Open mike 02/10/2024

69 comments on “Open mike 02/10/2024 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. bwaghorn 1

   2 October 2024 at 6:26 am

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/01/health-nz-urges-govt-to-consider-privately-run-public-hospitals/

   The 40 year mission to destroy our health system and privatize it appears to be complete!
   • SPC 1.1

     2 October 2024 at 6:57 am

     Build and leaseback arrangements, where private companies own the buildings, would help free up funds.

     ACT party policy. It includes school buildings.

     The money they have allocated for roads would fund all the buildings, and better fund health with public money.

     The lease cost burden would result in allowing others to run for profit hospitals – the old funder provider split.

     Charter hospitals.

     And at some point, the public will find out the only way to access a GP is via health insurance.

     Then it will be Charter primary health centres.

     The UK will have a taxpayer funded NHS and we won’t. They will have higher wages and productivity, and higher levels of home ownership and the media will report of their post Brexit decline.

     Why, they have CGT and estate tax to fund government. And we do not. We have a government that provides what it thinks the precariat deserves, so they can retain lifestyles for the wealthy and well to do.
   • Bearded Git 1.2

     2 October 2024 at 7:01 am

     Newstalk ZB seems to be on a mission to get everyone to buy medical insurance which benefits private hospitals.

     There seems to be a noticeable shift towards a two-tier health system. As Tui says in the sidebar, this government is happy to promote privatisation of the health system in NZ.

     My understanding is that Shane Reti has interests in private hospital(s)-maybe TS commentators know more on this.

     You suffer or you pay.
     • Kay 1.2.1

       2 October 2024 at 7:37 am

       There's already a 3-tier system:

       Private insurance, ACC, and the poor sods who can't afford insurance (or are uninsurable), and not covered by ACC.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.2

       2 October 2024 at 7:57 am

       One person it could be good for though is the Honourable Health Minister Shane Reti, who holds significant shares in private hospitals.

       https://thestandard.org.nz/mountain-tui-new-zealanders-are-now-dying-from-an-underfunded-health-system/

       Privatisation costs us all

       https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/letter/privatisation-costs-us-all

       Shane Reti

       National MP for Whangārei

       https://wheretheystand.nz/people/shane-reti/interests
       • Bearded Git 1.2.2.1

         2 October 2024 at 6:21 pm

         Thanks psych….excellent info.

         I don't remember Reti mentioning that during the election campaign.
     • Tiger Mountain 1.2.3

       2 October 2024 at 8:04 am

       Dr Cigaretti is well ensconced in the private sector–check out PLA’s 1.2.2 links.
   • SPC 1.3

     2 October 2024 at 8:21 am

     The National-ACT Agreement included this.

     Investigate build and lease-back arrangements for new hospitals

     https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/18466/attachments/original/1700778592/National_ACT_Agreement.pdf?1700778592

     Presumably it was on this basis that HM staff acting like cyborgs to the Hive mind …

     Earlier this year, Health New Zealand told ministers given the scale of investment required, "a range of options for different financing and commercial arrangements may be needed".

     Build and leaseback arrangements, where private companies own the buildings, would help free up funds.

     They also floated "Public Private Partnerships", and said they are widely used overseas.

     Health NZ chief infrastructure and investment officer Jeremy Holman said PPPs are "a whole spectrum of how the private sector could work with the private sector from that side of it so there are many different options in there".

     On the suggestion (haha), Minister of Health Shane Reti said: "I won't reiterate all the advantages and disadvantages. The most obvious is the freeing up of capital that the Crown can then deploy elsewhere."

     The National-NZ First Agreement, as to funding

     Renegotiate the Crown funding agreement with St John with a view to meeting a greater portion of their annualised budget.
     • Ensure Plunket is funded to do their job properly.
     • Ensure proper funding for birthing units and maternity care, including providing for a three day stay for new mothers

     (Most of their focus was on seniors policy)

     https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/18466/attachments/original/1700778597/NZFirst_Agreement_2.pdf?1700778597
   • SPC 1.4

     2 October 2024 at 9:07 am

     National claim to be focused on better health outcomes.

     Will they measure access to primary health care (even those enrolled find timely appointments difficult)?

     1.1 Targeting better health outcomes

     Having transparent targets with regular, robust reporting helps identify where the system is falling short and focuses effort on improving outcomes. The last National Government delivered improved health outcomes across a range of priority areas by establishing clear targets for the sector and regularly reporting performance against
     them for each region of the country.

     Research into the previous National Government’s target for faster treatment in hospital emergency departments found a significant decrease in mortality rates among those admitted to emergency departments, with around 700 fewer deaths in one year than predicted if pre-target trends had continued.

     That’s why it’s no surprise that when Labour abandoned the focus on health targets and embarked on a hugely disruptive back-office restructure, actual health outcomes for New Zealanders suffered, with wait times blowing out, access to cancer treatment reducing, and childhood immunisation rates plummeting.

     Using a pandemic in such a way is par for political discourse

     National will restore health targets and publish progress against them by region each quarter so New Zealanders can see how well the health system is serving their community.

     This will drive improvement in outcomes and have a significant impact on ensuring better, faster and more convenient healthcare for New Zealanders.

     https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/18436/attachments/original/1696286925/Better_Health_Outcomes.pdf?1696286925
2. Jenny 2

   2 October 2024 at 7:48 am

   The Hubris of Empire

   Abraham Accords deal dies in the ruins of Gaza, US to Blame

   The Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi, hammers another nail into the coffin lid of the Abraham Accords.

   https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2024/09/30/israel-can-live-in-peace-with-arab-states-if-palestinian-state-established-jordan-fm

   What Arab or majority Muslim state could possibly want to normalise relations with Israel after this?

