at the beginning of this. It's a timing thing – the first phase of the wage subsidy ends June 12.

          Even this past weekend hospitality and tourism were limited by the easing Level 2 rules.



          • Enough is Enough

            What do you mean it was specified at the beginning of this?

            Under level 1 will I be able to go and watch the rugby at Eden Park, attend a concert at Mt Smart or attend a mass protest up Queen st.

            None of this is clear yet so I don't know why people are screaming we should be at Level 1 when we don't know what that is.

            • SPC

              What each Level – 1 to 4, specifies was made known months ago.

              Under level 1 will I be able to go and watch the rugby at Eden Park, attend a concert at Mt Smart or attend a mass protest up Queen st.

              Three ticks. There are no restrictions on gatherings or movement at Level 1.


              • Enough is Enough

                We have certainly not known for months what each level meant. As we have moved through the levels, the government has defined them days before we enter a new 'level'.

                Level 2 was a phrase we all knew about since mid-March, but it wasn't until 7 May that we were advised exactly what it meant.


                Likewise the bullet points you have linked to for level 1 hardly tell us what we can and can't do. For example can you please clarify what this means:

                "Border entry measures to minimise risk of importing COVID-19 cases"

                What are those measures?

                So to get back to my original point, we need to know what level 1 means exactly, which I am sure we will find out in the coming days.

                • xanthe

                  EiE of course we dont know the exact specifics of each level, that is by design and is an important feature. We dont know everything about the virus behaviour and there is no way to predict the exact situation at any point in the future. To work is MUST respond dynamically to externals

                  • Enough is Enough

                    No shit Sherlock

                    That's why it was premature for idiots to call for a movement to an undefined level.

          • Poission

            Even this past weekend hospitality and tourism were limited by the easing Level 2 rules.

            They are also limited by the perception of a significant part of the population,that there is still underlying risk,and discretionary businesses are always fragile.

            The arguments for opening of borders,level 1 etc, by politicians and lobbys, are fighting for their relevance,not the collective good of the people of NZ.

            • SPC

              We face future austerity because of the cost of loss of economic activity/unemployment. That will not be to our collective good either.

              Personally I'd have the world's nation states print its pandemic cost money – and commit to using the "saved" resource to manage transition to GW

              • Poission

                We do not face austerity,NZ households have never had so much money sitting in bank accounts in NZ (192 billion in cash at the 30 may)

                It is the affirmation of confidence of the NZ public to spend (rather then save) or to invest in businesses that offer resilience under the new social contract.

                • SPC

                  We do not face austerity

                  That's news to many individuals and businesses.

                  And I was referring to the austerity that has led to our underfunded infrastructure and public services (such as health) over decades (the 2008-2017 austerity the latest period). It won't get better going from 20% to 50% debt to GDP. We do face return to austerity, because of the bill (if we adhere the neo-liberal rules that constrain government).

                  Confidence in safety to be active in the community and the confidence to spend/invest are in this instance inter-connected. One occurs with being safe from the virus, the other involves a more open economy. A pandemic makes this a tricky balance.

                  • Poission

                    Recessions like runs on banks are self fulfilling prophecies,if business lobbys prefer layoffs rather then shareholders taking a hit on dividends say,they will fulfill their own expectations.

                    If it was a shock ,rather then a persistent downtown however,then it may be a trim rather then a number one.

                    Data suggest the former,and policy helped bridge the divide.


                  • Paddington

                    If you seriously think the 2008-17 period was characterised by austerity, you need to get out more often.

                    • SPC

                      Yeah the risible pay round for nurses and the understaffed wards was nothing.

                    • In Vino

                      Yes, get out of your own right-wing cocoon, Paddington.

                      Austerity so that Bill English could pretend to 'balance the books' meant that Police were so underfunded that they had to quietly give up doing Alcohol checkpoints.

                      With much noise, a National Govt had heroically (and cost-free) lowered the drink-driving alcohol limits. But then they starved the Police.

                      A few years later, they had given NZ the distinction of being the only country so far to have lowered limits, but had a subsequent increase in alcohol-related accidents. Other countries had had the brains to increase the number of alcohol check-points, but not our good old National Govt.

                      Add to that sewage coming through a hospital ceiling and drainage through hospital walls; school buildings run down…

                      No Austerity, huh?

                      Running down of social health is what I call it.

                    • Paddington

                      "Yeah the risible pay round for nurses and the understaffed wards was nothing."

                      Between 2008 and 2017, health spending increased in nominal terms by 44%, in real terms by 23% and in per capita terms by 10%. So you can quote anecdotes all you like, but the stats don't lie.

                    • Paddington

                      "Running down of social health is what I call it."

                      Between 2008 and 2017, health spending increased in nominal terms by 44%, in real terms by 23% and in per capita terms by 10%. So you can quote anecdotes all you like, but the stats don't lie.

                    • Incognito []

                      Reads like an anecdote to me, in two comments, no less, for emphasis, no doubt. Unfortunately, you did not provide a link to your wonderful and compelling stats so we just have to assume you got it from the National Party Facebook page or KB. Maybe you rectify your omission, yes?

                    • McFlock

                      I'd be interested in seeing DHB deficits by those measures over the same period.

                    • Paddington

                      I'm not sure what those numbers are, McFlock, but the DHB deficits are ballooning at the moment:

                      "New figures, quietly dropped on the Ministry of Health's website yesterday, shows the total deficit across all 20 DHBs for the first five months of the financial year sits at more than $230 million.

                      That's almost $60 million higher than the deficit over the same five-month period the year prior and $166 million higher than the same period in 2017."


                      I happen to think our health system is world class, but our appetite for health spending is voracious.

                    • Paddington

                      "Look, Mum, I can link! "

                      Yep, the numbers are huge. It's interesting that the spend to GDP is about the same in 2017 as 2008, considering the rate of economic growth post the GFC.

                    • Incognito []

                      You got the hint, almost?

                    • McFlock

                      I mean, it's interesting, but my DHB has been running deficits for many years. If it spends its budget allocation plus $20mil, does that count as another $20mil in spending or not? And if it gets another $10mil the following year, but still has the same costs so has a $10mil deficit, does that count as an "increase" in funding? And how much of an aberration has my DHB been over the last 15 years or whatever?

                      I have googled, got lots of links about dhb funding, but very little about DHB debt over the period – increased a lot over 2018/19, but before that?

                      Meh, merely a mild interest late at night. I'll leave it. Answers to questions close to the questions that were actually asked are quite tiring and just another rabbit hole to distract from the bleeding obvious.

                    • Paddington

                      The funding of DHB deficits must be included in the crown accounts at some stage, because they are another from of government spending.