   From 'StandWithUs' Israeli Fact Sheet on the Abraham Accords:

   The Abraham Accords are a series of treaties normalizing diplomatic relations between Israel, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco, facilitated by the U.S. Administration[1] between August and December, 2020. In the span of five short months, these four Arab states joined Egypt and Jordan in making peace with Israel. The agreements were called “The Abraham Accords” in honor of Abraham – the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam[2].

   ……According to a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 80 percent of Palestinians “describe their feelings towards [the Abraham Accords] as: treason, abandonment, and insult.” [24]

   …..Other Arab and Muslim states such as Oman, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia are rumored to be considering normalization with Israel as well.

   https://www.standwithus.com/theabrahamaccords?

   The Abraham Accords multi-partner deal to normalise diplomatic and trade and political ties between the US, the pro-US totalitarian Arab dictatorships and autocracies, and the Apartheid settler state of Israel, was set to ensure US led Western dominance of this oil rich region of the globe in perpetuity.

   Normalising relations between all the pro-US Arab states and Israel, was on the condition that the Arab States would ignore, or at least not object, to Israel's slow strangulation and takeover of the Palestinian Arab territories.
   The Abraham Accords would be the death knell of the Palestinian people's dream of an independent sovereign state, free from Israeli occupation and oppression.

   Instead, following the Hamas led attack on October 7, and Israel's genocidal retaliation, the bell is being tolled for the Abraham Accords.

   The Abraham Accords Time Line:

   'The Intercept' June 2022 – (15 monthis before October 7, 2023)

   Intel Report Warned Abraham Accords Would Fuel Violence

   https://theintercept.com/2022/06/22/abraham-accords-israel-saudi-arabia-biden/

   In 2020, as then-President Donald Trump was busy touting the newly signed Abraham Accords as a historic peace agreement in the Middle East, his own Department of Homeland Security was warning that the agreement, far from ushering in peace, heightened the risk of terrorism, according to a document obtained by The Intercept under the Freedom of Information Act….

   'The Intercept' October 9, 2023 – (2 Days after the Hamas led attack on Israel)

   Biden Doubled Down on the Abraham Accords — to “Devastating Consequences”

   The Biden administration’s policy of ignoring conditions in Gaza contributed to this weekend’s explosion of violence.

   https://theintercept.com/2023/10/09/israel-palestine-gaza-diplomacy/

   …..The [Biden] administration has centered its regional policy on the expansion of the “Abraham Accords,” a set of diplomatic normalization agreements between Israel and regional ArFab countries. It is an effort in which President Joe Biden has sunk much resources and political capital.

   The de facto premise behind the accords, initiated under former President Donald Trump and led by his son-in-law Jared Kushner, was to “solve” the Israel–Palestine conflict by simply ignoring the Palestinians and treating their conditions as irrelevant.

   ….Yousef Munayyer, a nonresident senior fellow at the Arab Center Washington. “The Biden administration’s policy has been to simply ignore the tragic situation on the ground, perhaps more than any other administration. It’s deliberate ignorance that has had very devastating consequences.”

   Days before the conflict began, speaking at a public event on September 29, national security adviser Jake Sullivan praised the administration’s Middle East policy, stating that “the Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades.”

   “The ignorance and hubris it took to make a statement like that is stunning,” said Munayyer.

   …..Gaza’s residents have lived under permanent for over a decade and a half, without the prospect of a diplomatic process anywhere on the horizon — let alone a solution. Their desperation had been building for years prior to the present war. Palestinian demonstrators, many of whom had never left Gaza in their lives, have organized several large protest marches toward the Israel-run border fence in recent years. They were met with indiscriminate gunfire from Israeli forces that killed civilians as well as medical personal….

   ……In 2018, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar wrote a letter in Hebrew to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asking him to take a “calculated risk” in agreeing to a long-term truce with Hamas…..

   Netanyahu ultimately rejected the entreaty for a broader truce. The U.S. did not apply any notable pressure on Israel to pursue this or other possible openings.

   'Alarabiya News' 30 September, 2024 at the UN (358 days and counting, after October 7, 2024)

   Israel can live in peace with Arab states if Palestinian state established: Jordan FM

   https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2024/09/30/israel-can-live-in-peace-with-arab-states-if-palestinian-state-established-jordan-fm

   Arab countries are “willing to guarantee the security of Israel” if Israel ends its occupation and a Palestinian state is established, Jordan’s foreign minister Ayman Safadi said during a press conference held on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly.

   “All of us in the Arab world here, want a peace in which Israel lives in peace and security, accepted, normalized with all Arab countries in the context of ending the occupation, withdrawing from Arab territory, allowing for the emergence of an independent, sovereign Palestinian state on the June 4, 1967 lines with East Jerusalem as its capital,” Safadi said on Friday shortly after Benjamin Netanyahu gave his speech.

   “The Israeli prime minister came here today and said that Israel is surrounded by those who want to destroy it,” he told the press.

   “We are here, members of the Muslim-Arab committee, mandated by 57 Arab and Muslim countries, and I can tell you very unequivocally all of us willing to right now guarantee the security of Israel in the context of Israel ending the occupation and allowing for the emergence of a Palestinian state,” the Jordanian minister said.