                    • McFlock

                      Must be. At some stage.

                      Fills me with so much trust that a reduction in DHB "debt" to the govt isn't touted as an increase in funding, even though there might be zero effect on the ground. /sarc

  6. Sanctuary 6

    The march organisers should be prosecuted for yesterdays flagrant breach of the level 2 lockdown rules. I guess they'll get all high and mighty on the moral imperative, but they are no different in this to the idiots on the right who feel their right have been breached in the last few months.

    These are the rules. Except for those afflicted with a performative stupidity, they are simple to understand. If you break the rules, you will be prosecuted. Simple.

    • Tiger Mountain 6.1

      Even a month ago I would have agreed Sanctuary.

      No full excuse from me though, and morality aside, people all over the country apart from many seniors are milling about like it was xmas eve. Supermarket ques are gone etc. The march and rally organisers highly encouraged mask wearing, and are running an online attendance register.

      • observer 6.1.1

        They broke the rules, obviously.

        Still, we've got to admit that there's an amusing twist here – the righties shout "Dictator Ardern" but never make it as far as protesting (possibly because any such protest by them would not even get close to the 100 limit).

        In the end, the first protest that challenged the Evil Leftie rules was … by the Evil Lefties.

      • weka 6.1.2

        has there been anything on the register numbers vs attendee numbers?

    • Janet 6.2

      “Black Lives Count”

      In NZ it is LIFE counts , that is why we have endured the last two months in Lockdowns. The emotive non-savants, led by Shalene Williams clearly think LIFE does not count in NZ. She broke our country’s rules and should be prosecuted accordingly. She could have been a bit more creative and come up with a law abiding way to make her message.

      • greywarshark 6.2.1

        Janet the world and its woes still goes on while we have come out of a pandemic with little trauma compared to the shocking sight of a policeman in a supposed civilised country with his knee on someone's neck.

        We watched a murder by an upholder of laura norder. The 'emotive non-savants' were moved in their hearts and brains for the suffering people in another country, while also trying to fit in with the controls at the end of our quarantine period. With you apparently any rule wins over true humanity, no matter what the situation is.

        • Janet

          I was as appalled as most at the apparent murder of this American man and I am well aware that the USA policing system and the way all Americans relate to the police there is totally different from ours, thank goodness. Listening to our medical experts, we are NOT out of the pandemic yet.

          There were other ways to express “true humanity “ It did not have to mimic the current American way where even the Covid situation is not controlled to help save lives.

          • greywarshark

            But Janet you have such faith in our police behaviour being beyond reproach, which is unjustified. Part of the concern of the protesting crowd is self-centred, they wanted it to be noted that we will not go under the USA style of punitive policing without public protest. There are already cases of very bad behaviour by our police in the near past and those who think, worry about it and don't brush it to one side.

            • Janet

              Don’t know where you get the idea that I too do not keep a leery eye on policing developments, but I do take some comfort that it is more tailored on the British system than the American one. There have always been isolated cases of bad behavior in the police through the years. The concern now is that they do not become armed and perhaps the recent activities of the police are more in response to the truckload of New Zealand bred but Australian raised, criminals that Australia dumped on us recently. Whatever, Level 2 is not a time to protest in mass on the street, for whatever reason – if you value LIFE.

              • greywarshark

                Thanks for your reply. I was sure there would be one. It is a great blessing to be so sure about one's certainties.

  7. SPC 7

    The mass event street gathering – 1000 etc is nothing less than a full-on trial of our virus free status (which would inform the Cabinet decision June 8).

    The government should invite those involved to come in for testing.

    Hopefully it will be like WOMAD and the last round of the Super comp, major crowd events with no transmission.

    • Ad 7.1

      The Auckland ones were protesting outside the US embassy, they now have a CIA file on all of them anyway.

  8. Ad 8

    It would be a weird day for political theory if US states tilted the Coronavirus trend downwards with statewide lockdowns caused by mass riots rather than medically-induced social distancing orders.

    • SPC 8.1

      And somewhere else the government met demand for a confirmation of the chance for an earlier move to Level 1 because of a mass crowd protest …

  9. So images of chaos in a far off land will get middle class kiwis onto the streets. But the theft of our own country by global corporate power, and the displacement of the whole millennial generation, barely makes the news.

    The race narrative is important but Class war is the insidious corruption that sets one against the other. The riots are a great distraction from the greatest theft in history; the looting of the US Treasury by Wall St criminals

    • Ad 9.1

      The Auckland ones were all under 30. Stop fucking moaning.

      • I Feel Love 9.1.1

        +100 Ad.

      • greywarshark 9.1.2

        Why diss roblogic and swear. Surely that comment is relevant.

        • roblogic

          expected. leftist identitarians get off on moral indignation and can’t handle criticism

          • greywarshark

            Maybe lefties are too pure to indulge in ordinary coarse diversions and so the 'moral indignation' is undiluted relief from all that probity.

          • Ad

            Your class analysis failure is being left behind by the generation on the streets.

            You could always print out all your labels, wait for rain, set fire to them and see if they keep you warm for half an hour.

            Failing that, just try to keep up.

          • weka

            Ad is more old school left I think.

      • Gabby 9.1.3

        You mean the kids are too dumb to get globalisation?

  10. swordfish 10

    Roy Morgan are back in Town.

    Confirming the sweeping realignment:

    • Dennis Frank 10.1

      Yippee, Greens up to 7, Ad will be thrilled! And National even lower – but taken before the Todd took over, looks like. ACT above NZF will get feathers a-flutter all over the place, and that 4% for others (TOP, MP, NC, SNZ I guess) could indicate something happening.

      • swordfish 10.1.1

        Greens probably shouldn't be getting too excited just yet, Dennis.. Roy Morgan are the most Green-friendly of public Pollsters … even more so than UMR:

        Green Party-Support ratings


        Jan …….. RM 10.5% …. UMR 7.0% … TV3 5.6%

        Feb …….. RM 10.5% … UMR 9.0% … TV1 5.0%

        March … RM 11.5%

        April ……RM 7.0% … UMR 5.0%

        May ……. RM 7.0% … TV3 5.5% … TV1 4.7%

        Roy Morgan were similarly the constant high-end outlier for the Greens throughout much of the final term of the Key-English Govt.

        Unsurprisingly, then, the final Pre-Election RM has overstated Green support by roughly 3 percentage points at each of the last 3 General Elections.

        So possibly just a little early to break open the Tofu & Spirulina Punch.

        • ianmac

          Swordfish. Have Morgans been poling since January? Because the graph shows Labour already out in front from February and the steadily upwards.