   Netanyahu “is creating that danger because he simply does not want the two-state solution. If he does not want the two-state solution, can you ask Israeli officials what is their end-game — other than just wars and wars and wars?”

   “The amount of damage that this Israeli government has done — 30 years of efforts to convince people that peace is possible, this Israeli government killed it. The amount of dehumanization, hatred, bitterness, will take generations to navigate through,” the Jordanian minister added.

   Israel is only thinking about “destroy[ing] Gaza, inflame[ing] the West Bank, destroy[ing] Lebanon,” according to Safadi.

   “We have no partner for peace in Israel, there is a partner for peace in the Arab world, and that’s why the international community needs to move.”

   Israel’s military offensive on the Gaza Strip has reduced the territory to rubble and killed at least 41,586 people since October 7. The Israeli government said it launched its war in retaliation for the Hamas attack on southern Israel in which 1,200 Israelis were killed and over 100 were taken hostage.

   What if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's offer for a long-term truce, that Sinwar put in a letter written in Hebrew to Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu, would October 7 have been prevented? (Sinwar had studied Hebrew and became fluent during his 22 years of incarceration in the Israeli prison system, until he was freed in a prisoner swap).

   What if Israel instead of launching a genocidal war of retribution against the Gaza strip had negotiated a prisoner exchange?, would the Abraham Accords still have been possible?

   We will never know.

   One thing we know for certain, is that any hopes of the Abraham Accords to normalise relations between America's Arab allies and Israel are finished now..
   • Belladonna 2.1

     2 October 2024 at 9:19 am

     What if Israel instead of launching a genocidal war of retribution against the Gaza strip had negotiated a prisoner exchange?, would the Abraham Accords still have been possible?

     We will never know.

     What if Hamas hadn't launched a terror raid into Israel, deliberately targeting civilians? One thing is sure, tens of thousands of Palestinians would still be alive, if they hadn't deliberately provoked a response from Israel.

     And the Abraham Accords would still have been possible. Of course, Hamas doesn't want the Abraham Accords. And there is a credible argument that the terror raid was deliberately timed to derail a Saudi-Israel agreement.
     • Jenny 2.1.1

       2 October 2024 at 12:41 pm

       Belladonna @2.1

       2 October 2024 at 9:19 am

       ……One thing is sure, tens of thousands of Palestinians would still be alive, if they hadn't deliberately provoked a response from Israel.

       12 hundred Israelis would still be alive, if 'they' sic. hadn't deliberately provoked a response from Hamas.

       …..before Hamas’ attack on October 7, Israeli forces had already killed 234 Palestinians in the West Bank this year, while settlers were responsible for nine more killings…..

       https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record

       'Al Jazeera' January 3, 2023 (9 months before October 7)

       …Israel’s far-right national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir has entered the compound that houses the Al-Aqsa Mosque in occupied East Jerusalem, in a move that threatens a backlash from Palestinians who have labelled the act an “unprecedented provocation”.

       Maybe if the Israeli's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had agreed to Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's offer of a truce and had agreed to stop killing Palestinians in their own land. Maybe if the Israeli's governmentl Security Minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir had not conducted an "unprecedented provocation" against the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam's third holiest site, important not just to religious Palestinians but to secular and even Christian Palestinians as a symbol of their culture and history.

       Belladonna; "if they hadn't deliberately provoked a response…"

       Presumably by "they" you mean Hamas.

       Yahya Sinwar, the recognised architect and director of Hamas October 7 attack on Israel, is not just a political and military leader, Sinwar is a recognised Islamic Hafiz, meaning that he has memorised the whole of the Koran. as such Sinwar would take a provocation against the sanctity of the Al-Aqsa Mosque very seriously.

       Having been released in a prisoner swap himself, Sinwar probably thought he could repeat the exercise.

       And miscalculated what Israel's response to his October 7 attack and taking of hostages would be.

       Similarly, Netanyahu has miscalculated what the International response to his genocide in Gaza would be. Especially what the response of the Arab nations, to any normalisation of ties with Israel, ending Israel's hope of achieving the Abraham Accords with its Arab neighbours.

       'Time' magazine, December 4, 2023 (two months after October 7)

       It’s Time to Scrap the Abraham Accords

       https://time.com/6339889/cancel-abraham-accords/

       …..the Accords was proving that the Palestinian issue was no longer an obstacle for Israel’s relationships in the region, as Arab states dropped their demand for a Palestinian state as a condition to normalizing ties with Israel. The pact promised regional security despite allowing Israel to bypass the rights of 6 million Palestinians living under daily brutality, military occupation, and apartheid rule to establish alliances with authoritarian regional regimes. As many of us predicted at the time—myself included—that was always bound to fail. The shocking Hamas attack on Oct. 7, killing 1,200 people in Israel, has now made that clear to all.

       ……Rather than curbing Israeli abuses, the Accords emboldened successive Israeli governments to further ignore Palestinian rights. In the first year after the Accords, settler violence dramatically increased in the West Bank. Following the election of Israel’s most right-wing government in history in 2022, cabinet ministers openly called for the annexation of the West Bank and announced massive settlement expansions. In the year leading up to Oct. 7, Israeli forces had already killed almost 200 Palestinians in the West Bank…..
       • Belladonna 2.1.1.1

         2 October 2024 at 12:43 pm

         And how's that working out for the people of Palestine?

         Of course, the Hamas leadership are safely in Qatar… so not exposed to any risk.
         • Jenny 2.1.1.1.1

           2 October 2024 at 2:16 pm

           Belladonna @2.1.1.1

           2 October 2024 at 12:43 pm

           ……the Hamas leadership are safely in Qatar… so not exposed to any risk.