          • swordfish

            Yep … apparently on the quiet … then released all the data yesterday.

            Here's comparisons between Pollsters in 2020:

            ………………… Lab ……… Govt ………….. Nat …….. Oppo


            RM …………. 40.0% ….. 53.0% ………… 40.0% …… 43.0%

            UMR ………. 41.0% …… 55.0% ……….. 39.0% ……. 41.0%

            TV3 ………… 42.5% ….. 51.7% ……….. 43.3% ……. 45.1%

            ………………… Lab ……… Govt ………….. Nat …….. Oppo


            RM ………… 40.5% ……… 56.0% ………. 37.0% ……. 40.5%

            UMR ………. 42.0% …….. 57.0% ……….. 38.0% ……. 41.0%

            TV1 ………… 41.0% ……… 49.3% ………. 46.0% ……. 47.7%


            ………………… Lab ……… Govt ………….. Nat …….. Oppo


            RM …………. 42.5% …….. 57.0% ……… 37.0% ……. 40.5%


            ………………… Lab ……… Govt ………….. Nat …….. Oppo


            RM … …….. 55.0% ……… 64.5% ………. 30.5% …….. 33.0%

            UMR ………. 49.0% ……… 59.0% ………. 35.0% ……. 37.0%


            ………………… Lab ……… Govt ………….. Nat …….. Oppo


            RM ………… 56.5% …….. 66.0% ……….. 26.5% ……. 30.0%

            TV3 ……….. 56.5% ……… 64.7% ………. 30.6% ……. 32.4%

            TV1 ……….. 59.0% ……… 66.6% ……….. 29.0% …… 31.2%

    • This confirms the Covid effect on Labour and National.

      Polling was done April 27 – May 24. Todd Muller took over as National leader on 22 May so too soon to indicate anything, but he has had a poor start.

      Compared to Colmar Brunton and Reid Research the Greens have been high.

      NZ First are consistently polling under the threshold.

      The polls rewarded Ardern and Labour over their handling of Covid, there was wide public support. But now there appears to be wide public moving on from level 2 restrictions and Ardern appears to be dithering.

      She showed support for yesterday's protests, saying she understood 'the sentiment and urgency' (on RNZ), she didn't criticise the breaching of level 2, and said it was simply a police matter but seemed to agree with the police not acting.

      She has sort of said Cabinet will bring forward consideration of lowering to level 1, but not until next week. She risks losing the public over this, and perhaps some of the poll indicated support.

      [Fixed typo in user handle]

      • Enough is Enough 10.2.1

        Peters current strategy seems to be portaying himself as the voice of reason within cabinet. He came out early and confirmed that the government stood up to MoH to allow Kiwis to return to New Zealand when the borders closed.

        He is now banging on about going to Level 1 immediately, and trying to differentiate himself from Labour.

        The trouble with that is the polls clearly show the public is well on board and agreed with the government decisions. Tribal Nats will always vote National but everyone else is in support.

        I can't see Winston's strategy working.

    • swordfish 10.3

      Govt Bloc vs Oppo Bloc

      Roy Morgan

      • observer 10.3.1

        The poll is already out of date, but who cares?

        Newshub reports as if it were the latest poll.

        In the linked story, they get around to mentioning the dates eventually (and in this case the dates really matter). But headlines always beat details.

        This will probably happen in the campaign, with RM polls especially. September headline: "party X slumps/surges!'. Even if it happened a month ago.

        • AB

          Yep – just confirms the previous two. Doesn't tell us what we want to know – is the Toddy-bounce the 10-15% they want, or has strapping on the Muller-charger given them a more modest 3-5% of kilowattage? And most of all, are there any signs of deceased felines?

        • swordfish

          The poll is already out of date, but who cares?

          Yeah, but useful for telling us precisely when the hefty shift in voter sentiment took place. (given that RM are the only Public Pollster sampling on a Monthly basis).

          Looks like the main thrust occurred between late March & mid April…. right in the very heart of the Level 4 Lockdown. People feeling satisfied that the Govt was taking decisive action to protect them (even if some of us felt they were a little slower than they should've been) & that we were demonstrably doing significantly better than most of the rest of the World. Wouldn't be surprised if it's older softly-aligned Nats that have decisively swung in Labour's direction … with National's current calls for an immediate move to Level 1 alienating them even further..

          Also makes Winston's gambit on the issue interesting. Is he forsaking his elderly base in order to attract pragmatic Nats (of all ages) potentially voting strategically for NZF to provide a counterweight to any leftward movement in the next Ardern-led Govt (a la 2002) ?

          • Anne

            Looks like the main thrust occurred between late March & mid April…. right in the very heart of the Level 4 Lockdown.

            Bear in mind though at that point the 1pm briefing by Ardern and Bloomfield was virtually the highlight of the day. Every man, woman and child in the country was glued to some form of telecommunication.

            The publicity was all encompassing and something pollies can normally only dream about. So, as has already been expressed many times, Labour's current stratospheric polling will not last through to the election.

            They should still win by a country mile but 72 MPs? Never.

            • swordfish

              There's no doubt this is an apex & they're extremely unlikely to take anything like 55-59% of the Party-Vote on Election Day (although I wouldn't entirely rule out Labour winning a slight majority of seats in their own right for the first time since the intro of MMP).

              But notice Labour continued to rise & the Nats continued to fall during the move to Level 3 & then down to Level 2 (May Roy Morgan conducted between late April & late May), ie as we moved away from that unique period of public entrancement.

      • weka 10.3.2

    • Cinny 10.4

      WOW !!! Dang that's good news 🙂

      Don't political parties traditionally receive a boost in the polls when there is a leadership change?

    • Roy Morgan poll result converted to seats:

      Labour: 73

      Greens: 9

      National: 34

      Act: 4

      Muller is taking National into 2002 territory. There's now a strong chance Bill English will lose his Worst. Leader. Ever. title.

      • observer 10.5.1

        I know we're all having fun with this but the poll isn't about Todd Muller. There are no time machines on the market yet.

        • te reo putake

          Well, it does cover the week of Muller's successful coup, and he is still the leader at the time of writing, so I'm comfy with the description. However, I do accept that its possible that the Roy Morgan polling was even worse for National until he took over and his confident and polished start has dragged the poll up many, many points in just a few days.

          • observer

            April 27 – May 24, 2020.

          • The Al1en

            I did read some commentary after the last 3 news poll came out, that the low number had an affect on the voting intention of the TVNZ one a couple of days later, so if that's true, and RM again polled late, then it's quite possible the Muller affect may well have already started to be factored into the totals.

            • te reo putake

              Quite right. It also depends on when in the polling period the majority of opinions were sampled. If the poll was geared to having most calls made nearer the publication date then the result would reflect at least some of the Muller magic.

              • The Al1en

                Quite. Barring any major government balls ups, the only bounce Muller is likely to have, will be the one on his arse as Luxon kicks him out of his office in October.

  11. Dennis Frank 11

    Duncan Garner tried to hold the PM accountable for the police decision. She pointed out that there were constitutional reasons why the govt couldn't interfere with police decisions.

    You can imagine the thoughts of the Minister of Police, listening in. "Jeez, folks still think a minister is in charge! Colonialism has an awful long shadow. I sure dodged a bullet there. So I can continue standing here looking useless as usual, while all that taxpayer money keeps flooding into my bank account. It's because I was born lucky, and the privilege system protects me. Thank god for the constitution! Life is wonderful."

    • Gabby 11.1

      Stew would've stood at the door handing out assault rifles to his boyzngirlz given half a chance.

  12. Molly 12

    A disturbing lack of integrity and awareness from the government agency and CEO of Rio Tinto after the mining company destroys an aboriginal cave site 46,000 years old.

    "The federal minister for indigenous affairs, Ken Wyatt, the first Aboriginal person to be appointed to the role, said it was “incomprehensible” the blasting had gone ahead but said it appeared to be a “genuine mistake”.

    “I believe that Rio Tinto are very genuine in the partnership they have with Aboriginal communities (and) organisations,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation."

    "…Rio Tinto’s iron ore chief executive Chris Salisbury apologised for the distress the company has caused.

    In a statement he said: “We pay our respects to the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura People (PKKP), and we are sorry for the distress we have caused. Our relationship with the PKKP matters a lot to Rio Tinto, having worked together for many years."

    Apparently, the government was able to issue consent to destroy identified sites, but was unable to revoke consents once issued.

    BAU. Carry on with what you want to do, and apologise later. Such a toxic approach in business and real life.

    • RedLogix 12.1

      The federal minister for indigenous affairs, Ken Wyatt, the first Aboriginal person to be appointed to the role, said it was “incomprehensible” the blasting had gone ahead but said it appeared to be a “genuine mistake”.“I believe that Rio Tinto are very genuine in the partnership they have with Aboriginal communities (and) organisations,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

      This aligns with my own personal experience; I've personally seen Rio Tinto taking their relationship with local people very seriously indeed. This incident will be very much regretted and will have internal consequences.

      • Molly 12.1.1

        There appears to be a point in any relationships where that trust and integrity can take a back seat, or be maintained. That is when true intention and robustness of processes can be determined.

        From the article it looks like the PKKP had been campaigning for protection for this site for seven years. To describe it as a mistake after this seems PR speak, for "this one we didn't want to let go".

        You may be right about Rio Tinto's intention, but from my perspective and the information in the article, this action seems to say otherwise.

        The consequences have already been felt by the PKKP, internal consequences within Rio Tinto will be small change in comparison.

      • OnceWasTim 12.1.2

        "This aligns with my own personal experience; I've personally seen Rio Tinto taking their relationship with local people very seriously indeed"

        If true, that'd be a bloody big change from the late 60s early 70s when people had to protest by staking a claim at the HQ of RioTinto in Collins St (and were ignored). Or maybe it was Bourke.

        Oh, very very sorry. Here's a million or two. Now can we just move on!

  13. Molly 13

    A completely off-track question for any legal minds out there:

    If a court order for fines or compensation is made against a beneficiary of a family trust, can the family trust be compelled to pay?

    • Barfly 13.1

      Not a lawyer – just an opinion – the beneficiary of the trust is not the legal owner of the trust therefore I don't think the trust can be forced to pay – however any payment by the trust to the beneficiary of the trust can be jacked from the beneficiary's bank account – just my opinion.

    • RedLogix 13.2

      Who is doing the 'compelling'? The Court? Or one of the beneficiaries?

      The concept of a trust is to very much prevent exactly this from happening; only the Trustees can determine how and trust funds are dispersed.

      Having said this, when it comes to the not uncommon situation of a Residential Care Subsidies, the Ministry of Social Development has made a habit in the past decade of 'reaching past' the trust and counting trust assets as belonging to beneficiaries when determining whether a person has assets exceeding the threshold to qualify.

      On the other hand there was an important High Court case (Broadbent) in 2018 that effectively ruled this was 'reaching past' was not legitimate. The consequences of this decision are still working through the system. In light of this it's clear that the Courts generally take the view that Trustees are the people in charge of a Trust, and no other entities should be interfering.

      Also it's worth noting that the new Trust Act 2019 comes into force at the end of this year and substantially increases the responsibilities on Trustees and changes some important aspects of Trust operation. If you are a trustee you'll need to be aware of these as a matter of urgency.

      Having said this, Trust law is not for amateurs, and I'm absolutely no-one to depend on. I found this is a very helpful site: https://mattersoftrust.co.nz/ Unlike a lot of legal websites it has actually useful information if you put the time in to understand it. I can also vouch for the legal company behind it … VATL.

    • Descendant Of Smith 13.3

      If the trust provides for the welfare of the beneficiary then it is a wide scope. It is however up to the discretion of the trustees.

      In saying that I have advocated for a couple of people who were beneficiaries of trusts who were receiving no payments ever from the trust – the trustees were his brother and sister and the family lawyer in one case – where basically the trustees were just waiting til the beneficiary died at which point they would get the whole lot.

      The lesson from those two cases was that if the trust provides for the beneficiaries welfare they must also do so. It also likely helps if the trust records show some beneficiaries being provided for and not others – I've long advocated for a register of beneficiaries. There often seems to be favoured ones. There was also a case in Palmerston North some years back where a lawyer got in trouble because they were letting the person who had established the trust use it as if it was still his own money – it isn't. The law firm had to pay out what they had signed off on as trustees. Basically he depleted the trust in conjunction with his lawyer.

      Lastly disbursements from trusts are also in most cases income under the Social Security Act and affect benefits.

      As with lots of these things get a good lawyer and one from a firm different to that administering the trust.

      • RedLogix 13.3.1

        where basically the trustees were just waiting til the beneficiary died at which point they would get the whole lot.

        Yes. The new Trust Act 2019 is designed to prevent these scenarios; in particular it requires the trustees to be much more transparent about the trust to the beneficiaries.

        No more secret decisions and a lot more robust paper trail.

      • Molly 13.3.2

        Thanks. Answered two questions I had actually. Will pass this on to the person involved.

  14. joe90 14

    Meanwhile, in the Idiocracy..