           And now for the facts:

           Israeli security chief in recording vows to hunt down Hamas abroad

           By Reuters

           December 4, 2023

           https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-security-chief-recording-vows-hunt-down-hamas-abroad-kan-tv-2023-12-03/

           JERUSALEM, Dec 3 (Reuters) – Israel will hunt down Hamas in Lebanon, Turkey and Qatar even if it takes years, the head of Israel's domestic security agency Shin Bet said in a recording aired by Israel's public broadcaster Kan on Sunday….

           ….."The cabinet has set us a goal, in street talk, to eliminate Hamas. This is our Munich. We will do this everywhere, in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Lebanon, in Turkey, in Qatar. It will take a few years but we will be there to do it." [Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar]

           Here's a question for you Belladonna.

           Are you a Zionist?
           • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.1.1

             2 October 2024 at 5:11 pm

             Hamas leadership, safe in Qatar – not subject to the Israeli troop attacks in Gaza (unlike the ordinary Palestinians).

             https://www.timesofisrael.com/qatar-says-hamas-will-remain-in-doha-as-long-as-group-remains-useful-for-mediation/

             Not really heartbroken about terrorist leaders being targeted for assassination. Much rather see this than ordinary people being killed.

             What do you mean by Zionist?
             • Jenny …

               7 October 2024 at 10:10 am

               Belladonna @2.1.1.1.1.1

               2 October 2024 at 5:11 pm

               …..What do you mean by Zionist?

               You tell me.

               What is your understanding of the word Zionist?

               And do you consider yourself to be one?

               I just find it interesting, that of all the pro-Israel commenters on this site, including you, not one of you will identify as a Zionist.

               Why is that, do you think?

               Maybe somewhere in the back of your own minds you think that Zionism is a bad thing. So it is better not to own up to it.

               But who knows? Give me your thoughts.
               • Belladonna …

                 7 October 2024 at 12:39 pm

                 Zionism is a complex concept, with multiple possible meanings.

                 This includes a historical meaning of Zionism. The belief that there should be a country of Israel, roughly corresponding to the Biblical country as a homeland for the Jewish people.

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

                 I think that many pro-Palestinian activists have adopted their own interpretation of 'Zionist' – which is why people are reluctant to use the term.

                 If by Zionism, you mean 'Do I believe that the State of Israel should exist, today'. Then my answer is: Yes, I do.

                 I find it 'interesting' that the anti-Israel commenters on this site, including you, are so concerned with 'gotcha' identifications.

                 Maybe somewhere in the back of your own minds, you think that anti-Semitism is a bad thing. So it's better not to own up to it.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   7 October 2024 at 6:10 pm

                   In the conflict in the Gaza Strip (a Palestinian territory occupied by Israel) and beyond, 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' labels are a matter of perspective. My sympathy for the plight of Israelis is tempered by the knowledge that tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians have died during the expansion of this asymmetric war.

                   Israeli military encircles northern Gaza refugee camp after saying it sees signs of Hamas regrouping [6 Oct 2024]
                   In the separate incident in central Gaza, a mosque was targeted by Israeli forces early Sunday, killing at least 25 people, while another strike on a school killed four people, hospital officials said,

                   CNN video showed chaotic scenes as bodies were pulled from rubble after the overnight attack on the religious site in Deir el Balah, where Palestinians were sheltering.

                   “The mosque was a shelter for displaced people, there are no militants or anything inside,” said Nabil Nadda, who was nearby when the strike happened. “Just people who have no shelter, tents, or homes so they sheltered in the mosque.”

                   The Israeli military confirmed it carrying out strikes on both sites, calling them “precise” and said were targeting Hamas “command and control” centers.

                   Imho, the Israeli leadership has lost its collective mind – they see eradication of any and all potential enemies as the only way forward/out, and are behaving like hopped-up pest exterminators.

                   Maybe somewhere in the back of your own minds, you think that anti-Semitism is a bad thing. So it's better not to own up to it.

                   I'll refrain speculating out loud about what lies behind your attempt at an "anti-Semitism" smear – better to consider the future of surviving Israeli, Palestinian and, more recently, Lebanese civilians.

                   One Year After Oct. 7, Israel Sees a Future at War
                   [7 Oct 2024]
                   Security officials estimate that the military will need to fight for at least another year in Gaza, and forces will need to be stationed there for years to come …

                   Bowen: Year of killing and broken assumptions has taken Middle East to edge of deeper, wider war

                   Plunging into uncertainty

                   The last time that restructuring the Middle East by force was contemplated seriously was after al-Qaeda’s 9/11 attacks on America, when US President George W Bush and Tony Blair, the UK’s prime minister, were getting ready to invade Iraq in 2003.

                   The invasion of Iraq did not purge the Middle East of violent extremism. It made matters worse.

                   The priority for those who want to stop this war should be a ceasefire in Gaza. It is the only chance to cool matters and to create a space for diplomacy. This year of war started in Gaza. Perhaps it can end there too.
                   • Belladonna …

                     7 October 2024 at 6:21 pm

                     Simply reflecting back the attempted 'Zionist' smear (it's clearly a smear in Jenny's mind)

                     I do hope you're also bearing in mind the future of the Sudanese civilians, as well. Somehow that deadly civil war (with significantly higher casualty rates, and associated civilian displacement and deaths, than Gaza), seems to slip the mind of the 'concerned' commentators on TS.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_impact_of_the_Sudanese_civil_war_(2023%E2%80%93present)
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   7 October 2024 at 7:49 pm

                   Simply reflecting back the attempted 'Zionist' smear…

                   A smear for a smear makes the whole world… smeary.