  15. Sacha 15

    Govt backing down on timing of move to Level 1. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/418043/cabinet-to-consider-alert-level-1-move-on-8-june

    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says Cabinet will consider [ie: discuss at its scheduled meeting on 8 June] moving to alert level 1 on 8 June, earlier than previously indicated.

    Cabinet had been expecting to consider the alert levels by 22 June and no later, but Ardern told Morning Report that based on the low number of cases, they could now deliberate on that earlier.

    She said the country would be given a period of time to transition, but it was possible that we could be at alert level 1 by 10 June.

    "We anticipated an even slightly longer tail of transmission [of cases] than we've had, we've been in contact with [the Director-General of Health] over the weekend.

    • mac1 15.1

      It's all in how you frame it. "Government brings forward level one because of new information and advice from its officials."

      Flexibility, advice sharing and taking, ability to react to changing conditions is a sign of a strong government.

      Somehow portraying a government that has a 78% approval rating according to Roy Morgan, as ‘backing down’ to some pressure from a small percentage does not appear logical.

      I would argue rather that the 78% approval is due to the people seeing that its government is strong, flexible, and adaptive.

      • McFlock 15.1.1

        Between the protests and the hotel foyer, 8 June probably a fair date to see if we've stuffed our dot-ball streak. It's not as certain as two full cycles of no cases, but it's not criminally negligent, either.

        • AB

          "but it's not criminally negligent, either"

          Correct – in this case negligence would require [insert either right-wing party of choice or "Sweden" here].

          • McFlock

            No, I think that if we start getting cases again towards the end of the week (especially multiple a day with no know source), we might be prudent to kick back down to L3 rather than pretending we're all good and going up to L1.

            But, say, a nurse treating the current patient coming down with it would not be a reason to stay at L2.

            • McFlock

              Another dot day today.

            • AB

              Yes. To clarify, on this matter I don't think we're going to get 'criminal negligence' from this government. That would have required National to have been in charge back in early March – or put in charge at any point thereafter.

    • SPC 15.2

      Not really. They had said that they would decide no later than June 22 (but that included looking at the matter earlier on June 8). They put it that way to placate their more careful health advisers. But she was discussing the issue with Bloomfield at the weekend prior to the protests, and now choose to emphasise that they were always going to look at it on June 8 – with the June 10 option.

      As the first phase of the wage subsidy expires later that same week June 10 was always the latest date to placate business.



      Making this clear now may give some businesses confidence to keep workers on past the wage subsidy period.

      • Nordy 15.2.1

        As Winston often says, 'words do matter'. Thanks for pointing out what was actually said, rather than what some reported was said.

    • OnceWasTim 15.3

      There's an election coming up.

      – Winston needs to get his trans-Tasman bubble

      – Business confidence has been severely dented (so Grant Graham of KordaMentha tells us)

      – the two tier benefit payouts, treatment of immigrant labour issues need to be rendered academic as does the 54 Avatars at the QT hotel just down the road

      – Guildord of Vic Uni needs his international students back asap and the churn needs to be resumed

      All things considered, it's worth the risk and we need to get back to BAU as soon as possible.

      And as I listen to Neale Jones on N2N, there's a lot of hope and positivity to go around. That hope and positivity should even fix what Helen Clark recently said was a "lack of capacity" in our public service these days

      • SPC 15.3.1

        – Winston needs to get his trans-Tasman bubble

        He might just get it before the election – Queensland has blocked inter-state travel until 1 September.

        He should instead look at visas for Australians coming here for the skiing in July August.

        • greywarshark

          spc +100

        • Adrian

          Skiers coming back from Austria is what lit up the UK. Queenstown probably needs the Aussies but bugger all smaller skifields do because they don't go there.

          • aj

            Australians coming here for the skiing in July August.

            Gotta get some snow first. Aussie fields may be in better shape than ours, but early days of course…

            • Adrian

              There is an upside, for every winter month that NZers aren't heading off to Hawaii or Provence or on a stinking cruise ship the country is better off by almost a billion dollars.

              • Incognito

                I don’t know where you get your numbers from but if that money stays in the bank it will be the Ozzie banks that are better off, not the country as such.

                • Enough is Enough


                  I was due to travel with my wife and kids to the UK to see family this year. The trip is simply postponed until its safe to go. Unfortunately for the economy that means the money sits in a bank account for the next 18 months or so.

                  • Adrian

                    Unfortunately for whose economy, the UKs, because that is where you will spend it ?. At the moment not taking it out of the country runs in our favour for balance of payments. If you do make it to the UK next year factor in two weeks at the end starring out of a Mangere hotel window as that toxic wasteland will still be rife with the pox.

                    • Enough is Enough

                      I think you missed the point entirely. The money will be spent in the UK economy when the trip finally takes place. The fact the trip is not taking place this year does not mean that money will automatically be spent in the New Zealand economy.

                      Whatever balance of payment benefit eventuates in the short term, will not help our local tourism businesses pay the rent, as the money is not being spent in their shops.

                      I am also not sure how you worked out that "18 months or so" would equate to next year?

                • Adrian

                  Tourism is a net loss to NZ, its hard to get real figures as they are exaggerated by the industry but Kiwis spend far more money on overseas travel than incoming tourists do here, mainly because incoming only stay a few weeks if that, there might be 3 million of them but if you take out cruisers the number drops a lot so the number of stay days is probably only 20 million, the cruise ship passengers spend hardly anything, but Kiwi cruise ship passengers pay for everything in NZ dollars and a lot of the working visa young make money here ( and get most of their tax back ) and that pays for the rest of their trip through the islands or Asia.

                  It is irrelevant if it goes into an Aussie owned bank, it is still money staying in the country and being spent here on whatever or paying off bills which is exactly what has happened, so we are on a bit of a winner.

                  So the money not spent by Kiwis because there is nowhere to go could easily be a billion a month in winter.

                  • RedBaronCV

                    Appreciate the point about hard to get real figures for the industry. Those that do stay & spend here do spend at least some of it in overseas owned hotels and businesses so there are profits repatriated, some work visas will be sending money home as well as that spent on further travel outside the country. It will be very interesting if we have a patch where it is largely local's spending and not too many overseas work visa's working so we can assess some of the yoyo effects of tourist money more accurately

                • Nic the NZer

                  Not true. Deposits are a bank liability, not an asset and essentially a form of loan to the bank. This is also why they pay (a small amount of) interest on them.

                  • Incognito

                    Too complex for me. I thought that if you deposit money in the bank for 18 months or so it helps to improve the bank’s liquidity ratio, which is regarded by RBNZ as a good thing. Maybe I got that all wrong then?

                    • Nic the NZer

                      If you deposit into a bank they would get the money, but they also owe you the deposit. Basically there are two sides to this, there is the money they receive as the deposit which they can now use and the money they now owe you which has also increased.

                      My summary would be, if the banks could not lend money and earn interest and only functioned to accept deposits and make payments, then deposits would incur costs rather than pay interest (which I think is well understood). I think that demonstrates they are not earning income based on the deposits in themselves they are reducing the cost of their lending activities which actually earn the money.

                      Also if your looking at legal ramifications a deposit is basically an unsecured loan by you to the bank. Its treated this way in many circumstances where a bank is wound up.

                    • Incognito []


        • Cinny

          I'd rather we have a bubble with the pacific islands before we have a bubble with the Aussies.

        • patricia

          Jacinda had a chat with the Leader of Singapore, Lee Hsien Loong, and we have flights beginning from there.

      • Pat 15.3.2

        And Winston may be shit out of luck….17 new cases in Oz yesterday

    • Anne 15.4

      Govt backing down on timing of move to Level 1.

      Nope. Ardern made it clear when we moved to Level 2 they were looking to move to level 1 by 22 June at latest, but sooner if conditions allow.

    • ianmac 15.5

      Q3 today at QT:
      “TODD MULLER to the Prime Minister: What new information, if any, was provided to Cabinet today to inform the discussion for a move to level 1?”

      Would she be bound to say what she was told if anything? More likely to say the same as this morning that they always said that they would reconsider no later than 22 June. Having some new cases was not known to block such a move.
      And there would not be much difference between Level 2 and 1. The border controls would stay the same but…

      • Nordy 15.5.1

        Pretty useless question actually. New information would include the latest data on cases and NZs response to level 2. It would also include advice on NZs preparedness to move to level 1 and the timetable for getting all the necessary information and advice to make a decision to move to level 1.

        It is interesting that some who have advocated a move to level 1 now don't seem to understand that a decision is based on advice and evidence, and not random opinions of people not qualified to provide such advice.

    • Ad 15.6

      Winston is right.

      If we are going to survive the current collapse of world trade, we need a trade bubble to open up fast.


      New Zealand being fine in Covid19 terms is as useful as a single survivor who made it to the gate of the lighthouse when the ret of the ship is down and nearly all others are drowning.

      • OnceWasTim 15.6.1

        "Winston is right".

        He is – in an old-fashioned kinda way. Maybe he should listen to one of his bros a little more however. Given his service to NZ over the years, it'd be nice if he could leave it all without having the last thing in his legacy being something he wouldn;t want to be remembered by.

        Still, when you've got a sleaze like Shane by your side pulling your chains, it's probably too hard an ask

      • Adrian 15.6.2

        Really?. We are the ones with the food and the timber. All the rest of the world has is a tsunami of plastic shit. Time we looked at import substitution a bit more.

      • patricia 15.6.3

        The Singapore connection? and soon Australia? and possibly Taiwan?

      • Pat 15.6.4

        Winston is only right if you are Winston

  16. WeTheBleeple 16

    I wrote this yesterday (and a wee touch of editing to update today) to mark the local Black Lives Matter protests.

    Strong language is contained within, so if this offends you, scroll past.

    Definition of fascism (Webster) : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    I'm not marching today because covid. But I'm sure it's obvious by now I stand with the protests.

    His name was George Floyd. He was murdered by police one week ago.

    The right-wing media I could be bothered watching the past week have been trying to paint the narrative as bad black people are now burning your shit. It's insulting.

    I've been watching this close. I've had less sleep than a crack fiend who found a fat wallet. What I've seen is in the first two days a massive and genuine outpouring of rage and grief, and the cops exacerbating it instead of allowing any healing to take place. Abandon the cop station and let it get trashed, charge the murderers, so simple. But they just pushed it.

    From the late charges, to the no charges for the other three, to trying to paint Floyd as a dope fiend – or he wasn't healthy enough to take nine minutes strangling… Unfuckingtenable.

    So instead of grieving and healing, it's just escalated. And it's spread, cos everyone's watching this bullshit. But it's not just because of the bullshit narratives, the cops keep being violent. And then there's the bad faith actors.

    The gas masked up white dude with the hammer busting windows was a catalyst to kick shit off in Minnesota, a cop, or so an alleged ex wife says. He had an umbrella, gas mask, goggles, hammer… professionally ready to riot before the riots. Meanwhile the fucking cops have been shooting gassing beating crowds.

    There was another white guy in the protest. He stabbed a protester. The cops went in and arrested him and tried to get the victim out. Some in the crowd were waiting, and threw rocks and eggs. The cops responded with rubber bullets, tear gas and flash-bangs.

    So yeah, cops and some white dudes seem to have kicked it off. And the polices continued violence is not easing anything.

    There are far too many instances of violent acts on peaceful protesters this past week. Rather than using their huge surveillance operation to identify external agitation, it is just indiscriminate violence by the state against protesters and those who side with them.

    Now they're shooting press – fuck! We thought Trumps shit about dealing with American media was a joke, cos he's an idiot. And you can't do that when you live in la-la land… They're outright attacking media in every city, on camera. Gassing, shooting, bashing, arresting – a fucking senator arrested.

    This is some full on fascist shit. In some places, the FBI's been whispering about imminent threat, so they're trading out rubber bullets for real bullets. Trumps just announced today he's going to 'sort it out' with the military. More escalation.

    And, just when you thought they couldn't be worse, they're deliberately targeting medics. Gas, beatings, rubber bullets, arrests. This is actually a war crime (if it were war).

    So now everyone with a heart wants to burn down Trumps America. Even Karen's out there, and she really wants to speak to the manager!

    • Dennis Frank 16.1

      I didn't know about the white provocateurs. You're right about attacking media – shows the cops have lost the plot. Reminds me of when cops beat up some professors, back when I was a student at the University of Auckland.

      In fact it seemed like the USA had taken a time machine back to '68 the other day, riots in 34 cities while a rocket took two astronauts into orbit, and I wondered if another Harvard prof would capture headlines telling all to turn on, tune in, & drop out. Trump then recycling Nixon's line calling him: "the most dangerous man in America". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary

    • Ad 16.2

      It will be a lot more interesting if Trump gets to call down the powers of the 1807 Insurrection Act, which enable him to use the US military against citizens.

      The general idea of that Act is to limit presidential power and for states to do that job. And there's a special Posse Comitatus Act prohibiting the use of the Army and Air Force for routine law enforcement.

      But actions the President takes under the Insurrection Act are exempt from this. Last deployed in 1992 for the Rodney King riots.