                   I do hope you're also bearing in mind the future of the Sudanese civilians…

                   B, your concern for the future of Sudanese civilians must be great indeed for you to introduce the topic into a thread on Gaza and Israel.

                   https://www.amnestykenya.org/silent-horrors-urgent-call-for-action-in-gaza-and-sudan/

                   Time for a ceasefire in Gaza, and Sudan, imho – how about you?

                   If by Zionism, you mean 'Do I believe that the State of Israel should exist, today'. Then my answer is: Yes, I do.

                   Nicely done – I must be a Zionist too
                   • Muttonbird …

                     7 October 2024 at 9:03 pm

                     Do I believe that the State of Israel should exist, today.

                     Interesting if blunt question. They've had 70 years to make it work and it's worse than ever. They’ve really fucked it up so maybe time to pull the pin on Israel as a concept.
     • Jenny 2.1.2

       2 October 2024 at 1:18 pm

       Belladonna @2.1

       2 October 2024 at 9:19 am

       ….there is a credible argument that the terror raid was deliberately timed to derail a Saudi-Israel agreement.

       You think?

       Maybe the Palestinians fear, was that Israel’s Slow-Motion Genocide in Occupied Palestine being carried out, with the complicity of not only the US and its Western allies, but would also now be joined by America's repressive Arab allies as well?

       Netanyahu's rejection of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's offer for a long-term truce, meant a permanent state of war existed between Hamas and Israel.

       Israel's excuse for the massive number of Palestinian civilian deaths, including 15 thousand children and infants, is that, 'bad things happen in war'
       • Belladonna 2.1.2.1

         2 October 2024 at 5:14 pm

         Not just me – it's been widely reported that the timing of the Hamas terrorist attack seems calculated.

         https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-attack-aimed-disrupt-saudi-israel-normalization-biden-2023-10-20/

         And Hamas' excuse for conducting a terror raid deliberately targeted against civilians is?
         • koina 2.1.2.1.1

           2 October 2024 at 5:32 pm

           The Jewish God Yahweh did not stop 6 million Jews dying in the death camps.

           Why?
           • Belladonna 2.1.2.1.1.1

             2 October 2024 at 5:47 pm

             Fail to see what Yahweh has to do with a Muslim terrorist organization.
             • koina …

               2 October 2024 at 9:52 pm

               Maybe the Jewish God believed the Jews needed punishing
               • Belladonna …

                 2 October 2024 at 10:02 pm

                 Maybe Allah believes that the Palestinian Arabs need punishing.
                 Seems more likely, given the current outcomes.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   2 October 2024 at 11:00 pm

                   Gods can be vengeful – I like (the safety of) atheism, within secularism.

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#/media/File:Map_of_secular_states.svg
                   • Belladonna …

                     3 October 2024 at 9:46 am

                     Perhaps you should share your thoughts with Koina.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   3 October 2024 at 11:29 am

                   Perhaps you should share your thoughts with Koina.

                   Thanks for the advice B.

                   Fwiw, I’m sharing my thoughts with all Standardistas – how about you?
               • SPC …

                 3 October 2024 at 12:02 am

                 So you have something in common with those legitimising imperialism/colonialism as the means by which the Christian or Moslem God acts to evangelise.

                 Conflating human events with God's will. How do you explain cancer then?
           • SPC 2.1.2.1.1.2

             2 October 2024 at 6:10 pm

             An interesting question to ask on the Jewish New Year.

             For the same reason the Christian God and Moslem God did not prevent the deaths of Christians by other Christians and Moslems by other Moslem – or by each other.

             For those of faith, it is obvious. This is a human dominion, and God can redeem the dead.
             • Visubversa …

               2 October 2024 at 9:25 pm

               Yeah – like they said about the Cathars in France – "kill them all, God will know his own".
               • SPC …

                 2 October 2024 at 11:36 pm

                 I used the term, God can redeem the dead, in the context that this is how a God could/does intervene without interfering in a human dominion of the mortal realm.

                 The corruption of power is what it is.

                 That men of religion have and would abuse power in our human dominion, does not discredit God or the concept (though Jordan Peterson does raise doubts here for anyone remotely feminist or questioning the utility of hierarchy/patriarchy as heritage).

                 But it is why Voltaire was of the opine that those of a supremacist religion (or political creed) should not hold power over others.

                 Keeping the human dominion free of such corruption is on us.
         • Jenny 2.1.2.1.2

           3 October 2024 at 9:59 am

           Belladonna @2.1.2.1

           2 October 2024 at 5:14 pm

           Not just me – it's been widely reported that the timing of the Hamas terrorist attack seems calculated.

           https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-attack-aimed-disrupt-saudi-israel-normalization-biden-2023-10-20/

           'Seems'?

           I find it hard to agree with someone who supports genocide, but in this case Biden is not wrong.

           From the above link supplied by Belladonna:

           Hamas attack aimed to disrupt Saudi-Israel normalization, Biden says

           By Reuters

           October 21, 2023

           ….Biden suggested Saudi wanted to recognize Israel in the comments he made at a campaign fundraiser.