      Going to be a particularly weird 5 months to the election if he gets to bring the 101 Airborne on US citizens.

      • WeTheBleeple 16.2.1

        All white groups of vigilantes armed with baseball bats and golf clubs now roaming Philadelphia, and the cops don't seem to care.

        Civil war seems imminent without Trump backing down.

        Yeah, right.

      • Poission 16.2.2

        Meanwhile drivebuys,shootings and killings still happened in Chicago.

        82 shot,19 fatally in one weekend in 1 city.


        • WeTheBleeple

          So it's gang crime as usual. Almost as if the 'thugs' are not the protesters at all.

          I witnessed a murder by a gang in San Diego two days ago. Some protesters stopped it but too late. I reported it and sent the evidence to the police. They have not got back to me in 48 hours. I did get a robot reply with receipt of report.

          Meanwhile I've seen protesters protect police, people and property. They've stopped fights, stopped vandals and looters. All while under fire from right wing press and police.

          The police are very much a part of Trumps America. They're not doing their job at all, they're doing Trumps bidding, exacerbating chaos.

          (my apologies to the many fine officers who exist, I’m talking about the broader picture in US this week).

          • Herodotus

            Tv 1 news had a good item

            on how police can easily diffuse the problem by their actions

            talking, taking a knee, taking lead of the March . There are some very impressive people out there but their actions are sometimes lost

    • joe90 16.3

      Fuckers think they're in Baghdad.

  17. Adrian 17

    The Police response does look like Fascism, but the Fascism is coming from Trump and the republicans. The Police response is due to the police being more scared than the protesters, I saw it on the Great North Road during the Springbok Tour as we were trying to overturn a jumbo bin, the look in the cops eyes ( particularly the younger ones) said it all. They were terrified of being overrun as they knew they were outnumbered by 100s to 1 and a long truncheon is useless when you are on the ground and being trampled.

    Its been a long time but I have never forgotten that image.

    • Anne 17.1

      I felt sorry for the young cops the day of the final Eden Park match. I suspect most were just out of police college and they were frightened. One lot I saw were covered from head to toe with flour from bombs thrown at them. Pointless and stupid.

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        Covered with flour – pointless and stupid? If the worst that ever happened to them was being covered in flour they would think in their memoirs that policing had been a lark.

        • Anne

          Flour bombs being dropped by an aircraft. Ever carried a bag of flour? Quite heavy. In the context of the final match at Eden Park it was very scary . The violence I witnessed on both sides left a bad taste in my mouth. I wouldn't want to see it ever again.

  18. RedBaronCV 18

    I used to think that Twyford was a bit hard done by trying to deliver poorly designed housing policy election promises. Now I know he is just a dope.

    Once again the costs of the Avatar quarantine are being socialised onto the taxpayers and ratepayers. Which bit of full cost recovery for wealthy quarantine exceptions does he fail to grasp? And the hotel being used is of course part of an overseas chain so any profits are going to be repatriated. And what were the over entitled staff at the WCC thinking – ratepayers want to add their funds?


    Plus staff are being rotated to provide coverage. Being rotated into and out of our community? And I see that general manger has still to address the shared spaces with other guests that he is busy ignoring.

    • WeTheBleeple 18.1

      Nonsense. Of course security is on our dime. Unlike the corrupt who like to provide their own oversight.

      It's a matter of protecting NZ'ers.

      • RedBaronCV 18.1.1

        They should be employees of the state and answerable to us NZ's but with bulk full cost recovery from the avatar crowd. If we don't – think just how much the America's cup is likely to cost us- and us taxpayers have enough to do without subsidising billionaires playing with their overpriced toys

    • OnceWasTim 18.2

      I feel an OIA or 10 coming on in the not too distant

  19. observer 19

    Todd-Watch latest …

    After staying out of sight for a few days the exciting new National leader was back today. He had little choice, he could hardly avoid Question Time in Parliament. It didn't go well.

    His preferred approach is to ask Ardern a Q which gives her a chance to go on about things the government has done. He then repeats the Q word for word, as if that were some masterful move. So Ardern gets another chance to go on about (etc).

    The lack of enthusiasm among National MPs around him is painfully apparent. To avoid the "echo chamber" effect, I had a look at the RW social media, and they're about as unexcited as National's caucus. Not looking good for Todd.

    • Cinny 19.1

      Hehehe that's hilarious because, he was doing the same last week in Qtime.

      I wonder if anyone has pointed out to him that it's the governments MP's who ask the patsy questions.

      • Nordy 19.1.1

        I was wondering whether Mallard might intervene to say 'asked and answered' at one point in Muller's endless repeating of questions … LOL.

        PS – Mallard seemed to be grumpy with Robertson today. Has Robertson done something to annoy the Speaker?

        • Cinny

          Haven't watch today's qtime yet.

          But I will absolutely be tuning in tomorrow morning for the Wednesday media rounds with nationals latest disaster, Mr muller.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            On being replaced as opposition National party leader, the 'honourable' Simon Bridges was reported to:

            be a bit relieved
            be a little relieved and looking forward to spending more time with his family
            be feeling some relief after the weight of opposition was lifted from his shoulders
            have had a small sense of relief

            National party 'place-holder leader' #2 (or should that be #3?), Todd Muller, will experience similar 'relief' sometime after the general election – maybe then he can start rebuilding his bridges with Simon.

            Wonder if the opposition National party will retain Hooton as an advisor. If not, he can return to his PhD studies – the thesis will be a riveting read, I’m sure.

            • Cinny

              Wonder if the opposition National party will retain Hooton as an advisor. If not, he can return to his PhD studies – the thesis will be a riveting read, I’m sure.

              LMFAO !!!

  20. adam 21

    God Bless Cornel West – Cornel speaking in the first 4.50 sec (give or take) analysis by Kyle is really good as well.


  21. Observer Tokoroa 22

    lazy boy

    RedBaronCV – just wondering if you had built a house recently?

    Or do you just sit on your quaint ass and sprout.

    You apparently hadn't even built a house for your friends at National for nine years.

    Useless. Lazy boy

    [You still don’t control your urge to insult and take down other commenters. It is not even clear to which comment you were replying. You have form with this and it needs to stop and you need to learn to use the Reply button. Last ban was one week, the one before for six months, and this one is one month – Incognito]

    • adam 22.1

      gaslighting – classy.

    • RedBaronCV 22.2

      If this is what it takes to feel good about yourself – be my guest.

      Doesn't alter my opinion that Twyford does not seem to be managing the avatar quarantine well – either financially or more importantly the actual situation on the ground. If this is a possible precursor of how we handle the other special interest groups- righties I suspect- braying to get their little cash cow in the door to save their own bloated salary then we are going to need a lot of hope and luck to remain covid free.

      We also do not need some jumped up little hotel manager hiding behind customer confidentiality when he is mixing his offshore guests with the locals and trying to deny it. Never answers a direct question and seems to be more interested in PR spin than decent arrangements that would hold even in an emergency. That place will never see another dollar of mine.

      • Ad 22.2.1

        Twyford is seriously in need of some stable policy.

        It's ridiculous to have international film crews being able to come in to the country but not the Americas Cup crews.

        Carve-outs are stupid and beget more stupidity.

        • Incognito

          Maybe the A-Cup should threaten to withdraw from NZ. Worked for the film crew. These film makers know how to play their cards well and bluff at the right time. We wouldn’t want to miss out on another instalment of those blue hobbits swinging from tree to tree like Tarzan, Lord of the Bungle.

          • Ad

            The skin in the game from NZ is too deep to do that. And the film industry is more mobile than the AC industry.

            1. The Auckland Royal Yacht Squadron hold the cup. That's 80% of the 1%-ers who are over 80 years of age right there. You can see it on display inside, and there's no way that puppy is going anywhere.

            2. ETNZ is deeply sponsored by Kiwi-domiciled corporates like The Warehouse Foundation and TVNZ and Spark, as well as by the NZ Government directly. And they are housed in an Auckland Council building. As Defenders they are not going to go anywhere.

            3. All of ETNZ's manufacturing and R&D is in Auckland, and not replicable elsewhere within years. They are staying put.

            4. Both state and council have just spent nearly $300m just on the infrastructure. They just cancelled two leading tournament competitions because this is currently the only Covid-19-free port in the world with those facilities. And looks set to be so for a while.

            5. All the other teams have just invested hundreds of millions to get here, their boats are en route and due in the next two weeks.

            No one is calling bluff on the AC36.

            Even reduced in scale, it's going to be the first major international sporting competition in the post-Covid 19 world.

            • Grafton Gully

              It's the Royal NZ Yacht Squadron but your right it started as Auckland Yacht Club and in 1902 got royal patronage. Just an impression but I think of it as an elite social club and the sailors are with Richmond and Bucklands Beach.

          • RedBaronCV

            Yeah avatars isn't really my neck of the woods (apart from knowing they are blue) but apparently these sequels have been about 10 years in the making or something like that? Doesn't sound like any great sense of urgency going on there but I'm sure there are others who know much much more.

    • Incognito 22.3

      See my Moderation note @ 3:53 PM.

  22. WeTheBleeple 23

    Not for the faint hearted. Thread of some of the shit going down in the US. Very very bad.


  23. AB 24

    Are the Todd-squad backing the wrong deity?

  24. Gabby 25

    Surprising the protesters aren't exercising their 2nd amendment rights. Seems to be the way to get the respect of the police.

  25. joe90 26

    His GOP enablers must be chuffed.

    A Clarifying Moment in American History

    There should be nothing surprising about what Donald Trump has done in his first week—but he has underestimated the resilience of Americans and their institutions.

    Eliot A. Cohen

    January 29, 2017


    Precisely because the problem is one of temperament and character, it will not get better. It will get worse, as power intoxicates Trump and those around him. It will probably end in calamity—substantial domestic protest and violence, a breakdown of international economic relationships, the collapse of major alliances, or perhaps one or more new wars (even with China) on top of the ones we already have.


  26. joe90 27


  27. observer 28

    I feel a bit mean piling on like this, but then I remember that National's whole shtick is that the PM is a fluffy lightweight, and should be replaced by this guy …

    Todd Muller and the sound of silence

    It would be unfair if this was a "gotcha" that he couldn't be prepared for. But when it's THE lead story in the world news, and you've had several days to prepare for your next media appearance, you might have some idea what you're going to say.

    Or you do have some idea, but dare not say it.

  28. sumsuch 29

    Oh, what a brilliant footnotery we'll leave for the ages.

    I think our detailry about immediate events will be like the best- noted footsteps ever to a volcano rim. See PR and News ideas about current events. Or to say, political party's ideas about what matters. Surface shit.

    Can we talk about a little longer term ideas? Short term is Mordor's things.

    • Incognito 29.1

      It’s called an epitaph, not a footnote.

      Is Mordor a metaphor for the National Party?

      • sumsuch 29.1.1

        Despite their dipshit younger MPs, whose completely ignorant speeches about freedom I'm hearing about from my crazy born-again relatives, not National. Mordor is the rule of the rich for the rich over the last 40 years which has delivered us to 10 years to do anything for the continuance of our species.

        The downfall of progressive Labour at the last election over the brook may have tucked in the balls hereabouts but this is 1939 for H.s.s.

        Imagine a true realist questioning Jacinda about her bullshit about poverty. Instead of the upper middle class reporters who ask for a salary.

    • Janet 29.2

      Agree with you.

      What about …

      "We are in the midst of a mass extinction, many scientists have warned — this one driven not by a catastrophic natural event, but by humans.

      "We're eroding the capabilities of the planet to maintain human life and life in general," said Gerardo Ceballos, an ecologist at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and lead author of the new study."

      When are NZ and the world going to start the POPULATION discussion ! NZ should leave space for some natural population increase so that discussion needs to start now.

  29. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora


    That's is a great idea building A supermarket instead of A KFC fast food restaurant in Otara.

    Ka kite Ano

  30. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Marama.

    Its awesome that our government is sorting out the Loanshark problems.

    Its a good idea to have Tangata Whenua voices in council I say more Maori should run for council seats.

    Its good to see investment in restoring our environment we are lucky to have a government that understands that we need to have a healthy environment so all the Tangata are healthy not just the wealthiest.

    It will be good for our Pacific Island cousin when we resume travel to help restore the economy's.

    Ka kite Ano

  31. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora.

    The Am Show.

    Yes I think the government has done great mahi handling the virus issues.

    Scamp is sweet.

    Ka kite Ano. 😇

  32. Eco Maori 33

    Kia Ora


    That's is cool our government lowering the business loss from 50 % to 40 % for them to get wage subsidies extended.

    I think everyone coming into Aotearoa should be tested.

    Ka kite Ano.

  33. Eco Maori 34

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    I think the new trade training package will be great for Maori we just have to grab the opportunity and get qualified.

    It looked like there were 10.000 people in Taramaki Makaru March.

    I tau toko Rahui to preserve Kia Moana for our Mokopuna.

    Yes the Native Americans are treated badly to.

    Ka kite Ano

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