           Saudi Arabia, a Middle East powerhouse and home to Islam's two holiest shrines, gave its blessing to Gulf neighbors United Arab Emirates and Bahrain establishing relations with Israel in 2020 under the previous U.S. administration of Donald Trump.

           https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-attack-aimed-disrupt-saudi-israel-normalization-biden-2023-10-20/

           It should come as no surprise to anyone, that the 'autocratic' leaders of the repressive state of Saudi Arabia, would want to seek common ground with the 'fascist' leaders of the apartheid state of Israel. And that the US wants to facilitate this partnership.

           It's not a secret,

           Both states support US hegemony in the Middle East. Both states are forgiven any crime, as long as they support US hegemony in the Middle East.

           To fully dominate and secure this oil rich region, it is in the interest of the US to reconcile the pro-US petro states with the US backed settler state of Israel,
3. SPC 3

   2 October 2024 at 7:55 am

   The position of yet another Minister in the C of C government has been questioned.

   A Minister serving her boss, the Tsar of inadequate regulation, or lipspittle (dribble down apologetics of failure to act), as they call it at Atlas NeTwerk.

   Yes first we proffer ridicule, then we campaign and then we vote and win.

   Many of the items we use every day that are in our wardrobes, living rooms and workplaces are tainted by modern slavery. Yet there is no legal obligation for businesses, including our large corporations, to do the most basic checks that the people who made the items they sell are not enslaved to do so.

   This makes it almost impossible for Kiwis to have confidence that what we buy and use isn’t supporting slavery.

   This “don’t-ask, don’t-tell” approach means New Zealand is out of step with international efforts to eradicate modern slavery in supply chains.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/02/opinion-nzs-current-laws-wont-tackle-modern-slavery/
4. Sanctuary 4

   2 October 2024 at 7:57 am

   Iran sent a highly choreographed & highly telegraphed warning to Israel last April, where Israel, the USA, the UK and Jordan all got plenty of time to prepare for an attack of largely OWA (One-Way Attack) drone and cruise missiles – easily intercepted – with a few IRBMs thrown in to show what Iran could achieve. Israel basically ignored the warning, and now they've been hit by 300-500 IRBMs, many (most?) of which seem to have accurately hit their targets. Notable by their absence this time is active US and British military help in intercepting these ballistic missiles, or threats of US action against Iran. Israel is also being sent a message by omission from the Americans.

   Despite its size this attack by Iran is yet another warning to Israel. The Iranians have several thousand ballistic missiles and a vast arsenal of OWA drones and cruise missiles. A full-on attack would involve a sustained saturation and segmented attack by OWAD, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. Hopefully (but unlikely) this Iranian attack will sober up an Israel drunk on violence and cause them to pause and think.
   • Belladonna 4.1

     2 October 2024 at 9:10 am

     and now they've been hit by 300-500 IRBMs, many (most?) of which seem to have accurately hit their targets. Notable by their absence this time is active US and British military help in intercepting these ballistic missiles, or threats of US action against Iran. Israel is also being sent a message by omission from the Americans.

     The effective targeting of the missiles seems to be rather questionable. Al Jazeera (closest thing to an independent source on the Middle East) – certainly doesn't make this claim. The only source claiming to have significant numbers on target is Iran state TV (hardly a reliable source)

     https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/1/israel-says-iran-launches-missile-attack-warns-residents-to-shelter

     There are also credible reports that the US helped shoot down the missile attack (they have a carrier group in the region).

     https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-us-prepared-israel-defend-iranian-attack/story?id=114393069
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     2 October 2024 at 1:38 pm

     I just heard a guy say on RNZ that "dozens" of the ballistic missiles got through Israel's incredibly expensive Iron Dome system today.

     Surely Israel knows that Iran has serious quantities of military hardware. Biden will be telling them to back off retaliation and stick to fighting Hezbollah and Hamas.

     A guy on Al Jazeera this morning said that Israel's economy is tanking.

     From The Guardian today: “Moody’s cut the country’s credit rating two notches to “Baa1” last week and warned of a drop to ‘junk’ if the current heightened tensions with Hezbollah turned into a full-scale conflict.”

     Well done Bibi.
     • Belladonna 4.2.1

       2 October 2024 at 5:25 pm

       Do you actually have source for this? I've not seen reports from anyone (apart from Iranian state TV) that a significant number of missiles hit (let alone hit the targets they were directed towards).

       Al Jazeera (my go-to source for Middle Eastern news), doesn't mention any significant hit rate.
       • Bearded Git 4.2.1.1

         2 October 2024 at 6:15 pm

         As I said a guy on RNZ said "dozens got through". However, this BBC article explains that the Iron Dome is "up to 90% effective".

         https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20385306

         If you saw the words "up to 90% discount" in a shop you would assume 50% discount. But lets be generous and say the ID is 80% effective.

         That means that 36 missiles got through (20%x180). Three dozen.

         Remember these missiles take only 12 minutes from Iran to Israel. I suggest you try not to swallow the IDF propaganda Bella.
         • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.1

           2 October 2024 at 6:35 pm

           So no link to any source. The equivalent to 'a bloke in the pub said'

           Your maths appears to be ignoring the fact that US sources have confirmed that they shot down Iranian missiles, as well as the Israeli Iron Dome

           Do try not to swallow Iranian propaganda, BG.

           You’ll note that I’ve sourced from Al Jazeera – hardly likely to be IDF propaganda.
           • Bearded Git 4.2.1.1.1.1

             2 October 2024 at 7:07 pm

             Next you will be telling me that Netanyahu is right to dismiss the two-state solution.
             • Belladonna …

               2 October 2024 at 7:33 pm

               Just like the support of both Iran and Hamas for the two state solution /sarc/

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Non-governmental_supporters_of_a_two-state_solution
     • joe90 4.2.2

       2 October 2024 at 8:43 pm

       Dude's day job is researching nuclear strategy and missile technology at the Oslo Nuclear Project .

       @FRHoffmann1

       To me, this video appears to be the clearest example of a substantial number of ballistic missile projectiles getting through. Angle, speed, & impact are indicative of incoming warheads. Also, note the horizontal spread of the impact points, which is indicative of a CEP. 1/2

       https://x.com/FRHoffmann1/status/1841169498197402021

       @FRHoffmann1

       I count what appear to be 4 intercepts in this video and 10+ impacts.

       https://x.com/FRHoffmann1/status/1841172303737942077
       • Bearded Git 4.2.2.1

         2 October 2024 at 8:53 pm

         Cheers Joe…I watched those videos a few times on El Jazeera and it certainly looked like quite a few were hitting the ground unscathed. Whether they hit any important targets is another thing….but to be honest I'm not sure that was the reason Iran fired them.

         Both Iranian attacks on Israel so far seem to have been something of a warning. If they were serious they could have done much more damage.

         From the Net, which is never wrong:

         "US Air Force Gen. Kenneth McKenzie told Congress in 2023 that Iran had “over 3,000” ballistic missiles, according to a report this year from the Iran Watch website at the Wisconsin Project"
         • joe90 4.2.2.1.1

           2 October 2024 at 9:16 pm

           but to be honest I'm not sure that was the reason Iran fired them.

           You target densely populated areas with ballistic missiles to kill civilians.
           • Graeme 4.2.2.1.1.1

             2 October 2024 at 10:42 pm

             I saw an interpretation that the impacts were into open ground, and Iron Dome left them alone to concentrate on missiles that were going to hit the defended target.
     • Scud 4.2.3

       3 October 2024 at 12:20 am

       Iron Drome isn't designed to intercept ICBM's and IRBM's.

       David's Sling & the Arrow ABM System are designed to intercept ICBM's and IRBM's.

       The way the Iranians are use their various Missiles, is saturation attack, design to overload the IDF Missile Defence to the point of failure ie the Radar/ Tracking system goes bugger this shit I'm shutting down or degrades to a point it can't shoot every incoming Missile.

       https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David%27s_Sling&wprov=rarw1

       https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(missile_family)
       • Bearded Git 4.2.3.1

         3 October 2024 at 10:05 am

         Good point Scud…now you mention it I have heard that before. (Dome not Drome)
5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

   2 October 2024 at 8:43 am

   Something most who use our wonderful supermarket duopoly, already knew..

   New Zealand groceries more expensive than Australia, UK and Ireland – research

   A new study has confirmed what many New Zealand shoppers already believed – supermarket prices are higher here than overseas.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/529553/new-zealand-groceries-more-expensive-than-australia-uk-and-ireland-research

   And yet one of the duopoly had wanted even less choice, as it moved to strengthen its domination…..

   Earlier this year the country's biggest supermarket operator agreed to bring its North and South Island divisions together to create a national co-operative.

   The boards of Foodstuffs North and South Island divisions currently operate separately and run a number of well-known brands including New World, Pak'n'Save and Four Square.

   The Commerce Commission threw a spanner into that….

   On Tuesday, the Commerce Commission declined the proposal saying it would substantially lessen competition.

   Foodstuffs North Island chief executive Chris Quin said the merger would have lowered costs and improved operational support for the company.

   And, FFS, does he believe his own lies ?

   He told Midday Report it also would have brought grocery prices down.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/529512/commerce-commission-blocks-foodstuffs-north-and-south-island-merger
   • Jimmy 5.1

     2 October 2024 at 11:46 am

     The commerce commission should have never allowed the merger of Countdown and Foodtown and Woolworths.

     They must have at some stage also allowed Foodstuffs Auckland and Foodstuffs Wellington to merge as I remember our company had three separate accounts for Foodstuffs around 13 years ago.
     • Belladonna 5.1.1

       2 October 2024 at 1:07 pm

       I agree. The creation of the duopoly has entrenched their position, and enabled them to shut out smaller competition, bully suppliers, and raise prices for consumers.

       The 'competition' is artificial at best (as is the petrol company model).
     • Ad 5.1.2

       2 October 2024 at 2:50 pm

       In Wanaka you have the choice of New World downtown or New World 3 Parks.

       Plus 2 tiny 4 Square's.

       It is a near-total lock.
       • Jimmy 5.1.2.1

         2 October 2024 at 3:01 pm

         That's a monopoly!
       • Belladonna 5.1.2.2

         2 October 2024 at 5:31 pm

         Wairoa just has New World.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/hawkes-bay/129325309/the-small-town-with-a-new-17m-supermarket

         I suspect that the locals would rather have a cheaper supermarket, and lower prices….
         • Graeme 5.1.2.2.1

           3 October 2024 at 11:58 am

           It's not that long ago (20 yrs) that everyone in Queenstown would go down to Invercargill once a month / fortnight to do a shop at the large city supermarkets. along with that would be clothes, new cars, furniture, the lawyer and accountant, and dentist. All were much cheaper in town. Whiteware and carpets however were an aberration and much better buying at home with hotel / motel refits (tourists flooding the room…) and the massive number of new builds. Made for a rather different town and way of life.

           Once faxes and email came about the Invercargill supermarkets did a courier service which was very popular and we didn't to go down as much.

           Eventually Queenstown became big enough to get the big box supermarkets, we went from 2 x 4 Square, to a New World, to the lot, in 10 years. along with that came some of the other national retailers, and the money that used to be spent in Invercargill got spent at home and we started to get a city economy.

           Lack of perceived retail competition in small towns is a function of the town's size, people adapt, and there's ways around it. In the Wairoa case I suspect most of the business would go to Napier, it's only 120km (we're 200km from Invercargill) so driving or courier is easy.

           One of the insights I've got from one of our local supermarket operators is how hard it's been for the local supermarket to break into the established trade with Invercaargill, even when pricing became the same. I'd presume there'd be a similar thing going on in the Wairoa retail market.
           • Belladonna 5.1.2.2.1.1

             3 October 2024 at 2:38 pm

             Yes, much of the weekly shop goes to either Gisborne or Napier.

             Of course, both are dependent on roading infrastructure (the area was badly hit by Gabrielle)

             But, of course, the bigger issue is that shopping at either requires access to a car – which is not a given in a pretty economically deprived area.
6. SPC 6

   2 October 2024 at 9:56 am

   Use this site, when checking media stories on farming.

   https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/livestock-numbers/

   Despite linking to it, this article goes on to mislead by saying that conversion to forestry is the reason for lower stock numbers. The line from Fed Farmers in seeking changes to government policy.

   It is only the main reason in some areas.

   In some regions it is sheep to dairy (esp Canterbury/Southland), and some beef to dairy (esp Waikato).

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/rural/350432833/declining-sheep-numbers-last-straw-smithfield-plant
   • SPC 6.1

     2 October 2024 at 10:07 am

     Land use for forestry has not gone up in the past 20 years.

     https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/agricultural-and-horticultural-land-use
7. mikesh 7

   2 October 2024 at 10:03 am

   It seems cost of living difficulties are being caused by excessive executive remuneration.

   https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350436094/how-rise-manager-driving-cost-living?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_1&cx_artPos=1&utm_source=localised_module#cxrecs_s

   Presumably not by an absence of CGTs or wealth taxes etc..
8. SPC 8

   2 October 2024 at 10:39 am

   UN and 2006 Resolution 1701 reprise in 2024.

   https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155221

   Spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric issued a statement

   “An all-out war must be avoided in Lebanon at all costs, and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Lebanon must be respected”,

   Mr. Guterres appealed to international donors to provide urgent support for the $426 million humanitarian appeal launched in Beirut.

   The UN Special Coordinator for Lebanon Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert issued a statement

   "Every rocket and missile fired, every bomb dropped and every ground raid conducted pull the parties further from the ⁠vision set out in Security Council resolution 1701 (2006) and the conditions needed for the safe return of civilians on both sides of the Blue Line.

   This cycle of violence will not end well – for anyone. A sliver of opportunity remains for diplomacy to succeed. The question now is whether it will be seized or squandered."

   Two different factors – Israel leaving Lebanon (likely in weeks) and an end to Gaza IDF presence in Gaza (dependent on some agreement).

   The question is whether Hezbollah would resume attacks on Israel after they left Lebanon, if there is no agreement as per Gaza.

   https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155196
9. SPC 9

   2 October 2024 at 11:53 am

   A lot of the media organisations have “experts” who insist Israel has to respond to the "180" IRBM fired off by Iran.

   Given there were no strikes (being over an hour), the reasoning for this is a bit like Trump logic – gotta hit back, this is unsound some/a lot of the time.
10. SPC 10

    2 October 2024 at 1:54 pm

    3 posts this week, insisting that an MP be made to apologise by his party and media for a retweet (since deleted).

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/

    It seems that there is a determination to infer there is an unacceptable free speech for a public person, or a requirement that some views be untenable for the foreign affairs spokesperson of a political party.

    Or a journalist (SBS), in Oz

    https://thejewishindependent.com.au/hate-speech-complaint-against-high-profile-broadcaster

    https://consortiumnews.com/2024/08/28/acclaimed-journalist-charged-with-anti-semitism/

    The criticism, that state of Israel violence begets violence, can be read by anyone subscribing to Haaretz.

    It is probably celebrated by Jews worldwide as a sign of their vibrant political culture.

    Too strong a wine for "others"?
11. Belladonna 11

    2 October 2024 at 5:58 pm

    It seems that there is a determination to infer there is an unacceptable free speech for a public person, or a requirement that some views be untenable for the foreign affairs spokesperson of a political party.

    Well, adopting this attitude towards comments from politicians will certainly reduce the 'gotcha' media stories, not to mention the number of posts on TS.
    • SPC 11.1

      2 October 2024 at 6:13 pm

      No, free speech is not diminished by a questioning of censorship.
      • Belladonna 11.1.1

        2 October 2024 at 6:31 pm

        I can't work out whether you:

        • Think all commentary is valid under 'free speech', and nothing should be censored.
        • Think that all commentary should be subject to censorship ('free speech' is subject to limits)
        • Think that commentary you approve of is valid as 'free speech', and anything you don't agree with should be censored.

        Or have some other opinion altogether.
        • SPC 11.1.1.1

          2 October 2024 at 7:09 pm

          I can't work out whether you:

          Of course not. You've just confused yourself after trying to make a silly response to my post.
12. tWig 12

    3 October 2024 at 1:02 pm

    SPC, this is the specific kiwiblog column address, otherwise it just gets the blog top post.

    Did the deleted tweet use the actual word "justifiable" or in context, was it more accurately, "understandable"?

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS